OT: money and happiness

[Climb01742]

what follows is a big generalization, i admit. but i think it is basically true, and is at least useful for a philosophical discussion.

there are two basic ways to live your life, financially, and try to find happiness (or contentment or peace or whatever word works for you):

1. keep your expenses low, keep your material desires in check, and try to find something you love doing that meets those expenses.

2. let your material desires have their way, let expenses rise accordingly, and try to earn enough to cover them all, and do what you gonna do, job-wise, to pull it off.

ok, let's suppose (hypothetically, of course) that you chose train #2 and as this train speeds along, there are some juicy, fun stops but more and more you find that who you are and what you do for a living just keep getting farther and farther apart.

can you get off train #2? is jumping off wise? is a conscience more of a pain than it's worth? are even ski bums unhappy sometimes? why does business eat away at our souls? is peace of mind an illusion? is it a middle-class conceit to even ask questions like this? why do i wish i was riding instead of sitting here at the office?

and finally, why oh why did i drink so much caffiene this morning?

[Sandy]

1. It is difficult to get off of a speeding train.

2. While on the train, the one driving the train is normally too busy, trying to keep the train going fast, to focus long enough on how his or her life would be if he or she decided to get off the speeding train and simply go on a slow sailboat.

3. Sometimes it is almost too late in life to realize that you might be happier on a slow sailboat than on a speeding train, especially if you really love slow sailboats and don't particularly like fast trains.

4. Slow down and think about slow sailboats and speeding trains. Take a couple of days away from the speeding train, and think and talk about what would really make you happy- the train or the sailboat.

5. I wish I had done the above much earlier in life.

6. My speeding train was my wholesale meat business.

7. My slow sailboat was dogs and cycling and family.

8. I wish I had put the brakes on the speeding train much earlier in life.




Slow Sailboat Sandy

[quattro]

Climb, you raise quite valid questions, especially at this time of year. Here we are two days from Thanksgiving when we will kick back and give thanks for all that we have. Putting aside the material things in life I think we focus on the things that bring us true happiness, family, health, friends, success to name but a few and in my opinion the most important. Soon we turn to the next BIG holiday season, Christmas/Chanukah and material things in a big way. After the train slowed down to focus on life's real rewards it picks up steam quickly and gets right back on the material track, is it just the way we are conditioned to a life cycle, at least here in the U.S.? How do you get off this train? I'm going to spend some time thinking about this over the Thanksgiving break, while I'm out riding or sitting by a crackling fire. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

[David Kirk]

"Money won't buy you happiness but it will buy you a big pink Cadillac to drive around in while looking for it".

Lou Reed




I love Lou and I hope his tongue was in his cheek for this one.

Dave

[J.Greene]

As much as I'd like to be a full time bike bum (not a pejorative term atmo) I've got 3 kids who have their own needs and hobbies. I've got a well paying career that allows my wife to stay home and school our kids. I have a home that truly feels like home. Lastly, I can ride whatever bikes I want. While I may not be a perfect match for what I do, I'm happy that I'm successful and the people who rely on me (clients and family) are happy and successful also. I've chosen to find my happiness close by and within.

JG

[keno]

not to be forgotten is that wherever you go, whatever you jump on to or off of, you are still there. A change of address is not a change of mind or attitude. It never ceases to amaze me how different people confronted with similar events, whether what we might call good or bad events, have such different attitudes towards them. Happiness and unhappiness are both things we work at achieving.

kenotes

[CNY rider]

I"m a Train #1 kind of guy at heart, but right now I"m on a train that can move blindingly fast at times.

I've found that those around you will often keep pushing the train faster and faster, and if you don't speak up and take control, you will lose out on life.

You're in a similar position at your job as I am vis a vis revenue generation: You're like a big steam engine that can churn out the work and revenue, which goes to support and further the finances of many other people, not just you. Naturally, those along for the ride (in my case an armada of hospital administrators, as well as the actual people who do useful work like my nurses, secretaries etc.) want to see you barreling down the tracks at blinding speed. Their livelihood depends on it. They want to go to meetings in comfy meeting rooms where they sit in big comfy chairs with other stuffed shirts and show big charts of how much revenue is up this year, and how wonderful a job that implies they're doing. In reality, that involves flogging the people who do the real production ever harder.

The key thing to remember is that YOU are the one responsible not only for driving that team forward, but also for ensuring you are happy with life in general. They won't stop the train and ask if you're enjoying the ride; you have to make that assesment periodically and cause change to happen if you decide you are not satisfied.

Thanks for the stimulating post!

[Tom]

Enjoy Youself: Album is East Nashville Skyline

Enjoy yourself, it's later then you think
Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly as a wink
Enjoy yourself, Enjoy yourself
It's later then you think

You work and work
For years and years
You're always on the go
You never take a minute off
To busy making dough
Someday you say, you'll have your fun
When you're a millionaire
Imagine all the fun you'll have
In some old rocking-chair

Enjoy yourself, it's later then you think
Enjoy yourself, while you'er still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly as a wink
Enjoy yourself, Enjoy yourself
It's later than you think

You're gonna take that ocean trip
No matter come what may
You got your reservations
But you just can't get away
Next year for sure you'll see the world
You'll really get around
But how far can you travel
When you're six feet underground?

Enjoy yourself, it's later then you think
Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly a as wink
Enjoy yourself, Enjoy yourself
It's later then you think

Get out and see the world...

You worry when the weather's cold
You worry when it's hot
You worry when you're doing well
You worry when you're doing not
It's worry, worry all of the time
You don't know how to laugh
They'll think of something funny
When they write your epitaph

Enjoy yourself, it's later then you think
Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly as wink
Enjoy yourself, Enjoy yourself
It's later then you think



Me? I wanted to be a woodworker until I noticed they generally don't have all their fingers. I wanted to work outside until I worked outside and grew an appreciation for central heating. So, I wound up in track 2. One of these days I'm going to look at what I have, what time I got left, do the calculus and be able to say "So long, suckers!" My plan is to have all day, every day, knowing I'm going to die before the money runs out.

[malcolm]

I don't think you will ever hear of anyone on their death bed saying man I wish I had worked more.

[Chad Engle]

malcolm I don't think you will ever hear of anyone on their death bed saying man I wish I had worked more.
Today 08:56 AM

+1

Great post. This forum is the best.

[Kevan]

would be a whole lot better off if the individual strived to limit their personal possessions to what can be carried on his back.

Or bicycle, I'm open to some frivolous acquisitions.

[Ray]

I know you only presented two choices for the sake of discussion and simplicity, but I reject them as the only two choices. Given that very few people end up totally on either one of those trains, it's all about finding the right balance for YOU.

While I've never been a total bum (on the street, homeless, etc) or in a super high-earning crazy intense career, I've been a ski-bum and I've had times where the JOB took waaaay too much emphasis for my comfort level. Came to find I didn't like either extreme. When I was ski-bumming, I was mentally relaxed and was having a BLAST on one level, I also was keenly aware that there were deeper questions to life than whether Rossignol or K2 worked better in a particular granular pattern of corn snow. But that's they type of thing that tended to occupy most of the discussion amongst my fellow bums. In short, I was happy on one level but I knew I was missing out on a lot of stuff that was important (to me - not necessarily to anyone else).

When my kids were little my career was chugging along in a pretty high gear - just coming into my own, realizing how good I could be at what I did, getting more and more opportunities, etc. That was also really stimulating and fun one one level, but I saw it starting to eat my life and I knew that wasn't what I wanted either. Time with my wife and kids was so much more important and I was starting to make too many compromises in that respect. Again, I was happy on one level but I knew I was missing out on a lot of stuff that was important (again, maybe only to me). So I geared back just a bit, found a pace I was comfortable with, and accepted the somewhat reduced opportunities as a tradeoff for something more important.

In the last couple years, I've been lucky and skilled enough (there's plenty of both involved) to quit my job, start my own consulting practice, and now I have some of the best of both worlds. I'm able to work a fair amount, but on my own terms and schedule (and at home) and have found some really fun and interesting work. But I also have LOTS MORE time to spend with my wife and our kids in their last years at home (now winding down with our youngest a senior in HS). And I can ride and pursue other hobbies just about as much as I want to. And now that UNLIMITED RIDING is sort of available to me...... I ride about as much as I always have. 4,000 - 6,000 miles per year seem to be what I do. My schedule allows me to be pickier about when I ride, but I don't really ride any more than I used to - it's just easier and less stressful to fit it in. And, interestingly, I find I still operate day to day with roughly the same level of stress and worry and relaxation that I used to. The basic personal chemistry didn't really change much if at all through the various changes in circumstance - I think we're wired the way we're wired and we find a way to make it work at that level because it's really the only option we have.

Sounds like you're sort of stuck at one extreme and the other extreme sounds good to you at the moment. But let me suggest you probably wouldn't like it much at all. Your demons would still be your demons - your angels would still be your angels. Only the scenery would change. But there might be a happy medium that could provide a better match for your desires these days. Or you may be exactly where you need to be.

-Ray

[stevep]

simplify, climb.
and take all the extra shiite from my basement.
s

[OldDog]

Opt for #1. Having lots of stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be. Ya still gotta be happy and in the end, "stuff" doesn't necesssarly do it.

No. 2 is cool, only if you have the means, and can still be happy. Some do it, but they are few. I think too many ride that train and in the end they fall off and get run over. Today it is way too easy to get buried in debt fast, for the sake of having "stuff". So 10 -20 years down the road you are no longer happy with your job but you are sunk in debt.

My sister owns an rv dealership. We find it amazing the young couples who are up to their ars with college loans, home loans, car/truck loans, credit cards and then come ino the dealership to buy a trendy 5th wheel camper to the tune of 40 - 50K or more. Their credit app. tells ya they cannot swing it, but the banks approve the loans anyway. Go figure. I'm sure they are happy with their stuff, but in the end they will need to ride that train to pay for it. Hope no one falls off.

[BoulderGeek]

This question has been at the crux of my life for the last ten years.

I never really "made it" financially, but was doing OK before the tech crapout.

Now, I feel owned by my stuff. I want to simplify, but don't want to liquidate all to do it.

I want to live in Europe, ride, ski and take time to savor the Bordeaux and chevre.

Turning 40 next year. If not now, when?

Money certainly doesn't buy happiness. Yet, who among us would have even one Serotta without it?

[Fat Robert]

i'm a #1 guy. i just don't get #2. but i'm a transcendence through suffering sort. i would have made a good medieval monk. intervals on a trainer give me more pleasure than a richard sachs frame, for instance. augustine gives me more to chew on than a new tv. i don't know that i'm any happier than a #2 -- my daemon just wants different stuff, and isn't any more satisfied with what it has than mr. #2's is with what it has. matt damon is probbaly ok, but the whole ben affleck thing will prolly mar him for life.

[catulle]

"Prosperity is the best protector of principle". Mark Twain.

Like most things in life, there is more gray than black or white. I believe you must pay the dues for living at this stage of civilization and sacrifice some of your youth providing for a better future. Just my interpretation of Sartre, atmo. Within the framework of time, you do what you need to do (Praxis) in order to have a meaningful life (Becoming). Which is pretty much what I've done with my life. Thus, I can now spend way too much time at the Serotta Forum. Cheers.

[davids]

It's more than a middle-class conceit to ask these questions. I'd also like to think that there are more than the two options you posit.

Our relationships to 'stuff' is complex - At its (grossly oversimplified) worst, we are consumerist automatons, buying what we're told in a doomed effort to find meaning in objects. At its idealistic best, we own what adds to our lives and/or what brings us lasting satisfaction and joy. Reality, of course, lies somewhere in between.

I'm certainly aware of the constant consumerist pressures we live with in this market-driven society. And I strive to not only be a thoughtful consumer, but a minimalist. But I season that with my appreciation of quality, craft, and even artfulness.

I am content with a small, urban condominium in (what the real estate industry calls) an up-and-coming neighborhood. (Although I'd like a second bathroom for my teenage daughter....) I am content with my 6- and 7-year old cars, and with driving them for several more years until such time as the cost/benefit equation tips towards replacement. And I hope to replace each of them with vehicles that have a smaller 'footprint' on this planet.

But I want custom-made suits. And exquisitely designed and crafted bicycles. I want to eat interesting, high-quality food, both in my home and when I dine out. When the time comes to buy new cars, I want to choose high-quality, high-value vehicles meeting my precise desires. I want high fidelity reproduction of recorded music. There are things that I care enough about to devote them my energy - my consideration and my scarce dollars. These things bring me joy because of the needs & desires they fulfill, and because of what they are.

The “needs and desires” is easier to understand - Although it’s a mystery to me as to why I care about suits, music, bicycles, etc. and not (for example) furniture, power tools, or golf clubs. I honestly don’t get very introspective about why I love cycling. I’m simply grateful that I do.

As far as “what they are” – This is where my relationship with the stuff I care about gets interesting. For me, the first stage of this has always been asking the question, “What is the best X?” Once I’ve discovered what the best is, I begin asking the interesting question, “Why is this the best X?” The answers to this question have to do with the nature and source of quality and excellence. The best 'stuff' embodies these qualities, and can be downright inspirational.

I’m also learning more & more that things are a lot less important and meaningful than relationships and community. I am trying to be a more ‘present’ husband, father, friend, boss, etc… because that’s where life truly is. I am trying to find more time to focus on my relationships and my communities. I get even more joy out of those than from my stuff.

…all this is tangential to your core questions, but I think they relate. I tend more towards your first option. I have found work that I (often) enjoy. It’s not incredibly lucrative but, financially, I am comfortable and secure. Because I have to think about how I spend my money, I find that the things I buy are fairly accurate reflections of my values and desires. For example, I spend the equivalent of three MeiVicis a year on my daughter’s education. …Yep, that feels about right.

Do I worry about money? Yes. But I hear the same worries from friends who make three times what I make, and from friends who make half of what I do. It’s completely obvious to me that money cannot buy happiness. I’ve seen no correlation between a person’s wealth and a person’s worth.

And again – Things can be great, and bring me some satisfaction and happiness. But people are better, atmo.

[alancw3]

climb i was where you are back in 1989. vp of finance for a big company big money and very unhappy. decided to walk away from a career and a marriage all in one year, although i did keep a great relationship with my daugther (only child). anyway, what i can tell you from my experience is that there is no utopia! i have a great life, but sometimes i have to admit i wish i was still makng the big bucks! life is a trade off. you have to be willing to accept the negatives as well as the positives to your decisions. go with your heart and be wiliing to live with your decision!

[manet]

i'm a bum.
my opinions are solely based on other's thoughts and inventions.
i'll gladly take your money.

[Fat Robert]

yup

give unto manet and food insecure, don't need no sinecure, just got to make my banks for sure robert

[Climb01742]

years ago i lived in manhattan. on second ave, between 60th and 61st, there used to be a tennis shop. i walked by it alot. there was this guy who worked there, stringing rackets. he looked at be in his 50s or 60s. always wore a tennis shirt and nylon wind pants and sneakers. and every single time i walked by the shop, he had this peaceful, small smile.

there's a idea called "right occupation", and i've always felt i saw in that dude a guy who had found his right occupation.

but it's more complex than that. i agree with ray that we're each probably wired a certain way and our life circumstances probably aren't gonna change that wiring. i feel both liberated and trapped at times by money and my job. the simpler our needs, the more "freedom" we have, i think. the greater our resources, the more "choices" we have. it's the middle space where things get complicated.

someone once told me about changing jobs...all that changes is the address. i feel like i want to change something in my life. i just can't figure out what it is. sorry for rambling, and thanks for reading.

[Ginger]

Climb,

Even on beautiful fresh pasture cows think what's on the other side of the fence is more desirable.

Ginger

[bostondrunk]

This question has been at the crux of my life for the last ten years.

I never really "made it" financially, but was doing OK before the tech crapout.

Now, I feel owned by my stuff. I want to simplify, but don't want to liquidate all to do it.

I want to live in Europe, ride, ski and take time to savor the Bordeaux and chevre.

Turning 40 next year. If not now, when?

Money certainly doesn't buy happiness. Yet, who among us would have even one Serotta without it?

+1
Would love a career change from the crappy IT industry, but to quit work, go back to school for 4-6 years, student loans......ugghhh...
Climb, when I win the lottery, I'll hire you full time to run my Colnago outlet store.... :beer:

[Climb01742]

Climb, when I win the lottery, I'll hire you full time to run my Colnago outlet store.... :beer:

and when i win the lottery, i'll gladly take that job...if we can carry pegs, too. :banana:

[bostondrunk]

and when i win the lottery, i'll gladly take that job...if we can carry pegs, too. :banana:

Only if Dario promises to keep his shirt on when he visits.

[Ti Designs]

Even on beautiful fresh pasture cows think what's on the other side of the fence is more desirable.

They're cows, they don't understand financial hardship. I'm a divorced bike bum, ain't nothing greener on my side of the fence.

Climb, stick a toe in the water before you jump in with both feet. What kind of budget can you live on and still be happy? A few days ago we were talking about $4500 wheels, would riding on an old set of MA40s bother you? There's nothing fun about wanting something and knowing that you can't afford it - trust me on that one...

[OldDog]

Even Cows need a change...

[Ken Robb]

Without getting into my personal situation I have this comment: I have been selling real estate in one of the most expensive areas in the USA for 34 years. I have dealt with and know a lot of very wealthy people. My observation is that if a person's main goal is acquiring more stuff there is never enough to make them happy. If a person loves what they do and it happens to bring them great financial rewards they can be very happy.

[fstrthnu]

"Do what you love."

My Father

Fstrthnu

[bostondrunk]

"Do what you love."

My Father

Fstrthnu


I'd like to, but not sure if Meg Ryan feels the same way about me...
:banana: :beer:

[sspielman]

"Do what you love."

My Father

Fstrthnu

I'll never make it as a gigolo......

[manet]

.

[sspielman]

I just want everybody to know what a great pleasure it is to be in the company of the participants on the Forum whose minds work in the same degenerative way as my own....truly touching....

[obtuse]

"Do what you love."

My Father

Fstrthnu


yeah but if you suck at it you can always come home.

my father

[fstrthnu]

yeah but if you suck at it you can always come home.

my father

"Do what you love and yet dont' suck at, as long as it is legal and morally correct"

Fstrthnu

[sspielman]

yeah but if you suck at it you can always come home.

my father


...which surely beats never being sent anywhere in the first place......

[Ray]

"Do what you love."
Noble sentiment, but joking aside, that can be a tough get. I used to joke that I ended up in urban/transportation planning because the Celtics didn't need a short white guard who couldn't jump, dribble, or shoot and because the Stones seemed to have a surplus of lead guitarists when I was trying to fall backwards into a career. But it was only half joking. Not all of us can make it doing what we truly love. These days, I would add that Discovery doesn't need a middle aged tourist who doesn't even LIKE riding fast.

But if you can't do what you really love, sometimes you can learn to really LIKE something that you find you're good at because it lets you make the most of your abilities and makes you feel somewhat useful. I seem to be a good generalist and can synthesize a lot of seemingly unrelated information into something that makes sense. I don't LOVE urban planning (I don't even think Michael Dukakis really loves the stuff), but I find that the way my mind works makes me pretty good at it. And when I'm helping a bunch of volunteer planning commissioners make sense of the issues they're facing in their town, I end up enjoying it because I can do it well, it helps them solve their problems, they appreciate it, I feel like I've accomplished something, etc.

So, do what you love if you're one of the lucky few, but if you can't quite pull if off, in the immortal words of Steven Stills, "love the one you're with".

-Ray

[Climb01742]

or making peace (or at least a truce) with the compromises your job entails. advertising is an attempt to balance commerce with creativity, or money with meaning. i really do deeply believe in the power that communication can have. i hunger to create something great, something meaningful, something powerful, something that touches people, or at the very least, something kinda neat and cool and maybe makes people smile. getting something like any of the above done in advertising is often, um, well, er, a struggle.

but on the other hand...it pays well...i'm wearing sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt, i haven't shaved in 10 days and basically my job is playing with digital crayons, paper and scissors. half of me says quit b!tchin' and the other half says don't give up and become a thurber cartoon.

[catulle]

or making peace (or at least a truce) with the compromises your job entails. advertising is an attempt to balance commerce with creativity, or money with meaning. i really do deeply believe in the power that communication can have. i hunger to create something great, something meaningful, something powerful, something that touches people, or at the very least, something kinda neat and cool and maybe makes people smile. getting something like any of the above done in advertising is often, um, well, er, a struggle.

but on the other hand...it pays well...i'm wearing sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt, i haven't shaved in 10 days and basically my job is playing with digital crayons, paper and scissors. half of me says quit b!tchin' and the other half says don't give up and become a thurber cartoon.

Create a wonderful campaign for my daughter's foundation, and don't charge her for it. She's 17, she graduates from high-school this year, and for the past five years she has been doing amazing work helping underprivileged children. She can provide you with references from Cambridge, people she's brought to Central America to work with her. If helping hungry children is not meaningful, then I don't know what is.

[Climb01742]

Create a wonderful campaign for my daughter's foundation, and don't charge her for it. She's 17, she graduates from high-school this year, and for the past five years she has been doing amazing work helping underprivileged children. She can provide you with references from Cambridge, people she's brought to Central America to work with her. If helping hungry children is not meaningful, then I don't know what is.

congrats to your daughter (and you for raising a child like her.) pro bono work is something we do. we're working for a children's hospital right now. sick children break your heart.

[weisan]

Climb-0, you are on to something. Keep lookin'...

[cpg]

Become a framebuilder. You can be happy AND make lots of money! :)

Curt

[Climb01742]

Become a framebuilder. You can be happy AND make lots of money! :)

Curt

yeah, you guys all drive porsches, right? and sip cristal while working, yes?

[stevep]

Become a framebuilder. You can be happy AND make lots of money! :)

Curt

well, you get a frame for the cost of the tubing and lugs anyway.'

[Simon Q]

not to be forgotten is that wherever you go, whatever you jump on to or off of, you are still there. A change of address is not a change of mind or attitude. It never ceases to amaze me how different people confronted with similar events, whether what we might call good or bad events, have such different attitudes towards them. Happiness and unhappiness are both things we work at achieving.

kenotes

This is a great inisght Keno.

You choose how you deal with the present moment. You either love it or at least accept it no matter what is happening. Bhuddists say that you are not what is happening in your life, but how you deal with it - anything can happen and you can remain at peace. We have spent time at a paeditatric hospital more than I would care for and to see the courage and grace that kids and their families deal with the worst possible circumstances is truly humbling and inspirational - unsung heroes. I also see other people almost catatonic becuase they are worried about how they are going to get a new 4WD or renovate their house to keep up with their freinds.

There is no right or wrong, you just need to find a balance that gives you the most peace. Recent events have forced me to completely re-evaluate what is really important to me. I used to be very career and money driven. Not any more.


Great thread Climb and I agree that this forum rocks.

[Simon Q]

congrats to your daughter (and you for raising a child like her.) pro bono work is something we do. we're working for a children's hospital right now. sick children break your heart.

...like nothing else can IMO.

[fierte_poser]

Life lessons, ATMO:

1. There are only two measure of money: none and not enough. Unless you're flat broke, you're in the second category.

2. The only cure for materialism is generosity (give the money, or the stuff, away).

3. It's Not About Me. cf. Max Lucado, "It's Not About Me." excerpt (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/148/story_14844_1.html)

[landshark_98]

I jumped off the train. Over 50% pay cut to run a non-profit that I believe in. Now the pay is far from destitute; in fact it should be plenty (moving from Seattle to Eugene helped). I'm not the leading the starving artist life but I'm not globe trotting and I sell a bike(s) before getting a new one.

The positive trade-offs - I spend my time doing something I believe in and I'm happier for for it. My son appreciates the significance of what I do and that its not just about money (sometimes I'm sure he regrets the realties of that!) Life is saner. blue jeans rather than suits. Rides in midday rather than 6 am. I have time to ride.

The negatives: I do miss the money and what it allowed. We stress more over the relative lack of money. We aren't saving as much for retirement as I would like. The transition from free spending to thriftiness is hard and hasn't fully happened.

Would I do it again. Absolutely. Is it perfect? no. Is it a reasonable compromise. I think so. Next month, year, two years I may think differently. I think a key might be to live in the present and appreciate its positives, recognize the compromises and realize you can change those dynamics and probably will at least a few times in life.

Good thought provoking post. Now back to work!

Greg

[Kevin]

Never become a slave to your possessions.

Kevin

[1centaur]

Climb:

Sounds to me like you need to change SOMETHING, not necessarily a BIG thing. Doing your job and riding/buying bikes has proven not to be all you want, so do something else as well, taking a little away from job and bikes. Do something for others that's NOT part of your job. Do something creative (book, screenplay, art) that's just for you. Become an expert on something you're interested in and start a blog about it.

You felt a little of this before Mt. Washington 2. I'd say it's an enduring issue. I don't think you're the quit your job and find Nirvana kind of guy. I think incremental changes will get the job done. Balance is key, and you sound not too far off from that goal.

BTW, if everybody quit the fast track society would fall apart, medicine would not advance, technology would stagnate, etc. The irony is that dropping out is a luxury largely supported by fast trackers.

[Climb01742]

what's hard is sifting through the chafe of small daily frustrations, trying to find the real kernel of discontent. i'm a lucky guy in many ways. i wish i could be more at peace with the many comfortable "mattresses" i have but i keep feeling that damn pea somewhere. sorry to mix imagery. i very much appreciate the many thoughtful, personal replies. free will is cool, it's just not always easy knowing where and how to use it.

i'm picking up a gorgeous new rig tomorrow and i feel both gratitude to my life for affording it, and hypocracy for whining about it.

[bostondrunk]

i'm picking up a gorgeous new rig tomorrow and i feel both gratitude to my life for affording it, and hypocracy for whining about it.

Uh....you can't say something like that without telling us what ya getting!!

[obtuse]

Uh....you can't say something like that without telling us what ya getting!!


the porsche 959 of bicycles.

obtuse

[saab2000]

Do what you love????

I love bikes a lot more than flying I can assure all of you of that. But I don't do bikes other than buy used ones.

Maybe I'd be happier. I would love to try my hand at bike building and design, but I have no idea what trail and front center are needed to make a killer race bike.

I think I should do bikes though, cuz they are a lot better than airplanes. Both are nowadays on the "Work more, earn less" train.........

[rePhil]

So many of the posts hit home with me. I bailed from the fast moving train. I no longer believed in certain things I had to do to be competitive, and I was tired of dealing with immoral people. I just couldn't do it any longer.
My early sacrifices were rewarded monetarily, but at the cost of missing too much at home.
My income took a huge hit, around 70% when I switched from a photographer to a Special needs teacher, but I feel fulfilled.
It helps that the kids are grown. While we can no longer afford to travel as often as we would like, the trips we take are very special. I am fortunate to have a wife who is happy with our modest lifestyle. It makes me smile when she says she is just happy that I am home.
While I rode the fast train I carried a bookmark that says:
"The most important things on life aren't things" It's tattered from all the places its been, but it has finally found a resting spot at home.
On the other hand I am thankful for the current fast trackers as they allowed me to bail.

[bcm119]

Doing what you love is a tough one... theres certain things I'd never do as a career because it would ruin the passion I have for them. My path so far has been to make a living doing something I feel is important...a cliche, for sure. But it really helps me through the drudgery, and the details, and all the petty crap having a job involves to know that I'm contributing towards something good. Unfortunately it doesn't pay too well, but I'm convinced I'd have the same desires for more/better things no matter how much money I make. I'm pretty sure I'd be less happy if I did something I didn't feel strongly about but got a big paycheck. I don't really need much stuff anyway- I'm a minimalist and I like small living spaces. I'm sick of the rain though.

[Climb01742]

Uh....you can't say something like that without telling us what ya getting!!

pictures to come. pix will do it more justice than words.

[Len J]

I've wresteled with these same questions pretty activly forthe last several years. Let me tell you some of the things I think I've learned:

1.) There is no perfect one thing. I started with a silly assumption that if I only found that one perfect thing to do....my pasion....that I'd be happy.....that's crap, it doesn't exist.

2.) I am not one dimensional....there are many facets of me that need to be fed...the analytical side, the creative side the giving side, the husband, the father, the friend, the part that needs to give back to the community......hence I need to identify these important facets and feed each of them.......but I don't need to feed them all from one place.........(see #1.) above.

3.) So I've gradually evolved to a place where I work at something that I'm really good at, and I volunteer on the weekends, and I write at night during the week, and I'm enjoying learning photography....and I...well you get the idea.

So Climb...look for what the lack is, and see if you can "rebalance" to "feed the need".

Finally...it's not an all or nothing proposition......it never is.

Just my .02

Len

[catulle]

Whatever you do, Climb, remember to provide for old age. As a matter of fact, this is a great economic time for investing your money profitably. I hope you live to enjoy the fruits of your work as a young man.

[dbrk]

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Tolkien put this in the voice of Gandalf (in _The Fellowship_, Chapter 2).

I don't think we can separate time from money in our world (or likely in any other). I think less about the work or the money and far more about how I am spending the time. Sometimes it's work, sometimes it's more like play because the activity has no object other than itself. We all have to do things we don't "like" to do and we all have to make enough of a living. I've been happy with almost nothing and happy with more than enough. I've been miserable in times both rich and poor but in every case it's come down to how I am spending my time...and with whom. Life's the company you keep. Better make that great company, whether it's your own self or anyone else.

dbrk

[onekgguy]

What a great thread...thanks, Climb.

Life is all about perspective to me. I'll be elegible to retire in the spring but I have no intention of doing so. I'm surrounded by those I work with who can't wait until they no longer have to come to work. I'm at a loss to understand why they're in such a hurry to wish this part of their life away. They have their family, their health and their career...what's the hurry? I figure that if they can't be happy in this period of their lives it's doubtful they'll find happiness in retirement. Maybe I'm misreading them and that they're just unhappy at work.

I don't know that I'm on either train...maybe a bit of both. My job requires that I be there for a specific period of time and it can be high stress but once I leave I don't think much about it. I'm just a worker bee and happy to be so.

Outside my job I have a fairly simple life. I love spending time with my family, riding, walking our pups and putzing in the yard. I need to volunteer more of my time and that's been on my mind lately.

This Harry Chapin song seems appropriate for this thread...

Pretzel Man
by Harry Chapin

He's the little pretzel man, he's got his twisted pretzel hands
He's got him a pretzel wife, that he's loved all his pretzel life
And he's got himself a pretzel girl, that they both brought into their world
And watch them all twist pretzels by hand, by hand
And if only we all lived in Pretzel Land

Six days a week, when he wakes up
She will fill his coffee cup
Six days a week he is a working man
He wheels his wagon to the park
He sells pretzels 'till it's dark
But that's the only life that he understands
He's his own man

He's the little pretzel man, he's got his twisted pretzel hands
He's got that pretzel wife, that he's loved all his pretzel life
And he's got himself a pretzel girl, that they both brought into their world
But watch them all twist pretzels by hand, by hand
And if only we all lived in Pretzel Land

On Sunday, when they go to church
In the seventh pew they perch
They listen to his sermon and they believe
They're grateful for the food they ate
So they put their money in a plate
They've heard of hungry children and they grieve (they believe)

So we watch them all twist pretzels by hand, by hand
And if only we all lived in Pretzel Land
If only we could all be like that man
If only we all lived in Pretzel , only we all lived in Pretzel, only we all lived in Pretzel ...Land

Kevin

[Len J]

[QUOTE=dbrk Life's the company you keep. Better make that great company, whether it's your own self or anyone else.

dbrk[/QUOTE]


+1

Len

[LONE RIDER]

I know we all have thought what it would be like to win the lottery and be set for life. I know I have. I've thought about buying the houses on both sides of us and making a mega-estate (at lease for us). I've thought of the cars I could buy, the bikes I could build (seven Custom Ti's with a different color for each day of the week - yawn,.... it's Wednesday, lets pull out the white one...). I'd like to travel to the north and spend a month when the leaves change, stay in a lodge in Vermont during the winter and eat waffles with real maple syrup and real butter every morning, ride every morning and work my wood in the afternoon, do the long ride on Sunday with the group that splits off.

But all of this pales to what would be the biggest rush............giving it away. OK, not all of it but enough to make a difference. I fantasize about observing a young couple in a restaurant and anonymously sending them a bottle of wine and paying for their meal, about pulling up to the movie ticket window and laying out the green and telling the guy "this is for the next 20 tickets", or talking to the professor about the student who is exemplary but is struggling financially and being the secret benefactor who covers the books and tuition and WTH while I'm at it spring for the meal ticket. Anyway, these things make me feel good when I think about them, as for the material stuff .. I really only need one bike - a good one, but only one (OK, two, one MTB and one road) and to tell you the truth, the thought of having a lot of stuff just wears on me - I should have been a monk.

[Climb01742]

wow. the depth and quality of thought here is wonderful. i know these touchy-feely threads aren't everyone's cup of tea. i appreciate the tolerance of those who see this as way OT. this is helpful to me. we lose perspective at times. we get so deep into our little world or day, and things seem darker than they are. the experiences and perspectives of fellow forum-pals helps a lot. group hugs aren't my thing but maybe i should consider an exception. ;)

[A.L.Breguet]

<

[Simon Q]

I know we all have thought what it would be like to win the lottery and be set for life. I know I have. I've thought about buying the houses on both sides of us and making a mega-estate (at lease for us). I've thought of the cars I could buy, the bikes I could build (seven Custom Ti's with a different color for each day of the week - yawn,.... it's Wednesday, lets pull out the white one...). I'd like to travel to the north and spend a month when the leaves change, stay in a lodge in Vermont during the winter and eat waffles with real maple syrup and real butter every morning, ride every morning and work my wood in the afternoon, do the long ride on Sunday with the group that splits off.

But all of this pales to what would be the biggest rush............giving it away. OK, not all of it but enough to make a difference. I fantasize about observing a young couple in a restaurant and anonymously sending them a bottle of wine and paying for their meal, about pulling up to the movie ticket window and laying out the green and telling the guy "this is for the next 20 tickets", or talking to the professor about the student who is exemplary but is struggling financially and being the secret benefactor who covers the books and tuition and WTH while I'm at it spring for the meal ticket. Anyway, these things make me feel good when I think about them, as for the material stuff .. I really only need one bike - a good one, but only one (OK, two, one MTB and one road) and to tell you the truth, the thought of having a lot of stuff just wears on me - I should have been a monk.

100%. I dream of being sufficiently wealthy so that my family has all the opportunities that money provides and I did not have to work (well, not a full time job) so that I could volunteer more of my time for causes that have meaning to me. We give away 10% of our net income but in my dream everything that we didn't need after we were comfortable would be put to charitable uses. That is my dream and I will get there one day.

[obtuse]

i need to devote all of myself to whatever the "thing" is that i do.....often at the expense of other things in my life. it's my nature and it made me an ok bike racer when i had nothing else to do except race bikes and an ok business guy and an awful bike rider now that i devote eighty hours a week to that....the long and the short of it is that i could not stop working everyday and unless i'm dedicating one hundred percent of my efforts towards something i have virtually no interest or time for it.....

i'm doing much better about compartmentalizing my life a bit and spending more time with the people i love and doing the things that give me enjoyment but its tough....

as for the happiness and money thing, i have no idea. i like what i do, i'm reasonably competent at it and i can afford most of what i want and all of what i need. sure, if you work it out i make less money per hour than your average dish washer- but the benefits are great! and sometimes it all pans out.....i've got an awesome bike to use this weekend courtesy of my pal climb.....sometimes happiness is surrounding yourself with generous friends with impeccable taste!

obtuse

[atmo]

awesome atmo:
sometimes happiness is surrounding yourself with generous friends with impeccable taste!

a great thought with which to roll into this thanksgiving weekend atmo.

[davids]

...sometimes happiness is surrounding yourself with generous friends with impeccable taste!

obtuse
And sometimes happiness is being generous to a friend, impeccable taste or not.

On that note, Happy Thanksgiving to all - obtuse & climb deserving happiness as much as anyone I can think of.

[Louis]

I'm simplifying terribly, and in the process not doing him justice, but in his book "Man's Search for Meaning" one of the points Viktor Frankl makes is that the important thing in life is not getting to a particular destination, but the journey itself (more pessimistic people might say struggle, not journey, but I think that's wrong).

Frankl was a psychiatrist who spent some years as a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp, and although he did it the hard way, got a very useful perspective on life that can be generalized to many of us.

Louis

[atmo]

a cycling friend of mine was killed by an inattentive driver.
at the eulogy, when i stood up to offer a few pithy thoughts,
all i could do was wonder aloud about folks who rush to get
anywhere, because they are already there atmo.

[Samster]

i think many of us say we're on train 1 but act like we're on train 2. just sayin...

[Lifelover]

what follows is a big generalization, i admit. but i think it is basically true, and is at least useful for a philosophical discussion.

there are two basic ways to live your life, financially, and try to find happiness (or contentment or peace or whatever word works for you):

1. keep your expenses low, keep your material desires in check, and try to find something you love doing that meets those expenses.

2. let your material desires have their way, let expenses rise accordingly, and try to earn enough to cover them all, and do what you gonna do, job-wise, to pull it off.

ok, let's suppose (hypothetically, of course) that you chose train #2 and as this train speeds along, there are some juicy, fun stops but more and more you find that who you are and what you do for a living just keep getting farther and farther apart.

can you get off train #2? is jumping off wise? is a conscience more of a pain than it's worth? are even ski bums unhappy sometimes? why does business eat away at our souls? is peace of mind an illusion? is it a middle-class conceit to even ask questions like this? why do i wish i was riding instead of sitting here at the office?

and finally, why oh why did i drink so much caffiene this morning?


I'm coming to the party late and without reading any responses so I hope I'm not too redundant.


In a country as prosperous as the USA happiness and money are not linked in any way.

You can seek happiness and wealth completely independently of each other. Just place happiness higher on the priority list.


If you focus on seeking happiness your wealth will rise to a level best suited for your well being.

[SayHey]

Like many have said ... great thread.

I've given this some thought over the last year or so. It seems for many of us, happiness seems to be the goal and the question is, 'What role does money play in achieving that state?'. Almost all of us have met people with lots of money yet are unhappy. Conversely, others with much less money seem to be happy or content. I think once your basic needs are met, happiness or your level of contentment or satisfaction is determined by other factors or perspectives ... not money.

I think what most of us really seek is to lead an excellent life with meaning and satisfaction (which I think is more than happiness that can come and go). There's a professor that did quite a bit of research about what really creates satisfaction and joy in life and he termed it "Flow". Flow comes when we are challenged and have the skills to meet the challenge. If we have great challenges, but don't have the skills we simply experience anxiety. If we have great skills, but no challenge we're bored. The key is finding meaningful challenges in life and developing and applying the skills to meet them. Maintaining balance in our life (which is a never-ending challenge) is also an important element.

Lastly, when we're gone from this earth, we'd like to have made a difference. We want our lives to have counted for something important. And important doesn't necessarily mean a Nobel or Pulitzer prize, but rather making a difference in people's lives close to you. As someone said earlier, people on their deathbed rarely if ever say, 'I wished I would have worked more'. Usually it's, 'I wish I would have spent more time with this person or given more to this relationship'. As dbrk said, it's about how we spend our time and who we spend it with.

Being grateful for what you have helps too .... Happy Thanksgiving

[soulspinner]

Weisan as usual is wise...

[Ti Designs]

i think many of us say we're on train 1 but act like we're on train 2. just sayin...

And some of us are on the platform running after any train we can catch.

Seriously, I've always followed my heart in what I've done. I got out of the defense contracting gig to work in a bike shop, there's a 5:1 salary drop there, but at the end of the day I can feel good about what I'm doing. If that doesn't cut it, I'll be out on my bike coaching new riders for a few hours the next day. The money isn't the issue for me, it's about what I'm doing - at least I'd like to think that.

We live in a material world, it's pounded into our heads from every direction. not having the means to take part in that is depressing as hell. If the other 11 months of the year don't point that out, this last one certainly does. What are your objects of desire? What are you getting your SO this year? Do I need carbon wheels on my go-to-Starbucks bike? Sometimes I let these things get to me. My life is about what I do and what I can do, not what I can afford. Lots of people travel some place nice to ride their bikes, I happen to think where I ride all the time is nice (I'm either blind, stupid or lucky). Most people dream of owning things they'll never use to the extent they were made. I can honestly say I make the most of what I have.

Ahhh crap, the grass really is greener on this side of the mall...

[L84dinr]

I've been reading the book lately. It is an OK read. Anyway the author is expounding on Lisa and her travails being a Simpson. The author relates a scene in one of the shows where-in Bart and Lisa have attended a comic book convention. Lisa has purchased Casper the friendly Ghost and a Richie Rich comic books. On the way home in the car Bart theorizes that Casper is really Richie Richs ghost and is wondering how RR died. Lisa replies "Perhaps he realized how hollow the pursuit of money is and killed himself." I laughed.

This topic came up at a strange time. I have been self employed for many years. For the longest time it had been easy; I had my own time for getting to the track and racing my motorcycles. Now that the children are growing up, I have time to be a parent. Both my parents worked, and me and my brudder were latch key kids. No biggee, just the way it was. Well I have been struggling with work. Tired of making a paycheck, want to let some one else take the mental stress and I can just be a body to do the work. I have a company trying to recruit me; and have been debating the move. But after reading this thread it has got me too thinking about life with my family... And I am in a better place family wise than if i was to take a job for more money, and loose my time with my kids. Something to think about.

Y'all take care and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Simon Q]

If anyone is interested in a book that helps you to step back and see the bigger picture, I cannot recommend A New Earth by Ekhart Tolle highly enough. I have read it several times and return to it if I feel that I am getting out of balance. I have also lent it to some friends, several of whom found it life changing. It is not a motivational book, it is not a cult or religeon and there is nothing else to buy. Rather, the information it provides is intended to help you work out what your life purpose is and to work out life, in as much as that is possible.

[victoryfactory]

We all play the lottery together in my office. (2 bucks each per week)
Every Monday morning, when we realize that we lost again, I try to cheer
up the troops with various platitudes like "maybe next week"
or the famous " money can't buy you happiness"
To which my co-worker always replies:
Maybe so, but I'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable.

seriously though, I firmly believe, as others have said above, that happiness and wealth
are not connected in any way.
I'll take health over wealth any day...

VF, I would like to be a millionaire some day. Right now, I'm a thousandaire

[catulle]

I have a very good friend in Ecuador with whom I used to shoot doves and ducks just about every week of the year for seven years. He is a bit older than me, a tall guy of British descent and phlegmatic demeanor, a lawyer and supreme court judge. He loves beer and good Scotch but his wife, a high-level executive, won't let him indulge so he must be creative in order to please himself. Of course, on the way back from our shooting, we'd stop by some on the tiny miserable towns on the way to the city and sit by the grubby curb to drink beer and sip Scotch from a flask.

My good friend used to get the blues every so often, which never surprised me as he was married to the high-level executive lady, and we'd discuss his condition. One good day, evidently having finally reached catharsis, he said, "You know, I've come to the realization that if I ever won the lottery I'd get rid of my depression once for all, really..." We both laughed heartily.

Oh well, just two dudes drinking beer and sipping Scotch by the side of the road.

[keno]

is a highly personal issue.

Some see it as for spending, some as for giving, some so they can say "go screw", some so if tomorrow comes it's paid for, some for emergencies and the unknown, uninsured medical expenses, some for filling the unfillable hole inside, etc., etc., etc., and most for some combination.

I think that not until a person understands the meaning of money to himself can he begin to consider how it relates to his unhappiness. Incidentally, I think that most of us are thinking about unhappiness when we explore happiness. It is usually only then that we think of happiness. When truly happy, I suspect that few think about unhappiness.

And then there is happiness (and its un). neither, in my experience, something acquired and kept. They come and go, often without notice and until noticing is unavoidable, and for no apparent reason. With that, though, I must say that it is far easier to put ourselves in situations in which happiness is a remote possibility. Some work very hard at that.

I do not think that attempting to create the equation linking money and happiness will result in other than better understanding of what makes one tick, if considered properly. Perhaps having money simply eliminates worry of its lack and something to be unhappy about, which leaves us with all the other things to be considered when thinking about happiness.

I see my personal bottom line in the following way. Within me is my true north vector, the essential me, and there is a second vector which is the walking around me, the thoughts, the actions, the feelings, and so forth. I see my ongoing job as working to reduce the angle between those two vectors, and I've found as I have done that, I seem to be less at odds with myself, less unhappy.

keno

[Ti-Boy]

I believe by adulthood (if not sooner) we are all wired to be happy or unhappy people. There are certainly grey areas between the two extremes. External forces do nothing more than provide the immediate impetus for the emotion. Some will win the second prize in the lottery and be very happy. Others will win second prize and be miserable for not winning first prize despite the windfall. It's in our individual make-up.

I had a job one summer during college working in a machine shop pulling down a drill press 8 hours a day. The money was very, very good a the time, but I was as miserable as could be. I left work Friday already fretting that Monday would arrive in three days. The buying power of the good pay did not come close to off setting the misery of the job. I fell in love with mountain biking on a $350 rigid bike. Now I ride a bike that cost more than 10 times that amount. The joy from being on the bike came from being on a bike, not the bike I was (am) on.

Decide what truly makes you happy and earn enough to do that. Working for more than what is necessary to pursue happy producing activity is like continuing to pour water into an already full cup.

[1centaur]

I believe by adulthood (if not sooner) we are all wired to be happy or unhappy people.

Exactly why I tell my son he should try to marry a naturally happy person. When you meet them it's wonderful, and to be married to one you love...will save you from a lot of difficult times.

[Serotta PETE]

:confused: :confused: what frame is that you are building????

Become a framebuilder. You can be happy AND make lots of money! :)

Curt

[Serotta PETE]

Well said>>>>> THANKS

is a highly personal issue.

Some see it as for spending, some as for giving, some so they can say "go screw", some so if tomorrow comes it's paid for, some for emergencies and the unknown, uninsured medical expenses, some for filling the unfillable hole inside, etc., etc., etc., and most for some combination.

I think that not until a person understands the meaning of money to himself can he begin to consider how it relates to his unhappiness. Incidentally, I think that most of us are thinking about unhappiness when we explore happiness. It is usually only then that we think of happiness. When truly happy, I suspect that few think about unhappiness.

And then there is happiness (and its un). neither, in my experience, something acquired and kept. They come and go, often without notice and until noticing is unavoidable, and for no apparent reason. With that, though, I must say that it is far easier to put ourselves in situations in which happiness is a remote possibility. Some work very hard at that.

I do not think that attempting to create the equation linking money and happiness will result in other than better understanding of what makes one tick, if considered properly. Perhaps having money simply eliminates worry of its lack and something to be unhappy about, which leaves us with all the other things to be considered when thinking about happiness.

I see my personal bottom line in the following way. Within me is my true north vector, the essential me, and there is a second vector which is the walking around me, the thoughts, the actions, the feelings, and so forth. I see my ongoing job as working to reduce the angle between those two vectors, and I've found as I have done that, I seem to be less at odds with myself, less unhappy.

keno

[Cary Ford]

I've experienced happiness without money and happiness with it.

I prefer the latter.

[Fat Robert]

just heard a feature on "the people's pharmacy" public radio show on the topic of happiness

some dude argues from his research that happiness comes from:

strong social relationships

making decisions on your "gut" feeling, rather than "talking yourself into it"

ok

my strong social relationships are with my wife and my dog. once every eight or twelve weeks i'll ride with my mp teammates and we are mp together. that's it, and that's rewarding for me.

for you, strong social relationships might be having a circle of highly competitive, driven lawyers, who, like you, put in 100 hour weeks because they love the social interaction that comes from being part of that team as they rise to the challenge of that task. in this frame, its not the legal work that you love, its that the legal work gives you the peers/social relationships at work that make you happy. likewise, you may want peers who love power, guns, easy sex, lots of cash, and breaking the law -- so, the mafia is your route to true bliss....

also according to this cat, people who think very carefully and spend long amounts of time weighing decisions and then make the one that it most logical are less happy with their decisions than those who go with their unexplained first feeling. take that for as much or as little as its worth. if you can swing the c-50, but you start thinking that its the more prudent thing to just get the trek...get the friggin c-50. you'll be happy.

so how does money fit in? eff if i know. i know that a modest income gives me the life that makes me happy. i know that if my sister took a 200% pay cut to live on what i'm making, she'd flip. i know that if i made what she makes, i wouldn't have the time to ride my bike, read, think, play with the mutt, and i'd have to deal with a bunch of people at work every day that i couldn't stand. she loves what she does because she likes her peers, loves the interactions that come with the work, and likes being able to have the things that she has.

what the eff am i writing here?

what fstrthnu said -- do what you love. if it don't fit, don't force it. and buy the dream bike. it'll make you happy.