OT: High end speaker cables?

[Gsinill]

Since we seem to have some audio buffs here.

So far we only set up a few Sonos speakers in our new house after we moved about 2 years ago. Just enough for casual listening...

It's finally time to dig out the old stereo to set up a dedicated listening area.
My wife agreed to put it into our front room, with the only condition that cables and wiring are not exposed all over the place.
Plan is to run everything from the walls down to the basement and then cross over along the basement ceiling to get from one side of the FR to the other.

Unfortunately, my existing speaker cables (Transparent Musicwave Biwire) are only 15' long and I need at least 20'.
I am not up-to-date on what is out there now and also don't want to break the bank (again) just for speaker cables.
Any advice?

[Ken Robb]

Since we seem to have some audio buffs here.

So far we only set up a few Sonos speakers in our new house after we moved about 2 years ago. Just enough for casual listening...

It's finally time to dig out the old stereo to set up a dedicated listening area.
My wife agreed to put it into our front room, with the only condition that cables and wiring are not exposed all over the place.
Plan is to run everything from the walls down to the basement and then cross over along the basement ceiling to get from one side of the FR to the other.

Unfortunately, my existing speaker cables (Transparent Musicwave Biwire) are only 15' long and I need at least 20'.
I am not up-to-date on what is out there now and also don't want to break the bank (again) just for speaker cables.
Any advice?

First I must say that in all my travels the only place I ever heard the term "front room" was in Chicagoland and it brings back my youth. Elsewhere we might have parlors, living room, sitting rooms but nothing as descriptive as our "front room". :) I think thickish 10-12 gauge lamp cord will suffice unless you have a really good system and ears. Many audiophiles will disagree.

[bjf]

You might want to check out The Cable Company. Lots of their stuff is very pricey, but some isn't. I have been very happy with their advice.

[Spdntrxi]

I use a bunch of MIT stuff.. lower midline stuff and even that is pricy when you add up 7.2 system... monoprice to the rear though... those runs are too long

[parris]

I don't have first hand experience with them but I've heard good things about Blue Jeans Cable. You may also want to look at Monoprice.

[rkhatibi]

I don't have first hand experience with them but I've heard good things about Blue Jeans Cable. You may also want to look at Monoprice.

Would also recommend Blue Jeans.

[FierteTi52]

I used 12 gauge 4 conductor in wall fire rated cable to bi wire the system in my finished basement. This is an example of the cable style I used although 14 gauge would be plenty:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4037&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2YfVlI3-3wIV0hx9Ch09uguDEAQYASABEgI0W_D_BwE

[oliver1850]

I have never gone for the high end audiophile wiring Kool-Aid. For long runs I'd use 12 gauge wire, 14 should be fine for shorter runs. Something like this, but this may not be the best deal on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speaker-Wire-Cable-50-100-250ft-500ft-In-Wall-CL2-Bulk-Gauge-12-14-16-18-AWG-Lot/332895542479?hash=item4d821edccf:m:mWz2YSi4L-o_y8O0np_DwEA:rk:5:pf:0

[Peter P.]

16ga. common speaker wire is good for runs up to 100ft. There may be NFPA or NEC codes requiring other, certified wire for running through walls, floors, and ceilings, for fire rating safety but other than that, save your money for bike parts.

[Gummee]

This is hearsay, but that bulk extension cable wire you can buy at Home Depot/Lowes/etc is supposed to sound pretty good.

I don't remember where I read that, so check it for yourself

M

[pobrien]

I would do some research to satisfy yourself as to which route to go. I have been very pleased with generic speaker cable on reasonably nice stereo kit.

[cdimattio]

Can't say I have tried multiple products and suppliers side by side, but another vote for Blue Jeans Cable...

[toytech]

Most all of the claims made by high end speaker wire manufacturers go against basic electrical theory. If the wire is made with decent copper and adequate sized it will work. 14-16 ga. is fine for most, more strands is better (finer wire strands) for a given gauge. Some years ago there was a blind test done with expensive wires tested against coat hanger. Guess what won :p

[mtechnica]

DIY with some industrial cables. I’m using 4c 14awg shielded Allen Bradley servo cables that I got for free, guarantee the wires inside these are higher quality than 99% of audiophile snake oil cables.

[joosttx]

This is amazing. I know you not going this far but its crazy to see the fringe.


https://robbreport.com/gear/electronics/slideshow/9-most-wildly-expensive-speaker-cables-available/

[72gmc]

^^^^ love the aesthetics reference in that Robb Report intro. The most audio-obsessed people I've known favor the exposed wire across wall and/or ceiling aesthetic, usually with the "that's just for now" caveat.

[toytech]

The real silliness is high end power cables lol.

[William]

You don't have to go crazy...

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

It’s been awhile since I last wrote a technical article on cables. Lately we’ve been getting hit with the common question “what speaker wire gauge should I use” or "How thick should they be"? American wire gauge (AWG) is a system of numerical designations of wire diameters where the thicker and less resistive the wire is, the lower the gauge number. More often than not, we’ve seen Audiophiles choose a higher gauge esoteric wire over a lower gauge generic zip cord cable simply because they were sold some marketing nonsense from the exotic cable vendor that their wire will yield higher dynamics and better Mojo from your system than standard generic cable.

Only the truth will set you free, so its time to clear your head of marketing slogans and get a good dose of reality about the single most important aspect of speaker cables – RESISTANCE....






W.

[William]

My local Audio Engineer/Vintage restoration tech buddy just made me these...10 AWG. Work great and didn't break the bank with crazy pricing either.





W.

[Ozz]

My local Audio Engineer/Vintage restoration tech buddy just made me these...10 AWG. Work great and didn't break the bank with crazy pricing either.

W.

pure copper or copper coated aluminum strands?

[spacemen3]

Unfortunately, my existing speaker cables (Transparent Musicwave Biwire) are only 15' long and I need at least 20'.
I am not up-to-date on what is out there now and also don't want to break the bank (again) just for speaker cables.

Won't Transparent take your old cables as trade-in on longer versions of the same or the upgrades? Of course, nothing Transparent is cheap. :) I've been pleased with Tributaries and WireWorld cables. Otherwise, Blue Jeans might be the best bet for reasonable biwire cables.

[Plum Hill]

On that wire resistance chart - remember the current has to Ft too the speaker and back to the amplifier. For example, if you need 20 feet of cable to reach the speaker, that’s really 40 feet of wire.

For some nice reading: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm .

Years ago I was the foreman in charge of “light and sound” at a new church. I was looking forward to the audio system. When I asked the audio engineer what kind of fancy wire we’d be using, he replied nothing fancy, just big. We used regular THHN insulated copper building wire in sizes up to, I believe, #3 AWG. That size is rated for 100 amps. In this case is was to lessen resistance.

I’m a firm believer that most of the audiophile beliefs are nothing more than snake oil. Anyone that sends $4K on a speaker cable is not going to tell you it didn’t make a difference. Same thing with non-UL listed receptacles that sell for $375 when a $10 Hubbel will do the same (especially when they install it on antiquated knob and tube wiring).

Personally, I have Fulton Brown cable, biwired. This was the cable that really started all the hubbub. I believe it’s #10 AWG, very fine strands, thick (brown) insulation.
I got it when I purchased my Fulton speakers. A bit pricey then but nothing like stuff these days.
Fulton had a belief the cable runs had to be a certain length or a multiple of that length.

[Gsinill]

DIY with some industrial cables. I’m using 4c 14awg shielded Allen Bradley servo cables that I got for free, guarantee the wires inside these are higher quality than 99% of audiophile snake oil cables.

I'll give this a try. Just got 30m of 4C 16 gauge for $50 on the Bay. AWG 14 might be borderline for my 8 Ohm speakers and 20ft., at least according to the table William posted, but it's worth a try.

Won't Transparent take your old cables as trade-in on longer versions of the same or the upgrades? Of course, nothing Transparent is cheap. :) I've been pleased with Tributaries and WireWorld cables. Otherwise, Blue Jeans might be the best bet for reasonable biwire cables.

They probably would but I am sure the difference for the upgrade would still be way more than what I am willing to pay.
Just not as much into it anymore which makes it hard to justify that kind of expense.
Might just put the old ones up for sale on eBay.



Thanks all for your input!

[Steve in SLO]

This is amazing. I know you not going this far but its crazy to see the fringe.


https://robbreport.com/gear/electronics/slideshow/9-most-wildly-expensive-speaker-cables-available/

Wow!
I would hate to run my vacuum into this stuff…

[DarkStar]

On that wire resistance chart - remember the current has to Ft too the speaker and back to the amplifier. For example, if you need 20 feet of cable to reach the speaker, that’s really 40 feet of wire.

For some nice reading: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm .

Years ago I was the foreman in charge of “light and sound” at a new church. I was looking forward to the audio system. When I asked the audio engineer what kind of fancy wire we’d be using, he replied nothing fancy, just big. We used regular THHN insulated copper building wire in sizes up to, I believe, #3 AWG. That size is rated for 100 amps. In this case is was to lessen resistance.

I’m a firm believer that most of the audiophile beliefs are nothing more than snake oil. Anyone that sends $4K on a speaker cable is not going to tell you it didn’t make a difference. Same thing with non-UL listed receptacles that sell for $375 when a $10 Hubbel will do the same (especially when they install it on antiquated knob and tube wiring).

Personally, I have Fulton Brown cable, biwired. This was the cable that really started all the hubbub. I believe it’s #10 AWG, very fine strands, thick (brown) insulation.
I got it when I purchased my Fulton speakers. A bit pricey then but nothing like stuff these days.
Fulton had a belief the cable runs had to be a certain length or a multiple of that length.
57" and a fraction more.

[93KgBike]

Artisinal electrons are a better investment.

[kingpin75s]

Most all of the claims made by high end speaker wire manufacturers go against basic electrical theory. If the wire is made with decent copper and adequate sized it will work. 14-16 ga. is fine for most, more strands is better (finer wire strands) for a given gauge. Some years ago there was a blind test done with expensive wires tested against coat hanger. Guess what won :p

Simple theory is for simple equations. You will need to broaden your view to understand audio cables. What you prescribe is fine for a basic stereo. If the system approaches HiFi in any way, your recommendations will not provide a cable transparent enough for someone to enjoy their system to its full potential.

Lets just start with your comment regarding more strands and finer wire. Skin effect. Something you do not want in a transparent cable.

I have access to a lot of high end cables because we have a great audio community where I live. I have a very clear understanding of what cables provide for transparency or coloration in a system and I have strong preferences on how the cables I run in my system are built.

My preference is for 5x9s pure silver ribbon cables twisted in an air dielectric and run in positive/negative helical pairs or a star quad configuration. I do run some pure copper ribbon as well but right now only between my DAC and Pre. Gauge of ribbon and number of strands vary by cable purpose. Speakers lower gauge and star quad. Interconnects higher gauge and helical pairs. Shielded or unshielded depending on purpose. All built with high quality low mass connectors. Xhadow, Furutech and WBT connectors are my preferences.

Most of the cables in my system are built by Sain Line Systems.

Post the control conditions for the coat hanger test if you please. That should be a fun read.

[kingpin75s]

DIY with some industrial cables. I’m using 4c 14awg shielded Allen Bradley servo cables that I got for free, guarantee the wires inside these are higher quality than 99% of audiophile snake oil cables.

While I am disappointed that many cable makers do not use better materials end to end at the prices charged, your comment is pure hyperbole. Most, not all, audiophile cables have higher margins than I believe are warranted. However, most audiophile cables are made with quality materials even if silver plated copper is used in far more expensive cables that it should be IMHO. The other end of the spectrum is things like 7x9s pure copper or silver which I am not even sure is anything more than marketing. If you have a HiFi system, cables are anything but snake oil. You simply do not hear what your system is capable of without cables being a thoughtful part of your system.

I like my audio cables the same way I like my bikes, hand made and of high quality materials combined with proven designs.

Nothing wrong with DIY cables and good ones can be made at a reasonable cost, however high end connectors and quality materials absolutely make a difference. Proportional spending is a key here. Your cables should reflect the quality of your system. My % on cables vs. components is higher than most for sure but my cables may never change even if components do.

Some, not many, expensive cables actually have thousands of dollars of materials in them, not to mention days of maker labor.

It is a tough market and very polarizing because there is not always value proportional to price, but there are cables out there that are worth what is charged even if the prices are significant. Again, I prefer and support makers and will pass on the big brands.

[kingpin75s]

On that wire resistance chart - remember the current has to Ft too the speaker and back to the amplifier. For example, if you need 20 feet of cable to reach the speaker, that’s really 40 feet of wire.

For some nice reading: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm .

Years ago I was the foreman in charge of “light and sound” at a new church. I was looking forward to the audio system. When I asked the audio engineer what kind of fancy wire we’d be using, he replied nothing fancy, just big. We used regular THHN insulated copper building wire in sizes up to, I believe, #3 AWG. That size is rated for 100 amps. In this case is was to lessen resistance.

I’m a firm believer that most of the audiophile beliefs are nothing more than snake oil. Anyone that sends $4K on a speaker cable is not going to tell you it didn’t make a difference. Same thing with non-UL listed receptacles that sell for $375 when a $10 Hubbel will do the same (especially when they install it on antiquated knob and tube wiring).

Personally, I have Fulton Brown cable, biwired. This was the cable that really started all the hubbub. I believe it’s #10 AWG, very fine strands, thick (brown) insulation.
I got it when I purchased my Fulton speakers. A bit pricey then but nothing like stuff these days.
Fulton had a belief the cable runs had to be a certain length or a multiple of that length.

It's a good thing many of us can rely on scientific method and testing across a broad spectrum of design instead of forming opinions based on limited and in this case seemingly dated experience.

I have had the good fortune to test many speaker cables from cheap to $6K a pair. It's funny how I can hear clear differences across the designs before I spent a dime. The idea that audiophiles generally mostly buy cables without auditioning first and then hear what they paid for is a hollow argument.

The Fulton Brown cables you run IIRC were some of the original audiophile cables back in the day and are 10 or 12ga with silver plating. High inductance, low resistance and probably has good bass and not much else.

[kingpin75s]

The real silliness is high end power cables lol.

Simply not the case. They make a difference in everything from amps to DACs.

Considerations:

1. I would spend on speaker cables and ICs before power cables
2. I buy reference speaker cables and ICs but more modest power cables

Power cables just need to be high inductance and low resistance. They also benefit from quality connectors that limit vibrations and that is where more expensive ones separate themselves from cheaper ones.

[Ken Robb]

The cables in my good system are laterally stiff and vertically compliant but the cables in my bedroom system are just heavy gas pipe with no snap at all. :)

[kingpin75s]

Audio cables are an area of personal interest to me. I have access to a variety of systems and cables and know makers in the industry. I have no skin in the market but I have a strong understanding of it from both sides.

I am happy to share what I have learned from direct experience and debate any challenges people have in what I know is a polarizing market.

I will also try and share any tips I have that anyone can benefit from regardless of their HiFi appetite.

Thought I would share this photo as I just put in my first run of new speaker cables and am using a simple jumper until I have my second set for a bi-wire configuration.

As you can see I have removed the stock jumper plates that come with speakers that have 2 sets of posts. The plates are generally think and not great signal conductors. Replace them with some quality 12ga wire and run your single run of cables to the top set of posts allowing the jumpers to feed the bass.

Try this on your system if you have plates and see if you hear a difference. If your system is transparent enough you will, if the upstream is colored YMMV.

[kingpin75s]

The cables in my good system are laterally stiff and vertically compliant but the cables in my bedroom system are just heavy gas pipe with no snap at all. :)

Funny, I was just discussing the stiffness of my terminations (pic above)

Stiff where it needs to be on the connections and compliant enough to manipulate, like a great bike ;)

[kingpin75s]

I don't have first hand experience with them but I've heard good things about Blue Jeans Cable. You may also want to look at Monoprice.

Monoprice is good stuff for inexpensive cables.

I use them for my subwoofer signal cables.

[kingpin75s]

This is amazing. I know you not going this far but its crazy to see the fringe.

https://robbreport.com/gear/electronics/slideshow/9-most-wildly-expensive-speaker-cables-available/

Interesting list. Familiar with most but a couple I was not aware of.

I am a big believer in the approach and build quality (good scientific theory, true innovations, no gimmicks, proven designs and more $ in materials and labor than any other brand I am aware of) of Sain Line Cables, however Christopher Sain of Sain Line does speak well of some of the better known brands and he has far more breadth on the subject than I do.

If I were looking at this list, and this list is far beyond my means or interest, I would be interested in testing the ones from Stealth and Shunyata most. Also, Nordost just because their design philosophy does not really resonate with me and want to understand how good their solve is.

Stuff like this really begs the question on when marginal gains kicks in hard because there is always a price point sweet spot/range and the highest end is not in it.

Like a good red wine that you can find from $8 to $80, I would put a set of $8K speaker cables up against any $80K set from this list and not be too surprised if it was only different, not better.

[geordanh]

Popcorn emoticon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[geordanh]

For starters what does coloration mean?

I gave up on high end audio equipment after having some b&w 802s for a bit just to get it all out of my system. Decided it’s all just a bit much and ditched it all for a nice Bluetooth speaker from naim. Most music sounds like **** on a proper hi fi system. Listening to dianna krall over and over gets old quick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[William]

Junk ------>/ Quality components that make varying but real degrees of difference----- >/ Snake oil



So far it seems like the progression I'm seeing in audio (and many things) run through the above progression. Where the lines are is certainly up for debate, but there are lines.








W.

[mcteague]

Hearing is a funny thing as we tend to detect differences where none exist. Check out this video. You don't need to watch it all, the variability of human hearing is discussed early on. As I have mentioned many times, what really counts in home audio are speakers, recordings and rooms. All else has very little, if any, effect on what you hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Tim

[djg]

Wow!
I would hate to run my vacuum into this stuff…

How many people with $80,000 speaker cables run their own vacuum cleaner?

[pobrien]

Hearing is a funny thing as we tend to detect differences where none exist. Check out this video. You don't need to watch it all, the variability of human hearing is discussed early on. As I have mentioned many times, what really counts in home audio are speakers, recordings and rooms. All else has very little, if any, effect on what you hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Tim

Great video clip. That is an awkward amount of science to ignore.

[kingpin75s]

For starters what does coloration mean?

I gave up on high end audio equipment after having some b&w 802s for a bit just to get it all out of my system. Decided it’s all just a bit much and ditched it all for a nice Bluetooth speaker from naim. Most music sounds like **** on a proper hi fi system. Listening to dianna krall over and over gets old quick.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would say this is a reasonable definition of coloration:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/coloration/

To use a specific example and terms one might use in association with coloration, early versions of Nordost cables were considered "bright". Similar to that some people consider Shunyata cables on the "warm" end of the spectrum. I prefer cables as neutral as possible and that is why I favor very specific designs and materials. Note these are just some of the terms to describe impact of changes in your chain, however depth and width of imaging, detail, decay and separation are things I generally focus on during critical listening tests.

Regarding your point on HiFi driving your listening experience, I will consider that point valid. I love classic rock music, however beyond favorites like Black Sabbath's Paranoid which is a great audiophile rock album, many recordings leave you with nothing special. As such, and for other reasons, I listen to a lot of electronic, jazz, house and international music and whereas AC/DC may sound ok on my system, Cornelius Mellow Waves sounds huge, with front to back separation and tons of detail and audible decay. HiFi has driven me to seek materials that benefit from HiFi and there is a lot to choose from.

[kingpin75s]

Junk ------>/ Quality components that make varying but real degrees of difference----- >/ Snake oil

So far it seems like the progression I'm seeing in audio (and many things) run through the above progression. Where the lines are is certainly up for debate, but there are lines.

W.

Agreed William. The challenge is separating the wheat from the chaff.

[buddybikes]

For 80K I would just hire bands I like for personal concert!

[kingpin75s]

Hearing is a funny thing as we tend to detect differences where none exist. Check out this video. You don't need to watch it all, the variability of human hearing is discussed early on. As I have mentioned many times, what really counts in home audio are speakers, recordings and rooms. All else has very little, if any, effect on what you hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Tim

A year ago I might have (mostly) agreed with you regarding speakers, recordings and rooms, however not so much anymore.

First, everything in the chain contributes to an audible difference so while some pieces may have more impact (like inputs and outputs) it all matters and as you stated rooms and recordings are no small part either.

What changed my opinion on speakers as the be all of importance was comparing $2K Revel speakers with Rogue Audio tube mono blocks, vs $10K Revel speakers with Threshold Solid State Mono Blocks. While the more expensive speakers and SS amps did some things very well, the overall enjoyment and what I prefer for presentation in audio was simply better with the less expensive speakers and big tubes. For me, big tubes outweigh speakers in importance and I would spend first to ensure I have quality tube amplification before pushing more dollars to speakers. It was a surprising revelation to me.

[benb]

For 80K I would just hire bands I like for personal concert!

That or just take a year off and travel following some bands, staying in 5 star hotels and living it up.

This stuff is ridiculous wealth signaling at it's worst sometimes.

A lot of the bands probably don't have $80k tied up in their instruments & gear.

[kingpin75s]

Hearing is a funny thing as we tend to detect differences where none exist. Check out this video. You don't need to watch it all, the variability of human hearing is discussed early on. As I have mentioned many times, what really counts in home audio are speakers, recordings and rooms. All else has very little, if any, effect on what you hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Tim

Great video clip. That is an awkward amount of science to ignore.

Always good to understand the source. Did not take 2 seconds to see that he is a polarizing figure in audio and plenty of forums dedicated to praise as well as hard push back.

Funniest quote that came up quick about him:

Ethan is the "Amazing Randi" of audio.

I will check it out when I have time. Will be interesting to see what is in it and what is not, which is just as revealing. Sounds like he boils everything down to 4 keys which is a red flag for me as oversimplification never manages complexity well.

I am betting there is a lot of sound things he built his opinions on but that his theory breaks down as you move across the full spectrum of considerations.

As someone with a strong science and engineering background, I look forward to seeing what his take is.

[pjm]

Nobody who invests in a group of high end components is going to wire it up with cheap lamp cord. It’s kind of like hanging Tiagra on your dream frame, it’s just not right.

[kingpin75s]

Nobody who invests in a group of high end components is going to wire it up with cheap lamp cord. It’s kind of like hanging Tiagra on your dream frame, it’s just not right.

Good analogy. On point.

[chrisroph]

Cables matter a lot but the rest of your system has to be up to allowing the cable to make a difference. I use siltech.

This is an interesting watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07NpWk_Xf8

[William]

I have no dog in this fight, just reading different articles and positions...

From the Roger Russel website...

Speaker Wire - A History...
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth



http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow

Realizing that wire resistance was the critical factor in speaker wire, Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh Laboratory, used a speaker cable demonstration to show there was no listening difference between these wires and plain line cord. He delivered his presentation about the truth in speaker wire using a reel of Monster cable to stand on. Fifty-foot lengths of wire were used in the comparison. The setup consisted of a master control relay box and two slave relay boxes. A three-position switch was used to select one of three different speaker wires of equal length. One was line cord. The other two wires were from popular manufacturers. 8-ohm speakers were selected to be used in the test. The two other brand name wires were heavier than the line cord...


...Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment.


It sounds like he's saying McIntosh changed the speaker wire in their showroom from copper lamp cord to more expensive speaker cables, not because of actual performance, but because of potential customers preconceived notions about basic copper lamp cord.






W.

[kingpin75s]

I have no dog in this fight, just reading different articles and positions...

From the Roger Russel website...

Speaker Wire - A History...
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth

It sounds like he's saying McIntosh changed the speaker wire in their showroom from copper lamp cord to more expensive speaker cables, not because of actual performance, but because of potential customers preconceived notions about basic copper lamp cord.

W.

William, I appreciate the softball pitch ;)

Smells like another "Amazing Randi" moment to me. This stuff is easy to address so great to bring forward.

Specifically:

"The setup consisted of a master control relay box and two slave relay boxes. A three-position switch was used to select one of three different speaker wires of equal length."

I read as: Add a bunch of crappy switching to the signal path to pollute the sound to a low common denominator and then claim scientific success. Not flawed methodology at all :rolleyes:

I would give consideration to the test IF they simply swapped cables and left the core signal path intact on a quality system. As stated, "Amazing Randi science".

Regarding the McIntosh comments, I would have to read more about the context of the statement but does not sound right to me. McIntosh and Audio Research are the 2 brands I consider iconic American audio brands and I know for sure that the "ears" of ARC personally owns and runs Sain Line Systems cables when voicing new products. He signs off on new equipment based on how they sound with cables he believes to be the most transparent not what comes in the box. If I dig deeper on this I will comment at some point.

[93KgBike]

You are accusing Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh Laboratory, of using "a bunch of crap" to build something? Simply to claim, "scientific success."

Why would an engineer of his standing do that? Both he and Frank McIntosh were engineers recognized way beyond just consumer products. Gow worked as an engineer fighting against the Nazis, building radar equipment.

What basis do you have to libel the man?



This thread has definitely run its course.

William, I appreciate the softball pitch ;)

Smells like another "Amazing Randi" moment to me. This stuff is easy to address so great to bring forward.

Specifically:

"The setup consisted of a master control relay box and two slave relay boxes. A three-position switch was used to select one of three different speaker wires of equal length."

I read as: Add a bunch of crappy switching to the signal path to pollute the sound to a low common denominator and then claim scientific success. Not flawed methodology at all :rolleyes:

I would give consideration to the test IF they simply swapped cables and left the core signal path intact on a quality system. As stated, "Amazing Randi science".

Regarding the McIntosh comments, I would have to read more about the context of the statement but does not sound right to me. McIntosh and Audio Research are the 2 brands I consider iconic American audio brands and I know for sure that the "ears" of ARC personally owns and runs Sain Line Systems cables when voicing new products. He signs off on new equipment based on how they sound with cables he believes to be the most transparent not what comes in the box. If I dig deeper on this I will comment at some point.

[Gsinill]

Nobody who invests in a group of high end components is going to wire it up with cheap lamp cord. It’s kind of like hanging Tiagra on your dream frame, it’s just not right.

This is pretty much what it comes down to for me as well.
My components are not at the top of the high end scale but they are subjectively too nice for the $1.29/ft Home Depot route.

[kingpin75s]

You are accusing Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh Laboratory, of using "a bunch of crap" to build something? Simply to claim, "scientific success."

Why would an engineer of his standing do that? Both he and Frank McIntosh were engineers recognized way beyond just consumer products. Gow worked as an engineer fighting against the Nazis, building radar equipment.

What basis do you have to libel the man?

This thread has definitely run its course.

Just Wow!

Actually I am calling out the article author Roger Russell for using dated tests from the 80s it appears to reference. Are you sure Gordon Gow's opinion would be the same today? He did pass on 30 years ago. Would be happy to see anything remotely current on this.

I will stand behind the fact that I consider adding layers of switching to be a very flawed testing method. I subscribe to the Nelson Pass school of less is more. I do not want anything that is not needed in my signal path. That said, there are likely other factors including cable technology at the time that could yield the results. Did not mean to be too dismissive as I respect what he built, but I also do not believe that the test has any current relevance beyond the fact that, yes, the gauge matters. Just a lot more is known about what matters now and gauge is not the only game in town when it comes to building a cable. This is perhaps like a good movie that does not hold up well today.

I would be more interested in what McIntosh thinks now, hence reserving any judgement on the general McIntosh comments unless I learned more about their current stance.

Ironic that Joe would pay tribute to Gordon in this way if Gordan's view remained intact till his passing.

"After fifteen years of working as Vice President of Sales for the legendary McIntosh Laboratory Inc., one of the AV industries most respected manufacturers of high quality audio components, Joe developed a passion for the design and manufacture of high-quality electronic products, and for the partnership between the manufacturer and the very best installers and retailers. Along with his knowledge of quality, sales and marketing, and a Bachelor of Science Degree in Electrical Engineering, Joe started Tributaries® Cables. The company's philosophical inspiration was Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh from 1949 to 1989, who was renowned for his commitment to excellence. In fact, the Tributaries® name was chosen as a "Tribute" to Gordon Gow himself."

[mtechnica]

I for one would be interested in some hard scientific data behind using different kinds of speaker cables. I would imagine the produced waveform by the speaker could be measured and analyzed - heck you wouldn’t necessarily even need a speaker, you could go straight out of the end of the cable into a computer and see how much information is coming out the other end, you’d think it should be possible to see differences in dynamics and resolution that way in a much more objective manner than just listening by ear. And even speaking of by ear, are there any examples of scientific blind comparison tests that are directly comparing different kinds of cables that show a statistically significant positive or negative perception across a range of listeners? I want to believe but as someone that also has a science and engineering background I have serious doubts that extremely expensive cables are necessarily going to be better than some kind of cheap industrial cable of similar material (or possible even of not very similar material and construction). That said I have never owned a particularly high end stereo system, only what most would consider decent or middle of the road. I know people claim to be able to hear things that I haven’t been able to discern with my lowly equipment.

[kingpin75s]

I for one would be interested in some hard scientific data behind using different kinds of speaker cables. I would imagine the produced waveform by the speaker could be measured and analyzed - heck you wouldn’t necessarily even need a speaker, you could go straight out of the end of the cable into a computer and see how much information is coming out the other end, you’d think it should be possible to see differences in dynamics and resolution that way in a much more objective manner than just listening by ear. And even speaking of by ear, are there any examples of scientific blind comparison tests that are directly comparing different kinds of cables that show a statistically significant positive or negative perception across a range of listeners? I want to believe but as someone that also has a science and engineering background I have serious doubts that extremely expensive cables are necessarily going to be better than some kind of cheap industrial cable of similar material (or possible even of not very similar material and construction). That said I have never owned a particularly high end stereo system, only what most would consider decent or middle of the road. I know people claim to be able to hear things that I haven’t been able to discern with my lowly equipment.

That is truly the challenge. Would be interested if you stumble across any interesting tests.

The other challenge is to ask if all that is audible is measureable. I am not sure it is. Not sure it is not.

We, as a listening group, generally just independently take notes during sessions and then compare at the end so as not to pollute anyone's take on a change.

[Mark McM]

It sounds like he's saying McIntosh changed the speaker wire in their showroom from copper lamp cord to more expensive speaker cables, not because of actual performance, but because of potential customers preconceived notions about basic copper lamp cord.

Since this is a cycling forum - this is similar to how road cycling tires have patterned treads (instead of being smooth), and have directional arrows. It's not because of actual performance, its because potential customers have preconceived notions that road cycling tires need tread patterns and must be mounted in specific orientations.

[Ozz]

...The other challenge is to ask if all that is audible is measureable. I am not sure it is. Not sure it is not...
I am sure you can measure all kinds of stuff...from source, thru amps, tubes connectors, cables, speakers, air density, humidity, ad nauseam....

The problem is the final piece of the system: the listener

The listener ears and brain interpret the sound, and everyone is going to hear it the way they hear it....and no one is going to convince them otherwise.

Cheers.

[kingpin75s]

Since this is a cycling forum - this is similar to how road cycling tires have patterned treads (instead of being smooth), and have directional arrows. It's not because of actual performance, its because potential customers have preconceived notions that road cycling tires need tread patterns and must be mounted in specific orientations.

Perhaps a better analogy in this case is whether tires are better now than 30 years ago and whether that matters.

Here are 5 things now commonly used in audio cable design that were not in play 30 years ago:

1. "Lowmass" connectors
2. Carbon loaded anti static dielectrics
3. Aircore dielectrics
4. Ribbon conductors
5. Cryogenics

[kingpin75s]

I am sure you can measure all kinds of stuff...from source, thru amps, tubes connectors, cables, speakers, air density, humidity, ad nauseam....

The problem is the final piece of the system: the listener

The listener ears and brain interpret the sound, and everyone is going to hear it the way they hear it....and no one is going to convince them otherwise.

Cheers.

100% agreed.

That is why it is good to have other ears and not just your own. I know who in my group will likely come up with the same independent thoughts on how a change has been manifested. I also know who in the group has the best ear for top end sounds. I hear what I hear and I listen to what others hear that I may not.

This is the reason why I give more weight to people like Erick Lickte. He is a Stereophile editor and a Choral director. I trust his ears. I trust his understanding of recreating live music and give weight to his opinion. But he is just one of many audiophiles I respect and whos opinions I incorporate into my own understanding.

[Mark McM]

Perhaps a better analogy in this case is whether tires are better now than 30 years ago and whether that matters.

Here are 5 things now commonly used in audio cable design that were not in play 30 years ago:

1. "Lowmass" connectors
2. Carbon loaded anti static dielectrics
3. Aircore dielectrics
4. Ribbon conductors
5. Cryogenics

But we still have answer the fundamental question - how do we know if any of these make a difference?

[kingpin75s]

But we still have answer the fundamental question - how do we know if any of these make a difference?

You have to hear for yourself perhaps.

I have been on both sides of the fence in my life and I did not buy a single $ worth of HiFi before I understood and heard the difference. I was a skeptic until the first time I heard a great HiFi system in a well tuned room. I was blown away. I was in.

I was further blown away by the fact that just about every change I have made to my high quality system, that I have since built, has been very audible and not subtle. I am talking cables, Sorbothane pads, hard maple stands, 703 treatments. Everything.

I have heard enough different cables to have the perspective to review a design and reasonably understand how that cable has addressed the 4 primary considerations:

Resistance
Capacitance
Inductance
Skin Effect

Based on how a manufacturer manages those considerations, is how I evaluate a cable to be worth listening to or not. That said, even if I do not immediately "get" a design, I know there are many ways to an end game and I am always open to learn something new and keep an open mind.

[Mark McM]

We've heard the same story about experienced experts in wine, who can tell the best wines from the 2nd best with a mere taste.

And yet ...

When these same experts are subjected to blind tasting, it is found that they are very bad at determining differences between wine.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

So, you believe that you can hear the differences that these construction differences make in speaker cables. But how do you know?

(And don't confuse what I'm saying. I'm not saying I know that you can't hear the difference. Maybe you can. I just don't know one way or the other. But I haven't heard a reason that you know, either.)

[kingpin75s]

We've heard the same story about experienced experts in wine, who can tell the best wines from the 2nd best with a mere taste.

And yet ...

When these same experts are subjected to blind tasting, it is found that they are very bad at determining differences between wine.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

So, you believe that you can hear the differences that these construction differences make in speaker cables. But how do you know?

(And don't confuse what I'm saying. I'm not saying I know that you can't hear the difference. Maybe you can. I just don't know one way or the other. But I haven't heard a reason that you know, either.)

Good thing I always close my eyes for critical listening ;)

Really 2 parts to this if I understand your question correctly.

My stance on what I prefer in cable design is a result of the sum total of my listening experience.

The reason I believe certain designs are better and have an opinion is based strictly on how the music changes with a cable (or any other change). More or less detail, wider image or not, good front to back depth or no, good separation or no, strong tight bass or no, vocals just there or hanging on every breath, how is my cymbal decay etc.

Corneluis Mellow Waves is a great album for vocals, separation and decay
Tricky Skilled Mechanics has a couple cuts I like to use to check out my bass
etc.

In short, I know because differences are generally not subtle. Those differences are indexed against everything I have listened to and I form my opinions from there.

Ultimately it only really matters to those willing to put in the effort on every level to refine their room and system and that system meets the definition of HiFi. If you skip anything, you compromise everything.

[Bob Ross]

So, you believe that you can hear the differences that these construction differences make in speaker cables. But how do you know?

(And don't confuse what I'm saying. I'm not saying I know that you can't hear the difference. Maybe you can. I just don't know one way or the other. But I haven't heard a reason that you know, either.)


I love you, man. :banana:



As both a professional audio engineer and musician for over 40 years and an armchair scientist with a particular interest in neuroscience, I'm especially attracted to questions like "How can we prove that [something] sounds better than [something else]."
(Or, if not "better", then just "different")

And there are ways to demonstrate differences. Even ways to demonstrate differences that the scientific community agrees would be considered "objective"

Guess which community doesn't (generally) agree with those demonstrations? I'll give you a hint: They're the folks who replace their $800 speaker cables with $8,000 speaker cables and immediately claim "EVEN MY WIFE COULD HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!"

Personally, I like to think of myself as a healthily skeptical agnostic: I'm willing to believe that many of the products marketed to the audiophile community can make a difference. I would love to see more audiophiles embracing a willingness to explore what exactly those differences are.

But, similar to the ways some persons of faith [sic] seem to scoff at non-believers because they seek "proof", a vast majority of the audiophiles I've encountered will only go so far to discover what it is they're actually hearing before they retreat behind various canards e.g., "you can't measure everything you hear" or "the stress of performing under test conditions affects your ability to discern things that you ordinarily can hear" or "listening for differences only allows you to hear differences" etc.

[charliedid]

I love you, man. :banana:



As both a professional audio engineer and musician for over 40 years and an armchair scientist with a particular interest in neuroscience, I'm especially attracted to questions like "How can we prove that [something] sounds better than [something else]."
(Or, if not "better", then just "different")

And there are ways to demonstrate differences. Even ways to demonstrate differences that the scientific community agrees would be considered "objective"

Guess which community doesn't (generally) agree with those demonstrations? I'll give you a hint: They're the folks who replace their $800 speaker cables with $8,000 speaker cables and immediately claim "EVEN MY WIFE COULD HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!"

Personally, I like to think of myself as a healthily skeptical agnostic: I'm willing to believe that many of the products marketed to the audiophile community can make a difference. I would love to see more audiophiles embracing a willingness to explore what exactly those differences are.

But, similar to the ways some persons of faith [sic] seem to scoff at non-believers because they seek "proof", a vast majority of the audiophiles I've encountered will only go so far to discover what it is they're actually hearing before they retreat behind various canards e.g., "you can't measure everything you hear" or "the stress of performing under test conditions affects your ability to discern things that you ordinarily can hear" or "listening for differences only allows you to hear differences" etc.

Wait, could you please repeat that again? I'm not sure I heard that right...

[kingpin75s]

I love you, man. :banana:



As both a professional audio engineer and musician for over 40 years and an armchair scientist with a particular interest in neuroscience, I'm especially attracted to questions like "How can we prove that [something] sounds better than [something else]."
(Or, if not "better", then just "different")

And there are ways to demonstrate differences. Even ways to demonstrate differences that the scientific community agrees would be considered "objective"

Guess which community doesn't (generally) agree with those demonstrations? I'll give you a hint: They're the folks who replace their $800 speaker cables with $8,000 speaker cables and immediately claim "EVEN MY WIFE COULD HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!"

Personally, I like to think of myself as a healthily skeptical agnostic: I'm willing to believe that many of the products marketed to the audiophile community can make a difference. I would love to see more audiophiles embracing a willingness to explore what exactly those differences are.

But, similar to the ways some persons of faith [sic] seem to scoff at non-believers because they seek "proof", a vast majority of the audiophiles I've encountered will only go so far to discover what it is they're actually hearing before they retreat behind various canards e.g., "you can't measure everything you hear" or "the stress of performing under test conditions affects your ability to discern things that you ordinarily can hear" or "listening for differences only allows you to hear differences" etc.

Bob, I get you are on the skeptic side of the fence. I was there. Did not pay a dime to cross the fence. Have since. Am pretty sure SOME of those wife stories are true.

2 things I did find important in your post:

Better and Different is an important concept to understand as an audiophile. Up to a certain point, better is simply better. At some point the diminishing returns is significant enough and the changes are possibly lateral so it is just different. I know where I want to be on the value chain and the best way to get there, kind of like bikes. Example: I think speakers in the $2K - $10K range represent the best value for a HiFi experience and within the range with Revel as an example pairs at $2K, $5K and $10K have real quality differences. I have spent significant time with each. Are their $25K speakers better, sure. That much better. Not as much. The slope begins.

The second part is exploring differences. If you do not have the passion for audio and a true openness to learning the way many here do with bikes, then yes good chance the more you spend, the more you waste. If you have the assets to learn and a keen understanding of the best way to generate value, then audio is great and you actually get what you pay for. If your speakers are jammed against a wall and facing a bunch of windows, I hope you didn't pay much.

Great reproduction of sound is tough because it takes $, knowledge and massive attention to detail to get the most out of it. Anything less, is often leaving a lot on the table.

[Ken Robb]

I'm so old that I used to be amazed that ANYONE could/would pay $880 for an Electrovoice Patrician speaker system when I was trying to save enought to get a 12TRXB in an Aristocrat enclosure. If you know what I'm saying you must be REALLY OLD!

[William]

So, related in the wire sense...what about RCA wires/plugs? Are there claims to major differences between average cables and more expensive ones in that arena as well?






W.

[Brian Smith]

Generally, the reactions against high-end speaker cables, including those in this thread, are based on the expense level rather than the performance level. If you're uncertain whether or not spending the money is worthwhile for you, but you don't want to feel as though you might be hindering your system, or appearing to do so, by using non-audiophile cables, why not then choose an economy-priced cable produced specifically for hi-fi usage?

Anticables has received significant critical acclaim for some products which can be had, even at "going monoprice for those" lengths, relatively inexpensively.
Start here and have a look around. (http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel)
There are a lot of choices in length and in interconnect style available, and generally no need to spend time waiting for customized selections to be produced.

[djg]

Generally, the reactions against high-end speaker cables, including those in this thread, are based on the expense level rather than the performance level. If you're uncertain whether or not spending the money is worthwhile for you, but you don't want to feel as though you might be hindering your system, or appearing to do so, by using non-audiophile cables, why not then choose an economy-priced cable produced specifically for hi-fi usage?

Anticables has received significant critical acclaim for some products which can be had, even at "going monoprice for those" lengths, relatively inexpensively.
Start here and have a look around. (http://anticables.com/speaker-wires/2-channel)
There are a lot of choices in length and in interconnect style available, and generally no need to spend time waiting for customized selections to be produced.

I took a quick look at the web site. I don't see AWG listed -- at least not for their lower price cables.

Also, while their lower priced cables are very inexpensive relative to some of the cables listed in the Robb Report, they are not really priced like the monoprice or blue jeans cables -- they're also a bit more expensive than the best prices I've seen for, say, Audioquest Type 4 cable. At 8 bucks per foot for the Anticable 2.1 cable, a 15 foot pair runs to 240 bucks with spades or bare ends, and a bit more if one wants banana plugs on one end (or both). Runs of just a few feet are, obviously, much less expensive. At 250 . . . so, it's not a fortune, to be sure, and if I'd listened to these at some length, and had heard remarkable improvements, I'd be glad to spend the money, even if I didn't fully understand the why of it (and even if I did understand limitations built into most a/b testing situations). For me, it's a bit much for a "what the heck I'll give it a try" approach.

[benb]

I'd be interested in what the source material is to care about these super high end cables. I have pretty good ears, a LOT of the source material out there is not very good.

A blind test I would be really interested in seeing would be one that uses the same system on different days with the same listener. The listener does not know whether anything changed in the system. Same listening material each time.

I'm somewhat willing to believe a lot of us would detect differences in the system where no actual change took place. I personally really have had the experience/sensation of hearing different things on different days when I know nothing had changed.

[geordanh]

This thread has lived up to my expectations.

Ironically enough I’ve enjoyed listening to music MORE since ditching high end hi fi.

Hifi has a way of focusing your listening attention on flaws - recording quality (first and foremost with 95% of music out there), room effects, perceived weaknesses in your system etc etc. It’s kinda nice to just turn on the stereo and enjoy the music and not think about everything else.

Kinda the equivalent of just riding and getting in the zone so the bike disappears.

[rnhood]

Expensive esoteric cables typically provide no benefit for typical lengths. Cables like the Transparent with included 3db roll off networks probably have an advantage with speakers employing highly reactive crossovers, or solid state amps with a lots of global feedback and without an output choke to help maintain stability (eg, the infamous Ampzillas).

[Peter P.]

Part of my job includes installing and service in-building PA systems. We typically use Bogen (http://http://www.bogen.com/) products, a long time, well-known company in the industry.

I was thumbing through a piece of Bogen tech literature today where it is stated that:

For "direct connection" systems (those with 4-8 ohm speakers), 18 gauge wire or larger offers the best performance for 50-100ft. runs.


This likely includes cable runs most of us have in our sound systems.

As to an earlier mention of considering "skin effects" for speaker wire, I have to disagree. My work also includes radio communications. Skin effect only becomes a factor in RF communications, and usually only at frequencies of 1GHz or higher, where you'll find wave guides and hollow center conductors. Since audio only goes up to 20kHz (yeah, yeah; I can hear someone already screaming, "BUT YOU FORGOT ABOUT HARMONICS!"), I can safely say skin effects are unimportant in audio.

And to answer William's question, RCA cables are in the same boat.

[kingpin75s]

So, related in the wire sense...what about RCA wires/plugs? Are there claims to major differences between average cables and more expensive ones in that arena as well?

W.

Minding this is a high end speaker cable thread and I am presuming a high end system attached.

RCA cables or Interconnects in general are all important.

I am not sure which is more important between speaker cables and ICs, but I would lean to speaker cables. Simply for the fact that there are more chances things will aggregate through that route. You may have more IC considerations depending on number of inputs.

Power cables are important but well behind speaker and IC for me.

This approach is reflected in the quality I buy. Higher for speaker and IC. Mid for PCs. Monoprice for sub cables. It gives me the best value in performance for my system.

When is comes to cables the materials are important.

When it comes to cables the design is even more important.

For anyone who would like to learn more about audio cables from a DIY perspective this is a link I highly recommend:

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

Been awhile since I read and I do not agree with everything, but it is the first thing I point people to who want to develop their own understanding. Like anything, just one source.

Those concepts can be applied to some more up market materials and connectors to good effect I expect. Optimizing, that takes time and iterations.

[kingpin75s]

I'd be interested in what the source material is to care about these super high end cables. I have pretty good ears, a LOT of the source material out there is not very good.

A blind test I would be really interested in seeing would be one that uses the same system on different days with the same listener. The listener does not know whether anything changed in the system. Same listening material each time.

I'm somewhat willing to believe a lot of us would detect differences in the system where no actual change took place. I personally really have had the experience/sensation of hearing different things on different days when I know nothing had changed.

Source material is really not an issue unless you only listen to dad rock. Even then, I do recommend Black Sabbath Paranoid on any system.

I do admittedly keep an eye on which album wins best engineered annually but so much quality stuff across most genres.

My top 5 reference albums:

Cornelius - Mellow Waves
Nicolas Jaar - Space is only Noise
Tricky - Skilled Mechanics
Erykah Badu - Baduizm
Willy Nelson - Stardust Memories

Blind tests work well. Since we have a group where we rotate through different people hosting, we get to see other's systems evolve. There may have been multiple small changes, such that you cannot attribute each one, but like watching a growing kid, every time you see them they have grown and are different. Hopefully better ;)

Thinking you may have heard something when nothing has changed can happen I imagine. But not really the point. The point with cables is do they effect sound and they better your system, the more important preserving your signal is. In computers there is a cpu term called context switching. I want a system with the least amount of context switches from end to end.

[kingpin75s]

This thread has lived up to my expectations.

Ironically enough I’ve enjoyed listening to music MORE since ditching high end hi fi.

Hifi has a way of focusing your listening attention on flaws - recording quality (first and foremost with 95% of music out there), room effects, perceived weaknesses in your system etc etc. It’s kinda nice to just turn on the stereo and enjoy the music and not think about everything else.

Kinda the equivalent of just riding and getting in the zone so the bike disappears.

There is a time for critical listening and a time to enjoy the music.

If you focus on flaws too much you end up falling under one of our groups often used even if inappropriate sayings. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"

Similar but different from your take, I see a well tuned system just like a well tuned bike, it disappears beneath me like my speakers disappear in front of me.

Sounds like we have each found our own zone. I am happy with mine and am happy that you are happy with yours.

[kingpin75s]

Expensive esoteric cables typically provide no benefit for typical lengths. Cables like the Transparent with included 3db roll off networks probably have an advantage with speakers employing highly reactive crossovers, or solid state amps with a lots of global feedback and without an output choke to help maintain stability (eg, the infamous Ampzillas).

How does any of this apply to real HiFi? Seems like you are recommending to roll off sound because the system is crappy to begin with. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Yes. MidFi systems or less do not benefit from much more than decent materials and simple design like a Monoprice.

The question is do high end cables matter for high end systems and they do.

[kingpin75s]

I can safely say skin effects are unimportant in audio.


PA systems are not the same thing. Your conclusion is based on what actual experience with HiFI?

My experience is that cables made from many conductors to achieve the same gauge as few conductors have a different sound, all other components and materials being equal. One of the factors to that difference is skin effect. It is the primary reason why I expect that you see solid core materials used in high end cables as opposed to braided wire. If skin effect is not a thing, wouldn't braided wire be better? More surface area.

[Bob Ross]

Thinking you may have heard something when nothing has changed can happen I imagine. But not really the point.

Actually that is precisely the point: Expectation Bias is a known phenomenon in nearly every aspect of human perception, and any listening "test" [sic] that does not take it into account hasn't accurately demonstrated whatever it purports to prove.

[benb]

Source material is really not an issue unless you only listen to dad rock. Even then, I do recommend Black Sabbath Paranoid on any system.

I do admittedly keep an eye on which album wins best engineered annually but so much quality stuff across most genres.

My top 5 reference albums:

Cornelius - Mellow Waves
Nicolas Jaar - Space is only Noise
Tricky - Skilled Mechanics
Erykah Badu - Baduizm
Willy Nelson - Stardust Memories


This is exactly my point.. if you're selecting your music based on what the audio engineer does instead of what *music* is actually good you've put the whole thing backwards. When I look at these lists of "audiophile picks" over on say HDTracks.com or something I usually go "meh, don't really care for any of that music right now so who cares if the recording is well done."


Blind tests work well. Since we have a group where we rotate through different people hosting, we get to see other's systems evolve. There may have been multiple small changes, such that you cannot attribute each one, but like watching a growing kid, every time you see them they have grown and are different. Hopefully better ;)


Right.. but if all those small changes turn out to be smaller than the variability in what you hear day to day...


Thinking you may have heard something when nothing has changed can happen I imagine. But not really the point. The point with cables is do they effect sound and they better your system, the more important preserving your signal is. In computers there is a cpu term called context switching. I want a system with the least amount of context switches from end to end.

That is a rather strange analogy.

[kingpin75s]

Actually that is precisely the point: Expectation Bias is a known phenomenon in nearly every aspect of human perception, and any listening "test" [sic] that does not take it into account hasn't accurately demonstrated whatever it purports to prove.

Yeah. Familiar with it. My kid likes to watch Brain Games. Heard you all twice the first time on this front.

I consider obvious audible changes to be outside the scope of Expectation Bias.

You clearly do not. If the changes generally were subtle or just different rather then better then maybe you would have a point as related to my experience. Not the case. Not everything can be attributed to Expectation Bias is why I restate it is not the point in my case.

[Mark McM]

Yeah. Familiar with it. My kid likes to watch Brain Games. Heard you all twice the first time on this front.

I consider obvious audible changes to be outside the scope of Expectation Bias.

You clearly do not. If the changes generally were subtle or just different rather then better then maybe you would have a point as related to my experience. Not the case. Not everything can be attributed to Expectation Bias is why I restate it is not the point in my case.

On the other hand -

Improvements in quality of speaker cables can easily overlap the realm of just-noticeable differences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference). There is no doubt that differences in sound quality can be heard between really lousy cable and really good cables. The real question is, how good do cables have to be before improvements in the cable no longer produce noticeable differences? I suspect that many high-end cables are beyond that threshold for any human ear, and any further improvements in cables are superfluous.

[kingpin75s]

On the other hand -

Improvements in quality of speaker cables can easily overlap the realm of just-noticeable differences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference). There is no doubt that differences in sound quality can be heard between really lousy cable and really good cables. The real question is, how good do cables have to be before improvements in the cable no longer produce noticeable differences? I suspect that many high-end cables are beyond that threshold for any human ear, and any further improvements in cables are superfluous.

I agree with this with small caveats.

As previously mentioned, my take on high end cables, based on my auditioning experiences is that value starts to really tap out in the $8K range for a standard length 2M set. YMMV. All of the $20K - $80K speakers cables posted have no interest to me beyond expanding my knowledge purely out of curiosity.

That said, I am not definitively saying they do not sound different as you state. They certainly could sound different but to your point, ideally they should not. The highest end cables are meant to be transparent. Yet most cable manufacturers tries to differentiate themselves through design. Design is a big part in driving the sound you get so in truth they highest end cables all are likely very transparent, yet potentially have different sounds.

If I were given the choice between a set of $8K cables I trust and any crazy expensive pair, to be my last pair and could never sell, I would not take the chance on anything further up market.

[kingpin75s]

This is exactly my point.. if you're selecting your music based on what the audio engineer does instead of what *music* is actually good you've put the whole thing backwards. When I look at these lists of "audiophile picks" over on say HDTracks.com or something I usually go "meh, don't really care for any of that music right now so who cares if the recording is well done."


Sorry that I used a few specific examples to make you think in some way that it has been limiting for me. Let me be completely clear in the fact that HiFi has opened me up to new genres of music and has in general deepened my appreciation for music. So for me, I listen more, listen to more and appreciate music more.

[kingpin75s]

That is a rather strange analogy.

Not really. Limiting context switches means as little as is needed to get the job done. Less in the way. Less is more. Absolutely relevant in cable design. Really a Nelson Pass inspired analogy.

His pet project company First Watt is really interesting stuff and his solid state designs are some of the only ones I have ever been interested in as a strongly prefers tubes guy.

[kingpin75s]

Right.. but if all those small changes turn out to be smaller than the variability in what you hear day to day...


But if, but if, but if.

Again, the changes I have experienced have not been subtle. In truth, my system has evolved enough in the last 15 months such that the sum of change is quite staggering.

[kingpin75s]

As fortune would have it, I am testing one of they more controversial concepts in cables this past week or so.

Cables have the potential to be directional. This I understand is grounded in how the ribbon, in my case, is manufactured and directionality coming off the spool. For this reason it must be considered as part of the design phase to be optimized such that all ribbons come off and remain in the same direction during build.

My speaker cables are. Similar to other areas I have experienced, I was again surprised as to how the difference was not subtle at all.

If you note the jumper tip I gave on pg3. you will see them attached one direction and now I have flipped them. I had not asked precedence up front so as to test so was not sure if it was going to be better, worse, different, not. It got a lot better. The edge I thought was just part of needing more time to break in was gone and the whole image felt far less compressed. Much bigger, more open, smooth and natural. They were broken in already, just the wrong direction.

In fact, they already sound better than the previous generation reference pure silver multi strand braided bi-wire San Line speaker cables I had borrowed from a friend renovating his listening space for the past few months. I can tell I am missing a bit of mid range body from not having the bi-wire run and using jumpers, but the top end is really smooth, open and revealing. The depth and resonance of cymbal decay is an easy thing to listen for in some pieces and with the right system it is crazy how for long you can hear the decay as the vocals for example move forward.

Called a friend with the same speaker cables and he confirmed, by convention San Line cables sound best with the white band at the speaker end. I agree.

Still running jumpers and have ordered a second set for bi-wire which should be completed in about 4-6 weeks. This time I am going to go the extra to have WBT pure silver banana plug connectors installed on the build. Will then move the original cables to the bottom posts and use the better connectors for the top end. The Sain Line reference speaker cables are that good IMHO.

[glepore]

I can tell the difference between a good interconnect and a bad one, but not a whole lot between good ones. And in my limited experience, interconnects make a 10x greater difference in sound than speaker wire.

Even though I'll concede that others may actually hear things that I'm incapable of, its way too far down the diminishing returns alley for me.

The other thing-sounding different isn't more accurate, nor is sounding better. Its just a different "coloration". Every system, regardless of quality, has coloration. Some of us prefer one form of it over the other-hence why the tube v ss and the speaker debates go on ad infinitum.

It sure is fun to bs about, though.

[Mark McM]

As fortune would have it, I am testing one of they more controversial concepts in cables this past week or so.

Cables have the potential to be directional. This I understand is grounded in how the ribbon, in my case, is manufactured and directionality coming off the spool. For this reason it must be considered as part of the design phase to be optimized such that all ribbons come off and remain in the same direction during build.

Okay, you got me! Boy, you really had me going for a while there. But this one's too over the top to fool even me - speaker cables being directional? That's a riot! Directional cables for an AC signal - hilarious!

Oh wait .. maybe you're still being serious ...

[Jeff N.]

I just use Monster Cable.

[benb]

I'd add if context switches bug you on your computer for the same reason directionality of your analog cables carrying A/C signals do you might want to try going back to something like DOS... computing at it's purest with no context switches...

Might have some negatives though.

[tlittlefield]

Okay, you got me! Boy, you really had me going for a while there. But this one's too over the top to fool even me - speaker cables being directional? That's a riot! Directional cables for an AC signal - hilarious!

Oh wait .. maybe you're still being serious ...

YES he is being completely serious!

Every hi-end speaker cable that I have used has an "amp" end and a "speaker" end.

[Mark McM]

YES he is being completely serious!

Every hi-end speaker cable that I have used has an "amp" end and a "speaker" end.

Many bicycle road tires have directional arrows molded into them. Any yet, no one has yet come up with any evidence that mounting direction makes a difference in road tire performance. Continental has gone on the record as saying that the only reason they print directional arrows on their tires is so to cut down on the number of times that users ask which direction to mount them.

Just because speaker cables are labeled with different ends, it doesn't mean that it actually makes a difference.

[Gsinill]

Okay, you got me! Boy, you really had me going for a while there. But this one's too over the top to fool even me - speaker cables being directional? That's a riot! Directional cables for an AC signal - hilarious!

Oh wait .. maybe you're still being serious ...

Wow, just googled "directional speaker cables"...
In before the lock ;)

[benb]

Wow, just googled "directional speaker cables"...
In before the lock ;)

I'm learning so much googling that. I didn't know cables need to be burned in, and that the sound changes after burn in, and that if you reverse the cable after burn in it hurts the sound.

:eek:

[choke]

Sometimes there is a good reason for a cable to be hooked up in a certain direction. In many cables the negative side is grounded only to one connector, so by attaching that end at the source it grounds the cable and lessens interference.

[benb]

Sometimes there is a good reason for a cable to be hooked up in a certain direction. In many cables the negative side is grounded only to one connector, so by attaching that end at the source it grounds the cable and lessens interference.

I saw that.. sounds like the fancy cable manufacturers are talking about grounding the shielding at one end only. Grounding issues are usually... not subtle.

[CAAD]

I just used some West Penn 25226B from a leftover spool from a auditorium job. 14/2 running on a Yamaha and with some Bowers and Wilkins bookshelf speakers. Sounds dang good to me. Picked up some shrink wrap for the ends and black mesh wire loom. Don't buy the snake oil. Sure 12 or 10awg would be nice but these wire runs are around 3ft. I experimented with 12awg after I built these cables and the sound was not affected in any way.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LZaZPxLyf1Y/XFNi6-N4-xI/AAAAAAAA4wE/kYcxF0lQ6hMQYcHHsZ99xVdQ01FuRSylgCLcBGAs/s1600/1548967852583.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WaqtA02sU3U/XFNi_0HZNII/AAAAAAAA4wI/Vwegqwf46v8bAuWD0EVdKMMlMyelmRj2gCLcBGAs/s1600/1548967804796.jpg

[kingpin75s]

I'd add if context switches bug you on your computer for the same reason directionality of your analog cables carrying A/C signals do you might want to try going back to something like DOS... computing at it's purest with no context switches...

Might have some negatives though.

DOS. Not my style.

Reduced instruction set UNIX. Yep.

[kingpin75s]

Okay, you got me! Boy, you really had me going for a while there. But this one's too over the top to fool even me - speaker cables being directional? That's a riot! Directional cables for an AC signal - hilarious!

Oh wait .. maybe you're still being serious ...

Yes. Serious.

[kingpin75s]

I can tell the difference between a good interconnect and a bad one, but not a whole lot between good ones. And in my limited experience, interconnects make a 10x greater difference in sound than speaker wire.

Even though I'll concede that others may actually hear things that I'm incapable of, its way too far down the diminishing returns alley for me.

The other thing-sounding different isn't more accurate, nor is sounding better. Its just a different "coloration". Every system, regardless of quality, has coloration. Some of us prefer one form of it over the other-hence why the tube v ss and the speaker debates go on ad infinitum.

It sure is fun to bs about, though.

Interesting your comments on ICs being a bigger difference in your experience.

I have had a hard time deciding which is more important based on my personal testing, as most of my IC testing was last summer and speaker cable testing has been more recent. Both were significant. Part of it could be my starting ICs were potentially a better design than my starting speaker cables so my level up on ICs was less than that of my speaker cables.

Certainly preserving low level signals like with ICs has merit.

Thanks for the input.

[kingpin75s]

I just used some West Penn 25226B from a leftover spool from a auditorium job. 14/2 running on a Yamaha and with some Bowers and Wilkins bookshelf speakers. Sounds dang good to me. Picked up some shrink wrap for the ends and black mesh wire loom. Don't buy the snake oil. Sure 12 or 10awg would be nice but these wire runs are around 3ft. I experimented with 12awg after I built these cables and the sound was not affected in any way.


I agree for short runs after reaching a certain minimum gauge, there are only subtle differences in body to be had with thicker wire. For the gauge component of design only.

However, other design components like ribbons or aircore dielectrics do make a difference, so long as your system is capable of revealing them. '

Without knowing every detail of your system and room, I have no idea if you should hear differences or not, but your own personal experience does not mean others have bought snake oil. Your personal system and room acoustics may simply be tapped out on reveal and better cables will do nothing. But from your post, it sounds like you have not and do not have interest in trying.

Happy that your system sounds darn good to you. You should enjoy that. You should also not presume the entire market to be snake oil when it seems you have tried only gauge variations of a DIY cable.

[CAAD]

The data has been out there for years. The data proves that it's a whole lot of marketing. Good info from the below video from Audioholics.

https://youtu.be/UoVixorZTDM

[DarkStar]

I'm so old that I used to be amazed that ANYONE could/would pay $880 for an Electrovoice Patrician speaker system when I was trying to save enought to get a 12TRXB in an Aristocrat enclosure. If you know what I'm saying you must be REALLY OLD!
Not really old just aware of the Patrician speaker system and an interest in old speakers, Altec VOTTs my favs:banana:

[DarkStar]

Perhaps a better analogy in this case is whether tires are better now than 30 years ago and whether that matters.

Here are 5 things now commonly used in audio cable design that were not in play 30 years ago:

1. "Lowmass" connectors
2. Carbon loaded anti static dielectrics
3. Aircore dielectrics
4. Ribbon conductors
5. Cryogenics
Experiment with all these except carbon loaded anti-dielectrics:banana:

[DarkStar]

Expensive esoteric cables typically provide no benefit for typical lengths. Cables like the Transparent with included 3db roll off networks probably have an advantage with speakers employing highly reactive crossovers, or solid state amps with a lots of global feedback and without an output choke to help maintain stability (eg, the infamous Ampzillas).
Yep.

[kingpin75s]

The data has been out there for years. The data proves that it's a whole lot of marketing. Good info from the below video from Audioholics.

https://youtu.be/UoVixorZTDM

Audioholics. A home theater review publication.

You can get involving music through well done 2 channel HiFi or you can create involvement in a different way through the use of more channels. Different and occasionally colliding markets.

I was not surprised to find that the source might have motivation.

[William]

I didn't ask him about his cables...but I like the set up.




W.