OT: How is the Gov't Shutdown effecting you?

[AngryScientist]

NOT meant as a political thread, as I dont want to hear about what we think about the cause for, or the politics behind the shutdown.

Curious how, or if this lengthy shutdown is effecting the lives of our members.

I understand, for example that volunteer groups have banded together to remove trash, or at least contain it in the big natnl parks. I also understand they are mostly open, but not collecting entrance fees and barely staffed, if at all. It's no secret that I am a huge fan of America's national park system - and also curious if anyone is seeing any real damage done with hoards of people visiting with little or no ranger oversight?

I plan to visit Yosemite next week and see for myself what's happening.

What about air travel? TSA, ATC not getting paid - is this causing unusual delays at the airports?

What else in the real world is effecting the lives of paceliners right now? Maybe some of us work for the govt and are worried about the next paycheck?

again, please no political commentary, just front line shutdown notes...

[David Tollefson]

My favorite mead maker can't get the approvals for his new brews...

THAT chaps my ass.

[nooneline]

I have friends and family out of work. It's really awful.

[Likes2ridefar]

Drove to Durango over the holidays and had planned on a midpoint stop at the petrified forest. It was gated and closed due to the shutdown.

[oldpotatoe]

NOT meant as a political thread, as I dont want to hear about what we think about the cause for, or the politics behind the shutdown.

Curious how, or if this lengthy shutdown is effecting the lives of our members.

I understand, for example that volunteer groups have banded together to remove trash, or at least contain it in the big natnl parks. I also understand they are mostly open, but not collecting entrance fees and barely staffed, if at all. It's no secret that I am a huge fan of America's national park system - and also curious if anyone is seeing any real damage done with hoards of people visiting with little or no ranger oversight?

I plan to visit Yosemite next week and see for myself what's happening.

What about air travel? TSA, ATC not getting paid - is this causing unusual delays at the airports?

What else in the real world is effecting the lives of paceliners right now? Maybe some of us work for the govt and are worried about the next paycheck?

again, please no political commentary, just front line shutdown notes...

Son is an asst branch manager in a bank..Often needs to call Feds for things..nobody home. BOTH look forward to a tax refund...that's in jeopardy.

Other son works for city of Denver..he's way glad he works for a local government that doesn't play these games.

[AngryScientist]

Drove to Durango over the holidays and had planned on a midpoint stop at the petrified forest. It was gated and closed due to the shutdown.

that's interesting. it seems hit or miss which national parks are open and which are just gated and closed. this is the note on the front page of the nps website:

Government Shutdown
During the federal government shutdown, this website will not be updated and may not reflect current conditions. Some national parks may remain accessible to visitors; however, access may change without notice. Some parks are closed completely. Some visitor services may be available when provided by concessioners or other entities. For most parks, there will be no National Park Service-provided visitor services, such as restrooms, trash collection, facilities, or road maintenance. For more information, see www.doi.gov/shutdown and the park website.

[572cv]

I’m beginning to worry about an upcoming trip. I bet things won’t be too bad going out yet.... but will I get back? Sounds like the risk factor is going up a lot. Anyone have thoughts?

[Likes2ridefar]

I’m beginning to worry about an upcoming trip. I bet things won’t be too bad going out yet.... but will I get back? Sounds like the risk factor is going up a lot. Anyone have thoughts?

Me too, I’m flying on Sunday and returning the following Friday.

[AngryScientist]

I’m beginning to worry about an upcoming trip. I bet things won’t be too bad going out yet.... but will I get back? Sounds like the risk factor is going up a lot. Anyone have thoughts?

yup, same concerns here. i'm flying corss country next week and wondering if i'll get back OK if this keeps pushing on. How long without paychecks before TSA and ATC workers start to quit or revolt?

[dsimon]

I am furloughed so its an unpaid vacation ya-me

[OtayBW]

Im out. I'll be back-paid, and no financial burden because of savings (I fortunately do not have to take up pet-sitting as recommended.....:rolleyes:). I'm in the middle of doing a refi on the house which cannot proceed, which is dumb. However, there is a program at work where they hire these developmentally disabled folks to do custodial work. These are some of the hardest-working and most earnest people I have ever worked with, and as sub-contractors, they will very likely not be back-paid. I have to admit that this really pisses me off...

Personally, my guess is an Emergency Action that will end it by Monday.

[Richard]

My son's indoor (High school) track meets at West Point have been cancelled to date this season. Not as nerve wracking as TSA concerns, but a PITA nonetheless.

[AngryScientist]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

[Spaghetti Legs]

There are still trees down across the Blue Ridge Parkway although these date from a storm a couple of weeks before the shutdown. Clearly some budget issues even before this. Hasn’t affected me personally yet since it’s about 10 degrees colder up there and I’ve been riding in the lower elevations.

[OtayBW]

^^ As a rule, full-time feds get back-pay. Sub-contractors do not. And then those who are 'excepted' from furlough but must work, as you say.

[cderalow]

Not a gov’t employee but work in DC

City itself feels like a ghost town. Traffic almost non-existent on the way too and from work.

As in my 16 mile trip takes me 25 minutes as it should and not 45 as it typically does.

Stores near home seem less crowded, im sure due to people hedging bets on this going for another couple weeks and things starting to get skint if they aren’t already.

I serve a lot of non-profit and lobbyist type groups for work. They’re holding back on projects a bit and expressing concerns.

I think in terms of TSA they’re forced to work without pay until shutdown stops, but will get back pay. Supposedly have letters from DHS to send to their creditors etc about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[biker72]

Still getting my social security and company retirement checks. Not planning on flying any time soon. So far the shutdown has had zero effect on me.

[ElvisMerckx]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

Actually, for federal workers, there's no category (1) -- they'll all get paid eventually.

The contracted staff that the federal government depends on are in category (1).

[Bob Ross]

Haven't noticed anything local (NYC)*, but we have our annual vacation to Arizona planned for next month, and concerns about TSA being under-staffed are starting to seem very real. Also our usual rides in Saguaro National Park there may not be possible at all, which will really piss me off.

*Edit: Wait, I forgot, a friend who does contract work for some government fund-raising org (?) told me she had scheduled her vacation earlier this year than originally planned so that she wouldn't get stuck working w/o pay.

[Bentley]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

Category 2 is the Historical norm

[Bob Ross]

How long without paychecks before TSA and ATC workers start to quit or revolt?

Elapsed time, 20 minutes:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/tsa-workers-forced-to-work-without-pay-during-shutdown-are-already-quitting-union-says

[bcroslin]

I work in business development for a small cyber security training company and we were just awarded a govt contract to conduct 4 FEMA cybersecurity workshops over the next 4-5 months. Our second engagement call was supposed to be this afternoon but we received an email yesterday that it was cancelled. Who knows what's going to happen now. All because Ann Coulter/ Fox news made the man-baby angry.

[palincss]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

It's not just federal employees. There are many federal contractors, and they fall into your category 1. As for other federal employees, it's incorrect to say "will get back pay;" much more accurate to say they may get back pay if Congress approves, and that's been so in the past, but there's no guarantee.

[Nooch]

I too am a little nervous about flying if this continues -- i'm slated to head out to vegas on the 31st with plans of riding at Red Rock Canyon -- I'm not even sure if it's accessible now..

[OtayBW]

Actually, for federal workers, there's no category (1) -- they'll all get paid eventually.

The contracted staff that the federal government depends on are in category (1).Unfortunately, much of the e.g., contract custodial staff, commissary staff, electicians, grounds workers, etc. are not full-time federal and have not been back-paid in the shutdowns that I've been involved with where I work.

[echappist]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

there's also 4) working, getting pay, but could end anytime soon, at which point it changes to either 1) or 2). it's the category in which i belong

these agencies in question have not experienced a true shutdown to date (ever since the particular funding law was interpreted to require a shut down). i'm even more fortunate and blessed to have a year's worth of expenses saved up anyway, but i'm still very miffed whenever people says: these feds should have known better and saved up. don't get me started wrt all those buffoonery re: garage sales and whatever needed to pay bills in the interim. personally, i'm filled with dread, as my status will change to 1) or 2) within the month... has it affected productivity? you bet

--------------------------------------

@ the other feds here, is your medical insurance premiums actually getting paid? what about agency TSP contribution match?

----------------------------------------

PS. in case anyone's wondering, my slowing productivity doesn't cost tax payers a single cent, as a) i don't get paid by tax receipts and b) i have to maintain a certain level of productivity

[palincss]

It may seem like a trivial concern, but the rest rooms and portolets all along the Mount Vernon Trail are locked. That makes it difficult to ride the trail, since there's no place to take a bio-break.

Considering how I feel about the utter stupidity of the shutdown, it's doubly infuriating: if money is 1st amendment protected speech, why isn't piss? I'd be happy to ride into downtown DC and to on the Capitol and the White House every day to express my feelings about the situation.

[GregL]

One division of my company does work with the EPA. All that work has been suspended and the employees re-tasked for the foreseeable future. My work is primarily with the Department of Defense, so it has for the most part been business as usual. However, issues requiring interface to non-DoD Government agencies have been affected. We have two radar tests planned for this spring. They are on a day-for-day schedule slip because the operating frequencies for the radars must be approved by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA). NTIA falls under the Department of Commerce and is closed. When the DoD can no longer perform critical missions due to closed Government agencies, either the President or Congress will have to cave.

Greg

[OtayBW]

I re-upp my prediction: as the financial hardship on families for extended shutdown grows, the burden of responsibility for all this will shift, and an Exec/Emergency Order will seem more palatable (I don't want to say to whom...), thus enabling (or emboldening) action on that.

This is the stupidest chitz that I have seen in a long time. Just when you think it can't get any lower....but I've said that a thousand times already with countless different situations.

[glepore]

There are still trees down across the Blue Ridge Parkway although these date from a storm a couple of weeks before the shutdown. Clearly some budget issues even before this. Hasn’t affected me personally yet since it’s about 10 degrees colder up there and I’ve been riding in the lower elevations.

At least Skyline is free for now...

My stepdaughter has her Aussie boyfriend touring the east coast w/her, and they had 3 days planned in DC-given that all the museums etc are closed its a major disappointment/embarrassment.

[Bentley]

Actually, for federal workers, there's no category (1) -- they'll all get paid eventually.

The contracted staff that the federal government depends on are in category (1).

You presume that historical precedence is law. Actually the funding bill would have to include that provision and the President has to sign it, no guarantee.

[OtayBW]

You presume that historical precedence is law. Actually the funding bill would have to include that provision and the President has to sign it, no guarantee.That's a good point. I had not considered that. Of course, historical precedence is a good indicator, but on the other hand, we're also a ~day or two away from the longest shutdown on record. Another thing I did not consider is the fact that I put in for 10 days of Annual Leave which started at the beginning of the shutdown. No idea how that will factor into things.

[GregL]

My stepdaughter has her Aussie boyfriend touring the east coast w/her, and they had 3 days planned in DC-given that all the museums etc are closed its a major disappointment/embarrassment.
Embarrassment is the key word. It's sad when a once world-leading government becomes a punch-line for late night comedians. Regardless of your political leanings, we should all be ashamed by the state of our government.

Greg

[ElvisMerckx]

You presume that historical precedence is law. Actually the funding bill would have to include that provision and the President has to sign it, no guarantee.

Ha, call me out when I'm proved wrong.

[oldpotatoe]

I too am a little nervous about flying if this continues -- i'm slated to head out to vegas on the 31st with plans of riding at Red Rock Canyon -- I'm not even sure if it's accessible now..


'Bad guys' can rear the news too...:eek:

[Blue Jays]

Not at all impacted in my area at this time.
Will visit parks to see if gates are locked.

[prototoast]

I am an economist with the U.S. Government Accountability Agency (GAO). My agency is part of the legislative branch, and so we are funded through September 2019. Despite my agency being funded, much of our work depends on regular interaction with agencies that are affected by the shutdown (personally, my work typically involves interactions with Treasury/IRS, which are unfunded right now). In the mean time, we try to focus our attention on tasks that don't require interaction with the affected agencies, but without being able to go to the agencies, our productivity has suffered, and will only get worse the longer the shutdown lasts.

While being an agency that still has funding is absolutely preferable to being an agency whose funding has lapsed, this is just a reminder that the shutdown has negative consequences that extend even to those agencies that are still funded.

[joosttx]

On of my wife’s collegues had a court hearing in Kentucky. The judge cancelled the hearing while he was on the plane flying because his court was running out of money and they needed to focus on criminal cases


I talked to a buddy yesterday who is in the agriculture biz. One of his products is held up in the EPA. He cannot sell it or promote until the EPA approves its use. Customers are buying stuff right now for planting in the Spring. He is lossing big money.

[Plum Hill]

Long line at TSA at O’Hare last week. I would have missed my connection had the plane not had issues.

No traffic around the large AF base near me. I imagine the stores and restaurants aren’t very crowded.

Personally ticked off that federal employees are essentially locked out and still get paid. It doesn’t work that way in private industry. No work - no pay.
Tired of our elected officials playing this damned game. It’s happened too often and for too long. I hear they’re getting paychecks. In the STL metro there is one Democratic Representative. He voted to end the shutdown. All the other Representatives are Republican and voted no to ending the shutdown. All due to a contrived crisis.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I talked to a buddy yesterday who is in the agriculture biz. One of his products is held up in the EPA. He cannot sell it or promote until the EPA approves its use. Customers are buying stuff right now for planting in the Spring. He is lossing big money.

Article in the Wash Post today about a southern Virginia farmer who can’t afford seed for winter wheat because he can’t submit crop info to the federal office to get his soybean tariff payoff. Also federal offices that provide crop estimates, Etc for the ag loan industry are closed and leaving many farmers in the lurch. I think a lot of us might feel ripple effects down the road.

[Seramount]

not a quality-of-life issue, but my cave diving project is currently trying to get approval to do a reconnaissance flight over northern Mexico to identify potential sites for a dye trace study.

the flight plan needs a sign-off from the Dept of Homeland Security, but the office that would handle that is currently closed.

[OtayBW]

not a quality-of-life issue, but my cave diving project is currently trying to get approval to do a reconnaissance flight over northern Mexico to identify potential sites for a dye trace study.

the flight plan needs a sign-off from the Dept of Homeland Security, but the office that would handle that is currently closed.You'll have to tunnel under! :hello:

[bicycletricycle]

it's not

[Black Dog]

Long line at TSA at O’Hare last week. I would have missed my connection had the plane not had issues.

No traffic around the large AF base near me. I imagine the stores and restaurants aren’t very crowded.

Personally ticked off that federal employees are essentially locked out and still get paid. It doesn’t work that way in private industry. No work - no pay.
Tired of our elected officials playing this damned game. It’s happened too often and for too long. I hear they’re getting paychecks. In the STL metro there is one Democratic Representative. He voted to end the shutdown. All the other Representatives are Republican and voted no to ending the shutdown. All due to a contrived crisis.

It is not their fault. They are ready and willing to go into work. And, there are a lot of folks working with no pay, some have no choice!!! Governments are not private businesses and if some things sucks in private industry the solution is not to drag everyone down to that level it is to make things better for for those who are in a bad position. I agree about the crazy politics that are harming so many people. However, the apathy of the public makes this possible. Looking in from the outside (as a Canadian) it is hard to imagine that this can happen in a modern democracy, it seems childish. Our good cousins to the south deserve better.

[prototoast]

It is not their fault. They are ready and willing to go into work. And, there are a lot of folks working with no pay, some have no choice!!! Governments are not private businesses and if some things sucks in private industry the solution is not to drag everyone down to that level it is to make things better for for those who are in a bad position. I agree about the crazy politics that are harming so many people. However, the apathy of the public makes this possible. Looking in from the outside (as a Canadian) it is hard to imagine that this can happen in a modern democracy, it seems childish. Our good cousins to the south deserve better.

I would also add that back pay for these workers is not guaranteed. Historically, they have been paid, but it requires special legislation to approve. One can think of these as essentially retention payments, which do occur in the private sector, because there would be a mass exodus of pissed off workers if they lost out on weeks (or potentially months) of pay.

[djg]

I’ve been out since the 28th.

I’m relatively fortunate — as a middle-aged guy with savings, I’m able to cover my family’s needs out of investments. That doesn’t mean that this is costless, even to me; rather, I’m not stuck, as so many are, without funds to cover rent or a mortgage.

It’s interesting to see this thread but I’d rather not riff — at least here and now— on the way this effects me or, more important, the work my colleagues and I ordinarily do. It shouldn’t take much imagination to see the inefficiency in all of this, or the fact that financial juggling is not free, even for those who can juggle, or the fact that not all of us are equally able to juggle.

One point that’s come up: I think that most employees (not necessarily contractors) are reasonablely hopeful about the prospect of back pay. Hopeful, but hardly certain. There are no real assurances about that — as has been pointed out, back pay has been granted, typically, but (a) that requires an act of Congress and (b) typically does not mean always.

[echappist]

Long line at TSA at O’Hare last week. I would have missed my connection had the plane not had issues.

No traffic around the large AF base near me. I imagine the stores and restaurants aren’t very crowded.

Personally ticked off that federal employees are essentially locked out and still get paid. It doesn’t work that way in private industry. No work - no pay.
Tired of our elected officials playing this damned game. It’s happened too often and for too long. I hear they’re getting paychecks. In the STL metro there is one Democratic Representative. He voted to end the shutdown. All the other Representatives are Republican and voted no to ending the shutdown. All due to a contrived crisis.

a) that doesn't necessarily happen this time
b) it's a moot comparison, as one is either employed or laid off in the private sector. many feds cannot seek employment elsewhere in the interim. there's something called conflict of interest; hell, they can't even seek unemployment benefits until it's unconfirmed that there's no back pay

[djg]

Ha, call me out when I'm proved wrong.

Well, I guess the important thing here is that you defend your off-the-cuff bike board observation with conviction and amusement.

Ha, back at ya.

[Elefantino]

I would also add that back pay for these workers is not guaranteed. Historically, they have been paid, but it requires special legislation to approve. One can think of these as essentially retention payments, which do occur in the private sector, because there would be a mass exodus of pissed off workers if they lost out on weeks (or potentially months) of pay.
Another thing about back pay: Disbursements post-shutdown mean a fatter paycheck, which bumps workers into a higher tax bracket. My neighbor with the FBI says no one mentions that.

[Mzilliox]

If they don't open it im not paying taxes, whats the point of paying taxes to nobody?

[OtayBW]

I would also add that back pay for these workers is not guaranteed. Historically, they have been paid, but it requires special legislation to approve. One can think of these as essentially retention payments, which do occur in the private sector, because there would be a mass exodus of pissed off workers if they lost out on weeks (or potentially months) of pay.
Again - I expect to be paid back, and if not, I can afford it. To your point, the gov't would in fact have a serious 'retention' problem (certainly with me, personally) if they did not back pay. But I am indeed pretty pissed off at the good folks who will likely NOT get paid back, and who really CANNOT afford it. :butt:

[Jaybee]

Two of my good friends and riding buddies are furloughed BLM employees. They've cut way back on their recreational spending and are 70-30 whether they will get paid or not. The only lemons from lemonade is plenty of time and great weather for riding here in Denver. As stated above, precedence is that Congress will approve back pay when the government is funded, but a lot of unprecedented things have happened in our government the last couple of years.

Operationally, they are worried that no one is answering the phone on a federal land-lease permitting application, that an Americorps youth education program is probably not going to happen this summer, that a particular database revision that has been 5 years overdue isn't going to happen. They are worried that their contractors aren't getting paid period.

All of this has downstream ripple effects, and the ripples will become waves the longer it goes. If you are a US citizen and think you aren't affected, that's just shortsighted.

[ElvisMerckx]

Well, I guess the important thing here is that you defend your off-the-cuff bike board observation with conviction and amusement.

Ha, back at ya.

Seriously? My remarks are far from off the cuff. I've been in federal consulting since the '90s. I've been through many shutdowns, have lost lots of pay, seen my coworkers lose lots of pay, and seen companies nearly go out of business. And, every time, the feds get back pay. Oh, and when we finally get back to work, the feds joke about their "paid vacations" in front of me and my teammates who are facing serious financial difficulties.


So if it would make you feel better, I will concede that there's a tiny chance the feds may not get back pay for sitting at home this time around.

[93KgBike]

it's not

NASA has been forced to delay James Webb Space Telescope project goals, which is just completely unacceptable. Have we lost our keen sense of curiosity as a nation?!?!?!

I understand that the DC Trump hotel received a special funding carve-out to keep the Nat'l Park site in the building (an historic clock tower) open, while the Smithsonian, the Lincoln Memorial, and the Vietnam Vets memorial are not being staffed or cleaned, and NASA is being starved for funds.

I took my kids to Gettysburg, and it's closed! It's an outrage. :butt:

[prototoast]

Another thing about back pay: Disbursements post-shutdown mean a fatter paycheck, which bumps workers into a higher tax bracket. My neighbor with the FBI says no one mentions that.

This shouldn't matter. Shutdown time from the end of 2018 would have been paid in 2019, so assuming workers receive their back pay in 2019, it will not affect their overall taxes paid.

[eddief]

sorry, I got off topic and want to stay a member.

[AngryScientist]

sorry, I got off topic and want to stay a member.

don't go there please eddie. keep this on original topic.

[FlashUNC]

This thread is a stark reminder that a lot of folks need reminders on affect vs effect.

[AngryScientist]

This thread is a stark reminder that a lot of folks need reminders on affect vs effect.

...

Affect and effect are easy to mix up. Here’s the short version of how to use affect vs. effect. Affect is usually a verb, and it means to impact or change. Effect is usually a noun, an effect is the result of a change. Watch out! There are certain situations and fixed phrases that break the general usage rules for these words.

Now that the basics are out of the way, the time has come to learn the intricacies of how to use affect and effect effectively. Or is it affectively? If you’re lucky, it may well be a little bit of both. (For the curious, effective would mean successful in this context. And when it comes to grammar, success is the goal.)


The Difference Between Affect and Effect
Is it affect or effect? In a nutshell, affect is a verb and effect is a noun. At least (spoiler alert!), most of the time. In the majority of cases, you’ll encounter the words as these parts of speech.

So, if A affects B, B experiences the effect of A’s action.

Huh?

Imagine Ruby (A) pushes Raphael (B) into a pond. Ruby affects where Raphael is standing. Raphael being wet is the effect of Ruby’s irresistible urge to push him into a pond.

Because Ruby performed an action, that signals the use of a verb: affect. The result, or effect, of that verb is “wetness,” a noun that is probably causing Raphael a whole lot of discomfort.

Affect and effect are different parts of speech, but they sound almost identical. Sound-alike pairs like affect vs. effect are tricky because many people pronounce them as homophones, which means, well, that they sound alike. Bear/bare, here/hear, and write/right are other examples. So when it comes to writing the right word, here are the rules to help you bear the struggle.

...


When to Use Effect
Effect is a noun, and it means the result of a change. So, if an event affects your life, you will feel the event’s effect.

[djg]

Seriously? My remarks are far from off the cuff. I've been in federal consulting since the '90s. I've been through many shutdowns, have lost lots of pay, seen my coworkers lose lots of pay, and seen companies nearly go out of business. And, every time, the feds get back pay. Oh, and when we finally get back to work, the feds joke about their "paid vacations" in front of me and my teammates who are facing serious financial difficulties.

So if it would make you feel better, I will concede that there's a tiny chance the feds may not get back pay for sitting at home this time around.

I understand that many who work for contractors may be bitter about this -- and that's understandable -- but the admission doesn't make me feel better. Some will joke about "paid vacations" and some who tell that joke will mean it. But it shouldn't take much imagination to see that there are many full time federal employees for whom this is not remotely a paid vacation.

I wish you and your colleagues well in all of this. I don't for an instant imagine that you engineered it.

[93KgBike]

This thread is a stark reminder that a lot of folks need reminders on affect vs effect.

Tell that to flammable and inflammable.

There go the people; I must follow them, for I am their leader.

[echappist]

...

to be completely pedantic

effect can be used as a verb, i do so all the time

to bring things on topic

The lack of a budget effected a partial shutdown of the federal government. Effect means to bring about (as in, to elicit an effect)

Or, opening the oversized package from Competitive Cyclist effected a big smile on my face, but the purchase also effected the reduction in amount of usable space in my man cave

[Bentley]

Ha, call me out when I'm proved wrong.

I just think it’s important that folks know that it’s not a guarantee. I think there are some interesting variables/dynamics that make this particular shutdown unique, mostly there was a willingness to move on, also it’s unclear that the current environment is sensitive to the plight of the civil servant.

At the end, you are likely correct, which I am obviously in favor of.

[OtayBW]

...Or, opening the oversized package from Competitive Cyclist effected a big smile on my face, but the purchase also effected the reduction in amount of usable space in my man caveYour distinction is clear, but I personally would have used 'affected' here. It affected the amount of usable space 'communicates' better to me. My preference... :)

[marsh]

Flew back to Chicago from Ft. Lauderdale Monday. If you have TSA precheck you should be okay. Ft. Lauderdale was fine (first flight out), but at Midway the lines were way down and around the corridor, I'd say at least 3 times longer than normal. Concerned about air traffic controller burnout and FAA plane inspectors being furloughed.

[FlashUNC]

Tell that to flammable and inflammable.

Biennial vs biannual.

[verticaldoug]

Not a gov’t employee but work in DC

City itself feels like a ghost town. Traffic almost non-existent on the way too and from work.

As in my 16 mile trip takes me 25 minutes as it should and not 45 as it typically does.

Stores near home seem less crowded, im sure due to people hedging bets on this going for another couple weeks and things starting to get skint if they aren’t already.

I serve a lot of non-profit and lobbyist type groups for work. They’re holding back on projects a bit and expressing concerns.

I think in terms of TSA they’re forced to work without pay until shutdown stops, but will get back pay. Supposedly have letters from DHS to send to their creditors etc about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was in DC for 3 days of meetings. It definitely felt empty compared to normal. Flying out of US, TSA was normal as of Tuesday. More importantly, the next couple weeks are a quiet time for air travel. Dinners without reservations were no problem.


I saw on local news that DC DPW was going the extra mile to collect the trash from garbage bins on the Mall, but does not have the extra workers to pick up the trash blowing on the lawn, side walks etc. It looked pretty grungy on my morning jogs.

[cloudguy]

I'm not a fed, but a subcontractor in a govt. lab that is currently closed, so mostly twiddling my thumbs at home, while getting paid (I think). I did get 175 miles in last week, plus 11K feet of climbing, which is generally unheard for this time of year around these parts. Unseasonably warm weather we're having, which will probably be the norm in 20 years. Oh, I'm also going golfing today...but I'd rather be doing science.

[cderalow]

I was in DC for 3 days of meetings. It definitely felt empty compared to normal. Flying out of US, TSA was normal as of Tuesday. More importantly, the next couple weeks are a quiet time for air travel. Dinners without reservations were no problem.


I saw on local news that DC DPW was going the extra mile to collect the trash from garbage bins on the Mall, but does not have the extra workers to pick up the trash blowing on the lawn, side walks etc. It looked pretty grungy on my morning jogs.

Strangely, DC DPW is funded by DC proper and not through the Fed, so they're doing NPS work in an effort to show some pride in their community.


I walk by the Casa de Naranja 5-6 times a week, and the protesters out front are starting to get more plentiful.

Normally can't hear what they're yelling, but this morning I could tell it was pissed off federal workers who actually want to go back to doing their work.

[seanile]

affect vs effect

this just helped me so much, i've never been able to figure out the difference of those!
long time ago someone told me one was physical and the other emotional :confused:that didn't make any sense.

[MikeD]

Seriously? My remarks are far from off the cuff. I've been in federal consulting since the '90s. I've been through many shutdowns, have lost lots of pay, seen my coworkers lose lots of pay, and seen companies nearly go out of business. And, every time, the feds get back pay. Oh, and when we finally get back to work, the feds joke about their "paid vacations" in front of me and my teammates who are facing serious financial difficulties.





So if it would make you feel better, I will concede that there's a tiny chance the feds may not get back pay for sitting at home this time around.



To an extent, I agree with you. Government contractors and businesses and their employees that depend on government workers buying their product and services are the real losers in this. There are federal employees that live paycheck to paycheck and don't have much in the way of savings to get them through this.

The shutdown hasn't affected me yet, but if I need to fly or plan to go to a national park, etc., it will. These TSA employees calling in sick knowing they will get back pay won't get much sympathy from me.

[weaponsgrade]

Yosemite park visitors have been taking to the sides of the roads for nature breaks and the amount of human waste is causing health concerns.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/01/02/government-shutdown-forces-yosemite-to-limit-entry-to-park-due-to-trash-feces/

[cloudguy]

These TSA employees calling in sick knowing they will get back pay won't get much sympathy from me.

How long would you work in such a job without getting paid, when you are living paycheck to paycheck? Also, from what I read, the percentage of TSA workers calling in sick was at something like 4ish%, compared to 3ish% at the same time last year. Personally, I think they should all go on strike and then dare the higher-ups to enforce the no-strike the law for govt. workers.

[stev0]

I was out in Joshua Tree NP last weekend to help cleanup - there's been a strong response from the community there, and the park was pretty clean but there was still lots of trash to be picked up.

some vandals destroyed some trees and other things this week, and the park announced a full-on shutdown, but then decided to reopen again as of today - I wish the national parks would just stay closed.

it's hard to assess and understand the environmental impact of a lot of things that happen during a shutdown, and people do all sorts of dumb stuff. as I understand it, even taking dogs off trail (they eventually pee) can disrupt migratory patterns of animals living the national parks, and the off-roaders who ruined the racetrack at death valley during the 2016 shutdown come to mind as well.

the federal courts had funding to operate until tomorrow (1/11) then were able to get funding for a few more weeks, but really unclear what happens after that. i think every judge and courthouse is handling things their own way in terms of prioritizing cases. pretty worried about TSA, too.

[MikeD]

How long would you work in such a job without getting paid, when you are living paycheck to paycheck? Also, from what I read, the percentage of TSA workers calling in sick was at something like 4ish%, compared to 3ish% at the same time last year. Personally, I think they should all go on strike and then dare the higher-ups to enforce the no-strike the law for govt. workers.


I was a government employee and contractor for like 40 years before I retired (still do consulting work), so I've been through a number of shutdowns. The worst that happened was I was forced to take vacation. No shutdown to date has ever lasted that long. As I said, young employees that live paycheck to paycheck have my sympathies.

I doubt those TSA figures are accurate, seeing the long lines at the airports on the news.

[echappist]

Biennial vs biannual.

don't get me started on biweekly and bimonthly, etc

also while we are at it, people who use "writ large" to mean at large (cf. clear and evident)

Yosemite park visitors have been taking to the sides of the roads for nature breaks and the amount of human waste is causing health concerns.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/01/02/government-shutdown-forces-yosemite-to-limit-entry-to-park-due-to-trash-feces/

really is unconscionable that one wouldn't observe the park closure and choose to visit another time

so much for the rangers to pick up after the gov't reopens

I was out in Joshua Tree NP last weekend to help cleanup - there's been a strong response from the community there, and the park was pretty clean but there was still lots of trash to be picked up.

some vandals destroyed some trees and other things this week, and the park announced a full-on shutdown, but then decided to reopen again as of today - I wish the national parks would just stay closed.

it's hard to assess and understand the environmental impact of a lot of things that happen during a shutdown, and people do all sorts of dumb stuff. as I understand it, even taking dogs off trail (they eventually pee) can disrupt migratory patterns of animals living the national parks, and the off-roaders who ruined the racetrack at death valley during the 2016 shutdown come to mind as well.

the federal courts had funding to operate until tomorrow (1/11) then were able to get funding for a few more weeks, but really unclear what happens after that. i think every judge and courthouse is handling things their own way in terms of prioritizing cases. pretty worried about TSA, too.

i'm more worried about air traffic controllers

also, accuracy of weather forecast is taking a hit

[TiminVA]

It may start hitting all of us with the lack of FDA food inspections.

[OtayBW]

.Personally, I think they should all go on strike and then dare the higher-ups to enforce the no-strike the law for govt. workers.This strategy ironically seems to be at the heart of the problem.

[MikeD]

This strategy ironically seems to be at the heart of the problem.


As far as I know, we're the only country where these budget debacles cause a government shutdown. Maybe the law/constitution should be changed instead.

[OtayBW]

As far as I know, we're the only country where these budget debacles cause a government shutdown. Maybe the law/constitution should be changed instead.To me, it's not law/Constitution that needs changing....

[likebikes]

is the post office affected by the shutdown?

[echappist]

To me, it's not law/Constitution that needs changing....

it has occurred to me that the three "co-equal" branches of gov't is woefully inefficient and inadequate. the only thing nearly as fubar is how the Belgian gov't is set-up, with the Flemish and the Walloons squabbling. I think the longest for which they didn't have a gov't was a good 10 months, back in 2010

The current set-up looks good on paper, but one has to keep in mind that the over-arching theme is checks-and-balances, not smooth operation of the government. Come to think of it, the whole checks-and-balances thing don't often end up working as intended anyway... Sometimes I wish England would just take us back...

N.B. many things would have been better under British rule. For one, they got rid of slavery 50 years prior to the U.S., and they didn't have to fight a civil war over it.

My partner is Canadian, and I can't wait to gain a Canadian citizenship. Only issue is that i won't be able to keep my current job...

is the post office affected by the shutdown?

nope; they don't receive funding the way the executive departments do

[OtayBW]

it has occurred to me that the three "co-equal" branches of gov't is woefully inefficient and inadequate.Acknowledging its strengths and weaknesses, that is still a FAR stronger indictment (and 'indictment' is perhaps too strong of a characterization as well) than I would give it.

That said, your other point:
...The current set-up looks good on paper, but one has to keep in mind that the over-arching theme is checks-and-balances, not smooth operation of the government.is well-taken! Unfortunately, here lately, it is the the lack of checks-and-balances that has been largely at the root of the problem and which presents the only real, clear and present danger that I see on the horizon. My view.....

[ORMojo]

I just cancelled my 10-day trip to DC that was supposed to start Monday. The folks I need to meet with are currently shut down, and even if they reopen next week, they will be focused on regrouping and catching up, not on my needs. I'll reschedule for later in the year. Other than that, little to no noticeable impact for me personally, but the news stories here in Oregon, specific to Oregon, generally focus on the National Park and Forest Service impacts.

[echappist]

i think we only have to take a look at the other liberal democracies of the world to realize how unique a triumvirate gov't is

England (from which we derived most our legal traditions), Unitary, parliamentary
France, Unitary, parliamentary
Germany, Federal, parliamentary
Canada (similar legal framework and national identity), Federal, parliamentary
Australia (similar legal framework and national identity), Federal, parliamentary
Switzerland, Federal, parliamentary

we surely are exceptional...

[93KgBike]

One way in which the struggles and sacrifices of our ancestors are degraded is by idealizing history.

... Sometimes I wish England would just take us back...

N.B. many things would have been better under British rule. For one, they got rid of slavery 50 years prior to the U.S., and they didn't have to fight a civil war over it.

Slavery existed in Britain for 1,800 years, from the time of J. Caesar's conquest through the Norman conquest.

Bewtween 1066 and 1250 chattel slavery was transitioned to land-slavery under serfdom, which made little difference to the people in the condition of enslavement.

Britain did not truly outlaw slavery until 1843.

It outlawed the commerce in enslaving Africans in 1807 and began unwinding the legal enslavement of people in 1833, except for those groups like the East India Company that made all of there money from the slave-trade, who were permitted to continue and reimbursed through amortization.

There were still a million people enslaved in Britain in 1843, including tens of thousands of children trapped in workhouses.

Even after the end of legal enslavement in the British Isles, the massacre of the poor in British colonies continued almost unabated into the 20th century. Indians, for example, were slaughtered without restraint by the British until 1947.

My partner is Canadian, and I can't wait to gain a Canadian citizenship. Only issue is that i won't be able to keep my current job...


I'm not sure whether trading US problems for Canadian problems solves anything. Society requires participation and effort everywhere.

Canada has had its share on Conservative voter fraud problems and public corruptions issues the last few years.

Britain has had the same, with the Fox/Murdoch phone cracking scandals, Windrush or Brexit, etc.

I'm going to stay the course and keep voting and working for a stronger, healthier, more inclusive and humanistic America.

History is not narrative. It is far more interesting than that.

[makoti]

I know people out of work. Contractors, so they will NOT get back pay. They can take it out of their PTO, which mean this would be a "vacation". How nice.
Me personally, other than maybe having some patients cancel (they do it all the time, so hard to tell why), just that I have to plan my long rides differently because my favorite park to take a break for bathroom breaks & water is closed.

[echappist]

I know people out of work. Contractors, so they will NOT get back pay. They can take it out of their PTO, which mean this would be a "vacation". How nice.
Me personally, other than maybe having some patients cancel (they do it all the time, so hard to tell why), just that I have to plan my long rides differently because my favorite park to take a break for bathroom breaks & water is closed.

Hains or Great Falls?

[PaMtbRider]

I'm probably naive but can't really say the shutdown has affected me.

[cloudguy]

As far as I know, we're the only country where these budget debacles cause a government shutdown. Maybe the law/constitution should be changed instead.

Yeah, same with the debt ceiling. I think the law should be changed so that funding continues based on previous legislation, unless the congress votes to change it. The fact that this sort of "leverage" even exists is insane.

[jlwdm]

No impact on me, and I don't understand the concept of not working and getting back pay.

Jeff

[makoti]

Hains or Great Falls?

Gunston Wildlife Refuge

[sjbraun]

"Also our usual rides in Saguaro National Park there may not be possible at all, which will really piss me off."

Not to worry, the gate at Saguaro National Park was open last weekend. No services, bathrooms and visitor center were closed, but the road was open.

[Jaybee]

Yeah, same with the debt ceiling. I think the law should be changed so that funding continues based on previous legislation, unless the congress votes to change it. The fact that this sort of "leverage" even exists is insane.

We only have shutdowns because of a Carter-era AG opinion on what the government should do when funding expires, and because once that happened, both sides decided that a CR was the ultimate leverage tool.

Both parties have proposed automatic-CR legislation, and the Lankford bill in 2013 even passed the Senate, but ultimately it will never go away because it is the ultimate expression of political theater.

[avalonracing]

I realize it was a question of curiosity but "how does this affect us" is one of the big problems with the country. So many people care only about how things relate to them and don't seem to give a damn about how it screws over others. Not to say that is the case with anyone here. I mean, we are all cyclists so we are inherently great people. But even though my situation hasn't changed so far, (other than lighter traffic which is nice), I am concerned that other people are not getting paid and care that things like parks getting overrun with trash are happening.

I definitely have a viewpoint on the politics that is causing this situation but one thing some of us have learned over the past couple of years is you aren't going to change anyone's mind on a forum. Let's hope that at some point in the future we get a government that puts the country and its people before a party. It's kind of crazy to think that if we really wanted to we could work together to make life better for all its citizens... and the world.

[Clean39T]

I realize it was a question of curiosity but "how does this affect us" is one of the big problems with the country. So many people care only about how things relate to them and don't seem to give a damn about how it screws over others. Not to say that is the case with anyone here. I mean, we are all cyclists so we are inherently great people. But even though my situation hasn't changed so far, (other than lighter traffic which is nice), I am concerned that other people are not getting paid and care that things like parks getting overrun with trash are happening.

I definitely have a viewpoint on the politics that is causing this situation but one thing some of us have learned over the past couple of years is you aren't going to change anyone's mind on a forum. Let's hope that at some point in the future we get a government that puts the country and its people before a party. It's kind of crazy to think that if we really wanted to we could work together to make life better for all its citizens... and the world.Thank you for that - fully agree..

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Plum Hill]

a) that doesn't necessarily happen this time
b) it's a moot comparison, as one is either employed or laid off in the private sector. many feds cannot seek employment elsewhere in the interim. there's something called conflict of interest; hell, they can't even seek unemployment benefits until it's unconfirmed that there's no back pay

b) not necessarily.
As for unemployment, see: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-shutdown/2019/01/a-furloughed-federal-employees-guide-to-filing-for-unemployment-during-the-shutdown/

Any way you cut it, it’s wrong to take taxpayer money and give it to someone for doing nothing.
Uh, oh, just opened up another topic there....

[djg]

b) not necessarily.
As for unemployment, see: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-shutdown/2019/01/a-furloughed-federal-employees-guide-to-filing-for-unemployment-during-the-shutdown/

Any way you cut it, it’s wrong to take taxpayer money and give it to someone for doing nothing.
Uh, oh, just opened up another topic there....

The someone is a salaried professional someone who is under contract, who is subject to various obligations while furloughed (including prohibitions against moonlighting), and who is required to report back to work within 24 hours of a funding agreement (a budget, a continuing resolution, etc.).

But I do see a related point: some might find it objectionable that Congress, on the one hand, establishes, obligates, and provides for staffing federal agencies (not just with enabling statutes but with annual oversight and appropriations), as they do only to, on the other hand, here and there, suspend funding and operations for large swaths of agency activity, in what seems an arbitrary fashion, for periods of time that are known only in hindsight.

[csm]

It's made Facebook more interesting.
Some of the comments. ....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tv_vt]

I work for a USDA agency. We have funding - but the IT staff are separated into some other entity - and they are furloughed. We use computers probably 7+hours a day. All kinds of one-off software programs, etc. Have a computer problem - you are SOL. Not a good situation at all.

[slowpoke]

I realize it was a question of curiosity but "how does this affect us" is one of the big problems with the country. So many people care only about how things relate to them and don't seem to give a damn about how it screws over others.

This a million times. This is like older people voting to cut funding on schools because they don't have any kids anymore. "I got mine, screw you."

I was out in Joshua Tree NP last weekend to help cleanup - there's been a strong response from the community there, and the park was pretty clean but there was still lots of trash to be picked up.

some vandals destroyed some trees and other things this week, and the park announced a full-on shutdown, but then decided to reopen again as of today - I wish the national parks would just stay closed.

Thanks for helping out at Joshua Tree. It's a magical place for me, and it's a pity people are taking advantage of this to irresponsibly visit it. Same thing is happening with Yosemite up north, and like you, I wish they'd just shut the park down instead of letting people trash it. There's plenty of nearby BLM land where those jackasses can go instead.

[93KgBike]

The U.K. boasts the world's fifth-largest economy, but almost one in three of the country's children are growing up in poverty, according to the independent Social Metrics Commission.

And things are getting worse. The Institute for Fiscal Studies believes that child poverty could reach almost 37 percent by 2022.

Such warnings come as Britain's prepares to leave the European Union on March 29, which the Bank of England has said could shrink the economy by as much as 8 percent in about a year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/child-poverty-britain-already-problem-brexit-will-likely-make-it-n949201

Instead of shutting down the government, parliamentary systems just vote no confidence or let the bums resign... Hardly 'greener grass.'

[kophinos]

Currently being required to work without pay, all vacation time was cancelled and people are having to show up to work sick because any form of paid leave right now is not authorized.

[sitzmark]

I realize it was a question of curiosity but "how does this affect us" is one of the big problems with the country. So many people care only about how things relate to them and don't seem to give a damn about how it screws over others.

I interpreted the purpose of the thread as being an opportunity to share the hardships the shutdown was having on members and their families. Paceliners represent a diverse population so it is likely that some will be affected and some won’t. Some will be deeply affected and some inconvenienced. Asking people to share their situation doesn’t strike me as being self-absorbed.

[Joxster]

"N.B. many things would have been better under British rule. For one, they got rid of slavery 50 years prior to the U.S., and they didn't have to fight a civil war over it."

We fought our Civil War over the choice of haircut, Bowl Cut Vs Short Hair

[verticaldoug]

The U.K. boasts the world's fifth-largest economy, but almost one in three of the country's children are growing up in poverty, according to the independent Social Metrics Commission.

And things are getting worse. The Institute for Fiscal Studies believes that child poverty could reach almost 37 percent by 2022.

Such warnings come as Britain's prepares to leave the European Union on March 29, which the Bank of England has said could shrink the economy by as much as 8 percent in about a year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/child-poverty-britain-already-problem-brexit-will-likely-make-it-n949201

Instead of shutting down the government, parliamentary systems just vote no confidence or let the bums resign... Hardly 'greener grass.'

Well when >50% of the people feel the system is not working for them, they will vote to try something new.

To some extent, Britain is doing the same thing America is doing and giving up on the underclass. Failing schools and zero way out of proverty for children. The solution- more cuts to benefits. That'll teach'em.

You also cut back on the police so desperate people can more easily do desperate things. It is not surprising given this backdrop that crime and murder is up along with rampant drug use.

I feel like London is on a short road to New York of the 70's.

[Joxster]

Well when >50% of the people feel the system is not working for them, they will vote to try something new.

To some extent, Britain is doing the same thing America is doing and giving up on the underclass. Failing schools and zero way out of proverty for children. The solution- more cuts to benefits. That'll teach'em.

You also cut back on the police so desperate people can more easily do desperate things. It is not surprising given this backdrop that crime and murder is up along with rampant drug use.

I feel like London is on a short road to New York of the 70's.

Yup, the 1770's

[Peter P.]

Drove to Durango over the holidays and had planned on a midpoint stop at the petrified forest. It was gated and closed due to the shutdown.

A former coworker of mine from CT changed careers and is now a National Parks police officer at the Petrified Forest.

He said the gates are locked and he has to position his patrol vehicle on the outside of the gate to turn people around that try to enter. Then he has to face their wrath as they complain.

He did say they were allowing people to enter the park on foot and use certain trails. But invariably they are leaving huge amounts of trash.

Oooh, and it's bike related-note the bike rack in the background!

This is the scene at the park on Day 1 of the shutdown:

[verticaldoug]

Yup, the 1770's

Or the return of Dicken's children: Ignorance and Want.

[buddybikes]

Why can't self responsibility in National Parks apply, we ALL need to be proud of these natural and manmade places. Pick up your F'ing trash - bring home with you? Have a picnic in your back yard, you tend to pick up after yourselves...least sometimes.

this weekend will be the real trial, after pay was not provided to mandatory strategic people, i.e.: customs (yes we are exporting goods), TSA, air traffic controllers (need a new career, lots of jobs available when it does get paid again). I can see sick outs that could really shut things down, once businesses start to suffer, the lard(s) in Washington may get the messsage.

[Bob Ross]

"Also our usual rides in Saguaro National Park there may not be possible at all, which will really piss me off."

Not to worry, the gate at Saguaro National Park was open last weekend. No services, bathrooms and visitor center were closed, but the road was open.


Yay! Thanks for the update.

[daker13]

There were still a million people enslaved in Britain in 1843, including tens of thousands of children trapped in workhouses.

Enclosure of the commons was just slightly less inhumane than slavery. This was also the empire that thought getting an entire country hooked on opium was a great strategy for opening up new trade routes (search term, "Opium War").

[echappist]

I work for a USDA agency. We have funding - but the IT staff are separated into some other entity - and they are furloughed. We use computers probably 7+hours a day. All kinds of one-off software programs, etc. Have a computer problem - you are SOL. Not a good situation at all.
well, thank goodness that NFC service is still working


Why can't self responsibility in National Parks apply, we ALL need to be proud of these natural and manmade places. Pick up your F'ing trash - bring home with you? Have a picnic in your back yard, you tend to pick up after yourselves...least sometimes.

this weekend will be the real trial, after pay was not provided to mandatory strategic people, i.e.: customs (yes we are exporting goods), TSA, air traffic controllers (need a new career, lots of jobs available when it does get paid again). I can see sick outs that could really shut things down, once businesses start to suffer, the lard(s) in Washington may get the messsage.

that's the saddest part to see... or better yet, voluntarily stay away

worker are going without paychecks for goodness sake, and visitors want to continue as if things were normal... smh

-------------------------------------------------------------------

reading this was just downright painful... furloughed workers forced to put stuff up for sale on craigslist...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/01/10/now-craigslist-facebook-household-items-furloughed-workers-trying-make-ends-meet/?utm_term=.f86ae74f0a5e


-------------------------------------------------------------------
@93KgBike, Joxster, daker13, and verticaldoug, many thanks for the history lessons

had almost forgotten about the Inclosure laws (which were so absurd when I first read about them at the age of 10). i think my original comment was that toward their own citizens, England seemed a kinder place to live (with the more expansive social welfare system). but i did forget about the nasty stuff they did to their own people even in the 1800s (under the guise of the duplicitous "Victorian Values"), not to mention the nasty stuff they continued to do to black and brown people well into the 20th century

however, for the instant discussion, perhaps best if we limit our discussion to domestic policies?

"N.B. many things would have been better under British rule. For one, they got rid of slavery 50 years prior to the U.S., and they didn't have to fight a civil war over it."

We fought our Civil War over the choice of haircut, Bowl Cut Vs Short Hair
by we, is that Scotland, England, or Britain?

[redir]

So far not much for me. That national forests are still open for mountain biking as far as I am concerned ;)

But my wife is a research scientist and it's been a real PIA for certain things and some grants through the NSF are being threatened.

That and Spring beer labels are not going through... That my friends is a national emergency!

[summilux]

I am a huge fan of the National Park system and it makes me angry and so very, very sad that Joshua Tree is being vandalized because of the shutdown. Some a-holes even cut down a tree...

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/01/joshua-tree-national-park-close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

[AngryScientist]

I am a huge fan of the National Park system and it makes me angry and so very, very sad that Joshua Tree is being vandalized because of the shutdown. Some a-holes even cut down a tree...

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/01/joshua-tree-national-park-close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

yes, that is both enraging and massively disappointing.

[verticaldoug]

I am a huge fan of the National Park system and it makes me angry and so very, very sad that Joshua Tree is being vandalized because of the shutdown. Some a-holes even cut down a tree...

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/01/joshua-tree-national-park-close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

That's not a vandal. The gov sold the mineral rights and the job creators are clear cutting before they start digging.

[Jaybee]

That's not a vandal. The gov sold the mineral rights and the job creators are clear cutting before they start digging.

Would be funnier if not possibly true.

:)

[echappist]

I am a huge fan of the National Park system and it makes me angry and so very, very sad that Joshua Tree is being vandalized because of the shutdown. Some a-holes even cut down a tree...

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2019/01/joshua-tree-national-park-close-cleanup-repairs-vandalism-illegal-roads

more disappointing are the comments. :eek:

[kevinvc]

My father-in-law died last weekend. He and my mother-in-law have lived with us for the last several years. We need to stop his social security payments, which would otherwise have to be repaid, have them determine how my MiL's monthly payment will potentially be impacted, and apply for the one-time survivorship benefit. Called the SS office and they recorded the date of death but have no time estimate for when the new calculations will be made and checks will be stopped / adjusted. We'll have to track and eventually pay back any over payments.

Medicare is similar. They don't know when the data entry will be done and his charges stopped.

We have questions about taxes, but the IRS helpline does not seem to be staffed.

So on top of dealing with the grief and expected logistics of this, we are having additional stress and uncertainty. I can handle it; my wife and her mom... not so much.

So we're not supposed to be political, but there's only one individual who said in advance that they would happily claim the mantle for the shutdown. I know who to blame.

[witcombusa]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.

[sjbraun]

"Non-essential" government services? Get your head out of the sand. Just because the shutdown doesn't effect you right now, does not lessen its impact on others. Farmers can't get government backed loans to purchase seed and supplies for spring planting, what about the couple who's waiting for approval of a VHA loan, and soon the SNAP program runs out of funding, guess those lazy recipients can just go hungry.
The whole idea that these services are non-essential is short-sighted, wrong, and maybe just mean.

PS- if you were being sarcastic, which is always hard to discern on the web, then you may keep your head where it is, but if you're one of those people who views the government solely as a problem, then my comment stands.

Mods, if I'm getting too political or personal, please accept my apologies and delete this post.

[OtayBW]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.
How very charitable of you.......:crap:

[echappist]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.

but don't they dare cut the services you personally need

i'm glad there's a thread to expose the posters here devoid of empathy

[Seramount]

but don't they dare cut the services you personally need

i'm glad there's a thread to expose the posters here devoid of empathy

gotta love those strong, rugged individuals who never utilize government services.

bootstraps...!

[cloudguy]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.

Aren't you a clever little curmudgeon

[pbarry]

We're doomed--can't even get out of a tiny box. :eek:

[buddybikes]

I work in trade compliance, need export licenses from US Dept of Commerce, aint happening. Downstream impact, pretty large.

Don't worry, China is still making stuff and exporting to US (former) customers.

[Red Tornado]

No real impact on me yet, but it's only a matter of time if this continues.
Wife works for a non-profit that helps people using SNAP and other government aid. Her employer also gets some funding from the state government, so not sure how that will look. So far she's still getting paid.

[verticaldoug]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.

Actually, your taxes need to go up(or at least the wealthy and corporations who enjoyed the last tax cut). Our current tax dollars have already been spent, this is the part of the government that is essentially funded by borrowing.

You do realize that your statement is essentially the boy child Ignorance from Christmas Carol that Dicken's warned us about? The one to be particularly wary about, sir.

should the TSA workers not being paid walk of the job so all the terrorists the white house said came across the southern border can get on our planes?
should we release all the prisoners in Federal prisons because Federal Prison Guards are not being paid?
should we stop approving new drugs at the FDA?
if someone is at trouble at sea, should the coast guard let them drown?
......

[echappist]

Actually, your taxes need to go up(or at least the wealthy and corporations who enjoyed the last tax cut). Our current tax dollars have already been spent, this is the part of the government the is essentially funded by borrowing.

You do realize the your statement is essentially the boy child Ignorance from Christmas Carol that Dicken's warned us about? The one to be particularly wary about, sir.

should the TSA workers not being paid walk of the job so all the terrorists the white house said came across the southern border can get on our planes?
should we release all the prisoners in Federal prisons because Federal Prison Guards are not being paid?
should we stop approving new drugs at the FDA?
if someone is at trouble at sea, should the coast guard let them drown?
......

of course, to all of the above

i don't fly with you proles, so not my concern
got a private army of my own, so also a moot point
got a personal yacht with a heli, so i don't ever need no rescue

i've got mine at the Gulch, so to hell with all you bellends and tossers

PS. WIJG

/s

[CiclistiCliff]

Family friend is high level intrepeter for State Department. She’s working for free as she is the top intrepeter for a common language. Says DC is all sorts of ****ed.

A friend is an air traffic controller with the FAA. This last check was $1.49 and he’s genuinely concerned about flight safety.

[paulh]

Tell that to flammable and inflammable.


"Flammable, inflammable & nonflammable... Why are there three? Don't you think that two ought to serve the purpose? I mean either the thing flams or it doesn't!"

G. Carlin

[oldpotatoe]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.

I guess your bunker is already done, well stocked with food and ammo..ready for when the SHTF..:eek:

[Jmaxwel8]

Today on the radio I heard an ad for a job fair to hire TSA agents for $15.68/hr. Now that’s a tuff sale right now. I’m sure people are lined up around the corner to get one of those jobs

[peanutgallery]

On the positive side. I know that the CPSC will not be doing a spot check on the Roubaux/Diverge recall

[zap]

Family friend is high level intrepeter for State Department. She’s working for free as she is the top intrepeter for a common language. Says DC is all sorts of ****ed.

A friend is an air traffic controller with the FAA. This last check was $1.49 and he’s genuinely concerned about flight safety.

Not a single federal worker who is working/staying at home is doing so without pay. Bill passed and Trump is said to sign off on it.

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-shutdown/2019/01/house-passes-bill-guaranteeing-back-pay-following-shutdown/

I understand food stamp program can keeping going through February.

That said, shutdowns costs a lot of money. The last appropriated federal gig my wife had she and her staff spent over a week prepping for a shutdown. Political appointees with no real experience at anything freak out but that's another story.

[sjbraun]

"Not a single federal worker who is working/staying at home is doing so without pay. Bill passed and Trump is said to sign off on it."

None of these workers were paid yesterday. They are all at home or working without pay. Getting backpay that might happen if a fickle president doesn't change his mind, (again.)
Lots of Americans don't have savings to cover the loss of a paycheck or two. Federal workers are just like everyone else in that regard. While that speaks to other problems, you're incorrect to claim that furloughed workers are getting paid.

[commonguy001]

I was on a CMS call last Tuesday that actually happened. I was a bit shocked as I’m fairly sure they’re not getting paid and really didn’t expect it to happen. I will say that the Q&A was the most positive and friendly I remember and I’ve been on these calls for over a decade.

A bit concerned about air travel as my wife is traveling for work basically non stop for the next two months and we have a trip to the Portland/Vancouver area to look at homes already booked at the end of the month.
She bought a stack of Subway gift cards to give to TSA agents who are working without pay.

[oldpotatoe]

Not a single federal worker who is working/staying at home is doing so without pay. Bill passed and Trump is said to sign off on it.


Incorrect..that bill is to pay those not working or working without pay, a promise to pay them backpay..if donald decides to sign it. No guarantee. Meanwhile, congress and donald talking the weekend off even tho they 'can relate'...:eek:

[zap]

None of these workers were paid yesterday. They are all at home or working without pay. Getting backpay that might happen if a fickle president doesn't change his mind, (again.)
Lots of Americans don't have savings to cover the loss of a paycheck or two. Federal workers are just like everyone else in that regard. While that speaks to other problems, you're incorrect to claim that furloughed workers are getting paid.

I did not intend to diminish the stress people are going through. Long time D.C. area resident and business owner. I had a good number of federal employees who were clients and were impacted by shutdowns. Their pay was delayed so in turn was mine.

[LJohnny]

Not a single federal worker who is working/staying at home is doing so without pay. Bill passed and Trump is said to sign off on it.



https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-shutdown/2019/01/house-passes-bill-guaranteeing-back-pay-following-shutdown/



I understand food stamp program can keeping going through February.



That said, shutdowns costs a lot of money. The last appropriated federal gig my wife had she and her staff spent over a week prepping for a shutdown. Political appointees with no real experience at anything freak out but that's another story.



Certain areas of government work like bench-based research employ great number of contractors which in practice will not get back pay. One has to keep in mind that at that level being a contractor is mainly a hiring mechanism that has being deployed to be able to fulfill research positions effectively. Thus these employees, from the teams perspective, are government workers, yet will get really shafted. This situation differs a bit from IT and administrative government contractors that do report to different office and then deploy services to government locations.

[echappist]

Certain areas of government work like bench-based research employ great number of contractors which in practice will not get back pay. One has to keep in mind that at that level being a contractor is mainly a hiring mechanism that has being deployed to be able to fulfill research positions effectively. Thus these employees, from the teams perspective, are government workers, yet will get really shafted. This situation differs a bit from IT and administrative government contractors that do report to different office and then deploy services to government locations.

Exactly this

[nickl]

^^^

this is interesting, so for federal employees, you fall into three categories then?

1) not working, will not get back pay
2) not working, will get back pay
3) forced to work without pay, but will get back pay

i didnt realize that there was a category (2).

CORRECTION

Category 2. Not working, want to work but locked out.

[OtayBW]

Certain areas of government work like bench-based research employ great number of contractors which in practice will not get back pay. One has to keep in mind that at that level being a contractor is mainly a hiring mechanism that has being deployed to be able to fulfill research positions effectively. Thus these employees, from the teams perspective, are government workers, yet will get really shafted. This situation differs a bit from IT and administrative government contractors that do report to different office and then deploy services to government locations.

Exactly this
Agree.

I work with a bunch of developmentally challenged contractors who do the custodial work at my facility. They are among the hardest-working and most earnest people I've ever worked with. They will not be back-paid and they are probably among the most highly impacted folks out there. This particular situation really p!$$e$ me off....

[OtayBW]

There's a shutdown? I guess they don't call it non essential for nothing.
Does this mean we'll get a partial refund for the 'services' we are paying for but not getting? I suggest we go another level deeper as there's plenty more
I'm willing to do without.

I guess your bunker is already done, well stocked with food and ammo..ready for when the SHTF..:eek:

Oh - Sorry, I mis-read that initially and thought it was echoing something else that I was thinking. Nevermind. Thank-you....

[54ny77]

what's insane is the depth of the level of federal gov't involvement in daily life (agencies, employees, etc.) that a "shutdown" actually has an impact.

i do care if it impacts family members overseas in bad places, dealing with things most couldn't even contemplate.

[93KgBike]

Firefighters and Park Rangers are at the very top of my list of heroic honorable public service jobs.

I just saw the pictures of 4x4 tracks in the wilderness areas of Joshua Tree National Park. And the photos of trees people knocked down with their trucks.

It is so heart breaking.

Spent so much good time there.

Destruction of our wilderness is an effect of the shutdown the affects us all.

[paredown]

Agree.

I work with a bunch of developmentally challenged contractors who do the custodial work at my facility. They are among the hardest-working and most earnest people I've ever worked with. They will not be back-paid and they are probably among the most highly impacted folks out there. This particular situation really p!$$e$ me off....

I used to work as a developmentally challenged IT contractor in DC (I keed!)--and there was no pay for us on shutdowns. I don't know if there has been an update, but this article (https://federalnewsnetwork.com/management/2015/03/how-many-contractors-does-the-government-have/) in 2015 points out that the Feds/OMB have no idea of the actual number of employees affected, because most of the IT firms work as 'contract for service' and the OMB did not (does not?) keep track of the actual numbers of employees that are in the employ of contractors.

For IT, (as for the small firms doing cleaning contracts, maintenance contracts and the like), the numbers are legion, and I feel sorry for those of my old compadres that are out of work, not getting paid and will not be getting back pay...

[zap]

Edit

She bought a stack of Subway gift cards to give to TSA agents who are working without pay.

That is a nice gesture but TSA agents will have to refuse.

Maybe just leave the cards at a table ;)

[XXtwindad]

Taken together, the threads about the Dow, automation replacing jobs and the government shutdown portend ominous things ahead.

The shutdown doesn't affect me directly. But I'm reminded of a conversation I had with the owner of an ice cream shop not too long ago. He had an accent, so I asked him where he was from.

"Bosnia," he said. I told him that I had some rudimentary knowledge about the civil war that tore apart Yugoslavia, but I was curious about his experiences. He was only too happy to oblige, and pulled up a chair. We talked for close to 45 minutes. He told, in a very matter of fact way, about some truly horrific "neighbor against neighbor" stuff.

When he was done, all I could do was muster up a weak "it can't happen here" response.

He looked at me, and appeared somewhat bemused.

"Just you wait," he said. "It'll be much, much worse."

He gave me the ice cream on the house.

[CiclistiCliff]

CORRECTION

Category 2. Not working, want to work but locked out.

And they’re getting taxed into oblivion when/if it comes through.

FAA friend reminded me there’s no FAA safety inspectors performing inspections on planes.

Hope you’re not flying.

[54ny77]

As much as there is fear-mongering about similar violence happening here, relating it to what happened in their own countries (from which they escaped or left), the possibility of similar violence happening here in the U.S. is slim to none.

At least not in this lifetime. Consider where that took place: war-torn, former Soviet-bloc, poor, disfunctional nation-states. This country has so much immense wealth, too many people of varying classes have too much to lose for there to be instability like that, and an immensely powerful interconnected system of local, state and federal law enforcement, not to mention the military, is in place to mitigate that risk.

Have an acquaintance with someone who is Croatian, and heard similar stories about the past over yonder in war-torn areas. Needless to say, he left to come here to have better life and opportunity, raised a family, etc. etc.

At most, in the u.s. there will be nothing more than skirmishes between the haves and the have nots, which has been going on since....forever.



Taken together, the threads about the Dow, automation replacing jobs and the government shutdown portend ominous things ahead.

The shutdown doesn't affect me directly. But I'm reminded of a conversation I had with the owner of an ice cream shop not too long ago. He had an accent, so I asked him where he was from.

"Bosnia," he said. I told him that I had some rudimentary knowledge about the civil war that tore apart Yugoslavia, but I was curious about his experiences. He was only too happy to oblige, and pulled up a chair. We talked for close to 45 minutes. He told, in a very matter of fact way, about some truly horrific "neighbor against neighbor" stuff.

When he was done, all I could do was muster up a weak "it can't happen here" response.

He looked at me, and appeared somewhat bemused.

"Just you wait," he said. "It'll be much, much worse."

He gave me the ice cream on the house.

[XXtwindad]

As much as there is fear-mongering about similar violence happening here, relating it to what happened in their own countries (from which they escaped or left), the possibility of similar violence happening here in the U.S. is slim to none.

At least not in this lifetime. Consider where that took place: war-torn, former Soviet-bloc, poor, disfunctional nation-states. This country has so much immense wealth, too many people of varying classes have too much to lose for there to be instability like that, and am immensely powerful interconnected system of local, state and federal law enforcement, not to mention the military, is in place to mitigate that risk.

Have an acquaintance with someone who is Croatian, and heard similar stories about the past over yonder in war-torn areas. Needless to say, he left to come here to have better life and opportunity, raised a family, etc. etc.

At most, in the u.s. there will be nothing more than skirmishes between the haves and the have nots, which has been going on since....forever.

One would hope so. I don't know if you're overly optimistic.

Made for a very edifying (if disturbing) scoop of ice cream, though.

[54ny77]

I can imagine!

Yeah I'm optimistic.

Very appropos, years ago during the L.A. riots I saw firsthand the have's shutting down access to their swank neighborhoods to the have not's. Private security, paramilitary, etc. Hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to the do as I say not as I do crowd.

I literally drove past big black suburbans and trucks blocking off Bel Air and Malibu access. Was trying to get onto Sunset Blvd. off the 405 to visit friends that day. That was a big no go unless drivers license showed I lived there. Tried to go around the coast via Las Virgenes, a la Malibu then back up thru Santa Monica. Guess what? Oh yeah, no go there either.

Meanwhile, no press ever mentions that but they fawn all over the quotes of media & entertainment folks stepping in to help out amidst the "helplessness and despair." Funny, they didn't mention big dudes in flak gear and semiutomatic weapons blocking public road access to their estate neighborhoods....

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/05/movies/hollywood-reacts-to-the-riots-with-concern-and-bewilderment.html


One would hope so. I don't know if you're overly optimistic.

Made for a very edifying (if disturbing) scoop of ice cream, though.

[93KgBike]

I don't know what he told you, but Balkanize is a common term for a reason, and it predates the creation of the former Yugoslavia by at least 150 years.

Disabling the central authority of our government and undermining a system of consensus values in favor of the colloquial whims of the wealthiest and meanest segment of our population ain't gonna help the good ole USA.

[witcombusa]

I don't know what he told you, but Balkanize is a common term for a reason, and it predates the creation of the former Yugoslavia by at least 150 years.

Disabling the central authority of our government and undermining a system of consensus values in favor of the colloquial whims of the wealthiest and meanest segment of our population ain't gonna help the good ole USA.

We must live in different countries :eek:

[Bruce K]

We’re drifting guys

And not in a good way

BK

[OtayBW]

I used to work as a developmentally challenged IT contractor in DC (I keed!)--and there was no pay for us on shutdowns. I don't know if there has been an update, but this article (https://federalnewsnetwork.com/management/2015/03/how-many-contractors-does-the-government-have/) in 2015 points out that the Feds/OMB have no idea of the actual number of employees affected, because most of the IT firms work as 'contract for service' and the OMB did not (does not?) keep track of the actual numbers of employees that are in the employ of contractors.

For IT, (as for the small firms doing cleaning contracts, maintenance contracts and the like), the numbers are legion, and I feel sorry for those of my old compadres that are out of work, not getting paid and will not be getting back pay...I get what you're saying. Just to clarify, though, in my case, there is a specific program that targets hiring of developmentally challenged individuals from group homes, etc. that are otherwise not able to get work (I know you knew that...). These folks do an AWESOME JOB, each and every one of them, and I just hate to see them put in a bad way because...because of...well, because of.....nevermind. :butt:

[Plum Hill]

And they’re getting taxed into oblivion when/if it comes through.

No they won’t.
There will be a higher withholding due to the large amount of gross pay on the backpay check.
At the end of the year it will be the same gross income. Excessive taxes on that backpay check could come back in the form of a refund.

[Joxster]

I get what you're saying. Just to clarify, though, in my case, there is a specific program that targets hiring of developmentally challenged individuals from group homes, etc. that are otherwise not able to get work (I know you knew that...). These folks do an AWESOME JOB, each and every one of them, and I just hate to see them put in a bad way because...because of...well, because of.....nevermind. :butt:

I think the phrase you're looking for is

Petulant cockwomble who throws his toys out of the pram whenever he doesn't get his way, and makes everyone else suffer for it.

At least he gives the UK something to laugh at while we self destruct with Brexit

[buddybikes]

Lets get back on topic:
1. FAA isn't adequetely inspecting planes
2. food stamps may not be delivered end of month
3. Businesses exporting strategic goods requiring Govt export licensing is SHUT DOWN, this directly affects me/my company. Dept of Commerce shut down.
4. What happens if we have a natural disaster, major food recall, etc

The TV stations should focus on what is breaking down and how long it will be after turned on. My wife is a CPA, last shut down caused major disruptions to Census for Sarbanes Oxley - directly affecting one of her business who were transferring ownership.

[verticaldoug]

Lets get back on topic:
1. FAA isn't adequetely inspecting planes
2. food stamps may not be delivered end of month
3. Businesses exporting strategic goods requiring Govt export licensing is SHUT DOWN, this directly affects me/my company. Dept of Commerce shut down.
4. What happens if we have a natural disaster, major food recall, etc

The TV stations should focus on what is breaking down and how long it will be after turned on. My wife is a CPA, last shut down caused major disruptions to Census for Sarbanes Oxley - directly affecting one of her business who were transferring ownership.

On Sunday at 3:30 PM, terminal B of Houston's George Bush Intercontinental Airport checkpoint closed because of staffing issues. It will remain closed all day today. You get routed through terminal C or E.

About to get real

[oldpotatoe]

On Sunday at 3:30 PM, terminal B of Houston's George Bush Intercontinental Airport checkpoint closed because of staffing issues. It will remain closed all day today. You get routed through terminal C or E.

About to get real

The 'bad guys' of the world read this stuff, ya know...all this bloviation about 'security' and many parts of national security is furloughed..ironic and dangerous..another day in the clown car.

[verticaldoug]

Ronna McDaniel
‏Verified account @GOPChairwoman
20h20 hours ago

Smugglers are flooding our communities with drugs.

*300 Americans die each week from heroin, 90% of it comes from south of the border.

*ICE seized 2,370 lbs of fentanyl in 2017, enough to kill every American.

Democrats need to work with @realDonaldTrump to secure our border.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's parse her statement:

90% of the heroin does come from south of the border, but it enters primarily through legal checkpoints evading customs. The wall does little here, and increase spending for better detection equipment is money better spent. A lot of info on smuggling is being disclosed in the El Chapo trial in NY.

Fentanyl is primarily coming from China through the mail.
Although 300 people dying of heroin per week is a tragedy. More people are dying from fentanyl.

CDC estimates 72,287 people died of overdoses in 2017. Up 10% from the previous year. Of those 49,000 died of Opioids, of which 29,000 were fentanyl.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Heck, maybe we should just fine Purdue Pharma 5 billion for their complicity in causing the opioid crisis and use that money on the border. I think we can get bipartisan agreement on this

[OtayBW]

I think the phrase you're looking for is

Petulant cockwomble who throws his toys out of the pram whenever he doesn't get his way, and makes everyone else suffer for it.

At least he gives the UK something to laugh at while we self destruct with Brexit
Actually, no, but I'm writing that down for future use! :hello:

[echappist]

Ronna McDaniel
‏Verified account @GOPChairwoman
20h20 hours ago

Smugglers are flooding our communities with drugs.

*300 Americans die each week from heroin, 90% of it comes from south of the border.

*ICE seized 2,370 lbs of fentanyl in 2017, enough to kill every American.

Democrats need to work with @realDonaldTrump to secure our border.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's parse her statement:

90% of the heroin does come from south of the border, but it enters primarily through legal checkpoints evading customs. The wall does little here, and increase spending for better detection equipment is money better spent. A lot of info on smuggling is being disclosed in the El Chapo trial in NY.

Fentanyl is primarily coming from China through the mail.
Although 300 people dying of heroin per week is a tragedy. More people are dying from fentanyl.

CDC estimates 72,287 people died of overdoses in 2017. Up 10% from the previous year. Of those 49,000 died of Opioids, of which 29,000 were fentanyl.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Heck, maybe we should just fine Purdue Pharma 5 billion for their complicity in causing the opioid crisis and use that money on the border. I think we can get bipartisan agreement on this

their liability likely far exceeds that. a few states are going after them, and i don't think they'd be able to find many jurors amenable to their positions

$5B for "deferred prosecution" may end up seeming downright cheap, as it doesn't force them to admit culpability. personally i'd like to see them cough up $20B for all this mess. there were stories done on just how they were able to have Oxy approved. Really sordid tale

[Mzilliox]

This is how we Make America Great Again, duh. By shutting down the government, we are making things great! just you wait for all the victories coming shortly, for all of America.
"Imagine a wall, a wall so grand you can brag about it to your grandchildren, its that grand, maybe even your great grand children, because the wall is so great grand. This wall could be the Great Wall of America, I mean the "Greatest Trump Wall of America" since Gina has a great wall already. Ours is better, more great. Theirs doesn't keep out Mexicans and drugs.

Great again

[jtbadge]

We’re drifting guys

And not in a good way

BK

Drifting? From a political thread started by a moderator? It's almost like the forum rules don't mean anything.

[XXtwindad]

Drifting? From a political thread started by a
moderator? It's almost like the forum rules don't mean anything.

With JT here. Floodgates were opened up by AS. Now let 'er rip...

[cash05458]

What ever happened to the protest gene in this country? I listened to the head of the air traffic controllers talking about not getting paid. I get it...it sucks. But here is an idea: tell 'em to stuff it and don't go to work. Call a strike. Walk out in masse...shutting down air travel nationwide would take about an hour or two for the senator and congress folks to be calling in a vote from their limos...money talks and bull**** walks in this country...do something like that that is costing the real players big money and it would be over in no time.

[MikeD]

Drifting? From a political thread started by a moderator? It's almost like the forum rules don't mean anything.


Agreed. I'm tired of all the political postings on this forum.

[gdw]

Drifting? From a political thread started by a moderator? It's almost like the forum rules don't mean anything.

The initial post simply asked how the shutdown impacted forum members and also asked us to keep our political views out of the discussion. Unfortunately some members are unable to comply and chose to bore us with their political views.

[echappist]

What ever happened to the protest gene in this country? I listened to the head of the air traffic controllers talking about not getting paid. I get it...it sucks. But here is an idea: tell 'em to stuff it and don't go to work. Call a strike. Walk out in masse...shutting down air travel nationwide would take about an hour or two for the senator and congress folks to be calling in a vote from their limos...money talks and bull**** walks in this country...do something like that that is costing the real players big money and it would be over in no time.

they are still a bit concerned from what that Sainted One did in the 80s, the last time when ATCs went on strike. it would be different this time though, as there are no surplus workers who could replace those on strike

[XXtwindad]

The initial post simply asked how the shutdown impacted forum members and also asked us to keep our political views out of the discussion. Unfortunately some members are unable to comply and chose to bore us with their political views.

I think that's a tad disingenuous. The shutdown had to be precipitated by something/someone. I think it's an interesting post that implicitly invites political opinions.

[Mzilliox]

What ever happened to the protest gene in this country? I listened to the head of the air traffic controllers talking about not getting paid. I get it...it sucks. But here is an idea: tell 'em to stuff it and don't go to work. Call a strike. Walk out in masse...shutting down air travel nationwide would take about an hour or two for the senator and congress folks to be calling in a vote from their limos...money talks and bull**** walks in this country...do something like that that is costing the real players big money and it would be over in no time.

this

[Mzilliox]

Agreed. I'm tired of all the political postings on this forum.

im weirded out by this position, i mean you can not click on the thread right? the title isnt exactly mysterious. lets be adults who are adults and can talk about bikes and life at the same time, as bikes are life.

[cash05458]

they are still a bit concerned from what that Sainted One did in the 80s, the last time when ATCs went on strike. it would be different this time though, as there are no surplus workers who could replace those on strike


True...but I don't think there is a court in this land that would back up retaliations for not working without pay...I mean, unless they just want to completely tear up the fair labor standards act...then again, who knows with this lot.

[Mzilliox]

I think that's a tad disingenuous. The shutdown had to be precipitated by something/someone. I think it's an interesting post that implicitly invites political opinions.

and this.

[MikeD]

im weirded out by this position, i mean you can not click on the thread right? the title isnt exactly mysterious. lets be adults who are adults and can talk about bikes and life at the same time, as bikes are life.


You can't post in another forum? This form is supposed to be about cycling, not politics. Don't you get enough of that through the news media, Facebook, etc. without polluting this board?

[XXtwindad]

You can't post in another forum? This form is supposed to be about cycling, not politics. Don't you get enough of that through the news media, Facebook, etc. without polluting this board?

If you had a Forum exclusively devoted to tire width, chainring compatibility, and pretty bikes, membership would plummet. Guaranteed.