OT - Airline rant, a new low. Summer 2019 - even lower!

[Spaghetti Legs]

My son showed up at the airport today (with plenty of time to spare) for his flight back to California for college and found that he had been bumped to a flight 7 hours later that gets him to LA at 1 am. They said “weight restrictions” on the plane. This is United airlines. Last fall, my other son and I, flying to LA on American, had our flight delayed by over an hour while they waited for people to give up seat for the same reason, causing us to miss our connection by seconds; they literally closed the gate door in our face as I held out my boarding pass. I suspect “ weight restrictions” is a euphemism for overbooked.

Here’s a copy of the email I sent today, fat lot of good it will do. People running these companies are dirtbags.

01/06/2019

My son **** was booked on 4825 from CHO to LAX today. He arrived at the airport well ahead of time for his 1pm flight and when checking in he was told he had been bumped from his flight due to weight restrictions. He was rescheduled to a later flight without any prior notification or consent. He and my wife were told that an email was sent regarding this and a lack of reply implied consent for this change. We have no record of this communication. Despite the economy fare, I carefully chose his flight times and paid a higher fare to fit his schedule. He is now bumped to an undesirable (I’m sure with cheaper unsold seats) flight that will land him in LA in the middle of the night with limited, more expensive transportation options to get him back to campus at UCLA. He may miss some of his first day of classes because of this.

I have become accustomed to and now expect substandard and apathetic service during domestic air travel in the US but this experience is more in line with that of a used car dealership. In my mind, United Airlines has taken the lead in the race to the bottom among US domestic air service providers. We have limited choices for air travel in Charlottesville VA but I will now gladly travel to Richmond and Dulles to avoid flying with United.

[fa63]

Sorry to hear that; air travel certainly seems to be getting more complicated...

[Spaghetti Legs]

Sorry to hear that; air travel certainly seems to be getting more complicated...

Well yeah, though we did make lemonade from these lemons. Since he was around for supper time and the weather is nice, I grilled us some steaks.

[jlwdm]

Often weight restrictions have to do with head winds. I have had it happen flying to Australia.

Jeff

[saab2000]

Fly early. Fly nonstop.

Ask me how I know.

[verticaldoug]

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/bumping-oversales

what type of plane was it? Chances are if not a really small plane (<60 seats), you are entitled to compensation.
Check your email spam, and his email spam. Ask them for a copy of the email sent.
I think you can get a voucher for his next flight .

The airline usually asks for volunteers and offer a voucher/meal ticket or something in return. Since you were given none of these, and they said your non-reply was implied consent, then you should ask for cmpensation. Don't go quietly in the night.

Even in Europe were airlines and railways are required to provide compensation, they never advertise it. They are hoping you do not ask for it.

Specifically ask for the offer given to volunteers.

[AngryScientist]

it enrages me that it's now common practice for airlines to overbook flights and hope that customers either dont show or accept their travel vouchers for the inconvenience.

when neither of those things actually work out, it get's ugly, and, as a frequent flyer, i've seen some pretty heated blow-ups due to this recently.

i think it's one of the worse business practices and breeds even more ill will than ever for the airlines.

unfortunately, unless you have some high status, your letter will probably promptly hit he recycle bin.

it enrages me even more that the only real way to get any "justice" from the airlines is to take to social media and hope you get enough hits to have the airline be forced to take care of you to avoid PR disaster.

the good people of the world who just want to do the right thing, buy a ticket and get a reliable ride have just about zero power on their own.

sucks. sorry your son got the shaft, but he is certainly lucky you stuck around to take him home and feed him, especially at the horror show of LAX drop-off!

[FlashUNC]

United is an airline that thought it wasn't an awful idea to have a customer get punched in the face as a way to get him off the plane.

If my option is flying United or literally any other form of transit to get to my destination, I'm taking whatever option B is.

Gotta speak with your dollars. Strongly worded emails won't fix much.

[echappist]

Sorry to hear that; air travel certainly seems to be getting more complicated...

more like humiliating for passengers

to the OP, really sorry about this. I think the way this usually works is public shaming on twitter, and United will follow up with tail between its legs, apologizing. Doesn't make it right though...

Btw, how far away is IAD from Charlottesville driving? I arrived at IAD on an United international flight, and my destination was Philly. At the same gate was a plane headed for Charlottesville. I was remarking to my partner that the taxiing must take longer than the actual flight itself (our own flight isn't too much better in this regard). I once lived in Arlington, and I think C'ville is some 2.5 hrs away driving; so perhaps IAD is 90 minutes away?

United is an airline that thought it wasn't an awful idea to have a customer get punched in the face as a way to get him off the plane.

If my option is flying United or literally any other form of transit to get to my destination, I'm taking whatever option B is.

Gotta speak with your dollars. Strongly worded emails won't fix much.



from what i heard, AA is even worse than United. How is that even possible?

[thegunner]

Gotta speak with your dollars. Strongly worded emails won't fix much.

caveat here is that i fly a ton for work (numerous years @ 1k status / plat), but usually if i'm delayed and i send an annoyed email, they'll give me compensation beyond what i'm entitled to per the FAA. so it really depends (i guess that's part of "speaking with your dollars")

[fa63]

Fly early. Fly nonstop.



Ask me how I know.We fly Delta and Southwest a lot, and pretty much always nonstop (helps to live in Atlanta, can fly pretty much anywhere nonstop), and have been pretty lucky with our air travels (knock on wood). Loyalty seems to help too, especially with Delta.

[eddief]

a few players colluding to screw us into the ground. Why did it have to turn into this? If you're rich it might be better cuz you can ride first class, but it is still a giant cattle call on every flight. Corporations treat humans like dog crap in order to enrich investors. and interestingly enough, investors probably put up with the same BS when they fly. sheep.

[jasonification]

I just had some massive issues with United this past week!! Urghh

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[bigbill]

My company lets me direct book with Southwest. Las Vegas is the closest airport and company policy allows me to early bird book my flights so I'm usually in the "A" group boarding. They did shaft me on a trip back in June where I ended up being 6 hours late to Baltimore the evening before my son entered the Naval Academy. Six hours I can't get back. I ended up with $400 in vouchers for that delay.

On the good side, Meridiana Airlines which shut down early in 2018. In 2007 I had a flight to Olbia, Sardinia from Rome. I got bumped on a flight because of a ticketing error so they booked me on the next flight, the last seat available. I was the only non-Giro rider on the plane and sat next to Axel Merckx.

[joosttx]

Fly early. Fly nonstop.

Ask me how I know.

and never fly United

one thing to think about especially if you are not a road warrior racking up travelers points and status is to get an airplane credit card. Typically you can get some status on an airplane by using the card and some frequent flyer points. Some status does help in these unfortunate situations. When I was Diamond on Delta they would kill for me. But even Silver status (which I have now) helps.

[Jcgill]

We fly southwest every chance we get as long as they have service to our destinations and have always been pleased.
We flew Alaska Airlines to and from Hawaii in 2016 and that was probably the best flying experience i have ever had.
Last month we went back to Hawaii and booked thru Costco and our only option was united.
I will echo the concensus here and say i would rather ride a donkey to my destination than get on another united plane.
We went ohare to San Francisco and then sf to maui, return was supposed to be the same in reverse.
1. The 5 different boarding groups are ridiculous, everyone is trying to get on before their # is called.
2. The gate people treat you like a convict boarding con-air. In SF going to maui the guy at the gate had the worst attitude i have ever seen from an airport worker, and then he just flat out told people they were required to check their carry on (without ever seeing the remaining overhead bin space) which there was ample space left when the attendants closed them.
3. On the way home we went to check in at the maui airport and found out our flight maui-sf was totally canceled. (App still told us on time) Lady at the check in said “the plane is on its way here with a mechanical problem IF it makes it to the island it is going to go out of service and to the garage.” Real good choice of words. So then they shoe-horn as many of us as they can onto a flight to Denver like it is no big deal and they are doing us the favor.

[PacNW2Ford]

more like humiliating for passengers

to the OP, really sorry about this. I think the way this usually works is public shaming on twitter, and United will follow up with tail between its legs, apologizing. Doesn't make it right though...

Btw, how far away is IAD from Charlottesville driving? I arrived at IAD on an United international flight, and my destination was Philly. At the same gate was a plane headed for Charlottesville. I was remarking to my partner that the taxiing must take longer than the actual flight itself (our own flight isn't too much better in this regard). I once lived in Arlington, and I think C'ville is some 2.5 hrs away driving; so perhaps IAD is 90 minutes away?





from what i heard, AA is even worse than United. How is that even possible?

I have flown American once in the last 15 years or so. They cancelled my flight mid-trip five minutes before boarding without any warning. Note to self: never fly an airline that has a “Rebooking Center”. Then on the return trip, a phantom “Ground Stop” delayed my flight. They said “Your connecting flight isn’t going anywhere, there’s a ground stop”. I called Alaska Airlines and they said “What Ground Stop? Your plane is leaving.” Then I invaded Canada, but that’s another story.

[GonaSovereign]

I hate bad travel as much as the next person, and i do 100k or more every year. That said, when you pay more, your experience improves.

Most people expect rock-bottom prices when they fly today. And most people complain that "it never used to be like this" ... yet they forget that it used to cost a lot more to travel by plane.

The market demands cheap, so the airlines oblidge and pay staff nothing and cut everything else to the bone. If we like cheap things, we must accept the downside.

[Spaghetti Legs]

I hate bad travel as much as the next person, and i do 100k or more every year. That said, when you pay more, your experience improves.

Most people expect rock-bottom prices when they fly today. And most people complain that "it never used to be like this" ... yet they forget that it used to cost a lot more to travel by plane.

The market demands cheap, so the airlines oblidge and pay staff nothing and cut everything else to the bone. If we like cheap things, we must accept the downside.

That's the thing. I used to live in SF and would fly home to NC on a half empty plane that left on time for about $300 (maybe $500-600 in today dollars) so pretty much the same. When gas prices went up to $4 per gallon, plane tix shot up and never really came back down now with gas at $2 gallon.

I hear you folks on the non-stop flights but limited options from a small airport. Dulles is 2hr and a little change from Charlottesville. Last town I lived in, I would drive 2.5 hrs to Raleigh Durham for cheaper non-stop flights.

[pasadena]

United and American are the city buses of the air

AA was the only airline I’ve ever been on where the stewardess just kicked the garbage to the sides and never picked it up. That’s the best thing I can say about either airline.
Never use them. Never.

[weisan]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/united-profitable-but-plagued-by-public-relations-disasters.html

Reduced passenger choice
United has a long way to go to improve customer sentiment. United came in behind Alaska Airlines, American and Delta in the J.D. Power airline satisfaction survey published last May.

But will a boycott materialize? Because of years of consolidation, many passengers won't have a choice since the airline has such a large presence in its hubs in Chicago, Newark, New Jersey, and Houston, just as other big carriers dominate in their hubs. Passengers often prioritize low price above all else. And commercial airplanes have been flying fuller than ever as demand continues to grow.

The puppy's death won't ruin United's business, said Eric Schiffer, chairman of Reputation Management Consultants. It will simply create ill will toward it.

"People will fly them but with resentment," he said.

[Hakkalugi]

I work part time for an airline (not United) and weight restrictions are a significant thing in winter. I’m not a pilot, so I can’t explain with confidence the details, but we tell them exactly how many bags are on the airplane and they make calculations. Sometimes we then go take bags off. Sometimes no bags go at all. Sometimes people volunteer and leave an airplane they’ve already boarded. This is to keep airplanes flying instead of crashing, and every airplane in the world has to deal with it, regardless of airline. Bumping to another flight or having a bag delayed is much better than crashing, as far as gross generalization goes.

United has been proactive and has tried to turn the corner after the incident with Dr Dao, and they now can be pretty generous when they need volunteers to skip the flight. This plus some regulations has also made other airlines step up their customer service as well. Airlines will make every effort to get you to your destination, and the customer service agents can work some magic. Talk to them, be polite, and keep in mind the CS agents are as fried as you are, particularly this time of year and with weather impacts they are working long hours with nothing but unhappy people in their faces. I see them in the break room and know that if you treat them with kindness and respect, they will do everything they can for you. I also hear some stories about how awful people can be to another person, and it’s pretty horrible.

[bart998]

I recently flew American and paid extra for up-level economy (?) so I would be able to choose seats. When I tried to choose seats I discovered that no seats together were available (party of 3) and I had to keep the computer assigned seats. So we had to sit spread all over the cabin. When I requested a refund of the extra fee I paid because I hadn't been able to pick my seats i was told too bad... several times. I will never fly american again.

[Blue Jays]

United Breaks Guitars...among other pieces of luggage.

[rwsaunders]

+1.5M miles on USAirways years ago and after the American merger it went to hell. Tried United for a bit and then became a Delta convert and it’s been great. Agree with Houston’s credit card observation.

[rileystylee]

Maybe airlines should weigh the passengers as well as their baggage?
Then if they were over a combined weight limit ( not sure what that would be) they would have to pay the excess or not take as much.
Flight I got back from the USA to the uk on nyd had some huge (wide) people with equally large amounts of luggage....

[rrudoff]

Well I am sitting in Honolulu at 12:26 AM, flight was to leave at 11:59 PM HNL to SFO, and is delayed 2 hours. Love these red eyes where I try to sleep and then go straight to the office....They did text me at about 9 PM to tell me this, but the worst to be honest is that I did not have time to eat before checking in and there is literally nothing available in the airport, even from the gift shop which is shut and United could not be bothered to offer snacks or water as it is a weather related delay. I only fly United as they have 4 flights a day between HNL and SFO. I am a Premier member, but besides boarding early United is not my first choice, Alaska or Delta much preferred.

I do have much worse stories of course, this is just annoying. Flew Air Berlin on literally the last day they were in business in 2017-they cancelled my flight from Dusseldorf to Florence and eventually sent us to Bologna with no notice, and then had to Bus to Florence at 2 AM. For a while I thought they were not even going to supply a bus and I would need to rent a car.

[Bruce K]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

We never fly United or American. Delta first and Southwest second. Things usually go well.

My son is flying BOS to ATL this morning.

7:00AM Delta flight with just carry on only and Medallion Gold status.

He already got upgraded (3 days ago) to Comfort going down and 1st Class coming back.

Express TSA took 5 minutes this morning.

Delta+Loyalty+Early = Happy Flight (I hope)

BK

[weisan]

I work part time for an airline (not United) and weight restrictions are a significant thing in winter. I’m not a pilot, so I can’t explain with confidence the details, but we tell them exactly how many bags are on the airplane and they make calculations. Sometimes we then go take bags off. Sometimes no bags go at all. Sometimes people volunteer and leave an airplane they’ve already boarded. This is to keep airplanes flying instead of crashing, and every airplane in the world has to deal with it, regardless of airline. Bumping to another flight or having a bag delayed is much better than crashing, as far as gross generalization goes.

United has been proactive and has tried to turn the corner after the incident with Dr Dao, and they now can be pretty generous when they need volunteers to skip the flight. This plus some regulations has also made other airlines step up their customer service as well. Airlines will make every effort to get you to your destination, and the customer service agents can work some magic. Talk to them, be polite, and keep in mind the CS agents are as fried as you are, particularly this time of year and with weather impacts they are working long hours with nothing but unhappy people in their faces. I see them in the break room and know that if you treat them with kindness and respect, they will do everything they can for you. I also hear some stories about how awful people can be to another person, and it’s pretty horrible.

there are two sides to every story. thanks for providing your perspective, hakka pal.

[CNY rider]

a few players colluding to screw us into the ground. Why did it have to turn into this? If you're rich it might be better cuz you can ride first class, but it is still a giant cattle call on every flight. Corporations treat humans like dog crap in order to enrich investors. and interestingly enough, investors probably put up with the same BS when they fly. sheep.

I know more than a few dairy farmers and beef cattle ranchers.
Don’t insult them by comparing them to United Airline workers; every one of them has far more respect for their animals than the folks at United have for their passengers.

[oldpotatoe]

Sorry to hear that; air travel certainly seems to be getting more complicated...

Overbooking used to be rare, now it's SOP...margins are thin, wages are poor(ask SAAB), airlines are looking to make sure every flight is PACKED!!, and also right at max gross weight..PLUS united pretty much at bottom of those I choose..

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe airlines should weigh the passengers as well as their baggage?
Then if they were over a combined weight limit ( not sure what that would be) they would have to pay the excess or not take as much.
Flight I got back from the USA to the uk on nyd had some huge (wide) people with equally large amounts of luggage....

Is a combo of people, cargo/luggage and fuel(add to aircraft empty weight)..they take on enough fuel to get ya there plus reserve for weather. If the plane is full, and then can't get enough fuel onboard to get ya there=weight restriction(weather, winds add to these numbers)..like I said, airlines with small margins have to fly FULLFULLFULL..

[marciero]

Oh man-I'm flying tomorrow.
My last flight in Nov on AA I volunteered to be bumped from a connection for $300 with a six-hour wait. Not long enough to leave the airport but I was fine working. When they needed more volunteers they raised the offer to $600, and also increased the amount I would receive to $600. Not sure if that is standard policy but I thought that was pretty cool. Then they started asking for volunteers on the subsequent flight, also $300 but with hotel for morning flight. Would have done that too if they went higher.

Good tempering remarks by GonaSovereign and Hakkalugi. Some of us can remember when meals were a standard thing. Maybe some here can even remember the "Coffee Tea or Me" days.

[buddybikes]

Fair warning, TSA have so far been good (where my wife flew yesterday) but they are working with no pay in sight. Wouldn't surprise me to see a larger scale sick out, there have been pockets. This on a wide scale, will have devestating affects

[weisan]

I am flying back to visit my folks in Singapore later this month. Flying United.
the flight was booked more than 6 months ago.
now that I am thinking, is the connection time in SF to get on the international leg too short or gonna cause us problems? (roughly 1 hr)

[fa63]

You are braver than I am; I try to aim for 2 hours minimum on international flights if I need to make a connection. But hopefully it will all go according to plan.

By the way, if you haven't flown on a 787 before, it is a pretty cool experience. First time I flew on one, I didn't realize that I had forgotten to turn on noise cancelling on my headphones; the plane was that quiet.

I am flying back to visit my folks in Singapore later this month. Flying United.
the flight was booked more than 6 months ago.
now that I am thinking, is the connection time in SF to get on the international leg too short or gonna cause us problems? (roughly 1 hr)

[oldpotatoe]

I am flying back to visit my folks in Singapore later this month. Flying United.
the flight was booked more than 6 months ago.
now that I am thinking, is the connection time in SF to get on the international leg too short or gonna cause us problems? (roughly 1 hr)

You don't see my posts(:eek:) but if the flight from austin is delayed and you have your whole tribe(8 of ya?)..since ya gotta change terminals..I think it's gonna be real close. One thing for sure, United probably won't hold the flight for you..

[marciero]

Overbooking used to be rare, now it's SOP...margins are thin, wages are poor(ask SAAB), airlines are looking to make sure every flight is PACKED!!, and also right at max gross weight..PLUS united pretty much at bottom of those I choose..

Indeed. It is straightforward probability and statistics to predict with high probability (since number of passengers is large) both the number of people that will show up for a flight and the total weight; that is, with a small margin of error. Thus easy to find probability of overage-booking or weight. I note the weight includes the additional for passengers with luggage over 50lb or whatever it is who are charged extra. Likewise the average price for people to volunteer to be bumped. All they need to do is adjust so that the expected return of that bet is positive or even zero. Then it's like a casino/law of large numbers thing; i.e. not a gamble for the airline.

The weight thing is interesting for another reason. Planes are designed with average passenger weights plus baggage in mind. But it is a fact that people weigh more now than they did when some of these planes were designed.

[marciero]

I am flying back to visit my folks in Singapore later this month. Flying United.


Coincidence-As Wei pal already knows, I am flying to Austin.

[weisan]

Coincidence-As Wei pal already knows, I am flying to Austin.

Looking forward to us getting together! Have a safe journey and hopefully no delays!

[holliscx]

You said this was United Airlines but actually it's Air Wisconsin. Specifically, Air Wisconsin doing business as United Express. Air Wisconsin is an independent regional carrier codesharing as United Express operating on behalf of United Airlines. Only the second leg of your son's flight from United's largest hub at O'Hare was United Airlines.

Markets like Charlottesille are very susceptible to weather and issues affecting small planes. Your son was probably booked on a 50-seat Bombardier CRJ-200 vs United's Boeing 737-900 with almost 200 seats. Regional carriers are set up to lose and lead the way in customer dissatisfaction.

Sit at any regional jet gate and watch this happen to passengers flying to destinations like Little Rock. This scenario plays over and over again by regional airlines that operate regional aircraft to provide passenger air service to communities without sufficient demand to attract mainline service. It’s one of the prices you pay for living in a hamlet like C'ville.

You mentioned in your email Richmond as an alternative but there you would fly Expressjet Airlines based in College Park, Ga. to one of United's hubs. Only Dulles would give you the option to fly to LA on United nonstop if you’re willing to drive.

And when you flew with your other son last fall, you also didn’t fly American but rather American Eagle. So you could have flown one of 3 or 4 regional airlines all operating as American Eagle out of Charlottesville.

For the big airlines it’s mostly for costs. Pilot labor rates are much lower at the smaller airlines. If moving to United or American, the same pilot at the big airline would demand pay 3-4x higher. Think of it like minor/major league baseball.

For the small operator, 70-80% of the passengers on the plane are connecting someplace else. It’s CHO-Dulles-Boston for example. They’d not be able to operate CHO-DC profitably without the marketing connection into the bigger network.

The big carrier holds the cards and should be held reasonable by consumers. Essentially the big boys pay the small airline a fixed fee per hour of flying. The small guys keep their costs low to ensure profit. The big airline writes the schedule and literally controls everything about where and when they fly, also when they will cancel.

My sister-in-law was due to fly SF-Calgary on a 50 seater yesterday. They had weather in SFO. United pre-cancelled the flight to minimize delays on the larger aircraft that day.

[saab2000]

The company I work for now claims to not overbook flights, though stuff happens when cancellations and re-routes happen. Operating 4500ish flights per day will involve disruptions like mechanical events, weather events, crew illnesses or duty limitations, etc. It's not a perfect system and never will be.

Also, the airline I work for doesn't contract out any flying to partner carriers, something that can be problematic. The infamous "United" incident had, in point of fact, nothing to do with United. It took place on a partner airline airplane and was not even involving the crew. The customer in question likely knew he was in for a big payday.

Use common sense when booking flights. As mentioned, fly early. Disruptions to flight schedules increase throughout the day as crews get closer to duty limitations (like 14-hour work days, etc.) and weather is often worse in the afternoon than it is in the morning. Also, fly with as few connections as possible.

Just because a website will sell a ticket coast-to-coast that involves multiple airlines and sometimes 30 minute terminal changes doesn't mean it's a good idea. Flying non-stop might cost more but you're much more likely to get where you're going with fewer disruptions.

[weisan]

You are braver than I am; I try to aim for 2 hours minimum on international flights if I need to make a connection. But hopefully it will all go according to plan.

By the way, if you haven't flown on a 787 before, it is a pretty cool experience. First time I flew on one, I didn't realize that I had forgotten to turn on noise cancelling on my headphones; the plane was that quiet.

fa pal, yeah, I know, i didn't think about it that much at that time of the booking. I asked the lady on the phone and she was like, "it should be fine." Whatever. We will see.

No, I haven't been on a 787. I don't fly much, especially international, can't stand the long flights, it kills my back and I don't sleep well on a plane. Honestly, can't say I am looking forward to the plane ride across the ocean.

[weisan]

.

[echappist]

so if i wanted to be treated better on flights, do I get an airline company specific card or do I get a "generalist" card such as Capitale Uno?

i'd love to live in a JetBlue hub, but for the short term, i'm stuck here in PHL, hub for AA. At least for certain United destinations, I can take the code-sharing train to EWR and then hop on a direct flight. That was actually rather nice.

[speedevil]

I used to fly weekly (actually twice weekly) for 48 weeks out of the year. At the time, I flew out of O'Hare and could get most anywhere non-stop. All of that time in an airline seat got me some nice perks, but it was still a chore. Having the 1st class attendant know what drink you like when coming home on a Friday is a double-edged sword.

About 3 years ago, my wife and I flew to China to attend my business partner's son's wedding to a Chinese girl. We flew 1st class from Chicago to Shanghai on United and it was great - on time, decent food, and despite the long flight, we had wifi the entire trip. Coming back, our flight was cancelled for an unknown reason, but United rebooked us on a flight into San Francisco, and a continuation on to Chicago. Oddly, this flight to San Francisco left only an hour later then our original flight. We lost a couple of hours in SFO, but landed in Chicago a little over an hour after our original arrival time. All of this was handled very well, and I don't have any privileges on United, having flown American exclusively prior to this trip.

We flew from Shanghai to X'ian, and then took the bullet train back to Nanjing for the wedding. Awesome experience.

The China trip was great. Crossed two items off my bucket list - the Great Wall and the Terra Cotta Warriors. It is strange though, once you're out of the hotel you're in another world. Verbal communication is difficult if not impossible and I wondered what we would do if there were some type of medical emergency. Fortunately that didn't happen, and we ordered meals by pointing at photos.

New Year's eve in Shanghai was an experience - there were more people on one corner of an intersection than in the entire town we live in. Our tour guide was great and tried to teach us a few phrases, but she was mostly unsuccessful. props to her for trying, though.

Riding a bicycle atop the wall around X'ian on Christmas morning was a highlight too.

Didn't mean to turn this into a travelog, just wanted to say that sometimes airlines do get it right.

[weisan]

Speed pal, that was quite a China experiment...er...I mean experience you had. Thanks for sharing.

I went to China for the first time in 1987 to visit the ancestral village. And then again several years later on route to Tibet. Haven't been there since. My parents asked if I want to come with them to go visit while I am in Singapore, I said "no thanks" :p

[Davist]

I fly about 200k miles a year.. AA Exec Platinum (100k+) and UA Premier Platinum (enough miles but not enough $$ on UA for 100k)

I always try to fly the earliest flights out, as mentioned

I always sign up for whatever carriers notifications (text and email and call) so I can be notified as soon as possible

the regional carriers are indeed 2nd class in terms of wages/service, but if you want to get to/from secondary markets you don't have too much choice.

For "no tier status" travel, Delta is in my experience the best. (I would use them more but PHL-ATL at the beginning of every trip would be daunting, and ATL in the summer seems to always bring thunderstorms/delays)

For airlines in general, my best experience has been with Qatar or Emirates (yes I know, they're subsidized heavily)

Weight restrictions are unfortunate, I've been delayed in the Rockies during the summer a couple times overnight.

This past year 2 impactful incidents, 1 someone, sadly, died on DFW-Seoul incoming 1x/day flight leaving me a day late, and Beijing-YYZ bad switch in cockpit left an extra day in China. 1 inconvenience of a 1 hour int'l layover meant economy vs business to Seoul due to rain storm in PHL.

[Spaghetti Legs]

@holliscx and @hakkalugi et al, thank you for the insight. It looks like there is a component of true concerns for aircraft weight rather than simple overbooking. That being said, it should be easily predictable and avoidable and if not, pretty concerning that they’re pushing safety margins that closely. We’re 2/2 on weight problems flying out of this airport and when we lived here 7 years ago it never happened.

I realize these flights are contracted to other companies but if United puts their name on the aircraft and the ticket, they have responsibility for the problem.

The real issue here is the bump without consent or notification. Turns out I reported incorrectly in the OP. My wife told me last night when they showed up he was rescheduled on a flight this AM. It took some effort to get him rescheduled on a flight last night and he was going to get charged a fee to change! The fee was waived after some discussion.

I was planning on family trip to SoCal for Spring Break this year before I go up for Cali Eroica but having second thoughts now. Train to NYC is always a good bet.

[PQJ]

There is something uniquely inhumane about United States-based airline carriers.

[echappist]

I fly about 200k miles a year.. AA Exec Platinum (100k+) and UA Premier Platinum (enough miles but not enough $$ on UA for 100k)

I always try to fly the earliest flights out, as mentioned

I always sign up for whatever carriers notifications (text and email and call) so I can be notified as soon as possible

the regional carriers are indeed 2nd class in terms of wages/service, but if you want to get to/from secondary markets you don't have too much choice.

For "no tier status" travel, Delta is in my experience the best. (I would use them more but PHL-ATL at the beginning of every trip would be daunting, and ATL in the summer seems to always bring thunderstorms/delays)

For airlines in general, my best experience has been with Qatar or Emirates (yes I know, they're subsidized heavily)

Weight restrictions are unfortunate, I've been delayed in the Rockies during the summer a couple times overnight.

This past year 2 impactful incidents, 1 someone, sadly, died on DFW-Seoul incoming 1x/day flight leaving me a day late, and Beijing-YYZ bad switch in cockpit left an extra day in China. 1 inconvenience of a 1 hour int'l layover meant economy vs business to Seoul due to rain storm in PHL.

bad switch as in they didn't have two sets of pilots?

the PEK-IAD flight that was supposed to take off two days prior to my flight left the gate some 7 hours late. It was supposed to arrive ~5pm at IAD, and a 7 hour delay means SOL for all concerned. I doubt they even have that many taxis at the airport.

Also, IAD really stinks. Must have walked a good two miles going from one terminal to another. PHL also stinks, as someone eff-ed up the vehicular drop-off/ pick-up designs

On a side note. If anyone wonders what effect a trade war has, the PEK-IAD flight was half empty. A plane capable of flying ~250 passengers, there were only ~130 or so. I actually ponied up for the premium economy seats on the return flight, except it would appear most in standard economy had more room to stretch, as people were literally doing the old lie-across-three-seat routine that one rarely sees these days. My partner and I somehow ended up on the only fully-occupied consecutive seats in premium economy...

@holliscx and @hakkalugi et al, thank you for the insight. It looks like there is a component of true concerns for aircraft weight rather than simple overbooking. That being said, it should be easily predictable and avoidable and if not, pretty concerning that they’re pushing safety margins that closely. We’re 2/2 on weight problems flying out of this airport and when we lived here 7 years ago it never happened.

I realize these flights are contracted to other companies but if United puts their name on the aircraft and the ticket, they have responsibility for the problem.

The real issue here is the bump without consent or notification. Turns out I reported incorrectly in the OP. My wife told me last night when they showed up he was rescheduled on a flight this AM. It took some effort to get him rescheduled on a flight last night and he was going to get charged a fee to change! The fee was waived after some discussion.

I was planning on family trip to SoCal for Spring Break this year before I go up for Cali Eroica but having second thoughts now. Train to NYC is always a good bet.

I don't trust Amtrak outside the electrified sections of the NE Corridor. Always seem to be good for a derailment every year :eek:.

My only time riding Amtrak outside the NE Corridor, the train was late by 50 minutes going down to NC and by 4 hours on the way back up.

[Birddog]

I've been wondering which airline will be the first to allow crated live chickens to be placed in the overhead.

[speedevil]

Speed pal, that was quite a China experiment...er...I mean experience you had. Thanks for sharing.

We did the usual tourist things, yes. The full Chinese wedding was really something to see and we were very glad to be there. Tianamen (sp) Square was eerie to see, realizing what happened there not that long ago. Forbidden City too - the US is very young in comparison to other cultures and without travel you don't actually "know" that.

I've traveled to England/Scotland many times, and have several places that I really enjoyed. Hadrian's Wall, Stirling Castle, Westminster Abbey are favorites. I stayed in a pub near Tolpuddle/Affpuddle in the southwest of England and the pub itself is about 500 years old. Thinking of the conversations that took place in that room over the centuries is humbling.

Travel definitely gives you a perspective you can't really get any other way.

[Hakkalugi]

Travel definitely gives you a perspective you can't really get any other way.

This is why the hassles of flight are generally fleeting, the experience of the destination is why I get on the plane. If it’s business, it’s billable. If it’s pleasure, it’s worth the effort. I can deal with delays and uncomfortable seats, it’s not really making my life unbearable, and it’s temporary.

[Davist]

bad switch as in they didn't have two sets of pilots?




Actually, both, a mechanical "toggle" switch of some sort, and yes, the crew timed out (6 hours on ground looking for a switch) Air Canada doesn't have a hub there and sourced one from Air China.


Agreed on Amtrak assessments

This is why the hassles of flight are generally fleeting, the experience of the destination is why I get on the plane. If it’s business, it’s billable. If it’s pleasure, it’s worth the effort. I can deal with delays and uncomfortable seats, it’s not really making my life unbearable, and it’s temporary.

That's how I try to look at it as well..

[nickl]

more like humiliating for passengers

to the OP, really sorry about this. I think the way this usually works is public shaming on twitter, and United will follow up with tail between its legs, apologizing. Doesn't make it right though...

Btw, how far away is IAD from Charlottesville driving? I arrived at IAD on an United international flight, and my destination was Philly. At the same gate was a plane headed for Charlottesville. I was remarking to my partner that the taxiing must take longer than the actual flight itself (our own flight isn't too much better in this regard). I once lived in Arlington, and I think C'ville is some 2.5 hrs away driving; so perhaps IAD is 90 minutes away?





from what i heard, AA is even worse than United. How is that even possible?

It isn’t. I have flown both and AA is better than United by quite a bit if those are your only alternatives. This is confirmed by JD Power and Consumer Reports but AA is far from being the the best choice among major carriers.

[weisan]

We did the usual tourist things, yes. The full Chinese wedding was really something to see and we were very glad to be there. Tianamen (sp) Square was eerie to see, realizing what happened there not that long ago. Forbidden City too - the US is very young in comparison to other cultures and without travel you don't actually "know" that.

I've traveled to England/Scotland many times, and have several places that I really enjoyed. Hadrian's Wall, Stirling Castle, Westminster Abbey are favorites. I stayed in a pub near Tolpuddle/Affpuddle in the southwest of England and the pub itself is about 500 years old. Thinking of the conversations that took place in that room over the centuries is humbling.

Travel definitely gives you a perspective you can't really get any other way.

Indeed!
My parents like to travel and I have the privilege of tagging along on several of these trips when I was growing up. I won't be who I am today without these travels.

[ultraman6970]

overweight??? well... airlines makes their money in the cargo not in the passengers. Either way I see the OP problem, sucks :(

Anybody ever got into a lacsa planes? you can feel the extra weight in the plane at the liftoff... scary because goes down easy like a couple of feet...

[verticaldoug]

overweight??? well... airlines makes their money in the cargo not in the passengers. Either way I see the OP problem, sucks :(

Anybody ever got into a lacsa planes? you can feel the extra weight in the plane at the liftoff... scary because goes down easy like a couple of feet...


Not the majors. American has 9.4billion in passenger revenue, only 227 million in cargo revenue. America has more revenue from other line items 660million than cargo.

Cargo is only profitable because it tags along, otherwise its a deck chair on the queen mary. If airlines could stuff a passenger in the cargo hold, I am sure they'd prefer to do that....

[Bruce K]

The two times we were in Australia we flew on REX a few times. SAAB turbo props with leaky windows, pilots so young the looked like they were fresh out of high school, and severe luggage restrictions. On one flight, my wife’s bag was 2 kilos under and mine was 1 kilo over and we had to repack so they both came out correct.

Then there was Hinterland Aviation - Single engine Air Van and twin engine Beech King Air.

Loads of fun.

BK

[saab2000]

All this talk of weight is funny. Airplanes have maximum takeoff weights (among many other weight limitations) and you're either under it or over it. It's not flexible.

But if an airplane is, say, 500 overweight is it going to crash? No. But all performance data is now skewed and they were tested and certified to a certain limit and that's a hard limit. Sometimes payload is changed due to headwinds or field length or temperature or terrain in the departure airport, but the maximum weight is a hard limit.

FWIW, airplanes are almost never limited by their maximum takeoff weight. It's usually a landing weight issue far more than any of the other limits. So talk of being able to tell how heavy an airplane is from a passenger seat is funny to me. It's rare that an airplane on a domestic flight is limited by max T/O weight. I think at my former regional airline, one mentioned in this thread, I was at max gross T/O weight one time and that was on a flight to MCI from PHL and we had an alternate airport that was semi-distant from MCI, so we had to carry a fair amount of extra fuel.

[GregL]

On one flight, my wife’s bag was 2 kilos under and mine was 1 kilo over and we had to repack so they both came out correct.
United did that to my wife and I coming home from Maui. One checked bag was 1 lb. under the limit and one was 1 lb. over the limit. We were forced to move some dirty laundry from bag to bag...

Greg

[GregL]

FWIW, airplanes are almost never limited by their maximum takeoff weight. It's usually a landing weight issue far more than any of the other limits. So talk of being able to tell how heavy an airplane is from a passenger seat is funny to me. It's rare that an airplane on a domestic flight is limited by max T/O weight. I think at my former regional airline, one mentioned in this thread, I was at max gross T/O weight one time and that was on a flight to MCI from PHL and we had an alternate airport that was semi-distant from MCI, so we had to carry a fair amount of extra fuel.
That aligns with what I have been told about the CRJ200. Alternate fuel requirements causing the aircraft to exceed max landing weight necessitated offloading of pax and luggage.

Greg

[saab2000]

That aligns with what I have been told about the CRJ200. Alternate fuel requirements causing the aircraft to exceed max landing weight necessitated offloading of pax and luggage.

Greg

It was pretty rare that I actually had a reduced load, but it did happen on a few occasions. It's a very imperfect airplane though. CG was as often as not an issue, when we had to move passengers on a less than full flight from front seats to more rear seats. On full flights with not much luggage in the rear we often had to carry hundreds of pounds of ballast.

The CRJ-700 and -900 are vastly better airplanes.

[zap]

edit


Also, IAD really stinks. Must have walked a good two miles going from one terminal to another.

Oh, wait until you fly from say DCA to Toronto Pearson.

[SpokeValley]

I'm Delta Platininum, about 100k/year. Not big miles compared to some here. I've done business travel since the mid-80's.

During this period, I had premium status on AA, then on United.

Switched to SW after I got tired of the "abuse"...the combination of marginal service, bumps, etc, etc But more importantly, the general "give a ****" attitude that was consistently evident on both carriers.

Then, I transferred to another (secondary) market and SW just couldn't get me around without at least two connections so I went to Delta.

Delta is fantastic for me. I also have one of their affinity Amex's so that likely helps.

SW is my second choice if needed.

I will not fly United or AA. (And I have status at Marriott and National, both excellent.)

Now, WSJ had an article last month exactly about bumps, attached.

[Jaybee]

I'm also on airplanes with some frequency (though not as much as some here) and IME, SW is by far the most pleasant airline to fly. Caveat that DEN is my home airport and a SW hub, so there's plenty of non-stops to almost all the places I want/need to be.

The difference in employee attitude versus almost every other domestic carrier (and yes, United is the worst, a hellscape to be avoided if it all possible) is palpable.


@Saab2k - a technical question: how soon before departure do you know your alternate airport? I'm guess that it's fairly standard - X is the alternate airport for route Y to Z, but if X has weather, or is exceptionally delayed, etc., that might change?

[Clean39T]

Talk to them, be polite, and keep in mind the CS agents are as fried as you are, particularly this time of year and with weather impacts they are working long hours with nothing but unhappy people in their faces. I see them in the break room and know that if you treat them with kindness and respect, they will do everything they can for you. I also hear some stories about how awful people can be to another person, and it’s pretty horrible.

Thank you for that.

No matter how long of a day you've had, how angry you are at the corporate c-suite choices being made by the airlines, or how frustrated you are at the state of air travel in general - there is no excuse for taking that out on customer service agents or anyone on the front lines who is just trying to make it through their underpaid, overworked, short-staffed day...

.
.
.

As for the substance - I'd like to see airfare rates double or triple, and leg-room and all the rest go back where it was a decade or more ago..

[saab2000]

@Saab2k - a technical question: how soon before departure do you know your alternate airport? I'm guess that it's fairly standard - X is the alternate airport for route Y to Z, but if X has weather, or is exceptionally delayed, etc., that might change?

Usually when we get our paperwork from the dispatcher and that's an hour or less normally before departure.

Often an alternate is a legal requirement but there is little question of actually getting into the planned destination. In this case we might get Colorado Springs as an alternate even though my carrier has no service there. But we won't need it so we plan a close alternate to not have to carry an excessive amount of fuel.

In the rare case that we may actually really need the alternate it's likely that we would have two planned alternates and one might be a more distant place like Albuquerque because that's a place where we may be able to accommodate the customers better with re-routes and connections.

An example would be if Denver was forecast to have clouds at 800', mandating an alternate airport but everyone can easily operate with 800' ceilings. Conversely, if the weather is forecast to be decent but with thunderstorms developing around the arrival time we might have a more distant alternate because even though it's not required due to ceiling and visibility at our forecast time of arrival, we probably need it more than in the case of just low ceilings. Snow and fog really through things into a frenzy with alternates and Denver is a good example because there aren't any really close alternates. When I flew primarily out east you were never more than 15 minutes from a good alternate in most cases but in the mountainous west that is often not the case.

Denver gets some of the craziest weather of any airport I frequent. Mostly it's nice but when it's not nice it's really, really not nice.


As for the substance - I'd like to see airfare rates double or triple, and leg-room and all the rest go back where it was a decade or more ago..

You totally have the option - It's called Premium Economy or Economy Plus or names like this. And it's not double or triple cost either. It's quite a humane way to fly.

[Clean39T]

You totally have the option - It's called Premium Economy or Economy Plus or names like this. And it's not double or triple cost either. It's quite a humane way to fly.

But then you have to explain to your company why you are not taking the cheapest option...and the presence of the cattle-car still drags the whole thing down.

[Jaybee]

But then you have to explain to your company why you are not taking the cheapest option...and the presence of the cattle-car still drags the whole thing down.

At my company, I'm given the chance to pay the difference out of pocket if the business class experience is important to me. Part of what cycling has taught me is that I can suffer through almost anything for an hour or two, so I suck it up.

On a more philosophical level, I wonder how the airline business model would work without the cheap seats? Are there enough passengers if simple cross-country routes are $1000 minimum? Is it a general social good that the mobility offered by air travel is accessible to most people? I think that we have collectively voted by wallet that it is.

[saab2000]

The market is very competitive and there are many options out of most cities. And many cities have more than one airport option.

Want inexpensive fares? Fly Frontier or Spirit or Allegiant. Or Basic Economy on legacy carriers. Want a premium experience? Buy First Class on Delta. They’re the best US carrier IMHO. FWIW, I don’t work for Delta.

These are for-profit companies and have to adapt to market demands. Remember when bankruptcies and airline closures were common place? Thankfully, that’s far less common now. Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, etc. all gone.

[OtayBW]

I'm getting ready to go to Bangkok in 3 weeks on Qatar Air for a couple of reasons: 1) I am tired of both Delta and United, and 2) QATAR offers better seat pitch and actually shorter flight times. They do tend to have longer layover times (mine is 11 hours), but they put you up in a hotel in Doha for free, so what the hell? Twelve hours on flight 1, then take a little rest, and then ~6 hours on flight 2. Customer service is supposed to be decent on Qatar, so it will an intesting experience.

[Davist]

I'm getting ready to go to Bangkok in 3 weeks on Qatar Air for a couple of reasons: 1) I am tired of both Delta and United, and 2) QATAR offers better seat pitch and actually shorter flight times. They do tend to have longer layover times (mine is 11 hours), but they put you up in a hotel in Doha for free, so what the hell? Twelve hours on flight 1, then take a little rest, and then ~6 hours on flight 2. Customer service is supposed to be decent on Qatar, so it will an intesting experience.

I've flown Qatar to Singapore 2 or 3x, India and Australia, we have a company policy that over 8 hours you can fly business, I've also flown economy on them, you'll have a good experience. Doha airport is a little weird, but I'll let you discover that. Enjoy and safe travels!

[Red Tornado]

Prior to living in Texas, I flew Delta almost exclusively. One job had me traveling about 45% of the time, many trips to Europe, and I accumulated a ton of Skymiles. Made it to Platinum Elite. Regardless of reward program status I never really had a bad experience with them. Just the odd weather delay and I felt the airline always treated me fairly.
Fast-forward to 2018, now living in Texas for 13 years and if I want to fly out of the Waco airport, which is 2 miles from the house with free parking, it's American or nothing. Overall customer service is most def below that of Delta.

*Been bumped multiple times even though I had a confirmed seat assignment. They tried to split my family up once coming back from vacation.
*Mechanical delay at Waco forced me to miss connection at DFW. Next flight to destination was 7 hours later. Would not give me a travel voucher or even a meal voucher. Declined to let me speak with a supervisor.
*Another time boarded plane. Hub airport had weather issues so we were going to be delayed. A soon-to-arrive flight needed our gate, so instead of pushing the plane back and letting us stay in the terminal for the next several hours, they kept us on and let us sit at the holding area with no refreshments and not allowed to use the restrooms.
These are fairly recent, I could go on with lots more.

I understand that there are certain regulations, sometimes weather or legit mechanical issues come up. No problem. It's how they handle these issues with the customers that irks me.

OTOH, years ago got back home December 23 last flight of the day. Most of the bags were not on our airplane. I got in line and listened to person after person berate the poor lady at the desk while they filled out their form to have luggage delivered to their home. I noticed she would glance into the back room once in a while but never left the desk. I was dead last, stepped up to the counter, said "hi" and made small talk while I was completing the form. Figured it's not her fault why be a jerk about it? Gave her the form, she read it, told me to wait a minute, went to the area behind the desk and came out 2-3 minutes later and asked "Is this it?" It was.

[OtayBW]

I've flown Qatar to Singapore 2 or 3x, India and Australia, we have a company policy that over 8 hours you can fly business, I've also flown economy on them, you'll have a good experience. Doha airport is a little weird, but I'll let you discover that. Enjoy and safe travels!
Haha! Thanks! Im looking forward to it.

[mdeth1313]

I don't fly that often, maybe once or twice a year. I don't expect much. The only thing I've really taken issue with lately is luggage policy. With the $50+ per checked piece policy more and more people try to take everything as a carry-on. I flew Christmas week and then ended up checking our bags because there wasn't enough overhead storage. No sh-t. When you let everyone get on the plane with 1 (HUGE) carry-on, 1 personal bag (which will absolutely not fit under their seat - you know where that's going as well) plus shopping bags full of gifts/toys and other crap that also won't fit, what do you think will happen?

[verticaldoug]

s


OTOH, years ago got back home December 23 last flight of the day. Most of the bags were not on our airplane. I got in line and listened to person after person berate the poor lady at the desk while they filled out their form to have luggage delivered to their home. I noticed she would glance into the back room once in a while but never left the desk. I was dead last, stepped up to the counter, said "hi" and made small talk while I was completing the form. Figured it's not her fault why be a jerk about it? Gave her the form, she read it, told me to wait a minute, went to the area behind the desk and came out 2-3 minutes later and asked "Is this it?" It was.

I have a story like that. I was flying from Delhi to London to NYC. There was a cow on the runway at Gandhi, so the flight was delayed. I made the connection in London but my bags did not. Two days later I was leaving with family for President's week and told the woman at the desk to call me when my bags came the next day and I'd come out to pick up otherwise the bags wouldnt be delivered in time. She called, I drove out to JFK to pick up. She told me I was lucky I did not change the combinations on my locks. I had nice Aluminum Rimowas and customs wanted to check the contents. Customs were ready to snip the locks when she came and opened the trunks. I asked her why customs didn't use the TSA keys since the locks are compatible. She replied: its customs, not TSA. Sounds about par for the course.

[Bruce K]

We’ve had TSA locks cut as well. I could never figure out why Customs can’t have a set of TSA keys ready to go.

They seem to have the TSA keys in other countries.

BK

[echappist]

i thought they jammed the tip of an ink pen (or the like) into the zippers in order to part the zippers and open the trunk?

[thirdgenbird]

I was able to fly private again today.

Show up 15min prior to departure
No security
No waiting for people who can’t figure out overhead storage
No electronics embargo
Cabin lighting controls at your fingertips
The rental car is waiting right outside the jet at your destination

It ruins you.

[Louis]

I was able to fly private again today.

Show up 15min prior to departure
No security
No waiting for people who can’t figure out overhead storage
No electronics embargo
Cabin lighting controls at your fingertips
The rental car is waiting right outside the jet at your destination

It ruins you.

Glad you enjoyed it. Unfortunately, not all of us can afford this sort of luxury and have to travel down in steerage.

https://justrichest.com/wp-content/uploads/Skyacht-One-Main-Cabin-640x427.jpg

[djm]

The weight thing is interesting for another reason. Planes are designed with average passenger weights plus baggage in mind. But it is a fact that people weigh more now than they did when some of these planes were designed.
Most US airlines can use an FAA-defined standard passenger weight based on statistical analysis. These values vary with season and the FAA periodically updates them. I believe they were last updated in 2005.

[Louis]

Most US airlines can use an FAA-defined standard passenger weight based on statistical analysis. These values vary with season and the FAA periodically updates them. I believe they were last updated in 2005.

There's been a bit of a kerfuffle over this issue:

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20161020-should-obese-passengers-pay-more

[zzy]

Honestly, the total lack of security and customs for international private jet travel is kinda shocking from the stores I've heard.

[54ny77]

Wheeeeeee!

https://youtu.be/fYCQ87kGUP0

[thirdgenbird]

Glad you enjoyed it. Unfortunately, not all of us can afford this sort of luxury and have to travel down in steerage.


I can’t either, it was a company trip. The cabin was considerably smaller than pictured.

Honestly, the total lack of security and customs for international private jet travel is kinda shocking from the stores I've heard.

It would be interesting to know what security is like for international travel. It’s 100% non-existent for domestic.

[Louis]

Wheeeeeee!

https://youtu.be/fYCQ87kGUP0

OUCH !!!

Even at 10k feet that would have been exciting, but that close to the ground - wow.

Upon further review - it's fake:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dragonair-737-typhoon/

[oldpotatoe]

It was pretty rare that I actually had a reduced load, but it did happen on a few occasions. It's a very imperfect airplane though. CG was as often as not an issue, when we had to move passengers on a less than full flight from front seats to more rear seats. On full flights with not much luggage in the rear we often had to carry hundreds of pounds of ballast.

The CRJ-700 and -900 are vastly better airplanes.

I flew my jets at max gross weight+ often..the only time it was an issue was takeoffs looking at runway length on hot, humid days and also trying to stop on short runways with calm winds..but on the CV..yer going flyin regardless and yer probably gonna stop when ya get back..weight WAS a big deal but often got shot with less than the mandated 15knots excess end speed. NEVER landed past the max weight/fuel..bad juju if a wire broke.

[saab2000]

I flew my jets at max gross weight+ often..the only time it was an issue was takeoffs looking at runway length on hot, humid days and also trying to stop on short runways with calm winds..but on the CV..yer going flyin regardless and yer probably gonna stop when ya get back..weight WAS a big deal but often got shot with less than the mandated 15knots excess end speed. NEVER landed past the max weight/fuel..bad juju if a wire broke.

I'm pretty sure your jets and my jets have a slightly different mission! :D

I assume you often filled the tanks to the brim with fuel. That's rare in the airline world.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm pretty sure your jets and my jets have a slightly different mission! :D

I assume you often filled the tanks to the brim with fuel. That's rare in the airline world.

Always, yessir..and sometimes 'interesting' trying to figure out legs when going to a USAF or civilian place and getting JP-4 or jetA, instead of JP-5..read less fuel on the gauge. :eek:

[Joel]

3.25 million paid butt - in - seat miles.

On Delta.

Every week, since 1995.

Day in day out, they are the best domestically and run solid Ops globally.

Booking: what saab2000 said. First flight out! Non-stop if you are able.

Joel

[572cv]

Booking: what saab2000 said. First flight out! Non-stop if you are able.

Joel

Non stop really helps. Better to drive a reasonable distance to get a non-stop flight, which is why we go to Montreal to fly to France. First flight out is also good advice. Flight delays and weather can accumulate over the course of the day.

[Red Tornado]

The airline folk aren't the only ones who deserve a kick in the rear. Some of the passenger behavior I've seen over the years is equally as bad.

*Guy sitting in seat. Lady walks up says "you're in my seat". Guy checks ticket says "no, I'm in the right seat". Double booked. Lady tells the guy to get up and talk to the flight attendant about it. He saw through that one pretty quick and stayed put. She starts in on him about chivalry/male chauvenism. He says "Sorry, I have to get there just as bad as you". And no, the guy wasn't me. Probably could have been handled better by both parties.

*Person boards plane, stashes roller board in bin above seat 6C (picked at random), then proceeds to go to their seat in 22F. Actually witnessed a flight attendant one time stop a guy and tell him to come get his carry-on and stow it above his own seat. He was very put out at this major inconvenience.

*The person that goes to the ticket counter with no travel reservations or prior planning and uses the counter agent as their personal travel agent for the next 20 minutes, tying up one of the 2 or 3 agents to the chagrin of the 60 people in line behind them.

*Person that is in boarding group 5 and tries to sneak on with group 2.

I, along with probably many on here, could write a book. And don't get me started on the people in the TSA line......

[Clean39T]

3.25 million paid butt - in - seat miles.

On Delta.

Every week, since 1995.

Day in day out, they are the best domestically and run solid Ops globally.

Booking: what saab2000 said. First flight out! Non-stop if you are able.

Joel

Holy carp - what has had you on a plane every week for over two decades?

[saab2000]

Holy carp - what has had you on a plane every week for over two decades?

There are a lot of these professional travelers and they are the ones who keep me on nice bikes. I met one a few months ago in LAX at the hotel. He was getting ready to board his redeye flight back to Boston and he's one of these trillion mile customers of Delta and was quite knowledgeable about the business, which is smart. He was displeased that Delta is using more and more 737s on these routes instead of the older 757, which is more comfortable, at least in front, where he usually sits.

This particular customer works in sales and travels a lot. My cousin used to do the same. They are the backbone of the industry and smart airlines move mountains to keep them happy, as they should.

The best ones I've encountered are the ones who don't explode at the first disruption, but go with the flow.

[Vientomas]

The airline folk aren't the only ones who deserve a kick in the rear. Some of the passenger behavior I've seen over the years is equally as bad.

*Guy sitting in seat. Lady walks up says "you're in my seat". Guy checks ticket says "no, I'm in the right seat". Double booked. Lady tells the guy to get up and talk to the flight attendant about it. He saw through that one pretty quick and stayed put. She starts in on him about chivalry/male chauvenism. He says "Sorry, I have to get there just as bad as you". And no, the guy wasn't me. Probably could have been handled better by both parties.

*Person boards plane, stashes roller board in bin above seat 6C (picked at random), then proceeds to go to their seat in 22F. Actually witnessed a flight attendant one time stop a guy and tell him to come get his carry-on and stow it above his own seat. He was very put out at this major inconvenience.

*The person that goes to the ticket counter with no travel reservations or prior planning and uses the counter agent as their personal travel agent for the next 20 minutes, tying up one of the 2 or 3 agents to the chagrin of the 60 people in line behind them.

*Person that is in boarding group 5 and tries to sneak on with group 2.

I, along with probably many on here, could write a book. And don't get me started on the people in the TSA line......

Here is my passenger peeve..."Large" people and those with elbow control issues. I paid for my seat. As I see it, the area my seat occupies, including 1/2 of the armrest, extends vertically upwards. I don't want your body parts in the space I paid for! If you can't contain yourself to your space, for whatever reason, buy two seats!

[CaptStash]

There are a lot of these professional travelers and they are the ones who keep me on nice bikes. I met one a few months ago in LAX at the hotel. He was getting ready to board his redeye flight back to Boston and he's one of these trillion mile customers of Delta and was quite knowledgeable about the business, which is smart. He was displeased that Delta is using more and more 737s on these routes instead of the older 757, which is more comfortable, at least in front, where he usually sits.

This particular customer works in sales and travels a lot. My cousin used to do the same. They are the backbone of the industry and smart airlines move mountains to keep them happy, as they should.

The best ones I've encountered are the ones who don't explode at the first disruption, but go with the flow.


Exactly. I typically fly one or two round trips a week, and can tell you that when you are a high status customer it is a completely different experience. I am a million miler on Alaska, and Platinum something or other with United - Star Alliance. Every once in a while I have to fly on an airline that isn't in the group, and I get brought back down to earth about how hard it can be. The best thing to do is grin and bear it. Yelling helps nobody.

And last - a recommendation to all that when you have the opportunity, give Alaska a try. They are one of the most pleasant groups to fly with. Just a really nice happy vibe overall. Of course they treat me exceptionally, but even in the way way back, they are pretty pleasant.

CaptStash....

[CaptStash]

Always, yessir..and sometimes 'interesting' trying to figure out legs when going to a USAF or civilian place and getting JP-4 or jetA, instead of JP-5..read less fuel on the gauge. :eek:

That is super interesting. I didn't think your jets could burn JP-4 since it has so much gasoline in it. I carried a lot of JP-5 and Jet-A back in the day (my first ship was la full load of JP-5 at Subic Bay in 1984!), and could never tell the difference. They had the same API density range, so in theory shouldn't change your fuel metering. JP-4 of course was a whole lot lighter.

CaptStash....

[verticaldoug]

another day, another drone sighting at a UK airport. (Heathrow) They really need to catch these clowns and throw away the key.

my rant for the day

[FriarQuade]

Airlines are like press fit bottom bracket standards, there's a dozen ways to do it and they all suck!

That said, Alaska is pretty freaking awesome by modern airline standards.

[Louis]

another day, another drone sighting at a UK airport. (Heathrow) They really need to catch these clowns and throw away the key.

my rant for the day

Can't really blame the airlines for this sort of thing.

[bikinchris]

3.25 million paid butt - in - seat miles.

On Delta.

Every week, since 1995.

Day in day out, they are the best domestically and run solid Ops globally.

Booking: what saab2000 said. First flight out! Non-stop if you are able.

Joel

Agreed. Delta is my favorite. Also, could I get, like maybe 250,000 miles as a present? Mr. Diamond level?

[Lanternrouge]

Exactly. I typically fly one or two round trips a week, and can tell you that when you are a high status customer it is a completely different experience. I am a million miler on Alaska, and Platinum something or other with United - Star Alliance. Every once in a while I have to fly on an airline that isn't in the group, and I get brought back down to earth about how hard it can be. The best thing to do is grin and bear it. Yelling helps nobody.

CaptStash....

It seems that if you fly enough to have the really good status, all the special treatment really does is make the travel a bit more bearable. Otherwise, you can just pay for better treatment by spending more for business/first class.

[Buzz]

To keep things in perspective:

In the summer of 1980 I flew to Europe to backpack and hostel stay for the summer. My airfare was just under $500 - on a budget charter flight. My out of state tuition at U of M was $4,500 a year. Last year we flew from SF to Venice on United for $835 round trip in June. Daughter’s tuition at U of M is currently $48,000 per year...

Air travel is imperfect but even with the occasional delays and bumps an absolute bargain relative to most other costs.

[oldpotatoe]

That is super interesting. I didn't think your jets could burn JP-4 since it has so much gasoline in it. I carried a lot of JP-5 and Jet-A back in the day (my first ship was la full load of JP-5 at Subic Bay in 1984!), and could never tell the difference. They had the same API density range, so in theory shouldn't change your fuel metering. JP-4 of course was a whole lot lighter.

CaptStash....

We used JP-4 all the time..military jet engines are pretty forgiving. Lower specific gravty or somethin meant instead of seeing 12,000 pounds on the gauge, saw like 11,200..Subic, Cubi..great times..:)

[brownhound]

That said, Alaska is pretty freaking awesome by modern airline standards.

Every carrier can have problems. This sounds worse than the OP's experience, and equal to ones I've had.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/alaska-airlines-flight-lands-30-hours-after

[OtayBW]

To keep things in perspective:

In the summer of 1980 I flew to Europe to backpack and hostel stay for the summer. My airfare was just under $500 - on a budget charter flight. My out of state tuition at U of M was $4,500 a year. Last year we flew from SF to Venice on United for $835 round trip in June. Daughter’s tuition at U of M is currently $48,000 per year...

Air travel is imperfect but even with the occasional delays and bumps an absolute bargain relative to most other costs.
It's relative, and sometimes DUMB. I recall frequently (a few years ago) flying from Baltimore to either Atlanta, or Augusta via connection through Atlanta on Delta. It always cost ~$200 more to just fly to Atlanta than it did to pick up the additional connection to Augusta. What.The.Actual.F? ....:eek:

For me, some of the biggest gripes I have with many airlines nowadays is the nickel-and-diming of benefits and services to generate revenue. Very common to see i) decreasing seat pitch and cramped conditions, usually with ii) overbooked flights, iii) increasing checked bag fees, which only exacerbates the overcrowding conditions, iv) fees charged for seat selection among other things. I'm not against generating revenue, but this 'cattlecar marketing mentality' is what gripes a lot of people and which does not instill customer loyalty among the majority of the flying public.

[tctyres]

Every carrier can have problems. This sounds worse than the OP's experience, and equal to ones I've had.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/alaska-airlines-flight-lands-30-hours-after

My flight on Alaska was cancelled yesterday from LA-NYC, so I got bumped. My friend's flight was delayed 3 hours.

[batman1425]

United - worst carrier i've had the pleasure of flying. They all have their moments, but time and time again, United's response to poor customer experiences is: meh, we have no problem filling seats. Next person?

[old_fat_and_slow]

United - worst carrier i've had the displeasure of flying. They all have their moments, but time and time again, United's response to poor customer experiences is: meh, we have no problem filling seats. Next person?

There, fixed it for you.

Agree 100% with everything you stated, especially their attitude.

[cribbit]

My flight on Alaska was cancelled yesterday from LA-NYC, so I got bumped. My friend's flight was delayed 3 hours.

Alaska almost never cancels me except for weather and when they do they've given me first class on the next flight. Sometimes you have to ask.

My SF -> NYC flight yesterday (also Alaska) was delayed 45 minutes, probably for the same reasons. They put a lot of buffer in their schedule though, we only landed 15 minutes later than scheduled.

[SpokeValley]

Here is my passenger peeve..."Large" people and those with elbow control issues. I paid for my seat. As I see it, the area my seat occupies, including 1/2 of the armrest, extends vertically upwards. I don't want your body parts in the space I paid for! If you can't contain yourself to your space, for whatever reason, buy two seats!

LOL, boy, can I relate...and agree.

I try to adhere to the unwritten rule that the middle seat gets most of the armrest. But most people haven't gotten the memo.

[SpokeValley]

Slight drift...

Nice op/ed in the WSJ this morning about Herb Kelleher. I didn't know this guy but he seemed to be a fun guy that you'd like to know. And, a man I admire for creating an airline that disrupted the industry with an irreverant approach to the business. RIP

https://www.wsj.com/articles/herb-kelleher-11546992740

[tctyres]

Alaska almost never cancels me except for weather and when they do they've given me first class on the next flight. Sometimes you have to ask.

My SF -> NYC flight yesterday (also Alaska) was delayed 45 minutes, probably for the same reasons. They put a lot of buffer in their schedule though, we only landed 15 minutes later than scheduled.

1st cancel in a long time for me. They can make up some time in the air. I'm still going to approach them about a credit toward a next flight. If your flight is delayed 3 hours, you can ask and generally will receive a credit toward a future flight.

I didn't ask about an upgrade, but I was one of the few people who had the middle seat open, so that was good.

[CaptStash]

It seems that if you fly enough to have the really good status, all the special treatment really does is make the travel a bit more bearable. Otherwise, you can just pay for better treatment by spending more for business/first class.

Absolutely! But that would be very, very expensive.

CaptStash....

[CaptStash]

We used JP-4 all the time..military jet engines are pretty forgiving. Lower specific gravty or somethin meant instead of seeing 12,000 pounds on the gauge, saw like 11,200..Subic, Cubi..great times..:)


Cubi! Good times indeed. Especially for a 21 year old bachelor. I was there for five months. Had full OC privileges. Lots of fun on and off base. Life was good. Great way to start a career.

CaptStash....

[unterhausen]

if they did make oversize people buy two seats, they would intentionally make the two seats non-contiguous.

I always feel like something's going to go wrong with United, probably because of a really poor decision they made because it was easier than figuring out a good solution to the problem at hand.

I don't see the Alaska air flight that took 30 hours as being particularly interesting. I don't want them flying when they smell burning electronics. Much worse if they took a risk and flew to a place where they have mechanics. I have been on a flight that lost a flight-critical part when we were almost to Chicago, so it was turned around to go to Denver. They had to fly under 10k feet, so it was really slow. I felt lucky to get home that day. I don't even remember the airline.

[glepore]

Slight drift...

Nice op/ed in the WSJ this morning about Herb Kelleher. I didn't know this guy but he seemed to be a fun guy that you'd like to know. And, a man I admire for creating an airline that disrupted the industry with an irreverant approach to the business. RIP

https://www.wsj.com/articles/herb-kelleher-11546992740

His obit and the story earlier in the week was awesome. Woulda liked to have met the man.

[Exonerv]

Slight drift...

Nice op/ed in the WSJ this morning about Herb Kelleher. I didn't know this guy but he seemed to be a fun guy that you'd like to know. And, a man I admire for creating an airline that disrupted the industry with an irreverant approach to the business. RIP

https://www.wsj.com/articles/herb-kelleher-11546992740Slightly further adrift...there was a great podcast on How I Built This featuring Herb Kellener. Well worth a listen:

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/04/682174446/remembering-herb-kelleher

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[joosttx]

My flight on Alaska was cancelled yesterday from LA-NYC, so I got bumped. My friend's flight was delayed 3 hours.

a guy died in the bathroom on the red-eye from SFO to PHL that I was on.

[donevwil]

Remember when planes were half smoking and half non? I have vivid memories flying SFO to ZRH in the first non-smoking row, everyone in the row ahead was chain smoking. Most miserable F'ing experience I've ever endured, but I'm still young.

[cribbit]

a guy died in the bathroom on the red-eye from SFO to PHL that I was on.

I hope he didn't turn into a giant hedgehog and go on a rampage thru the plane.

[tctyres]

a guy died in the bathroom on the red-eye from SFO to PHL that I was on.

Yeah, I'll take the bump to the next flight anytime relative to that.

I hope he didn't turn into a giant hedgehog and go on a rampage thru the plane.

Maybe the guy was killed by snakes

https://media.tenor.com/images/4584b14ec6d3dacc0b9872a0d271910b/tenor.gif

[Spaghetti Legs]

At the beginning of this thread I posted the email I sent to United and their customer service replied with an apology and told me a separate email with a travel voucher would be sent. This spring when I started to shop for a flight home from college for my son, I couldn't find the voucher and realized that yep, sure enough, United never sent the voucher. I sent them a "I saw what you did there" email and they replied with a code for a $150 voucher. Fast forward to today when I'm buying a ticket for his return flight to LA. I'm never flying United again, but he's young and tough, I figure he can handle it. I pick out the ticket and, how about that?, the voucher doesn't work for this flight, I presume because the connecting flight from our local airport is on a contract airline. Same route (probably same contract airline) he got bumped from in December.

These guys are like used car dealers. I bought him a ticket on another airline.

[Ken Robb]

At the beginning of this thread I posted the email I sent to United and their customer service replied with an apology and told me a separate email with a travel voucher would be sent. This spring when I started to shop for a flight home from college for my son, I couldn't find the voucher and realized that yep, sure enough, United never sent the voucher. I sent them a "I saw what you did there" email and they replied with a code for a $150 voucher. Fast forward to today when I'm buying a ticket for his return flight to LA. I'm never flying United again, but he's young and tough, I figure he can handle it. I pick out the ticket and, how about that?, the voucher doesn't work for this flight, I presume because the connecting flight from our local airport is on a contract airline. Same route (probably same contract airline) he got bumped from in December.

These guys are like used car dealers. I bought him a ticket on another airline.

Those of us with a love for your town wonder why ANYONE would go away to school!! :)

[Spaghetti Legs]

Those of us with a love for your town wonder why ANYONE would go away to school!! :)

Well, SoCal weather + 2500 miles away from parents (vs 1.5 miles away) is a pretty strong draw.

[tylercheung]

So far, I've been ok on Southwest (pretty punctual, find your own seat, cheap as long as you book > 2 wks out), JetBlue (never bumped, often delayed up to 1.5 hrs....), and Delta (ok so far....cross fingers)

[joosttx]

Yeah, I'll take the bump to the next flight anytime relative to that.



Maybe the guy was killed by snakes

https://media.tenor.com/images/4584b14ec6d3dacc0b9872a0d271910b/tenor.gif

Heart attack. But it was during the Ebola scare. With no sleep, naturally my mind went there.

[vqdriver]

i've written off aa, delta, and united. nothing but headaches and delays. when they do run on time, everyone is super-stressed and surly. they are literally my last choice.

[joosttx]

i've written off aa, delta, and united. nothing but headaches and delays. when they do run on time, everyone is super-stressed and surly. they are literally my last choice.

Delta has always done us right. Can’t say much for AA or United.

[JAGI410]

United has always been fine with me, but all 4 flights this week were delayed! Fargo to Denver, Denver to Albuquerque, and back. The last leg was delayed because they couldn't find a flight crew! Really makes me question my travel choices. Next few trips will be on American.

[jemoryl]

AA and United seem like they are locked in competition for the worst airlines in the world - see airlinequality.com for reviews. Delta, JetBlue and Southwest seem to be a tiny step above, but before you think those ratings only come from the disgruntled, check out the ratings for ANA or Singapore.....

[Nomadmax]

When you fly, they got you, starting at the airport; I avoid it all costs.

[oldpotatoe]

The real airline drivers may or may not chime in but the airlines, in spite of low fuel costs, play it pretty close to the bone. VERY little slop in their system, whether it be aircraft or aircrew availability. ALL flights are packed..ALL pilots fly their maximum each month..no slack..plus they count on somebody not showing up or willing to get bumped..overbook is the norm now..so if there's something that puts a bug in their 'system', this is the result, which reverberates thruout...

Called maximizing profits at the expense of the 'peeps' in the back.

[Spaghetti Legs]

The real airline drivers may or may not chime in but the airlines, in spite of low fuel costs, play it pretty close to the bone. VERY little slop in their system, whether it be aircraft or aircrew availability. ALL flights are packed..ALL pilots fly their maximum each month..no slack..plus they count on somebody not showing up or willing to get bumped..overbook is the norm now..so if there's something that puts a bug in their 'system', this is the result, which reverberates thruout...

Called maximizing profits at the expense of the 'peeps' in the back.

True - understood margins are tight and competition is fierce, but I get the sense that with some of these airlines are being run by my 9th grade shop teacher - dead eyed gate agents and a “we have you by the short hairs mentality”. For contrast I flew to Portland and back on Alaska recently. Outbound flight I got called to the ticket desk at the gate and I thought “Oh ****e, here it comes” but the agent offered to move me out of my middle seat to a window seat. The red eye flight back was delayed by a couple of hours; while we were waiting they wheeled out a cart with snacks and bottled water. Probably cost $100 or less to do that - not hard.

[oldpotatoe]

True - understood margins are tight and competition is fierce, but I get the sense that with some of these airlines are being run by my 9th grade shop teacher - dead eyed gate agents and a “we have you by the short hairs mentality”. For contrast I flew to Portland and back on Alaska recently. Outbound flight I got called to the ticket desk at the gate and I thought “Oh ****e, here it comes” but the agent offered to move me out of my middle seat to a window seat. The red eye flight back was delayed by a couple of hours; while we were waiting they wheeled out a cart with snacks and bottled water. Probably cost $100 or less to do that - not hard.

Might be the small guys want to stay small and compete with SouthWorst(:eek:)...when they grow, and get United/Delta/AA size, their service goes to ****e..seems..

Alaska is frequently at the top of customer satisfaction surveys, management seems to have a different philosophy than the money at all cost big boys..

Too bad the big boys would make more $ if they spent a few $ on things like above..it's not hard..

[Gsinill]

True - understood margins are tight and competition is fierce, but I get the sense that with some of these airlines are being run by my 9th grade shop teacher - dead eyed gate agents and a “we have you by the short hairs mentality”. For contrast I flew to Portland and back on Alaska recently. Outbound flight I got called to the ticket desk at the gate and I thought “Oh ****e, here it comes” but the agent offered to move me out of my middle seat to a window seat. The red eye flight back was delayed by a couple of hours; while we were waiting they wheeled out a cart with snacks and bottled water. Probably cost $100 or less to do that - not hard.

What competition????
TWA, Northwest, Continental, US Airways, America West, all gone.
It's the lack of competition and oversight that turned flying into a nightmare.
Whenever one of the big 3 announces some move to screw passengers, it takes less than 6 months for the others to follow.
And yes, UAL the worst, by far...

[tbike4]

but I get the sense that with some of these airlines are being run by my 9th grade shop teacher - dead eyed gate agents and a “we have you by the short hairs mentality.

^This. A couple of years ago I was going back east on United and the gate agents just seem to fumble about lacking direction on how to get people on the plane, like it was their first day on the job. I fly Southwest a lot for work and they have their problems of late but the process of turning a plane from landing and reloading just looks WAY more efficient in my experience.

[buddybikes]

Is it any different than other oligarchies (or those close to that definition) in this country? Comcast, Verizon, large banks, drug companies...

[likebikes]

isn't complaining/ranting about airlines kind of like complaining about the weather?

[Irishgirl]

isn't complaining/ranting about airlines kind of like complaining about the weather?



True statement!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unterhausen]

I flew a lot in the '80s and early '90s. There has been a marked deterioration in the experience of flying since then. They got really good at stuffing airplanes for one thing. And at smaller markets, that just means canceling flights. They know you will figure out how to make it to your destination somehow. The uncertainty and anxiety that causes just makes me wonder why anyone flies unless they have to. I'm going to France next week, and I'm already super anxious about American screwing me over.

I have a crazy idea for how airlines could increase their customer base: be a little more accommodating.

[jlwdm]

The passengers have not helped things either. Flying was special years ago but now it is like bus service in the air.

My wife started as a flight attendant for Pan Am in the glory days of flying. First class had real china, real silverware and eggs cooked to order. Few private jets so royal families and famous people were on the plane. And passengers dressed up.

Now it is all about price. Passengers wear everything under the sun, carry on all kinds of extra baggage, don't control their children and are often inconsiderate of fellow passengers. A pro golfer flying back to London a week ago from the Memphis tournament allegedly molested a sleeping woman and then peed in the aisle.

There are huge no show factors on many flights and thus overbooking is necessary to keep prices down. Bad weather in one location can cause problems across the entire country. There are no spare planes and crews able to fill in for a late flight. This creates a domino effect. Hubs like Denver and Chicago have weather issues quite often. I have been on planes in Phoenix in the summer where they had to take fuel off for us to take off.

Smaller planes are being used on many flights to keep flights full.

The bigger airlines are much more complicated than the carriers like Alaska.

I have lifetime flight benefits and I can't remember the last time I took a flight. I just remembered - under one hour flight to the Super Bowl in Houston 2017. I got a ride home with a friend.

Jeff