Some Basic Waterford Questions

[Hawker]

I've been to the Waterford site and FB page a few times but still find I have some questions...looks like there are at least a few Waterford owners here, so if you don't mind:

1. Interestingly, I can't find a price guide anywhere on their site?? That doesn't make decision making very easy. Wondering what an 853 or Stainless build would cost? Road bike, no lugs. Ball park pricing?

2. What's the difference between an 853 custom build from any of the well known builders and Waterford? Is Waterford "less custom"?

3. I'm "feeling" like perhaps Waterford may be old school in some ways...is that a fair assessment?

4. Do their frame weights compare favorably with other small builders?

5. When I search Waterford here, I find a LOT of bikes for sale. A LOT. What should I take from that? Unhappy buyers, buyers who are just moving up to something better or different?

6. Is there a Waterford owners group, forum or similar that I am missing?

I'm guessing there may be Waterford company people, dealers and owners who will read this. No offense is being made here, nor am I looking for gossip or complaints...I'm just trying to get some basic info as well as thoughts and opinions.

Thanks in advance.

[FlashUNC]

https://waterfordbikes.com/pricing/

[eddief]

so there are many bikes in the marketplace and that leads to more being for sale. Richard Schwinn both for Gunnar and Waterford prefers to work through his dealers rather than one on one like smaller builders. So you would need to get the attention and the customer service mostly through your chosen dealer. That puts a middle person between you and your "custom" bike. I do believe Waterford can do most anything a boutique can do but I think the bikes tend to be more middle of the road in uniqueness than you could arrange through a relationship with a one man shop. A fine lugged Waterford would probably be way less dough than one from finer artisans. Waterford Artisan = $2200:

https://waterfordbikes.com/22-series-artisan/

On the other hand, Waterford can do it all:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/waterfordbikes/

[Hawker]

https://waterfordbikes.com/pricing/

Thanks. I searched multiple times and couldn't find this.

[Hawker]

so there are many bikes in the marketplace and that leads to more being for sale. Richard Schwinn both for Gunnar and Waterford prefers to work through his dealers rather than one on one like smaller builders. So you would need to get the attention and the customer service mostly through your chosen dealer. That puts a middle person between you and your "custom" bike. I do believe Waterford can do most anything a boutique can do but I think the bikes tend to be more middle of the road in uniqueness than you could arrange through a relationship with a one man shop. A fine lugged Waterford would probably be way less dough than one from finer artisans.

Understood, but unfortunately they don't show any dealers in the state of GA. But I would hope they have an alternative solution for those in the same situation as I?

[eddief]

in those cases I do believe you can go direct to Waterford. But that's still not as personal as working face to face with a local builder. In fact, when I ordered a Gunnar years ago, there was a dealer nearby but requested to work directly with Richard Schwinn, he said ok, and I ended up with just what I wanted.

Understood, but unfortunately they don't show any dealers in the state of GA. But I would hope they have an alternative solution for those in the same situation as I?

[Ken Robb]

I walked into Waterford unannounced and Richard Schwinn gave me a 1+ hour tour starting with here's where we receive the tubes to here's where we pack the finished frames/forks for shipping. After I got home I bought stock RS11 and loved it. At the handbuilt show a couple of years later I spoke with Richard about what Waterford I should buy that would be better than my RS11. He told me a new 2200 or 33 frame might save me a few ounces but they wouldn't ride any better than the RS11 that I already owned and loved. Waterford is a no "BS" company that produces terrific bikes.. I always thought that a lugged Waterford in shiny black paint with stainless lugs and fork crown was one of the prettiest bikes I ever saw.

You can call Richard just like you can call Steve Hampsten, Dave Kirk, Dave wages and other good builders so see which guy makes you feel like he's "your guy".

[Ken Robb]

I almost forgot: When I explained to Richard that I had a very bad experience trying to get info from his dealer local to me he said he'd be happy to work with me to order a Waterford with any legitimate local dealer so your Georgia location may not be a problem.

[mhespenheide]

I can't comment on their dealer network or on ordering from them directly, but I can say that I bought one of their forks through the classifieds here (second-hand but otherwise unused) and was impressed with the construction and finish. If anything, I think they're underrated as a custom shop/builder, particularly given their prices.

[Clean39T]

I walked into Waterford unannounced and Richard Schwinn gave me a 1+ hour tour starting with here's where we receive the tubes to here's where we pack the finished frames/forks for shipping. After I got home I bought stock RS11 and loved it. At the handbuilt show a couple of years later I spoke with Richard about what Waterford I should buy that would be better than my RS11. He told me a new 2200 or 33 frame might save me a few ounces but they wouldn't ride any better than the RS11 that I already owned and loved. Waterford is a no "BS" company that produces terrific bikes.. I always thought that a lugged Waterford in shiny black paint with stainless lugs and fork crown was one of the prettiest bikes I ever saw.

You can call Richard just like you can call Steve Hampsten, Dave Kirk, Dave wages and other good builders so see which guy makes you feel like he's "your guy".

+1

The Boulder Road Sport I had briefly was built by Waterford and was very nicely finished from welds to paint to ride quality.

[SlowPokePete]

I bought my Waterford Frame and Fork (ST-22) almost two years ago used right here on the Paceline. It's got a stainless head tube as well as chain stays.

Last spring I found a crack in the lug at the head tube / down tube junction, and had Waterford do the repair and am so glad I did.

They make very fine bicycles in my opinion.

I know they have a new website and I've poked around a little...

Here's a few recent pics of mine, after repair and touch up (which they did an amazing job with)...

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1902/45328449525_aced69523a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9PP)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9PP) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4860/45328449215_b388cdb77c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9Jt)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9Jt) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4831/46190838812_f94d6e9961_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dnJ87C)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2dnJ87C) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

SPP

[oldpotatoe]

I've been to the Waterford site and FB page a few times but still find I have some questions...looks like there are at least a few Waterford owners here, so if you don't mind:

1. Interestingly, I can't find a price guide anywhere on their site?? That doesn't make decision making very easy. Wondering what an 853 or Stainless build would cost? Road bike, no lugs. Ball park pricing?

2. What's the difference between an 853 custom build from any of the well known builders and Waterford? Is Waterford "less custom"?

3. I'm "feeling" like perhaps Waterford may be old school in some ways...is that a fair assessment?

4. Do their frame weights compare favorably with other small builders?

5. When I search Waterford here, I find a LOT of bikes for sale. A LOT. What should I take from that? Unhappy buyers, buyers who are just moving up to something better or different?

6. Is there a Waterford owners group, forum or similar that I am missing?

I'm guessing there may be Waterford company people, dealers and owners who will read this. No offense is being made here, nor am I looking for gossip or complaints...I'm just trying to get some basic info as well as thoughts and opinions.

Thanks in advance.

1.Asked and answered:)
2.Waterford is only custom. Yes, they DO have 'stock geometry, but essentially, they are made to order.
3.He does steel only and does it very well..grandson of Ignatz(sp?) Schwinn of the old Schwinn family. He has 'modern' flares on his bikes but 'steel is real'.
4.yup..I had a R-33 on the floor as a demo with SR, nothing exotic and it weighed just under 16 pounds..aluminum cockpit and rims.
5.Waterford is a 'medium' sized builder..not direct, small, one person operation..I think he's still in the 1100-1200 frames range..and he builds for others, like BoulderBike
6.unknown

I've owned 3-4, wonderful rides, custom geometry..craftmanship on par(or better) than a lot of the old Italian/Euro 'masters'..

He WILL sell direct, BTW..do a good fit, call him, fax numbers..talk to Richard..

[marciero]

More mostly good experiences to report. I had a used Gunnar Crosshairs from ebay that I shipped back to them to have a tube replaced. The downtube had broken-completely severed, while riding. They determined that it was too rusted out and not worth repairing or not repairable. They did offer me a crash discount on a new frame, which I took them up on.
I had great communication with the contact person throughout the process. She also found me an "orphan" fork-a Crosshairs fork that had not been paired with a frame- at a discount. The only negative was the $125 re-stocking fee when I sent back the 54 to exchange for a 56, but that is on me. (That was when the "cross bikes should be a size smaller" mentality ruled, even though the bike was intended for commuter/touring/multi-use. )

As has been said, even the stock frames are made to order. I got a personalized pink sheet with the geo and other specs just like most custom builders would give you.

[Mikej]

They really are a great builder, I had a 1200 over 20 years ago. Great classic bike options,too! Love the stainless options. Be sure to post it up when you have it!

[john903]

As others have said Richard Schwinn is very personable and easy to talk to. I got mine through a dealer it was a RS1200 series with "753" tubing and Campy Chours racing triple in Sherwood Forrest green. A couple years after I had mine Richard Schwinn came to his dealers on the west coast trip and I got to meet him and still have a group photo of several of us with Richard and our various Waterfords. I remember thinking "hey this is Richard Schwinn I am talking to wow this is so cool." Anyway it was a fantastic ride and I kept it for 20 years. It was replaced with a Match built Hampsten Cinghale which is my all time favorite bike. The only issue I had with my Waterford was it was a 54 and should of been a 56 but that was my fault and is a long story. So yes Waterfords are fantastic bikes.
Have a great day

[thwart]

I've had a few Waterford bikes... enjoyed every one. I've found them generally a few ounces lighter than comparable framesets, from well known brands like Serotta... or even Pegoretti.

My wife's long term ride is a Waterford 1200 with 753 tubes.

I had a truly wonderful 753 of my own, but sold it when I moved to wider tires.

Back in the mid-'90's 23 mm was a wide tire...

[charliedid]

I've had a few Waterford bikes... enjoyed every one. I've found them generally a few ounces lighter than comparable framesets, from well known brands like Serotta... or even Pegoretti.

My wife's long term ride is a Waterford 1200 with 753 tubes.

I had a truly wonderful 753 of my own, but sold it when I moved to wider tires.

Back in the mid-'90's 23 mm was a wide tire...

Nice!

[charliedid]

I ride a couple newer Gunnars and will at some point have a custom Waterford.

To echo others, they are wonderful no nonsense bikes and a relative bargain.

Call them and ask whatever questions you might have. And yes, they will sell you a bike direct but would prefer you work through them or a qualified shop to ensure correct spec and sizing.

I'm a fan.

[thwart]

Nice!

Rode even nicer than it looked. With those Hyperons it had no problem riding with the fast crowd.

One weakness of Waterfords I've noticed over the years (and the several I've owned) is fragile paint.

Glorious to look at... but fragile. Think Italian paint.

The newer ones may have addressed that. I had a Gunnar a few yrs ago that seemed to have a more durable finish.

[Ken Robb]

Interesting comments on Waterford paint. Mine was non-metallic blue and held up very well. I have read that standard paint on Gunnars MAY be less durable but if you order a Gunnar I think you can upgrade to Waterford-level paint for extra $$. I'll bet if you asked someone at Waterford about the relative durability of their paint options you would get the straight info.

[charliedid]

Rode even nicer than it looked. With those Hyperons it had no problem riding with the fast crowd.

One weakness of Waterfords I've noticed over the years (and the several I've owned) is fragile paint.

Glorious to look at... but fragile. Think Italian paint.

The newer ones may have addressed that. I had a Gunnar a few yrs ago that seemed to have a more durable finish.

I agree about the paint as do many many others. I think one of the issues is that they want so badly to get those bikes out the door on time that they paint them and ship them ASAP instead of letting them sit for a week or so to cure.

Granted I am rather close but my last bike was in paint on a tuesday and in my hands on a thursday. That one hung for a couple months before building and out of the three I have had has the least issue with paint.

Maybe fewer coats of paint as well. If they did a Joe Bell paint job the Gunnars would be $2000 and less of a value?

I'm still a fan

[Hawker]

Impressive responses and most appreciated guys. I was thinking all 853 but have to admit that Stainless has captured my eye. And to show you how shallow I really am, I may have to spring for the cursive head badge...love it.

It sounds like Richard Schwinn exemplifies customer service. But....will he call my wife for me. :)

[Hawker]

They really are a great builder, I had a 1200 over 20 years ago. Great classic bike options,too! Love the stainless options. Be sure to post it up when you have it!

I most definitely will.

I bought my Waterford Frame and Fork (ST-22) almost two years ago used right here on the Paceline. It's got a stainless head tube as well as chain stays.

Last spring I found a crack in the lug at the head tube / down tube junction, and had Waterford do the repair and am so glad I did.

They make very fine bicycles in my opinion.

I know they have a new website and I've poked around a little...

Here's a few recent pics of mine, after repair and touch up (which they did an amazing job with)...



SPP

Gorgeous build Pete, love everything about it.

[Duende]

Love my True Temper S3 SR33. Under 16lbs too. Lives in Tucson now, for when I’m home.

Can’t say anything bad about it, and would order one again with no hesitations. I would however go for track chainstsys and a 44 head tube this time though! ;)😃

[jr59]

I bought my Waterford Frame and Fork (ST-22) almost two years ago used right here on the Paceline. It's got a stainless head tube as well as chain stays.

Last spring I found a crack in the lug at the head tube / down tube junction, and had Waterford do the repair and am so glad I did.

They make very fine bicycles in my opinion.

I know they have a new website and I've poked around a little...

Here's a few recent pics of mine, after repair and touch up (which they did an amazing job with)...

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1902/45328449525_aced69523a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9PP)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9PP) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4860/45328449215_b388cdb77c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9Jt)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2c4w9Jt) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4831/46190838812_f94d6e9961_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dnJ87C)December 8, 2018 Waterford (https://flic.kr/p/2dnJ87C) by SlowPoke Pete (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156678813@N02/), on Flickr

SPP

Nice bike, what bag is that?

[bikinchris]

Richard is a straight shooter. No BS, no hard sales pitch and will not lie to make a sale. You can trust what he says. They are a very good company to work with as far as custom. Here is a town bike he built for my customer:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/picture.php?albumid=105&pictureid=432

Personally, I have a hard time warming up to the Gunnar name, not being well schooled in Nordic legends.

[FlashUNC]

Richard is a straight shooter. No BS, no hard sales pitch and will not lie to make a sale. You can trust what he says. They are a very good company to work with as far as custom. Here is a town bike he built for my customer:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/picture.php?albumid=105&pictureid=432

Personally, I have a hard time warming up to the Gunnar name, not being well schooled in Nordic legends.

Gunnar is named after the long time shop dog, if memory serves.

[bikinchris]

Gunnar is named after the long time shop dog, if memory serves.

The shop dog was named after a famous Norse King. It means "Warrior" in Norse.

[Rudy]

I owned eleven Waterfords at one time. They punch way, way above their weight. Never a problem with paint. As mentioned, Richard Schwinn and his crew are delightful to work with.

[SlowPokePete]

Nice bike, what bag is that?

Gilles Berthoud.

SPP

[Clancy]

The shop dog was named after a famous Norse King. It means "Warrior" in Norse.

My Gunnar Hyper-X had Gunnar’s paw print as a headbadge which I really liked. The new Gunnars have a different headbadge I do believe.

[Buzz Killington]

Always wondered about Waterford. I know they make quite a few bikes, but if I’ve seen more than 1 or 2 in 20 years of riding I’d be surprised. They must sell stronger in some parts of the country than others....here in the Hudson Valley I never see them.

[maxcolumbus]

Waterford and Gunnar are both great choices.
But as mentioned here, you need a local dealer as your point
person. I think you said you are in Georgia, if you don’t
go in this direction I would highly recommend contacting
Zukas Cycles in Augusta for a more intimate builder experience.
Nate does world class work and is a great guy.
Good luck in this project!!

[Hawker]

Waterford and Gunnar are both great choices.
But as mentioned here, you need a local dealer as your point
person. I think you said you are in Georgia, if you don’t
go in this direction I would highly recommend contacting
Zukas Cycles in Augusta for a more intimate builder experience.
Nate does world class work and is a great guy.
Good luck in this project!!

Thanks Max, I'll keep this in mind.

[edward12]

I don't have a Waterford authorized dealer near me, so I ordered directly from Richard. He was absolutely great to work with. I'm very happy with my Gunnar Street Dog. I've two Waterford's in the past and the paint quality has definitely improved.

[eddief]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAi13fP-Vpw&feature=share

[sg8357]

The LBS here is a Waterford dealer, so lots of Waterfords on club rides.
I've seen dozens of them, fine paint and workmanship.
On both lugged and tigged frames.

[Hawker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAi13fP-Vpw&feature=share

I'm only a year late in thanking for this. Gorgeous bike and impressive build. I may have to make the 150 mile drive just to visit his shop some day this winter.

[Rpoole8537]

I still have a RS 1200 in black with red and silver trim, built for me in 1997! It is still beautiful. They may have been using Imron paint during that time, I cannot remember. When I tell people it is 22 yo they can’t believe it. Lugs are also sweet and well done. It rides like a luxury car. Not as stiff as my CSI, but sweet and somewhat lighter feeling. Both are 64 cm bikes, so more steel than most!

[oldpotatoe]

Understood, but unfortunately they don't show any dealers in the state of GA. But I would hope they have an alternative solution for those in the same situation as I?

Most of your questions have been answered but anyway....
I sold Waterford and Gunnar for a long time, I have owned 3. Richard and the main production guy, Mark Mueller, have been doing the bike frame thing for a long time. Richard grandson of original Schwinn.
They are old school in the sense of every Waterford is custom w/o an up charge. Made to order. Gunnar, same tubes, welders, location, just 'production' with fewer paint choices.
They know their stuff, have 'modernized' ala disc brake and thru axle stuff but they are still a premier, steel only, frame production facility.
They make 'Waterfords', along with frames for some others...Boulder Bicycle, Mikwaukee bikes, some others.

Great company run by a great guy. Yes, there are other, smaller, direct builders out there but few with the experience of Richard and his crew.

AND, they can sell direct if you don't have a dealer local. You DO need accurate numbers tho, via a bike fit.

[Hawker]

Thanks oldpotato, I actually ran into Mr. Schwinn at the Philly Expo last weekend and found him tremendously friendly and helpful. Too many good steel options these days!

[SPOKE]

I have a few of the Paramount 50th Anniversary bikes/frames and absolutely love the way they ride. The paint was really top notch during that time frame too!
The newest bike I have from Waterford is a 75th anniversary Paramount that is a fancy polished lugged stainless frame set with painted main triangle. Really nice ridding bike too with custom geometry. Only minor gripe is the paint isn’t extremely ”crisp” around the lugs.

[colker]

I have a few of the Paramount 50th Anniversary bikes/frames and absolutely love the way they ride. The paint was really top notch during that time frame too!
The newest bike I have from Waterford is a 75th anniversary Paramount that is a fancy polished lugged stainless frame set with painted main triangle. Really nice ridding bike too with custom geometry. Only minor gripe is the paint isn’t extremely ”crisp” around the lugs.

I would rebuild this thing w/ silver everything. Is it a 53 c-c?

[SPOKE]

I would rebuild this thing w/ silver everything. Is it a 53 c-c?

I know it would look great with silver bits but since I had the group sitting on the shelf I decided to use it.
It’s actually a 55cm top tube.

[bocobiking]

I bought a Gunnar last spring, and my wife rides a Waterford bought through Potato's shop. Fantastic bikes.

What I especially appreciated is that I can get a custom steel frame without waiting in a long queue, for a reasonable price, from a responsive company that doesn't depend on a one-man operation.

[Rudy]

Owned a dozen Waterfords including a made-to-measure SR 33. Spoke to Richard many times during this build as well as the other bikes, one of which a fabled W13. He, Richard, and his staff are top notch. You can spend more but the advantages of doing so diminish at redshift velocities. Buy a Waterford.

[oldpotatoe]

Owned a dozen Waterfords including a made-to-measure SR 33. Spoke to Richard many times during this build as well as the other bikes, one of which a fabled W13. He, Richard, and his staff are top notch. You can spend more but the advantages of doing so diminish at redshift velocities. Buy a Waterford.

Agree...."advantages of doing so diminish at redshift velocities'....gotta remember that one.:)

[Ken Robb]

Owned a dozen Waterfords including a made-to-measure SR 33. Spoke to Richard many times during this build as well as the other bikes, one of which a fabled W13. He, Richard, and his staff are top notch. You can spend more but the advantages of doing so diminish at redshift velocities. Buy a Waterford.

20 years ago I visited Waterford and got a one-one tour with Richard himself. It was all very impressive. I had a standard RS-11 (Road Sport made with their less expensive tube set than their 22 series tubes) that I like a lot. I asked Richard if I should have him measure me for a custom built with 22 tubes. His answer was he could save me a few ounces but it would ride very much like my RS-11 so he didn't think I should bother unless I really wanted to pay a bike like the one I loved in his current catalog. It was black with polished stainless lugs and one of the most beautiful bikes I have ever seen. He and his company are straight shooters and builders. :-)

[IFRider]

Waterford is the real deal, making some beautiful bikes. My 89' Waterford Paramount was my first real nice bike and as a point of reference, I had them spread the rear triangle and repaint candy apple red. They did remarkable job and in fact had the same builder do the work as built it originally. Easily one of the most gorgeous looking paint jobs and has held up extremely well.

I also have an RS-22 that is one that Dave Wages built during his time at Waterford. Absolutely lovely 853 bike, that rides great. I have considered another Waterford many times and spoken with Richard Schwinn (he is the dude that answers the phone often) and he was as approachable and patient in discussing options.

It seems their focus is not posting glam shots all over Instagram and elsewhere, but you can find examples if you look for some remarkable stuff (SS Lugs, sculpted lugs, fancy paint).

Here is my RS-22 in an older build up ...

Warren

[Kobe]

20 years ago I visited Waterford and got a one-one tour with Richard himself. It was all very impressive. I had a standard RS-11 (Road Sport made with their less expensive tube set than their 22 series tubes) that I like a lot. I asked Richard if I should have him measure me for a custom built with 22 tubes. His answer was he could save me a few ounces but it would ride very much like my RS-11 so he didn't think I should bother unless I really wanted to pay a bike like the one I loved in his current catalog. It was black with polished stainless lugs and one of the most beautiful bikes I have ever seen. He and his company are straight shooters and builders. :-)

I never saw this thread before and just read the whole thing. You said the exact same thin in post #7 last year. :) At least we know you're not embellishing the story.

I sent Gunnar an email about ordering direct and was shocked when Richard Schwinn call me to discuss options. Pretty cool.

I ended up with a 66cm Gunnar Sport and love it.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49069645522_799e337e6b_c.jpg

[AngryScientist]

I have admired a number of waterfords over the years, and i would love to own one someday.

i do own a gunnar and it's one of the best bikes i've ridden.

i think waterford makes one of the nicest riding steel forks out there.

[Ken Robb]

I never saw this thread before and just read the whole thing. You said the exact same thin in post #7 last year. :) At least we know you're not embellishing the story.

I sent Gunnar an email about ordering direct and was shocked when Richard Schwinn call me to discuss options. Pretty cool.

I ended up with a 66cm Gunnar Sport and love it.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49069645522_799e337e6b_c.jpg

To quote Judge Judy: If you tell the truth you don't have to have a good memory. :)

[nalax]

A while back I went by Waterford to drop off a Gunnar mtb frame which needed some seat tube work. I had brought another bike along to go ride at kettle Moraine which isn't far from Waterford. I didn't have an appointment and apologized for dropping off a frame unannounced. I was expecting to pick it up at a later date and had no rush.

Richard came up, told us stories about the Chicago days, gave us a tour of the company and sodas and had someone work on the frame right away. After he finished he went and got the frame for me. That was an interesting day.