Calling all physical therapists/biek fitters

[verbs4us]

Had the bike into my LBS for routine stuff and mechanic comments that the saddle is way aft and wear on the handlebar tape suggests I might get a fitting to improve comfort and efficiency. Been a while since a fitting, and various things have changed on the bike, so I see opportunity where others might see risk, and what the hell.

We go through the Serotta fit machine and saddle height went down a smidge and the saddle moved forward a bunch—like 2 cm. Stem turned around to elevate bars and we got narrower bars. I’m paranoid about changes, since I didn’t have any pain or discomfort, but was willing to see if pedal efficiency would improve.

It didn’t seem to. Engaging quads more and able to better use the drops. I feel like I have to retrain entire muscle groups (which I probably do) so I feel slow. Lateral ache reappeared around left knee, so I am thinking this might have been a bad idea to fix what was not broke. After today’s ride I moved the saddle aft a centimeter or so to see if pain goes away.

Thoughts?

[OtayBW]

Those sound like big changes. I would be cautious. They may or may not be warranted in the long run, but if they were, you'd probably want to ease into them. GL.

[old fat man]

I'd never trust a fitter that wanted to move any aspect of my fit by 1+cm all at once. While I understand the end goal, they should have moved you .5cm at a time to let you adjust to the new position gradually.

IMO, this is a sign of a bike fitter who doesn't fully get it. While they may have the right position for you to work towards, they're not getting you there correctly.

[duff_duffy]

+1
i'd never trust a fitter that wanted to move any aspect of my fit by 1+cm all at once. While i understand the end goal, they should have moved you .5cm at a time to let you adjust to the new position gradually.

Imo, this is a sign of a bike fitter who doesn't fully get it. While they may have the right position for you to work towards, they're not getting you there correctly.

[Peter P.]

... so I am thinking this might have been a bad idea to fix what was not broke.

THIS.

You had no complaints the needed addressing. Even if your position was wrong or unorthodox, I wouldn't change it unless YOU asked, or were experiencing pain. Since neither is the case, leave your position alone.

[ultraman6970]

Move saddle front 2 cm?? and then flip the stem and narrower handlebars... well i cant imagine a fit so wacky that you needed to sit forward 2 cm than before... the opposite IMO is more plausible than what they did to you IMO but who knows, is hard to know w/o seeing you riding.

U arent using the quads as u used to do it before, thats why the pedaling IMO is wacky, probably the word is... not rounded, u are doing squares.

Wasnt the same just keep the sadle back and get this dude down the saddle just 1 to 1.5 cm?. What surprise me is that he flipped the stem, that means you got more upright now? Sure the bike feels a lot shorter now. How is the handling now? sucks??? Can you ride no hands???

I have to be honest is hard to know w/o seeing the rider in the bike before, I dont know the type of fit he had originally neither how he sits in the bike.

Example... today I saw a guy in a custom (i think) seven, older dude than me... paniers touring ti. rig...frame had a super big front tube (as usually are in those custom bikes) and slope of like 3 degrees, dude had the brooks all the way to the front plus a flipped 12 or 13 cm stem...he was riding like if i was riding a tricycle. He looked happy and if you go 10 mph having no idea how to use the gears... well... hard to know if he figures it out if something is wrong in his fit, probably he wont complain ever.

Here in this area some shops have fit sessions and honestly I can do it better and f... free...there are some respectable fitters in the area too. But the trend in shops in general at least here when you buy road bike is to sit you like in an hybrid and get you outta the door asap.

OP if you have a picture of your bike before and after the fit that would help a lot. I find what they did weird but w/o looking the before and after I cant tell you know...

Pictures?

[parris]

Curious here. Is the fitter in the same shop as the mechanic? What are his/her qualifications and chops? How long and what types of fitting do they do? Kind of cyclist, ages, injury, etc.

I have an acquaintance that dropped 1200 on "fitting" and gear between him and his wife from a mid size shop in part of the state. The fitter looked at power numbers and had a bunch of good gear, tables, etc. The cyclist and his wife are in pain when they ride now but because the pro told them they needed to be setup that particular way thats gospel.

The biggest red flag that told me the fitter missed the mark was when the 6ft3in husband was put on 165 cranks and the 5ft2in wife was put on 172.5s.

[Ronsonic]

Lateral ache reappeared around left knee, so ...

IT Band? Probably. Muscle imbalance - yeah. At least not balanced in the current position. Your glutes are doing less work in the new position and your distance from seat to pedal is a little less. Muscles tighten up to fit what you do with them.

Some flexibility work and stretching is in order if you want to keep this position. And even if you do, I'd move that saddle back half-way to where it was and give yourself a chance to adapt. The "down a smidge" is no big deal. The forward almost an inch is huge.

BTW - I am just a rando on the internet, but, yeah.

[Gummee]

I'll be the lone 'try it before you dismiss it out of hand' dissenter.

While you may not have pain now it could be that that's the position you're just used to and you're not as efficient as you could be. BTDT

So... Ride the new position for a month or so to get used to it THEN decide whether you like it or not.

M

[verbs4us]

Move saddle front 2 cm?? and then flip the stem and narrower handlebars... well i cant imagine a fit so wacky that you needed to sit forward 2 cm than before... the opposite IMO is more plausible than what they did to you IMO but who knows, is hard to know w/o seeing you riding.

Wasnt the same just keep the sadle back and get this dude down the saddle just 1 to 1.5 cm?. What surprise me is that he flipped the stem, that means you got more upright now? Sure the bike feels a lot shorter now. How is the handling now? sucks??? Can you ride no hands???

OP if you have a picture of your bike before and after the fit that would help a lot. I find what they did weird but w/o looking the before and after I cant tell you know...

Pictures?

Sorry Ultraman--not before/after pix. Good idea, however, for future reference! I think the stem flip might have been a good idea since now on the drops I have less neck and low back discomfort. However, I do feel scrunched up, so I am moving the saddle back an inch or so to see if that helps. The narrow bars I think are correct. I did feel a bit like I was driving a semi before, and now my arms are more or less straight out, not like big flapping wings. Thanks for the insights!

[ultraman6970]

Well you can deny the guy at least with the girl figured it out a way to get more power out of her :D

The biggest red flag that told me the fitter missed the mark was when the 6ft3in husband was put on 165 cranks and the 5ft2in wife was put on 172.5s.

[ultraman6970]

W/o seeing u is so hard to figure it out... from what I can see from your last comment just wonder if you are in a frame tad in the big size for you and thats why the dude move you to where it suppouse to be. If you have been like that for a while you will feel way too short. Other guys ride too high since the begining and after years somebody correct them and they feel way too low...

[parris]

Ultra the "funny" thing with the fitting for the wife was because she was having BAD hand numbness along with wrist and neck pain.

[Ti Designs]

You had no complaints the needed addressing. Even if your position was wrong or unorthodox, I wouldn't change it unless YOU asked, or were experiencing pain. Since neither is the case, leave your position alone.

There are two reasons to not change someone's position, or not even give them any fitting advice:

1) They have made the assumption that familiar is correct, or it feels right.

2) They don't want someone else to tell them how to ride a bike.

That covers about 99.99% of the riding population. As a bike fitter I see that vast untapped market as job security. For now I'll focus on the other .001% of people who realize that while a third of their body weight on the handlebars may be common, it's not correct.

Fitting starts with a very simple rule: Generating force and displacement (pushing things around) within your range of motion is called exercise, creating force and displacement outside of your range of motion is called injury. If a rider's position is 2cm outside their range of motion it's horrible. If it's 1.5cm outside their range of motion it's still horrible because it's mostly the body's own reflexes that do the damage.

[dddd]

OP mentions feeling "scrunched up" after the fitting in which the saddle was moved forward.
How is the bar position while riding out of the saddle, up steep grades?
Does it feel too compact, reach-wise?

How much "drop" is there from the top of saddle to top of bars?

Might the saddle have perhaps better been raised instead of sliding it rearward?
I often encounter riders who have moved their saddle rearward because they are tending to slide over the back edge while pedaling hard. But, raising the saddle would have accomplished the same "accommodation of the added leg extension" typically needed to comfortably achieve harder in-saddle pedaling.

Rearward saddle positioning often defeats the bike frame designer's intentions relative to weight distribution and resultant handling, though in this case the stem might be too short, or the frame may be on the small side(?).

Lastly, moving the saddle forward necessitates raising it slightly to achieve same leg extension.
Moving the saddle forward rotates the rider's entire body forward about the bb, which by itself necessitates a longer stem extension and lower handlebar height (if the bend at the waist is to be kept the same as before said changes).

And lastest lastly, the fore-aft positioning of the rider over the bb will be a function of the rider's pedaling intensity, which is affected by such things as ride duration, ride intensity and rider fitness level. This is the subtle difference between typical "road" positioning and "endurance" positioning, all relative of course!
Saddle tilt may need subtle adjustment to accommodate changes in fore-aft positioning and resultant tilt of the pelvis.

[ultraman6970]

LOL u made my day with this :D

So the couple went into the shop, and then they asked for a fit and this is what happened afterwards?

http://clipart.coolclips.com/480/vectors/tf05307/CoolClips_vc061447.png


Ultra the "funny" thing with the fitting for the wife was because she was having BAD hand numbness along with wrist and neck pain.

[parris]

The couple went into the shop for the fittings and they were very..."compliant" in what they were told they needed for more power production and comfort. Funny thing is they're still chasing the grail...

DAMN I know I should've bought a laser level and lab coat! 😉

[Ti Designs]

I have an acquaintance that dropped 1200 on "fitting" and gear between him and his wife from a mid size shop in part of the state. The fitter looked at power numbers and had a bunch of good gear, tables, etc. The cyclist and his wife are in pain when they ride now but because the pro told them they needed to be setup that particular way thats gospel.

I need to get myself some good gear, tell people I was a pro and charge **much** more...

For $600/person my clients get a fitting, a 16 week winter pedal stroke program, fitting adjustments as they adapt to changes in technique, skills work on the road (or grass) in the spring and climbing coaching in group rides. I know how they're riding because I see them on the road, they don't question my qualifications because they see me on the road and they see their own progress.

Fitters/coaches who attract clients by lying about their achievements or listing pointless certification are what's so wrong about the state of bike fitting these days. Oddly, our industry demands it. Customers seek out "the man" or "the name", and the shops try to provide just that.

[ultraman6970]

Ti program looks nice... unless fit is really wrong the issue is more a technique problem. Well thats how it goes sometimes.

[ultraman6970]

Well at least in my record the few people Ive helped after a few minutes are kicking my butt :D Like if it was that hard to ride faster than me :D

With the exception of one friend who did not want to listen because of a problem in a muscle... he got a fit in which he is sat like in a TT bike, plus he swapped the bike for a pinarello something which is a super nice bike tho. Looks like the only way to help him with the pain in the leg was to move him all the way to the front, which doesnt make any sense to me to be honest. But from what his wife told me he had like a ball in the abductors area and the only way to recess the pain was to sit like a in a TT bike.



The couple went into the shop for the fittings and they were very..."compliant" in what they were told they needed for more power production and comfort. Funny thing is they're still chasing the grail...

DAMN I know I should've bought a laser level and lab coat! 😉

[oldpotatoe]

Had the bike into my LBS for routine stuff and mechanic comments that the saddle is way aft and wear on the handlebar tape suggests I might get a fitting to improve comfort and efficiency. Been a while since a fitting, and various things have changed on the bike, so I see opportunity where others might see risk, and what the hell.

We go through the Serotta fit machine and saddle height went down a smidge and the saddle moved forward a bunch—like 2 cm. Stem turned around to elevate bars and we got narrower bars. I’m paranoid about changes, since I didn’t have any pain or discomfort, but was willing to see if pedal efficiency would improve.

It didn’t seem to. Engaging quads more and able to better use the drops. I feel like I have to retrain entire muscle groups (which I probably do) so I feel slow. Lateral ache reappeared around left knee, so I am thinking this might have been a bad idea to fix what was not broke. After today’s ride I moved the saddle aft a centimeter or so to see if pain goes away.

Thoughts?

You answered your own question. 'Feel' and no injury is a YUGE part of bike fit. AND bike fit is a art, not science..not etched n stone angles, CMs..

[verbs4us]

Spot on , DDDD. I saw the fitter leveling the saddle carefully with a bubble level--and found it was too nose-down for my biokinetics--too much hand pressure and I found I was sliding forward in the saddle. I raised the nose about 1/16th inch and slid it back about 1 cm and it's like--I'm back home on the ranch again. No knee/IT band pain and a more powerful feel in the legs. Yes, out of the saddle feels a bit oddly too upright and a little scrunched. I may flip the stem back the other way after giving it a chance for a spell. "More research is needed."

[booglebug]

You answered your own question. 'Feel' and no injury is a YUGE part of bike fit. AND bike fit is a art, not science..not etched n stone angles, CMs..

This, could not have said it better

[ultraman6970]

I dont want to be banned for a month so rather dont say anything :D

Spot on , DDDD. I saw the fitter leveling the saddle carefully with a bubble level--and found it was too nose-down for my biokinetics--too much hand pressure and I found I was sliding forward in the saddle. I raised the nose about 1/16th inch and slid it back about 1 cm and it's like--I'm back home on the ranch again. No knee/IT band pain and a more powerful feel in the legs. Yes, out of the saddle feels a bit oddly too upright and a little scrunched. I may flip the stem back the other way after giving it a chance for a spell. "More research is needed."

[pbarry]

Never move the saddle for or aft for a reach problem. Thats what different stem lengths are for. :)

[oldpotatoe]

Never move the saddle for or aft for a reach problem. Thats what different stem lengths are for. :)

Great point as when you move the saddle fore-aft, you also change where your knees are in relation to BB...