Masi-Confente-Medici Story--Drama

[LouDeeter]

If you like bike drama, this is about as good as it gets. Get a bag of popcorn and 30 minutes of your time and have fun reading about the Masi story, along with a few side stories that will make it worth your time.

http://www.raydobbins.com/ebay/medici/medici_story.htm

[fiamme red]

There was so much valuable information in the bikelist.org CR archives. I wonder if there's any way that someone can retrieve them? Or are they gone forever? If so, it's really a shame.

[smontanaro]

I recently got most of the old CR archives back up, with no concern for modern HTML sensibilities:

http://www.smontanaro.net/

It should be Google searchable, e.g.:

site:www.smontanaro.net Confente

[witcombusa]

I recently got most of the old CR archives back up, with no concern for modern HTML sensibilities:

http://www.smontanaro.net/

It should be Google searchable, e.g.:

site:www.smontanaro.net Confente



Great job!
Thank you :banana:

[clyde the point]

I am fortunate to have met several members of that story, and once owned a Confente track with a road fork; purchased by me when living in Monterey, and built at Farrier's place. I could not bring myself to ride it, and sold it when we moved to Ohio and I needed a tractor. One of 135. I didn't know that at the time. It was a beautiful bike no doubt. I did handle one of Boyer's stars painted bikes he had, as Mario made him several. There's an awful lot of ugly drama in that story, however it's relevant to history and does make for an interesting read.

[fiamme red]

I recently got most of the old CR archives back up, with no concern for modern HTML sensibilities:

http://www.smontanaro.net/

It should be Google searchable, e.g.:

site:www.smontanaro.net ConfenteThis is a great resource. Thanks so much for doing this! :)

[witcombusa]

I am fortunate to have met several members of that story, and once owned a Confente track with a road fork; purchased by me when living in Monterey, and built at Farrier's place. I could not bring myself to ride it, and sold it when we moved to Ohio and I needed a tractor. One of 135. I didn't know that at the time. It was a beautiful bike no doubt. I did handle one of Boyer's stars painted bikes he had, as Mario made him several. There's an awful lot of ugly drama in that story, however it's relevant to history and does make for an interesting read.

Don't understand the "I could not bring myself to ride it" mentality. It's just a bike. There are many bikes being made today far nicer than what Mario was building then. Mario fan boys are over the top... they are made to ride, Italian bikes were tools of the trade.

[chrismoustache]

Wow.

Kinda makes me feel better about having a Panasonic built Peleton...

[bigbill]

My sister has a beautiful Medici with eggshell base and splatter finish. She had it cold set to 130mm a few years ago and a 6700 group installed. She travels and is considering sending it off for coupling.

[LouDeeter]

Don't understand the "I could not bring myself to ride it" mentality. It's just a bike. There are many bikes being made today far nicer than what Mario was building then. Mario fan boys are over the top... they are made to ride, Italian bikes were tools of the trade.

Any collectible, whether it is a bike or coins, violins, cars, stamps, or other, was meant to be used, but in the end, some specific examples end up being special. I wouldn't expect you to spend an 1804 U.S. Silver Dollar as if it were just money or put a rare stamp on an envelope to be mailed, nor would I expect someone to think a Confente was just another bike to be used as a tool to ride.

[witcombusa]

Any collectible, whether it is a bike or coins, violins, cars, stamps, or other, was meant to be used, but in the end, some specific examples end up being special. I wouldn't expect you to spend an 1804 U.S. Silver Dollar as if it were just money or put a rare stamp on an envelope to be mailed, nor would I expect someone to think a Confente was just another bike to be used as a tool to ride.

If you are judging them special because of the relatively small number made before his death that's fine. But so what, the best compliment you could do him would be to love the way it rides. I've seen a bunch of them and as I've said many builders are building as good and some are a full step above his work. Folks who own them can do whatever they want with them but maybe they are simply missing out on a nice bike to ride. They most certainly are not even close to the rare cars out on the track @ vintage festivals being used as intended.

[smontanaro]

I'm with @LouDeeter here. There are bazillions of bikes out there, but, what, 135 Confentes? Most anybody who owns one will almost certainly have other bikes which ride as well (or better - only a few were built as customs for their current owners, so fit might be a compromise). Why not hold it out as an example of Mario Confente's craftsmanship (and often Brian Baylis's, Joe Bell's or others who may well have refinished many of them by this point)?

Maybe you ride it once in a blue moon, and only on the most pleasant of days. Most of the time it hangs on your wall or in your man cave. Your daily rider is that beat up Schwinn Super Sport or that ho-hum Serotta Otrott. ;)

[LouDeeter]

Any collectible, whether it is a bike or coins, violins, cars, stamps, or other, was meant to be used, but in the end, some specific examples end up being special. I wouldn't expect you to spend an 1804 U.S. Silver Dollar as if it were just money or put a rare stamp on an envelope to be mailed, nor would I expect someone to think a Confente was just another bike to be used as a tool to ride.

I think most collectors like the idea of using the item if it has a use. Take a Stradivarius violin. Many of the greatest violinists of our day still play them. Likewise, people who own Confente bikes do take them out for a spin, just not their regular ride. I have owned one. I probably rode it three times. I also have owned a number of other small volume bikes, some of which I would call collectible and some not so much. It isn't just the rarity that makes a bike special and collectible. It might be the workmanship, the cult following, the demand. But, in the bike world, collectible bikes aren't "just a bike".

[cnighbor1]

http://www.raydobbins.com/

[weisan]

Mario Confente

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/USA/Confente/mario_7.jpg

[Waldo]

Read this years ago. Just re-read it and it is still a fascinating read. The Brian Baylis-Jim Cunningham cat fight is worth the reading all by itself.

[witcombusa]

I think most collectors like the idea of using the item if it has a use. Take a Stradivarius violin. Many of the greatest violinists of our day still play them. Likewise, people who own Confente bikes do take them out for a spin, just not their regular ride. I have owned one. I probably rode it three times. I also have owned a number of other small volume bikes, some of which I would call collectible and some not so much. It isn't just the rarity that makes a bike special and collectible. It might be the workmanship, the cult following, the demand. But, in the bike world, collectible bikes aren't "just a bike".

Well clearly opinions vary.
I don't hold any builder to a god like status, it's just unrealistic. Lots of great folks out there building wonderful bikes to ride. Maybe if you tell them in advance you won't ride it they'll give you a discount...

[weisan]

[/B]

Maybe if you tell them in advance you won't ride it they'll give you a discount...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4549/38192550496_99de8c09c2_b.jpg

Ernesto Colnago presented this bicycle to Pope John Paul II in 1979. After the Pope's death, the bike was auctioned off to a collector from whom Colnago later repurchased it

[witcombusa]

Must have been tough to ride it in that outfit! :bike:

[Polyglot]

Ernesto Colnago presented this bicycle to Pope John Paul II in 1979. After the Pope's death, the bike was auctioned off to a collector from whom Colnago later repurchased it

Actually, after a predetermined period of non-use, the bike was given to Caritas, one of the charities of the Catholic church. A bit like Saint Vincent de Paul. Caritas then put the bike up for sale, just like you would at Goodwill. There was no indication that it was the pope's bike. They buyer contacted to Colnago to find out more about the bike. Ernesto then offered a bike of his choice.

[weisan]

Actually, after a predetermined period of non-use, the bike was given to Caritas, one of the charities of the Catholic church. A bit like Saint Vincent de Paul. Caritas then put the bike up for sale, just like you would at Goodwill. There was no indication that it was the pope's bike. They buyer contacted to Colnago to find out more about the bike. Ernesto then offered a bike of his choice.

thank you poly pal for the extra details.

[CSKeller]

I think most collectors like the idea of using the item if it has a use. Take a Stradivarius violin. Many of the greatest violinists of our day still play them. Likewise, people who own Confente bikes do take them out for a spin, just not their regular ride. I have owned one. I probably rode it three times. I also have owned a number of other small volume bikes, some of which I would call collectible and some not so much. It isn't just the rarity that makes a bike special and collectible. It might be the workmanship, the cult following, the demand. But, in the bike world, collectible bikes aren't "just a bike".

Thanks for the super informative link. Confente was definitely a master builder.
But please tell me that if you own/owned one that you didn't have it painted/refinished in that hideous 'Razorback' paint scheme. I hope you had it properly restored by a master painter with the correct decals.

[bitt3n]

this thread is making me wonder if I shouldn't have cut the hanger off a Confente to make my sweet fixie

[LouDeeter]

Not my best picture, but the only one I can find right now. No Razorback decals on this one.....

[paredown]

Never got a chance to ride (or even a sighting in the flesh) of a Confente, but everyone that I knew lusted after a Masi BITD--even before the whole California adventure.

I own a piece from the tail end of the extended genealogy--years later Gian Simonetti and Mike Howard were still in business--They had first operated as Medici, and then as Simonetti. I have a filet brazed Simo from the mid/late '90s (Mike's guess from serial # and pics.)

It rides (and feels) like a good Italian bike--not far from what I remember of the Masi-s that I tried out BITD. This a classic story of the diffusion of technology/technique/design.

Thus, the part of the story that I find interesting is the after-story--the group that passed through Masi was key in the evolution and diffusion of American custom frame building and finishing-Cunningham became CycleArt, Baylis & Howard together were Wizard, Howard and Simonetti (Medici and Simonetti as mentioned), Dave Moulton built for Masi for a time, Eisentraut and Lippy as well, Rob Robertson, even Mr. 'Need for Speed' (David Tesch). Also Ted Kirkbride and Joe Starck.

And of course Masi/Confente/Kirkbride were responsible for microinfusion lugs which was the future, as was Imron paint for a time.

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2010/12/part-of-confente-and-masi-history.html

[DCilliams]

I thought Baylis's perspective on master, myth, and craftsmanship was the most interesting part of the thread:

"There will never be an end to the debate over Mario and what he built.

The limited number is probably the most significant factor in the

unrealistic prices relative to the “actual” quality of the frames. Those

who seek the highest prices for these items are within their rights to

extract as much money as possible out of the few Confente frames that

exist. The only people truly qualified to judge the quality of any

other frames are frame builders. We see and know what is involved in

making the end result; and know and understand what it takes to do it.

The rest of you must go on what you see (mainly the painted finished

frame and nothing else), your emotions based on what you think you know

about the builder and frame building, what you imagine it takes, and what

others might have to say about it. The fact is, most people have to go

on emotion/visual input with very little knowledge of what is really

being presented.

Every time I make that statement there is someone who says “who the hell

do you think you are and what the f*** do you know”. Spare me.

Frame building is not magic, takes moderate skill(about like brain

surgery), and I’ve paid my dues for nearly 30 years. Now if there’s

another frame builder who would like to take exception to what I say then

I’m all ears. I’m not pulling rank on non-builders; but the fact is I

know more about it than you do. Put me in your job and I’m the one who

knows nothing. Since the topic is frames I feel I can speak with

authority. I do my best to present what I know and back it up with facts

and explanations as required. If I come off as an “elitist snob” I’m

sorry, it’s not my intention. Let’s move on.

I just had a thought that might shed a little light on the subject of

value. With any given frame there are two factors. The first is the

actual quality of construction, choice of materials, design, style,

finish, etc. In other words tangible elements that any experienced and

knowledgeable frame builder can point out and explain and give relative

credit to compared to other frames of “similar intention”. A certain

amount of “style” is personal opinion but there are also traditional

accepted elements of design that can be considered “more refined” than

something less so. You can’t compare apples and oranges. A Confente is a

custom handmade frame. You can’t compare a Schwinn Paramount to it to

make a fair comparison. Other custom handmade frames should be the

benchmark.

The second factor is “mystique”, “mojo”, emotion, hype, and all other

“marketing” oriented factors that each frame has or has not. I guarantee

there are hundreds of frames built to Marios’ ability and above that

rate zero on the “I have to have one” factor. It’s just the way the

world is. If all frames were purchased strictly on the quality of what’s

there and nothing else and the price was relative to that, Mario would

not make the top ten with absolute certainty.

So where does this leave us? Well, right where we are. What is involved

is a bike whose “mojo” far outweighs its actual relative worth as a

bike frame. That’s what collecting is all about. 100 people want one and

only two are available it’s obvious what will happen. If Mario were

still building frames this would not be happening now. As a matter of

fact I suspect Mario would be following the “trends” and the market and

going with the industry and all of its gyrations because as is obvious,

he was headed in the direction of streamlining frame construction and

amongst the first to abandon the handmade approach in favor of increased

production. One can’t say that isn’t talent; it most certainly is.

Ernesto Colnago is the KING of such “trends for the purpose of increased

profits, marketed as improvements” in the bicycle industry. For those of

you who think that full chrome forks and straight fork blades are

“improvements” you missed the boat (because you’re not a frame builder);

they are strictly concepts that allowed Colnago to minimize the number

of forks of proper length and color to mate to frames, and a way to

simplify the building and aligning of forks. I’m reasonably certain the

letter from Colnago to Mario that I recently examined was an attempt

from Colnago to “buy off” one of his possible future competitors (Mario)

knowing that Mario was one of the best in Italy as a frame builder and

also was up on the trends that the industry in Italy was about to embark

upon. Mario didn’t spearhead investment cast lugs; he just knew what was

on the horizon in Italy before we did here in the states. There’s more

to this but not time right now to address all of it.

Back to the point. If we were to assign an actual value of any given

frame based on its actual merits and recorded them on a list. And then

went back and assigned “mojo factor” to the same frames, we would

probably see something like this. Some real crappy frames in terms of

construction (the ride and so on we can leave out for the moment since a

lot of “crappy” built frames ride fine, many of them much better than

a Confente for example) with low points for quality of construction and

finish would rate rather high in Mojo. Why? Well the best example I can

think of is the Bob Jackson. The article in Playboy many years ago

featured a Jackson as I recall and suddenly these frames were highly

respected and sought after. Still some of this remains. The bike looked

nice in the photos and gushing text was no doubt included; but the fact

is as a frame builder of about 30 years now I can say that few bikes

rated that high in Mojo are as poorly built. No doubt the people who

have Jackson’s they love will take exception. I’m separating the emotion

from the facts. Fact is they are crude in so many ways but they work

fine, so there.

The Confente is the other obvious imbalance. The upside is that Confente

frames are nicely made (although brass brazed) and stylish but the fact

is that there are a large number of frames whose quality are equal or

superior in construction and finish. Mario used what I call “obsolete”

frame geometry in some respects and hasn’t changed the world by coming

up with “magic frame geometry”. So what’s new? Nothing. It’s a nice

handmade bike that exists in numbers so small that this imbalance has

occurred.

So what Richard Rose said is pretty much it. A lot more bike can be had

for a lot less money if you can do without claiming “I own one of only

135 frames built”. How much is it worth to you? Like Chuck said, it’s

the buyer who makes that determination. I think the Japanese are more on

track. Even though there are thousands of Rene Herse frames, they have

recognized the totality of the design and construction of these bikes

and have assigned value to them based on that. The only mojo that comes

with a Rene Herse is that some of them fetch high prices on account of

the completeness of the bike as a concept.

One and a half hours later.........

I was interrupted during writing this by a customer who came over to pick

up an early Italian Masi GC I just painted. We got to talking about two

things; the concept of “constructor” and the various quality of many of

these “name” collectable frames. Because at this time there are 3 Rene

Herses, an early Colnago(1970), a few Baylises, a Flying Scot, 4

Hetchins, 5 Cinellis, and 10 Masis (ranging from 1962 to 1978, plus

several others to compare we took to looking at construction details of

all of these frames in a side to side comparison. What we saw was that

all of these bikes are various degrees of OK but none are worth writing

home about. Pretty much as you would expect. Looking at those bikes

compared to my work and that of many of my contemporaries makes it obvious

that what we’re doing is in fact quite in a different category. No real

surprise there really. So what Dale just said is exactly true. The

craftsmanship of modern American builders is above that of “the early

Masters” so to speak. Where Mario fits in is another question. To be

perfectly honest, Marios’ work is considerably more refined than that of

his predecessors; but isn’t at the same level as our current American

builders. If one was going to plot a course as to where Mario would be

now I have to say that he would probably be right in the middle of the

“modern trends” in the industry as opposed to holding out and preserving

the “craft” that we as classicists know and love. Mario was always

looking ahead and wanted to be on the forefront of the developments in

the industry. His enthusiasm for investment cast lugs (which I won’t

touch anymore) leads me to believe he wasn’t so much in love with the

craft as making more bikes for “famous” people. I’ve gotten from several

persons that who owned the bikes was more important than the bike

itself. I saw a letter sent back from President Carter from the White

House thanking him for the generous offer and the “spirit in which it

was offered” but declining to accept Confete bicycles as gifts. This is

typical Italian behavior but it doesn’t wash over here. You can give the

Pope a Campy 50th Anniversity. group or a Conlago bicycle and have your

picture taken and make a poster out of it; but not in the United States.

That is one of the typical advertising fallacies; the President has one,

Clint Eastwood has one (did he order it or was it given to him, anyone

know for sure?), a big giant basketball player has one, etc.

Like Dale said it would be interesting for a group of knowledgeable (read

frame builders) people to get together with massive quantities of exotic

frames and sort of rate the frames based only on the quality of the work

and design of the bike. I got a good start this afternoon as I pointed

out lots of details of construction to someone who knows bikes as young

a racer, to bike mechanic, to collector/rider over most of his life. He

had no idea there were so many minute details that one could inspected

for quality and execution. My talk last year at Velo Rendezvous was

centered around this topic. My presentation this year will probably

revolve around the concept of “Replica VS. Counterfeit” and will include

lots of these details. Perhaps one thing we as a group might undertake

at this years Velo Rendezvous would be one of these open air side by

side comparisons of a number of “big name” frames. I promise to open

lots of eyes if it takes place.

So the bottom line as to why Confente frames sometimes get more money

than they’re “actually” worth is because there are so few. I’ve also

noticed that the most vocal persons regarding their value are those who

own them or have something to gain from selling them. Not a one is a

frame builder. All of them focus on everything except the actual

explanation of what the frame really is. You’re buying 60% mojo and 40%

bike. Again that’s the way it is in the world. It will not change.

To separate the “man” from the “frame” is an interesting way of looking

at it. I knew Mario just like the rest of those who claim to. I have

talked with several others who spent time with Mario at various times

and the same impression come from all of them. We all thought highly of

Mario. He was talented just like every other human being. He made

several poor choices as to with whom and how to go about making world

class frames. Mario is not without responsibility during all of the

twists and turns of his life. His personal goals drove him in some

directions that ended up being counterproductive. To blame everyone else

he was involved with for his troubles and his shortened life is short

sighted and clearly not true. Playing on this sympathy to sell his

frames is an injustice to all involved, including Mario. Mario died

young because he had a bad heart. He knew it; he told us that while we

were working at Masi. He told the same thing to a close friend of his

many years ago, that the doctors told him he could no longer race on

account of it. This is a fact. Mario was human just like the rest of us.

Between the awesome ability to focus there were temper tantrums and fits

of frustration and depression. Yes, caused by his circumstances; which

he himself entered into. Possibly blinded by his own desperate need to

build the best frames in the world and sell them to the stars. But

either way, it ends up as “Mojo” to those who are predisposed to seeing

that instead of his frames. Go figure."

[zennmotion]

I think most collectors like the idea of using the item if it has a use. Take a Stradivarius violin. Many of the greatest violinists of our day still play them.

sorry for the thread drift but strads and other old string instruments must be played regularly in order to maintain their tone and up to a point they improve with age. Few of even the greatest violinists can afford a strad, but wealthy collectors frequently own them and lend them out for this reason. Excellent investments (violins) by the way if you know what you're looking at. Back to bikes, I agree that there are a good number of modern builders whose work I'd rather own, but I get the sentimental vintage thing.

[saab2000]

I think these bikes should be ridden. The day will come when all of us who remember today's great builders will be dust in the wind.

We should enjoy them for what they are and pass them on. But if we fetishize them they end up dust covered in basements and discarded in moves and house sales.

The story is interesting and a bit tragic I suppose but at the end of the day, they're just "stuff" like so much else.

Niche article within a niche sport already at the fringes of normalcy.

[AngryScientist]

this kind of thing just shows that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

i dont know the full history, but those old bikes do absolutely nothing for me. confente? heh? looks like any other yard sale "10-speed" to me.

i dont fault anyone, or question their sanity who sees wild value in some of these things, but for me - no thanks.

to me, bikes are meant to be ridden, ride well and perform well first - if they look nice, all the better, but art is definitely not their primary function in my book.

man, that baylis quote above, to me comes across as awfully whiny and judgmental - why does he care about the value proposition of other frames so much?

[saab2000]

The comparison of frame building and brain surgery leaves me scratching my head. Wow. :eek: That definitely is a step far in an artisanal craft sometimes overflowing with outsized egos.

Thankfully we have builders here who communicate well and are slightly more humble.

[El Chaba]

I try very hard not to pass judgement on the objects of desire of anybody else....This especially holds true for those people within the same lunatic fringe as me. I don't mind describing how I may see things a bit differently from time to time....I like some vintage bikes, and I like some modern bikes. My interest in any of them is predicated on my opinion that they do their job well....extra points are awarded if they do their job exceptionally well. The whole Confente fetishism jumps the shark for me as it is based on the *story* and *drama*. They may or may not ride great, but that is not the chief driver of their value. On the other hand something like an nice old DeRosa or Gios or Prestige shop Peugeot has great interest for me as these machines are valued for how they perform. It's a great pleasure to ride one of those old machines and confirm the reputation....and to demonstrate that what was good in the 70's or 80's is still pretty good today. So I'm fine with the idea of elevating an exceptionally built bike to the level of art, but in the end it needs to be performance art as well. So, here in the lunatic fringe we all have our kinks....and they wouldn't qualify as fetishes if they weren't different from the mainstream

[CSKeller]

Not my best picture, but the only one I can find right now. No Razorback decals on this one.....

Absolutely Beautiful Lou!!! Do you still have it? Hope you or the next owner is enjoying it!!:beer::beer:

[unterhausen]

He made really nice frames, and I'm sorry his life ended up taking such a sorry turn and ended so early. I was always annoyed by the marketing while he was alive, and am somewhat floored by the valuations. I have a list of builders I would buy from before one of his frames. Probably more than one for the same money.

[LouDeeter]

Here are two pictures of the Confente that I owned. It has since changed hands a couple of times and last report I got it was in Asia.

[weisan]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-14/vintage-race-bike-collection-believed-to-be-australias-largest/9991274

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9991326-3x2-700x467.jpgSteve Nutt's new bike shed is bigger than most suburban house blocks and houses his collection of more than 200 vintage bicycles.

The 69-year-old Gold Coast resident believes he has accumulated the largest collection of its kind in Australia.

"I don't know anyone who has more bicycles than me," he said.

The former bike shop owner said he buys and rebuilds bikes built between 1890 and 1990.

"I mainly collect racing bikes and generally, ones with an Australian connection, either made in Australia or raced by Australians," he added.

Pedal-power passion began as a teenager
His passion for pushbikes started as a 14-year-old while attending Bondi High School, in Sydney's eastern suburbs.

He and his mates began racing and his love of the sport quickly grew into a lifelong love of steel-framed bikes.

"Mum was a single mother and she couldn't afford to give me money to buy a good racing bike, so I had to get a paper run and buy my own," he said.

"I never had a bike as good as all my mates, so that probably stayed with me and as I've become an adult, and near retirement, I decided I'd like to have the bikes that I couldn't have when I was 14."

Steve Nutt spends up to 10 hours a week tinkering on his bikes in his shed and never takes them inside the house.

He has not bothered trying to value the collection consisting of bikes ranging in value from $500 to $10,000.

"It's in the eye of the beholder," he said.

"Everyone likes something a bit different and mainly, I like racing bikes with an Australian connection."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9991420-3x2-700x467.jpg

[choke]

I've seen this one the last two years at Eroica CA...

http://eroica17.ciocctoo.com/er17-3.jpg

[Waldo]

The comparison of frame building and brain surgery leaves me scratching my head. Wow. :eek: That definitely is a step far in an artisanal craft sometimes overflowing with outsized egos.

Thankfully we have builders here who communicate well and are slightly more humble.

Different skills and training and the stakes in brain surgery are obviously higher, but Brian's work was impeccable, his bikes ride fantastic, and he spent countless hours perfecting each frame, many more than he needed to.

[cmg]

great sad story, lots of drama over something as simple as a bike. when i first started buying bikes. the bikes i lusted for but couldn't afford were the first purchases. the era of steel had all ready faded when the purchases started. favorite memory when i got one of the first high priced bike was from a friends girlfriend when i rode it over there. "You paid how much and it doesn't come with a kick stand?' the Confente saga sounds like a niche film waiting to be made.

[Pegoready]

The comparison of frame building and brain surgery leaves me scratching my head.

You obviously haven't listened to the podcast Dr. Death. I would bet there are plenty of brain surgeons out there that don't have the fine touch and motor skills of a good framebuilder or painter.

[54ny77]

it might rake in tens of dollars!

;)

the Confente saga sounds like a niche film waiting to be made.

[bfd]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-14/vintage-race-bike-collection-believed-to-be-australias-largest/9991274

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9991326-3x2-700x467.jpg

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9991420-3x2-700x467.jpg

Not bad! But I think the ultimate collector has got to be that guy in Taiwan with something like 750 frames and complete bikes!

https://www.sterba-bike.cz/media/foto/26/imgeec88aabfef5d123eae7c63a2315189b.jpg

https://www.sterba-bike.cz/media/foto/26/img33d81063fe2eab2ad30d4ed8a8741778.jpg

After all, who else has like 3 Cinelli Lasers?!

https://www.sterba-bike.cz/media/foto/26/img45981cf5a49bb0f4985029232853b8f8.jpg

Or 3 gold Colnago frameset

https://www.sterba-bike.cz/media/foto/26/img363bd240d8905e5befdbbaf5685da451.jpg

So awesome or nuts!

For the article and more pics, go here:

https://www.sterba-bike.cz/item/asahi-chang-s-collection-taipei-taiwan/category/others/group/velo-museums?lang=EN

Good Luck!

[weisan]

bfd pal, I agree completely! I was searching for him but found this one instead.

[bitt3n]

Not bad! But I think the ultimate collector has got to be that guy in Taiwan with something like 750 frames and complete bikes!

If that guy ever gets divorced the bottom is going to fall out of the vintage bike market

[smontanaro]

Especially if she gets the bikes and sells them for what he told her he paid. ;)

[NHAero]

Despite the tone, I think there is a lot of truth in the Brian Baylis piece quoted above. It's poignant to me as he cites Bob Jackson as one of the over-rated framebuilders. I think that's true in most cases - BJ turned out many frames of varying quality from a well-staffed shop. When I was looking to have a custom made frame in late 1971, Sheldon Brown steered me to BJ, but he pointed me towards BJ's best model (called the Olympus, BITD). I wanted an all-rounder that would have clearance for larger tires and would accept racks and fenders so the Masi/Cinelli and similar were out. That frame has diamond reinforcements at the brake bridges, and long spearpoints on the BB shell and inside of the fork crown. When we tested a bunch of frames for stiffness at MIT in 1974 to help specify tubing diameter and thickness for the aluminum bike frame project, my BJ was one of the lightest frames and yet on the stiffer end of the frames we tested.

Sheldon wrote "A friend of mine has a Jackson that he has owned for years. It truly is one of the most attractive bicycles I've ever seen. It features great stove enamel, fun contrasting red panels, and rides great." And yet we've all seen some very ordinary examples for frames that have come from that company.

I contrast this with my 1988 Nagasawa fixed gear road trainer. I sent that back in 2014 to Circle A for a full strip and re-paint, and they sent some photos of the frame stripped, and told me it was a beautifully made frame. And when Dave Anderson made my frame in 2012, he sent links to a photo album with his progress week by week on the frame, and you can see the incredible craftsmanship he applies to his work. Being a stainless frame, with little paint when it was delivered, his brazing work is fully visible, and impeccable. I have little doubt that our contemporary framebuilders of his rank surpass the quality of the vintage high end frames. And when one adds in the significant advances in steel metallurgy, there really is no comparison.

All that being said, all three of the bikes mentioned above are in regular riding rotation, and very much enjoyed for what they are and how they ride, and how they look. The Nagasawa and the Anderson have more of what Baylis calls 'mojo' to me, but I think it is because each was made by one highly dedicated and skilled person - Anderson even does his own paint - so they feel even more as pieces of art as well as craft.

[paredown]

Despite the tone, I think there is a lot of truth in the Brian Baylis piece quoted above. It's poignant to me as he cites Bob Jackson as one of the over-rated framebuilders. I think that's true in most cases - BJ turned out many frames of varying quality from a well-staffed shop. When I was looking to have a custom made frame in late 1971, Sheldon Brown steered me to BJ, but he pointed me towards BJ's best model (called the Olympus, BITD). I wanted an all-rounder that would have clearance for larger tires and would accept racks and fenders so the Masi/Cinelli and similar were out. That frame has diamond reinforcements at the brake bridges, and long spearpoints on the BB shell and inside of the fork crown. When we tested a bunch of frames for stiffness at MIT in 1974 to help specify tubing diameter and thickness for the aluminum bike frame project, my BJ was one of the lightest frames and yet on the stiffer end of the frames we tested.

Sheldon wrote "A friend of mine has a Jackson that he has owned for years. It truly is one of the most attractive bicycles I've ever seen. It features great stove enamel, fun contrasting red panels, and rides great." And yet we've all seen some very ordinary examples for frames that have come from that company.

I contrast this with my 1988 Nagasawa fixed gear road trainer. I sent that back in 2014 to Circle A for a full strip and re-paint, and they sent some photos of the frame stripped, and told me it was a beautifully made frame. And when Dave Anderson made my frame in 2012, he sent links to a photo album with his progress week by week on the frame, and you can see the incredible craftsmanship he applies to his work. Being a stainless frame, with little paint when it was delivered, his brazing work is fully visible, and impeccable. I have little doubt that our contemporary framebuilders of his rank surpass the quality of the vintage high end frames. And when one adds in the significant advances in steel metallurgy, there really is no comparison.

All that being said, all three of the bikes mentioned above are in regular riding rotation, and very much enjoyed for what they are and how they ride, and how they look. The Nagasawa and the Anderson have more of what Baylis calls 'mojo' to me, but I think it is because each was made by one highly dedicated and skilled person - Anderson even does his own paint - so they feel even more as pieces of art as well as craft.
Absolutely agree--and E-Ritchie has made similar comments about how his generation of builders thought they were copying "the masters" of frame building, but in fact ended up going somewhere quite different, with levels of care and finish rarely found on the English and Euro mass produced bikes... Baylis was certainly in that category. And there are some modern masters, like our own Dave Kirk (and others). Oddly then there has been some backwards induction, with craft produced bikes from European builders.

The case in point is taking a close look at an older Cinelli and spotting the file marks etc, or looking at some of the English bikes and seeing incomplete fill on the shoreline of lugs etc--yet the particular bikes may ride wonderfully (as did my first borrowed race bike, a Cinelli 'B').

[DCilliams]

Completely agree. I’d never read Baylis before. I posted the quote because 1) I think he was pretty good writer and 2) his perspective was a sort of behind the curtain moment for me, especially as one who fell into this world only about a decade ago.

[jtbadge]

Here I was, thinking all of the Medici drama was about the Hair Bandit.

[paredown]

Here I was, thinking all of the Medici drama was about the Hair Bandit.
Yes--Mike Howard. He's been on the CR list off and on, and I remember that fairly recently he and Baylis had a plan to make some more bikes under the Wizard name, but I don't know if that came to fruition or not before Brian died. IIRC, the CR folks may have taken up a collection to help him to buy back one of his early frames in the last while...I can't recall if it was a Wizard or a Medici.

My late filet brazed Simo is pretty nicely done, so even if he started out as part of the 'B' team (lower in the pecking order than Confente) he was paying attention and working his craft. The moment of truth would be looking at it with the paint off, which I have not done...

[GOTHBROOKS]

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7193/6799093010_1d0f232fb5_c.jpg
my old medici kicked ass. apparently howard brazed it. i dunno if its true but its the story i was told and the one i believed. maybe they only said that because i myself have long hair. i had it built with both 7800 and c-rec but sold it because at that point i did not need a 1" headtube in my life. i still dont. except my paramount. im never getting rid of that one.
i heard mike was posting on craigslist after he got released that he was available for frame repairs and things like that. i wonder if hes still doing that. or showing up to that pasadena vintage ride.
i have some replacement confente decals laying around somewhere too even though ill never own one of those. it tripped me out at the time because they use the same font/typeface/logo whatever you want to call it as medici and masi.

anyway, heres some medici catalogs i scanned way back when.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8145/7653067582_eab4a73c7d_c.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/botanicamysteria/albums/72157666829908836

[Doug Fattic]

I was good friends with Brian Baylis even though our lifestyles could not have been more different and we would usually sit together at frame building gatherings. Herbie Helm who I taught how to build frames (and helps me teach my frame building classes) visited him just a couple days before Brian died. Apparently neither one realized how near the very end it was going to be for Brian. Herbie helped Brian carry his oxygen tank (for breathing) around as he showed him his shop.

What I got from reading Brian’s words is that sometimes’s the public’s reputation of a builder and the actual quality of what they do are not the same. Mario Confente can be judged from several points of view. European bicycle frames made in the early 70’s were generally made to a price a working class person could afford. I paid $350 for my Confente made fully Campy equipped Italian Masi in the fall of 1972. It was made superior to most european frames of that time period but not what is possible if someone like Brian took his time. So compared to European contemporaries a Confente is better but it is not at the same level an American can do now. The price difference allows for extra work.

Another thing I got from his post is that some people don’t like working with each other.

Where I learned how to build frames in 1975 at Ellis Briggs in Shipley was 17 miles from Bob Jackson in Leeds. They were gracious in allowing me to visit their frame shop. There were like 6 young guys (late teens/early 20s) working under a foreman that could make several frames a day. At that time a painted 531 frame cost just over $100. There would be no profit margin if they spent a longer time fussing with lug filing and other niceties. Where I was at Ellis Briggs, Andrew and I would take the better part of a week to make one frame. Jack Briggs didn’t need the income from the frame business for his multi-employee bike shop. They provided prestige. But a typical customer would look at the paint job and price and base his opinion on that rather then some other time consuming details. Brian liked to customize lugs and put frills on a paint job (as do I) and could easily spend 100 or more hours per frame. I can't speak for him but I am sure it was frustrating when a less knowledgeable person couldn't see the difference between something like a Jackson and his frames.

[Vonruden]

This one is getting miles, however only on sunny days when the road salt has washed away.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/CA9E6996-E713-4176-9513-CDA7EA901966_zpss1l5hhk7.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/CA9E6996-E713-4176-9513-CDA7EA901966_zpss1l5hhk7.jpg.html)
Brake Details
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/6DF87B23-3F7F-44FA-8EBB-E51879CB4615_zpsnpouv4rr.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/6DF87B23-3F7F-44FA-8EBB-E51879CB4615_zpsnpouv4rr.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/A609D726-E5C3-4C50-959E-C846C0266979_zpshim9xlk6.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/A609D726-E5C3-4C50-959E-C846C0266979_zpshim9xlk6.jpg.html)
On the road again...
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/C5832DD1-F4D9-40EC-814F-F024806EC892_zpsozguapmx.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/C5832DD1-F4D9-40EC-814F-F024806EC892_zpsozguapmx.jpg.html)
Bocce courts
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/18A01C46-A481-45EE-870E-21A4F37877F2_zpsuuqemmim.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/18A01C46-A481-45EE-870E-21A4F37877F2_zpsuuqemmim.jpg.html)
Bilenky did a nice job repairing a damaged drop out
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/4302C157-B396-4A6D-B757-F15FC5D97688_zpsxtrexh15.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/4302C157-B396-4A6D-B757-F15FC5D97688_zpsxtrexh15.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/A8537DBC-7950-40C3-9016-C6BD5B51264E_zps49gw852w.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/A8537DBC-7950-40C3-9016-C6BD5B51264E_zps49gw852w.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/1FF0ECAC-BE74-44B7-8C19-37C59460E800_zpsg6mdzxa4.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/1FF0ECAC-BE74-44B7-8C19-37C59460E800_zpsg6mdzxa4.jpg.html)

[pbarry]

^^ What a gem! Nice work with the restoration and build. Thanks for posting. :beer:

[duff_duffy]

Beautiful build, love the groupset.

This one is getting miles, however only on sunny days when the road salt has washed away.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/CA9E6996-E713-4176-9513-CDA7EA901966_zpss1l5hhk7.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/CA9E6996-E713-4176-9513-CDA7EA901966_zpss1l5hhk7.jpg.html)
Brake Details
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/6DF87B23-3F7F-44FA-8EBB-E51879CB4615_zpsnpouv4rr.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/6DF87B23-3F7F-44FA-8EBB-E51879CB4615_zpsnpouv4rr.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/A609D726-E5C3-4C50-959E-C846C0266979_zpshim9xlk6.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/A609D726-E5C3-4C50-959E-C846C0266979_zpshim9xlk6.jpg.html)
On the road again...
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/C5832DD1-F4D9-40EC-814F-F024806EC892_zpsozguapmx.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/C5832DD1-F4D9-40EC-814F-F024806EC892_zpsozguapmx.jpg.html)
Bocce courts
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/18A01C46-A481-45EE-870E-21A4F37877F2_zpsuuqemmim.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/18A01C46-A481-45EE-870E-21A4F37877F2_zpsuuqemmim.jpg.html)
Bilenky did a nice job repairing a damaged drop out
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/4302C157-B396-4A6D-B757-F15FC5D97688_zpsxtrexh15.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/4302C157-B396-4A6D-B757-F15FC5D97688_zpsxtrexh15.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/A8537DBC-7950-40C3-9016-C6BD5B51264E_zps49gw852w.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/A8537DBC-7950-40C3-9016-C6BD5B51264E_zps49gw852w.jpg.html)

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj533/vonruden1/1FF0ECAC-BE74-44B7-8C19-37C59460E800_zpsg6mdzxa4.jpg (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/vonruden1/media/1FF0ECAC-BE74-44B7-8C19-37C59460E800_zpsg6mdzxa4.jpg.html)

[Devotion]

Wow. LOVE the color. Did Bilenky do the paint?

[Vonruden]

Wow. LOVE the color. Did Bilenky do the paint?

Paint is original, however he matched the dropout perfectly.

[Waldo]

Snip: Yes--Mike Howard. He's been on the CR list off and on, and I remember that fairly recently he and Baylis had a plan to make some more bikes under the Wizard name, but I don't know if that came to fruition or not before Brian died.

I believe a handful of new Wizards were delivered to a lucky few.

[El Chaba]

Great bike VonRuden!

[bocobiking]

So, I’m a person who enjoys lugged steel frames from the 70’s and 80’s. I love the ride on all of my bikes, which include an early Richard Sachs, a Columbine, a Paramount, and a Gangl. I’ve always been proud of my stable of beautiful classic bikes, but now I’m wondering, if a Confente is considered a mediocre bike, maybe mine are just mediocre.

I know I’m just a “layman” when it comes to knowing about frames, so I’m wondering if those of you who are a bit more expert could educate me on how you assess the quality of a frame.

[smontanaro]

So, I’m a person who enjoys lugged steel frames from the 70’s and 80’s. I love the ride on all of my bikes, which include an early Richard Sachs, a Columbine, a Paramount, and a Gangl. I’ve always been proud of my stable of beautiful classic bikes, but now I’m wondering, if a Confente is considered a mediocre bike, maybe mine are just mediocre.

I know I’m just a “layman” when it comes to knowing about frames, so I’m wondering if those of you who are a bit more expert could educate me on how you assess the quality of a frame.I think you're good. ;)

I think it's hard to divorce the mystique from the craftsmanship. You also have to consider that Confente was only 33 when he died. Had he lived and continued producing frames in the US for another 30+ years, who's to say that his quality wouldn't have rivaled current and recent American framebuilders? Or that the mystique would be lessened as his frame count increased?

[bocobiking]

I think you're good. ;)

I think it's hard to divorce the mystique from the craftsmanship. You also have to consider that Confente was only 33 when he died. Had he lived and continued producing frames in the US for another 30+ years, who's to say that his quality wouldn't have rivaled current and recent American framebuilders? Or that the mystique would be lessened as his frame count increased?

Not answering my question. I’m just curious about the technical aspects of frames that separate the good from the great ones.

[smontanaro]

I'm suggesting that the question you asked basically can't be answered. It's kind of like comparing football or baseball players or teams across eras, though made more difficult by the mystique surrounding Confente's early demise and lack of statistically significant production quantities by upon which to base such a comparison. Many of those frames have, over the years, probably been further breathed on by folks like Brian Baylis, Joe Bell, Cyclart, or other widely acknowledged master painters/framebuilders.

You have frames from three great builders. I think you have to leave it at that and go ride the bloody bike(s).Not answering my question. I’m just curious about the technical aspects of frames that separate the good from the great ones.

[jr59]

So, I’m a person who enjoys lugged steel frames from the 70’s and 80’s. I love the ride on all of my bikes, which include an early Richard Sachs, a Columbine, a Paramount, and a Gangl. I’ve always been proud of my stable of beautiful classic bikes, but now I’m wondering, if a Confente is considered a mediocre bike, maybe mine are just mediocre.

I know I’m just a “layman” when it comes to knowing about frames, so I’m wondering if those of you who are a bit more expert could educate me on how you assess the quality of a frame.

Do you like them? I will assume that you enjoy riding them. Then they are golden.

I’v Had a bunch of great frames, some I loved dearly and some not so much. The idea of any bike is one of a couple of things. First, do you enjoy the way it looks? Second would be does it function the way it’s supposed to. And third would be do you enjoy riding it?

If it/they do all of that. Who stinking cares what anyone thinks about them? Let them ride there own ride.

[spoonrobot]

The quote from Baylis posted in post 26 of this thread suggests there is an answer and it would be interesting to hear.

Like Dale said it would be interesting for a group of knowledgeable (read

frame builders) people to get together with massive quantities of exotic

frames and sort of rate the frames based only on the quality of the work

and design of the bike. I got a good start this afternoon as I pointed

out lots of details of construction to someone who knows bikes as young

a racer, to bike mechanic, to collector/rider over most of his life. He

had no idea there were so many minute details that one could inspected

for quality and execution. My talk last year at Velo Rendezvous was

centered around this topic. My presentation this year will probably

revolve around the concept of “Replica VS. Counterfeit” and will include

lots of these details. Perhaps one thing we as a group might undertake

at this years Velo Rendezvous would be one of these open air side by

side comparisons of a number of “big name” frames. I promise to open

lots of eyes if it takes place.

[bocobiking]

The quote from Baylis posted in post 26 of this thread suggests there is an answer and it would be interesting to hear.

Exactly. Baylis seems to assume that there are objective measures of frame quality, while many of the above answers seem to indicate that such quality is subjective.

I’m really not worried about my own bikes; I love them all. It was just that Baylis’s comments got me curious.

It would be interesting for me to know what differences to look for in the bikes, say, of two constructeurs both of whom built with, say, 531 in the same era and who had similar reputations. Or, the differences in quality between high end bikes of different eras.

Baylis indicates that there are objective answers to these questions, but so far all I’ve read seems like when I hear oenologists describing the differences in wines: fuzziness that is confusing at best. Such statements and descriptions make it sound like there is some esoteric knowledge that you either get or you don’t; it can’t be explained.

I probably shouldn’t belabor the point to this extent; it isn’t that important. And I don’t want to seem disrespectful to everyone who has answered. I was at Eroica California in April and saw a beautiful Confente win first place on the Concours d’ Elegance. I think Baylis’s dismissiveness just kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

[unterhausen]

I think his statement was a little overblown. I look at framebuilder's construction pics and find nitpicky things that very few people would ever see and make absolutely no difference to anyone that matters. Good frames are made by humans, it's best not to apply unreasonable standards to them. I'm not saying builders haven't shipped frames they shouldn't, but that's usually not particularly easy to tell from just looking.

[Waldo]

I think his statement was a little overblown. I look at framebuilder's construction pics and find nitpicky things that very few people would ever see and make absolutely no difference to anyone that matters. Good frames are made by humans, it's best not to apply unreasonable standards to them. I'm not saying builders haven't shipped frames they shouldn't, but that's usually not particularly easy to tell from just looking.

There's a framebuilder guy whose motto is "imperfection is perfection." I've heard he does OK.

[Vonruden]

Great bike VonRuden!

Thanks all!! I have to say, when riding, reminds me of my Sachs...its just feels right.

[bikingshearer]

There are objective factors (stuff Brian Baylis was talking about) and subjective factors that go into making a frame more or less desirable. There are endless possible permutations of those factors that lead to endless variations in perceived desirability.

In the case of a Confente, there appears to be a perfect storm of good (or better) build quality, pleasing aesthetics, and a very low supply caused by what I'll call the James Dean Syndrome. Dean was a good actor, maybe even a great actor, and showed the potential to be at the top of the heap for many years to come. But it is Dean's tragic death at far too young an age that keeps his memory in the pubic's imagination in a way that his contemporaries Sal Mineo or even Marlon Brando aren't. With Confente, as with Dean, it isn't any one factor in isolation that places him in the pantheon, but it is the tragic young death cutting off great potential that places him so high in that pantheon.

None of this is a knock on Mario (or on James Dean). they were both very good at what they did. And my guess is that both of them, had they known the iconic status their deaths conferred on them, would have traded that status for 30 or 40 more years of doing their respective things. But their stories capture the imagination, and that drives up the popularity of Dean and the perceived value of Confente frames. It isn't good, it isn't bad. It just is.