Carbon Wheels gripes.

[tylercheung]

Saturday night mulling...this is one of those industry trends, which seem to go hand in hand w/ disc brakes. Everyone (journalist wise) seems to write how these things are the best thing since sliced bread. The pricing is still out of reach for what I think "acceptable".

I mean - $600 or so for a new Archetype alloy build, maybe $900-1200 for nicer stuff, i.e. HED, CK hubs.


Vs. at least $1500 for say, a Reynolds wheelset, (maybe less now w/ discounts), and the ENVE's approaching $3,000....yowza....

And I'm sure they're good but are they 2-4x as good?

I think hopefully the technology matures enough so it becomes price competitive, but for someone who just wants to ride bikes in cool places and not racing, it's hard to NOT stick w/ alloy...

[kppolich]

Define 'good'

If good is lighter- then maybe, but my HEDs with alloy brake track are just as aero and stop better than any carbon wheelset out there, I don't care what kind of gimmick carbon brake track you have.

Add in the disc brake variable where the braking surface is removed and you might have something. The differences between a Zipp 404 and HED Jet 6 are absolutely zero. They are both 'deep' section wheels. On is full carbon and one isn't.

[fogrider]

if you want to ride and faster, aero is where it's at. the deeper the faster. if it's windy, then tougher to control, but still manageable around 40mm. if you want hill climbing, you want lightweight. Reynolds makes a pad that works really well, it's almost as good as with aluminum rims (enough power to lock up the rear wheel). I've found that the braking is fine for the roads around the San Francisco Bay Area. I have a bike with disc brakes and its great, but it's just not going to climb like my bike with lightweight carbon climbing wheels!

As for cost, there's always tubulars in the used market. I know some folks are afraid of tubulars, but its really not that hard, and you can always use tape.

[dem]

I look to China for what the "real" cost of these items are, since that's where they're all made, so by that standard I'd expect the cost will eventually drop due to competition. You can get a set of deep, wide carbon clinchers for $500 (plenty of threads on if this is a good idea or not, I'm just referring to the price point.)

I was tempted to try these out but I still can't get myself to ride carbon rim-brake clinchers, even for sunny day only.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/FLT-700c-Carbon-Road-Bike-Wheel-J-Hook-EZO-Bearings-25mm-Wider-Tubeless-Clincher-Wheelset-Anti/1081104_32950354235.html

30mm: 1315g +/-5%
38mm: 1235g +/-5%
45mm: 1375g +/-5%
50mm: 1295g +/-5%
60mm: 1455g +/-5%
88mm: 1815g +/-5%

[oldpotatoe]

Saturday night mulling...this is one of those industry trends, which seem to go hand in hand w/ disc brakes. Everyone (journalist wise) seems to write how these things are the best thing since sliced bread. The pricing is still out of reach for what I think "acceptable".

I mean - $600 or so for a new Archetype alloy build, maybe $900-1200 for nicer stuff, i.e. HED, CK hubs.


Vs. at least $1500 for say, a Reynolds wheelset, (maybe less now w/ discounts), and the ENVE's approaching $3,000....yowza....

And I'm sure they're good but are they 2-4x as good?

I think hopefully the technology matures enough so it becomes price competitive, but for someone who just wants to ride bikes in cool places and not racing, it's hard to NOT stick w/ alloy...

Of course not and in some ways not as good..

'win on sunday, sell on monday'..I doubt ANY $1550-$LOT$ addition to any bike will make a yuge performance difference. Carbon wheels, along with their big $ is the stuff of the marketing department, not the engineering department. They even fail the $1 per gram, weight savings..particularly carbon clinchers..right up there with ceramic bearings. IMHO, of course.

[ergott]

I think hopefully the technology matures enough so it becomes price competitive, but for someone who just wants to ride bikes in cool places and not racing, it's hard to NOT stick w/ alloy...


It already has matured. Look at the offerings from Boyd, Nox, and FSE. They are all excellent and nowhere near the price of the most expensive wheels out there.

[oldpotatoe]

It already has matured. Look at the offerings from Boyd, Nox, and FSE. They are all excellent and nowhere near the price of the most expensive wheels out there.

But still $1000+ with pretty basic, private label hubs..

[ergott]

But still $1000+ with pretty basic, private label hubs..

Boyd hubs aren't off the shelf, he has his own shells to spec. The flange spacing is improved which is real nice. I've built a few sets with them already. Best part for customers is they are like DT in that you can swap endcaps for compatibility to your hearts desire. Bonus, you don't need special tools for a complete overhaul.

[macaroon]

$849 with DT 240 hubs from a reputable builder.

https://www.wheelsfar.com/50mm-x-25mm-carbon-clincher-with-dt240s-model-fsc50-cm-25u.html

I have a pair and they've been very reliable, although I've not done any really long descents on them with prolonged braking. The rims are possibly slightly overbuilt as they appear to be heavier than a comparable Enve rim.

[Mzilliox]

i get you OP. i think many miss the point of your post. the gains per dollar are not there, most of us ride them because they look cool, lets be honest.

if you depend on race wins, find that marginal gain, if you ride to ride, they are virtually worthless in comparison.

[mhespenheide]

...for someone who just wants to ride bikes in cool places and not racing, it's hard to NOT stick w/ alloy...

You're probably describing at least 80% of Paceline members, if not 90 or 95%. And most of those members are either on aluminum rims or admit that carbon wheels are a "marginal gain". If you don't need or want that margin, stick with alloy and be content.


Edit: On review, what mzilliox said.

[Burnette]

i get you OP. i think many miss the point of your post. the gains per dollar are not there, most of us ride them because they look cool, lets be honest.

if you depend on race wins, find that marginal gain, if you ride to ride, they are virtually worthless in comparison.

Oh what a hole we dig if you base everything off of function and need! Look at any Rapha or Assos thread and read the passion and hypocrisy, it's just clothing!

Super Record, Dura Ace, Oakley Shades and Starbucks coffee, purchases of the heart though they'll fight you tooth and nail how it's all so much better and worth it. And to that I say, awesome. Get that jersey, group, shades and cup if Joe if you like it, no qualms from me.

Life is for living, explore it and enjoy it. If budget is a thing OP should go used, there are always wheels of every stripe for sale in all bike classifieds.

OP should give them a go and decide for him/her self.

[FlashUNC]

If you prefer tubulars, there's zero reason to ride alloy tubular rims.

[oldpotatoe]

If you prefer tubulars, there's zero reason to ride alloy tubular rims.

Except they are less $..I just built a set of DT350/HED tubular rims for about $650...24/28..Sapim Race. Not sayin some of the no name, private label stuff doesn't work but....

[peanutgallery]

I stuck a pair of carbon wheels on a plus bike, it saved well over a pound of rolling weight and really changed the feel of that particular bike. I thought it was worth the extra dough

As far as the rim versus disc? That dilemma has been solved for you, plus you'll have plenty of room for all those 700x28 Paselas that you all seem to like

[Caballero]

If you prefer tubulars, there's zero reason to ride alloy tubular rims.

Some of the fastest/nicest riding wheels I’ve ridden were hed c2 tubs, cx rays with wheels mfg hubs.
Absolutely amazing both up and down on alpine passes in rain and drizzle.
But then again my hyperons are pretty damn nice too !

[El Chaba]

A point -that is usually overlooked-needs to be made about the aero benefits of carbon wheels. Something around 40 mm is the practical limit for anything but races against the clock. Now, it's hard to find objective-that is non-manufacturer sponsored- testing for aero benefits. Additionally most testing is done at exaggerated speeds e.g. 50 kmh. From the various testing available, I would make an educated guess of a savings of about 10 watts at 35 kmh for wheels of that depth....and those savings largely disappear when not riding at the front or alone.

[sparky33]

A nice set of alloy wheels with high quality hubs is hard to fault, but a good set of carbon wheels is something special, especially for a disc situation. They spin up quickly, and (most) ride pretty well. I like riding carbon wheels, so they are worth it.

Boyd wheels are great, as are current Nox wheels.

....Recently I splurged for a set of 650b Enve G27s on WI hubs, and I have to say that they are awesome. Yes, I can feel that they ride notably smooth. The tubeless set up is a snap. I haven't figured out if the super wide internal 27mm is better or just different.

Stan's No Tubes carbon wheels are a good value. The hubs are easy to service and to adapt to your axle/freehub preference. They are light and comfortable. The warranty and customer service is good.

[zap]

edit

Additionally most testing is done at exaggerated speeds e.g. 50 kmh.

That's paceline speed on every WC ride on earth.......sprints go from there.

[Davist]

Saturday night mulling...this is one of those industry trends, which seem to go hand in hand w/ disc brakes. Everyone (journalist wise) seems to write how these things are the best thing since sliced bread. The pricing is still out of reach for what I think "acceptable".

I mean - $600 or so for a new Archetype alloy build, maybe $900-1200 for nicer stuff, i.e. HED, CK hubs.


Vs. at least $1500 for say, a Reynolds wheelset, (maybe less now w/ discounts), and the ENVE's approaching $3,000....yowza....

And I'm sure they're good but are they 2-4x as good?

I think hopefully the technology matures enough so it becomes price competitive, but for someone who just wants to ride bikes in cool places and not racing, it's hard to NOT stick w/ alloy...

I, too, went with Farsports 45mmx25w disc specific for my bike, got DT350s, Xray spokes for around $800. I built some archetypes with BHS hubs and liked them very much for around $500, I wanted HED Belgiums, but couldn't justify ~$1k for them. As for carbon, like you, I didn't think they were "worth" 4x as much. I can state, in my case this was a good decision and there is a performance edge, especially at 20+mph as everyone says. Also, I wanted "good" hubs, since I couldn't afford enve, I got DT and Farsports. (I don't consider zipps good hubs, due to my peer group and recalls, not to mention the ~300 mile maintenance interval). Added bonus is wider rims, wide tires, less flats, cushy ride..

[ergott]

A point -that is usually overlooked-needs to be made about the aero benefits of carbon wheels. Something around 40 mm is the practical limit for anything but races against the clock. Now, it's hard to find objective-that is non-manufacturer sponsored- testing for aero benefits. Additionally most testing is done at exaggerated speeds e.g. 50 kmh. From the various testing available, I would make an educated guess of a savings of about 10 watts at 35 kmh for wheels of that depth....and those savings largely disappear when not riding at the front or alone.

10w @ 35kmh is pretty close to this test which isn't from a manufacturer.

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bicycle-wheel-aerodynamics-which-one-is-fastest

The bigger news is that at 50kmh it's closer to 40w for aero wheels which I'm very happy to have on the bike (60mm Boyds). At FTP level power I'm riding more like 40kmh so if the savings at that speed is even 15-18w I'll sure as hell take it. Chances are I'm on the front of the group.

[shinomaster]

Of course not and in some ways not as good..

'win on sunday, sell on monday'..I doubt ANY $1550-$LOT$ addition to any bike will make a yuge performance difference. Carbon wheels, along with their big $ is the stuff of the marketing department, not the engineering department. They even fail the $1 per gram, weight savings..particularly carbon clinchers..right up there with ceramic bearings. IMHO, of course.

Hey the ceramic bearings on my Shamals are amazing.

[pdmtong]

You're probably describing at least 80% of Paceline members, if not 90 or 95%. And most of those members are either on aluminum rims or admit that carbon wheels are a "marginal gain". If you don't need or want that margin, stick with alloy and be content. Edit: On review, what mzilliox said.

Based on my basic 21/1000 loop from home I am consistently faster on Bora Ones...I was expecting marginal gains but for me the gain is real and noticeable and comes without trying harder. They spin up faster hold speed longer and brake great.

[AngryScientist]

As we close in on 2019, and i look at the world around me, there are many things i can find to gripe about.

carbon fiber wheels, however; do not even blip the radar :D

[bigbill]

Last year I got the black Friday deal at Boyd with 60mm clinchers and the bonus set of Altamonts. The Altamonts are my "road" wheels for the gravel bike with 32mm tubeless Maxxis ReFuse. The carbon clinchers are nice, they handle well in cross winds and the hubs are quality. I got mine for a specific purpose. I want to do 12 and 24 hour time trials, most of which are relatively flat courses. Those rides are about finding an efficient pace and holding it for hours at a time. That's why I went with 60's. Boyds are well priced and they support their products. I'm sure their rims are sourced from Asia but from what I've read, they're made for Boyd and not open mold.

[b33]

As we close in on 2019, and i look at the world around me, there are many things i can find to gripe about.

carbon fiber wheels, however; do not even blip the radar :D

I loved, loved, loved reading this. Thank you.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey the ceramic bearings on my Shamals are amazing.

You forgot the :)

I'm happy you like ceramic bearings in Campag..they have gone 'all in' on that sort of thing..BB, wheels, even pulleys BUT...you know what I'm gonna say so I won't say it...another->:)

[Kirk007]

They may not make me faster but they make me feel good. Paceliners classifieds + the down market for tubulars is our friend.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/dda57531f9dbe4bead56b4cda1468b55.jpg

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[berserk87]

As we close in on 2019, and i look at the world around me, there are many things i can find to gripe about.

carbon fiber wheels, however; do not even blip the radar :D

As a moderator, surely you appreciate that this is a discussion forum about bike stuff. You can negate virtually any comment's validity with an application of perspective versus the outside world.

[Wayne77]

Price, Performance, Use Case. Those are all 3 independent variables. A discussion about the merits of carbon fiber (or any material for that mater), without treating those as independemt considerations isn’t going to uncover anything new that countless other threads like this over the years haven’t already. Not saying they aren’t interesting discussions. They do however have all the same classic personas weighing in. I bring that up as a case in point; many of these classic personas chime in with statements that are not surprising because they are more often than not perfectly valid for their particular use case. experienced long time old school bike shop person, races and has the budget for the latest and greatest, races and doesn’t have the budget but still drops those silly people on their 10K carbon bikes, doesn’t race doesn’t care buys all the cool stuff for the fun of it, 10,000 mile a year guy, owns 20 bikes person, etc etc. We all fit somewhere in that spectrum and the great thing is that there’s no reason said tech can’t be the greatest thing ever on one day and the stupidest thing ever on another.

Some days I fit into one stereotype or another and some days I don’t. I suspect that’s the case for many of us.

All that said, if someone can point me to some 50mm deep aluminum wheels anywhere near as light as a set of 50mm Bora Ultra tubulars I race on, I’m all ears. Side note: my clincher racing friends often assume I’m a tubular snob. While I may project that vibe deep down I know that I race (and train!) on tubulars because it’s a great way to score some sweet CF wheels for a price I can afford...and also because that’s what I have and don’t want to add another format to my stable...wishing on some days that I could try some of the newer super sweet riding clinchers tires and see how I like it.

Long story short, let’s call a spade a spade and admit that our preferences can be irrational on one day and rational on the next; they are every bit driven by our current cycling lifestyle, emotions, and passions as they are logic.

So the next time I go off on how awesome whatever the material or tech du jour is, know where I’m coming from and take that opinion as a grain of salt. :-)

[redir]

Definitely check out the classifieds right here on the forum. In the last year I scored a set of Zipp 303's for $300 bucks. They were ten speed but 15 minutes with a file and they are now 11-speed. I also scored a set of Revolutions Wheelworks for $250 bucks. If you want rim break and probably even tubular then you can find these for a song now. And typically when people buy expensive wheels like that they only use them on race days so often times they are low miles.

I pretty much don't ride anything but carbon now because they are so easy to get cheap.

[Clean39T]

Pair of Aeolus 5s at theproscloset for ~$450 in what appears to be great shape. Solid deal, imho.

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[Clean39T]

They may not make me faster but they make me feel good. Paceliners classifieds + the down market for tubulars is our friend.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/dda57531f9dbe4bead56b4cda1468b55.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TapatalkThem Hyperons are mighty nice looking - but I'll be honest, I mostly just see the gorgeous frameset...

Lemme know if you get bored with either ;)

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