Do you ride steel racing frame differently ?

[l0n3rider]

hi ALL,
sorry if this topic was discussed before. Maybe i didn't searched enough ..

anyway .. i recently changed my riding bike to a steel frame. Bixxis Prima to be exact. only the frame is changed. other components were transferred from my previous bike. previously i was riding Legend HT7.5, a carbon frame.

A little bit of background; i started of with Boardman SLR9.0, then moved to Colnago EPS before the Legend ..

so i have been riding carbon frame for almost 7 years ( i started in 2011) .. and recently moved to steel frame, Bixxis Prima.

The change was due to curiosity .. as well as I really like the classic look. I have been riding it for a month now .. and i'm struggling with it

so do we ride steel frame differently? .. i guess i'm struggling to be fast and responsive .. i do not really mind the extra weight .. but it takes more effort to close the gap in peloton and surprisingly .. if i freewheeling during a short descend .. it is noticeably slower than my carbon frame .. i thought the extra weight should give it more speed ..

any advice/tips/tricks on riding steel frame?

[weisan]

This is going to be good!

[l0n3rider]

me and my bike.. i guess i never really introduced myself before

[bikinchris]

The frame is probably not slowing you down. To me, it sounds like you have something else wrong. Like hub adjustment, brake dragging, wheel out of true etc.

[sitzmark]

I've had that feeling/experience when swapping components or setting up a new bike. Has your position on the bike changed? Not likely that the frame itself is slowing you down, but if you're not as comfortable/fluid on the new bike you won't be as efficient as on the old frame. Doesn't take a lot of variance to change the aerodynamics of body position, which can make a significant difference in perceived effort and/or actual performance.

[rccardr]

Why are you using such a long cage derailleur?
Guy pictured in front of you has some huge rear cogs. Why? Where are you riding?
Is the Bixxis the right frame for where you ride and the type of riding you do?

[l0n3rider]

many thanks for the reply so far ..

@bikinchris
the bike is setup by my trusted mechanic .. and he had checked everything. it is unlikely the other components contribute to the issue .. but anyhow i will check again .. thanks

@sitzmark
the fit numbers are a bit different, especially the saddle setback due to the frame geometry .. Legend was a custom geometry frame .. Bixxis is standard geometry with a steeper seat tube angle (i got it 2nd hand) .. however, to me as long as can get my usual pedaling style/technique .. fit numbers are secondary .. since i believe fit numbers are heavily influence by pedaling technique/style .. i could be wrong .. will keep improving my position .. thanks

@rccardr
it is a standard cage for campagnolo sr 11speed .. my largest cog is 29 .. maybe the angle of the photo ..

[mtechnica]

Not all steel frames are made equal. I had a frame made from Reynolds 853 that I eventually grew fed up with because it always felt so sluggish uphill, nice frame with a carbon fork too and it fit and handled well. The carbon frame I replaced it with - same components - blew it out of the water. My SLX Merckx is heavy but doesn’t feel sluggish at all so I think it just depends.

[hokoman]

seat is too high, not aero enough.






:)

[Lanternrouge]

I'd like to see pictures of both the Legend and the Bixxis in the galleries.

[rccardr]

Aha.

I suspect saddle position is the culprit here. Your butt and your femur need to be in the same place relative to the crank center if you expect the same wattage from the same effort. Back in the day, before we got gray hair, us oldsters used to call this 'setback'.

I still pay close attention to it; with 18 bikes in the stable, you gotta make some allowances for different frame designs...

[l0n3rider]

I'd like to see pictures of both the Legend and the Bixxis in the galleries.

here is my previous frame.. legend HT7.5

[l0n3rider]

@mtechnica
.. really hope this is not the case here. i really luv the look of this frame

@hokoman @rccardr
.. thanks. will keep improving my position.. will let u guys know if it improved

all,
i have this input from a friend which has been riding steel frame for a while.. according to him.. steel frame needs to be ride differently.. we need to be more calm.. do not stomp the pedal for power.. but gradually increase your power to increase speed gradually.. do not panic when the gap is opened.. you will close the gap eventually.. steel has momentum.. not fast reaction..

true?

[fa63]

Not really; I close the gaps the same way on my steel frame... Steel does have a more muted ride though, which might make one think that it is slower. That said, all my personal bests have been achieved on a steel frame, so go figure.

[Peter P.]

@mtechnica
@hokoman @rccardr
.. thanks. will keep improving my position.. will let u guys know if it improved

all,
i have this input from a friend which has been riding steel frame for a while.. according to him.. steel frame needs to be ride differently.. we need to be more calm.. do not stomp the pedal for power.. but gradually increase your power to increase speed gradually.. do not panic when the gap is opened.. you will close the gap eventually.. steel has momentum.. not fast reaction..

true?

It's your position?! You need to ride a steel bike differently?!

It's all nonsense and drama!

[hokoman]

You don't ride your steel vs. misc material any differently. They will feel a little different, but not make riding adjustments. Your seat height is the same on both bikes?

[mtechnica]

@mtechnica
.. really hope this is not the case here. i really luv the look of this frame

@hokoman @rccardr
.. thanks. will keep improving my position.. will let u guys know if it improved

all,
i have this input from a friend which has been riding steel frame for a while.. according to him.. steel frame needs to be ride differently.. we need to be more calm.. do not stomp the pedal for power.. but gradually increase your power to increase speed gradually.. do not panic when the gap is opened.. you will close the gap eventually.. steel has momentum.. not fast reaction..

true?

If the frame feels bad you’re better off accepting it and moving on instead of trying to convince yourself it isn’t true, in my experience, I should have ditched my frame sooner but everyone on the internet would have sworn up and down it was a great frame so...:help:

[bironi]

Trust your gut.

[Lionel]

If the frame feels bad you’re better off accepting it and moving on instead of trying to convince yourself it isn’t true, in my experience, I should have ditched my frame sooner but everyone on the internet would have sworn up and down it was a great frame so...:help:

My view as well

[jtbadge]

You don't ride your steel vs. misc material any differently. They will feel a little different, but not make riding adjustments. Your seat height is the same on both bikes?

Saddle height, saddle setback behind BB, reach from saddle -> bars, saddle->bar drop, gotta check it all.

[FlashUNC]

If the frame feels bad you’re better off accepting it and moving on instead of trying to convince yourself it isn’t true, in my experience, I should have ditched my frame sooner but everyone on the internet would have sworn up and down it was a great frame so...:help:

Couldn't agree more with this. I've loved frames some friends have hated and vice versa. There's something qualitative about this whole hobby as well. If it isn't working, it isn't working.

[weisan]

ion-pal, I assume your Bixxis is a custom build. Did the custom build process include asking you a bunch of questions about your style of riding, preferences etc?

Assuming you answer those questions honestly and accurately, your custom builder would be able to factor those inputs into the build and transfer that into the ride.

To answer your question: Do you ride steel racing frame differently?

No, with the right frame, I shouldn't have to.

Take for instance, with my Serotta CXII steel bike, even though it was not custom, I was able to ride it as aggressively and capably as my other carbon and Ti racing bikes and my power numbers would tell the same story.

Because of that, I conclude that the material even though it was steel did not adversely affect my performance, at least not at my level of fitness and competitiveness. Maybe if I am Chris Froome or Mark Cavendish riding in the tour, it might be a different story at their level, I don't know for sure.

One last point.

I do have other steel bikes in my stable that are not as nimble or responsive as my Serotta. I attribute that to the design, geometry and perhaps old steel vs new steel like Columbus niobium/spirit vs Reynolds 531.

[l0n3rider]

all,
many thanks for the input so far .. really appreciate it.

so i guess .. the answer to my original question .. most probably "NO" .. the frame material should not give big influence to the way you ride your bike .. AND the difference in riding experience could potentially be due to fitting and bike design ..

my gut is to give this frame more time (maybe another month or two ).. and if i still struggle with it .. life is too precious to waste on riding a wrong bike

@weisan
this frame is not custom made for me .. i got it 2ndhand and the size should be correct for me.

cheers

[HTupolev]

all,
i have this input from a friend which has been riding steel frame for a while.. according to him.. steel frame needs to be ride differently.. we need to be more calm.. do not stomp the pedal for power.. but gradually increase your power to increase speed gradually.. do not panic when the gap is opened.. you will close the gap eventually.. steel has momentum.. not fast reaction..

true?
No. Having "momentum" doesn't help you close gaps: it means you'll slow down at a slower rate when you stop pedaling, (and that you'll accelerate more slowly when you're trying to increase your speed). But it doesn't change the power required to maintain a given speed.
Also, differences in frame mass are a pretty small fraction of bike+rider system mass. We're not talking about changes that should tangibly affect ride strategy.

Now, different bikes can respond differently to different pedal strokes. And that can differ between riders; a rider that pedals great for one rider might sometimes feel like it's fighting against the pedal stroke of another.
But I don't think it can be said, in general, that steel bikes don't like hard accelerations.

(It is entirely possible that your legs just don't like the bike. Although, this doesn't explain why it would coast worse downhill!)

the fit numbers are a bit different, especially the saddle setback due to the frame geometry .. Legend was a custom geometry frame .. Bixxis is standard geometry with a steeper seat tube angle (i got it 2nd hand)
Desired postures should dictate fit, not the frame geometry. (Frame geometry should be chosen based on the fit implied by your desired postures!)

It's pretty difficult to compare two bikes if you're riding them differently.

[Jere]

Hi

Did you try different wheels?
Low spoke count wheels will give a little , that may not have been noticed on a
Stiff Carbon bike and now it feels like you’re riding in mud ?
Wheels and tires can make a bike feel different
Jere B

[CMiller]

Saddle height, saddle setback behind BB, reach from saddle -> bars, saddle->bar drop, gotta check it all.

this! Set it up exactly the same

[simonov]

@weisan
this frame is not custom made for me .. i got it 2ndhand and the size should be correct for me.

cheers

There's more to how a frame rides than just the size. If your position is slightly different on this bike and the frame wasn't designed for you, all bets are off on whether it is the right bike.

You don't ride a bike differently because of the material. Different materials may feel different and have different ride characteristics, but you shouldn't need to approach how you ride them differently. FWIW, I have 3 bikes from the same builder with nearly identical geometry in 3 different materials. They each have their unique aspects, but there's no need to ride them differently, so to speak.

[chiasticon]

if i freewheeling during a short descend .. it is noticeably slower than my carbon frame ..this is difficult to actually quantify, especially given your carbon bike probably isn't built or isn't with you any more. but still...it shouldn't be happening. are you sure the frame is aligned properly? if the rear triangle is out of whack, two wheels not traveling on the same plane could definitely be slowing you down.

the good news is, steel that's out of alignment can be repaired. I'd have it checked by your trusted mechanic.

[fignon's barber]

For the record, I raced on a Canyon Ultimate CF SLX, had a custom Bixxis Prima built for me, and consequently sold the Canyon. I have not noticed a loss of speed. From your Bixxis photo, it looks like you have a short head tube and tons of spacers. I can't see the stem, but is that a -17? If so, I'd switch stems to a -6 and slice off a bunch of the steerer. If you can't get the steerer spacers reduced, I would guess you bought a frame too small (I see you got it second hand).

[redir]

I have steel, AL, Carbon and Ti bikes and they all ride the same. I mean yea they feel different but that doesn't mean I ride them any different. They got two pedals, a chain and resistance. It's just a bike ;)

[makoti]

I go back & forth between steel & carbon frames and notice no drop off in performance (if you can call my riding that) or comfort. I have had AL, Ti, Steel, Carbon. And despite knowing otherwise, the AL & Ti, a Trek 2000 & Merlin 1st gen, felt sluggish compared to my steel frame. Kind of dead. So, yeah, your steel frame may just not be a very lively, responsive frame. It may be that steel doesn't work for you. I agree with others - don't force ride something you're not enjoying.

[Jimbo251]

To the OP,
Having a Peg Marcelo, I seriously doubt that Bixxis is sluggish.
That said, one was custom to you and the other stock geo. Your fit is off or different than your legend. You mentioned that fit is secondary to pedaling technique? I think you are wrong. Fit is most important.

You need to set the Bixxis up identical (to the mm) to the legend. Then ride it for a few months. If your still not happy, then sell it.

I went through this with my Peg, I went from custom frames built for me to a stock Marcelo. I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to my fit and I tried 3 different stems with 3 different degrees. Finally I got my fit dialed and the Peg came alive underneath me. Like you I wasn't blow away at first, but the bike really came alive once my fit was dialed.

[mktng]

should switch out to Dura Ace.
it'll be faster.

:fight:

[Black Dog]

Perception is not reality.

[bambam]

Saddle height, saddle setback behind BB, reach from saddle -> bars, saddle->bar drop, gotta check it all.

This and I might concentrate on the saddle->bar drop.
If you have the old measure measurements look at them.

Keep in mind you need to measure the difference of the 2 not whether they are the same.

If you measure from the floor and they are the same this can be misleading because the BB drop may be different.

i.e the saddle height from the BB may be the same but from the ground it may not be because of different bottom bracket height.

Hard to tell from the different angles of the picture but the carbon bike (if its the blue one) looks like it has more saddle->bar drop. which will change your aero position and may slow you on the downhill's.

As far as riding differently Carbon vs. Steel. I don't think its a material thing but a stiffness thing.

I ride a lot of steel but when I got my MX leader (known to be stiff). I noticed it seem like it took 3 hard pedal strokes to feel like I was gaining speed compared to other steel bikes.
Right or wrong I attributed it to the lean out of the saddle and I may have been pushing a bit left and right. When I concentrated and started pushing down and backwards I noticed the power transfer didn't take 3 pedal strokes.

So I guess I ride my bikes differently. With a less stiff bike I think this emphasizes the use of the pull up for the same effect. If your a masher the pull up may not matter as much on a stiff bike.

Plus don't worry about the time to close the gap. If it gets closed it gets closed. worry more about overall the energy spent from the time you spin back up to the group or the time you mash back up almost to the group with the coast time to get there.

Firm believer that not all bikes ride the same and that's part of the enjoyment.

BamBam

[msl819]

To the OP,
Having a Peg Marcelo, I seriously doubt that Bixxis is sluggish.
That said, one was custom to you and the other stock geo. Your fit is off or different than your legend. You mentioned that fit is secondary to pedaling technique? I think you are wrong. Fit is most important.

You need to set the Bixxis up identical (to the mm) to the legend. Then ride it for a few months. If your still not happy, then sell it.

I went through this with my Peg, I went from custom frames built for me to a stock Marcelo. I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to my fit and I tried 3 different stems with 3 different degrees. Finally I got my fit dialed and the Peg came alive underneath me. Like you I wasn't blow away at first, but the bike really came alive once my fit was dialed.

This would be my almost exact thoughts as well. That said, do you have the fit info from your Legend? Do you have the numbers to match the numbers?

[93KgBike]

What is the difference in weight between the two bikes?

What are the diameters of the HTs and DTs on them?

[Mike V]

Just by looking at the first photo something looks off. The way your knee sits above your foot. Setback looks all wrong.

[Clancy]

I think what Peter is trying to say is that ride in a steel frame is no different than riding any other kind of frame. A frame makes up only a part of an overall bikes weight. The difference between a quality steel frame and a quality carbon frame in terms of weight is fairly insignificant compared to the overall weight of the bike. What I have found is that a steel frame bike will weigh 1 to 1 1/2 pounds more, which is not insignificant but doesn’t account for what you are describing.

I set my best times on my custom steel bike that weighs 19.5 lbs. I had a 15.5 carbon bike (Sarto) that was incredible but no faster than my Anderson

What I have found by far is one of the biggest differences in both actual and perceived riding qualities are the tires. A high-quality supple tire will pick up speed faster roll longer than a lower quality tire.

Fit certainly plays in here but I certainly would not go by what others think by looking at pictures you post. Not unless the picture was requested by an experienced fitter and was taken in the angle and position (s) the fitter requested. Even then, no substitute for being fitted by someone who knows what they’re doing. And that is a completely different rabbit hole you can disappear into.

[Clancy]

Just by looking at the first photo something looks off. The way your knee sits above your foot. Setback looks all wrong.

I agree!

And in the second picture, it’s easy to see your reach is all wrong.

Sigh

[hokoman]

Just by looking at the first photo something looks off. The way your knee sits above your foot. Setback looks all wrong.

I agree!

And in the second picture, it’s easy to see your reach is all wrong.

Sigh

That's why I said his seat looked too high!

[cmg]

on small frame bikes reach is usually the hardest problem to overcome. Most small frames have a reach 170 and above with a sta of 74 or more. trying to find a frame that's less than 170 is real challenge or a slacker STA. you may need something less. Straight seatpost on the Bixxis? saddle in the middle of the rails or pushed past center? Can you let go of the bars on the Bixxis without falling forward, keep your balance?

[m4rk540]

here is my previous frame.. legend HT7.5

Where are you located?

And, yes, the frame is too small. At least relative to the Legend.

[l0n3rider]

guys.. many thanks for the responds and concerns.. really appreciate it

i do not have many photos of me riding.. to check with you guys whether my fit is ok or not.. so far i feel comfortable with my setting.. but i'm open for improvement

not sure whether you can see my riding position from this photo of riding legend.. nothing changed much the way i setup bixxis.. except less saddle setback

like i said previously.. i will give this frame anothe month or two.. hopefully it works .. if not.. i'm open to options

btw.. i'm from malaysia (hopefully you guys know where it is 😊)

[Black Dog]

guys.. many thanks for the responds and concerns.. really appreciate it

i do not have many photos of me riding.. to check with you guys whether my fit is ok or not.. so far i feel comfortable with my setting.. but i'm open for improvement

not sure whether you can see my riding position from this photo of riding legend.. nothing changed much the way i setup bixxis.. except less saddle setback

like i said previously.. i will give this frame anothe month or two.. hopefully it works .. if not.. i'm open to options

btw.. i'm from malaysia (hopefully you guys know where it is 😊)

Changing your setback can have serious effects on comfort and performance.

[steelbikerider]

I have 2 main rides, A 2017 Gallium Pro(Jelly Belly team spare frame) with 9000 DA and a 20 year year old custom Hans Schneider steel frame with DA 7900. Set-up is almost identical (13 vs 14 stem but reach is the same) and the only difference in frame geometry is a 1 degree steeper head tube on the Schneider (73 vs. 74).
The Argon has a nice ride - stable, quick and stiff but no comfort issues in a 100 mile ride and I would buy another one without hesitation when I need a new frame. It is a solid race bike I enjoy even though I no longer race.
When I ride hard, the Schneider makes me smile. Maybe it doesn't jump as quick when i close a gap in a paceline, maybe the front end flexes a hair when I dive into a corner and maybe it softens the harshness of the road but it feels like I'm riding a hot rod, a 2 wheel version of a 60's musclecar. It will just motor on, no matter what and is still is a way better bike than I am a rider.

[ultraman6970]

THe 1st thing the op needs to do is to measure the wheelbase of those bikes, big chance the derosa-ish has a longer wheelbase, 1 or 3 cm makes a difference in the handling.

That stiffer is better to me is a marketing thing, too stiff and the wheels wont take it and you lose power there.

THe other detail is that some frames likes you seated further back than other ones, and yes steel and carbon feel different but there is a detail tho...the problem you have IMO has nothing to do with the material used, there is a chance it is a thing of you being seated in the bike (fit), you are in the wrong spot because the bike wants you somewhere else, the other big detail IMO is that the tubes in that derosaish are so different to anything like regular SL/SLX/MAX/EL-OS/etc tubing columbus made before that the frame reacts in another way when seated in the wrong spot. Speculating here because I doubt i will have the frame you have ever you know.

There is an article of a guy that got a c40, felt dead... after a long time realized he got the wrong frame size (had to go smaller to have the bike to feel like everybody feels it)... wheelbase was tad too long apparently... colnago wheelbase is longer, you fit more over the wheels than over the frame.

Hope this helps, it sucks when you put your coins in something it should work and nothing happens, been there and since you race apparently you are just used to have bikes behave one way, a non racer 70 y/o wont care if the bike feels like an 18 wheeler... ex racer here so I know where are you comming from, because I had my share of top tier stuff that did not work for me either, but in general even getting the wrong size with regular steel tubing (classic stuff) never had the problem you are describing but maybe with 1 colnago master i got when i was 16... had to return it and went back to my custom SL frame. Had an EM aluminum frame, apparently was the right size... did not work, just the same than you... a pinarello prince aluminum... same, just dead... took me years to figure it out that probably got the wrong size... doubt will try them again anyways, so hard to tell if im right or wrong in my conclusions.

Move the seat like 5 mm back and see how it feels (my hunch).

[velofinds]

btw.. i'm from malaysia (hopefully you guys know where it is 😊)

In your photos, I see a lot of you guys wearing bib knickers, which I find rather curious :)

[OtayBW]

Black frames are faster....:hello:

[l0n3rider]

In your photos, I see a lot of you guys wearing bib knickers, which I find rather curious :)

ohh ok.. i guess it's more of personal choice influenced by religion.. most of us are muslim.. i am not comfortable wearing shorts in public 😊.. but some of my friends do wear bib shorts.. no problem.. personal choice 😊

[Clancy]

Black frames are faster....:hello:

Word

[Fivethumbs]

Boss of the Bosberg. Steel and knickers.

[velofinds]

ohh ok.. i guess it's more of personal choice influenced by religion.. most of us are muslim.. i am not comfortable wearing shorts in public 😊.. but some of my friends do wear bib shorts.. no problem.. personal choice 😊

Interesting! I didn't know this.

[jamesdak]

Saddle height, saddle setback behind BB, reach from saddle -> bars, saddle->bar drop, gotta check it all.

^This!

I no longer have any C.F. (except for a NOS 99 Y-Foil 77 frame) but used to have two of them as well as over 25 steel bikes. Frames sizes range from 53cm to 57cm. The first step with each bike is dialing in the same fit. The saddle height and setback in relation to the bb are done first. Then the reach of the handlebars from the center of the saddle taking into consideration the saddle to bar drop. I do set some up a bit more aggressively here for personal reasons. Despite the similar fit though different bikes have different characteristics and ride differently. This is attributed to same many things vs just being steel or carbon fiber. So for me the answer is no I don't ride them differently. They do ride differently though.

[sillverchevy]

Interesting thread. I currently ride Gaulzettis, and just sold my Cervelo S5....to purchase one of the Officina Battalglin frames. I spoke in depth with Battaglin...worried about frame stiffness, flex, etc (I'm 83kilo...). I'm curious to see the difference between the stiffer Aluminum Cross, the S5, and now this Tig welded steel. Like all my frames, I get the numbers as close to each other as possible, regardless of material, and it has almost always worked out (Guru photon was the only rig I ever pushed that felt slow...go figure).

[Joxster]

Pedal faster with higher revs and just look Pro

[ultraman6970]

joxter, can you still do 40 km/h with 42/16 for an hour?

[l0n3rider]

guys,
i guess i owe you an update. i promised earlier, to report back. it is already March ..

so after few months with the bike .. maybe i get stronger, but i would like to think that i'm becoming more connected to the bike ..

few PRs on strava .. and my average speed are at least on par when i was with my Legend last time ..

my conclusion; steel and carbon react a bit differently to your pedal stroke. it will take sometimes for you to adjust accordingly IF this is the first time you switch between material .. BUT if you have both materials in your arsenal for quite sometimes already, you would not notice the adjustment because it becoming second nature to you already ..

ymmv

[Ruimteaapje]

...

[R3awak3n]

guys,
i guess i owe you an update. i promised earlier, to report back. it is already March ..

so after few months with the bike .. maybe i get stronger, but i would like to think that i'm becoming more connected to the bike ..

few PRs on strava .. and my average speed are at least on par when i was with my Legend last time ..

my conclusion; steel and carbon react a bit differently to your pedal stroke. it will take sometimes for you to adjust accordingly IF this is the first time you switch between material .. BUT if you have both materials in your arsenal for quite sometimes already, you would not notice the adjustment because it becoming second nature to you already ..

ymmv


I never really noticed a different in terms of speed... I feel slow with both materials but they surely do ride differently.

[unterhausen]

Thanks for letting us know how it turned out. If I change bikes and feel slower, it's usually because I missed out on transferring my position.

[Mark McM]

my conclusion; steel and carbon react a bit differently to your pedal stroke. it will take sometimes for you to adjust accordingly IF this is the first time you switch between material .. BUT if you have both materials in your arsenal for quite sometimes already, you would not notice the adjustment because it becoming second nature to you already ..

ymmv


It think you may be jumping ahead a few steps to reach your conclusion. I fully agree that different frames may react differently to pedal forces, especially if the frames differ in lateral and torsional stiffness. On my most flexible frame definitely pedal differently in max. power out of saddle sprint than I do on my stiffest frame. But where I think you're jumping to conclusions is in frame material alone being the determining factor in the characteristics of the frame.

[benb]

You never said what the fit difference was...

At a minimum you really need the saddle exactly the same.. unless for some reason your old position was wrong and the new position is correct and you just needed an adjustment period.

I need to ride a bit different on my steel bike instead of my carbon bike... but that's cause my steel bike is not a race bike and it weighs 8lbs more and has a much different set of tires. But the fit is millimeter perfect for the saddle on the two bikes.

[velofinds]

I feel slow with both materials but they surely do ride differently.

:highfive: