Japanese Collectors of Old Bits

[dbrk]

The serious collectors are at it...here is a pair of NOS Mafac Top 63 centerpulls on eBay...going currently for nearly $400. I've been following these sorts of auctions for years and have learned that there is NO competing with the Japanese collectors...if they want something, the sky has no limits. These brakes are favored on Herse, Singer, and comparable restorations or on the occasional Toei, Hirose, or Watanabe. http://cgi.ebay.com/MAFAC-Top-63-brake-callipers-NOS-Unmarked-and-fabulous_W0QQitemZ150058336622QQihZ005QQcategoryZ6 9825QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have long given up the notion that there is a moral or even a practical lesson to be drawn from how people spend their money or pursue their hobbies. If someone can afford it, more power to him (and it will be a "him," 'cause I've never met a woman in all these years as crazy as any man about old bike parts...or new). My only lament is that I can't compete with these prices and so am left on the sidelines cheering those who can. I love this old stuff, the peculiar histories, and the way it works. The best of it is just great; lots of it has been "surpassed." But it's worth a look sometimes to remind oneself that cycling is about a lot of things and all sorts of passions that put you on and off lots of different bikes. I'm grateful that cycling isn't only about riding, new stuff, and function though there's nothing wrong with that too.

dbrk

[Gothard]

In about all the hobby areas there are those whom you can not compete with, that have the means to get an object, at all costs. I have been in these zones in my life, and the only way around that is a good name and a reputation for being the right person, who will enjoy he item for what it is and what it brings to them, with no financial purpose whatsoever. In that case you may end up with the good things because there are sellers who think like you.
The "what it brings to the buyer" aspect is very personal, and it is all right for me, whatever they make of it.
The ones I do not like are the flippers, who will buy to re-sell later on at a profit, thereby driving the enthusiasts out of the market.

[sspielman]

You have to admire their taste. I have always found it very curious that they tend to favor mostly French brands, but also Campagnolo...while largely passing by their domestic products. Even with modern products, I find it interesting that certain boutique European brands are well represented in Japan but are almost unknown here in the US- the world's largest cycling market. Examples of this would be Dugast tubulars and Denti bicycles...

[ChrisK]

What I find fascinating is the inconsistency in prices. I recently bought a NOS rare Stronglight crank for $255, when a used one had gone for $452 a couple of years ago. (I bought this one to put on a bike and use everyday.)

Collectors are hard for some of us to understand. I enjoy owning and trying different bikes and gear, but owning too many at one time makes me uncomfortable. It's not a matter of cost, but I feel like life gets cluttered owning too much. Yet many people get great joy out of owning many bikes and collecting parts. I have an acquaintance who owns 50 high-end bikes and loves them all.

How many bikes do you, would you, own?

[sspielman]

There does seem to be a leveling out of price for some parts. I theorise that some of the most rabid collectors are getting closer to completeing their collections...and maybe it is not so important to add the sixth set of Mafac Competitions to their collection. Even still, their is no leveling out on the rarer parts in the best condition...and NOS Simplex derailleur from the 50's or a nice Ideale mod. 90 will never fail to astonish...

[Grant McLean]

I admire their taste too. There are many sophisticated collectors in Japan,
and gosh darn it, they're taking my size bikes too! Arrgh. :)

g

[weisan]

One person's junk is another person's treasure. A few months ago, I drove by a local bike dump and picked up a Bridgestone Kabuki SSD left on the ground with dozens other "mangled steel and rusted bolts" in what used to be bicycles that people can ride on. What the fathers has taken great care in accumulating, the sons would come next to clear them out of the attic as soon as the old gezzer is gone and the house is ready to sell for a tidy sum.

You want to find collection parts? Go to the local dumpster. No kiddin'.

Unfortunately, the Kabuki is a bit too big for me, 59-61cm range. Currently sitting in my storeroom waiting for its next admirer.

weisan

[rnhood]

The value of any item is basically what someone will pay for it, and if it's John Lennon's Mercedes 600, it'll be on the order of $1M. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFrHilG7tdM)

[deechee]

Just when I was thinking *I* had a problem with bikes. My family of Japanese origin, as well as numerous Japanese (born in Japan and Canada), Chinese(Candian Born Chinese, American Born Chinese, Born in China, Born in Hong Kong, Born in Malaysia), Philipino (born in the Phillipines) and Vietnamese (born in Canada) friends of mine have a packrat mentality that help us accumulate and collect tons and tons of useless, material posessions. Maybe it has something to do with this affliction.

But its also a timing thing I think. I know that myself, if I want something rare, I want it now. If that means I gotta outbid some other person at a price higher than I'd like, so be it. My time is valuable.

[Johny]

You gotta love these collectors when you are selling rare stuff on ebay. :)

[cpg]

Kauzo rules that roost. Watch that guy buy stuff. He's a pro and when he wants something he gets it. My pal sells a lot of stuff on ebay and most is purchased by Japanese collectors. He sold a first generation Campagnolo front der for over a grand. Yikes.

Curt

[jthurow]

Kauzo rules that roost.

I wonder if that dude's ever lost an auction. If he bids, you know the sky's the limit.

jimi

[Grant McLean]

I think Japs and asians in general have a packrat mentality that force us to collect useles, material objects.



This is boarding on being offensive.
Please tread carefully.

Maybe less sweeping generalizations would be appreciated by all.

g

[taz-t]

I wonder if that dude's ever lost an auction. If he bids, you know the sky's the limit.

jimi

I think Kauzo 'sets' the market price. I've tracked some of the auctions that he bids on and he doesn't win all/most of them. I think if someone beats him though, it means they overpaid.

Like Curt said, if he *wants* something, he gets it...

- taz

[dbrk]

Let me be entirely clear that my intention in posting this note about Japanese collectors was to admire and revel in their passion. It would be naive to think that the Japanese bike bit collectors aren't a presence on eBay and that their efforts don't reflect upon them as a kind of group. But I hope I am not mistaken in conveying anything but an approbation of the joy taken in these excellent items, there being nothing ethnic or nationalist about that. I found the comment using a disobliging term for these particular people of asian identity to be distasteful and hope my beginning this thread is not construed as anything but a positive reflection of this community of bicycle enthusiasts.

dbrk

[deechee]

This is boarding on being offensive.
Please tread carefully.

Maybe less sweeping generalizations would be appreciated by all.

g

FYI: Present day Japanese slang abbreviate many common words.

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6132672.stm
"The ideal, perhaps not practical in Mr Jenkin's case, but achievable with a bit of foresight, is to ask people how they would like to be referred to - who they are and how they define themselves, says Mr Agbetu."

I've asked numerous Japanese friends of mine, including my family and none of us are offended by the term "Jap". The few people I probably wouldn't use it with are some of the very old senior citizens in my community who are of Japanese origin but barely speak the language, and to be honest I doubt any of them are riding a bike, let alone able to surf the internet anywhere past yahoo. As for the sweeping generalizations, I re-worded it.

[sspielman]

If anybody could somehow misconstrue any of MY earlier comments into some kind of a slur, that is THEIR problem and not mine....

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just when I was thinking *I* had a problem with bikes. My family of Japanese origin, as well as numerous Japanese (born in Japan and Canada), Chinese(Candian Born Chinese, American Born Chinese, Born in China, Born in Hong Kong, Born in Malaysia), Philipino (born in the Phillipines) and Vietnamese (born in Canada) friends of mine have a packrat mentality that help us accumulate and collect tons and tons of useless, material posessions. Maybe it has something to do with this affliction.

But its also a timing thing I think. I know that myself, if I want something rare, I want it now. If that means I gotta outbid some other person at a price higher than I'd like, so be it. My time is valuable.

. . . He is of Japanese origin and therefore has a perfect right to use the term, IMHO. But Deechee, I don't think the "packrat" mentality knows any nationality. My parents are packrats and are certainly not Asian.

Personally, I think the condition relates to just about anybody who has the personal feeling that they have "gone without" and so never want to be put in that situation again. In this country I think the condition is often driven in older people by memories of the Great Depression when they never knew where their next meal or new winter coat was coming from. I have no proof for this hypothesis other than my parents accounts of their early childhoods where they saw scarcity all around. Taken to an extreme, the condition is definitely a mental illness. I'm sure we have all seen accounts in our local papers from time to time of old people who are forcibly removed from their stinking, filthy homes full of old mail, newspapers, God knows what else, and even (in one case I read about) hundreds of pounds of feces saved in paper bags--all piled up to the ceiling leaving nothing but small tunnels through which they navigate through the wretched refuse of their lives. when I cleaned out my parents garage few years ago I found bags and bags of wood scraps my dad has sawed off in his woodworking hobby days. My mom told me he always insisted that he might need them for something some day.

As for bike collectors, nothing surprises me any more. Several years ago as a result of a tip on this forum, I followed some eBay auctions for old (mostly Huret) derailleurs where the prices climbed to several thousand dollars. I never could figure out if these buyers really WERE serious collectors, or just a group of friends engaging in some sort of "in" joke . . .

BBD

[tulli]

To think the world has become so PC that someone (who is not even Asian) can be offended by a comment made by an Asian person about Asian people.

[Grant McLean]

To think the world has become so PC that someone (who is not even Asian) can be offended by a comment made by an Asian person about Asian people.

Are you speaking to me?

How are we to know the ethnic backgound of forum memebers if they don't mention
it in their original posts? Secondly, I wasn't offended, it just seemed
like a odd comment, out of context, as was the other thread:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=276661&postcount=16


g

[tulli]

.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think if you are going to use those terms it's best to include in the same post your basis for doing so. Otherwise, best to steer clear just as normal courtesy--nothing "PC" about it . . .

Are there perjorative terms for bumblebees? ;)

BBD

[atmo]

Are there perjorative terms for bumblebees? ;)

BBD
yeah a bunch of us use them privately atmo.
hey - bananas, bro. bananas.

[Kevan]

Are there perjorative terms for bumblebees? ;)

BBD

be called a WASP. Hey, I'm doing my best with my disability.

[dbrk]

Just an update 'cause it's fun to think that some fella' out there wants a pair of NOS Mafac 63...for a final price of $558 and 61 cents. Amazing.

dbrk

[slowgoing]

No so amazing. What's a NOS pair of campy deltas run?

$500 is also less than many spend on sushi and sake in a week or two. It's not a pretty sight to see how hard they work and then how hard they play in the bars to make up for it. Been there and done that with them a few too many times.

[baselthedog]

You have to admire their taste. I have always found it very curious that they tend to favor mostly French brands, but also Campagnolo...while largely passing by their domestic products. Even with modern products, I find it interesting that certain boutique European brands are well represented in Japan but are almost unknown here in the US- the world's largest cycling market. Examples of this would be Dugast tubulars and Denti bicycles...

A few years ago the NYTimes posted an article claiming that the world's best Italian restaurants were in Japan, not Italy! Indeed I had some pretty good Italian food when I lived for a semester in Kyoto (disclaimer: these meals were at modest Italian restaurants run by Japanese chefs/proprietors, some of whom had trained in Europe, not any fancy starred places). And many many good pastries, no not as good as Paris, but quite up there. At the risk of grossly over-generalizing, the history of Japanese artistic development (and by extension... appreciation?) has many examples of the Japanese importing styles/tastes/technologies/trends from other cultures and then improving upon these, giving these a different perspective, often in the process refining them to an extremely high level beyond the original , etc. Very often strangers/foreigners are better positioned to perceive/appreciate the finer nuances of things, because such subtle things tend to be easily subsumed by the more blunt and apparent elements of our daily lives. And "outsiders" often learn to do "insider" things really well because, well, outsiders have to learn such things from scratch; I know of more than one Asian immigrant who speaks (technically) better English than his fellow Americans. This cross-cultural exchange happens everywhere of course, not just in Japan, but the Japanese definitely have a knack of showing their appreciation for things. Most of the time their, uh, enthusiasm, is infective, for me anyway.

BTW if any of you are wondering where all vintage Eames fiberglass chairs are (they are not really in southern California), just take a night-time stroll around the Harajuku area of Tokyo and look into the hip hair salons, there are hundreds of them.

On the other hand eating spaghetti carbonara in Kyoto was never as satisfying as getting a bowl of the stuff at Pepe Rosso's in New York, this little hole-in-the-wall that used to be on MacDougal Street, with just 4 tables, 2 lean and wiry soccer-mad Italian cousins in the kitchen with one eye on the pot and their other eye permanently glued to a tiny TV in the corner that ALWAYS had a game blaring. Anyways, getting back to old French parts on their way to the land of the rising sun: I am curious how the "spirit" of the original lives on (or not, or in better form?) in its new appropriation.

[sailorboy]

Werd! I have seen those $500 delta brakes in the local bike shop near me in the area outside of Tokyo...and seen those Eames chairs all over the place as well. They are routinely in the thousands at some boutiques. Anybody got anything they want me to sell? I'll just take a 15% fee off the top.

Of course, after 18 months in the land where people pay more per year to rent thier parking space than the original price of their cars, the price of stuff isn't really shocking any more.