OT - What's going on in France

[wc1934]

Is it really the high fuel prices and high cost of living, or what?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6449407/Fresh-violence-Paris-riot-police-use-tear-gas-batons.html

[efixler]

It kind of looks like the right-wing parties are using gas taxes as an excuse to riot.

[Peter P.]

The origin of the riots (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/25/emmanuel-macron-rejects-parallels-french-yellow-vest-protests/) were people protesting a significant increase in gas taxes.

Gas costs roughly $6/gallon. The tax increase was claimed to hurt the working class, although I don't know how much the tax increase was, as well as whether the increased revenue would be earmarked for a particular fund or just general operations.

I'd like to have a deeper understanding of the causes, myself.

The meaning of the riots has morphed beyond just the tax increase.

I also think the violent rioting is just the typical anarchy that happens when large groups of unorganized people gather. It starts peaceful then...

[CunegoFan]

It kind of looks like the right-wing parties are using gas taxes as an excuse to riot.

Yes. Jean-Luc Melenchon is very right wing. Very.

[likebikes]

just business as usual.

[jet sanchez]

The tax on diesel fuel went up by a fair bit and it pissed off a lot of people.

Europe in general is trying to get off of diesel because it burns so dirty but a lot of industry depends on it, the yellow vest movement has just spread to Belgium and the Netherlands too.

A few years ago the pollution was so bad in Paris that cars were not allowed into the city for a week. Currently the city centre is going car-free for the first Sunday of every month.

[verticaldoug]

Is it really the high fuel prices and high cost of living, or what?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6449407/Fresh-violence-Paris-riot-police-use-tear-gas-batons.html

you should probably start from about a year ago when Macron significantly lowered the wealth tax on people with assets above 1,300,000euro. Since then, he has been battling the label of President of the Rich. (40 year old former investment banker, who'd have guessed)

Raising taxes 2.6cts/liter a year for the next 4 years is the plan. Its a regressive tax which was just a thumb in the eye of people already bitter about taxes becoming more regressive in general.

[Tony T]

Been going on for 3 weeks, and the first time I heard about it was yesterday in the NYTimes.

[rain dogs]

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

Taxes are basic economic disincentives for things we don't want people to buy so much.

Anthropogenic accelerated climate change is real, scientifically agreed upon and proven.

I don't see what the problem is, but people seem to be protesting against inevitability and reduced carbon impacts.

High gas prices lead to the complete and total transformation of the Netherlands from one of the highest car using countries in the 70's to one of the lowest today.

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

[Mzilliox]

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

Taxes are basic economic disincentives for things we don't want people to buy so much.

Anthropogenic accelerated climate change is real, scientifically agreed upon and proven.

I don't see what the problem is, but people seem to be protesting against inevitability and reduced carbon impacts.

High gas prices lead to the complete and total transformation of the Netherlands from one of the highest car using countries in the 70's to one of the lowest today.

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

:banana: yes, public transport is in place, whats the complaint? i get it, but they will be seen as a good example one day, and we will have to follow suit rather than having some blowhard trying to artificially hold gas prices down via gangsterism. the world needs to Wake the eff up to reality. we are a selfish bunch of fools with our cars and need to use fossil fuels as though we didn;t know the story any more.

[jlwdm]

France wants to ban the sale of gas and diesel cars by 2040. Paris plans to ban all gas and diesel cars by 2030.

Jeff

[rnhood]

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

I disagree. The only fair way is to ration it, though I don't favor that either. Anyway, rich Joe should be affected the same as poor Joe. I don't have so much of a problem with what Madrid did, and more of this might be a good thing. But as far as a gas tax is concerned, everyone needs to feel the pain, not just the ordinary Joe.

[Blue Jays]

Very easy for residents in urban corridors to say ”take the train or bus” and not stop to think those in rural areas may have to drive 100 miles to reach a store. Those same decent and hardworking people are producing the food the rest of the nation needs.
As far as France, all those torched cars just released lots of thick oily smoke into the air, specifically against Paris Accords guidance.

[CunegoFan]

The tax on diesel fuel went up by a fair bit and it pissed off a lot of people.

The tax is rather minor. A good part of the increase is due to changing oil prices. The tax is just a spark that set off a situation that has been simmering for a very long time. France is just like the U.S. and other developed Western nations; the economies of rural areas have been hollowed out by globalization, deindustrialization, and general neglect. The dynamic is different in France because rebellion is nearly a human right. It is ingrained in the culture. What's the point of being French if you cannot occasionally man the barricades and vent your frustration?

The protests enjoy broad support with the public. As they have grown, the usual provocateurs from the extremes of the left and the right combined with hooligans and criminals taking advantage have turned the protests violent.

Macron is the perfect bete noire for the situation. He is a rich elitist who talks down to the people, and he was only elected because of aversion to the alternative. Even much of the public who voted for him don't like him. People like Macron being in control are the reason parts of Le Pen's message have resonance, even among those who will not vote for her for fear of the consequences it might bring. It is the same thing that is seen throughout Western democracies, where the political aristocracy has failed the average citizen.

[rain dogs]

I disagree. The only fair way is to ration it, though I don't favor that either. Anyway, rich Joe should be affected the same as poor Joe. I don't have so much of a problem with what Madrid did, and more of this might be a good thing. But as far as a gas tax is concerned, everyone needs to feel the pain, not just the ordinary Joe.

We can start a conversation about rich people feeling the same pain as poor people and it'll be over before it begins. I also think that's the wrong way to look at it anyway.

Again, the Netherlands had rich and poor people. They still have rich and poor people. The fuel crisis of the 70's, was tackled there by a set of much more courageous and forward thinking people than in other parts of the world. That shift led to the establishment one of the largest and most developed bicycle infrastructures that exist in the world today. And their culture adapted. And poor people ride bicycles, and guess what rich people ride bicycles there too. With some of the highest % of daily trips done by bicycle (more than 50%). Lower car usage than nearly anywhere in Europe, from what was prior to that one of the highest.

None of that would have happened if they got stuck in the mud of 'share the pain' and 'the rich and poor need to be equal' when they are not, never have been and never will be.

They got thinking, doing and adapting.... three very simple, very underrated actions. And now, somewhat poetically, when rich people ride the same bikes as poor people they are much closer to be equal than prior.

France... well, I guess they protest rising fuel prices and a small minority decide setting things on fire will do something. To that I say: Welcome to our inevitable future

[daker13]

It sounds like Macron's pursuing classic neoliberal austerity strategy, with tax cuts on the wealthy to 'drive innovation' subsidized by broad gas taxes on everyone else. Seems wrong-headed to blame the riots on hostility to climate change policies, or even anger about the gas tax. I'd be skeptical of anything coming out of the Times, the Post, or other major US news sources on this one. The article I read in the Times this morning really did not make a lot of sense, in terms of explaining the cause for the riots. I'm waiting for better explanation of what's going there. Mainstream news sources really don't do a good job of reporting on and interpreting spontaneous social movements, whether they origin on the left or the right or some mixture of the two.

[wc1934]

It sounds like Macron's pursuing classic neoliberal austerity strategy, with tax cuts on the wealthy to 'drive innovation' subsidized by broad gas taxes on everyone else. Seems wrong-headed to blame the riots on hostility to climate change policies, or even anger about the gas tax. I'd be skeptical of anything coming out of the Times, the Post, or other major US news sources on this one. The article I read in the Times this morning really did not make a lot of sense, in terms of explaining the cause for the riots. I'm waiting for better explanation of what's going there. Mainstream news sources really don't do a good job of reporting on and interpreting spontaneous social movements, whether they origin on the left or the right or some mixture of the two.

Lots of thoughts and opinions from various sources. I've read a bunch and still cant decipher the truth - here is another take on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/02/france-is-deeply-fractured-gilets-jeunes-just-a-symptom

[Buzz]

You have to be a little careful when using the Netherlands as an example. The Dutch didn’t suddenly decide in the 1970s in reaction to a fuel crisis to adapt bicycles and bicycle infrastructure. It’s just wrong to ascribe a well thought out idealized govt and societal policy to where they are now. There as no thinking, doing and adapting as you write. Heavy bicycle use was present long before then as seen in this video from the 1950s. What Amsterdam had going for it is that there simply isn’t any room to widen street for vehicle traffic and the tram and trolley system didn’t access all those narrow city roads as well. I think the same for Utrecht.

When we lived in Rotterdam in 1981 I remember mostly cars and a truly excellent tram system. It’s a more spread out area now much of that due to the fact that the old narrow cityscape was destroyed during WW2 and rebuilt with more modern road layout, building setbacks, etc. Different physical locations result in different adaptations. For parts of The Netherlands’s the bicycle has always been and remains the easiest, most practical way of getting around. Rich or poor doesn’t matter. Nothing more to it than that.
Lots of rich and poor people riding bikes together in the video below decades before the energy crisis and the theory that the Dutch somehow became progressively enligjtened and tackled the energy crisis.
https://youtu.be/oQ4XQElmO_E




We can start a conversation about rich people feeling the same pain as poor people and it'll be over before it begins. I also think that's the wrong way to look at it anyway.

Again, the Netherlands had rich and poor people. They still have rich and poor people. The fuel crisis of the 70's, was tackled there by a set of much more courageous and forward thinking people than in other parts of the world. That shift led to the establishment one of the largest and most developed bicycle infrastructures that exist in the world today. And their culture adapted. And poor people ride bicycles, and guess what rich people ride bicycles there too. With some of the highest % of daily trips done by bicycle (more than 50%). Lower car usage than nearly anywhere in Europe, from what was prior to that one of the highest.

None of that would have happened if they got stuck in the mud of 'share the pain' and 'the rich and poor need to be equal' when they are not, never have been and never will be.

They got thinking, doing and adapting.... three very simple, very underrated actions. And now, somewhat poetically, when rich people ride the same bikes as poor people they are much closer to be equal than prior.

France... well, I guess they protest rising fuel prices and a small minority decide setting things on fire will do something. To that I say: Welcome to our inevitable future

[velotel]

Like all these kind of histories the reasons are complex. Started quite a few years ago with the european push to privatize and reduce expenditures, following the american model which is constantly being pushed/forced on the rest of the world. Naturally the privatizing bit profits the big corporations and the rich, the expenditure reductions hammer everyone else. Consequently for quite a few years there’s been a downward pressure on the general population, as in higher taxes, reduced services, reduced revenues.

Macron was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

Almost all families consist of two working parents. They have to in order to have enough to live on. Makes life difficult for all concerned.

The catalyst that kind of really started kicking the latest protests into action were taxes that particularly hit retired people, who were already squeezing money to get by. Then the Macron government starting hitting hard on cars and pushing to get the industry and people to switch to electric cars. Except the cars are expensive and even with government incentives, vast numbers of people can’t afford them. People aren’t all stupid and they’ve realized that electric cars are at least as polluting as petrol cars and probably more polluting with one small advantage for France, the pollution is moved to asia and elsewhere. The french are also rather happy with themselves because of the high percentage of electricity generated by their nuclear reactors even though they’re also conveniently ignoring the long range massive problems with nuclear energy. Also electric cars are really only sensible for those who live in towns and never drive far plus have convenient and safe parking where they can plug in their cars. The fact of the matter is that charging electric cars is a huge problem and in the cities safe parking is already a massive problem.

The increase in fuel taxes was the proverbial straw. Huge numbers of french (and people in other countries too) have had enough. They’re tired of always getting stuck with the reduced services in schools, medical aid, etc. while the rich keep getting richer and richer. So there’s a giant reservoir of anger welling to the surface that goes way beyond simply the taxes on fuel.

Like I said, it’s complex and goes back a lot of years. No idea how it’s going to work out. Doesn’t seem like the government or any government in fact, knows what to do.

Just to add something regarding fuel costs, as I recall the price at the pump includes over 50% in taxes, might be 55 or 56%. In other words the government has way more control over the cost of fuel at the pump than the cost of fuel in the oil tankers.

Regarding the comments about the Netherlands and bikes and all that, people seem to be forgetting that the country is super small and super flat and super condensed, which makes bikes super easy. Bikes are also an old history for them, exactly because of the country’s size, flatness, and compactness. But I can assure you than when they go on holiday, which they do as frequently as they can and with huge enthusiasm, they go by car, with bikes strapped on of course.

[rain dogs]

You have to be a little careful when using the Netherlands as an example. The Dutch didn’t suddenly decide in the 1970s in reaction to a fuel crisis to adapt bicycles and bicycle infrastructure.

I'm quite sure they did just that. Of course if you go backward you're going to find high bicycle usage in European cities - especially post WWII when bicycle usage was again near it's highest in Europe - it's when cities "automobilize" and become heavy car users that you normally see a political will to preserve that 'new, modern automobile culture.'

I can't embed the image I want so you'll have to go here:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord

there you can see data showing that bicycle trips dropped from 80% of all trips to 20% at the start of the 70's, with people even predicting that the bicycle would be abandoned altogether besides novel use.

To claim that the Dutch government hasn't decided to prioritize cycling and cycling infrastructure is incorrect. Because the bicycle was in fact all but abandoned by Dutch standards. Stop the Kindermoord ("Stop the Children Killing"), the fuel crisis, Car-free Sundays, Restricted road use, Urban re-design have all been intentional attempts to rebuild bicycle usage, and deincentivize car use. Look, I'm all for protest, as that's also at the heart of the Netherlands transformation.... just this "Diesel is expensive" "I want to drive my car" protest in France is what to me seems backwards. And yes, layers of an onion... and shades of grey etc., but at the heart of these French actions is civil action over the rising cost of fuel.

Today, in the Netherlands 60% of journeys to city centers are done by bicycle. Only 28% of daily commutes are done by car. Dutch own 1,7 bicycles for every resident *some 22 million bicycles for 18 million people. There are 480 cars for every 1000 people in the Netherlands (32nd in the world, with a very high GDP, and one of the lowest in Europe, especially amongst the richer countries)... the USA is second to San Marino btw with 910/1000 or all citizens... children, elderly and all.

The reason people use the Netherlands as an example is because they are one of the few first world examples we have of governments implemented what most people would describe as backwards policies or other typical conservative rhetoric like "retro-fetishism", "naive hippy idealism", "an affront on individual autonomy", "the war on the car", etc. etc.

Your citing of 1950's bicycle usage prior to the explosion of individual car usage up until the early 70's (post/war rebuilding and "modernizing") only furthers to prove the point of the unique and courageous government transportation policy that exists in the Netherlands and that have totally changed and reclaimed the urban landscape today.... not sure what data you have that could present it any other way.

[goonster]

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

France is different, and has always taxed fuel at higher rates than other countries. This goes back to at least the 60's, I think, and had a big effect on French car designs. Whatever the other differences, French cars were more frugal on fuel than German cars, and even top-of-the-line limousines, like the Citroen DS, were generally offered only with smaller displacement engines.

[Tony T]

Can't be that bad in France, CNN hasn't said much about it.

[texbike]

Like all these kind of histories the reasons are complex. Started quite a few years ago with the european push to privatize and reduce expenditures, following the american model which is constantly being pushed/forced on the rest of the world. Naturally the privatizing bit profits the big corporations and the rich, the expenditure reductions hammer everyone else. Consequently for quite a few years there’s been a downward pressure on the general population, as in higher taxes, reduced services, reduced revenues.

Macron was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

Almost all families consist of two working parents. They have to in order to have enough to live on. Makes life difficult for all concerned.

Huge numbers of french (and people in other countries too) have had enough. They’re tired of always getting stuck with the reduced services in schools, medical aid, etc. while the rich keep getting richer and richer. So there’s a giant reservoir of anger welling to the surface that goes way beyond simply the taxes on fuel.



Hmmm. Why does this sound so familiar? Perhaps we'll see yellow vests closer to home as well...

Texbike

[oldpotatoe]

Hmmm. Why does this sound so familiar? Perhaps we'll see yellow vests closer to home as well...

Texbike

Yup..
Macron(_____) was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron(_____) is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

[Climb01742]

I thought this was helpful backstory:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/world/europe/france-yellow-vest-protests.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

I think this is bubbling in every industrialized nation, to different degrees. Hard to find politicians who are tackling it seriously and honestly. Unless it is addressed, boom.

[goonster]

Was just thinking about how the responses were strikingly different when some folks rioted in '05, over issues not all that dissimilar, really. Instead of the current "what has made these people so angry?" soul searching and hand-wringing, the first guy to call for "pressure washing the criminals out of the suburbs" became the next President.

[Davist]

Was just thinking about how the responses were strikingly different when some folks rioted in '05, over issues not all that dissimilar, really. Instead of the current "what has made these people so angry?" soul searching and hand-wringing, the first guy to call for "pressure washing the criminals out of the suburbs" became the next President.

Couldn't be because in '05 they were mostly of North African descent, could it? France has a much higher percentage of public employment than even China if I recall correctly, the famous 35 hour work week, etc, folks not in on that are stretched very thin, and the cadre's (middle management types) aren't getting out of the way due to decades of low productivity...

Meanwhile here in the US we have more job openings than job seekers, I can't find enough people, though 49-51% of the people ignore this.

[verticaldoug]

Couldn't be because in '05 they were mostly of North African descent, could it? France has a much higher percentage of public employment than even China if I recall correctly, the famous 35 hour work week, etc, folks not in on that are stretched very thin, and the cadre's (middle management types) aren't getting out of the way due to decades of low productivity...

Meanwhile here in the US we have more job openings than job seekers, I can't find enough people, though 49-51% of the people ignore this.

The statistic is something like 6.7 million job openings for 6.4 million workers. People talk about the skills mismatch etc. But given the disparity of openings to seekers (this has never occurred before in US) , wages should be accelerating higher but this is not happening. They are creeping higher at best.

Corporate culture in the US has shifted from rewarding employees to paying an ever larger share of the pie to capital and management. (These points are pretty much a given now)

In some aspect, it is like college football, where Athletic directors and head coaches pay increases, but players must remain scholarship only.

[Davist]

The statistic is something like 6.7 million job openings for 6.4 million workers. People talk about the skills mismatch etc. But given the disparity of openings to seekers (this has never occurred before in US) , wages should be accelerating higher but this is not happening. They are creeping higher at best.

Corporate culture in the US has shifted from rewarding employees to paying an ever larger share of the pie to capital and management. (These points are pretty much a given now)

In some aspect, it is like college football, where Athletic directors and head coaches pay increases, but players must remain scholarship only.

Buried the lead there, eh?

[daker13]

Thanks Velotel. Your write-up was more enlightening than anything I read in the Post or the Times in the last few days.

[verticaldoug]

Buried the lead there, eh?

Not really, the 2005 riots being treated differently because of the demographic of poor suburbs being primarily algerian/moroccan is a statement of fact.

You are now seeing the traditionally dominant group becoming marginalised.

[Davist]

ah, thanks for clarification, Vertical Doug..

[pbarry]

Pretty good Cliff Notes outline on the crisis.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/world/europe/france-economy-protests.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

These 5 Numbers Explain Why the French Are in the Streets

By Liz Alderman
Dec. 4, 2018

215
PARIS — President Emmanuel Macron of France is facing the toughest crisis of his leadership after three weeks of violent protests across the country. “Yellow Vest” demonstrators have demanded that the government give financial relief to large parts of the population that are struggling to make ends meet.

Prime Minister Edouard Philippe sought to calm the furor on Tuesday by suspending a planned fuel tax increase for six months, reversing a policy that had set off the revolt.

But it’s not apparent that this single concession can clear the streets.

The Yellow Vest movement — whose followers wear or display high-visibility vests used in emergencies — has morphed into a collective outcry over deeper problems that have plagued France for years: declining living standards and eroding purchasing power. Both of which have worsened in the aftermath of Europe’s long-running financial crisis.


Here are some numbers that explain why France has erupted.

€1,700: Median monthly income in France

France, like other Western countries, has seen a deep gap grow between its richest and poorest citizens. The top 20 percent of the population earns nearly five times as much as the bottom 20 percent.

France’s richest 1 percent represent over 20 percent of the economy’s wealth. Yet the median monthly disposable income is about 1,700 euros, or $1,930, meaning that half of French workers are paid less than that.

Many of the Yellow Vest demonstrators are protesting how difficult it is to pay rent, feed their families and simply scrape by as living costs — most notably fuel prices — keep rising while their household incomes barely budge.

It wasn’t always this way.

Living standards and wages rose in France after World War II during a 30-year growth stretch known as “Les Trente Glorieuses.” Pay gains for low- and middle-income earners continued through the early 1980s, thanks to labor union collective bargaining agreements.

But those dynamics unraveled as successive left-leaning French governments sought to improve competitiveness in part by compressing wage gains, according to the French economist Thomas Piketty. Average incomes for low- and middle-income earners stagnated, growing by around 1 percent a year or less.


The rich got richer, as top earners saw income gains of around 3 percent a year. Increasingly generous executive pay for very high earners has helped tip the scale.

French workers are still better off than those in Italy, where real wage growth has been negative since 2016. Real wages there fell 1.1 percent between the fourth quarters of 2016 and 2017, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

But while real hourly wages are rising in France, that growth has come slowly, even more so since the end of the eurozone debt crisis in 2012.

1.8 percent: Economic growth

France is the third biggest economy in Europe after Britain and Germany, and the world’s sixth largest before adjusting for inflation. Visitors to Paris can come away with the impression that the glitz of the French capital means the rest of the nation is just as well off.

But French economic growth was stagnant for nearly a decade during Europe’s long-running debt crisis and had only recently begun to improve.

The quality of the recovery has been uneven. Large numbers of permanent jobs were wiped out, especially in rural and former industrial areas. And many of the new jobs being created are precarious temporary contracts.

Growth is key to improving working conditions for those who have been protesting. But while a nascent economic recovery before Mr. Macron took office has helped generate jobs, growth has cooled to a 1.8 percent annual pace, in tandem with a slowdown in the rest of the eurozone.

Above 9 percent: Unemployment

The growth slowdown makes it harder to resolve another French problem: the large numbers of people out of work.

Unemployment in France has been stuck between 9 percent and 11 percent since 2009, when the debt crisis hit Europe. Joblessness has drifted back down to 9.1 percent today from 10.1 percent when Mr. Macron was elected. But it is still more than double the level in Germany.

Mr. Macron promised to lower unemployment to 7 percent by the next presidential election in 2022, and has acknowledged that a failure to do so could fan the flames of populism.

But to achieve that, the economy would have to grow by at least 1.7 percent in each of the next four years, which is by no means certain, according to the French Economic Observatory, an independent research group.

Mr. Macron has tried to re-energize the French economy.

This year, he demanded an aggressive overhaul of the nation’s rigid labor code to help employers set the rules on hiring and firing, and bypass longstanding restraints that discourage employers from hiring new workers. The provisions also limit unions’ ability to delay change, by allowing individual agreements to be negotiated at the company or industry level between bosses and workers.

Those reforms have helped draw companies like Facebook and Google to France. But they could take years to show results for average workers. And the reforms have angered workers who see a plot to strip them of hard-won labor rights in favor of big business.


€3.2 billion: Tax cut for the rich

As part of his plan to stimulate the economy, Mr. Macron cut taxes for France’s wealthiest taxpayers during his first year in office, including by creating a flat tax for capital income.

But the centerpiece of the tax package, and the one that has drawn the most ire from protesters, did away with a wealth tax that applied to many assets of France’s richest households, replacing it with one that applied only to their real estate holdings.

That lowered by €3.2 billion, or $3.6 billion, the amount of revenue the state received this year.

There has been little evidence of a stimulus effect. Instead, Mr. Macron has earned a reputation for favoring the rich — one of the biggest sources of anger among the Yellow Vest protesters.

While high earners have enjoyed tax breaks under Mr. Macron’s fiscal plan, purchasing power fell last year for the bottom 5 percent of households. The majority in the middle, about 70 percent, saw no gain or pain either way, according to the French Economic Observatory.

Even before the Yellow Vests took to the streets, Mr. Macron realized that support was withering, and his government tried to pivot toward those left behind in the previous round of tax cuts.

His 2019 budget, unveiled in October, will grant breaks next year worth €6 billion for middle- and low-income earners. It also includes an €18.8 billion reduction in payroll and other business taxes to encourage hiring and investment.

€715 billion: The social safety net

While polls show that the Yellow Vests have the backing of three-quarters of the population, questions have swirled about how much pain the protesters are really experiencing — or how much of the outpouring can be chalked up to a centuries-old culture of demonstrating against change.

[BdaGhisallo]

Another good article on what's going on:

https://ombreolivier.liberty.me/the-betrayal-of-macron/

[verticaldoug]

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

Taxes are basic economic disincentives for things we don't want people to buy so much.

Anthropogenic accelerated climate change is real, scientifically agreed upon and proven.

I don't see what the problem is, but people seem to be protesting against inevitability and reduced carbon impacts.

High gas prices lead to the complete and total transformation of the Netherlands from one of the highest car using countries in the 70's to one of the lowest today.

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

Well if you saw the numbers overnight about carbon emissions accelerating globally again (increased in 2017 and forecast of a larger increase in 2018- I venture we will exceed UN worst case emissions forecasts.).

I think the problem is much larger than poor communication.

Since it doesn't look like the world wants to share a common sacrifice, you need plan B. How do you get rid of 7 billion people? (I think if you run the numbers for carbon emissions, US, Canada, Japan combined max out the global quota. ) That's the size of the problem you are looking at. The irony here is at some point we will emit more carbon trying to cool ourselves in the summer than warm ourselves in the winter. Talk about a vicious cycle.

Without the US, there is no possibility of a global solution.

[BdaGhisallo]

Well if you saw the numbers overnight about carbon emissions accelerating globally again (increased in 2017 and forecast of a larger increase in 2018- I venture we will exceed UN worst case emissions forecasts.).

I think the problem is much larger than poor communication.

Since it doesn't look like the world wants to share a common sacrifice, you need plan B. How do you get rid of 7 billion people? (I think if you run the numbers for carbon emissions, US, Canada, Japan combined max out the global quota. ) That's the size of the problem you are looking at. The irony here is at some point we will emit more carbon trying to cool ourselves in the summer than warm ourselves in the winter. Talk about a vicious cycle.

Without the US, there is no possibility of a global solution.

So far, the US is one of the few doing its part, with its CO2 emissions on the decline over the last forty years. On a per capita basis, US emissions peaked at 22.51 metric tons/cap back in 1973 and have been trending down to the present level of 16.49 mt/cap in 2014.

It always makes me smile when many of the nations in Western Europe that hector the US over its environmental record and its departure from the Paris Accord, aren't actually doing as well as the US is in getting their emissions under control and actually seeing their emissions on the rise, in the case of Germany.

[rain dogs]

Germany's CO2 emissions per capita are 8.889 and dropping as of 2014, nearly half that of the US 16.491 based on world bank data. And the US is rising again since 2012. Canada is an embarrassment at 15.117 per capita. Spain is 5.03 and dropping. The EU avg. is 6.4 and dropping.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?locations=US

[verticaldoug]

So far, the US is one of the few doing its part, with its CO2 emissions on the decline over the last forty years. On a per capita basis, US emissions peaked at 22.51 metric tons/cap back in 1973 and have been trending down to the present level of 16.49 mt/cap in 2014.

It always makes me smile when many of the nations in Western Europe that hector the US over its environmental record and its departure from the Paris Accord, aren't actually doing as well as the US is in getting their emissions under control and actually seeing their emissions on the rise, in the case of Germany.

That's like a 300lb guy who lost 10 lbs asking the 150lb guy who lost 5lbs why he wont keep dieting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33133712

[jemoryl]

That's like a 300lb guy who lost 10 lbs asking the 150lb guy who lost 5lbs why he wont keep dieting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33133712

Yup, the waste and consumption in the US is staggering. I can't imagine there are many other countries where people go out into a parking lot to sit in a giant SUV with the engine running (to get A/C) so they can eat their lunch (as seen in my suburban office park). Besides, by outsourcing our manufacturing to places like China, we have essentially offshored the associated energy consumption and pollution.

[MikeD]

Germany's CO2 emissions per capita are 8.889 and dropping as of 2014, nearly half that of the US 16.491 based on world bank data. And the US is rising again since 2012. Canada is an embarrassment at 15.117 per capita. Spain is 5.03 and dropping. The EU avg. is 6.4 and dropping.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?locations=US



Yeah well Germany shut down their nuclear plants and put up coal ones, so this data wrt Germany is no longer valid.

[bikinchris]

Once again, I say that I am not counting CO2 emissions, I see an economy and lifestyle that is totally unsustainable. This cannot continue if we have ANY thought for future generations. We should have been working toward a more sustainable lifestyle two generations ago.
Yes, it will hurt. Just like the switch to automobile use destroyed parts of the economy around the turn of the century. But the jobs of setting up and sustaining renewable energy will make up for that. Designing our cities for better public transportation will also keep people more healthy. Win, win, win, except for oil companies, who will fight this tooth and nail to the death.

[MikeD]

Once again, I say that I am not counting CO2 emissions, I see an economy and lifestyle that is totally unsustainable. This cannot continue if we have ANY thought for future generations. We should have been working toward a more sustainable lifestyle two generations ago.

Yes, it will hurt. Just like the switch to automobile use destroyed parts of the economy around the turn of the century. But the jobs of setting up and sustaining renewable energy will make up for that. Designing our cities for better public transportation will also keep people more healthy. Win, win, win, except for oil companies, who will fight this tooth and nail to the death.



The problem is the jobs are not where the people live, hence commuting to work. I don't see that changing in a free society.

[Mzilliox]

Yup, the waste and consumption in the US is staggering. I can't imagine there are many other countries where people go out into a parking lot to sit in a giant SUV with the engine running (to get A/C) so they can eat their lunch (as seen in my suburban office park). Besides, by outsourcing our manufacturing to places like China, we have essentially offshored the associated energy consumption and pollution.

Not at all on topic, just comment on your comment.
I get so weirded out how many people sit in their cars to eat, with the car running, and a phone in their hands. I have noticed this when i go fishing, there is almost always someone parked in the parking lot eating and using their phone. they could get out of the car, take 20 steps and sit on a park bench overlooking the river. but they dont, they face the buildings, crank the ac or heater, phone, and feed.

we are a bunch of damn weirdos with brains that are sometimes useful and more often underused

[Climb01742]

Politics has always been a screwed up way to govern and grapple with problems. But it may be worse today because in a connected world, the problems have gotten exponentially more complex while politics seems ever more incapable of anything but simplistic, bumper-sticker 'answers'.

I'm curious. Has any non-aligned (if there is such a thing) economist or social theorist or academic of some ilk put forth an idea for how we solve the inequities of capitalism while keeping some of its benefits, adding some elements of a social safety net, while not screwing the planet and its climate, while not sinking into unmanageable debt...

Is there an answer without political cant? It's a serious question. It's such a complex web of issues. Has someone found solutions without grinding axes?

[verticaldoug]

Yeah well Germany shut down their nuclear plants and put up coal ones, so this data wrt Germany is no longer valid.

Germany did vote to take all German Nukes offline after Fukushima. They took half offline pre-2014 and the rest slated for 2022.

Sharp increase in renewables have offset alot of the increase coal/oil/gas consumption. I think the 'data' is correct, and they have not yet taken any of the remaining nukes off line.

Nice attempt to throw a wrench. German per capita has increased by a little, which is mostly attributed to transportation.

Biggest gross contributors have been China, USA and India. On a per capita however, China and India still small.

[MattTuck]

Germany did vote to take all German Nukes offline after Fukushima. They took half offline pre-2014 and the rest slated for 2022.

Sharp increase in renewables have offset alot of the increase coal/oil/gas consumption. I think the 'data' is correct, and they have not yet taken any of the remaining nukes off line.

Nice attempt to throw a wrench. German per capita has increased by a little, which is mostly attributed to transportation.

Biggest gross contributors have been China, USA and India. On a per capita however, China and India still small.

From everything I've read, one cannot meaningfully reduce CO2 emissions for baseload power without a big contribution from nuclear. That said, most nuclear plants in the world are based on 50 year old technology and designs.

New designs, especially as it relates to smaller reactors are both much safer and also cheaper than previous generations.

Renewables are great, but if you're serious about CO2 emissions, you need to have a second look at nuclear as a part of the energy mix.

[MikeD]

From everything I've read, one cannot meaningfully reduce CO2 emissions for baseload power without a big contribution from nuclear. That said, most nuclear plants in the world are based on 50 year old technology and designs.



New designs, especially as it relates to smaller reactors are both much safer and also cheaper than previous generations.



Renewables are great, but if you're serious about CO2 emissions, you need to have a second look at nuclear as a part of the energy mix.



Let's face it, we are going to have to live with CO2 generated global warming. CO2 emissions were the highest they've been this past year in spite of all attempts at reduction!

[Ozz]

...an idea for how we solve the inequities of capitalism while keeping some of its benefits, adding some elements of a social safety net, while not screwing the planet and its climate, while not sinking into unmanageable debt...

Is there an answer without political cant? It's a serious question. It's such a complex web of issues. Has someone found solutions without grinding axes?

the problem is a concentration of wealth into the hands of the few....the obvious answer is estate taxes to redistribute the wealth...how it is redistributed is another question. I'd be a proponent of reducing national debt and funding programs that create jobs and education, rather than just handouts.

However, since the rich make the "rules"....nothing is likely to change. And, money will be moved globally to avoid the local taxes...

Interesting and sad problem....

[froze]

Last I checked, this was before the gasoline tax was hiked, that France has the second highest taxes per citizen than any country in the Eurozone. Now with the gasoline tax hike I'm not sure if they're number 1 now or still number 2. High taxes have a way of pissing off people, and most of France's taxes is due to social welfare programs; there is a cost to all this socialized crap that goes on due to liberal policies, something people in the US simply do not and will not understand...but someday will when your income is swallowed by taxes.

[jemoryl]

From everything I've read, one cannot meaningfully reduce CO2 emissions for baseload power without a big contribution from nuclear. That said, most nuclear plants in the world are based on 50 year old technology and designs.

New designs, especially as it relates to smaller reactors are both much safer and also cheaper than previous generations.

Renewables are great, but if you're serious about CO2 emissions, you need to have a second look at nuclear as a part of the energy mix.

Yeah, especially since the problem of nuclear waste disposal has been solved.

[jemoryl]

......However, since the rich make the "rules"....nothing is likely to change. And, money will be moved globally to avoid the local taxes...

Interesting and sad problem....

At least for the time being. Isn't this part of the anti-Macron wave in France?

[Ozz]

At least for the time being. Isn't this part of the anti-Macron wave in France?

1789 all over again?

Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised,
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!...

Time to storm the Bastille?

[MikeD]

Yeah, especially since the problem of nuclear waste disposal has been solved.



That and the high consequences of an accident and huge cost of the plants pretty much dooms fission nuclear power in the US.

[Black Dog]

At least for the time being. Isn't this part of the anti-Macron wave in France?

Yes, the days of feudalism and robber barons are coming back or are back and we have yet to realize it. The vast majority of wealth can only be concentrated with the vast minority of people before things start to get "interesting".

[rain dogs]

Yeah well Germany shut down their nuclear plants and put up coal ones, so this data wrt Germany is no longer valid.

Changes in policy don't invalidate data that has already been collected and verified. As well, Germany was shutting down nuclear in 2011, three years prior to the last data point shown in the link.

If you have more up-to-date CO2 per capita numbers by all means share them please.

Additionally, German use of natural gas, hard coal, lignite and nuclear are all being reduced and have been reducing year after year since 2013, one year prior to those 2014 numbers. This shows info up to and including 2017

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-coal-exit-commission

In France, it appears that Macron has cancelled the apparent gas tax, so the protest has had results I guess

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/france-wealth-tax-changes-gilets-jaunes-protests-president-macron

It's always important to remember that change doesn't happen overnight and there will be ups and downs along the way, but portraying Germany as an example of failure, hypocrisy or unwilling to advance their policy to meet climate targets is unfair. It's not going to be lions hugging lambs overnight, but rest assured the German government, as do the vast majority of the members in the EU, remain committed and are quite rightfully seen as leaders in not just the conversation, but more importantly in actions.

Lastly, I think every one of us can take a little pride each time we throw a leg over a bicycle, as little or much as we can, in terms of doing one ride's more part in the whole equation, not just for our own health but our community :beer:

[redir]

Well if ya give tax breaks to the rich you gotta get that money back somehow. Here in the US they will accomplish that by taking your SS away. People catch on eventually.

Ahh 1789 what a year.

[Black Dog]

Well if ya give tax breaks to the rich you gotta get that money back somehow. Here in the US they will accomplish that by taking your SS away. People catch on eventually.

Ahh 1789 what a year.

I guess that in France people are more aware of this and in the US there is a lot of money from the likes of the Koch brothers that works hard to convince people that they are better off when rich people and corporations pay no taxes and most people get no services or to at least distract them from what is going on.

[MikeD]

I guess that in France people are more aware of this and in the US there is a lot of money from the likes of the Koch brothers that works hard to convince people that they are better off when rich people and corporations pay no taxes and most people get no services or to at least distract them from what is going on.


Well, who do you think provides the jobs? Tax corporations more than the rest of the world does, and they'll move out of the country!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jemoryl]

1789 all over again?

Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised,
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!...

Time to storm the Bastille?

The fuel tax appears to be the last straw: here is an interesting thread listing the changes the GJ's are wishing for:
https://twitter.com/dovesandletters/status/1070205328753655808

I applaud the French for being so attuned to the problems of neoliberalism. A good question is: why did Macron get elected in the first place?

[Mzilliox]

Well, who do you think provides the jobs? Tax corporations more than the rest of the world does, and they'll move out of the country!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

who provides the jobs? cmon with tat crap. we provide jobs for ourselves. entrepreneurs provide jobs, necessity provides jobs. Multiglobalist corporations provide something like a job, something like slavery, and something like a good waste of time should you have nothing better to guide your life. But sure, lets go with the well they provide jobs, so lets let corporations do whatever the hell they want.

Jobs, there's always jobs, why are jobs the catch phrase, one can always garden, farm and subsist, this is work, this is job, this is life.

Jobs, im so damn tired of jobs as the end all for humanity. Is this the best we got? Jobs? seriously? not happiness, health, nature, clean water, just jobs.

no wonder the world is so weird.

[MikeD]

who provides the jobs? cmon with tat crap. we provide jobs for ourselves. entrepreneurs provide jobs, necessity provides jobs. Multiglobalist corporations provide something like a job, something like slavery, and something like a good waste of time should you have nothing better to guide your life. But sure, lets go with the well they provide jobs, so lets let corporations do whatever the hell they want.



Jobs, there's always jobs, why are jobs the catch phrase, one can always garden, farm and subsist, this is work, this is job, this is life.



Jobs, im so damn tired of jobs as the end all for humanity. Is this the best we got? Jobs? seriously? not happiness, health, nature, clean water, just jobs.



no wonder the world is so weird.



Yeah whatever...


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[93KgBike]

General Motors just got a huge tax break. And they're using it to build factories in Mexico and China.

[Mzilliox]

General Motors just got a huge tax break. And they're using it to build factories in Mexico and China.

and why would they not? capitalism is not meant to serve humans, its meant to make profit. if we want a system that serves us, we need to change the system. one day there will be robots, and capitalism will favor them massively, as they dont complain or require pay. then what? what good are jobs then?

Seriously, these are the problems leaders need to address to keep citizen happy.

the economy doesn't need help, we do.

[cloudguy]

Seriously, these are the problems leaders need to address to keep citizen happy.

the economy doesn't need help, we do.

Not sure if I'm paraphrasing correctly, but my economist friend once told me that Keynes thought people in the future would work less and enjoy more leisure time, what with advances in efficiency, technology etc. So far that obviously hasn't panned out, but perhaps the robot revolution will force this leisure time upon us...more time for riding bikes and playing golf, at least until the robots kill us all.

[MikeD]

General Motors just got a huge tax break. And they're using it to build factories in Mexico and China.


Automotive tariffs are coming!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jaybee]

nm

[MikeD]

Changes in policy don't invalidate data that has already been collected and verified. As well, Germany was shutting down nuclear in 2011, three years prior to the last data point shown in the link.

If you have more up-to-date CO2 per capita numbers by all means share them please.

Additionally, German use of natural gas, hard coal, lignite and nuclear are all being reduced and have been reducing year after year since 2013, one year prior to those 2014 numbers. This shows info up to and including 2017

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-coal-exit-commission

In France, it appears that Macron has cancelled the apparent gas tax, so the protest has had results I guess

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/france-wealth-tax-changes-gilets-jaunes-protests-president-macron

It's always important to remember that change doesn't happen overnight and there will be ups and downs along the way, but portraying Germany as an example of failure, hypocrisy or unwilling to advance their policy to meet climate targets is unfair. It's not going to be lions hugging lambs overnight, but rest assured the German government, as do the vast majority of the members in the EU, remain committed and are quite rightfully seen as leaders in not just the conversation, but more importantly in actions.

Lastly, I think every one of us can take a little pride each time we throw a leg over a bicycle, as little or much as we can, in terms of doing one ride's more part in the whole equation, not just for our own health but our community :beer:



Another perspective on Germany https://www.google.com/amp/s/foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/13/germany-is-a-coal-burning-gas-guzzling-climate-change-hypocrite/amp/

In 2017, 40.3% of Germany's electricity was generated from coal!

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[froze]

That and the high consequences of an accident and huge cost of the plants pretty much dooms fission nuclear power in the US.

Nuclear accidents are very rare, in fact coal mining is a lot more dangerous, but when you add up all the non nuclear energy accidents from 1907 to 2007 the total is 390,000 for the coal plants, and 324,000 for all the oil plants per year; and what's really crazy is about 1 person every 18 hours is killed due to ONE single coal plant; not to mention $41 billion dollars in property damage which is total for all plants. Those deaths don't even take into consideration deaths caused by burning fossil fuels which are estimated to be around 2.1 million PER YEAR!

While nuclear energy related deaths since 1957 till 2011 comes to just 44 which works out to 1 death per 3 years and that includes mining and transportation! Add to that 44 is another 16 for cancer related attributed to Chernobyl...but that is a Russian total and usually their estimates for that sort of stuff is extremely low, so I would guess the total is probably closer to a couple thousand and I think that may be on the low side!

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_accidents

People need to stop protesting nuclear power plants, it's silly and full of ignorance of the real facts, and instead they should be trying their best to shut down coal and oil and replace those with nuke plants and embrace nuclear energy. Of course you will get the coal industry to cry foul, but something needs to be done about the pollution and the CO2. The planet's biggest problem is China, that country is the biggest user of fossil fuel currently, and it's going to be difficult for China to make the switch but they are doing it though, they are currently ranked number 4 in the world for nuclear power capacity and are trying to increase it dramatically over the next 20 years to become the number 1 country and getting most their power from it but even then they will still be using coal and oil. Problem with China however is that their quality control has always been an issue, and I'm not real sure how well they will manage nuclear power to prevent a serious problem.

[MikeD]

Nuclear accidents are very rare, in fact coal mining is a lot more dangerous, but when you add up all the non nuclear energy accidents from 1907 to 2007 the total is 390,000 for the coal plants, and 324,000 for all the oil plants per year; and what's really crazy is about 1 person every 18 hours is killed due to ONE single coal plant; not to mention $41 billion dollars in property damage which is total for all plants. Those deaths don't even take into consideration deaths caused by burning fossil fuels which are estimated to be around 2.1 million PER YEAR!



While nuclear energy related deaths since 1957 till 2011 comes to just 44 which works out to 1 death per 3 years and that includes mining and transportation! Add to that 44 is another 16 for cancer related attributed to Chernobyl...but that is a Russian total and usually their estimates for that sort of stuff is extremely low, so I would guess the total is probably closer to a couple thousand and I think that may be on the low side!



https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_accidents



People need to stop protesting nuclear power plants, it's silly and full of ignorance of the real facts, and instead they should be trying their best to shut down coal and oil and replace those with nuke plants and embrace nuclear energy. Of course you will get the coal industry to cry foul, but something needs to be done about the pollution and the CO2. The planet's biggest problem is China, that country is the biggest user of fossil fuel currently, and it's going to be difficult for China to make the switch but they are doing it though, they are currently ranked number 4 in the world for nuclear power capacity and are trying to increase it dramatically over the next 20 years to become the number 1 country and getting most their power from it but even then they will still be using coal and oil. Problem with China however is that their quality control has always been an issue, and I'm not real sure how well they will manage nuclear power to prevent a serious problem.



Nuclear power in the US doesn't have much of a future. If the exorbitantly high cost and long timescale to construct the plants weren't enough, we lack the political will to dispose of the waste. The Yucca Mountain project, which was to be a repository for the high level spent fuel, dragged on for many years and was finally killed by NIMBYism. President Carter, a nuclear engineer ironically, stopped fuel reprocessing because of proliferation concerns, so the dangerous spent fuel sit in cooling ponds at power plant sites, instead of being more safely put in a repository or reprocessed. Things were looking up for a time, then the Fukashima accident occurred. Frankly, I'll be glad when they close Diablo Canyon, situated on the coast in seismically active California. Maybe someday fusion power will become a reality, but it always seems to be 40 years away. In the mean time in California, there's solar, wind, hydro, and natural gas plants. I suspect that's the way it's going to be for the future, with more solar and wind power.

[Davist]

In the mean time in California, there's solar, wind, hydro, and natural gas plants. I suspect that's the way it's going to be for the future, with more solar and wind power.

Of course the net result of increased renewables in CA has been +30% in PGE rates in the last 5 years and more "peaking" plants (read low efficiency) on line including coal fired, look at the "duck curve"... but agreed that it's the future, but not very bright with current implementation. If we'd use natural gas more as you mention perhaps (and get serious about storage, including the ONLY grid scale solution currently available, pumped hydro). Chemical batteries are both a toxic nightmare and there's not nearly enough (~1700 tons global production/year of lithium) for anything near what's needed..

This, of course, has nothing to do with yellow vest protesters in France, although EDF is the envy of the EU power generators with about 2/3 of the power fleet being nuclear and exporting more power than any other utility in the EU.

[froze]

Nuclear power in the US doesn't have much of a future. If the exorbitantly high cost and long timescale to construct the plants weren't enough, we lack the political will to dispose of the waste. The Yucca Mountain project, which was to be a repository for the high level spent fuel, dragged on for many years and was finally killed by NIMBYism. President Carter, a nuclear engineer ironically, stopped fuel reprocessing because of proliferation concerns, so the dangerous spent fuel sit in cooling ponds at power plant sites, instead of being more safely put in a repository or reprocessed. Things were looking up for a time, then the Fukashima accident occurred. Frankly, I'll be glad when they close Diablo Canyon, situated on the coast in seismically active California. Maybe someday fusion power will become a reality, but it always seems to be 40 years away. I read something about a thorium reactor that Bill Gates is putting money into. Then read that it produces U233, which is a highly radioactive isotope. In the mean time in California, there's solar, wind, hydro, and natural gas plants. I suspect that's the way it's going to be for the future, with more solar and wind power.

Actually renewable wind, solar, and hydro makes the cost of energy far higher than nuke power, the reason it doesn't seem like those renewables aren't so expensive is because the cost to construct the systems is heavily subsidized by the government, which in Spain's case nearly bankrupt that country. I seriously doubt the US can meet its needs using just natural renewable sources, maybe up to 25% but that will be it. And don't forget that the Tree Huggers wants the US to build solar panels and wind mills, but when we do build them the Tree Huggers complain that the windmills were killing birds so either production is halted or the windmills turned off; the Tree Huggers liked the idea of solar panels, so we built those and they cried about how they were upsetting the habitats of varies creatures so those were stopped. Here in America it's damn if we don't and damn if we do.

[cloudguy]

the Tree Huggers complain

"Tree Huggers"? Really!? C'mon Dude, get with the 21st century already.

[froze]

"Tree Huggers"? Really!? C'mon Dude, get with the 21st century already.

Well what do you call them? oh, that's right something a bit more politically correct, like environmental activist, or perhaps green, or maybe...oh and this one sounds particularly nice...nature lover, yes, that one is really politically correct...no thanks, I had a friend who had to deal personally with these type, I'm staying with tree hugger.

[weisan]

The issue is not with energy sources but the way we consume. It has been and will always be.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/The_Lorax.jpg/220px-The_Lorax.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

General Motors just got a huge tax break. And they're using it to build factories in Mexico and China.

As much as the don would like to, punishing one company is illegal.

[goonster]

in Spain's case nearly bankrupt that country.

No. What nearly bankrupted Spain was a classic housing bubble with a charming, specifically Iberian characteristic: all those airports.

I seriously doubt the US can meet its needs using just natural renewable sources, maybe up to 25% but that will be it.

It's crazy, I know, but maybe the needs side of the equation should be part of the conversation, and not just assumed to be fixed and inviolable . . .

[froze]

No. What nearly bankrupted Spain was a classic housing bubble with a charming, specifically Iberian characteristic: all those airports.



It's crazy, I know, but maybe the needs side of the equation should be part of the conversation, and not just assumed to be fixed and inviolable . . .

But the demands of a nation that has the population of the US (and include China), and with a population who likes their gadgets and wants more electric cars and other battery powered mobile units that will increase the demand on our electrical grid I doubt seriously with today's technology we can do more then maybe 25% with renewables. Obviously 25% is a guess it could be as much as 30% on mostly sunny days across much of the US, but during the winter months it could drop to 15%. So something has to fill that gap, and at this time nuke energy is the only thing going.

As far as the uranium waste there is a way now to use that called a Transatomic molten salt reactor that can generate electricity from once spent fuel rods; a commercial reactor of this is suppose to go on line in 2030; it's already been proven to work so all that uranium waste we put into underground vaults can be brought up and used in these reactors.

[Ozz]

...It's crazy, I know, but maybe the needs side of the equation should be part of the conversation, . . .

What do you mean?

;)

[oldpotatoe]

Actually renewable wind, solar, and hydro makes the cost of energy far higher than nuke power, the reason it doesn't seem like those renewables aren't so expensive is because the cost to construct the systems is heavily subsidized by the government, which in Spain's case nearly bankrupt that country. I seriously doubt the US can meet its needs using just natural renewable sources, maybe up to 25% but that will be it. And don't forget that the Tree Huggers wants the US to build solar panels and wind mills, but when we do build them the Tree Huggers complain that the windmills were killing birds so either production is halted or the windmills turned off; the Tree Huggers liked the idea of solar panels, so we built those and they cried about how they were upsetting the habitats of varies creatures so those were stopped. Here in America it's damn if we don't and damn if we do.

It's very possible to 'recycle' nuclear waste..the technology has been around for a long time. The 'political' will isn't there tho..the public has a skewed and incorrect view of nuclear power.
Nuclear waste is recyclable. Once reactor fuel (uranium or thorium) is used in a reactor, it can be treated and put into another reactor as fuel. In fact, typical reactors only extract a few percent of the energy in their fuel. You could power the entire US electricity grid off of the energy in nuclear waste for almost 100 years (details). If you recycle the waste, the final waste that is left over decays to harmlessness within a few hundred years, rather than a million years as with standard (unrecycled) nuclear waste. This page explains how this interesting process is possible.

Chernobyl and 3 mile Island happened 1986 and 1979...30 plus years ago..Fukishima was a crappy design placed in a crappy place. There have been hundreds or thousand times more deaths from coal than all the nuke accidents but the 'public' remains emotional and ignorant. Solar, natural gas, coal and wind will NOT be enough for a electric grid where everything is powered by electricity.

https://whatisnuclear.com/recycling.html

[redir]

I guess that in France people are more aware of this and in the US there is a lot of money from the likes of the Koch brothers that works hard to convince people that they are better off when rich people and corporations pay no taxes and most people get no services or to at least distract them from what is going on.

In fact it was Enlightenment thought that crept into the common households of France in the mid 1700's that ultimately led to their bloody revolution. So they have a bit of experience with this kind of thing. I'm just waiting for the so called 'economically anxious' Americans to wake up because when they do...

[redir]

What do you mean?

;)

Oh God! We have one of those in my neighborhood.

[MikeD]

As much as the don would like to, punishing one company is illegal.


GM makes an SUV in China for sale in the US. I remember reading that GM asked for exemption from the 10% tariffs. I don't know where that stands, but the Donald could just say no.

[Davist]

It's very possible to 'recycle' nuclear waste..the technology has been around for a long time. The 'political' will isn't there tho..the public has a skewed and incorrect view of nuclear power.


Chernobyl and 3 mile Island happened 1986 and 1979...30 plus years ago..Fukishima was a crappy design placed in a crappy place. There have been hundreds or thousand times more deaths from coal than all the nuke accidents but the 'public' remains emotional and ignorant. Solar, natural gas, coal and wind will NOT be enough for a electric grid where everything is powered by electricity.

https://whatisnuclear.com/recycling.html
VERY very true, the nuclear question is about will more than anything. Even Fukishima is 2 generations behind current designs (and not that great a design, as per OP). In US our nuclear engineers are rare, and nonexistent (well other than USN) under 60+ years old. This could have been solved by continuing to build generation... rather than stopping everything in the 70s (literally every type of power plant..)

[93KgBike]

We could use the planet's EM field as an induction generator. But that does not solve the toxicity of batteries and capacitors.

The true scale of climate change emissions from shipping is almost three times higher than previously believed, according to a leaked UN study seen by the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/13/climatechange.pollution).

It calculates that annual emissions from the world's merchant fleet have already reached 1.12bn tonnes of CO2, or nearly 4.5% of all global emissions of the main greenhouse gas.

Tariff Man may inadvertently have a statistically significant effect in reducing CO2 emissions.

[cmbicycles]

... We have one of those in my neighborhood.

We have tour companies that drive people around to all those similarly view-able from space houses around Richmond... Tacky Light Tour season is here. :help:

[Davist]

We have tour companies that drive people around to all those similarly view-able from space houses around Richmond... Tacky Light Tour season is here. :help:

THEORETICALLY, with the "planned obsolescence" (ie 1 year life span or so) of the light strings, and the proliferation of LEDs this may be a case where the average Clark Griswold is at 7-15% (incandescent vs LED) of previous use in just 2 years.. but, um, yeah...

[MikeD]

VERY very true, the nuclear question is about will more than anything. Even Fukishima is 2 generations behind current designs (and not that great a design, as per OP). In US our nuclear engineers are rare, and nonexistent (well other than USN) under 60+ years old. This could have been solved by continuing to build generation... rather than stopping everything in the 70s (literally every type of power plant..)


The reason for the Fukushima accident was not because the reactors were old, etc. It was because of a flawed safety analysis that determined that a tsunami would never reach the emergency generators / cooling pumps. All light water reactors, to my knowledge, have a fatal vulnerability in that they depend upon cooling water to keep the core cool (even on shutdown reactors and spent fuel in cooling ponds) to prevent a meltdown.

These new liquid metal reactors (they aren't really new) being touted as being safe, are not either because liquid metal (Na, K, NaK) is highly corrosive and react violently with water (i.e. fire and explosion).

[Davist]

understood on flawed design, similar to the Titanic, in my view, just pointing out that technology has gotten significantly better since it was built. And yes, site selection is critically important in any construction project (I'm in data centers)

[rain dogs]

Another perspective on Germany https://www.google.com/amp/s/foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/13/germany-is-a-coal-burning-gas-guzzling-climate-change-hypocrite/amp/

In 2017, 40.3% of Germany's electricity was generated from coal!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

That article is somewhat interesting but hardly without a biased agenda. It makes assumptions that aren't supported by data and can't even get the data correct - with a cited correction at the bottom of the percentage, and then it's still incorrect when you go to the link they link.

Anyway. The bigger question is.... and? Are you saying that you believe Germany's policy is a failure? If so, why? Because they are encountering adversity in their efforts or simply based on numbers?

It sounds to me that you seem to sight the numbers, so clarify to me how we're measuring then, because Germany is getting 36-38% (from what I read and the later is what is linked in that article from coal).... is that failure?

The US 63% comes from fossil fuels. In Germany it's 45% https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

In the US only 17% comes from renewables. In Germany it's 40%.

C02 emissions per capita in Germany are not at their recent historical lowest (8.819 in 2009) they are higher at 8.889 in 2014 (the last data)

In the US they are at 16,491 (186% higher)

You seem to be interested in the matter, and highly critical of Germany and have voiced it many times. We're yet to hear your opinion of the US policy, data and numbers

So, what is your opinion there? How successful is the US if it's true, from what I read, that you believe Germany is failing?

[572cv]

Just to note that in my observation, the French are far more interested and engaged in global issues than we are. They pay attention, read, discuss and do research. It’s a cultural thing! There are numerous tv shows of talking heads dissecting an issue. And they don’t mind a good argument, but rather find it entertaining and enlightening. They are paying more attention to what is going on in this country (USA) than many of us do.

So, les gilets jaunes may not have started out as an organized group, but I’d not assume that they did not individually have a sense of their own history, of the impact of what they were doing, at least in France and in the region. They also know why the goal of reducing greenhouse gases is a good one. They do not agree that the average working joseph should bear the brunt of the tax, given how stressed many are economically.

I hope that out of this action may come a different way to approach this. Humanity as a whole has to grapple with this, but we are a fractious and tribal bunch. BTW, try to help reduce demand for products which are diminishing Indonesian forests. Huge impact there, by many accounts.

[verticaldoug]

Well, who do you think provides the jobs? Tax corporations more than the rest of the world does, and they'll move out of the country!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

actually that statement is not true. Because of the crazy US tax code, even though corporations have what appears a high nominal rate, the effective rate they pay is much much lower. Companies always report effective tax rate with quarterly earnings and these are shockingly low.

so even a low effective tax rate has not stopped them from moving production and other things abroad.

I find it funny when people say corporations are people with rights. Well, the whole purpose of a corporation is a limited liability company to protect the owners, so why should it have all the rights of a person? In fact, I'd be happy for corporations to experience my rights as a US Citizen. After I pay my foreign taxes, if those happen to be lower than my US taxes, I get to pay the difference I would owe in the US.

So let's tax Apple, Starbucks, Facebook, Google, like an American citizen. They want to be treated like people too... So after they avoid and reduce their taxes offshore using double dutch etc etc, they can pay the balance up to their US rate. Oh joy

[verticaldoug]

Another perspective on Germany https://www.google.com/amp/s/foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/13/germany-is-a-coal-burning-gas-guzzling-climate-change-hypocrite/amp/

In 2017, 40.3% of Germany's electricity was generated from coal!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

In 2013, it was 45%. So it's going down?

[Ozz]

We could use the planet's EM field as an induction generator...

Wasn't that Nikola Tesla's idea?

[YoKev]

My wife and I are in the Alsace region right now, and yesterday. we crossed the border at the Rhine River on our way from Tubingen.

We drove through two yellow vest encampments. The first looked like they were getting a tire fire ready, and the second we had to do a slalom course around tires around a roundabout and their pallet house village. Or, maybe they were readying for a good ol pallet fire.

Almost every car has a yellow vest displayed prominently on the dashboard.

Right now though their protest is being overshadowed by the manhunt for yesterday’s terrorist Christmas market shooter. What a mess.

[daker13]

Not sure if I'm paraphrasing correctly, but my economist friend once told me that Keynes thought people in the future would work less and enjoy more leisure time, what with advances in efficiency, technology etc. So far that obviously hasn't panned out, but perhaps the robot revolution will force this leisure time upon us...more time for riding bikes and playing golf, at least until the robots kill us all.

Also pointed out by Marx... Technology is supposed to free up people's time, and yet the more technology we have, the more people work.

[livingminimal]

Also pointed out by Marx... Technology is supposed to free up people's time, and yet the more technology we have, the more people work.

because capitalism.

technology is primarily harnessed as a way to produce more capital for the bosses, not recreation for the worker.

[HenryA]

Not so sure about freeing up people’s time. Waking up in the morning and having purpose in life might involve a job or some kind of work.

The downside of technology might be that people are more under employed than before. Or not employed at all. What I know of human nature is that having a reason to work and especially to benefit from your work is pretty much hard wired in people. It builds self respect and respect from others.

In caveman terms, a person who goes out and kills something and brings it back to the clan will enjoy high status in the clan.

I think this is modern France’s “let them eat cake moment” and its not working out so well for the “leadership” class. The challenge to leadership now-a-days is to make sure that all who contribute get a cookie. No cookies equals revolution.

[cloudguy]

Not so sure about freeing up people’s time. Waking up in the morning and having purpose in life might involve a job or some kind of work.

Who said anything about not working? But what about a 6-hour work day, instead of 8? For that matter, who came up with 8 to begin with and why do we all accept it as the definition of full time?

[Black Dog]

Who said anything about not working? But what about a 6-hour work day, instead of 8? For that matter, who came up with 8 to begin with and why do we all accept it as the definition of full time?

Well, Unions came up with the 8 hour work day and the 5 day work week and minimum 2 weeks of vacation. That was to replace the 10-12 hour workdays that happened 6 days a week all year long. Dam Unions!!! ;)

Americans, and Canadians, to a slightly lesser degree, have an attitude that we should all be grateful for what little time off we have and that we should work ourselves to death for the company. How else would we be able to be productive? It is total BS and accepting this is a form of self indentured existence. However, the desire for stuff, over experience drives us in this direction. Spend time in countries where people value time and each others company over stuff and you will see some more happiness and fulfilment. Funnelling all wealth to a small number of people as we are doing all over the world is not going to end well for anyone, rich or poor. Unfortunately the people who make the rules are the same people who win under these rules, every time.

[cloudguy]

Well, Unions came up with the 8 hour work day and the 5 day work week. That was to replace the 10-12 hour workdays that happened 6 days a week.

Yeah, that makes sense. My guess is that most desk jockeys (myself included) only work 6 hours a day anyway, the remaining 2 being spent on the internet, including the Paceline. :eek:

[redir]

Yeah, that makes sense. My guess is that most desk jockeys (myself included) only work 6 hours a day anyway, the remaining 2 being spent on the internet, including the Paceline. :eek:

That's even generous :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBfTrjPSShs

[93KgBike]

Not so sure about freeing up people’s time. Waking up in the morning and having purpose in life might involve a job or some kind of work.

Perhaps not all useful work is valued as compensable. For example, Einstein's theoretical work in astrophysics didn't pay his bills, but there'd have been no Bell Labs without it. If we can't accurately predict what human activity is valuable to the future by what the market will pay for, maybe we should value people more than work?

The downside of technology might be that people are more under employed than before. Or not employed at all. What I know of human nature is that having a reason to work and especially to benefit from your work is pretty much hard wired in people. It builds self respect and respect from others.

If the choice of whether to concentrate value in the accumulation of profit, or to invest in the well-being of the population continues to be a source of great pain for western value-systems, is it possible that GDP may be a good measure of productivity, but it not a good measure the health or potential of a population or the future for the child just born today?

In caveman terms, a person who goes out and kills something and brings it back to the clan will enjoy high status in the clan.

Leaving aside the unprovability of this statement; in caveman times, every member of the clan needed to be valued for the group to survive. I'd imagine that a person who goes out and finds honey, or edible seed would have higher status, because without refrigeration meat had no durable value.

I think this is modern France’s “let them eat cake moment” and its not working out so well for the “leadership” class. The challenge to leadership now-a-days is to make sure that all who contribute get a cookie. No cookies equals revolution.

If the problem with social democracy is that poor people don't want to be equal, because they want to be rich, then what does that say about society only valuing wealthy people?

[HenryA]

Perhaps not all useful work is valued as compensable. For example, Einstein's theoretical work in astrophysics didn't pay his bills, but there'd have been no Bell Labs without it. If we can't accurately predict what human activity is valuable to the future by what the market will pay for, maybe we should value people more than work?



If the choice of whether to concentrate value in the accumulation of profit, or to invest in the well-being of the population continues to be a source of great pain for western value-systems, is it possible that GDP may be a good measure of productivity, but it not a good measure the health or potential of a population or the future for the child just born today?



Leaving aside the unprovability of this statement; in caveman times, every member of the clan needed to be valued for the group to survive. I'd imagine that a person who goes out and finds honey, or edible seed would have higher status, because without refrigeration meat had no durable value.



If the problem with social democracy is that poor people don't want to be equal, because they want to be rich, then what does that say about society only valuing wealthy people?

My comments about work were intended not to advocate for a certain number of hours worked but rather for work that might be satisfying and maybe even rewarding to the worker and society. I’m saying having both the ability to make a decent living AND some satisfaction might be a goal to work towards.

It appears to me that the yellow jackets may not be feeling either one these days. And when there is even the appearance of central planning or a group of leaders in charge who dictate how others will live, those dictated to will have an expectation of good planning and a good result.

Not to wander off into the individual’s or group’s consent to be governed, but well, when things don’t seem to be going right it’s going to be someone’s fault. Here, who else to look to but Macron and cronies?

[redir]

I think the thing about work is that an hour is almost a form of currency. Like when you are finalizing a contact with someone to commit to doing some work you base a lot of what it costs on how much time it's gonna take. So you know you are going to need 5 workers and it will take about 2000 hours and you do the math. Of course you try to get it done faster then that then you really make the money.

The opposite of that would be salaried employees... That's almost worse. Ah yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to come in on Saturday...

[oldpotatoe]

VERY very true, the nuclear question is about will more than anything. Even Fukishima is 2 generations behind current designs (and not that great a design, as per OP). In US our nuclear engineers are rare, and nonexistent (well other than USN) under 60+ years old. This could have been solved by continuing to build generation... rather than stopping everything in the 70s (literally every type of power plant..)

Modern Nuclear 'pocket' reactors, like those in USN CVs and submarines, are VERY safe and VERY modern. That technology coupled with proven ways to recycle and reuse the nuclear material, could provide clean, emissions free energy for many, many years BUT..the political will isn't there, coupled with a white house and congress who are bought and paid for by 'BigEnergy'...

[93KgBike]

Modern Nuclear 'pocket' reactors, like those in USN CVs and submarines, are VERY safe and VERY modern...
This statement is only 100% true when not accounting for human behavior...

Years ago, when this story about a small research reactor (https://passingstrangeness.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/sl-1-murder-by-nuclear-reactor/) was declassified it was the subject of a great deal of speculation about marital infedilty and revenge. It's been more than a decade since I thought of it, and now the internet has produced a neat narrative account.

Any strategy that involves crossing a valley accepting short-term losses to reach a higher hill in the distance will soon be brought to a halt by the demands of a system that celebrates short-term gains and tolerates stagnation, but condemns anything else as failure. In short, a world where big stuff can never get done.
Micro-nuclear is never gonna happen.

[wc1934]

5th week - picture is worth a thousand/ten thousand words.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6498733/Up-8-000-police-bolster-streets-Paris-Yellow-Vest-protesters-plan-chaos.html

"Around 69,000 security forces were mobilised across France, down from 89,000".

"The Vests have been joined by extremists from the far Right and the ultra-Left, as well as anarchists intent on causing as much damage as possible".

[dancinkozmo]

in america baseball is the national pastime...in france its going on strike

[froze]

in america baseball is the national pastime...in france its going on strike

Give us a chance, someday we may be rioting again...I say again because you have to remember what happened during the Vietnam war here in America...something called riots happened, maybe you should look that bit of history up.

[verticaldoug]

Give us a chance, someday we may be rioting again...I say again because you have to remember what happened during the Vietnam war here in America...something called riots happened, maybe you should look that bit of history up.

I am impressed by the restraint the French security forces have shown versus the protest.

If this was happening in America, you'd see much more aggressive stance, and because of the constant fear of guns, probably some deaths.

If you recall the Occupy Wall Street protest in NYC, you had the policemen that decided to pepper spray two young women who were protesting behind a barrricade fence, and then the UC Davis incident when the police had a group of students who were already cuffed, kneel in a line so he could walk down the line pepper spraying everyone in the eyes.

If you want an interesting read, read the propublica series on Elkhard Police in indiana.

[oldpotatoe]

Modern Nuclear 'pocket' reactors, like those in USN CVs and submarines, are VERY safe and VERY modern...

This statement is only 100% true when not accounting for human behavior...

The USN Nukes have been installed, serviced and repaired for decades, by 'humans' w/o any issues.

Micro-nuclear is never gonna happen.

Oh I know, shows how feckless people are. A viable, long term, clean solution but something that happened 40 years ago that somebody read about in a book...makes people shake with fear. Maybe they need to see how many have died as a result of 'coal'.

[oldpotatoe]

Give us a chance, someday we may be rioting again...I say again because you have to remember what happened during the Vietnam war here in America...something called riots happened, maybe you should look that bit of history up.

I only thing keeping people out of yellow vests here is a pretty good economy..when that goes south(and it will)..buckle up!!

[daker13]

5th week - picture is worth a thousand/ten thousand words.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6498733/Up-8-000-police-bolster-streets-Paris-Yellow-Vest-protesters-plan-chaos.html

"Around 69,000 security forces were mobilised across France, down from 89,000".

"The Vests have been joined by extremists from the far Right and the ultra-Left, as well as anarchists intent on causing as much damage as possible".

A very trustworthy reporting of events in France, from the UK rag that Wikipedia deems an unreliable source. Saying the demonstrators are protesting France's 'high cost of living' is a pretty silly description.

[572cv]

As has been shown in so many other instances in the western world in recent years, passing cash, information, logistics and fanning the flame can have an effect.....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-probes-any-moscow-role-in-yellow-vest-movement-11544826863

[ultraman6970]

Socialism works, but when the country gets up to certain size is not going to work anymore, the other thing is that the EU is imploding slowly due to weird deals related with cooperation between the countries, things I call... "we have to look good to the other countries" type of situations.

Globalism works but again... up to certain country sizes. After that becomes a problem for the locals because the locals start maintaining other economies and problems that arent even theirs. And that's what is going on, and france is just a good example of it. Ask that to the canadians that need to go to the US to get a scan or get surgery because if they wait in line for their turn they are better just going to get the coffin and the hole where they will spend the rest of their lives.

Ford is going out of france in the next months, so there's a lot more to come in france, this is just the beginning.

[froze]

I only thing keeping people out of yellow vests here is a pretty good economy..when that goes south(and it will)..buckle up!!

Exactly, Americans act all proud because we don't riot and point our fingers at France need to be careful because as we point our fingers at others we have 3 other fingers pointing back at ourselves!! Anything at anytime can happen to America, it only takes the right circumstances to be doing what France is doing, and it could be a lot worse than what France is doing. It just puts a bad taste in my mouth when I hear Americans speak badly about how another country acts when we have acted just like that in the past and could very well act like that again in the future. But when Americans act like, and talk like, we're special, we're the best, we're superior, etc, our cocky behavior puts a negative taste about Americans in other countries.

[Jef58]

Socialism works, but when the country gets up to certain size is not going to work anymore, the other thing is that the EU is imploding slowly due to weird deals related with cooperation between the countries, things I call... "we have to look good to the other countries" type of situations.

Globalism works but again... up to certain country sizes. After that becomes a problem for the locals because the locals start maintaining other economies and problems that arent even theirs. And that's what is going on, and france is just a good example of it. Ask that to the canadians that need to go to the US to get a scan or get surgery because if they wait in line for their turn they are better just going to get the coffin and the hole where they will spend the rest of their lives.

Ford is going out of france in the next months, so there's a lot more to come in france, this is just the beginning.

This is it, in a simplified nutshell... I have a friend at work who lived in France, and still has family there, that mirrors most of this quote. In my mind, the EU reminds me of a feudal system where a certain class supports an upper class while they govern as 'they' see fit. Unfortunately 'populism' has become a nasty word to those progressives that want to take the power away from the same people who are sustaining them....

[Gummee]

Oh I know, shows how feckless people are. A viable, long term, clean solution but something that happened 40 years ago that somebody read about in a book...makes people shake with fear. Maybe they need to see how many have died as a result of 'coal'.Starting with the people that mine the stuff...

M

[froze]

So far there has been no perfect form of government, probably because in order to have a government you have to have people running it and in a very short time they become corrupt and out of control. Historically the democratic system with three branches of of government has worked out the best, but like I said even the best system goes astray due to people who are in control going power and money hungry. This is why the US government is unique because while we have the Constitution that protects the basic freedoms we also have the Bill of Rights which protects us from having those freedoms revoked and gives us the power to retake the government should it run amok. Of course that last sentence was a nutshell overview, but what is disturbing in the US is that schools no longer teach students, or teach them very little, as to the importance of both of our contracts, our schools just gloss over it quickly as if they're not important, so kids who will grow up to be adults won't realize how much power they could wield if necessary, or understand their rights; kind of makes me wonder if not teaching that stuff to our youth is purposeful because it's the federal government that is in charge of our schools. What's odd is that people who want to legally become citizens must know more about our Constitution and our Bill of Rights then our own citizens must know. The unfortunate danger we now face is a government no longer controlled by the people and which no longer feels responsible toward them; this is a problem created by the educational system, which is of course federally controlled.

[jlwdm]

So far there has been no perfect form of government...

...

Benevolent dictator. Just hard to come by.

Jeff

[froze]

Benevolent dictator. Just hard to come by.

Jeff

I don't know but I think the democrats would like to see that for America!

[cloudguy]

I don't know but I think the democrats would like to see that for America!

Yeah, meanwhile, he-who-must-not-be-named is under all sorts of investigations and the repugnicans don't make a peep, since they love their little malevolent dicktator.

[froze]

Yeah, meanwhile, he-who-must-not-be-named is under all sorts of investigations and the repugnicans don't make a peep, since they lover their little dicktator.

Well there was a lot of things, and worse things, that Hillary Clinton did and she's never been convicted either. Bill Clinton should have been impeached for his affair, but nooo, and that wasn't his only fling nor about all his other illegal stuff he did and still does. So the Demogods do the same crap. In fact all, or at least most, politicians, including Reps and Dems, participate in insider trading that is illegal for us to do. Welcome to America

[93KgBike]

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fmoney%2Fdam%2F assets%2F150902160240-russian-internet-trolls-780x439.jpg&f=1

[CunegoFan]

Yeah, meanwhile, he-who-must-not-be-named is under all sorts of investigations and the repugnicans don't make a peep, since they lover their little malevolent dicktator.

Yup. It does appear the Republican elite may regret not handpicking their candidate and rigging the primary election so the rabble's vote would be nothing more than a rubber stamp. And the political aristocracy wonders why it has lost the trust of the people, who will vote for any alternative. Easier to blame the Russian bogeyman I guess.

[Dekonick]

....back on topic....

Anyone think this will impact the spring classics? I hope not...

[m4rk540]

Yup. It does appear the Republican elite may regret not handpicking their candidate and rigging the primary election so the rabble's vote would be nothing more than a rubber stamp. And the political aristocracy wonders why it has lost the trust of the people, who will vote for any alternative. Easier to blame the Russian bogeyman I guess.

Never trust a guy who's never had a drink in his life.

Never trust a guy who likes 60 calorie beer.

Never trust a guy who loves beer at 16.

[cloudguy]

Never trust a guy who's never had a drink in his life.

Never trust a guy who likes 60 calorie beer.

Never trust a guy who loves beer at 16.

The three horsemen of the Apocalypse...

[cloudguy]

The Republican elite may regret not handpicking their candidate
The "Republican elite" don't exist anymore, if there every was such a thing - all that's left are the trash in the hollers and trailer parks.

[ultraman6970]

I believe the problem is at both sides.

Politics turned into agendas for both sides, here, there and everywhere. And globally speaking we got to a point that is getting in conflict with the real issues of every country with their own people.

The other big issue is that if politicians do not lie, they dont get elected, no matter if you are right side, left side or even center they say what the people want to hear so they get elected, if half way the promeses were taken by the wind... well... it is what it is. Which is sad, because at the end nothing gets done and we end up worried more about what the kardashians eat or did during the weekend than focused in what really matters, that is everybody rowing in the same direction with a common target. Both sides have their agendas and nothing gets done, just sad.

[oldpotatoe]

Well there was a lot of things, and worse things, that Hillary Clinton did and she's never been convicted either. Bill Clinton should have been impeached for his affair, but nooo, and that wasn't his only fling nor about all his other illegal stuff he did and still does. So the Demogods do the same crap. In fact all, or at least most, politicians, including Reps and Dems, participate in insider trading that is illegal for us to do. Welcome to America

Surprised this isn't closed yet..
Hillary who? Worse things? Righto..
Yup, slick willie should have gone back to Arkansas...but
#muelleriscoming and it isn't going to be pretty..better get yer 'pence 2020' buttons out.

The ONLY thing keeping the repubs on the sidelines is the economy..when that goes south and the budget deficit for 2019 goes to about $1.5 TRILLON, then they 'may' speak up but buckle up, gonna be a bumpy 1-2 years...

[AngryScientist]

i havent had a chance to read through this whole thread yet, but it appears that we are now discussing US politics, which; well......: we should not.