A trivial observation/annoyance

[Cloozoe]

First a confession: The last new bicycle or frame I bought was a Peugeot UO-8 in 1969. Bought it at a shop in the East Village for about $100 IIRC,

Paying anywhere from a nickel to a quarter on the original dollar for high quality bikes or frames in good condition and relatively recent vintage (I'm old, so my idea of "relatively recent" may not match that of you 20-somethings) has too much appeal for this non-millionaire, competent bike mechanic to do otherwise.

Some recent examples from eBay:

Cervelo RS F/F/HS - $234.50
Time VXRS F/F/HS - $265
Look 585 - Opening bid $249 (failed to sell)
Look 585 Optimum, complete bike, Dura Ace - $605
Colnago C40, Art Decor, complete bike, Record - Opening bid $750 (failed to sell)

Makes it awfully hard for me to swallow paying $2k-$5k for a comparable, new F/F/HS, notwithstanding that (at least according to the bike companies and cycling magazines) the improvements over the last few years are so profound that riding one of the above listed bikes is the equivalent to putting pedals on a wheel barrow and trying to get around on that.

No warranty, you say? Awfully expensive warranty, I say.

So eBay and other online for-sale venues it is for this cheapskate.

And searching for a Colnago or Cervelo or Pinarello or Moots is a piece of cake. But try entering "Look" or "Time" or "22".

Anybody else ever notice what a pain in the ass that is? I've written numerous letters to the aforementioned manufacturers demanding that they change their names so that when I go to buy one of their bikes used 5 years from now, it will be more convenient, but, amazingly enough, they've ignored me!

[Tickdoc]

First a confession: The last new bicycle or frame I bought was a Peugeot UO-8 in 1969. Bought it at a shop in the East Village for about $100 IIRC,

Paying anywhere from a nickel to a quarter on the original dollar for high quality bikes or frames in good condition and relatively recent vintage (I'm old, so my idea of "relatively recent" may not match that of you 20-somethings) has too much appeal for this non-millionaire, competent bike mechanic to do otherwise.

Some recent examples from eBay:

Cervelo RS F/F/HS - $234.50
Time VXRS F/F/HS - $265
Look 585 - Opening bid $249 (failed to sell)
Look 585 Optimum, complete bike, Dura Ace - $605
Colnago C40, Art Decor, complete bike, Record - Opening bid $750 (failed to sell)

Makes it awfully hard for me to swallow paying $2k-$5k for a comparable, new F/F/HS, notwithstanding that (at least according to the bike companies and cycling magazines) the improvements over the last few years are so profound that riding one of the above listed bikes is the equivalent to putting pedals on a wheel barrow and trying to get around on that.

No warranty, you say? Awfully expensive warranty, I say.

So eBay and other online for-sale venues it is for this cheapskate.

And searching for a Colnago or Cervelo or Pinarello or Moots is a piece of cake. But try entering "Look" or "Time" or "22".

Anybody else ever notice what a pain in the ass that is? I've written numerous letters to the aforementioned manufacturers demanding that they change their names so that when I go to buy one of their bikes used 5 years from now, it will be more convenient, but, amazingly enough, they've ignored me!

great post and I for one wholeheartedly endorse your cheapskate lifetsyle.

I'll add seven and mosiac to the list of unambigous search names. Faggin anyone? Canyon, Giant, fuji....the list goes on.

[saab2000]

High end bikes are among the worst purchases we can make, at least from a financial perspective. Most of my bikes came to me used and I'm quite happy with them. Today's high end stuff will be "outdated" in 24-36 months, tops.

Selling off a bunch at the moment to downsize my fleet.

The depreciation is eye watering, no question about it.

[Spaghetti Legs]

The satisfaction of riding a top end bike from, really, not that long ago in the grand scheme, far outweighs what I would imagine to be the fleeting satisfaction and (maybe) tiny incremental speed advantage of riding the latest and greatest. I’m with ya OP.

My cross to bear: trying to research my Moser Pro. Just keep getting pics of Francesco or his nephew Moreno at their races.

[mhespenheide]

For road bikes, I used to chase the idea that I was looking to ride a bike that could have won the TdF 10-15 years earlier. Still far better than I needed, but priced within reach.


On the flip side, I see some bikes listed on Califoria Craigslists that claim to have been bought two or three years earlier for, say, $8000 that the seller is asking $5000 for. Hoo, boy -- good luck with that!

[Cloozoe]

I'll add seven and mosiac to the list of unambigous search names. Faggin anyone? Canyon, Giant, fuji....the list goes on.

Firefly, Spectrum come to mind as well. I'm sure there are more.

But Time has to take the cake for pain-in-the-assdom; at least if you search for, say, Canyon, on eBay, you can then narrow it down by category and once you're in "cycling" you're home free. Do the same with Time, and you have to slog through a jillion time trial bikes.

[C40_guy]

High end bikes are among the worst purchases we can make, at least from a financial perspective. Most of my bikes came to me used and I'm quite happy with them. Today's high end stuff will be "outdated" in 24-36 months, tops.

I bought a 3 year old C50 frame for 50% of new. Today that same frame is worth 1/4th of new, maybe. The only two new frames I bought were both custom.

High end European cars have the same problem. So...I've been buying 4-8 year old Audis, with 100K+ miles on them, for, on average, 20% of what they sold for new. Sure it costs a few dollars to keep them on the road, but it seems that many of the bugs get worked out before I buy them. My least reliable Audi was the newest, with the least miles.

Let someone else take the depreciation hit. :)

[weisan]

It's easy for me to pontificate especially coming from someone who claimed to have everything.

My face used to lit up with glee when I scored a hit, not mentioning the adrenaline rush. Either I am really good at it or just plain dumb luck, probably a bit of both, in less than 5 years, I have pretty much plowed the field and harvested all the bikes that I ever wanted and reached my lifetime "goals".

"So, what else is new? Where do I go from here?" I asked myself.

Having lived the equivalent of a bike-life of excess and privilege, I guess I can boil it down to two things.

1) Experience and people will triumph over bikes....any day, any where, any how!

For example, I will gladly surrender the Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra and the Richard Sachs in exchange for the opportunity to spend a summer with Velotel serving as his slave and do his bidding as long as I get to follow behind when he goes out for a ride.

2) The bikes will keep "improving", while I won't.

With age, it's becoming harder and harder to maintain the same level of fitness and energy. Even if money is no object, who am I to kid, that $15,000 wunderbike is not gonna change my life or reverse the effects of aging.

That's all I got.

Go ahead, don't let me spoil the fun, happy bargain hunting, I might still join in every now and then, old habits die hard.

[joosttx]

try using filters so the search will be within bicycles for sale or something like that.

[zzy]

I'd go as far as saying road bikes were sometimes better 5-10 years ago than they are today - no proprietary garbage, no pressfit BBs, some still made in Europe (Time/Look/BMC), external cable routing, etc. There have been dramatically diminishing returns on road bikes over the last decade. Probably why OEMs are making such a big push on all-road bikes.

[thwart]

Discs... have made a lot of very nice and relatively new bikes much more affordable for folks who aren't rolling in $$$ and don't mind doing a little tune-up and clean-up.

But then again, you won't be riding a disc bike...

The horror.

;)

[peanutgallery]

Road bikes are one thing, but I would never buy a used mtb...ever. It's not worth it. If you're going to buy used make it a good one...don't get a Jamis

For the record, I've only ever purchased 1 used bike (a Merlin). Didn't regret it, but I often wondered if the former owner sat on it nekkid or yelled at it abusively. I've always preferred new stuff as opposed to something sweated upon

[R3awak3n]

This is the first year I actually bought a new bike... usually get used and its been great, no problems to report. Actually I have had more problems with my new bike than my used ones (all solved now, great bike). Only reason I got this bike new is that it is the beginning of this type of bike so not a lot on the used market like it... that and carbon, I think I prefer buying carbon bikes new

[pbarry]

try using filters so the search will be within bicycles for sale or something like that.

^^ THIS
Scroll down on the upper left side of the results page, then click on "Sporting Goods" in categories. Much quicker than composing letters to manufacturers.. ;)

[weisan]

If you're going to buy used make it a good one...don't get a Jamis


If y'all don't mind, peanut and I need to have a side conversation here.

The dynamics of bike riding and bike buying are quite interesting. In actual fact, they are not very different from real life. Often times, the ones with the highest wattage, FTPs, average speed, most number of tour wins, coveted framebuilders, most expensive$$$, weight-wenniest, most sought-after brands, on and on and on.....may or may not be the best or accurate "metrics" for success.

It all depends on what and where you are looking at.

Bhutan - World's Happiest Country
Wiki:
In South Asia, Bhutan ranks first in economic freedom, ease of doing business, and peace; third in per capita income; and is the least corrupt country as of 2016. However, Bhutan continues to be a least developed country.

https://swikblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/39402_Happy-Old-Man-Bhutan-1024x663.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/23/18/00231836bf073595b7a329a7a925f72d.jpg

[pdmtong]

all the older guys (age 70-75ish) I sometimes ride with have replaced their rides with carbon, taller head tube, electric and hydro discs.

they still have the legs to do 70/7000' but now their backs and necks feel better and their hands are less sore after descending.

it's not a question about absorbing a depreciation hit to have the latest, it's more the recognition that these bikes improve their riding comfort and that while still strong, they are in the 4th quarter now and nothing can slow the hands of time

[tylercheung]

Someone should do Hydro Rim....

[jtbadge]

Someone should do Hydro Rim....

SRAM did it: https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/category/components/groupsets/groupset-road/product/review-sram-red-22-11-speed-group-with-hydro-r-rim-calipers-13-47174/

Problem is, for it not to look sloppy, you need frame fittings for full cable housing, which many road bikes don't have.

[efixler]

I love this thread

[Ronsonic]

For road bikes, I used to chase the idea that I was looking to ride a bike that could have won the TdF 10-15 years earlier. Still far better than I needed, but priced within reach.


Pretty much my formula, except I've drifted back in that pack to something competitive at the turn of the century.

[shinomaster]

I gave my neighbor my old Fuji cross bike. He just snapped the steerer tube catastrophically. He could easily have died. Good luck.

[peanutgallery]

I don't read about you carrying on about your latest Hudson or Explorer. Even in this thread it was your Merckx and Sachs

If you want to go this route and call me out for being a little snobby, that's fine, I have broad shoulders. I will challenge you to send the deal to real differential that you get from the bike co-op to Bhutan. Earmark it for a sustainable clean water program...then come back and chide me. I'll want receipts:)

Simple enough, I like new stuff. It's pretty cool and very straightforward, lighter...faster...stronger. I need all I can get as I'm getting old

If y'all don't mind, peanut and I need to have a side conversation here.

The dynamics of bike riding and bike buying are quite interesting. In actual fact, they are not very different from real life. Often times, the ones with the highest wattage, FTPs, average speed, most number of tour wins, coveted framebuilders, most expensive$$$, weight-wenniest, most sought-after brands, on and on and on.....may or may not be the best or accurate "metrics" for success.

It all depends on what and where you are looking at.

Bhutan - World's Happiest Country
Wiki:


https://swikblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/39402_Happy-Old-Man-Bhutan-1024x663.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/23/18/00231836bf073595b7a329a7a925f72d.jpg

[oliver1850]

The satisfaction of riding a top end bike from, really, not that long ago in the grand scheme, far outweighs what I would imagine to be the fleeting satisfaction and (maybe) tiny incremental speed advantage of riding the latest and greatest. I’m with ya OP.

My cross to bear: trying to research my Moser Pro. Just keep getting pics of Francesco or his nephew Moreno at their races.

My sentiments exactly about bikes in general. A high end bike from 1950 is still a high end bike. I have never had the engine to ride as good riders from any given era did, but I can still appreciate the hardware.

I have a NOS Moser Pro Evolution here, but know next to nothing about it. Believe it may have been made in 2000 as it has a printed tag on the DT near the bottom bracket bearing the year. Lugged frame, blue and yellow with chrome stays, Campagnolo dropouts, and a metal head badge. Need to find a fork for it.

[smontanaro]

Do the same with Time, and you have to slog through a jillion time trial bikes.

Search in Cycling for "time -trial".


Complete bikes (https://www.ebay.com/sch/177831/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=time+-trial)

Bike frames (https://www.ebay.com/sch/22679/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=time+-trial)

[oldpotatoe]

Someone should do Hydro Rim....

Magura did like how many decades ago? Way complicated answer to a really simple question, IMHO. Modern DP brakes are simple, light, cheap, easy to setup and maintain.
Hydro rim version of coffee maker..

[AngryScientist]

there are lots of things that have terrible ROI, in terms of resale value. many have ZERO.

my yearly spending, for example on restaurant food, far outpaces my spending on bicycles. of course the resale value of an excellent meal at a top notch restaurant is zero.

as far as bicycles, we are a bit of bike nuts here, with lots of gear, but in general, i dont think most people purchase a bike, new or used, with an eye towards selling them. buy what you like, and use it. for most of us it's a recreational item, and as long as we can afford the pricetag, it's not something that necessarily needs to be justified.

speaking of which, "justifying" bike purchases is just a rabbit hole that the OP has gone down.

it's very easy to justify purchasing a $2,000 dollar used bike if we tell ourselves how responsible it was to do that over buying a $6,000 new bike - but let's face it - you can pretty much manipulate that same argument in any fashion you need to :banana::hello:

anyway, bikes are nothing that should be driving anyone into the poor house.

now if we want to talk about boats, there's a money pit worth losing your mortgage payment over!

[oldpotatoe]

gad ZOOKS..$4500 F/F..hurry!!

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/mtb/news/article/cannondale-limited-edition-f-si-throwback-framesets-53313/

[jcs7282]

Another angle to this discussion is the height/fit of the rider in question. Some of us who would love to shop for used bargains are constrained by the skinny inventory of used gear that fits us.

Take me for instance...I am quite short (relative to average) and therefore ride small (50 or 51 usually, depends on brand) frames. These can be very hard to find on the secondhand market, depending on what you are looking for. Further complicating things in my case is that I am heavy for my size (fire hydrant build!) so if it's a custom frame that was tailored to the original owner's weight, well, chances are the frame was designed around someone 25-50lbs lighter than me!

Compare that to someone who fits a 54/55/56 and the used options and inventory seem to increase exponentially, because, of course, there are many more people out there buying/selling bikes in that size range.

At the end of the day...to each their own. I'd love to buy like-new/used, but since I usually keep my bikes forever (or 'til they break) I'll buy new if I must (and usually I must).

[El Chaba]

My amateur-armchair economic analysis of the situation is something like this:....There is a bit of conflation of the terms *value* and *cost*. On the secondary market, those nice bikes are selling for their value. New bikes have two items built into their cost-their value and the marketing hype. It would seem that marketing hype is rather costly to the buyer....

[Blown Reek]

Simple enough, I like new stuff. It's pretty cool and very straightforward, lighter...faster...stronger.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. No need to shame someone for getting new, expensive stuff, just like there's no glory in choosing to get non-new, not-expensive stuff. What floats someone's boat in Bhutan might not float someone's boat in a more, um... developed nation, but that's an ethnocentric view that I'm not going to take.

After all, the guy's teeth on the right are the equivalent of a new, off-the-shelf carbon road bike. The guy on the left has the equivalent teeth of a co-op built bike. Sure, the teeth on the left were as good as the teeth on the right at one time, and they obviously get the job done, but why have a headful of good teeth when only a few work just as well?

Maybe if Bhutan was all I knew, I'd be happy there. But I'm sure that peanutgallery is just fine with all his new bike stuff and teeth, and personally, I'm happier with those things, too.

[weisan]

.

[weisan]

Same people same conversations...going round and round and round...

Nobody shaming anybody. If anything, it might be the other way round but we are not going to talk about that.

Over-reaching conclusions.

Always think on the negative.

Sorry.

Not my kinda people.

Never been, never will.

But that's ok. The world is big enough for all of us.

I can choose and pick where I belong and who I drink with.

So can you...so please do. I am not bored. I don't need to be engaged.


It's all good.

Done and done.

[93KgBike]

I am a fan of used bikes and parts, and also new bikes and parts.

But...

Bhutan gets a lot of press based on Western misperceptions of what Buddhist rule means. The kingdom of Bhutan discriminates and oppresses its Muslim population with all the qualities of the Burmese except mass-murder (this century anyway). There are no humans with 'isms' that set them above human failings.

Cycling is not that popular there, either.

[Cloozoe]

speaking of which, "justifying" bike purchases is just a rabbit hole that the OP has gone down.



Actually, the OP was just trying to make a funny observation about the relative difficulty of searching eBay for, say, Time bikes vs, say, Colnago bikes. The stuff about how cheap I am and the cost of new vs used bikes was just preamble since finding a new Time bike is easy and hence would have been a non-sequitur relative to the joke.

As an aside, I'm the last guy on earth to worry about "justifying" what I do or denigrating what others do; in the first instance because very little about me is justifiable and thus I had to give up trying a long time ago, and in the second because why on earth should I care?

You have, however, made me realize that virtually all my posts should include the following disclaimer, to wit:

Warning! Not for the Literal-Minded or Humor-Impaired!

[godfrey1112000]

If a new ride is purchased you will drive yourself crazy looking at resale, usually $0.20 on the dollar if your are lucky,

Now if you purchase a high quality frame and add upgraded parts lets say wheels, Di, cockpit …… your cost could approach $7-10k in initial and capitalized upgrades, now keep that piece of equipment for 14 years and ride the daylights out of it your cost is $500-$700 per year.
or about $0.10 a mile excluding tires and routine service

You do not get hurt

Where the trip to the financial intensive care unit is trading off every two years for a new unit, although your financing the project with the funds from the sale of a used bike your are always taking a huge hit

some guys like new dream bikes and have cash
others like the hunt

as long as everyone is happy and unarmed :eek:

a very good thread, thanks for the thoughts

there are lots of things that have terrible ROI, in terms of resale value. many have ZERO.

my yearly spending, for example on restaurant food, far outpaces my spending on bicycles. of course the resale value of an excellent meal at a top notch restaurant is zero.

as far as bicycles, we are a bit of bike nuts here, with lots of gear, but in general, i dont think most people purchase a bike, new or used, with an eye towards selling them. buy what you like, and use it. for most of us it's a recreational item, and as long as we can afford the pricetag, it's not something that necessarily needs to be justified.

speaking of which, "justifying" bike purchases is just a rabbit hole that the OP has gone down.

it's very easy to justify purchasing a $2,000 dollar used bike if we tell ourselves how responsible it was to do that over buying a $6,000 new bike - but let's face it - you can pretty much manipulate that same argument in any fashion you need to :banana::hello:

anyway, bikes are nothing that should be driving anyone into the poor house.

now if we want to talk about boats, there's a money pit worth losing your mortgage payment over!

[AngryScientist]

You have, however, made me realize that virtually all my posts should include the following disclaimer, to wit:

Warning! Not for the Literal-Minded or Humor-Impaired!

i know:)

i was just adding to the humor :hello:


"look honey, i saved a bundle buying this $2k bike used!!"

[Kirk007]

i know:)



"look honey, i saved a bundle buying this $2k bike used!!"

yeah my wife caught on to this false logic about 6 bikes ago and now chooses to simply ignore what's happening on my side of the garage, leaving me to struggle alone with the question of whether I need to create and enter a 12 step program for bike addiction.

[Kirk007]

Simple enough, I like new stuff. It's pretty cool and very straightforward, lighter...faster...stronger. I need all I can get as I'm getting old

Me too in needing all the help I can get and have bought a couple new custom bikes in the past two years, but I've also held on to a decade old bike - Peg Marcelo, and acquired a couple 5+ year old bikes (and yes at a fraction of the new cost).

Based on my experience I wouldn't agree that new stuff is necessarily lighter...faster....stronger at least to the point where it would make a difference for most of us who don't race their bikes for a living. I think the real life gains here are quite marginal over the past decade or so.

[mhespenheide]

I think the real life gains here are quite marginal over the past decade or so.

Let's not go too far down that rabbit hole, or we'll be forced to admit that 90+% of us would be fine (on the road) riding a used $200 Italian frame from the 80's, a 5800 gruppo, and a set of nice-but-$400 modern wheels! :help:

[bambam]

...
Some recent examples from eBay:

Cervelo RS F/F/HS - $234.50
Time VXRS F/F/HS - $265
Look 585 - Opening bid $249 (failed to sell)
Look 585 Optimum, complete bike, Dura Ace - $605
Colnago C40, Art Decor, complete bike, Record - Opening bid $750 (failed to sell)
...


Seem like some good deals. Could be quirky things with these like, local pick-up only, troubling figuring out the sizing, wanting extra steertube, seatmast to short, short auction, bad descriptions, seller responses that make no sense, etc.
I have asked sellers for headtube measurements before, since they are easier measure, and compare them to official geometry charts. They either never get back with me or give questionable answers.

... I need to create and enter a 12 step program for bike addiction.

No you don't. Your doing just fine. This addiction is justifiable therapy. Mental and physical.
:)

BamBam

[oldpotatoe]

Let's not go too far down that rabbit hole, or we'll be forced to admit that 90+% of us would be fine (on the road) riding a used $200 Italian frame from the 80's, an old Campag friction shifter group, and a set of nice-but-$400 modern wheels! :help:

FIFY-:)

Reality, what a concept...losing a BUNCH of coffee shop points tho and those are important!!:eek:

[mhespenheide]

FIFY-:)

Reality, what a concept...losing a BUNCH of coffee shop points tho and those are important!!:eek:

I hear you, but 5800 can be less expensive than some of the old Campagnolo friction shifter groups...
:)

[Clean39T]

...enter a 12 step program for bike addiction.

We could start a support group, but putting two recovering addicts* in the same room may not be a great idea.

.
.
.
.
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* said in context, obviously real addiction is not a laughing matter..