To ST or Not ST?

[Michael Katz]

Any thoughts on the benefits, drawbacks, value etc of the ST rear on the Ottrott versus the regular rear. Different handling and/or ride characteristics? Any concern about wear and free play in the pivot points?

[vaxn8r]

BostonDrunk linked Darrell McCulloch's site earlier today and I thought there was an interesting take on CF seat stays. It's worth reading.

http://www.llewellynbikes.com/materialpartsdisc/carbonstays.htm

[Needs Help]

From the Serotta 2002 Catalog which introduced the Ottrott and one year before Serotta introduced the ST rear:

"We looked first to the work that other companies have done. Why is it that carbon is used in the rear half of bicycles? The answer is there isn't a good answer, except it looks chic."

But, boy does it look sexy! :) Although I need to qualify that: I think for frames smaller than around 60cm the ST rear is really smart looking, but for frames larger than 61cm the ST rear looks droopy.

When the Hors rear triangle was still around, Serotta had three choices for the rear triangle for an Ottrott, and Serotta had a nice section on their website with a description and the deflection numbers for each. I think the classic rear had 1mm of travel, the ST had 2mm of travel, and the Hors had 3mm of travel. I think those were maximum figures. So, from an engineering point of view it would seem the ST rear could possibly have twice the deflection of a classic rear. However, supposedly it only occurs with hard cornering when g forces activate the travel, and doesn’t occur when going over bumps on the flats--with bumps on the flats, the tire and rim get the shock, and the stay doesn’t load(I'm not really sure why :confused: ). So, if you have a lot of hills around you and descend like a madman, you might get some better performance out of the ST rear.

You might want to email David Kirk to get some candid thoughts on the matter.

[Kevin]

I'm not an engineer so I can't tell you why it rides so well. But my Ottrott ST has a great ride. It corners well. It absorbs road vibration while still giving good road feel. It is a great bike.

Kevin

[Jay Torborg]

My first Serotta was (is) an Ottrott ST. I absolutely love the ride. After owning this for about a year, I ordered a second Serotta for traveling, a Concours with S&S couplings. I asked Serotta to make the ride of the Concours as close as possible to the Ottrott. It has the same geometry and is set up with more-or-less the same components (04 Record instead of 03, different wheels but I've tried both wheelsets on both bikes).

The Ottrott is much smoother riding and less fatiguing on a long (100 mi or longer) ride. I don't know how much of this ride quality is due to the ST stays, but I would expect that these stays have a significant influence on the ride.

On the other hand, the Concours feels a little zippier - it seems to accelerate a bit faster and feels a little stiffer when climbing out of the saddle. This might also be a function of the ST stays.

All in all, I prefer the ride of the Ottrott and wouldn't hesitate to pick it for a long ride. But the Concours is also fun to ride and is a great travel bike.

[Michael Katz]

Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far. Jay, your comparison of your Ottrott ST with your Concours was of particular interest since I currently have an all ti bike. Of the bikes I own, my CSI is the smoothest riding and most comfortable. I'm not sure whether this is due to the frame material, positioning or the wheels (Open Pro's laced with 14/15 spokes as opposed to Eurus and Ksyrium SL's on my other bikes). My Ti bike is the best handling and stiffest through the rear for climbing and accelerating. I am conceiving of the Ottrott as a meld of the two - kind of like Jeff Goldblum in The Fly but a lot prettier.

[SPOKE]

Michael,
here's a few thoughts for you. (i own one of the original Ottrott's w/ ti rear end, Hor's, and an Ottrott St).
the Ottrott w/ the Ti rear is built with the OS chainstays (single bend style). these stays are designed for the 200lb club of riders. i only weigh about 170lbs. this bike is a rocket! but i don't find it overly harsh riding.
the Hor's is built with Serotta's standard chainstays. it is a very plush ride IMO and i think it is a little too soft. you can feel the rear of the bike compress with you pedal stroke during seated steep climbs if you're in a small gear. the feeling is pretty neat and i like it. what i don't like is the fact that after each ride i can loosen the rear QR and the wheel re-seats itself in the dropouts (QR's are very tightly clamped). this is an indicator that there is a bit too much "monkey motion" going on back there. also indicates that the rear wheel is moving (tilting) under cornering loads. this can affect how well the bike tracks. not really a good thing IMO.
now the Ottrott ST is a different situation. based on my experiences w/ the other two bikes i had Serotta use the new OS "S" bend chainstays. this cured the rear wheel movement problem yet didn't detract from the (rocket feel) at all. the ottrott st is the best riding bike i have ever had the pleasure to ride/own.
moral of the story is be very careful when selecting the the chainstays to go along with the ST carbon stay. be very sure of the ride quality you desire.
hope this info helps.

[vaxn8r]

Michael, I know that CF frames mute out the road buzz better than any other material but I don't know how much it means when included in just the seat stay. I know for a fact that the wheels make considerably more difference to the ride quality than whether or not you have a ST or standard seat stays.

I have a pair of DA/Mavic CXP 30's which will make your CSi feel like a 1984 Cannondale. Not that they are a bad set of wheels, they are fairly aero and rock solid, though a bit heavy by current standards. Anyway, switch your wheels around some more and you'll see what I mean.

Oh, tire choice and pressure makes another big difference, more than any frame material. Last week I put some new Specialized tires on the Calfee and ran the upper recommended pressure--130 psi. It wrecked the ride of the bike. It felt harsh and less connected with the road. I usually run 115-120psi so that really wasn't a big difference in psi but a huge difference in road feel. Same tires in the next ride but 120 psi and I had that buttery smooth ride back.

[Michael Katz]

I made a very serious error in judgement this evening. I did a 30 mile club ride on a borrowed Ottrott ST. Instantaneous power delivery coupled with the smoothness of a hot knife through butter. The description stated elsewhere of a CSI on steroids comes close but does not do the ride justice. The entire ride I pushed the edge of my envelope with greater ease and comfort than any other bike I have ever ridden. Now I want one; oh sh*t!

On a more pactical note, any one have any thoughts on comparing a Legend ST with the Otrott ST? Is it the ST rear or the carbon tubes that rendered me incapable of rational decission making tonight?

[dbrk]

I've had a few wonderful rides on an Ottrott ST and it is a fantastic ride. But I honestly believe that you will find more difference in the ride depending on wheels, tires, and tire pressures than in the ST or non-ST rear. The decision to buy an Ottrott is one that puts passion first and money second. I don't have the same passion for modern technology as I do for oldschool craftsmanship (lugged steel), so I can't be moved to spend the jack. But I understand those who do and appreciate their choice. If you want the ST option for _any_ reason (perceived ride difference, aesthetics, uncompromised last word in design, regret-free all-out-ness, etc) then by all means get it. It makes no sense to pinch when the price is already so incredible. An Ottrott is twice, TWICE, the cost frame and fork than a crafted lugged steel bike: the whole matter is about what you want. No bike I've ever owned rides better than my CSi, Sachs, Rivendell, or Mariposa and that includes slews of carbon, ti, mix and matches and rear ends in zooty this and that. A beautiful fork crown does more for me than an ST rear end. To each his or her own!

dbrk

[Smiley]

I believe it was our own Sandy that coined the phrase CSI on Steriods as a description of his new Ottrott ST as compared to his CSI. Don't buy an Ottrott without the ST stay . I think the Ottrott should be standard issue with the ST stay UNLESS your building a track bike or maybe a TT bike.

[Michael Katz]

Thanks to everyone for the continued input. As I noted in my earlier post, what I'm trying to achieve is a meld of my Spectrum Superlight and my CSI. The Spectrum is the best handling bike I have ever ridden. Dives into corner almost telepathically, holds the line like it's glued to the road but able to change the line on demand without a spec of twitchiness or resistance and very stable on high speed "s" curve descents. With its 1" chainstays and no discernable BB flex, great power delivery on demand. My CSI has the most comfortable upper body positioning I've ever rideen. It also provides the smoothest ride of all. Whether this is due to the steel or Open Pros ( as opposed to ti and Eurus on my Spectrum), I don't know.

I did try to somewhat control for the wheel/tire variable. The Ottrott had Ksyerium Sl's with Michelin tires pumped to a hard 120lbs. My past experience is that the K's feel harsher than the Eurus and certainly much more so than Open Pro's laced with 14/15. I also used my own saddle and seatpost. The ride was at least as smooth if not smoother than my CSI with Open Pro's and GP 3000's. The acceleration and power delivery were the equal to my Spectrum. Couldn't judge the handling since the bike was an off the rack 56 and my body positioning and the frame geometry were materially different from my 53/54ish bikes. What sold me on the ST rear was that on a very bumpy and very fast down hill stretch, it did not feel like there was any rear wheel hop.

So, in a nut shell, it's not that I am wedded to having the latest high tech (in fact I secretly lust for a fully traditional lugged steel frame with 1" steel fork - my CSI is "modernized" with an F2), it's that I really don't know what my real options are to get the "blend" that I want. So far, the Ottrott seems to do it very, very well and I am unaware of how else to achieve it.

[93legendti]

I have a 2002 HC Cross w/ the DKS system and a 1993 Legend Ti w/ the ti stays. Using the same wheels in both bikes, the Legend climbs exceptionally well in and out of the saddle.

The HC is more comfortable and corners better.

[Sandy]

My Ottrott ST rides better than my CSi. Since I purchased the Ottrott, I have ridden it over 2200 miles, and the CSi 10-25 miles. The Ottrott does fit better, I should add.

I do not understand why you consistently and repeatedly state how expensive the Ottrott is. Almost all of the viewers on the forum know that Serottas are expensive bikes, and probably anyone that has heard of the Ottrott knows that it is very expensive. But for some reason, you seem to repeatedly bring up the price of the Ottrott and zooty bikes. I have 2 bikes and you have a magnificent collection of many bikes, but I don't see anyone bringing up the cost of one or the total cost of your bikes. Cycling is a passion for many of us. You do it your way and others do it their way. You say enjoy your passion, but you continually bring up the price of the Ottrott. What is the point? I don't understand it.

The Ottrott is a remarkably expensive bike, but we all know it. Why say it over and over?


Sandy

[dbrk]

My Ottrott ST rides better than my CSi. Since I purchased the Ottrott, I have ridden it over 2200 miles, and the CSi 10-25 miles. The Ottrott does fit better, I should add.

I do not understand why you consistently and repeatedly state how expensive the Ottrott is. Almost all of the viewers on the forum know that Serottas are expensive bikes, and probably anyone that has heard of the Ottrott knows that it is very expensive. But for some reason, you seem to repeatedly bring up the price of the Ottrott and zooty bikes. I have 2 bikes and you have a magnificent collection of many bikes, but I don't see anyone bringing up the cost of one or the total cost of your bikes. Cycling is a passion for many of us. You do it your way and others do it their way. You say enjoy your passion, but you continually bring up the price of the Ottrott. What is the point? I don't understand it.

The Ottrott is a remarkably expensive bike, but we all know it. Why say it over and over?


Sandy

My dear Sandy...Michael asked the question of "value" and I presumed that he was weighing, among many other things, the cost of the ST option vs. its purported benefits, to wit, cost/benefit. That is always a matter of personal choices and preferences. I've logged some Ottrott ST miles and offered an opinion and, you are correct, I am astonished at the monetary cost of an Ottrott frame and perhaps that is why I mention it repeatedly, especially in comparison to the CSi. Let me explain my reasoning, if I may.

The Ottrott is a technological wonder, no doubt, but there is a difference in my mind between technology and craftsmanship, a difference noted long ago by Michael Kone (the first owner of Bicycle Classics) and raised by many others (before and after him). With technology we chase a tail that cannot be caught since it is, by definition, always something advancing (or claiming to). Next year's Ottrott will seek to express technological advances particularly. In comparison, wiith craftsmanship you are searching for values that have endured, methods that have evolved and stood the hard tests of time. I am not suggesting that the Ottrott is bereft of craftsmanship but it is my opinion that the CSi, the epitome of Serotta's craftsmanship, is ooozing it while the Ottrott's own evolution is one of technology advancing as its _primary_ value. The tubes, the ride of the Ottrott are wonderful but to compare welded and bonded titanium and carbon fiber to brazed lugged steel is, well, not much of a comparison in terms of craftsmanship. One could say they are just different expressions of craftsmanship. Okay, there is merit in that, but then we are comparing a fledgling craft (carbon laying, bonding, etc) with the veritable standard of the craft. These are value questions, not just costs but they translate into costs. Interestingly, in bicycles people are willing to pay more for technology (perhaps because it is inherently more expensive?) than for craftsmanship tried and true. This is a fact that strikes me as worth thinking about. It is also a value question, no?

Personally, I rarely seem willing to pay for technology's values but I am always willing to pay the astonishing price of craftsmanship. In my twisted world an expression of craftsmanship surpasses nearly every example of technology's lastest wonders because the former has endured and the later means not to. This is, again, a value judgment. Passion turns in many directions, towards different sorts of values. To understand which values you value can be helpful in making your choices. I've thought alot about what I am willing to pay for and how costs reflect values. At twice the cost of a CSi, the Ottrott reflect's technology's costs and its values. I have no problem with that, but I do think that it is worth pointing out. This is not a put down of those who enjoy, prefer, or value more the costs involved in technology as bicycle craft, but when I see an Ottrott sitting next to a CSi, that is at least part of what I see. I am not in the least asking for those who plunk down their Jacksons to justify their passions but rather to delve more deeply into the values that express their desires. That is at least in part the very point of any contemplation of cost, value, and benefit.

all sorts of goodwill in this, please read it that way,

dbrk

[Climb01742]

i would offer another definition of craftsmanship. not to replace yours, douglas, but stand along side. craftmanship is not simply the grace with which you put the pieces together, but the intelligence and subtly with which you choose which pieces to put together. case in point...my new IF ti CJ. so far, it has blown me away. it is not the work of art that a masterfully crafted lugged steel frame is, but the guys at IF crafted all the exactly right pieces together to create exactly the ride i wanted. the ride i wanted was very complicated, a tough balancing act of seemingly contradictary elements, yet IF nailed it perfectly. their "craft" was bringing together all the right tubes, angles, materials, swags, diameters...perfectly. not craft as beauty -- which is absolutely valid -- but craft as skill. there is craft of the hand and craft of the mind. both are worthy.

[jrisles]

Hi Guys

Two things i would like to pick up here at this point if i may. The first thing is VALUE - or value for money. (I should point out at this stage that i do not own any Serotta's). Most people .. do not have an infinite amount of cash to spend on an infinite number of bikes .. well i don't anyway. So if it is true that an Ottrott is 2x or more the value of a great crafted steel bike then i would certainly have to justify the merits of the outlay. I mean IF i had the cash to purchase an Ottrott i would have to ask the question does it ride twice as better than a CSi?? And from what i have read thus far the answer is clearly that it does not.

An investment in "new technology" must come at a cost. Otherwise how else do these companies get their money back on the R&D?? And if you as a consumer are prepared to spend your money on the latest technology then so be it. Value for money is a concept often overlooked when we purchase anything. And of course this can only come from comparisons of like products.

When i first enquired about Serrotta here in Australia i spoke to the rep in the Melbourne store and we started to yak about steel frames as i was definitely most interested in looking at the purchase of a CSi. He didn't have a CSi in stock but he did have a Coeur d'Acier in stock. I then asked him the merits of having Carbon in the rear stays and after he gave me his explaination of why carbon is a factor worth considering .. i thought to myself how similar these "Carbon" properties were to steel properties. I mean most sites that i have been onto, that express the merits of a steel frame bicycle, mention the damping effects of steel .. mention how smooth a ride a steel framed bicycle provides. I mean it would appear that the carbon pundits have taken the ride description of carbon from the Steel manufacturers and made it into their own!! I mean there is no doubt that some Carbon does look good. But when i consider forking out so much money on a bike that costs 2x more than any bike that is also worthy of consideration .. one does have to stop and think about it.

Just my two cents worth.

cheers
jeff
Brisbane, Australia

[Michael Katz]

Yesterday I took the plunge and ordered an Ottrott ST. I did so not because of a conclusion based on comparative value but because of a conclusion that the Ottrott offered the best available opportunity to achieve exactly the ride I want. Therein lies the "value" for me. I think that attempting to measure in terms of whether the Ottrott will be "twice" as good as my CSI or "one and a half" times as good as my Spectrum Superlight misses the mark. Those are really not quantifiable comparisons and how in the world do you measure them? In any event, in the world of high end bikes, the differences in ride, characteristics and qualities become far more subtle and incremental than differences in cost.

For me this has been an evolutionary process. In my riding lifetime I have owned 4 high end bikes and soon to be a fifth. Each has given me an opportunity to better understand who I am as a rider, what I desire out of a bike, and the creative process of designing and building a bike to achieve those goals. My current bikes, the CSI and Spectrum, were both built with the same performance/ride characteristics in mind but with 2 different visions of how to achieve them. I ended up with 2 bikes that are similar in some respects but also very different in others because a tig welded ti frame is going to achieve my desires for handling, climbing, sprinting and vibration absorption with a very different feel than a lugged steel frame. Each bike excells in meeting certain of my goals better than the other.

I went into this process looking for a way to meld the best ride and performance qualities of both bikes into one. After riding the Ottrott, I concluded that it provided me with the best opprtunity to do so from any other bike I have been exposed to and which is available in my area. Is it incredibly expensive - sure it is. But as my wife commented to me, when compared to the cost of years of mental health therapy that bike riding substitutes for, it begins to look like a bargain! In any event, if the Ottrott achieves my vision, then it will be worth the price - I will have gotten my "value".

[tch]

Dbrk, I'm not much of a back-slapper, but your comments about technology vs. craftsmanship are really insightful and worth considering. I don't mean to say (as I think you don't) that one value is necessarily "right", but you have given me a new perspective and something to think about -- especially the insight that technology is necessarily ephemeral and craftsmanship is essentially enduring. Immediately, it would seem to me that this same conflict of values is applicable in many arenas. I'm not sure exactly where I sit on this spectrum of choices, (I suspect, at least for much of my tool-using life, closer to valuing technology) but thanks for illuminating the situation.

[Climb01742]

a given technology might well be ephemeral, but any genuine progress gained isn't. take steels used in bike tubing. the steels first used my ugo derosa in the 50s and 60s vs the steels used now by dario pegoretti. steel has progressed. rubber technologies are another example. beyond cycling, virtually every area of life -- from medicine to computers -- technologies come and go, but in most instances, the line of progress is upward. i'm not saying we should chase or embrace all new technologies, or that all progress is good. but would i rather ride an 18 or 19 lbs lugged steel frame or a 25 lbs one riding on wooden rims?

[MGS9500]

As they say, ask the man who has both.

I have a custom Spectrum Ultralight which I've ridden for years. This year I got the Legend with S and S couplers but with the ST rear.

The Spectrum is like a bullet, that is tight, fast, and accelerates without hesitation.

The Legend tracks dead on, is more comfortable on the long ride, and for whatever reason, the rear seems to track with less skitishness. Call it the ST effect, but the tires, wheels and components are identical on each bike.

When Ben came to Cincinnati, I asked his builder about the myth of the ST effect. They assured me that the effect was real. Subtle flex in the tube allows absorption of road chatter which improves handling and makes for a smoother ride.

I'm a believer.

The S and S couplers have zero effect on the ride.

[Andreu]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works here.
I am a firm believer that craftsmen and art is worth paying for...of course this is a question of aesthetics so what floats my boat isn't to everyone's taste ...e.g. I don't like sloping TTs for example because they make the bike look like a clown's bike but I am not arguing about questions of taste.
I am arguing about company hype...be careful with getting carried away with this hype. I worked in the Scotch Whisky industry (hic!) for a few years and there are craftsmen in that industry who can blend a damned good scotch whisky. There is also a lot of BS on the bottle/carton which has been made up by a marketing/advertising person.
The hype on the Rudy Project glasses advert makes me smile every time I read it (it didn't stop me buying them after a few good recommendations from this forum). I would suggest that our good friends in the cycle frame building industry are no different and up to the same trick.
A

[Sandy]

My purchase of the Ottrott ST (and the CSi) was a decision based on how the Ottrott rode, compared to other bikes that I have ridden, plain and simple. It had nothing to do with aesthetics, technology, ways of joining tubes, nor cost, image, status, my weight, age, or looks (damn good).

I love the stability at speed and responsiveness to pedal input of all Serottas, especially the Ottrott ST.

I bought the Ottrott because of how it rides. I didn't care much about anything else, except Serotta's reputation as a frame builder.


Sandy

[Kevin]

I can't believe that I am saying this, but I agree with Sandy. Buy the Ottrott for the ride.

Kevin

[Sandy]

We ride it for the ride.

Sandy

[bags27]

I write this even though I ride a Spectrum Ti that I adore beyond expression. Yesterday, I did (thanks again, Chuck!) the 300 Km Boston brevet with some 40 other riders. These are (and are designed to be) very tough rides, over irregular New England roads, and the participants train to increase to the 400, 600, and 1200 Km rides that put us in the saddle for as long as 90 hours. No group of riders thinks more about the mix of comfort, handling, climbing, acceleration, and dependability than randonneurs. And no group knows more about bikes and their technologies.

I would say that 90% of the riders at any given brevet ride steel.

[Smiley]

Bags , they ride steel with rack mounts to be self supported and they ride BROOKS cause they know a good thing when they feel it too. Yes you are indeed correct that your merry group of really long distance guys and gals are a breed apart. Too Tall is one of you guys and he rides Ti though. Heck he'll ride anything he's that good.