Disc brakes and tubeless tires

[bikinchris]

I don't understand the draw of tubeless. I don't get flats with my bikes until the tires are threadbare and I don't replace it when I should. I NEVER add sealant.

I am not afraid of setting up disc brakes. Yes, there is a learning curve. The learning curve for disc brakes is about as hard as learning to set up cantilever brakes.

[joosttx]

If you were a person who got flats would understand the draw of tubeless tires?

Once installed disc brakes are far easier to maintain, consistantly more predictable and have better stopping power.

[ptourkin]

Maybe you are only talking about road tubeless. After a recent bikepacking trip to New Mexico, my friend and I each pulled over 20 goat heads out of our tires. We didn't stop once to add air in over 200 miles of riding. Replicate that with tubes.

[Tony]

I don't understand the draw of tubeless. I don't get flats with my bikes until the tires are threadbare and I don't replace it when I should. I NEVER add sealant.

I am not afraid of setting up disc brakes. Yes, there is a learning curve. The learning curve for disc brakes is about as hard as learning to set up cantilever brakes.

For mtbing its a must, it really is a "game changer" For road I haven't gone the tubeless route as I don't get many flats where i ride.

Disc brakes are much easier to set up than cantilever and WAY more braking power!

[R3awak3n]

I rather set up some hydro discs than cantis any day of the week. And then you get the benefit of an actually very good braking system.

Tubeless though can suck to setup if you don’t have a compressor/ just got a bad rim/tire combo.


Also, cable discs? No thanks

[MikeD]

Once installed disc brakes are far easier to maintain, consistantly more predictable and have better stopping power.


Yep, that's the myth being perpetrated.

[oldpotatoe]

For mtbing its a must, it really is a "game changer" For road I haven't gone the tubeless route as I don't get many flats where i ride.

Disc brakes are much easier to set up than cantilever and WAY more braking power!

Hydraulic? When you start with loose hoses, a bottle of fluid, a set of calipers/rotors, bleed kit and a bike frame?

:eek:

[ptourkin]

Hydraulic? When you start with loose hoses, a bottle of fluid, a set of calipers/rotors, bleed kit and a bike frame?

:eek:

XT brakes come pre-bled and connected. Trimming the cables and reinserting the barb takes less than 5 minutes. So does bleeding them, when you need to.

[oldpotatoe]

XT brakes come pre-bled and connected. Trimming the cables and reinserting the barb takes less than 5 minutes. So does bleeding them, when you need to.

I don't remember any canti brakes coming with cables attached:)..ya know. apples to apples..I'd just say, box of parts and a bike frame, cantis are a 'little' easer to install and adjust than wet disc brakes. IMHO..NOT saying wet discs are some sort of mechanical project but discs aren't 'much easier' to setup than cantis, IMHO.

[Tony]

I don't remember any canti brakes coming with cables attached:)..ya know. apples to apples..I'd just say, box of parts and a bike frame, cantis are a 'little' easer to install and adjust than wet disc brakes. IMHO..NOT saying wet discs are some sort of mechanical project but discs aren't 'much easier' to setup than cantis, IMHO.

If you look at it that way Yes, more complicated than canti.

[veloduffer]

Isn’t something like the TRP HY/RD brakes the best of both worlds - cable actuated with hydraulic power? I like mine over mechanical for gravel. Not sure how’d we’ll they’d work for full-on mtb


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[kppolich]

I used to be anti disc brakes & anti tubeless.

Now I have a set of road training wheels (HED Belgium+ setup tubeless with Schwalbe Pro1 700x25s and Orange sealant). They have been a godsend here in Milwaukee where the roads are crap and covered with broken glass. I still race on Latex Tubes & GP4000SIIs.

Disc:
I raced and trained for CycloCross on a steel single speed Canti bike with tubed clinchers, and quick release wheels. Man, it was fun to beat guys on $5,000 carbon bikes with hydro discs and tubulars. Yes the discs do stop better in all conditions, they aren't easier to setup than my canti's and I hate adjusting them. But since they were setup correctly the first time, I haven't had to adjust them since.

I recently moved to a bike with thru axles, hyrdro flat mount brakes, and tubeless wheels. Man! The braking consistency itself is worth it. Also, riding the rough single track on the tubeless wheels (i9 Ultralight 234/MXP tubeless/Stans sealant) has been awesome. Zero flats compared to almost 2x a week flats on my clincher wheels has been awesome. No more worrying about thorns, pinch flats, etc.

Tubeless has also been nice for cyclocross for me because I can still run low pressure. 26F/24R with no burping. I could also run those same pressures on my clincher bike with latex tubes, but the side walls would sometime give out.

There are alot of factors that come in with tubeless. Racing vs riding, pressure vs. rider weight, and a whole lot more. I too was concerned that they would be a pain to setup. Youtube and some dish soap made that easy and I have been riding worry-free every since.

-KP

[joosttx]

Yep, that's the myth being perpetrated.

#troll

[joosttx]

Hydraulic? When you start with loose hoses, a bottle of fluid, a set of calipers/rotors, bleed kit and a bike frame?

:eek:

You pay someone to do that. The rest is easy peasy.

[PaMtbRider]

Isn’t something like the TRP HY/RD brakes the best of both worlds - cable actuated with hydraulic power? I like mine over mechanical for gravel. Not sure how’d we’ll they’d work for full-on mtb


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Or all the disadvantages of a cable without the benefit of full hydraulics. I've never personally tried them but have heard mixed reviews at best.

[oldpotatoe]

You pay someone to do that. The rest is easy peasy.

I guess the easiest way to set up anything is to plunk down the box 'o parts and hand the person the frameset and go have a long lunch..and then plunk down that credit card..:) Just riding a bike is pretty easy compared to building a bike, disc brake or no. :)

[joosttx]

I guess the easiest way to set up anything is to plunk down the box 'o parts and hand the person the frameset and go have a long lunch..and then plunk down that credit card..:) Just riding a bike is pretty easy compared to building a bike, disc brake or no. :)

Just trying to support the LBS! I agree that bleeding hoses and all that is a PIA. But once that is setup maintenance on disc brakes is easy.

[oldpotatoe]

Just trying to support the LBS! I agree that bleeding hoses and all that is a PIA. But once that is setup maintenance on disc brakes is easy.

Understand but once set up, caliper, disc or canti..none need more than pads, 'maintenance' on any bike brake is pretty easy.

[yinzerniner]

For both hydraulic disc brakes and mid- to high-pressure tubeless (ie cross, road, gravel) the initial setup and learning curve are a PAIN, but the maintenance and adjustment afterwards is basically non-existant.

Conversely, for cable canti/rim brakes and mid- to high-pressure tubed, the initial setup and learning curve are simple, but the maintenance and adjustment are the worst especially if you have to do it on the road/course/trail.

Different strokes for different folks, but the myths being perpetuated by others should just stop while honest conversation about the benefits and weaknesses of each system.

But yes, cable actuated disc brakes are basically the worst of both worlds.

[R3awak3n]

Hydraulic? When you start with loose hoses, a bottle of fluid, a set of calipers/rotors, bleed kit and a bike frame?

:eek:

I have to say, it was actually not that bad to set up my potenza hydro. First time doing it and I felt like pro.... seriously, brakes amazing and better than my shimano did which was done by the LBS.

Sure since first time took a bit long (like really long lol, but I was going for perfection). And I needed a few tools but in the end I got that its not that bad to bleed and install discs... but sure, it takes longer and more involved that rim brakes, still cantis are annoying.

[MikeD]

#troll


I thought you were the troll, and I took the bait?

Maintenance on disc brakes easier? Buwahahahahah! Not on a more complex system when you have problems with sticky pistons, rubbing pads, warped rotors, bleeding and flushing the fluid, air and moisture in the brake fluid, pad squeel, leaks, pad fade, boiling brake fluid; not to mention the added cost, a heavier bike and frame, no braking advantage in dry conditions... Need I go on?

Ho hum. This will quickly degenerate into another disc vs. rim brake threads.

[ptourkin]

Bleeding modern Shimano hydro brakes is just a matter of a funnel and a plug. I am not a mechanical wizard and I installed a new set in minutes, including the internal routing. I'm not sure what other horrors people are imagining, but there is really nothing to it. Fresh rotors on new brakes should not be a hassle (or maybe I'm just spoiled by those wild thru axles and boost hubs.)

[Tony]

I thought you were the troll, and I took the bait?

Maintenance on disc brakes easier? Buwahahahahah! Not on a more complex system when you have problems with sticky pistons, rubbing pads, warped rotors, bleeding and flushing the fluid, air and moisture in the brake fluid, pad squeel, leaks, pad fade, boiling brake fluid; not to mention the added cost, a heavier bike and frame, no braking advantage in dry conditions... Need I go on?

Ho hum. This will quickly degenerate into another disc vs. rim brake threads.

That's an ugly picture you painted here with this horror story of disc brakes.
Please go on, entertaining!

[macaroon]

Disc brakes and tubeless tyres are just a luck of the draw.

Stick with rim brakes and innertubes if you want mature technology.

[bshell]

Hahahah, so much for honest conversation ("cable disc -the worst of both worlds").

Maybe I got the only four good calipers made 15 years ago but somehow my cable discs have been fantastic. I repeatedly hear how much they must suck but I can't think of a reason to change them out (Though I am tempted by the Paul Klamper...).

I know Joostx and MikeD are talking about a hydraulic system(grabbing my popcorn) but happily, I have experienced zero of what MikeD has laid out below..Like, not one thing. Ever.

"when you have problems with sticky pistons, rubbing pads, warped rotors, bleeding and flushing the fluid, air and moisture in the brake fluid, pad squeel, leaks, pad fade, boiling brake fluid; not to mention the added cost"

[bikinchris]

Yes, I was thinking mostly about road tubeless. Personally, I don't have a problem with MTB tubeless. THEY also don't have a problem with discs.

As for setting up disc brakes and maintaining them, I could tell you horror stories about setting up certain brands of cantilevers and getting them to center and trying to set up hangers etc. especially on odd sized bikes.
I have also had disc brakes which took several tries to get bled correctly, but that was a learning curve, not a design problem.

[R3awak3n]

I thought you were the troll, and I took the bait?

Maintenance on disc brakes easier? Buwahahahahah! Not on a more complex system when you have problems with sticky pistons, rubbing pads, warped rotors, bleeding and flushing the fluid, air and moisture in the brake fluid, pad squeel, leaks, pad fade, boiling brake fluid; not to mention the added cost, a heavier bike and frame, no braking advantage in dry conditions... Need I go on?

Ho hum. This will quickly degenerate into another disc vs. rim brake threads.

where is the loling emoji.

but yeah this is already a disc vs rim thread but the only thing you got right is that they are heavier, disc frames are plenty light now. They definitely a bit more work to maintain but on a properly maintained DB system there should not be any problems... Ok, your rotors warp, get the tool, 10 second job.... the other problems are not really problems everyone have all the time...

Also add the benefit of better braking, more modulation, more predictable, wet braking is not even comparable, rims will last you forever, carbon rims won't delaminate.

[MikeD]

That's an ugly picture you painted here with this horror story of disc brakes.

Please go on, entertaining!


Well, as my doctor said, there's two kinds of people, those with back problems and those that will have back problems. Same with disc brake owners, those that have problems and those that will. YMMV


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[joosttx]

I thought you were the troll, and I took the bait?

Maintenance on disc brakes easier? Buwahahahahah! Not on a more complex system when you have problems with sticky pistons, rubbing pads, warped rotors, bleeding and flushing the fluid, air and moisture in the brake fluid, pad squeel, leaks, pad fade, boiling brake fluid; not to mention the added cost, a heavier bike and frame, no braking advantage in dry conditions... Need I go on?

Ho hum. This will quickly degenerate into another disc vs. rim brake threads.

8000+ miles on two bikes combined and I never have had any of the issues you are writing about. Not
Saying they don’t happen. That’s why I am surprise to read this

[benb]

Cantis/Mini-Vs:

- Easy to install
- A lifetime to set up for good performance
- Get to readjust them every couple rides to keep the performing just right
- Lots of pad replacement


Hydro setup:
- More work to install, more tools to buy to do it right/do it without cursing
- Great performance right away as long as you are semi-competent with the install + bleed (bleeding isn't even always necessary on some that come pre-bled)
- Clean em off with alcohol once in a while
- Replace pads about 1/10th as often

That's my experience.. I've been on hydro discs on my MTB for about 13 seasons.

But I hear if you ride road hydro disc instead of in the dirt the pads melt and start a fire on a 10% 1/2 mile down grade and everything fouls up really fast if there's even a spec of dirt out on the road. And the hoses dissolve in the rain.

I don't get it.. no one even talks about this on mountain bikes anymore.

[MikeD]

8000+ miles on two bikes combined and I never have had any of the issues you are writing about. Not
Saying they don’t happen. That’s why I am surprise to read this


I'm going into the garage right now to troubleshoot a rubbing disc brake on my mountain bike; seriously. I suspect my ABP pivots have loosened up because I've aligned the caliper twice already and that did not fix the occasional rubbing/squeaking issue.

[Gummee]

I don't remember any canti brakes coming with cables attached:)..ya know. apples to apples..I'd just say, box of parts and a bike frame, cantis are a 'little' easer to install and adjust than wet disc brakes. IMHO..NOT saying wet discs are some sort of mechanical project but discs aren't 'much easier' to setup than cantis, IMHO.

I'm with you. From a box o parts to a complete bike, I'd much rather set up rim brakes than cable-actuated discs or full hydros. Cable-actuated brakes are better than having to bleed out a whole system, but can be fiddly to center.

M

[benb]

The thing that drives me nuts about the constant fiddling with Cantis and Mini-Vs is the fact that bog standard Shimano/Campy/SRAM road dual pivot calipers are near maintenance free... surely someone could have come up with a better design caliper brake that would have worked for us on the gravel bikes and such.

While my next gravel/all condition/whatever bike will have hydraulic discs I don't really necessarily think I need them. I mostly appreciate them on the MTB in very wet/muddy conditions and descending things that are steeper than I'd feel comfortable descending on a drop bar bike... it's just be nice if someone had made "big tire" cable operated caliper brakes that worked as well as small tire caliper brakes.

It's like they took the discs cause they were the easy way out since they'd already been built for MTB.

[sparky33]

Is it 2018?

Just checking.

[Kirk007]

I'll be a bit of a contrarian. I have both, ride both. Literally spent hours two weekends ago setting up some 650B x 47 tubeless and some big 2.5/2.4 29 tires.

The 650bs were relatively easy but still needed a Schwalbe tire booster inflator. The 29er tires were impossible even with the booster. Sorry but what a pita to have to take a wheel to the LBS just to get a tire mounted.

And I've had multiple road tubeless - some mount with a floor pump, others don't. Again, a PITA especially if traveling and need to change tires unless you just give up and stick in a tube, at which point, what is the point? Tubulars ride better. Good clinchers and tubes ride just as well - to me.

Yes once up and running tubeless are painless until they're not, like if you are on the side of the road on a super hot or super wet day and wrestling to get those oh so tight beads off the tubeless rims, and in some areas of the country they are a huge improvement, perhaps moving into necessity category, but in the Pac NW we don't have goatheads, I don't ride through industrial war zones, I pay attention to my tire pressures. I really don't need what they're offering.

Funny when I went to the LBS bitching about mounting those tubeless tires to the owner (and picking up some back up tubes) the owner, a former pro mechanic got all excited saying yes, another one has seen the light - tubeless tires are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist where we live.

As to discs. Really nice in the winter in the wet, on gravel and mountain bikes. Absolutely not necessary, for me, otherwise on a road bike. Rim brakes are lighter, simpler, modulate just fine for me and most importantly stop/slow me just fine on Alpine passes. I think discs on a road bike may offer some peace of mind/reassurance to riders particularly if that's what they are familiar with. When riding my road bike with discs I sometimes feel like I can wait longer before scrubbing speed entering a corner, until I do it with a rim braked bike and remind myself that yeah its rider technique not the brake that matters most. Downsides to discs are, to me minor but not zero. With discs, every time I switch wheels I end up having to loosen the calipers and readjust. Not a big deal, but a step I don't have to do with rim brakes. And warped discs? Yep get out the tool and tweak but it takes a lot longer than recentering a rim brake or easing out the space between pads. Now cantis, yeah I think they're a distant 3rd.

Tubeless and discs have their time and place, which is why I have bikes with them. But their not the answer to every need.

[bikinchris]

The biggest problem with disc brakes are that there is no standard for disc mounting. Theoretically speaking, you can take wheels from different manufacturers and the shifting will be the same. Note neutral support at races swapping wheels.

But with disc brakes two different model hubs from the same company can have discs in a different place.

There could be sliding calipers that self center. Or a real standard where the disc is an exact distance from the end of the hub like on cassettes.

[fogrider]

I've set up a hydo disc from parts...lots to go wrong...but they are powerful and for anything that will see dirt, disc are the way to go...that said, I would still ride a good bike with mini Vs...I'm not going anywhere near canti's. tubeless, again is great for anything that will see dirt and rough roads. for good roads, I'm riding deep section tubulars!

[joosttx]

For the road. I rather have calipers and 35mm Bora Ultra 2 than any disc brake wheel

[oldpotatoe]

I'll be a bit of a contrarian. I have both, ride both. Literally spent hours two weekends ago setting up some 650B x 47 tubeless and some big 2.5/2.4 29 tires.

The 650bs were relatively easy but still needed a Schwalbe tire booster inflator. The 29er tires were impossible even with the booster. Sorry but what a pita to have to take a wheel to the LBS just to get a tire mounted.

And I've had multiple road tubeless - some mount with a floor pump, others don't. Again, a PITA especially if traveling and need to change tires unless you just give up and stick in a tube, at which point, what is the point? Tubulars ride better. Good clinchers and tubes ride just as well - to me.

Yes once up and running tubeless are painless until they're not, like if you are on the side of the road on a super hot or super wet day and wrestling to get those oh so tight beads off the tubeless rims, and in some areas of the country they are a huge improvement, perhaps moving into necessity category, but in the Pac NW we don't have goatheads, I don't ride through industrial war zones, I pay attention to my tire pressures. I really don't need what they're offering.

Funny when I went to the LBS bitching about mounting those tubeless tires to the owner (and picking up some back up tubes) the owner, a former pro mechanic got all excited saying yes, another one has seen the light - tubeless tires are an answer to a problem that doesn't exist where we live.

As to discs. Really nice in the winter in the wet, on gravel and mountain bikes. Absolutely not necessary, for me, otherwise on a road bike. Rim brakes are lighter, simpler, modulate just fine for me and most importantly stop/slow me just fine on Alpine passes. I think discs on a road bike may offer some peace of mind/reassurance to riders particularly if that's what they are familiar with. When riding my road bike with discs I sometimes feel like I can wait longer before scrubbing speed entering a corner, until I do it with a rim braked bike and remind myself that yeah its rider technique not the brake that matters most. Downsides to discs are, to me minor but not zero. With discs, every time I switch wheels I end up having to loosen the calipers and readjust. Not a big deal, but a step I don't have to do with rim brakes. And warped discs? Yep get out the tool and tweak but it takes a lot longer than recentering a rim brake or easing out the space between pads. Now cantis, yeah I think they're a distant 3rd.

Tubeless and discs have their time and place, which is why I have bikes with them. But their not the answer to every need.

Great post..reality, what a concept..:)

[avalonracing]

Tubeless road tires are great unless you live where the state flower should be changed to the Glass Shard. #redneckrecycling

[AngryScientist]

some people get prematurely annoyed by threads like this, but personally, i dont see anything wrong with debating even an old worn topic, since this is a bike forum and all :)

i honestly dont think anyone here is trolling, or purposely spreading false information or "lies" - most everyone is informed by their own experiences, and see the equipment world through their own oakleys. nothing wrong with that, and it's generally interesting to read differing opinions and takes on a subject.

it would be boring if there was a black and white answer to every question that worked for everyone. obviously with regard to disc and tubeless, there is no universal answer.

the good news is with bicycles, there really arent too many dead WRONG answers. most of us ride for fun and enjoyment, and really, there is no reason why anyone needs the best equipment for the task at hand.

if racing at a high level, or if the ultimate goal is top performance and efficiency - then i concede that the most modern, best kit is likely the right answer, but for the rest of us - no one should feel compelled to go one way or another with any of these "new" technologies, ride what you want:)

those are my morning train ride musings on the topic!

[MikeD]

To those that think hydraulic disc systems are maintenance free (other than pad replacement), you should know that the brake fluid should be periodically flushed and bled, most say on an annual basis, because water vapor gets in through the seals and depresses the boiling point of the brake fluid as a result. If the brake fluid boils you will lose your brakes. You also get rid of any air that leaked in and replace the fluid that leaked out. Seals on these systems are not perfect. Bleeding brakes can be a PITA (maybe not for bike shop employees that do this stuff all the time).

[bikinchris]

To those that think hydraulic disc systems are maintenance free (other than pad replacement), you should know that the brake fluid should be periodically flushed and bled, most say on an annual basis, because water vapor gets in through the seals and depresses the boiling point of the brake fluid as a result. If the brake fluid boils you will lose your brakes. You also get rid of any air that leaked in and replace the fluid that leaked out. Seals on these systems are not perfect. Bleeding brakes can be a PITA (maybe not for bike shop employees that do this stuff all the time).

Brakes that use mineral oil don't have to contend with water. Only DOT fluid absorbs water. Bleeding is a skill. It can be learned.

[MikeD]

Brakes that use mineral oil don't have to contend with water. Only DOT fluid absorbs water. Bleeding is a skill. It can be learned.


Oh yes they do! In fact water pools at the worst, lowest point point, in the caliper where it can boil. DOT fluid disperses water throughout the system. Mineral oil is worse with respect to water intrusion.

Doing an operation only once a year, it's hard to be proficient at it.

[dem]

I love these threads since I own cantis, shimano rim brakes, weenie rim brakes, and hydro disc :)

I see no reason to bleed mineral oil based shimano disc calipers unless they get squishy. I have 3 seasons and 6000+ insanely abusive miles on mine, with no change in lever action.

It is a sealed system, if there is any intrusion, you'll notice it. The performance envelope of disc on bicycles is so far beyond intended use vs. a car or motorcycle, it's just not a thing I worry about.

(my main complaint is consumbles.. because I am so abusive, I burn through pads in <750 miles and rotors are past the wear point <1500 miles.)