Track crank question

[Jack Brunk]

Staying on the fixed geared theme, what are the best track cranks to put on my new frame?



Jack

[Grant McLean]

The Dura Ace 7710 track cranks use the Octilink bb, which is sealed.
So is the Campy track crank, it's got a 111mm bb that looks like the
regular record one.

All of the classic square taper japanese track cranks from sugino, suntour,
and shimano use a 109mm bottom bracket that is symetrical. One of those
with a phil wood bb should do well in the elements. Most of the loose ball
bb's used on the track don't have seals, not so practical on the road.

g

[justinf]

I like the Sugino 75, very nice without getting into the crazy bling stuff.

[Jack Brunk]

Justin, Grant,

If I want bling, what is the king of bling and where can I find it?


J

[Grant McLean]

Justin, Grant,

If I want bling, what is the king of bling and where can I find it?


J

The general feeling is that the Dura Ace is best engineered, it's stiff and
trouble free. The sugino "grand mighty" is a square taper bb style crank
that is cold forged in a multi-multi-multi step process. These cranks are
easily available to shops who order from "euro-asia imports". It's pretty
blingy. There are super high end rings out there, but outdoors, it's not really
practical. The Dura ace ring also looks great on the grand mighty crank too.

http://www.euroasiaimports.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=656&idproduct=392

g

[sbornia]

If I want bling, what is the king of bling and where can I find it?

J

The Campy track crank is pretty bling. This site has lots of good info about track components: http://businesscycles.com/trcomp.htm

[Samster]

i'm using sugino 75 (with a zen ring) on one bike and campy pista on the other.

i like sugino because it's a traditional bb that you can take apart, grease up, clean, etc.

but the campy looks better imo.

superficial fool that i am, i vote campy record pista 165mm.

[coylifut]

the campy one sure is purty. the sugino grand mighty is tough looking in an old school track kind of way.

[Jack Brunk]

Do they make campy pista's in 172.5mm? I can't seem to find anything larger than 170mm.

J

[dbrk]

For a look at the Sugino Grand Mighty bling on over to my Nagasawa singler: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7791&highlight=nagasawa

NJS stuff is so cool that nothing still made even comes close, imhoyoatmoclko. You have to go back to Maxi-car hubs to get stuff this cool and those bad boys are no more.

Of course, there is a great tradition of building fixies on the cheap and with all cobbled bits, adding a whole'nohter dimension of coolness.

db[ling]rk

[11.4]

Campy isn't as stiff and the finish is more susceptible to corrosion marks than the DA or Sugino. You don't see as much Campy around tracks any longer -- almost everyone is on Dura Ace. The Sugino Grand Mighty's gold anodizing actually keeps it from showing corrosion and is super-durable, but the DA does just fine. Of them all, the DA is the stiffest. The knock a few years ago on the DA was that the bottom bracket had a fair amount of seal friction, but that's been addressed and you can always use (and regularly maintain) the newest release of the DA 7700 road bottom bracket for lower friction. It never was a fair criticism anyway, because under load the seals weren't an issue. Note that all DA bottom brackets are interchangeable as to size -- the NJS DA track 7710 BB, the 7700 DA road, and the 6500 Ultegra road. The Ultegra is the best for road use because it's the best sealed of the bunch. The Dura Ace chainring bolts are much nicer than any of the others, by the way, so at least swap out for them if you go to another crankset. Almost all 1/8" chainrings are interchangeable (i.e., 144 BCD; there are a few 130 BCD ones out there such as Stronglight and one of the TA versions) so you don't have to match chainring brand to the cranks. Grant likes black chainrings, and they're pretty hot. I just like to go for the roundest ones possible, which are either DA 7710's (the newest version) or Zen's (the real track Zen's, not the black messenger ones). Most chainrings somehow aren't particularly round. If you're interested in a NOS black DA 44 tooth 1/8" ring, let me know. I have a couple I snagged before they disappeared from the earth. It's an ideal size for road use.

[11.4]

Oh and Jack, a lot of the fixie world considers an NJS seal to be significant extra bling. DA and Sugino carry it; Campy (except in rare instances) does not. Now if you're using a threadless stem, or road bars, or ergo bars, or any saddle except a Kashimax 5-Star, or almost any road tubular, or any road clincher, or Mavic rims, or DT spokes, or a Thomson seatpost, or a brake, then you aren't NJS any longer. A pure NJS bike is pretty hard to do -- the spokes, tires, and saddle are where most people give up on it, because the spokes are hard to get, the tires are nice but expensive, and the NJS saddles are godawful uncomfortable. But NJS definitely gives bling factor if you show up wherever there might be messengers, or fixie fanatics, or Grant or Atmo (who are both NJS addicts).

[dbrk]

Oh and Jack, a lot of the fixie world considers an NJS seal to be significant extra bling....snip...Now if you're using a threadless stem, or road bars, or ergo bars, or any saddle except a Kashimax 5-Star, or almost any road tubular, or any road clincher, or Mavic rims, or DT spokes, or a Thomson seatpost, or a brake, then you aren't NJS any longer. A pure NJS bike is pretty hard to do -- the spokes, tires, and saddle are where most people give up on it, because the spokes are hard to get, the tires are nice but expensive, and the NJS saddles are godawful uncomfortable. But NJS definitely gives bling factor if you show up wherever there might be messengers, or fixie fanatics, or Grant or Atmo (who are both NJS addicts).

Spot on. NJS is indeed hard to do and in my case, since I was looking for a singler not a fix that met Keirin standards, I made a slew of "compromises" though I did go for that godawful uncomfortable saddle, which---go figure---I kinda' like. I especially opted out of the wheels and tires that are required to meet the regulations. I just wanted something that was sturdier for the street. I confess my Nagasawa goes out on sunny days. For all others I ride a 650B single speed Mariposa when I get the urge to be gearless.

dbrk

[Jack Brunk]

You guys are awesome. I just purchased a pair of new limited edition Suzue gold hubs in 32 hole. Now I want a set of Sugino 75 grand mighty in 172.5mm. Any idea where to get them? I'll check back tomorrow am. Thanks for your knowledge.


Jack

[11.4]

They're at all the usual places. The big web track equipment dealer is John Dacey at www.businesscycles.com. He's 100% honest and forthcoming with his expertise. I also would strongly recommend www.bike-central.com in Portland. They are major supporters of track racing and know the stuff extremely well. They also are a home to many of the messengers and NJS fanatics in Portland (both of the owners, Jen and Dean, own Nagasawas and it's almost the only place I know that usually has a Nagasawa track frame hanging for sale on the wall). Occasionally a bit surly, but don't let that bother you. Their web site has only a small fraction of what they carry, and they are one of the shops closest to Euro-Asia, who imports most of this stuff. If you're USCF or OBRA, you get 10% off. If you go in locally, there's no sales tax in Portland and you still can get the 10%. Very good people.

Are your hubs the sealed bearing or the loose bearing version? Most of what's out there are sealed bearing, but the hardware in the loose bearing ones is a tad nicer and, if you get 36 hole, it's also NJS. If you want to go NJS, remember it only allows 36-spoke wheels.

[11.4]

One last thing. Are you sure you want a 172.5 track crank on a fixie? Usually you go shorter and even a 170 is a long track crank. Those long cranks increase the likelihood of hitting ground on a turn or around obstacles, plus the idea is to have greater snap and spin, not to be pushing a big gear with a lever. Only in events like pursuit do you tend to find such big gears used. On road fixies, 165 mm is the length I see perhaps 75-80 percent of the time, regardless of rider size.

One other thing, beware of too much gold on a bike. A guy did this a while ago with a copper-colored Nagasawa -- every piece of alloy on the bike was gold, but none of it matches properly. It looked pretty bad and also very vain. You can get gold anodized Nitto bars, stems, and seatposts, MKS pedals, the hubs of course, and the Grand Mighty cranks and Gigas rings, but at that point it just looks like too much money and too garish. Think of a guy dressed head to toe in red Assos winter kit and you get what I mean.

[Jack Brunk]

I had no clue about the crank length on a fixie. Should I use a 165 or 170 as I use 172.5 on my road bike.



Jack

[Lunar Probe]

I had no clue about the crank length on a fixie. Should I use a 165 or 170 as I use 172.5 on my road bike.



Jack

The main issue is crank/pedal clearance while turning, since you cannot position the low side at will. I run 170mm on a frame with 68mm BB drop with no problems, but adapt a more conservative cornering style.

[bigman]

I have a couple of fixed gear bikes - they are not track rigs - a Lemond Fillmore with 175's, a converted Basso with 170's and a Gunnar Street Dog with 172.5's. The gearing is slightly different on the bikes so my impressions can be somewhat skewed. I typically ride 175's - the 170's are definitely to short for me - I do feel the difference from the 172.5's to the 175's but sometimes when approaching a steep climb I like the shorter spin, most times I wish they were all 175's. Finding a specific 175 single ring crankest is not so simple - only the bontrager crank on the Fillmore is specific for this use. the other cranks are an Ultegra and a 7400 series D'ace - check your chainring bolts often - they can loosen up quickly when riding fixed.

If you are using this as a road rig I would recomend going with the size you usually ride, unless the BB clearance is such that the crank arms could hit the ground onm a turn.

Hope this helps. BTW not sure understand the concept of a fixie being a specific winter training rig - once you get into it you may find you like it better!

[DRZRM]

Jack,

I ride 175s for road and 170s on my Bianchi Pista. Were I you, I'd just drop to the 170s, but whatever you use, they eventually come to feel pretty normal after a bit. The truth is, I notice it most when I ride my fixed home from work after dark and then jump on the trainer right away. You do learn to turn differently (I also use pedals with good turning clearance).

Zach

[djg]

I had no clue about the crank length on a fixie. Should I use a 165 or 170 as I use 172.5 on my road bike.

Jack

Lots of folks go shorter a bit to work on spin, but I think that if this is to be for road training, going way shorter doesn't make sense to me--easy enough to jump back and forth between 170 and 172.5, but I imagine that you'll notice with a 165. Personally, I don't find cornering to be a problem with 172.5 on the road, and I'm guessing that most folks wouldn't mind it with modern pedals and even vaguely reasonable cornering.

BTW: this may seem like a horror to some, but you can use a Veloce bb with a 111 spindle with a Pista track crank--that gives you a (cheap) road bb that works fine, if you want.

[Redturbo]

If money was no object, I'd love to have a SRM on my fixie sometimes. :eek:

turbo

[Lincoln]

... Think of a guy dressed head to toe in red Assos winter kit and you get what I mean.

LMAO, I saw him here last week and thought "that's a bit much."

[mosca]

I noticed that SRAM is doing an external bearing track crank now, which is spec'd on the 07 Pista Concept. No-so-beautiful graphics, but looks like a decent crank. Something else to consider.

[11.4]

I had no clue about the crank length on a fixie. Should I use a 165 or 170 as I use 172.5 on my road bike.

Jack

You got plenty of answers while I was traveling for a day. Many people just want to emulate their road bike but with a fixed gear, but frankly the fixed gear experience is more than no freewheel. It's all about developing leg speed, and if you keep on a longer crank, you aren't doing that -- you're just letting one leg push the other around. Fixies can actually form bad habits if you don't work at it. I'd still suggest going to a 165. You'll work up a lot of leg speed that converts into greater power. In addition, a shorter crank arm usually reduces the likelihood that you'll have any knee or other joint problems with a fixie. I ride a 172.5 on the road, but a 165 on the track.

As far as pedal clearance, you could ride 180s if you ride tamely in a straight line. A low-gear fixie isn't an excuse to ride slower. Instead, pedal at 135 rpm and still ride 23-25 mph. That's when you're training on it. Riding at 95 rpm in a 66 inch gear is simply slow-speed cruising. Now when you're riding fast, and taking turns fast, you need more clearance. If I slow down to 10 mph for a turn I don't need pedal clearance either, but that's not my own way of training on a fixie. You'll need to decide what you want to do on the bike.

[Jack Brunk]

11.4,

What about 167.5 length cranks instead of the 165's? Also, is business cycles the best source for sugino cranks?

Jack

[11.4]

John Dacey at Business Cycles is superb. I could never criticize him in any way. I've done a lot of business with him and he's honest, careful, open, you name it. He's the #1 name in the track cycling business. There are some great places elsewhere: Bill Ron Cycles in Redondo Beach, Yojimbo's in Chicago, and Bike-Central in Portland. Those at least are my three favorites for track. Bike-Central has the best prices, Bill Ron has the greatest pure expertise (Bill has been national team track mechanic so many times I don't think he keeps count) and has the most blow-out track store around. Yojimbo's has incredible amounts of unique fixie stuff -- tons of NJS Japanese equipment, grips in fifty colors, rims in thirty colors, Phil Wood hubs in ten colors -- he's absolutely amazing if you want pure unadulterated over the top bling. Check his site at www.yojimbosgarage.com if you want to see just a tiny taste of it -- bad site but call Marcus up and just talk about what you want.

As for 165 vs. 167.5, some people can feel the difference, others won't. I notice it but I'm also extremely used to 165's. From a practical standpoint, since you aren't switching between 165's and 167.5's, you can use either one. The point is really just to get a shorter crankarm so that your legs learn to move faster, both faster velocity in one direction and faster through a complete pedal revolution.

[obtuse]

jack-

shorter cranks will allow you to take corners faster if that's your thing...all my road bikes are running 180s right now. my track bike which is mostly used on the road as a feeble attempt to increase my leg speed uses 170mms. but if i was riding a fixed gear without this specific purpose in mind, i'd use 175s and just be a bit careful. when i raced pursuit i used 177.5s so go figure. i would strongly second the opinions cited here who encouraged you to go for dura-ace track cranks. they're the best hands down. use an ultegra bb if you want to ride it on the road though.


obtuse

[11.4]

Jack,

You didn't say what size frame you ride. Not that it really drives crank length necessarily on the track, but it would indicate limitations in crank arm length if you're at one extreme or the other.

[Jack Brunk]

I ride sloping frames in size 55-56cm TT.


Jack

[11.4]

If you were a really big rider, I might advocate moving up in crank length a bit, especially if you were already riding 177.5's or something like that. But riding 172.5's now and at your height, I'd suggest you at least start at 165. Riding a smaller crankarm on a fixed gear doesn't usually create joint problems (riding a longer crankarm can certainly do that), and you can develop better leg speed (aka, snap and spin) on the shorter cranks. It'll simply translate as better performance when you switch back to your road bike.

Everyone has their own ideas about crank length on fixies, but if you're riding a fixie to gain the improvement that a fixie allows, you give up part of it by not using a shorter crank. If you're riding a lower gear, shorter cranks, and higher rpm's to give yourself at least the same road speed as on your road bike or even faster, then you'll be doing yourself a lot of good. If you have a different agenda, of course, your needs might be different.

[Jack Brunk]

11.4,

I'm following everything your sayin. I owe you a cold one.


Jack

[Brian Smith]

Get some Dura-Ace in 167.5 from Business, and be in business.
What if road cranks were only made in 170mm and 175mm?

"So... you got the Dura-Ace cranks on here? I'm more of a Campy fan..."

"Well, sure, Campy cranks look nice, but if you're actually concerned with a rider's performance and fit, customizable for whatever the occasion, (as you roll open the lined Equipto drawer not stuffed with 4 cranks combining different lengths and rings) you use what is made to be tunable."

Bling, atmo.

[Jack Brunk]

Brian,

Make sure you the best track drop outs on my frame.


Jack

[Benjamin]

as far as i'm concerned, the sugino 75 is the best track crank on the market.

- it's got simple, beautiful, clean design.
- it's stiff as all get out.
- moderately light, as those things go.
- NJS, if you care
- the sugino pista BB is nice (and they're square taper, so you can use a nice phil BB)
- sugino chainrings are nice
- reasonably priced
- they come in silver, black, and super bling limited edition gold

the dura ace are great looking too, but if you're riding on the street and skipping/skidding, you may encounter durability issues with the spline interface.

the boys at trackstar claim the octalink interfaces wears down quickly with all the back and forth grinding.

[Too Tall]

Jack, FWIIW I run 175s on the track and road fixie. Along the lines change is bad and I think changing crank length dramatically jacks your body geometry unnecessarily....I just don't. However I defer to better minds.

Gearing? Road fixies are for fun and trips n' giggles. Running 68 -72" in rolling hills works. Contrary to popular opinion winter fixies force hammerheads to literally get out of the big ring for a couple months while keeping the aerobic engine in shape. Us regualr peoples just dig the simplicity and different smoke. Dig?

Dewd, love the Sugino cranks :)

PS - The 60's never happened.

[11.4]

Crank choice is always a compromise. I prefer Dura Ace because that's what 80% of the cranks at a track are going to be, so I have good compatibility. Plus the bottom brackets come in various types for various needs, and are inexpensive and low maintenance. DA just works really well and it's the stiffest in all the tests by some of the national teams.

If you're going to go skidding on the road, I wouldn't bother with much of a crank at all. It's hard on everything. The Dura Ace spline has to be fully engaged, at which point it's pretty much immovable, but many people only get it part-way bolted on. I've seen a couple that have gotten chewed up, but only because the opposing ends of the splines got to grind against each other. One got brought into a local shop and the owner was complaining that it wasn't stiff. The guy actually had the cranks at about a 150 degree angle from each other and hadn't noticed it. When we cleaned out the splines and mounted it properly, it worked just fine.

The Sugino 75 has a mystique among people trying for low-priced fixies because at least for a long time it had an extraordinarily low price and it was quite high quality. Unfortunately, it's now within about $50 of the price of the Dura Ace and Grand Mighty. It does come in black, if black is bling for you. It has a JIS taper on the cranks, not the ISO taper that Campy has, so you need to be sure and get a JIS bottom bracket. Phil makes one, if you are heading that way. However, overall the reason everyone (including now Campy) has moved away from them is that the square splines wear out and they aren't as stiff to begin with at the bottom bracket-to-crankarm junction. But for a fixie, how much of an issue is this?

I don't think Jack is looking to be doing rear-wheel skid stops, and probably will be using brakes (probably both front and rear). So at that point, crank brand is just really a matter of preference. For a fixie, any of them work fine. He wanted bling, and bling are either DA or Grand Mighty. Actually, Jack, you might call Bike Central. They had some black anodized DA cranksets a couple months ago. Now that would get you points. It's easier to go mostly black and look good than it is to go mostly gold. However, with black cranks, black rims, black hubs, etc., you could do a frame with quill stem and use just the Nitto gold stem, bars, and seatpost and perhaps a little gold highlighting on the frame. That could be reasonably subtle.

So many choices, so little time.

[obtuse]

come on jack-

go for a real crank; none of this outmoded retail stuff. tell'em 11.4.

obtuse

[11.4]

Jeez, another Walser. So commonplace. And that crankset only works on a Walser with its custom narrow bottom bracket width.

Come to think of it, Jack, what are you doing on a Legend Ti or a steel frame? Get a Walser. Add a custom 30 cm wide carbon integrated track bar and stem from Crumpton and you can squeeze between cars and leave all the messengers in your wake. It'll be like watching cartoons -- you'll shoot through and they'll be snagged by their bottom brackets.

[obtuse]

Jeez, another Walser. So commonplace. And that crankset only works on a Walser with its custom narrow bottom bracket width.

Come to think of it, Jack, what are you doing on a Legend Ti or a steel frame? Get a Walser. Add a custom 30 cm wide carbon integrated track bar and stem from Crumpton and you can squeeze between cars and leave all the messengers in your wake. It'll be like watching cartoons -- you'll shoot through and they'll be snagged by their bottom brackets.


yeah you're right.
he should probably go for a fes.

obtuse

[Jack Brunk]

I am taking Serotta up on their 2 week turn around time for my Ti fixed gear frame. You guys have instructed me well and I'll post photo's once it's complete.


Jack

[Too Tall]

OK, so I WON'T be the only guy with a Ti track frame...at least yours will look right.