View Full Version : Wheel building question
I like the Boyd Lite Ceramic Coated Rims. I'm using the same rims on one of my wheelsets, however not ceramic coated. My question is could/would a wheelbuilder swap out rims using the same Sapim CX-Ray spokes?
icepick_trotsky
10-29-2018, 12:52 PM
If the rims are the same ERD, the swap should work.
yinzerniner
10-29-2018, 01:07 PM
If the rims are the same ERD, the swap should work.
Even if rims are not the same ERD you might be able to use the same spokes and nipples depending on the rim, spoke and nipple specs. And you'll have to check original build config to see if the threads have been bottom or topped out and if there's any room for adjustment.
Different spokes have different amounts of build-in adjustability based on the threaded length, and 14mm nipples give you that extra amount of adjustability as well.
Is there any reason a wheelbuilder would not want to swap out rims using the same spokes? Those Sapim CX-Ray spokes really add to the cost!
Mark McM
10-29-2018, 02:23 PM
Is there any reason a wheelbuilder would not want to swap out rims using the same spokes? Those Sapim CX-Ray spokes really add to the cost!
If the wheel has been well used, and in particular if there have already been broken spokes, or the if the rim has been bent (resulting in wildly different spoke tensions), the wheel builder may prefer to start with fresh spokes. Also, some wheel builders will not offer a warranty against spoke breakage if old spokes are reused.
chrisroph
10-29-2018, 02:36 PM
It's a labor intensive swap and takes more time than starting from scratch. Nipples cam be stuck or rounded, spokes can have some bends or scratches. I've done this type of swap on handbuilt winter wheels when a rim was close to wearing out from repeated wet weather braking but for a higher zoot set of wheels I'll usually just use new spokes and nipples. Most wheel builders wouldn't want to take such a project on and you likely wouldn't want to pay them for all of their time. If your only reason for contemplating this swap is to go to a coated rim, my view is its really not worth the bother or expense.
Hindmost
10-29-2018, 03:26 PM
Are we talking about what a wheel builder would prefer to do for a customer or what someone building their own wheels would choose to do? For wheels that have not been abused I swap rims and retain the spokes quite frequently. Rim brake surfaces wear out, spoke holes / eyelets crack, and rims get dinged whereas spokes really don't wear out.
It's a labor intensive swap and takes more time than starting from scratch. Nipples cam be stuck or rounded, spokes can have some bends or scratches. I've done this type of swap on handbuilt winter wheels when a rim was close to wearing out from repeated wet weather braking but for a higher zoot set of wheels I'll usually just use new spokes and nipples. Most wheel builders wouldn't want to take such a project on and you likely wouldn't want to pay them for all of their time. If your only reason for contemplating this swap is to go to a coated rim, my view is its really not worth the bother or expense.
I like the looks of the rim, knowing the ceramic doesn't wear, my only reason.
If the wheel has been well used, and in particular if there have already been broken spokes, or the if the rim has been bent (resulting in wildly different spoke tensions), the wheel builder may prefer to start with fresh spokes. Also, some wheel builders will not offer a warranty against spoke breakage if old spokes are reused.
The wheelset is in excellent shape, less than 1500 miles.
Good point, didn't consider warranty issues
Marcovelo
10-29-2018, 06:34 PM
You might find a builder who will not guarantee the roundness/trueness of the wheel if re-using spokes. There used to be a line of thinking that once the spokes are stressed they are less predictable. I have never seen any data on whether building a wheel puts enough stress on a spoke to alter its elasticity or other metallurgical properties, though I wouldn't be surprised to come across a builder who believed that.
Not sure I believe it myself, on the other hand, there are times (sprinting on the track, comes to mind) when there is peace of mind to be had through ultimateconfidence in your gear.
cmbicycles
10-29-2018, 06:48 PM
Different spokes have different amounts of build-in adjustability based on the threaded length, and 14mm nipples give you that extra amount of adjustability as well.
Kind of sort of not really. You still want the spoke to thread through the shoulder of the nipple, so while longer nipples will give more reach to a short spoke, it wont build as reliable a wheel.
DRietz
10-29-2018, 06:51 PM
Why not opt for a less expensive spoke? Because I can assure you, you won’t notice the difference.
oldguy00
10-29-2018, 07:26 PM
Why not opt for a less expensive spoke? Because I can assure you, you won’t notice the difference.
Agree. Use DT double butted spokes and brass nipples. You might lose a watt in rotational drag. You'll never ever notice it, and neither will anyone else unless they are running their fingers over the spokes.
Why not opt for a less expensive spoke? Because I can assure you, you won’t notice the difference.
I like the looks of Sapim CX-Ray spokes. They are the only spokes I've used on high end builds, been very happy with them.
oldpotatoe
10-30-2018, 06:49 AM
I like the Boyd Lite Ceramic Coated Rims. I'm using the same rims on one of my wheelsets, however not ceramic coated. My question is could/would a wheelbuilder swap out rims using the same Sapim CX-Ray spokes?
Sure, stainless steel spokes are very resilient..I swap the nipps tho for SecureLock tho..brass..tape the rims together and swap spokes, one at a time.
oldpotatoe
10-30-2018, 06:51 AM
Most wheel builders wouldn't want to take such a project on and you likely wouldn't want to pay them for all of their time.
I have a nipple grabbing tool that makes this swap really not a big deal. Done it dozens of times.
November Dave
10-30-2018, 07:14 AM
Easy swap, no issue, do it all the time, 100% agree with oldpotatoe.
If the spokes have been compromised (about 75% of wheels I see have had a chain run across the heads-in drive side rear spokes) in any way then replacing them would be at the builder's discretion and the wheel owner's cost, but man this is not a controversy.
Have built several Altamont Lite in both ceramic and machined, the ERD is exactly the same. They're the same rim, some just get pulled off the line to become ceramics and the others go in the anodizing and machining line.
I'm in the process of looking for another local wheelbuilder, my wheelbuilder has moved https://www.kbwheels.com/ He would have done the swap.
I've had a wheelbuilder in the past that did not want to swap out the same rims using the same spokes, reason for my question.
I'm trying to avoid shipping wheels again, done that for many years before finding a decent local builder. The bike shops in my area are not an option. Before I start shipping again, does anyone here know of a good builder in the Sacramento, Folsom, Auburn area?
peanutgallery
10-30-2018, 08:25 AM
From the IBD perspective:
*I hate working with those particular spokes and alum nips that are on there. So we'd have to replace those, consider it a favor.
*If I had a nickel for every time a customer assured me they were JRA, and their (insert bike part here) was as pure as the driven snow, all it needs is (insert delusional solution here). I'd have an island in the South Pacific. Call me suspicious, been down that road too many times. I would make sure I took a good look at that hub and definitely not re-use the spokes/nips
*The wheel company in question is consumer direct for all intents and purposes as far as I'm concerned, no? So I'm going to penalize you accordingly...but with a smile, no sour mood about it. It is what it is
Plan on $100 to $150
From the IBD perspective:
*I hate working with those particular spokes and alum nips that are on there. So we'd have to replace those, consider it a favor.
*If I had a nickel for every time a customer assured me they were JRA, and their (insert bike part here) was as pure as the driven snow, all it needs is (insert delusional solution here). I'd have an island in the South Pacific. Call me suspicious, been down that road too many times. I would make sure I took a good look at that hub and definitely not re-use the spokes/nips
*The wheel company in question is consumer direct for all intents and purposes as far as I'm concerned, no? So I'm going to penalize you accordingly...but with a smile, no sour mood about it. It is what it is
Plan on $100 to $150
Trying to avoid wheelbuilders like this.
peanutgallery
10-30-2018, 09:32 AM
Well...I can live with that. Retail isn't a charity
Trying to avoid wheelbuilders like this.
Well...I can live with that. Retail isn't a charity
Peanut, I'm not looking for charity. JRA and the whole doing me a favor with a smile turned me off. The wheelset is like new, newly built, thinking is a waste of money if spokes can be reused on the same rim.
93KgBike
10-30-2018, 10:48 AM
JRA MYOB and suddenly SNAFU? Wrench is SMH? DIY and KCACO.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513EHRDXVFL.jpg
And the DT Swiss website has a nice spoke length calculator...
I'm in the process of looking for another local wheelbuilder, my wheelbuilder has moved https://www.kbwheels.com/ He would have done the swap.
I've had a wheelbuilder in the past that did not want to swap out the same rims using the same spokes, reason for my question.
I'm trying to avoid shipping wheels again, done that for many years before finding a decent local builder. The bike shops in my area are not an option. Before I start shipping again, does anyone here know of a good builder in the Sacramento, Folsom, Auburn area?
I would recommend checking with local frame builders. You might give Steve Rex a call and see if he can do it, or recommend a local builder who can. Chris McGovern, in Nevada City I think, also builds wheels and is a race mechanic, so I am sure he has some experience with this as well. Hope that helps.
Gummee
10-30-2018, 01:32 PM
Peanut, I'm not looking for charity. Just the whole doing me a favor with a smile turned me off. The wheelset is like new, newly built, thinking is a waste of money if spokes can be reused on the same rim.
Yes and no. CX-Rays aren't the stiffest things on the planet and if you're on the bigger side, or they're in low spoke count wheels, they may not be 'the spokes' for you. I like em too, but they tend to twist easily as well as being flexy.
There's a Sapim spoke one 'weight' heavier that would probably be more appropriate in most wheelbuilds, that no one seems to know about if you must have the bladed look.
AFA retail re-building a wheel: my last shop was right in the $100-150 ballpark too depending on the PITA factor. Deep dish wheels with flimsy spokes, alloy nipples, etc? Higher end of that range. 32h Open Pro style wheel that's easy peasy to rebuild? Lower end.
It takes time (and at a shop, time = $$) to unlace the rim and spokes carefully, then re-lace the rim, then tension and true.
M
peanutgallery
10-30-2018, 02:17 PM
With used wheels? Consumer direct? I'm doing you a favor
Peanut, I'm not looking for charity. Just the whole doing me a favor with a smile turned me off. The wheelset is like new, newly built, thinking is a waste of money if spokes can be reused on the same rim.
Jeff N.
10-30-2018, 02:52 PM
Differn't spokes fer differn't folks! (Sorry.....)
yinzerniner
10-30-2018, 02:53 PM
With used wheels? Consumer direct? I'm doing you a favor
Seriously. The OP stated they want the Boyd ceramic rims even though they have a perfectly fine set of the metal track ones, then state they like the look of the cx-rays without referencing any real performance benefits, then say that they want to save some money by re-using spokes and nips even though it's not unanimously recommended by a lot of qualified voices.
If you really want to save money, keep the rims you got.
If you want the ceramic rims, then it's gonna cost a bit to make sure they're 100% safe to ride when rebuilt.
If you MUST have cx-rays fine, just don't whine about saving money by reusing spokes when you'd probably be spending less by asking a wheelbuilder to harvest the hubs and use lower-cost spokes for a complete rebuild.
Spending time to figure out if the spokes and nipples are reusable and complaining about a rebuild cost to reuse said parts wreaks of penny wise, pound foolish.
Yes and no. CX-Rays aren't the stiffest things on the planet and if you're on the bigger side, or they're in low spoke count wheels, they may not be 'the spokes' for you. I like em too, but they tend to twist easily as well as being flexy.
There's a Sapim spoke one 'weight' heavier that would probably be more appropriate in most wheelbuilds, that no one seems to know about if you must have the bladed look.
AFA retail re-building a wheel: my last shop was right in the $100-150 ballpark too depending on the PITA factor. Deep dish wheels with flimsy spokes, alloy nipples, etc? Higher end of that range. 32h Open Pro style wheel that's easy peasy to rebuild? Lower end.
It takes time (and at a shop, time = $$) to unlace the rim and spokes carefully, then re-lace the rim, then tension and true.
M
Wouldn't make sense for me shipping wise to send my wheel to a wheelbuilder for him to unlace and than build me a wheel using new spokes.
I think in Peanuts case he whats hubs, new ceramic rims and from what I understand he will provide new Sapim CX-Ray spokes, nipples $100-150 per wheel which is not bad, not at all.
Seriously. The OP stated they want the Boyd ceramic rims even though they have a perfectly fine set of the metal track ones, then state they like the look of the cx-rays without referencing any real performance benefits, then say that they want to save some money by re-using spokes and nips even though it's not unanimously recommended by a lot of qualified voices.
I like the LOOKS of the rim, I like the LOOKS and performance of the spokes, all the reason I need! Some of the best builders I know say if the ERD is the same and the spokes are good, no problem. Never mentioned nipples? Whats wrong with saving money if this is the case?
If you really want to save money, keep the rims you got.
If you want the ceramic rims, then it's gonna cost a bit to make sure they're 100% safe to ride when rebuilt.
If you MUST have cx-rays fine, just don't whine about saving money by reusing spokes when you'd probably be spending less by asking a wheelbuilder to harvest the hubs and use lower-cost spokes for a complete rebuild.
Whined about money? please.
The spokes for this build costs over $150, it just makes sense to use my existing spokes on this build if I'm using the same rim.
Spending time to figure out if the spokes and nipples are reusable and complaining about a rebuild cost to reuse said parts wreaks of penny wise, pound foolish.
LOL, I don't think anyone has complained about any costs?
With used wheels? Consumer direct? I'm doing you a favor
Thanks, appreciate it. I wasn't disapproving of your offer, apoligizes if i offended. As I said earlier I already have a wheelbuilder actually several, all are out of state now so I would just ship out to them.
However, I want a local builder. I don't want to ship wheels back and forth if I could help it. I have lots of bikes, lots of wheels, it was convenient having someone local. I posted my question because of past experience in a similar situation. I want to know how other builders feel, and why. Like so many times before here I got my answer.
peanutgallery
10-30-2018, 07:48 PM
No offense taken, just giving you a heads up from the retail end. Wheel building is an art, and they can get particular as to what they will do. All about expectations
Don't get me started on ski boot fitting:)
Thanks, appreciate it. I wasn't disapproving of your offer, apoligizes if i offended. As I said earlier I already have a wheelbuilder actually several, all are out of state now so I would just ship out to them.
However, I want a local builder. I don't want to ship wheels back and forth if I could help it. I have lots of bikes, lots of wheels, it was convenient having someone local. I posted my question because of past experience in a similar situation. I want to know how other builders feel, and why. Like so many times before here I got my answer.
oldpotatoe
10-31-2018, 06:46 AM
CX-Rays aren't the stiffest things on the planet and if you're on the bigger side, or they're in low spoke count wheels, they may not be 'the spokes' for you. I like em too, but they tend to twist easily as well as being flexy.
I agree..lots of 'urban' info about these but they are essentially Laser(thin) spokes then ovalized..They market 'aero-ness' and 'toughness' and you see them on a lot of 'wheelsouttaboxes(factory built wheels) but thin spokes.
So, don't make that '3 or 4 strikes and you are out' mistake..
-thin spokes
-low spoke count
-light rim
-heavy rider or rider tough on wheels
IMHO, of course, 'pal'
I agree..lots of 'urban' info about these but they are essentially Laser(thin) spokes then ovalized..They market 'aero-ness' and 'toughness' and you see them on a lot of 'wheelsouttaboxes(factory built wheels) but thin spokes.
So, don't make that '3 or 4 strikes and you are out' mistake..
-thin spokes
-low spoke count
-light rim
-heavy rider or rider tough on wheels
IMHO, of course, 'pal'
I can say from my experience on both mtb and road they are tough. I have several mtb wheels that were damaged this summer, two alloy and one carbon all using this spoke, spokes not damaged. In one crash a rock racked across the spokes damaging 4 of them, however they did not break. In a road crash last year another riders foot went through my rear wheel pulling two spokes through the rim, spokes not damaged.
oldpotatoe
10-31-2018, 10:00 AM
I can say from my experience on both mtb and road they are tough. I have several mtb wheels that were damaged this summer, one alloy and two carbon all using this spoke, spokes not damaged. In one crash a rock racked across the spokes damaging 4 of them, however they did not break. In a road crash last year another riders foot went through my rear wheel pulling two spokes through the rim, spokes not damaged.
Don't think I said they weren't tough but in the 'no such thing as a free lunch', they start life as a thin spoke(Laser) then ovalized..as such, they won't be as stiff as a spoke of thicker dimensions, all else being equal(rim, spoke count, lacing, etc). PLUS, at $3+ per, doubt they are 3 times 'better' than a standard, double butted, 2/1.8/2mm Sapim Race of DT Comp spoke.
IMHO
Don't think I said they weren't tough but in the 'no such thing as a free lunch', they start life as a thin spoke(Laser) then ovalized..as such, they won't be as stiff as a spoke of thicker dimensions, all else being equal(rim, spoke count, lacing, etc). PLUS, at $3+ per, doubt they are 3 times 'better' than a standard, double butted, 2/1.8/2mm Sapim Race of DT Comp spoke.
IMHO
No you didn't. Just wanted to share my experiences with these spokes.
I have another question. I'm taking 93KgBike suggestion. I'm going to purchased the book he suggested, and some tools needed and build a wheelset. I have a wheelset using the Stans Alpha 340 that are wore down close to the wear indicator, i want to use this wheelset as my first build. I would like to swap over the Boyd rims being replaced using the same spokes on the stan's wheelset. The Stans rim ERD is 592, the Boyds is 590, is this close enough.
oldpotatoe
10-31-2018, 10:39 AM
I have another question. I'm taking 93KgBike suggestion. I'm going to purchased the book he suggested, and some tools needed and build a wheelset. I have a wheelset using the Stans Alpha 340 that are wore down close to the wear indicator, i want to use this wheelset as my first build. I would like to swap over the Boyd rims being replaced using the same spokes on the stan's wheelset. The Stans rim ERD is 592, the Boyds is 590, is this close enough.
Depends on how close the spokes/nipples were on the stans. If the spokes were right to the end of the nipple on the stans, they will stick past the nipple on the Boyds. If not at the end..sure, why not. Not necessarily a deal breaker unless they are so long the nipple runs out of threads and cannot be turned any longer.
Good book BTW..
Depends on how close the spokes/nipples were on the stans. If the spokes were right to the end of the nipple on the stans, they will stick past the nipple on the Boyds. If not at the end..sure, why not. Not necessarily a deal breaker unless they are so long the nipple runs out of threads and cannot be turned any longer.
Good book BTW..
Thanks, much appreciate your help!
Gummee
10-31-2018, 11:00 AM
Hey OP: the physical act of unlacing and relacing a rim onto the same spokes isn't the hardest thing to do on a bike.
Save some $$ and send that wheel to whomever to true and tension and you're likely to get a lower quote and less kvetching.
...just carefully check to make sure there are no 'gacks' on the DS outboard spokes before you send it out.
HTH
M
yinzerniner
10-31-2018, 11:03 AM
I have another question. I'm taking 93KgBike suggestion. I'm going to purchased the book he suggested, and some tools needed and build a wheelset. I have a wheelset using the Stans Alpha 340 that are wore down close to the wear indicator, i want to use this wheelset as my first build. I would like to swap over the Boyd rims being replaced using the same spokes on the stan's wheelset. The Stans rim ERD is 592, the Boyds is 590, is this close enough.
Now THAT'S the spirit, have a go at some wheelbuilding DIY!
Another good read suggestion is the bible of the topic, The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. Slightly more holistic read, but captivating nonetheless. Honestly it's a must for any cyclist even if they'll never touch a truing stand in their life.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71CFMKWRYEL._SX365_BO1,204,203,200_.gif
Mark McM
10-31-2018, 11:40 AM
Don't think I said they weren't tough but in the 'no such thing as a free lunch', they start life as a thin spoke(Laser) then ovalized..as such, they won't be as stiff as a spoke of thicker dimensions, all else being equal(rim, spoke count, lacing, etc). PLUS, at $3+ per, doubt they are 3 times 'better' than a standard, double butted, 2/1.8/2mm Sapim Race of DT Comp spoke.
I'd argue that CX-Ray (and other super thin spokes are tougher than other spokes - but toughness isn't the only properly one should look for in a spoke. Why are they tougher? Because in most cases they are less likely to break. Spokes typically break at the ends (elbows and threads), and these spokes are just as thick and strong at the ends as any other spoke. However, due to their thin center sections, they are stretchier than thick spokes. This extra stretchiness helps to reduce changes in load at the ends, which in turn decreases spoke breakages, and also reduces rim cracking.
The downside is that these stretchy spokes will also result in a flexier wheel. For the same wheel stiffness, more of these thin spokes will be required. But if the rim is already very stiff, the extra stretchiness of these spokes may still result in a wheel of adequate stiffness, even if a smaller number of spokes is used. Today's deep and wide rims are quite stiff, so they can get by just fine with just 20 - 28 of these thin spokes. Would I build a traditional narrow and shallow rim like the Mavic Open Pro with 24 CX-Ray spokes? No, I would not. But I'd have no problem using the same number and type of spokes with a Kinlin XR31T (24mm wide, 31mm deep).
Now THAT'S the spirit, have a go at some wheelbuilding DIY!
Another good read suggestion is the bible of the topic, The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. Slightly more holistic read, but captivating nonetheless. Honestly it's a must for any cyclist even if they'll never touch a truing stand in their life.
That's what I keep hearing. I've tried building a front wheel in the ninies. I didn't have a resource book or any instructions and the wheel turned out bad. The more I tried to true it the worst it became. I'm not happy if the wheel is not true, I want it perfect, reason I haven't tried it again.
Hey OP: the physical act of unlacing and relacing a rim onto the same spokes isn't the hardest thing to do on a bike.
Save some $$ and send that wheel to whomever to true and tension and you're likely to get a lower quote and less kvetching.
...just carefully check to make sure there are no 'gacks' on the DS outboard spokes before you send it out.
HTH
M
Thanks, I'm not sure what gacks mean? I looked it up and all I could find is "The sound of a cat coughing up a hairball":eek:
oldpotatoe
10-31-2018, 11:55 AM
Thanks, I'm not sure what gacks mean? I looked it up and all I could find is "The sound of a cat coughing up a hairball":eek:
No chain to spoke wacks='gack'...
DarkStar
10-31-2018, 12:16 PM
Are we talking about what a wheel builder would prefer to do for a customer or what someone building their own wheels would choose to do? For wheels that have not been abused I swap rims and retain the spokes quite frequently. Rim brake surfaces wear out, spoke holes / eyelets crack, and rims get dinged whereas spokes really don't wear out.
Build my wheels and swap rims, have a pair of wheels with Ultegra hubs and DT spokes on their third set of Open Pro rims.
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