TDF to ban power meters

[numbskull]

Just saw this https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/oct/25/tour-de-france-cycling-power-meters-route-2019-team-sky
Apologies if it is old news.

[bicycletricycle]

I wonder if it will have any actual effects on the race.

[adub]

Also get rid of race radios and we may have something here..

[dbnm]

Now they need to ban two-way radios. I think if the riders could talk to the team and not both ways, it would make the races more exciting and more competitive.

[Lionel]

That would be good. Add race radios to the list.

[ergott]

That's stupid.

The advanced training pros go through requires that data not just for looking at watts at the moment. It's an analysis tool after the stage/race and a means for planning chronic training load.

At best, ban the display of the power numbers (but still record the data).

Race radios are far more of a buzz kill to racing than power meters.

[MattTuck]

I have a feeling that this just an effort to get press and get people talking. c'mon. Powermeters are ubiquitous in the sport, they're not going anywhere.

They're widely available, and sky does not have a monopoly on their use.

Please. If you want to diminish team sky's chances, you should have taken a hard line with the TUEs and asthma meds Froome had. Or, better yet, put a salary cap in place.

[zross312]

Plus one on the "ban race radios" train. Or alternatively, if you feel they're necessary for safety, simply have the organizers distribute all the radios, preset to a central emergency broadcast system. Doubt the power meter ban will have an effect - these guys all know their power output without having to look at it.

[adub]

That's stupid.

The advanced training pros go through requires that data not just for looking at watts at the moment. It's an analysis tool after the stage/race and a means for planning chronic training load.

At best, ban the display of the power numbers (but still record the data).

Race radios are far more of a buzz kill to racing than power meters.

Gotta disagree on the Power Meters. Sure collect the data for after analysis, but when a rider is climbing Mont Ventoux for example (Froome) and does the set-it and forget it looking at his power rather than participating in attacks it makes it quite boring.

IMO

[wallymann]

That's stupid.

agree. banning on-bike display of wattage is all they need to do.

[YesNdeed]

Somewhere there’s a Sky rider hanging his head (looking down) in dismay.

[ergott]

Gotta disagree on the Power Meters. Sure collect the data for after analysis, but when a rider is climbing Mont Ventoux for example (Froome) and does the set-it and forget it looking at his power rather than participating in attacks it makes it quite boring.

IMO

At best, ban the display of the power numbers (but still record the data).

I mentioned that but Froome is Froome, not all riders ride like that. Watch more than the TdF and you'll see plenty of great racing be people not staring at their computer.

[MattTuck]

Gotta disagree on the Power Meters. Sure collect the data for after analysis, but when a rider is climbing Mont Ventoux for example (Froome) and does the set-it and forget it looking at his power rather than participating in attacks it makes it quite boring.

IMO

We could put sheep in the roads on descents to make the race less boring, also. And tacks on the road, to encourage more drama through wheel changes at critical points in the race.

Better yet, we can have a panel of judges assess each rider on artistic merit, like they used to do in gymnastics. Riders get a panache score after each stage, so boring riders can be penalized in time.

I say that all in humor of course. If it can be shown that Sky (or any team) is getting an unfair advantage from the use of power meters, I'd be all for their ban. But, it seems the technology and methods are pretty democratized now -- banning would hurt small teams as much as big teams.

[merckx]

Add electronic shifting for a trifecta.

[MattTuck]

I mentioned that but Froome is Froome, not all riders ride like that. Watch more than the TdF and you'll see plenty of great racing be people not staring at their computer.

Agree. It's not like people aren't using power meters at other races, and I think the racing this year across most of the calendar was pretty exciting.

[93KgBike]

Add electronic shifting for a trifecta.

So basically, ban batteries.

Trying a throwback to a pure sporting event sounds interesting, but I'm not sure...

[prototoast]

Ban mountain stages that finish at the bottom of the mountain.

[FlashUNC]

Ban multiple gears and quick releases. Wingnut flip flops or bust. Ban paved roads.

Limit the amount of water that can be consumed. Ban hand ups from team cars. Make those riders forage in towns.

[rcnute]

Just saw this https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/oct/25/tour-de-france-cycling-power-meters-route-2019-team-sky
Apologies if it is old news.

I don't know the sports bureaucracy but it doesn't appear to be a done deal.

Ryan

[deechee]

Do PMs really make that much of a difference on an elite level? I remember when I first saw one of my former coaches run - he'd tell you the pace and he'd run it to the dot on the track. It was all in his head - he didn't need a watch or clock to tell him how fast to run - he'd just do it. I'm pretty sure most guys know exactly what 300watts feels like vs 330w etc.

I think its a non issue. It's just TdF trying to get people to talk.

[Mark McM]

c'mon. Powermeters are ubiquitous in the sport, they're not going anywhere.

They're widely available, and sky does not have a monopoly on their use.

That's not a strong argument. If you replace the word "powermeters" with "motors", these statements would be just as true. Motors are banned because they are considered to hurt competitiveness. If powermeters are also considered anti-competitive, they could be banned as well.

[ergott]

How many of you that think power meters should be banned have used one for several seasons with a coach?

There's a lot more sports physiology work going on over the course of a season than just looking at what 330watts looks like on your computer.

BTW, Froome would continue to look the way he did even if there wasn't a computer on the bike. It was how he was most comfortable (least uncomfortable) at high power output. It was mentioned he prefers the improved air column the throat allows with the head in that position.

And why is he always looking down? Well, according to Froome, it’s not about fixating on his power meter but about breathing. Relaxing his neck, he says, allows air to flow easier.

“I’m not just staring at my power meter when my head goes down. My gaze is a little bit lower,” Froome told CyclingWeekly in 2015. “My neck gets tired. I’ve a very rounded upper back and I find my neck gets tired. I find it’s easier for me to breathe, I can get more oxygen when my head is lower down.”

https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/bikes-and-tech/why-does-chris-froome-look-so-bad-on-a-bike_473417

[54ny77]

The TDF organizers should just ban stage racing altogether, turn it into an open drug use 1 day fondo up alpe d' huez. Then it'll finally be a level playing field.

[Jaybee]

I don't see this as the Sky-neutralizing move that it seems like the organizers hope it is. Everyone uses power meters, most elite riders already have an idea of what their wattage/what they can sustain is, it won't change the fact that the Sky riders are better prepared.

[echappist]

That's not a strong argument. If you replace the word "powermeters" with "motors", these statements would be just as true. Motors are banned because they are considered to hurt competitiveness. If powermeters are also considered anti-competitive, they could be banned as well.

this is where simple analogies fail

PM are passing observation tools, like having a tachymeter in the car. One could just gauge engine RPM by sound, or one could have an actual instrument. It doesn't make you faster per se when in use. Motors are tools that allows one to go faster while expending less energy. If you can't differentiate the difference btwn the two, I'd say respectfully that you are being purposely obtuse.

------------------------------

as for the issue overall, you now have Sram and Shimano in the business of selling PMs, which end consumers buy (seems like at least half of roadies have one these days). Do they really want to mess with the business models of the biggest sponsors?

PS. Note the phrasing "could be banned". It's not a fait accompli, and i agree with previous poster who said that this is probably to stir up s*** and generate news more than anything else.

PPS. This ignores the bigger picture. I'm blatantly plagiarizing here (from a post on cyclingnews)


We have power meters at the Giro. When was the last time we had a boring Giro?

We have power meters at the Vuelta. When was the last time we had a boring Vuelta.

Froome won by going on the offensive to crack Dumoulin, who was weighed down by fellow breakmates who didn't want to work. Two years before that, Kruijswick held onto the lead so long before crashing, then Chavez folded. I can go on, but almost every edition of the Giro has been exciting, since I began following the sport in 2009-2010. Contrast that to the TdF, where the last truly exciting edition was 2011, won by, wait for it, "boring" ole Cuddles who supposedly "never attacks".

[tristan]

That's stupid.

The advanced training pros go through requires that data not just for looking at watts at the moment. It's an analysis tool after the stage/race and a means for planning chronic training load.

At best, ban the display of the power numbers (but still record the data).


I'm not sure - I think it could be the overall training load which organisers are trying to remove from the riders and staff. This could make the playing field a lot move level as the big teams like Sky go to extreme levels to record how much energy is expended by a rider, then match that perfectly with nutrition in order to loose or gain the 'right' amount of weight per day. See:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/44694122

Eliminating the teams ability to scientifically understand this load and instead go by rider 'feel' could be a big improvement for the sport.

The downside for viewers would be the loss of power numbers on TV - its always great as a viewer to see the incredible numbers professionals are capable of.

[MattTuck]

That's not a strong argument. If you replace the word "powermeters" with "motors", these statements would be just as true. Motors are banned because they are considered to hurt competitiveness. If powermeters are also considered anti-competitive, they could be banned as well.

I don't think it was an argument at all, it was a prediction :)

Is there an argument that power meters hurt competition?

[kppolich]

I hope this one doesn't go through. If anything, power meters reveal more about the riders and could be used for doping/mechanical doping sanctions. Additionally, the data is just fun to look at and dream about being able to put out that many W/kg!

[Black Dog]

Also get rid of race radios and we may have something here..

This all the way to the finish line.

The radios have a far more serious imapact on making the racing boring than Power meters.

[sfo1]

Let 'em keep the power meters; dump the race radios.

Racing on instinct, reading the race as it unfolds, taking more risk; how can that be bad for a sport that needs a dose of excitement.

[djg21]

I wonder if it will have any actual effects on the race.

The odds are low that power meters could be banned. The industry is far too vested in the development and sale of the devices and needs to have them used in the TDF for marketing purposes. Even the article indicates that they have become “ubiquitous.” I don’t see how excluding prohibiting power meters will favor or disfavor one team over another singe all of the riders use them. Maybe the TDF can prohibit step-in pedals too? It’s an equally stupid idea.

[bicycletricycle]

The article seemed to think it is an anti team Sky idea. I don't know what the actual motivations are but I think it might help make attacks on climbing stages more exciting. It seems like a lot of attacks are not responded to because a quick check of the powermeter confirms that the attack will fail or that a response will fail.

Banning a popular technology seems strange and possibly overkill but this happens in motorsports all the time (obviously bicycles and cars are not the same). I have no idea if it would make much of a difference. I think banning team radios would possibly help more and since the average cyclist doesn't use a radio it isn't going to seem as artificial and it will not damage shimano radio sales.

The odds are low that power meters could be banned. The industry is far too vested in the development and sale of the devices and needs to have them used in the TDF for marketing purposes. Even the article indicates that they have become “ubiquitous.” I don’t see how excluding prohibiting power meters will favor or disfavor one team over another singe all of the riders use them. Maybe the TDF can prohibit step-in pedals too? It’s an equally stupid idea.

[unterhausen]

Do PMs really make that much of a difference on an elite level? I remember when I first saw one of my former coaches run - he'd tell you the pace and he'd run it to the dot on the track. It was all in his head - he didn't need a watch or clock to tell him how fast to run - he'd just do it. I'm pretty sure most guys know exactly what 300watts feels like vs 330w etc.
this is what I was thinking. I have a pm on my gravel bike right now. I have had it working for one ride before the battery died, and didn't replace it. What I found was that I could predict what my power was to within +/-5 watts because of all the time I have spent looking at my power on my trainer. I really just wanted a PM to track my training stress.

[Black Dog]

Here is why power meters and intrateam race radios should go away. They both work to make the racing more predictable. The effect of this is to make a product that is less interesting. Racing is a product that is marketed to fans and competes against other products in the sports entertainment industry.

Neither radios or PMs necessary for rider safety. Radios that let riders know about hazards from race officials are a good idea; that is the only information that a rider should receive from an earpiece. Let them use PMs and radios while training but the race is not the place for tech that makes sure races are colourful, as long as the colours are all beige. This is a business issue and not a sporting one, well, I guess with professional sports they are often one and the same. Riders and sponsors want to win and thier self interest is in conflict with making the sport more entertaining. The role of governaning bodies is to maintain a product that is marketable and race organizers try and do the same within a narrower scope. These decisions have a real impact on the future viability of the sport.

[John H.]

This- If you know how to train and you know pace- You will be ok with or without a powermeter.
Powermeters are only really helpful for time trials, and long climbs (when you can't go with attacks).
But in most road racing situations, you have to make the group or you are not in the race. Watching a powermeter does not get you there.

this is what I was thinking. I have a pm on my gravel bike right now. I have had it working for one ride before the battery died, and didn't replace it. What I found was that I could predict what my power was to within +/-5 watts because of all the time I have spent looking at my power on my trainer. I really just wanted a PM to track my training stress.

[ergott]

There's a lot of opinions that aren't based on facts. The racing I watch hasn't been determined by power meters. Riders have picked and chosen which attacks to respond to long before power meters. It's a guide, but real winners in the pro ranks are successful because they can read a race situation.

It's like you're watching a completely different race than I am. Try watching some Classics and give the Tour de France a break.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[harlond]

Seems to me that when radios are banned, the peloton (which still gets the chalkboard advisories) keep the advantage much lower, which makes it much harder for the break to succeed. When there are radios, the peloton often gives an early break 10 minutes or more. Just my perspective, but I haven't seen any evidence that breakaways are more likely to succeed when radios are banned.

[oldpotatoe]

Just saw this https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/oct/25/tour-de-france-cycling-power-meters-route-2019-team-sky
Apologies if it is old news.

Doubt many look at them anyway when in the heat of battle..they look at their bank accounts from the sponsorship $ tho..

I remember a pic of an Indurain bike, in the era of wired computers..head only on bike, no wires=$...:eek:

[smontanaro]

Would be neat if riders had to carry their own spares. :)

https://skoda-wlc.s3.amazonaws.com/2/2017/06/One-of-the-competitors-cycles-in-Romilly-sur-Seine.jpg

[mcteague]

Interesting article on this @ VeloNews.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/10/road/book-excerpt-is-technology-killing-tactics_480621

Tim

[benb]

I wouldn't want to ban either of these in training but I support banning just about anything electronic during the actual race, even though when I raced amateur I think I always had a HRM. That would mostly include electronic shifting systems even though I don't think they really are affecting race results in any negative way.

I think the difference for me vs all the old technologies/changes/innovations is all the older innovations like derailleurs, wheel technologies, handlebar/aerobar innovations, aero frames, etc.. is that cycling for most of it's history has been a combination of man + mechanical system. Not man + mechanical system + computer/electronics/battery powered systems.

Also none of the mechanical innovations except maybe aero bars ever created distraction and danger. You can argue race radios increase safety pretty effectively but all the fancy computers and staring at power meters takes riders eyes off the road.

I'm pretty addicted to my PM but I'm not racing.. but I can definitely tell it's kind of an addiction. I made a point not to display my power #s for a while a few months ago as I was trying to limit my efforts after getting hurt and riding without it is so utterly different and relaxing. It's like having the #s up can turn the ride into some kind of OCD thing. Good for motivating yourself to train hard/easy when you're supposed to for sure but it makes everything seem robotic.

I think it's like Facebook.. people will cry and argue they need it and then if you take it away or force them to get away after a little bit they'll come back and say you opened their eyes.

On the radio safety issue I think that could easily also be solved taking away the ability for either the team cars or the riders to transmit radio... the officials are the only ones who can transmit, and they transmit the same messages to all the teams to relay safety information. Maybe you let the riders transmit too.. to spread the warning about safety issues, but they also transmit to everyone. Take away the secret instructions aspect but keep the safety benefits. It's a solvable problem.

[earlfoss]

Lance's most recent "The Move" podcast addressed this, and I happen to agree with him. In a nutshell, he is for power meters and race radios. But instead of continuing as things are currently, he suggests making those items broadcastable to enhance the viewer's experience, especially during those loooong tour stages when not much is happening. He's says more than that, and it's worth giving that episode a listen.

[Dracarys]

Lance's most recent "The Move" podcast addressed this, and I happen to agree with him. In a nutshell, he is for power meters and race radios. But instead of continuing as things are currently, he suggests making those items broadcastable to enhance the viewer's experience, especially during those loooong tour stages when not much is happening. He's says more than that, and it's worth giving that episode a listen.Yeah, I agree with him, too. Despite how much I dislike his frat-boy personality, his knowledge and perspective of pro cycling is (understandably) impressive.

[echappist]

I wouldn't want to ban either of these in training but I support banning just about anything electronic during the actual race, even though when I raced amateur I think I always had a HRM. That would mostly include electronic shifting systems even though I don't think they really are affecting race results in any negative way.

I think the difference for me vs all the old technologies/changes/innovations is all the older innovations like derailleurs, wheel technologies, handlebar/aerobar innovations, aero frames, etc.. is that cycling for most of it's history has been a combination of man + mechanical system. Not man + mechanical system + computer/electronics/battery powered systems.

Also none of the mechanical innovations except maybe aero bars ever created distraction and danger. You can argue race radios increase safety pretty effectively but all the fancy computers and staring at power meters takes riders eyes off the road.

I'm pretty addicted to my PM but I'm not racing.. but I can definitely tell it's kind of an addiction. I made a point not to display my power #s for a while a few months ago as I was trying to limit my efforts after getting hurt and riding without it is so utterly different and relaxing. It's like having the #s up can turn the ride into some kind of OCD thing. Good for motivating yourself to train hard/easy when you're supposed to for sure but it makes everything seem robotic.

I think it's like Facebook.. people will cry and argue they need it and then if you take it away or force them to get away after a little bit they'll come back and say you opened their eyes.

On the radio safety issue I think that could easily also be solved taking away the ability for either the team cars or the riders to transmit radio... the officials are the only ones who can transmit, and they transmit the same messages to all the teams to relay safety information. Maybe you let the riders transmit too.. to spread the warning about safety issues, but they also transmit to everyone. Take away the secret instructions aspect but keep the safety benefits. It's a solvable problem.

fwiw, I like to stare at numbers when training.

completely different matter when racing. When I attack, follow, counter, cover, whatever, i don't look at the PM. Only when I make it into a break does the metering of effort come into play. The post-race analysis is also important, as it shows how well I hid before the big moves and what I did during and after the big move

[FlashUNC]

There's a lot of opinions that aren't based on facts. The racing I watch hasn't been determined by power meters. Riders have picked and chosen which attacks to respond to long before power meters. It's a guide, but real winners in the pro ranks are successful because they can read a race situation.

It's like you're watching a completely different race than I am. Try watching some Classics and give the Tour de France a break.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Never mind there was a Grand Tour this year decided by one of those throwback attacks over some mountain passes, followed by the complete detonation of the race leader.

But sure, it's the power meters.

[benb]

fwiw, I like to stare at numbers when training.

completely different matter when racing. When I attack, follow, counter, cover, whatever, i don't look at the PM. Only when I make it into a break does the metering of effort come into play. The post-race analysis is also important, as it shows how well I hid before the big moves and what I did during and after the big move

I mostly do like to stare at numbers when training too, like I said. The training benefits for me have been big. I'm probably faster at 41 (or was earlier in the season) than I ever was in my 20s. Big big difference for me in training smart over one ride and over long periods of time, though I still burnt myself out pretty good this summer. That had more to do with an impulse decision to train for something really hard without enough time. I used the PM to plan pretty optimally for it but the plan was still a reach.

I'm not sure what would happen if I was racing again. My guess is my attention would stay on safe racing but I feel like after all those hours of training and glancing at the PM it's too ingrained and I would definitely occasionally look at it when I shouldn't.

I am for letting them continue to have their PMs for post race analysis and for broadcasting to the TV/radio coverage, etc..

This is all kind of theoretical anyway.. any of this stuff that gets banned probably just opens up a new avenue for teams to cheat to get it back.