Calling all brevet riders: Di2 or mechanical?

[cgolvin]

Thought I'd find this already covered but my searches bore no fruit.

A good friend is preparing to buy a Canyon and is trying to decide between mechanical and Di2 (Ultegra in either case). He does long brevet rides (training for PBP right now) and is concerned about reliability -- specifically the inability to deal with a failure during a long ride.

I personally prefer mechanical because I know I can deal with almost any problem that arises, provided I'm willing to carry things like extra cables and a chain tool. That said, if I am objective I suspect that the probability of a catastrophic failure is probably equal for mechanical and electronic.

So…for all you long distance riders, what's your experience and what is your thought process that has led you to the choice that you've made?

Thanks pals

[Clean39T]

No experience myself, but RAAM riders have been using Di2 for years... Good enough for them, probs good enough for others.

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[icepick_trotsky]

Aren't both systems so astonishingly consistent and reliable that it doesn't matter at this point?

[AngryScientist]

Both quite reliable; but if traveling with the bike; as one need to do for PBP; I think mechanical offers more availability of spare parts cheaper when far from home and TSA crushes your FD.

[godfrey1112000]

Aren't both systems so astonishingly consistent and reliable that it doesn't matter at this point?

Two variables

DI dead battery 🔋

Mechanical worn cable,

I have done many 300k and double century rides
I would say DI2

[cderalow]

doesn't Di2 charge off a USB port? Carry a spare USB power bank batter?

[Mark McM]

No experience myself, but RAAM riders have been using Di2 for years... Good enough for them, probs good enough for others.

Not a good example. RAAM riders are followed continuously by a support vehicle, which carry multiple extra bicycles, batteries, etc. (in fact, individual rider support for a RAAM rider is better even than in professional bike races, where the support vehicle may be much further away, and/or have to support multiple riders).

Unlike brevet riders, RAAM riders carry no extra clothing, food, tools, spare parts, etc. - these are all carried by the support vehicle. Nor do they do any work on their own bikes (this is all done by the support crew).

[cgolvin]

Two variables

DI dead battery 🔋

Mechanical worn cable,

I have done many 300k and double century rides
I would say DI2

Thanks (to others as well). I've heard that a charged Di2 battery lasts a very long time, so would think that the first scenario is user error. The variable I was thinking about was a disconnect/failure in the wiring. And is heavy rain an influencing factor at all?

[Clean39T]

Not a good example. RAAM riders are followed continuously by a support vehicle, which carry multiple extra bicycles, batteries, etc. (in fact, individual rider support for a RAAM rider is better even than in professional bike races, where the support vehicle may be much further away, and/or have to support multiple riders).

Unlike brevet riders, RAAM riders carry no extra clothing, food, tools, spare parts, etc. - these are all carried by the support vehicle. Nor do they do any work on their own bikes (this is all done by the support crew).Point taken.

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[unterhausen]

I think randonneurs make up 95% of the population that have had trouble with Di2. Granted, it's all user error charging issues.

I don't think my rando bike would be the first bike I owned with Di2. Now I'm curious if the bike shops at PBP controls have charged Di2 batteries.

There are a number of randos that insist on using downtube shifters because they are more reliable.

[benb]

The last few years I've done a few of the shorter rando rides through the local group and I don't really see people gravitating towards techie bikes with stuff like Di2...

Most bias towards comfortable metal bikes with more traditional drivetrain setups. Steel frames, Mechanical drivetrains, triples, downtube shifters and bar end shifters, fenders, bags, extra spokes taped to the frame, etc..

If the ride is so long you're not riding at max speed the whole time it gets easy to start thinking about comfort & simplicity vs high tech speed.

The first year I did said ride I did it on my Carbon Trek.. the weather was nice but highly variable temps.. ended up uncomfortable and not having a place to stow.

This year I took my All City space horse... probably +10lbs but I had fenders & a Revelate tail bag. Stayed comfortable in the rain early in the ride and had plenty of room to change clothes later in the day when the weather changed like crazy. The heavy low tech bike didn't really slow me down much in the end when you consider the terrain + changing weather + need to carry stuff.

So much of "fast road riding" is a dress up party. People want to be seen riding whatever the Tour De France guys are riding. Fancy high tech bikes, obsession with light weight, leave all the tools at home cause they weigh too much, pretend there is a neutral support car that's going to bail you out even though there isn't. Rando has an element of dress up party too but they are going for the look of being prepared to ride to the end of the earth unsupported in variable weather. It's a more realistic aesthetic.

I'm the wrong person to talk about this cause I have little interest in Di2 but if I was to be interested in a Di2 bike it'd be a go fast bike, I wouldn't think about it for a randonneur setup.

That said I still took the Carbon Trek on my 2 longest rides this year. If it's hilly enough and it's summer weather and/or there is support it just makes good sense.

[tctyres]

Basically, if it exists, randonneurs use it. I've seen a lot of Di2 on brevets. Downtube shifters are out there too.

I use mechanical 11s. I probably won't change for now.

The biggest problems I've seen with Di2 are when the owner decided to upgrade the firmware the day before or a few days before a ride. :no:

[ptourkin]

Di2. It's as reliable (if not more) as mechanical and in super cold late nights, I find it easier to shift. I finished a ridiculous brevet once unable to get my fingers into my gloves correctly and was able to basically shift with my fist.

A Di2 battery would last for many 1200 k brevets.

In the years I've been doing brevets and ultras, I've always found that the best way to get comfortable is to finish the ride and go home. Ride the fastest bike you are comfortable on.

I have a number of SRs and at least on the West Coast (South of Jan Heine,) have never seen a "rando dress up party." Most serious randonneurs ride the bikes they have. If you can put lights and a cue sheet on it, ride it.

[gone]

Di2 all the way here. I’ve used it on numerous 1200K+ rides, including LEL and it’s been flawless. I did LEL on a single charge of the battery and it had gobs of life left after I was done.

Oh, and I had about 8 hours of biblical level rain too.

The only time I’ve ever had any trouble with Di2 is when some idiot (yours truly) pulled the wire into the shifter cable loose enough that it was making intermittent contact when I was changing bar tape. Would only shift to/from the big ring with multiple attempts and finally not at all. Stopped at a control, peeled the tape back, reseated the connector, all good.

I’ll second the point made above: when it’s cold and/or your hands are tired & sore from multiple very long days in the saddle Di2 really shines - perfect shifts every time.

And another reliability note: a very large percentage of riders on the Transcontinental Race use it.


Greg

[93KgBike]

I have found that my ability to make simple, avoidable mistakes goes up with exhaustion. I have not used electronic shifting, yet. But when I do I'd expect a similar rule to apply.

You might ask yourself, "how comfortable am I with the new tech? Could I fix it at night, exhausted, with miles to go before I sleep, with the tools that I carry?"

That sort of talk would help you to build a checklist of ways to deal with the inevitable unlikely event occurring.

You might consider running a dynamo hub with a wired USB charger.

I'd use it. Good luck!

[shortwaveradio]

I think randonneurs make up 95% of the population that have had trouble with Di2. Granted, it's all user error charging issues.

I don't think my rando bike would be the first bike I owned with Di2. Now I'm curious if the bike shops at PBP controls have charged Di2 batteries.

There are a number of randos that insist on using downtube shifters because they are more reliable.

This isn't a slight against unterhausen, but I don't care what kind of ride you're doing, Di2 derailleurs use such a small amount of power relative to the battery capacity that if 95% of the problems you're having with electronic shifting are "all user error charging issues" you probably can't be trusted to drink hot coffee let alone charge a battery.

There really isn't a hard and fast rule for battery life but the charges last, on the conservative end, at least ~700-1000 miles. If you have a big event you're training/planning for and you forget to charge your bike's drivetrain battery, that's on you. Not the bike.

[cgolvin]

I think you're actually agreeing with unterhausen -- I took his meaning as "virtually all the problems that they have with Di2 are their own failure to prepare by charging the battery"
But of course I could be wrong

[muz]

On a recent 1200K, one rider had a problem with his Di2 setup as we were unpacking and getting ready. Intermittent problem with RD refusing to shift. Took it to a bike shop, diagnosed as a bad junction B port. Swapped RD and FD ports as the shop didn't have a replacement at hand. Ended up DNFing after the first day.

[crankles]

Not a good example. RAAM riders are followed continuously by a support vehicle, which carry multiple extra bicycles, batteries, etc. (in fact, individual rider support for a RAAM rider is better even than in professional bike races, where the support vehicle may be much further away, and/or have to support multiple riders).

Unlike brevet riders, RAAM riders carry no extra clothing, food, tools, spare parts, etc. - these are all carried by the support vehicle. Nor do they do any work on their own bikes (this is all done by the support crew).

Better example are the Trams Am folks.The last three winners have all been on Di2.

[unterhausen]

I'm riding a 600k this weekend, so I'm trying not to jinx myself talking about other people's equipment failures. But I have been amazed at the kinds of equipment failures I see on brevets.

[SoCalSteve]

I have found that my ability to make simple, avoidable mistakes goes up with exhaustion. I have not used electronic shifting, yet. But when I do I'd expect a similar rule to apply.

You might ask yourself, "how comfortable am I with the new tech? Could I fix it at night, exhausted, with miles to go before I sleep, with the tools that I carry?"

That sort of talk would help you to build a checklist of ways to deal with the inevitable unlikely event occurring.

You might consider running a dynamo hub with a wired USB charger.

I'd use it. Good luck!

This is so funny! DI2 has been around now for many years. It’s not “new tech” any longer.

I cannot imagine why people doing these long rides wouldn’t consider using ETap. It’s incredibly reliable and...wait for it...no wires! Yes, that’s right. No junction boxes to go bad, no wires that get pulled out. NADA!

And, the batteries are small, cheap and easily recharged with household 110 voltage. No usb required.

[muz]

I cannot imagine why people doing these long rides wouldn’t consider using ETap.


Simple. ETap charge is guaranteed not to last more than 1000 km. :banana:

[SoCalSteve]

Simple. ETap charge is guaranteed not to last more than 1000 km. :banana:

Easily remedied by putting a couple extra batteries in your jersey pocket. They are very small, light and cheap. Done!

[unterhausen]

I would like etap, but I use lower gears than is appropriate for the derailleurs. I think I'm a little more concerned about doing something stupid to the Di2 wires than the battery.

[Peter B]

Charles-

I'm old skool I guess and would go mechanical. But I've yet to take the plunge to electronic on any of my bikes. As for your friend and PBP, if he wants bombproof simplicity and reliability in potentially significant rainfall then do what I did in '07 and just ride a fixed gear. :)

[mattsurf]

In over 20,000 km Di2 riding, the only failure was caused by a Di2 cable being pulled out of the shifter after a fall... took me 10 mins to find the route cause and fix. Di2 has been amazingly reliable

However, I just build a bike with mechanical R8000 groupset, and have to report that the gap in shift quality and shift speed has never been smaller. To be honest, I would be happy with either mechanical or Di2. If cost neutral I would still go with Di2, however, if the cost difference is $250 or more I would probably go mechanical

[unterhausen]

My PBP experience was slightly marred by my packing. I managed to break the rear adjuster at the head tube, so first gear was iffy. It would stop working at inopportune moments. I was having problems with it early in the morning and some old French guy yelled "grande-grande" at me. Fortunately the course doesn't have that many steep hills

[marciero]

Better example are the Trams Am folks.The last three winners have all been on Di2.

But one of those, Lael Wilcox, famously had hers fail!

[93KgBike]

You might ask yourself, "how comfortable am I with the new tech? Could I fix it at night, exhausted, with miles to go before I sleep, with the tools that I carry?"

This is so funny! DI2 has been around now for many years. It’s not “new tech” any longer. Nit-picky.

New to the OP's friend. Not new to the marketplace.

I guess I could have said, You might ask yourself, "how comfortable am I with the new equipment? Could I fix it at night, exhausted, with miles to go before I sleep, with the tools that I carry?" But he hasn't bought it yet... because he's going to buy Ultegra and can't decide between Di2 and mechanical.

[cgolvin]

As for your friend and PBP, if he wants bombproof simplicity and reliability in potentially significant rainfall then do what I did in '07 and just ride a fixed gear. :)

Thanks Peter, I will pass along your advice (actually, I shared the link to this thread with him so he'll see it anyway). I'm not sure he's as hard a man as you but since I say that he may take up the challenge.

[pasadena]

Di2 is great, absolutely love it. I think the most benefit is from the front mech.
Minimal effort and super fast
It’s been a year but never any issues with wires and never any need for adjustment. Only adjustment I did was due to my error in setup of the front mech. (Just not properly doing the limit screws)

The only failure I can think of is if you
Forget to charge the battery.

Just pack a usb cell phone battery extender pack
Those are tiny (some are not much bigger than a chapstick) and prob $15-$30
And you can use that if for some reason the battery should run out

Or just charge it up a day or two before your event...

[crankles]

But one of those, Lael Wilcox, famously had hers fail!

and she's still using it today. obviously didn't scare her off or any one else to follow.

...and it was just the batteries, of which she had spares. I also recall a seatpost failure, one of the last things I would have thought to go 'bad'.