Any lawyers out there? Here's a horrible situation for you.

[akelman]

Hi all:

So, here's the situation. A couple of weeks ago, I sold my Ottrott as a complete bike -- along with an extra set of wheels -- through the site a to a really nice guy. All's well so far, though I learned that the market for high-end bikes is pretty soft. Anyway, I brought the bike to my local shop to have it packed and shipped to Hawaii, where the buyer lives. The bike was shipped via UPS, insured for full sale value, through a local shipping place (the total cost, including packing and shipping was around $275 -- ouch).

Here's where things get ugly. The bike arrived badly damaged. The buyer, who's remained totally reasonable throughout this horror, sent me pictures. The upshot? There's plenty of blame to go around. The shop packed the bike along with the extra set of wheels in one box. The extra set of wheels was placed with the cassette facing in, nestled inside the main triangle -- including its lovely carbon tubes. The carbon got pretty chewed up by the cassette, as did some of the Ti. There was also some other scratching. All of that said, the box was also mangled. It wasn't totally destroyed, but there were big holes punched in the side, suggesting it wasn't treated well.

The shipping place submitted a claim with UPS, which Big Brown rejected because the "bike was improperly packed." I then called my local shop, reluctantly I should add, and the manager said: "that's how we always pack bikes." The shop owner, despite my pleas, won't call me.

And now the question: what should I do? My sense is that I did everything right: had the bike professionally packed and shipped with UPS (fully insured). But now I think I'm deep in the weeds. Any suggestions? The local shop wants to file an appeal with UPS. That sounds okay, though I can't imagine that UPS is going to relent. In the meantime, should I have the buyer send me the bike back? Or do I push my luck with the buyer's patience and ask him to hold onto it for longer? Finally, do I need a lawyer? I really can't afford to lose the money from the sale.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

Ari Kelman
akelman@ucdavis.edu

[djg]

Ari Kelman
akelman@ucdavis.edu[/QUOTE]

I cannot really give you counsel with regard to your situation or the best course of action under California law, but I can make a few very general observations. First, you may be able to acquire some background information that's of use without springing for a lawyer. It's possible that your town has infromation -- perhaps posted on the web -- regarding consumer rights under California law. There may even be someone -- town, county, or a private organization, who will talk to you. It's also possible that one of the clinics at UC Davis law school has something of use, although clinics don't typically get designed around this sort of issue.

Second, you may be able to litigate this without the assistance of a lawyer. Many states have some version of "small claims court," and a quick web search can likely provide you with a link to the relevant court and its rules (for example, rules regarding the magnitude of permissable claims, how to file, etc.) -- the basic idea of such things is that an untrained person with a tort claim (a civil claim pressed by a person who has suffered what the law recognizes as a compensable harm) can walk into court and tell his or her story to a judge; that sort of thing can get pretty casual, but you are likely better off if you have a straightforward story to tell and as much documentation (nicely organized and ready at hand) to substantiate your story as you can.

Third, you can try web searches on what might be a couple of key terms -- maybe "negligence" and "bailee" are good for practice.

Fourth, it sounds as if things started to go south with the shop -- charged you a goodly amount of money for a professional service and they did it in a way that (a) seems pretty darn careless and (b) ruined, or contributed to the ruin, of an expensive bicycle (their stock in trade). It may also be possible to pursue both UPS and the shop. There's a larger issue with UPS -- there's the question how they handled your package, and the question whether they routinely issue insurance, for a fee, in situations they're not likely to cover, but on the basic question of you and your bike, it seems that they took money for professional shipping and delivery and, at the very least, poked big holes in the box as a sign of their care.

Last -- and you know this -- on your description of the situation, it's really not the buyer's fault. I don't know what sort of arrangement you have with him, but I'm guessing that you meant well, but failed to deliver what he bargained for.

Best of luck with this -- sounds like a huge hassle at least.

[wtex]

We've got some LBS guys on here, I'm curious what their take on the packing was?

[swoop]

i went through this recently. ups are a bunch of assmasters. have the bikeshop manager/owner write a letter that they packed the bike up to and above industry standards using a bike box. state that this is a normal practice for them and they send and receive bikes packed this way every day.
ask ups to investigate. all this on shop letterhead.

and stay on them. i got mine but it took months and they treated me like i was a moron. the ups store that you sent the bike from is your point of contact and who will pay you in the end. do all of this through them but make the intitial claim online/phone.

take pictures of bikes in boxes at the store to illustrate the packing process.... make a case. i hope you were insured. take pictures of the damage and the damage to the box. save the packing materials.

ups should send an independant investigator to determine what happened. even of this guy sides with you. you still have ups idiots to deal with as they ignore the report. buckle in.. this will take at least 2 months.


when i have a shop pack a bike.. i do it with them. i have to sign off on it and it's my loss if things get fugly.

[93legendti]

Hi all:

So, here's the situation. A couple of weeks ago, I sold my Ottrott as a complete bike -- along with an extra set of wheels -- through the site a to a really nice guy. All's well so far, though I learned that the market for high-end bikes is pretty soft. Anyway, I brought the bike to my local shop to have it packed and shipped to Hawaii, where the buyer lives. The bike was shipped via UPS, insured for full sale value, through a local shipping place (the total cost, including packing and shipping was around $275 -- ouch).

Here's where things get ugly. The bike arrived badly damaged. The buyer, who's remained totally reasonable throughout this horror, sent me pictures. The upshot? There's plenty of blame to go around. The shop packed the bike along with the extra set of wheels in one box. The extra set of wheels was placed with the cassette facing in, nestled inside the main triangle -- including its lovely carbon tubes. The carbon got pretty chewed up by the cassette, as did some of the Ti. There was also some other scratching. All of that said, the box was also mangled. It wasn't totally destroyed, but there were big holes punched in the side, suggesting it wasn't treated well.

The shipping place submitted a claim with UPS, which Big Brown rejected because the "bike was improperly packed." I then called my local shop, reluctantly I should add, and the manager said: "that's how we always pack bikes." The shop owner, despite my pleas, won't call me.

And now the question: what should I do? My sense is that I did everything right: had the bike professionally packed and shipped with UPS (fully insured). But now I think I'm deep in the weeds. Any suggestions? The local shop wants to file an appeal with UPS. That sounds okay, though I can't imagine that UPS is going to relent. In the meantime, should I have the buyer send me the bike back? Or do I push my luck with the buyer's patience and ask him to hold onto it for longer? Finally, do I need a lawyer? I really can't afford to lose the money from the sale.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

Ari Kelman
akelman@ucdavis.edu
Did you pay with a credit card to pack and ship the bike? If yes, contact your credit card company--you may have protection/insurance/recourse thru thru your credit card.

[dave thompson]

On the surface it sounds like two parties were negligent; the bike shop to a much larger degree for improper packaging and UPS for rough (not a legal term) handling.

I've shipped more than a few bikes, complete and frame/fork, and have never had a bike arrive damaged. When you say the LBS put a 2nd set of wheels in the box along with a complete bike, I don't see how the bicycle could not be damaged in transit.

I would suspect that UPS will say that a properly packaged bike should arrive at its destination with no damage if properly packed and restrained inside its box. I would also suspect that UPS will say the holes in the bike box were caused by parts from the interior protruding through, under pressure of other freight on top. If the bike box were over stuffed with too much bike and gear and the items were not restrained properly, I would side with UPS against the LBS. I have received bikes packed by an LBS and have been very surprised by the cavalier way they were packed.

I think the only way UPS would admit liability would be if the box were penetrated or damaged from the outside, not the inside.

I'm very sorry that your beautiful bike has been damaged, but I think you need to pursue the LBS for that.

[Tom Byrnes]

I agree with Dave T. I think both UPS and the bike shop have to accept some responsibility for what has happened. Depending on how the holes in the bike box were made - from the inside or outside - will greatly determine which entity has the greater share of responsibility.

I would press both entities to pay for the damages as both contributed to the loss. $275 for packing and shipping is a lot money. I would expect a much better packing job. The extra set of wheels should not have been placed into the same box with the bike unless everything was well wrapped to prevent the unavoidable scratching while in transit.

UPS has no excuse for delivering a beaten up bike box.

HOWEVER, YOU HAVE INSURANCE. So, if your requests for compensation for your damages are not very quickly resolved, FILE A CLAIM FOR THE INSURANCE PROTECTION THAT YOU PURCHASED. Let the insurance company pay you and then sort out or apportion the responsibility.

Make sure the Buyer saves the damaged bike box and otherwise takes pictures of the damages. Let the insurance company send out its local Hawaii-based appraiser to inspect and record the damage.

GOOD LUCK.

Tom

[ERDR]

i shipped my bike from cincinnati to eugene oregon via UPS. got tired of the usual raping one takes from Delta. UPS lost my bike for over a month. turns out it ended up in atlanta. got the s**t scratched out of my merlin. multiple phone call all the way to some vice president. so frustrated, all i wanted was my shipping costs refunded. you would have thought i was asking for a testicle. the last reponse from mr. ****wad was " i guess you won't be using UPS again?" damn straight.
good luck. be persistent.
s.

[akelman]

First, thanks to you all for your time and thoughtful comments. As always, the forumites are great, restoring my shaken faith in humanity. Now let me clarify a couple of points. First, yes, there's a small claims court in California. If need be, I'll go that route, though I'll probably get a lawyer to help me with the case anyway. And second, the insurance is through UPS. I actually called my homeowners insurance company, thinking that I might need to make the claim myself as a last resort, and they told me that I'm not covered under that policy. So it's either going to handled by UPS's insurance or the local bike shop (I wonder if their insurance will cover them?).

Finally, yes, this really does suck. It's a huge hassle at a lousy time for me. I'm hugely busy right now and don't have endless time to devote to this, which is probably what it'll take to resolve. That said, it really makes a difference to get helpful feedback from all of you. I'm very grateful.

Ari

[Needs Help]

No one in the know ships anything of value with UPS. They are notorious for the response, "wasn't professionally packed, claim denied". Apparently, even when professionals do the packing! lol.

I can only imagine the crestfallen look on the buyer's face when they saw the state of the box and then their worst fears were realized when they opened it up. What a shame.

[soulspinner]

Having worked at UPS many years ago I can tell you that packages are handled with one priority in mind-speed. I could not believe how roughly stuff gets handled, and I saw it day after day, I dont care who tries to refute it. I would use UPS only with a rigid bike box in the future. For $275 the LBS should have removed the cassette and packed it in its own box atmo...

[stevep]

ship fed-ex.
ups is getting worse and worse in handling and service.
many shops i know refuse to ship ups. it is an unresponsive monopoly.

no solution for this case but think about it in the future..everyone.

[keno]

I don't quite understand your explanation. What was the role of the "shipping place" in all of this? Did they select UPS from alternatives, or is it a UPS satellite?

keno

[Sandy]

I have a few questions also- Who actually sent the bike- the lbs or you? Who paid for the insurance to ship it? Did you ever get possession of the bike , prior to shipping, once the lbs packed it?


Sandy

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Swoop and others. This will be a tremendous PITA, but you have to keep on UPS and don't be cowed. Their safest first step for EVERY claim is to deny it. I have no proof that this is their stated internal policy, but it would not surprise me in the least. All it costs them is paper and a stamp, and they are hoping that you will just go away. I imagine a healthy percentage of claimants do just that and they've won. Also keep in mind you have to be persistent with everyone in this--no matter who you purchased insurance from, they stay in business by NOT paying claims, not by giving people money.

Lastly, after all the leaarning I've done here on the forum, I would never ship with UPS anything that can't be put in a small box full of foam, and I would never have someone else pack and ship a bike for me without insisting on actually watching them do it.

BBD

[William]

ship fed-ex.
ups is getting worse and worse in handling and service.
many shops i know refuse to ship ups. it is an unresponsive monopoly.

No one in the know ships anything of value with UPS. They are notorious for the response, "wasn't professionally packed, claim denied". Apparently, even when professionals do the packing! lol.


Sorry to hear of your problem. And I hate to say it but you have an uphill battle on your hands here.

"wasn't professionally packed, claim denied". That is the standard response you get from UPS when ever you try to make a claim. Plus, UPS owns the insurance company that most people sign up for. Kind of like having a fox guard the hen house.

You would be amazed at how badly UPS can mangle packages. We have had customers receive packages that were ripped apart and only being held together with packing tape.......of a type we don't even use. We even had one shipment of a brass chandelier arrive to the customer loaded with stuffed toy alligators. Our box, our inspection report, fixture parts, and instructions inside, but loaded with psychedelic toy alligators??????? ***!!!


Best of luck to you.


William

[sc53]

You've already gotten good advice and info here, but I've been in your shoes selling and shipping expensive audio equipment with both UPS and FedEx. I have had items arrive badly damaged in badly damaged boxes--these were the factory boxes with factory foam inside etc--and still had the shipping carriers claim "improper packaging." They always say that, and they always deny the claim first off. Have your buyer take digital photos of the box, the bike, the damage, the rips in the packaging, everything. Submit your appeal to UPS, you will get a whole different office involved in reviewing the claim. In my case, the digital pix and copies of all my receipts--original sales receipt and UPS shipping and insurance receipts--were sufficient to convince the appeals office that they should pay my full insurance amount, since it matched the original sales invoice. However, UPS did send its people to the buyer to retrieve the box and damaged item for "inspection." You may not receive the damaged item back, unless you insist you want to have it repaired. Then you'll have to submit a written estimate of the repair from SErotta or your LBS. This may take months, but in my case (three instances) it took about 5 weeks total and each time the full insurance amount was paid in full to me as shipper who had purchased the insurance. You can then refund the buyer or pay for the repairs, whichever way you and the buyer have chosen to go.
ALWAYS appeal and submit digital pix of the damage. This works. Be persistent, don't give up, don't surrender.

[BumbleBeeDave]

You would be amazed at how badly UPS can mangle packages. We have had customers receive packages that were ripped apart and only being held together with packing tape.......of a type we don't even use. We even had one shipment of a brass chandelier arrive to the customer loaded with stuffed toy alligators. Our box, our inspection report, fixture parts, and instructions inside, but loaded with psychedelic toy alligators??????? ***!!!

Were there any pictures of your cross bike in there? . . . :p :confused: :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

[Chad Engle]

My father owned and operated a packing/shipping store for about 20 years. This was just prior to UPS buying all of them up and calling them the UPS Store.

The best way to avoid the "improper packaging" bs is to have the UPS store do the packing. I know they aren't bike experts but they are packing experts (I know, I know). Two inches of packing foam was the general rule when I helped Dad over the holiday season. The packing liability would now rest firmly with them.

I know it's a little late for the OP but it will save you the trouble next time.

Best of luck. Stay on UPS, it's the old squeaky wheel gets the grease saying. Eventually they'll want to pay you to stop bothering them.

[William]

Were there any pictures of your cross bike in there? . . . :p :confused: :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

http://users.adelphia.net/~getjeffrey/Private/Moe_Curly.jpg

;)

[67-59]

How much for one of the gators? :)

[William]

How much for one of the gators? :)

They've already gone to that alligator place......in UPS H-E-double hockey sticks.




William ;)

[Dan Le foot]

I feel your pain Akelman.
An insurance company's first reponse is to deny the claim. Any claim. Its in the claim adjusters proceedure manual I think.
Keep after them.

Yo Adam.
Please supervise the packing of my new frame. :)

[Lincoln]

I'm dealing with a similar situation here.

[FATBOY]

We stopped packing bikes for folks this season. Though we left it to the customer to arrange shipping, we had too many people calling us back after packing their bikes for them having received them damaged in some way. Our policy had been to never tape the box shut after packing so that we could show the customer how we had packed the bike and what we had done to ensure that it would be as safe as possible. It did not matter. UPS would always pull this same "improper packing" answer and the customer would come to us looking for restitution. It just is not worth what we charged to run into the problems we had and to have customers so upset with us for something that was now on the other side of the country. That said, best of luck that really sucks.

[Bruce K]

I seem to think that Bob Mionske addressed this issue in one of his Velonews columns.

I don't know if they have an archive where you might look it up.

I think it went something like your contract was with the UPS store and not UPS. That they somehow isolate themselves from the pack and ship stores.

It does sound like the bike shop messed up too, but that could get ugly as well.

It is messy but don't give up.

BK

[MattC]

I quite using UPS as we used to ship many different products with them. One time the customs box arrived with actual tire marks on it and was crushed and they still said damage was caused by inproper packing. Now we just use FedEx

[Steve Hampsten]

We use these guys for most of our shipped bikes: http://www.aircaddy.com/

It's expensive but less than what you paid your shop - although Hawaii may be more - and we've never had an issue.

[djcwardog]

The best way to avoid the "improper packaging" bs is to have the UPS store do the packing. I know they aren't bike experts but they are packing experts (I know, I know). Two inches of packing foam was the general rule when I helped Dad over the holiday season. The packing liability would now rest firmly with them.

The last few times I shipped via UPS, I went to the "UPS Store" to do it. They wanted to (re)pack my boxes and charge me through the nose to do it. I declined and they had me sign a waiver form regarding this issue. I don't recall if by so doing I also waived the right to buy their insurance. If true and on your facts you got insurance, maybe you weren't asked to sign a package waiver... In my case, the goods were low in value and I was confident that my packing would survive the worst - it was solid stuff and not a bike frame or wheels, etc. I signed and made a note to self. My goods arrived OK on the other end. I no longer use UPS and I go FedEx (Spin sent me her Ottrott frame via FedEx and that worked out great) or the USPO.

Although you say you used UPS, I didn't see in your post any indication that you were asked/forced to sign a waiver like I described above. You mention the "shipping place" in your post. Perhaps you went to a private package consigner who has the UPS truck drop by in the afternoon to pick up? Or maybe you went to a real UPS Service Center and not one of those franchised UPS Stores? If you didn't sign a waiver for declining their packing that should only bolster your chances as you appeal the claim. My sister (SC53) has also posted on this thread and I cannot add anything more to her shipping stories.

If it were me - I would be offering to send the guy in HI his money back against the damaged goods and dealing with this as my issue against the LBS and with UPS. I doubt that the buyer has privity with UPS to successfully win on a claim. Was the frame the only casualty here - wheels, etc. OK? Seems that if UPS took your insurance premium (and hopefully you did not sign a container waiver) then your remedy lies with them.

Maybe the guy in HI can take lots of didgies and then send the frame to Serotta for a repair estimate - which can be used in the claim process? Then the repair can be authorized once you get the insurance funds... No easy answer here and I'm sorry this happened to you.

Re: UPS, don't even get me started on how they held a package of mine in limbo for weeks in Louisville, KY while they were on strike in the summer of 1997! They finally allowed folks to come in and sign for (and pick up) packages that had been sitting in their distribution center for weeks while the strike went on.

[akelman]

As soon as I heard what had happened, I offered to send the buyer back his money. He initially hoped, I think, that there would be some other solution. After all, he got a great deal on the bike and was really excited to have it. Now, though, he's ready to take his money back. Which is only fair, of course. As you say, he has no culpability in any of this.

As for a waiver, I didn't sign one. The store that shipped this was not a UPS store, but a local mom-and-pop package place across from the bike shop. They do shipping for the bike shop all the time. That said, an appeal has been filed with UPS, and though the owner of my LBS still hasn't called me -- I grit my teeth while writing that -- the manager is being very nice. Oh, one more thing: yes, there was some damage to other parts on (actually off, in this case) the bike. It seems that the second wheelset, the one that was packed inside the main triangle and damaged the tubes, was pretty beaten up. So it appears there was a huge amount of pressure on the package during shipping. Does that mitigate the LBS's responsibility for putting the wheels in there without adequate packing? I don't know.

I have no idea how any of this is going to turn out. What I do know is that I'm going to find a lawyer in the next few days to help out. I don't want to sue anyone. I don't have the time, energy, or stomach for that kind of fight. But I suppose I will if I have to. My impression at this point is that both the LBS and UPS should share responsbility. But such Solomonic pronouncements aren't going to get me very far. I'll keep you all posted.

Ari

[djcwardog]

Ari,

If you stay on UPS through the appeal of your claim like my sister has, you will likely prevail. If UPS makes you whole, I'm not sure what issue would be left for you to take to the LBS. Still, based on what you have written, it sounds a bit cheesy of the manager to not respond to your communications. Integrity and ehtics are found in varying degrees in everyone you encounter. I think we perceive a low scale reading on this manager. LBS business elsewhere for you from now on?

Based on my experience with a UPS Store demanding that I sign a waiver, it would appear that this issue is being dealt with by UPS and its franchisees in order to limit their liability.

So...for the rest of us, if asked to sign a waiver, decline, leave the store and use another shipper. I also would not be surprised to learn that more and more bike shops will either cease offering a packing/shipping service, or that they will also require a signed waiver and release from a customer who wants this done. I have heard nothing of DHL in the replies to this thread. Do they handle bikes? Are people satisfied? What about the old days of using a Greyhound bus? Admittedly - difficult to do on a shipment to HI !!!!!

[malcolm]

I shipped an ottrott that I packed via DHL a year or so ago. They picked it up at my house and just billed me for the shipping. All was well, but I've shipped UPS many times all self packed and never had a problem. I recall a thread here last year about this time about the horrors of Fed-Ex and the differences between Fed-Ex Home and other versions of Fed-EX.
I suspect there isn't much difference between the big shipping companies and they probably all try and deny claims at least initially.

[CNY rider]

As for a waiver, I didn't sign one. The store that shipped this was not a UPS store, but a local mom-and-pop package place across from the bike shop. They do shipping for the bike shop all the time. That said, an appeal has been filed with UPS, and though the owner of my LBS still hasn't called me -- I grit my teeth while writing that -- the manager is being very nice. Oh, one more thing: yes, there was some damage to other parts on (actually off, in this case) the bike. It seems that the second wheelset, the one that was packed inside the main triangle and damaged the tubes, was pretty beaten up. So it appears there was a huge amount of pressure on the package during shipping. Does that mitigate the LBS's responsibility for putting the wheels in there without adequate packing? I don't know.

I have no idea how any of this is going to turn out. What I do know is that I'm going to find a lawyer in the next few days to help out. I don't want to sue anyone. I don't have the time, energy, or stomach for that kind of fight. But I suppose I will if I have to. My impression at this point is that both the LBS and UPS should share responsbility. But such Solomonic pronouncements aren't going to get me very far. I'll keep you all posted.

Ari

I'm a little late to this but I have to say that anyone who packs an expensive, custom bicycle with vulnerable carbon tubes in a box with 2 sets of wheels, with attached cassette does not have a freaking clue what they are doing. I don't care what company was used as carrier, this was an accident waiting to happen.
If you want to know how to pack a bike do a search and find Frank's post, with illustrative photos from years back. I bought a frame from him and it took me at least 45 minutes to unpack. It was bombproof and completely flawless out of the box. After I got that frame from him I printed out his guide to packing and I try to always follow it faithfully.

[Louis]

But CNY R, you seem surprised that Frank would be better than the LBS place. You forget that Frank has probably shipped more frames than they have... :D

[Dekonick]

LOL - Frank and his bikes...

Say - anyone ever tried expanding foam to pack frames? You know - the kind you buy at home depot to fill large gaps in walls...I would think if you wrap the bike in a trash bag and then fill the voids with this stuff your bike would be safe (especially if you take PVC pipe and hot glue it like DT suggests to stiffen up the box)

Thoughts?

Oh - on UPS - they banged up a bianchi I bought a few years back. Had to keep on UPS but they finally paid up.

Good luck!

Dek.

[Sandy]

I'm a little late to this but I have to say that anyone who packs an expensive, custom bicycle with vulnerable carbon tubes in a box with 2 sets of wheels, with attached cassette does not have a freaking clue what they are doing. I don't care what company was used as carrier, this was an accident waiting to happen.
If you want to know how to pack a bike do a search and find Frank's post, with illustrative photos from years back. I bought a frame from him and it took me at least 45 minutes to unpack. It was bombproof and completely flawless out of the box. After I got that frame from him I printed out his guide to packing and I try to always follow it faithfully.

Yeah, what CNY rider says about the packing. UPS certainly has some liability, but what about the LBS? Probably much more. I would think that both the LBS and UPS should be held liable, concurrently. Go after both at the same time, I would think.


Sandy

[weisan]

I am of the opinion that no lawyers are needed in this situation. Be persistent and keep up the pressure on UPS. Provide good documentation. They will relent. My claim was denied three times and waited for a month before the claim manager finally called and resolved the matter over the phone. It took less than 5 minutes.

[akelman]

So here's where things stand: the packing shop (not the LBS), which is the claimant in this case, filed the appeal with UPS. I have to assume that's better than having me do it, given that they do business with UPS all the time. As for documentation, I have lots of pictures, care of the buyer, who was kind enough to help out. On that note, I wish I had taken pictures before the bike was shipped. That said, the packing shop knows the condition of the box when it went out. Additionally, I'm really hoping to avoid a courtroom. But if it comes to that, California has what appears to be a decent small claims court, with a cap for $5,000. Because I sold the bike for less than that, small claims seems like the right venue for this case -- if it comes to that. And finally, for the moment, based on what seems to be very good advice, I'm holding off on getting a lawyer. No need to incur the expense. But if a suit becomes necessary, I'll get someone to help me out -- even if it's only in small claims court. I just don't have any margin of error here, so that seems like the smartest thing to do. Having said all of that, I'll keep you updated.

Thanks,

Ari

[akelman]

I just wanted to say, again, thanks to you all for your really helpful comments and support. As soon as I hear from UPS, I'll let you know. For the moment, though, I'm waiting for the local UPS rep to get back in touch with the packing shop. And the owner of the LBS, despite my ongoing pleas, will not call me back. Coupled with the fact that the last contact I had with the LBS manager was less friendly -- he pointed out that, despite the fact that they had packed the box up and had their name on the return address, I had "walked the package across the street to the packing shop" -- things aren't feeling very warm and fuzzy on that front.

Anyway, I'm grateful to you all.

Ari

[bostondrunk]

And the owner of the LBS, despite my ongoing pleas, will not call me back. Coupled with the fact that the last contact I had with the LBS manager was less friendly -- he pointed out that, despite the fact that they had packed the box up and had their name on the return address, I had "walked the package across the street to the packing shop" -- things aren't feeling very warm and fuzzy on that front.

Anyway, I'm grateful to you all.

Ari

Go to his shop and trip over a display. Then sue the focker. :beer:

[Frank]

I just wanted to say, again, thanks to you all for your really helpful comments and support. As soon as I hear from UPS, I'll let you know. For the moment, though, I'm waiting for the local UPS rep to get back in touch with the packing shop. And the owner of the LBS, despite my ongoing pleas, will not call me back. Coupled with the fact that the last contact I had with the LBS manager was less friendly -- he pointed out that, despite the fact that they had packed the box up and had their name on the return address, I had "walked the package across the street to the packing shop" -- things aren't feeling very warm and fuzzy on that front.

Anyway, I'm grateful to you all.

Ari

may have to do with them realizing they are probably going to be the culpable party in this damage claim. Without seeing the packing job and saying up front I don't know all the details on this, it sounds as though they didn't pack this bike and additional wheelset in a manner that meets the UPS, a guy who ships frames, or even the proverbial "man on the street" standard to prevent damage during transit.

I believe both UPS and FedEx have some very detailed information about the requirements for packing and shipping items, but even absent following those directions it doesn't seem prudent to ship a complete bike (especially a high end carbon tubed bike) with a potential saw (the exposed cassette on the additional wheelset) in the same box.

I wish you well, but I can see where the shipper could deny the claim based on improper packing. I hope that isn't the case for your sake, but if they don't choose to pay the claim it sounds as if your recourse is with the bike shop.