Compact crankset to replace Nuovo Record

[cgolvin]

Apologies since I felt certain this had been covered but my searches proved fruitless. I'll gladly take any answer, including links to relevant threads.

My brother has a beautiful, though well used, Vigorelli Masi that he bought new in Italy in 1972. He would like to put it back into the rotation but still does a lot of climbing and, even with a 28 on the back, a standard crankset just won't cut it (going down to a 39 from his current 42 is not enough).

So, what are the options for putting a compact crankset on an old frame like his? To be clear, while I understand that "get a triple" is one answer to the gearing problem, he specifically wants to stick with a double. FWIW, the rest of the group is all original Nuovo Record.

Thanks

[DRietz]

Does he want to maintain the aesthetic? If so, here ya go: https://velo-orange.com/collections/cranks/products/drillium-fluted-110-double-crankset-34x48t

But really, with a friction shifter, he can virtually use any crankset so long as he gets a chain to match the “speed” of the chainrings.

[AngryScientist]

IRD makes a very nice, inexpensive compact and sub-compact crankset. I have one in use and it shifts very nicely and is finished well, especially for a cranset that isn't bonkers expensive.

it would pair nicely with the NR stuff.

https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ird-defiant-compact-crankset-square-taper-cxmagazine-img_9158-edit_1.jpg

[dancinkozmo]

^ these are JIS taper....wouldnt he need to replace the BB as well ? (assuming its the original nr bb)

[cgolvin]

(dancinkozmo snuck in while I was posting, sorry for the dupe question)

God how I love Paceline. Thanks to you both.

Do I correctly understand that the Velo-Orange and IRD cranksets are compatible with his existing BB? (I think it's Campy but could possibly be Phil Wood). And if the answer is no and he'd have to buy a JIS taper BB, why is it that the IRD listings for these don't say anything about threading? I don't see Italian vs. English threading options…

[Ken Robb]

^ these are JIS taper....wouldnt he need to replace the BB as well ? (assuming its the original nr bb)

I was wondering this too. Assuming that the frame BB shell is Italian threaded what tapers are available on suitable bottom brackets? Does PHIL make Italian rings to go with his wonderful BBs?

[thunderworks]

If you're willing to replace the BB, you can use virtually anything on the Masi. You'd probably need an Italian threaded BB, but they're available and not very expensive. Sugino makes a beautiful sub-compact and FSA is now marketing "Adventure" cranks with 46 X 30 chainrings. All would work with the Masi provided you also bought the appropriate BB.

Really no limitations to getting a wide gear range . . .

[tv_vt]

Could go all the way to the present day and get a silver Potenza or Athena compact crank and matching bb. Bottom brackets are cheap and shouldn't be the limiting factor in this decision.

[cgolvin]

Could go all the way to the present day and get a silver Potenza or Athena compact crank and matching bb. Bottom brackets are cheap and shouldn't be the limiting factor in this decision.

There are no issues related to BB shell width? You can just buy the correctly threaded BB and shove a modern UT crankset on an old frame like this?

However, seeing as how he's sticking with the older derailleurs and 5/6 freewheel and chain, I thought that the modern chainrings wouldn't work with the older wider chain. Or do you address that with some added spacing between the chainrings?

[mhespenheide]

Velo-Orange, or IRD.

Or Compass or (polished silver) White Industries if you've got a perverse need to spend more money. But the first two would be a good match for NR Campy.

If you want to hunt through the used market, there are some early-90's 110mm and 94mm BCD mountain cranks that would work and be a reasonable match for the "rounded-off square" aesthetic. But I'd only do that to save money; I'd go with VO or IRD.


Personally, I'd change in a modern sealed Shimano BB with JIS taper.

[mhespenheide]

There are no issues related to BB shell width? You can just buy the correctly threaded BB and shove a modern UT crankset on an old frame like this?

However, seeing as how he's sticking with the older derailleurs and 5/6 freewheel and chain, I thought that the modern chainrings wouldn't work with the older wider chain. Or do you address that with some added spacing between the chainrings?

No issues with the BB shell width. Any of the square-taper BB's are 68mm for road bikes. (Until you get to BB30 and the like...)

I can't speak to chain width. There's no problem using a couple of speeds different (8-10, or 9-11). I don't know about 5/6 to 9.

[choke]

(dancinkozmo snuck in while I was posting, sorry for the dupe question)

God how I love Paceline. Thanks to you both.

Do I correctly understand that the Velo-Orange and IRD cranksets are compatible with his existing BB? (I think it's Campy but could possibly be Phil Wood). And if the answer is no and he'd have to buy a JIS taper BB, why is it that the IRD listings for these don't say anything about threading? I don't see Italian vs. English threading options…The taper of the BB and the BB threading are two different things. Generally speaking pretty much only Campy uses ISO taper BBs so if you're going with anything else then the BB would have to be changed. It should be no problem to get a decent JIS taper BB with Italian threads.

There are no issues related to BB shell width? You can just buy the correctly threaded BB and shove a modern UT crankset on an old frame like this?

However, seeing as how he's sticking with the older derailleurs and 5/6 freewheel and chain, I thought that the modern chainrings wouldn't work with the older wider chain. Or do you address that with some added spacing between the chainrings?Yes, a modern crank will drop right in.

I've never tried it but I imagine that the only thing that would happen with using a 6sp chain and an 11sp crank would be that it's more likely to rub the large chainring sooner when in the small chainring/smaller cogs combos. The inner width of 6-11sp chains is the same....only the outer width varies. The difference in outer width from a 6sp to 11sp chain is about 1.5-2mm (one source I found said 1.5mm, the other 2mm).

[tv_vt]

I've never tried it but I imagine that the only thing that would happen with using a 6sp chain and an 11sp crank would be that it's more likely to rub the large chainring sooner when in the small chainring/smaller cogs combos. The inner width of 6-11sp chains is the same....only the outer width varies. The difference in outer width from a 6sp to 11sp chain is about 1.5-2mm (one source I found said 1.5mm, the other 2mm).

You could split the difference and get a 9 speed chain to go with new 11 speed crank and 6 speed freewheel. I know 9sp chains work with the new cranks. Should work with older freewheel, too, I'd think.

[Ken Robb]

Will the NR front derailer work with a drop of 50-34 or even more?

[choke]

Will the NR front derailer work with a drop of 50-34 or even more?Yes. I've used a Record 1052/1 FD (pre-NR but basically the same) on a 30/46 and a NR FD with a 35/50.

[paredown]

Yes. I've used a Record 1052/1 FD (pre-NR but basically the same) on a 30/46 and a NR FD with a 35/50.

Good to know!

An alternative is the 'triplizer' where you added the third ring to a Nuovo Record crank..

TA used to make one, Jim Merz as well--but it looks like this would be the replacement:
http://www.redclovercomponents.com/store/p11/144_BCD_Triplizer%2C_42_Teeth.html

[NHAero]

I wasn't aware of that IRD super compact, that's a nice option. It only comes 46-30. Peter White carries 94 BCD TA chainrings in 42-50T outer and 29 or 30T inner (more choices for triples, with middle rings). What are you shifting the 46-30 with?
I stuck with my Sugino AT when I switched from a 3x9 to a 2x11. I use the outer and middle 110 BCD in a 44-33 combo, with the 11-34 cassette (with the 11 swapped to a 12T). I wouldn't mind a lower gear, say a 30 or even a 28T small ring.

QUOTE=AngryScientist;2436643]IRD makes a very nice, inexpensive compact and sub-compact crankset. I have one in use and it shifts very nicely and is finished well, especially for a cranset that isn't bonkers expensive.

it would pair nicely with the NR stuff.

https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ird-defiant-compact-crankset-square-taper-cxmagazine-img_9158-edit_1.jpg[/QUOTE]

[steamer]

Good to know!

An alternative is the 'triplizer' where you added the third ring to a Nuovo Record crank..

TA used to make one, Jim Merz as well--but it looks like this would be the replacement:
[url]http://www.redclovercomponents.com/store/p11/144_BCD_Triplizer%2C_42_Teeth.html[/ thurl]

+1. This is what I did.

The Red Clover triplizer is well made and allowd me to keep my NR crank.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4148/34976866933_516d0fb0b8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VhMzXT)DSC02158_zpshqdkvfbr (https://flic.kr/p/VhMzXT) by Kett-Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/82359664@N03/), on Flickr

[rccardr]

SR Apex triple crankset, 86 BCD, use the two outer ring mounts to make a compact. Looks kinda Campy, blends in well, shifts like a champ. Only 170, tho.

[nesteel]

+1. This is what I did.

The Red Clover triplizer is well made and allowd me to keep my NR crank.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4148/34976866933_516d0fb0b8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VhMzXT)DSC02158_zpshqdkvfbr (https://flic.kr/p/VhMzXT) by Kett-Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/82359664@N03/), on Flickr

Using a tripilizer on a crank drilled for a third ring?

[steamer]

Using a tripilizer on a crank drilled for a third ring?

Yeah, cuz getting rings that fit the bizzaro BCD, and fooling around with the extra long spacers and small bolts, just wasn't worth it. And after all that, the ring would still be too big. The BCD of the NR triples only allowed a 36T ring at the smallest*.

This pic here has a 32T ring on it (what I mounted initially since it was already sitting in a parts box), but that proved too big (as I thought it would). Riding a 28T now.

*only because the only rings that exist with the right BCD are 36T. I think the BCD is 100mm, and in theory that could allow a ring as small as about 31T. But good luck finding one.

[Hindmost]

+1. This is what I did.

The Red Clover triplizer is well made and allowd me to keep my NR crank.

What bottom bracket are you running here?

[steamer]

What bottom bracket are you running here?

It was a Shimano square taper I also had sitting in a parts box (yeah, I now I mixed JIS and ISO). I wish I could tell you the exact length, but I didn't measure before I put it on. I can tell you that it was pretty long, perhaps approaching 118-120mm or so, but I am not certain. In addition I had to use a 2mm spacer on the drive side to help get proper ring clearance to the stay. Of course I could have run a longer BB, but then the Q would increase as well (plus I would have had to buy a new BB). Running a small spacer on the drive side is a nice approach to save a few mm on Q.

I think there is some guidance on the Red Clover site (http://www.redclovercomponents.com/installation-notes.html), but I have to say, I couldn't quite reconcile the spindle lengths he was recommending over wjat I used. Red Clover is saying 115-116, and I know what I used was a bit longer + the spacer + the fact that I had an ISO crank on a JIS spindle (which further pushes the crank outboard).

The chainline isn't awesome - I can't really use the largest two or three cogs when in the big ring, but c'est la vie.

[buddybikes]

Many a people got machine shops to drill the crank arms and put 3rd chainring on. Or spend some real serious $$$ and find a old record triple crank

[Hindmost]

The chainline isn't awesome - I can't really use the largest two or three cogs when in the big ring, but c'est la vie.

Wow. So it it takes some fettling to make it work.

[djg21]

I installed a set of Praxis cranks with subcompact rings on my CX bike. They seem to work fine.

https://praxiscycles.com/road-crank-story/

[palincss]

Velo-Orange, or IRD.

Or Compass or (polished silver) White Industries if you've got a perverse need to spend more money. But the first two would be a good match for NR Campy.


Or, you could put it as "...if you want the absolute best and would appreciate nearly total freedom of choice in gear combinations."

https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/rhcrankrl.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Apologies since I felt certain this had been covered but my searches proved fruitless. I'll gladly take any answer, including links to relevant threads.

My brother has a beautiful, though well used, Vigorelli Masi that he bought new in Italy in 1972. He would like to put it back into the rotation but still does a lot of climbing and, even with a 28 on the back, a standard crankset just won't cut it (going down to a 39 from his current 42 is not enough).

So, what are the options for putting a compact crankset on an old frame like his? To be clear, while I understand that "get a triple" is one answer to the gearing problem, he specifically wants to stick with a double. FWIW, the rest of the group is all original Nuovo Record.

Thanks

Find a compact, find a 'Far Superior Italian Threading' BB/cups, install, shorten chain, lower front der and go ride. Many older Campag ones on the 'bay', both square taper, external UltraTorque and Powertorque..don't be afraid of the PT, nice crank, easy to work on.

[oldpotatoe]

I was wondering this too. Assuming that the frame BB shell is Italian threaded what tapers are available on suitable bottom brackets? Does PHIL make Italian rings to go with his wonderful BBs?

Yes..French and Swiss too...:)

[oldpotatoe]

There are no issues related to BB shell width? You can just buy the correctly threaded BB and shove a modern UT crankset on an old frame like this?

However, seeing as how he's sticking with the older derailleurs and 5/6 freewheel and chain, I thought that the modern chainrings wouldn't work with the older wider chain. Or do you address that with some added spacing between the chainrings?

I'd start to use a 9s chain..any, like KMC. Inexpensive and thinner so easier to 'find' a gear w/o adjacent cog noise. Works fine with any crank and friction shifters, even 11s.

[oldpotatoe]

No issues with the BB shell width. Any of the square-taper BB's are 68mm for road bikes. (Until you get to BB30 and the like...)

I can't speak to chain width. There's no problem using a couple of speeds different (8-10, or 9-11). I don't know about 5/6 to 9.

Far Superior Italian Threading is 70mm width..

[steamer]

Wow. So it it takes some fettling to make it work.

Yeah, it's not for mechanical tenderfoots, or those with OCD tendancies.

[cgolvin]

Find a compact, find a 'Far Superior Italian Threading' BB/cups, install, shorten chain, lower front der and go ride. Many older Campag ones on the 'bay', both square taper, external UltraTorque and Powertorque..don't be afraid of the PT, nice crank, easy to work on.

Thanks OP, as I was gathering insight from all the pals my eyes wandered over to the C40 I have for sale, which is equipped with a (PT) Athena compact, and I began to consider putting that on my Gios. My primary impediment is that, AFAIK, I don't have the necessary tool to remove and install a PT crankset.

I'm still planning to suffer through Eroica on my 52/42, but I'm tempted by this prospect…

Thanks too on the reminder and guidance on the chain shortening, I had only thought about having to move the FD…