Vintage Audio part 5 - Speakers

[William]

I know some discussion about speakers came up in the previous discussions, but i figured I would break out a separate thread...

I've got a buddy who is willing to let me adopt some BOSE 501 SERIES II speakers. Has anyone run these before? Comments? A little bigger than what I was looking for but maybe. I'm currently running some smaller JBL speakers as well as a pair of Dayton audio speakers.


What are you driving and what do you recommend? Mrs William will not be keen on big tower speakers :no: so there is that to consider. :)










William

[gasman]

I had a buddy that had of those exact speakers. I was a bit underwhelmed and friend ended up liking them but he said they were just okay and didn’t really live up to their hype.

[IFRider]

and since you are in New England, good chance to find them locally. Highly recommend the KIII's if you can get towers. Very accurate, warm and amazing for imaging.

The KIIIs (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Snell-Acoustics-type-K-iii-vintage-speakers/183203353235?hash=item2aa7c55293:g:9gAAAOSwl4Va52h X) are not big towers and sound amazing. Many if not all original suffer foam rot. Good news (really good news) is that you can get factory tuned replacements from Atomic HIFI (https://www.atomichifiandtv.com/snellpartspricelist.html). I am running a whole home theater with vintage snells and replaced all the drivers, sound is better than anything I demo'd at a reasonable price.

Warren

[mcteague]

Be advised that Bose is a dirty word in the hi-fi world. They have never been known for accurate sound.

Tim

[yinzerniner]

As anyone can recommend a set of wilsons or kharmas but i think that kind cashesh is better spent on houses and gold bullion.

Also depends on your sources. Cd, lossless digital, tubes, lp, solid state, Spotify, etc.

If you're looking at the pit of diminishing returns (roughly $750-1000/ speaker) paradigm, snell, dynaudio, klipsch, def tech, svs, kef, Martin Logan, etc are all great choices. Adding a clean sub for 500 helps immeasurably to fill in the sound and oomph.

If you're worried about depreciation get a set of B&Ws and call it a day.

Further down the rabbit hole you go .......

[kingpin75s]

Speakers are an area where technology has seemingly advanced the most. I really prefer new technology in this one area and run a mix of decades for other components.

IMHO the Revel Concerta2 M16 bookshelf loudspeakers are a great value in small starter HiFi speakers. New or a clean used pair.

If you want to really fill in the sound at some point 1 sub is fine, but stereo subs where you can control the gain and crossover (to as low as maybe 45-50) at a minimum really can create a cohesive 3-way sound with bookshelf speakers. Do not underestimate the effect of stereo subs for stereo listening.

[Ken Robb]

Bose 401s are what we use as rear speakers in our surround system and that's no real test of sound. OTOH they sit behind our seating area, the drivers are almost at ear level and each one has drivers on two planes which works well for surround sound. Leslie had these before we met and she thought they were fine. She is a music teacher with perfect pitch so I don't think they could be awful.

As to Bose' reputation with audiophiles: When the first 901 system came out I borrowed one to audition at home. At first I was impressed by the width of the soundstage on orchestral recordings. Then I tried some solo vocals. They sounded like the singer had a mouth 12 feet wide. :-)

I think Bose has always concentrated on providing a very open diffuse sound and eliminating any "boxiness" from the reproduction of music. This may account for a reaction from some listeners who like to "dissect" all the details of a performance. I admit to being somewhat in the latter group.

I loved Magnaplanars and Quad Electrostatics.
BUT when I brought them home to audition I found that their wonderful sound was so "beamy" that they had to sit in the middle of my room and point just one spot that got their best sound.

I ended up with Vandersteen Model 2s that I ultimately traded in for 2Ci Signatures. They provide me with open sound and great detail.

If your pal wants to give you the Bose or, at least, lend them to you to try, what do you have to lose? Lots of people like them and you may be one of them.

[rnhood]

Whatever you can afford in the Magnepan line is your best deal, assuming you're not going to push them against the wall. I've owned three pair, and a number of other high end speakers. The Magnepans are the real deal. Even the cheapest ones sound very good.

[Bob Ross]

I've got a buddy who is willing to let me adopt some BOSE 501 SERIES II speakers.

Friends don't let friends listen to Bose.

Seriously.

Some good suggestions already in this thread, but again, since you didn't mention a budget, it's hard to target a recommendation. I will offer this: One of the best values in hi-fi loudspeakers I've come across in my >40 years in the industry (and by "value" I mean performance-per-dollar) is the Monitor Audio Silver Series. They currently make three different floorstanding models and one or two bookshelf variants, but for at least the past decade anything in MA's Silver series was a real sleeper, the sweet-spot in the price/performance game. For the price their sound is amazing. If they sold for twice as much as they did I believe they would still be competitive, and quite possibly still be considered amazing sounding. I sure hope mid-2000s is not considered "vintage" audio, but if you can find a 10-year-old pair of MA Silver floorstanding speakers they will probably be a steal. And your wife will like them better than Bose 501s.

If you really want something more vintage-y, look at ADC [edit: ADS, not ADC], B&W, Klipsch, or KEF. If you can find a ~35-year-old pair of Boston Acoustics BA200s whose drivers haven't disintegrated, snatch those up, they'll kill.

[rodcad]

Heresy. Small but seriously mighty.

[pjm]

I am, right now, listening to Sarah Jarosz on my Totem “The One” stand mounted monitors along with a Totem Lightning subwoofer. Power comes from a Simaudio Moon 340i integrated amp. Source is an Arcam CD36 CD player using the Moons built in DAC. Cable is all Nordost.

The thing I really love about just about all the Totems I’ve heard is that they sound great just about anywhere in the room. It’s not necessary to be sitting right in a sweet spot. Imaging is amazing.

[Ken Robb]

I finally got off my butt and checked our Bose speakers. They are 401s and work great as we use them for the rear speakers in our surround system. I never tried them as main speakers.

[duff_duffy]

I thought Bose sounded good until I swapped them for a set of Pinnacle Classic Gold Speakers. Wow, my ears are still thanking me. Try out a pair or two of speakers in your home, its amazing what a good set of speakers can sound like.

[joosttx]

Dyna audio special 40's are good looking, high quality, bookshelf speakers. If you want to go crazy then the Devore Gibbon 3XL are at the top of the food chain.

[Peter B]

I'm running a pair of Infinitesimal's driven by an NAD D3020 as my laptop sound system. Have a pair of Qbs that today serve as stands for a current pair of Wharfedale Denton 80th driven by the same amp. Good enough for my small space and tinnitus.

[parris]

I'm running a pair of PSB B-25's right now. They do a decent job but due to setup and the room I have them in which is quite dead I've been thinking of something else.

[rwsaunders]

A lot of the newer speakers pack a lot of sound in a small space and they're very efficient to power up. I'm in the speaker stone ages though, as I'm running a pair of OLA's (original large Advents) connected to a Nakamichi Receiver 1. If you have the room, the OLA's are hard to beat for the money. You can find them on the market with refoamed woofers in the $200-250 range. Either way, pass on the Bose.

[William]

Thank you for the suggestions folks, the Bose were a "hey, if you want them..." kind of thing. I appreciate the offer but I'll politely pass for a few reasons. I'm not looking to have to dig up any of the Gold Bullion I may or may not have buried in the basement to pay for a new set of speakers, really looking for good bang for the buck units in new or suggestions/experience for more vintage units.

Towers wouldn't bother me but I do have to live with Mrs. William and unless I want to set it up out in one of the barns mid-sized to bookshelf sized is what I'm looking for. Do bookshelf units these days have decent bass response? I don't need ground thumping but good bass in proportion to midrange and high would be preferable.









William

[glepore]

Ohm 4's on my main system. Nothing matches the warmth and open sound.

[OtayBW]

I'm no audiophile, but I vividly remember the feeling I got back in the day of hearing Bose 901s. Maybe not the most technically 'articulate' speaker as some have alluded, but there was a certain feeling of spaciousness, or concert hall 3D vibe that nothing else touched. This talk makes me want to unpack my old turntable system that I've had in boxes for years....

[Road Fan]

I know some discussion about speakers came up in the previous discussions, but i figured I would break out a separate thread...

I've got a buddy who is willing to let me adopt some BOSE 501 SERIES II speakers. Has anyone run these before? Comments? A little bigger than what I was looking for but maybe. I'm currently running some smaller JBL speakers as well as a pair of Dayton audio speakers.


What are you driving and what do you recommend? Mrs William will not be keen on big tower speakers :no: so there is that to consider. :)










William

I have a few sets of Thiel CS2.

[Road Fan]

Dyna audio special 40's are good looking, high quality, bookshelf speakers. If you want to go crazy then the Devore Gibbon 3XL are at the top of the food chain.

Related to Dynaco?

[daker13]

and since you are in New England, good chance to find them locally. Highly recommend the KIII's if you can get towers. Very accurate, warm and amazing for imaging.

Like Warren, I'm also a big fan of Snell speakers, especially the early, Peter Snell designed versions. Peter Qvortrup from Audio Note (my main speakers) is pretty up front about his entire line being based Peter Snell's designs; they used to be nearly identical, not as much anymore. I have original K's (excellent) and JII's, and I had EII's at one time. The EII's are pretty easy to find. The holy grail is the A series, but you have to have lots of room, and lots of power (and I'm a tube guy).

I haven't heard the Snell KIII's but the KII's (post Peter Snell) are very nice and were designed by Kevin Voecks, who went on to design a lot of very well regarded and expensive speakers.

Towers wouldn't bother me but I do have to live with Mrs. William and unless I want to set it up out in one of the barns mid-sized to bookshelf sized is what I'm looking for. Do bookshelf units these days have decent bass response? I don't need ground thumping but good bass in proportion to midrange and high would be preferable.

It's going to depend on the speakers, but you're definitely going to want to get good stands. You can get pretty good bass with bookshelf speakers and good stands, though. Or you can get a sub, but that's not really my thing.

Regarding Bose, I think some of their early speakers can sound okay in the right system, but there's an audio nerd joke: Amar Bose saw Paul Klipsch (who designed horn speakers) at an audio engineer's convention, and he formed his hands into a trumpet and put them around his mouth and said, "Hello, Paul!" And Paul Klipsch put his own hand OVER his mouth and replied, muffled: "Hello, Amar!"

[C40_guy]

Bose speakers are a strange phenomenon. Some people love them, others hate them. Not quite sure why...but it is what it is. Long ago I sold hifi, and briefly worked at the Tweeter store just a couple of miles from the Mountain (Bose headquarters). People walked into that store knowing they wanted Bose.

If you love Bose speakers, they're a great deal. If you don't, there are many other speakers out there.

Speakers are highly subjective. Everyone's ears are different.

I'll never forget the first time I heard a pair of Maggies. Friend of mine sat me down, put a female vocalist on the turntable and said "just listen."

I fell in love. The clarity and depth of the music was phenomenal.

35 years later I still haven't owned a pair. 20 years ago I bought electronics in preparation for owning Maggies (Adcom separates) but never had the room or wifely support for dedicating space to planar loudspeakers.

So I have B&W speakers. They do the job for me, and frankly, I don't do much critical listening these days. They just work, and they don't require much fuss...just like my Record 10 components. :)

[joosttx]

Related to Dynaco?

Dynaudio, I misspelled the brand name. I think they are a company in Denmark. Google to confirm

[Ken Robb]

I think ADS made some wonderful bookshelf speakers. I still have some L500s in my bedroom system. The good news now is that they had butyl surrounds rather than the foam ones that disintegrate so you needn't worry about re-foaming the woofers.

[mcteague]

I have a few sets of Thiel CS2.

I used to have the CS2s, then CS2 2 and then 2.3s. Ultimately ended up with Linkwitz Labs Orions which got me off the merry go round for good.

Tim

[martl]

Dynaudio, I misspelled the brand name. I think they are a company in Denmark. Google to confirm

Dynaudio made some *very* nice monitor-type small speakers called "Contour", back when i was into that stuff they were my personal holy grail. They still are being made in the third generation now and receive enthusiastic reviews, By no means they are cheap though..

Only problem i see is with vintage speakers is that they age and will need that foam rubber ring replaced, but it can be done at home or there are specialists ho offer the service.

@rwsanders, could you elaborate what you think is the quantum leap new speaker construction took?

It may be a bit off-topic, but recently i shopped for a small speaker system to go with the computer and smartphone. The Yamahas i wanted were out of production, so I ordered a set of bluetooth-enabled Logitechs, similar pricetag ~100€. They were test-winners in that pricerange everywhere i looked, were recommeded as a replacement for the Yamaha and were praised for their sound quality. Truth to be told, they sounded like excrement, and i located a NOS set of the Yamahas; They aren't Hifi, but at least they don't make me cringe. I wonder if today's HW testers judge by their ears rather than the feature sheet?

[19wisconsin64]

There have been some great improvements in audio technology since the mid-70's when I got hooked as a teenager into the audiophile world. There are now high resolution streaming services that bring a renewed life to recorded music, and to bring out the most of the more highly detailed sound modern speakers are needed.
You can even get a cheap digital Pyle amp for about $100 (ok, shoot me for saying that) and run a decent high end pair of modern speakers that are well priced like ELAC, and have an amazing system. I run a pair of ELAC Uni-Fi UB5, which are $499 new (and you can get used for less) with a Tandberg 3012A amp acquired from a fellow forum member. The sound is breathtaking, you are there, wow this sounds great good.
The older speakers are often reissued these days with updated drivers, or you can run an older pair. Chances are these will sound fine, but for better sound the newer speakers are just amazing.
And who's the wackadoo who started the stereo thing? Run the speakers diagonally in a room, you'll be amazed what happens. Sound stage opens up, and you'll be in the music, vs. sitting in front of the music. You can even run older speakers like that, and just envision yourself in a record shop like in the movie High Fidelity.

[Dino Suegiù]

People will make fun of me I guess, but the Andrew Jones Pioneer components (I do not remember the model numbers) are really excellent for the money, and I had some Advent and B&W speakers before. I still have the B&W but the Pioneer impressed me. But the room and other components and personal taste matter more than any abstract recommendations.

If this thread is about Bose only, I never heard them in my rooms, so I cannot say definitively, but I thought they did not sound so special at all when I did hear them. It is so subjective though.

If the Bose were locally free to try, though, of course I would try them. Why not? At least ypu learn a new thing by direct experience and not other opinions only.

[DRZRM]

I run some midsized B&Ws (DM630s) that I got on craigslist in Boston (they replaced some huge Dalquest DQ-10s that I inherited from my dad, but those needed way more power than my Luxman could offer, and they now need to be rebuilt). I love the B&Ws and have heard good things about their studio monitors (DM5 or 602s) which are widely available for decent prices (craigslist is your friend).

That said, I'd take the Bose speakers and test them out for a bit. What spend money if you don't need to.

[Dino Suegiù]

I run some midsized B&Ws (DM630s) that I got on craigslist in Boston (they replaced some huge Dalquest DQ-10s that I inherited from my dad, but those needed way more power than my Luxman could offer, and they now need to be rebuilt). I love the B&Ws and have heard good things about their studio monitors (DM5 or 602s) which are widely available for decent prices (craigslist is your friend).

That said, I'd take the Bose speakers and test them out for a bit. What spend money if you don't need to.
The B&W 602 are the ones I have, really excellent.

I do think the Pioneer are very good for the money. They are a great bargain.

Of course why not try the Bose, if nothing just to know how they sound in that personal environment?

[verbs4us]

Another B&W endorsement. Running bookshelf speakers (one size down from the 601.) They do require some volume to come into their own, but do punch above their weight class. Driving with an old McIntosh 5300 amp and a Thorens turntable. Best speakers I ever heard were Harbeth reference, not sure of the model. The US distributor is in New Hampshire. Will require a second mortgage.

[yinzerniner]

Thank you for the suggestions folks, the Bose were a "hey, if you want them..." kind of thing. I appreciate the offer but I'll politely pass for a few reasons. I'm not looking to have to dig up any of the Gold Bullion I may or may not have buried in the basement to pay for a new set of speakers, really looking for good bang for the buck units in new or suggestions/experience for more vintage units.

Towers wouldn't bother me but I do have to live with Mrs. William and unless I want to set it up out in one of the barns mid-sized to bookshelf sized is what I'm looking for. Do bookshelf units these days have decent bass response? I don't need ground thumping but good bass in proportion to midrange and high would be preferable.

William

Still haven't given even a rough idea of absolute budget. "Bang for the buck" starts to go down precipitously in bookshelf speakers once you're above $2000 for new, $1500 for used, so if your budget is above that the world is your oyster in terms of "bang for buck" choices, but if your budget is only $700 then the list gets much shorter.

As for bass response, lots of bookshelf speakers these days can provide very even response down to 50hz or so, but ONLY when paired with good stands or coupled as much as possible to the floor. Decent response below 40Hz for even the best bookshelf speakers isn't feasible because of the limitations of low frequency sound production. That being said, world class bass from a small footprint subwoofer can be had for less than $500, especially on the used market. I'd take a $1200 set of bookshelves, $200 stands and a $300 subwoofer over a $2k set of floorstanders any day of the week.

As for recos, lots of amazing ones made from other members that I totally forgot about. For midrange (sub $1k) Axiom, SVS, Def Tech, Klipsch, Boston Acoustics, PSB, even JBL. For high-end bookshelves ($2k plus) Dynaudio should be top of anyone's list, as should Revel, Magnepan, Thiel, KEF, Sonus Faber, Amphion, and of course B&W. And of course there are tons more out there.

[Ken Robb]

Since we all seem to agree that bookshelf speakers need stands to sound good will that combination be any more acceptable to your Minister of the Interior than towers of the same height?

[djg]

Since we all seem to agree that bookshelf speakers need stands to sound good will that combination be any more acceptable to your Minister of the Interior than towers of the same height?

I think that's a good question, although I'd qualify "to sound good" to mean to do what they are capable of doing, or close to it -- good music played through decent bookshelf speakers might be enjoyed, certainly, even if the speakers are placed on actual bookshelves, and in some ways might be more forgiving of placement than many full range speakers -- at least for some bookshelf speakers.

There are good quality budget towers with relatively small footprints from many of the lines listed. KEF and B&W, among others, with the smaller Vandersteen not too big either, and maybe all three reasonable new for some models and, obviously, less expensive used if you can find them in good condition. Elac has some towers that are inexpensive brand new, and very well-reviewed, although I've not heard them. Music Direct still has some of the Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 available new marked down to 699 a pair -- very well received at just about double that price before the closeout, and with these I actually have a pair -- good imaging, very nice mid-range, and pretty easy to drive, in case you don't have the best amp on hand.

The new KEF bookshelf speakers sound very good at about 1,200 a pair (give or take?) and the older KEF reference bookshelf speakers should be much less expensive on the used market. B&W also make several good bookshelf speakers that don't cost an arm and a leg. Cheaper? Way cheaper, the little Wharfedale Diamond 220 are worth checking out, definitely, if that's your budget. The recent Andrew Jones Elac bookshelf speakers get rave reviews at budget prices -- some are cheap, really -- but I haven't heard these in person. More than the Elac, but still in everyday budget land are Monitor Audio.

[timsmcm]

Anything Sonus Faber with a nice tube amp. Very natural and organic. Great imaging and sound stage. The more you can spend the better they get.

[Ken Robb]

Anything Sonus Faber with a nice tube amp. Very natural and organic. Great imaging and sound stage. The more you can spend the better they get.
I have a Sonus Faber for my center channel between my Vandersteens. It was a loaner while my local shop ordered a Vandersteen center speaker in the finish I wanted. The dealer warned me that I might not want to give it back and he was correct. :)

[Peter P.]

Be advised that Bose is a dirty word in the hi-fi world. They have never been known for accurate sound.
Tim

That's been my experience. As some others have mentioned, the spaciousness of the Bose 901's is something to behold.

Heresy. Small but seriously mighty.
You're preaching to the choir here, brother! However, I did discover the hard way, buying them before hearing them, that they don't play any lower in frequency than most bookshelf speakers including the bookshelf speakers they were replacing; down to 50Hz. However, they DO have a seriously muscular sound once the volume is upped. They are brutally efficient. I caved and added a passive subwoofer to fill in the next 1/2 octave down.

...really looking for good bang for the buck units in new or suggestions/experience for more vintage units.

...Do bookshelf units these days have decent bass response? I don't need ground thumping but good bass in proportion to midrange and high would be preferable.
William

Check out craigslist. The aforementioned Klipsch Heresy's can be had for $500 a pair which is a very good price, and you won't have to worry about rotting foam surrounds. Craigslist has a lot of vintage and other speakers at very good prices. If you were looking for a floorstanding model, I'd tell you to RUN to buy the Klipsch Quartets (https://providence.craigslist.org/ele/d/excellent-klipsch-quartet/6708394255.html) being offered. I had a pair and while I didn't keep them, it wasn't because of the sound. These things just plain manhandle music, and the price is very good.

Bookshelf speakers will only reach down to 50Hz at best. Once you hear a speaker that reaches lower, you won't want to go backwards. If you must use bookshelf speakers, you can at first try them on stands (which won't do anything for the bass, it'll just save you money), but I'd recommend you add a subwoofer, even if it's a small 10 incher.

Here are my Heresy's next to a pair of Klipsch Quartets I once owned, to give you a sense of size. I bought my Heresy's on craigslist for MUCH less than the $2k price they sell for now.

[Bob Ross]

Bose speakers are a strange phenomenon. Some people love them, others hate them.

I think it's fair to say the people who love them are mostly folks unconcerned with "accuracy" and the people who hate them are mostly folks who want something more closely resembling genuine "fidelity". But there is a lot of bandwagon-jumping and advertisement-parroting that contributes to both camps.


Long ago I sold hifi, and briefly worked at the Tweeter store just a couple of miles from the Mountain (Bose headquarters). People walked into that store knowing they wanted Bose.

Heh-heh... in the early 1980s I worked at the Tweeter Etc. shop in Chestnut Hill MA, and we had a motto about selling Bose speakers:

TDC

If a potential customer came in asking about Bose speakers you could try to take the audiophile equivalent of a Moral High Road and explain why any number of speakers would be a better (i.e., more accurate, realistic-sounding) choice than Bose...but that would be 30-60 minutes of your life that might be better spent banging your head against a wall.

The more expedient approach would be to say "Will that be cash or charge?", ring up the sale, and watch another satisfied customer march out of your shop with the Bose speakers they came in looking for. TDC.

Take Da Cash

[William]

Check out craigslist. The aforementioned Klipsch Heresy's can be had for $500 a pair which is a very good price, and you won't have to worry about rotting foam surrounds. Craigslist has a lot of vintage and other speakers at very good prices. If you were looking for a floorstanding model, I'd tell you to RUN to buy the Klipsch Quartets (https://providence.craigslist.org/ele/d/excellent-klipsch-quartet/6708394255.html) being offered. I had a pair and while I didn't keep them, it wasn't because of the sound. These things just plain manhandle music, and the price is very good.




I spotted those on the local CL the other day and have been thinking about going to check them out. A little bigger than Mrs. W would probably like....but it's better to ask for forgive.... ;)








William

[C40_guy]

Heh-heh... in the early 1980s I worked at the Tweeter Etc. shop in Chestnut Hill MA, and we had a motto about selling Bose speakers:

The Chestnut Hill shopper was a more "discerning" customer. We didn't sell many Bose speakers. Probably more KEF. :)

We must have just missed one another...I was there '82-83, working for Paul S!

[chrisroph]

There is a saying in audio, no highs, no lows, must be bose. I'd also add no accurate mid range. Bose has brilliant marketing.

I'll second totems. I run totem signature 1s in my second system. They are excellent for what they cost. Try audiogon for second hand equipment.

[Bob Ross]

We must have just missed one another...I was there '82-83, working for Paul S!

Yep, Paul S still worked for the company, he had recently been promoted from Chestnut Hill store manager to corporate head of training/recruiting or something like that. He was the guy I interviewed with in '83.

In 2014 I was out at a factory training clinic for a speaker manufacturer and their Director of Sales had worked at the Tweeter store in Dedham in the 1990s; he told me that Paul got out of the audio business when Tweeter went belly up and now sells exotic handbuilt knives!

[DarkStar]

Be advised that Bose is a dirty word in the hi-fi world. They have never been known for accurate sound.

TimOften spelled Blose.:banana:

[Ozz]

Find some nice Polk RTA 12's and call it a day....

Get lots of spare fuses.....

:cool:

[DarkStar]

I am, right now, listening to Sarah Jarosz on my Totem “The One” stand mounted monitors along with a Totem Lightning subwoofer. Power comes from a Simaudio Moon 340i integrated amp. Source is an Arcam CD36 CD player using the Moons built in DAC. Cable is all Nordost.

The thing I really love about just about all the Totems I’ve heard is that they sound great just about anywhere in the room. It’s not necessary to be sitting right in a sweet spot. Imaging is amazing.
Very nice system:banana:

[warren128]

I've been in audio nirvana for around 20 years or so with my Magnepan MMG. I had them set up in special listening area, and when sitting in the sweet spot, the soundstage and imaging are unbelievable.

Then a few years ago, after I stopped using that room for listening to music, I had the crazy idea of moving the MMG into my living room where the MMG would be used for both stereo listening and home theater.

My task was to get my wife to agree to this because she already thought that my bookshelf speakers on stands were already too obtrusive to the living room.

It turned out that the MMG took up about as much space as the bookshelf speakers w/stands, and they looked much better in our eyes (more elegant, being single, very flat panels). So I got the okay to move them into the LR.

After some fiddling with their positions (they need space behind them), I was able to make them sound very nice for all the intended uses (stereo listening, background music, home theater). I run them with a subwoofer, which really helps on the rumbling deep noises required by HT.

[Ken Robb]

I have read some opinions that the capacitors in crossover networks deteriorate and so affect the sound of older speakers. I suppose this may be true. For some brands there are independent experts who will even "improve" the performance of crossovers that haven't begun to fail and are still good as new.

I suppose we should factor in the expense and inconvenience of replacing the caps when contemplating the purchase of older speakers. OTOH removing/replacing capacitors is pretty easy for anyone with a soldering iron or gun. Some of the experts/gurus will sell parts and instructions to upgrade crossovers.

[polyhistoric]

Grabbed a killer deal on a McIntosh integrated and that drove the rest of the decisions (budget and sound). Had to pair with the right speakers. It was politely suggested that towers (even little ones) were not welcome in our home, narrowing the search to bookshelves on stands (even though they are the same height and footprint...).

Did a ton of A/B testing and listening. I thought I would love B&W's and had fond memories of a friend's NAD system with a set of little CDMs. I tested a set of CDM NT Se (basically the older mini-8 series) and thought they sounded muddy (to my surprise). The lower end 6 series felt like elevated dorm speakers... the quality just wasn't there. The newer B&W 705 monitors sounded great, very articulate and very pricey. Paradigms through a Classe amp were way too bright and tweeter forward. Focal bookshelves lost the mid-range to a bass-forward sound. Revel were pretty much exactly what I wanted, but way out of the price range.

Ended up with a set of Monitor Audio Silver 100. 8" woofer gives plenty of bass for my little space. The pairing with the Mc keeps the sound warm and they seem to love the heaps of power on offer and give a full sound stage even at lower volumes. Monitor seems to have won some mid-fi converts and get accolades. I've also heard similar raves about Energy speakers. Will also add that I loved the KEF ls50, but the significant other couldn't take the Tron look of the speakers.

[sevencyclist]

I just "sold" my ProAc Response 2.5 ($4500 when new in 1995) to local audio store to sell second hand for $100. My wife got tired of me needing to pull out the speakers into the room for spacial clarity and asked me to get rid of them.

I hope someone can use the speakers and enjoy great sound.

[Bob Ross]

Ended up with a set of Monitor Audio Silver 100.


Heh-heh... See post #9
:banana:

[spacemen3]

You really can't go wrong with the brands listed. I have some Magnepan MG-1.6QR speakers, each sitting atop a Velodyne F-1200 servo-controlled subwoofer, and hooked up to a Classé Audio integrated amp. The subs are fast-hitting and the dual setup allows me to run them at a low volume to avoid movie sub "boominess" while filling in the missing low-end. Anyhow, the sound was delicious in a dedicated listening space. The joy has been lost, however, in the drop-ceiling basement of my new house. I've considered selling the set-up to fund more bikes. ;)

[jmoore]

Audio dorks are worse than bike dorks when it comes to equipment. Camera dorks are right up there too.


I'm in recovery on 2 of the 3. I don't particularly care about cameras.

[daker13]

I just "sold" my ProAc Response 2.5 ($4500 when new in 1995) to local audio store to sell second hand for $100. My wife got tired of me needing to pull out the speakers into the room for spacial clarity and asked me to get rid of them.

I hope someone can use the speakers and enjoy great sound.

Do you live anywhere near Rhode Island, by any chance? I would happily pay $100 for those speakers.

I'm pretty sure ProAc's are worth a lot more than that on the used market. There are a lot of people who like that British sound, and Spendors, Harbeths, Rogers, and ProAcs all hold their value pretty well. I've had Spendor BC1's and SP1's in my systems over the years; nice speakers.

[yinzerniner]

I just "sold" my ProAc Response 2.5 ($4500 when new in 1995) to local audio store to sell second hand for $100. My wife got tired of me needing to pull out the speakers into the room for spacial clarity and asked me to get rid of them.

I hope someone can use the speakers and enjoy great sound.

When my parents were downsizing about ten years ago I ended up selling a pair of huge floorstanding KEF's that they purchased for $9K in the mid-80's for roughly $300, so the depreciation math was pretty similar.

For replacements, got a set of Revel bookshelves that are still there today and that kicked the crap out of the old KEF's by a good margin with the exception of bass. Whether it was because of the old capacitors starting to effect the crossover, or the tweeters and mid-range cones getting old I'll never know, but doing a side to side with a 180gram pressing of Pet Sounds on a VPI/Trichord/Sonic Frontiers/Krell setup the difference was palpable.

[mcteague]

Find some nice Polk RTA 12's and call it a day....

Get lots of spare fuses.....

:cool:

:confused:I heard a pair of Polk RTAs long ago, think it was the first iteration. My friend and I wanted to audition the B&W 801s that we’re next to them. After just a short time we looked at each other and said the B&Ws sounded like crap. Turns out the shop guy had the Polks hooked up! They may have improved but I always considered Polk a small step up from Bose.

I also remember Bose suing Thiel Audio over their use of the number 2.2 for the CS 2.2 speaker. Well, you can’t trademark a number but Bose had tons more money to throw at lawyers so Jim Thiel renamed the speaker CS 2 2!

Tim

[pjm]

:confused:I heard a pair of Polk RTAs long ago, think it was the first iteration. My friend and I wanted to audition the B&W 801s that we’re next to them. After just a short time we looked at each other and said the B&Ws sounded like crap. Turns out the shop guy had the Polks hooked up! They may have improved but I always considered Polk a small step up from Bose.

I also remember Bose suing Thiel Audio over their use of the number 2.2 for the CS 2.2 speaker. Well, you can’t trademark a number but Bose had tons more money to throw at lawyers so Jim Thiel renamed the speaker CS 2 2!

Tim
I remember that story. I have a pair of early 2.2’s (with the decimal point) and Bose could only dream about making speakers that sounded as good as the Thiels.

[woodworker]

It's true, audiophiles are even worse than those with bike addictions.

In this area, though, you should look to what the commercial studios used when recording albums. From Wikipedia:

"The JBL 4320 series studio monitor was introduced through Capitol Records in Hollywood and became the standard monitor worldwide for its parent company, EMI. JBL's introduction to rock and roll music came via the adoption of the D130 loudspeaker by Leo Fender's Fender Guitar company as the ideal driver for electric guitars.

...The 1970s saw JBL become a household brand, starting with the famous L-100, which was the best-selling loudspeaker model of any company to that time. The 1970s also saw a major JBL expansion in the professional audio field from their studio monitors. By 1977, more recording studios were using JBL monitors than all other brands combined, according to a Billboard survey. The JBL L-100 and 4310 control monitors were noteworthy, popular home speakers."

The JBL studio monitors and L-series speakers were probably the finest speakers ever made. That's not me talking--it's the people who depended on sound quality for a living.

[jtbadge]

IDK about that rule of thumb. Sure, JBLs are great, but tons of studios have used Yamaha NS10s since the late 70's because they sound so bad and the engineers wanted to make recordings that would sound good regardless of what they were played back on.

[pjm]

Pro studio monitors are kind of a different breed. Usually they are active designs (self powered) and designed for nearfield listening.

[Ozz]

:confused:I....Tim

They were more than adequate for a small dorm room hooked up to a Hafler DH-200 amp in 1983....hence the joke about getting spare fuses!:eek:

:beer:

[jghall]

Audio dorks are worse than bike dorks when it comes to equipment. Camera dorks are right up there too.

This^. As already seen, you're going to get so many different suggestions it would make some heads spin. And like bike stuff, everybody is their own movie critic.

As mentioned, start with the Bose to see what you think. No sense sending unnecessary money. Especially when it could become bike money.

By chance they do not float your boat, start with budget first.

I'd also mention to not necessarily buy into the whole stand vs. tower thing. For example Totem Arro speakers, very nice speakers for what it's worth, are extremely small and thin, and be more pleasing than something on a stand.

There are also other alternatives such as in-wall. Or even small footprint stuff like Gallo, Orb. etc.

Good luck in the hunt.

[Ken Robb]

I know what a real piano sounds like. We have a grand in the music room that is tuned twice a year. So when I hear recorded piano music sound good when reproduced on a given system I know that system is pretty accurate. When I listen to rock on electric instruments I can't tell how much distortion might be a deliberate part of the musicians' performance and how much might be created in the recording or playback systems.

[daker13]

When my parents were downsizing about ten years ago I ended up selling a pair of huge floorstanding KEF's that they purchased for $9K in the mid-80's for roughly $300, so the depreciation math was pretty similar.

For replacements, got a set of Revel bookshelves that are still there today and that kicked the crap out of the old KEF's by a good margin with the exception of bass. Whether it was because of the old capacitors starting to effect the crossover, or the tweeters and mid-range cones getting old I'll never know, but doing a side to side with a 180gram pressing of Pet Sounds on a VPI/Trichord/Sonic Frontiers/Krell setup the difference was palpable.

Some components hold their value, some don't. I'm not surprised a $9k pair of KEF's from the mid-80s sold for $300, but I AM surprised a pair of Proac's from the mid-90s were only worth $100. There are tons of components from the 70s, 80s and 90s that really didn't sound very good when they were new and sound even worse now. Spendors are considered great speakers if you like the 'British sound' and Proac's are pretty close to that, although I think their monitors sounded better than their floor standers. Glad that you're happy with your Revels though, that's the important thing.

[yinzerniner]

It's true, audiophiles are even worse than those with bike addictions.
In this area, though, you should look to what the commercial studios used when recording albums. ....
That's not me talking--it's the people who depended on sound quality for a living.

This is NOT a very good way to go about testing speakers for home usage. It would be like saying you should only ride a time trial bike since that's what the people who make their living going fast depend on.

And in the years since the mid-70's the mantle of most widely-used nearfield studio monitors passed from the JBLs to Yamaha NS10s, which were chosen not necessarily because of their fidelity but rather because it was REALLY HARD to make something sound good on them; if your tunes sound good on the NS10s they'll sound good on everything! Also, the NS10s were and are pretty cheap.

In the last ten years for passive nearfield studio monitors the ones I see used the most are B&W 805s and Amphion One18s, and the Neumann KH310A for powered. All are very revealing (sometimes to a fault) but that's what works in professional environments.

[TonyG]

I went down this slippery slope a few years back. I decided to finally get what would sound really good. It was some of the best money I ever spent!

My only advice is don't pay attention to anyone; just pay attention to what you hear and what you like. It wasn't productive for me to chase down speakers based on reviews. I wasted a lot of time and money doing that. Now the best speakers I have ever heard are in my living room. I 'm not sure a review existed at the time.


AND most important; a good room!

[djg]

When my parents were downsizing about ten years ago I ended up selling a pair of huge floorstanding KEF's that they purchased for $9K in the mid-80's for roughly $300, so the depreciation math was pretty similar.



Do you recall the model KEF speakers? I sold those back in the '80s when I was in grad school -- I don't recall the reference line including anything that expensive, although there may well have been something we decided not to carry. The drivers, surrounds, or crossovers from the old KEFs might not be what they used to be -- I have a pair of the less expensive C80s that I'm about to leave out by the curb any day now -- they held up credibly a good long while but now they need work that I'm not prepared to do.

That's neither here nor there for the OP, given what he's looking at -- just curious.

[William]

Thank you for all your suggestions folks, I'm going to demo some Klipsch units today. :banana:









William

[yinzerniner]

Do you recall the model KEF speakers? I sold those back in the '80s when I was in grad school -- I don't recall the reference line including anything that expensive, although there may well have been something we decided not to carry. The drivers, surrounds, or crossovers from the old KEFs might not be what they used to be -- I have a pair of the less expensive C80s that I'm about to leave out by the curb any day now -- they held up credibly a good long while but now they need work that I'm not prepared to do.

That's neither here nor there for the OP, given what he's looking at -- just curious.
Don't remember the exact model, but I do remember they were part of the Reference line, the top model. Wasn't exactly sure if the price included cables or not, but they were well above $6K. They looked kind of like Wilson Watt Puppies, with the top tweeter and midrange assembly able to rotate so as to adjust toe-in on the fly instead of having to move the super heavy wooden assemblies. And the bass from them was out of control.

Thank you for all your suggestions folks, I'm going to demo some Klipsch units today. :banana:
William
Klipsch might just be the standard for bang for buck in the less than $500 category, almost like the Camry for audio. Good thing is they're widely available so plenty of places to try them out. That being said, since they're widely available try to find a place where they have a dedicated listening room as opposed to a big box store when auditioning, will make a world of difference.

[MattTuck]

You should check out Bose, if it hasn't already been mentioned. lol.

[C40_guy]

You should check out Bose, if it hasn't already been mentioned. lol.

Might want to reread post #1. :)

[Bob Ross]

They looked kind of like Wilson Watt Puppies, with the top tweeter and midrange assembly able to rotate so as to adjust toe-in on the fly instead of having to move the super heavy wooden assemblies. And the bass from them was out of control.

Sounds like the KEF 105.4 or 105.2. Absolutely lovely sounding speaker in the right room with the right amp.

105.4
https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1377967-kef-1054.jpg

105.2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/oradba69/img_2323_zps410bb434.jpg

[djg]

Sounds like the KEF 105.4 or 105.2. Absolutely lovely sounding speaker in the right room with the right amp.

...

Oh sure, I remember those -- not at 9k, and maybe not at 6, but the fact is that I don't recall the 1980s retail prices and I could be way off. I still have a pair of the little KEF Reference 102 bookshelf speakers from around that time -- maybe 1986 or so?

[William]

I'm sure these Revel Ultima Gem speakers sound amazing...but they look like a telephone booth to me. :)






William

[William]

In scanning the web and reading about how different speaker designers and mfr's attempt to make speakers realistically recreate the sound to make you feel like you are right there at the concert/show/performance..it got me thinking. The goal seems to be to realistically recreate that sound and energy that you feel being there at a performance large or small.

Question:
To that point, don't most performers use PA/horn style speakers on stage to be able to A.) Play loud, and B.) Clearly transfer their sound to the audience (in most cases)?

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?

In reading different audio blogs and watching videos that touch on the subject I get the sense that most so called audiophiles look down on these types of speakers. This seems odd to me since the sound/dynamic you are looking to recreate is often rendered through them. I can't remember who said it but it makes me thinking of a quote I heard in a video...

"Are you listing to your equipment through music, or are you listening to music through the equipment?"

Of course I could be off base here but I figured I would run it through some of the experienced ears that frequent this place.








William

[avalonracing]

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

[kingpin75s]

I'm sure these Revel Ultima Gem speakers sound amazing...but they look like a telephone booth to me. :)

William

Those old Gem speakers are fantastic. A close friend, and one who's system I consider a reference point, had those powered by some Great Northern Sound Modded Audio Research Classic 120s and paired with a set of Velodyne 18" subs (set with a very low crossover). His room was purpose build to the golden ratio, is well conditioned and his sound is amazing. Note that he has his pulled out almost to the middle of his listening room with the subs on the front wall.

That said, he just replaced the Gems with the new Revel M126Be speakers and he is very happy. Speaker technology does get better and better and Revel does have a great engineering department.

[kingpin75s]

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

I assumed the same before walking the path. Now I believe that the difference in true HiFi is so stark and clearly different from what most systems provide, that I do not believe standard age based loss plays any role with respect to enjoying or hearing great HiFi. It is much harder to find someone with or build a truly great system, than it is to enjoy it once you are there.

Fortunately the price point does keep dropping as technology advances and you can get into great sound for much less. That said, most of the long time (and I will stick to my blue collar hobbyist friends) people I know who are deep into this (think decades), have systems that retail in the $40-50K range. I do clearly mean retail as they run a mix of new and used equipment from the 90s through current. IMHO the marginal gains above that point get very slim.

[Ken Robb]

In scanning the web and reading about how different speaker designers and mfr's attempt to make speakers realistically recreate the sound to make you feel like you are right there at the concert/show/performance..it got me thinking. The goal seems to be to realistically recreate that sound and energy that you feel being there at a performance large or small.

Question:
To that point, don't most performers use PA/horn style speakers on stage to be able to A.) Play loud, and B.) Clearly transfer their sound to the audience (in most cases)?

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?

In reading different audio blogs and watching videos that touch on the subject I get the sense that most so called audiophiles look down on these types of speakers. This seems odd to me since the sound/dynamic you are looking to recreate is often rendered through them. I can't remember who said it but it makes me thinking of a quote I heard in a video...

"Are you listing to your equipment through music, or are you listening to music through the equipment?"

Of course I could be off base here but I figured I would run it through some of the experienced ears that frequent this place.








William

I don't think any true audiophiles judge their home systems by comparing them to so-called "live" concerts where the electrified music is blasted at the audience at painful levels after being shaped/modified through mixer boards. That sound probably has little to no resemblance to a true non-amplified/equalized performance.

[tuscanyswe]

I will never be an audiophile. And these are not vintage but they are based on a nolder speaker at least..

To me they sound amazing, better than various much more expensive systems ive heard.

I struggle to see why i would ever need more than 2 of these with the simplicity of cloud speakers and the sound they deliver. Pretty great and they dont take up that much space either..

http://perfektgruppen.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Teenage-Engineering-OD-11.jpg

[William]

I don't think any true audiophiles judge their home systems by comparing them to so-called "live" concerts where the electrified music is blasted at the audience at painful levels after being shaped/modified through mixer boards. That sound probably has little to no resemblance to a true non-amplified/equalized performance.


Not exactly what I meant, I'm not just talking about ear shattering death metal. Almost any performance from any group, individual, orchestral, or symphonic is amplified unless it's extremely small and intimate...and even then it often is. If you are talking studio it probably is as well unless acoustic, but then often the audio engineers work the sound so is it a true representation? How often do acts sound the same live as their studio work?

The point I was trying to get to is that the comments like"they sound so good you feel you are right there in the audience" seems odd to me because if you were right there in the audience you would most likely be listening to amplified sound through PA/Horn style speakers. :confused:







William

[yinzerniner]

Not exactly what I meant, I'm not just talking about ear shattering death metal. Almost any performance from any group, individual, orchestral, or symphonic is amplified unless it's extremely small and intimate...and even then it often is. If you are talking studio it probably is as well unless acoustic, but then often the audio engineers work the sound so is it a true representation? How often do acts sound the same live as their studio work?

The point I was trying to get to is that the comments like"they sound so good you feel you are right there in the audience" seems odd to me because if you were right there in the audience you would most likely be listening to amplified sound through PA/Horn style speakers. :confused:







William

I think your deductive reasoning is a little off, and I'll tell you why.

PA/Horn speakers are not designed for sound reproduction, but for sound amplification. The concert venue (ie shape, materials and acoustics), speaker placement and mixing board is responsible for reproducing and shaping the tonality, soundstage, and imaging of what the audience hears. Comparing commercial horn/PA speakers is almost like comparing a spotlight to an IMAX projector.

And how a band sounds "live" vs "studio" is a totally different beast altogether.

[Bob Ross]

PA/Horn speakers are not designed for sound reproduction, but for sound amplification. The concert venue (ie shape, materials and acoustics), speaker placement and mixing board is responsible for reproducing and shaping the tonality, soundstage, and imaging of what the audience hears.

That's true, and that's the primary reason why audiophiles [sic] don't use actual professional sound reinforcement speakers, and why only in a tiny niche of this already tiny niche hobby do folks use horn speakers (generally in the ultra-low-power Single Ended Triode camp of extotica).

But it's perhaps worth noting that:
A) The old venerable classic Klipsch speakers were functionally identical to the state-of-the-art PA speakers that were available at the time
B) A few current residential speaker manufacturers are making products that have more in common with professional sound reinforcement systems than with typical hobbyist audiophilia: check out Pro Audio Technology (http://proaudiotechnology.com/), Alcons Audio (https://www.alconsaudio.com/cinema-sound/) (who actually started in the pro sound world and expanded into the home theater/audiophile world), and the Meyer Sound Bluehorn (https://meyersound.com/product/bluehorn-system/) (also a pro company venturing into residential theater/2-channel)
C) Some of the PA systems being employed these days don't use compression drivers in horns but rather ribbon drivers in waveguides, thus having more in common with contemporary audiophile systems than previously imaginable.

But basically it comes down to distance: Unless your listening room is the size of a hockey rink you don't need -- or even want -- a loudspeaker that's designed to throw high-SPL sound to a listener >100' away regardless of how high-fidelity that sound may be.

[djg]

What sucks is that by the time most of us can afford any decent equipment we have long since lost a bit of our hearing. Too bad I couldn't afford a $90,000 system when I was 17 years old. I sometimes think that this is the reason that music isn't as important to us when we get older. It just doesn't "hit the same notes"... well, technically frequencies, for us.

I have nothing against 90,000 dollar systems or folks who can and do afford them. Some of my own gear is more expensive than many would consider reasonable, even if I fall way the heck short of a 90k spend.

One observation: I’m no spring chicken at 58, but I’ve heard live music ranging from pop to Americana to bluegrass to classical in the past year, and I’ve seen plenty of people who seem to be my age and older listening to live music. No, aging does not tend to help HF hearing...and yet...

One over the top judgement: Really? There’s much one might appreciate about good gear properly set up, but if you cannot enjoy recorded music absent a 90,000 dollar system — or a 9,000 dollar system — then either something’s gone horribly wrong or it was never about music to begin with.

[daker13]

If this is the case, then why don't more audio enthusiasts/audiophiles like PA/horn style speakers for listening? Wouldn't that better recreate the actual sound they claim they are after?


Well, a lot of audiophiles have a different paradigm of what live music is. For instance, anyone listening to chamber music, orchestral music, or acoustic jazz (50s-60s) doesn't want to listen to music through a PA system.

A more general question is, why don't more audiophiles use horn speakers? And the answer to that is, many people think they sound honky, squawky, and that they're fatiguing.

This isn't ALL horn speakers, and a lot of it depends on your amplifier; it's much less of an issue if you're using a SET.

While I really like how dynamic horn speakers sound, how alive they sound, most of the ones I've listened to ultimately leave me with the feeling that I'm being beaten over the head with the music. They're bright. Some of the more expensive horn speakers are supposed to be better when it comes to this.

One of these days I'm going to buy a pair of Lowther drivers and build myself some cabinets. I've never heard them, but they're supposed to be amazing. I'd pair it with a few watts of SETs or a Pass amp.

I know a bunch of people who really like Klipsch speakers and I've had a couple pairs of them at different times. They're often playing in my friend's record store and they always sound good. But, to me they sound bright. One of the things I like about the classic Snells and Audio Notes is that they sound pretty dynamic but are not fatiguing. I also have a lot of love for the BBC sound (Rogers/Spendor/Harbeth) but I find it can be a little laid back.

[William]

That's true, and that's the primary reason why audiophiles [sic] don't use actual professional sound reinforcement speakers, and why only in a tiny niche of this already tiny niche hobby do folks use horn speakers (generally in the ultra-low-power Single Ended Triode camp of extotica).

But it's perhaps worth noting that:
A) The old venerable classic Klipsch speakers were functionally identical to the state-of-the-art PA speakers that were available at the time
B) A few current residential speaker manufacturers are making products that have more in common with professional sound reinforcement systems than with typical hobbyist audiophilia: check out Pro Audio Technology (http://proaudiotechnology.com/), Alcons Audio (https://www.alconsaudio.com/cinema-sound/) (who actually started in the pro sound world and expanded into the home theater/audiophile world), and the Meyer Sound Bluehorn (https://meyersound.com/product/bluehorn-system/) (also a pro company venturing into residential theater/2-channel)
C) Some of the PA systems being employed these days don't use compression drivers in horns but rather ribbon drivers in waveguides, thus having more in common with contemporary audiophile systems than previously imaginable.

But basically it comes down to distance: Unless your listening room is the size of a hockey rink you don't need -- or even want -- a loudspeaker that's designed to throw high-SPL sound to a listener >100' away regardless of how high-fidelity that sound may be.

Thanks, and that gets me closer to "getting it". I've come across a few article's and video channels that say it certainly is doable to run audiophile amps with modern pro audio speakers and get good sound. That said and to your point, I'm not sure I would want to try it...I like the plaster walls in our house.:)







William

[pobrien]

I have Klipsch Heresy III speakers and Klipsch Forte II speakers and find them to be excellent for me.

I run them off modern Yamaha amplifiers A-S1000 and A-S2000 (S for silver and each about 100 w/channel). They are very good amplifiers.

I am not an audiophile. I enjoy music. I think there is an important point made by William regarding what speakers are/were used at concerts and that they are what we heard and that is what is authentic.

What comes out of a studio could be quite different. They are both good.

Klipsch has released a new version of the Forte speakers (III?) modelled very closely (or identical) to the Forte II speakers.

To me that says a lot as there has to be the demand for Klipsch to do this.

I think I need a set of the latest Forte speakers!

Patrick

[Jeff N.]

I'm no audiophile, but I vividly remember the feeling I got back in the day of hearing Bose 901s. Maybe not the most technically 'articulate' speaker as some have alluded, but there was a certain feeling of spaciousness, or concert hall 3D vibe that nothing else touched. This talk makes me want to unpack my old turntable system that I've had in boxes for years....
I think 901's are the worst speaker ever to come down the pike. For my money, Paradigm speakers are the way to go. They're gonna cost more but well worth it, IMO.

[William]

I am not an audiophile. I enjoy music. I think there is an important point made by William regarding what speakers are/were used at concerts and that they are what we heard and that is what is authentic.

What comes out of a studio could be quite different. They are both good...


Patrick


Yes, that is getting to the point I was trying to make.

Even if a live event is mixed and EQ'd before it comes out of the pro-audio speakers that musicians use it is still the sound that people experience. Wouldn't a good recording run through a decent amp and pro-audio speakers be closer to that mark than audiophile speakers? Not that it would sound bad, just possibly different.






William
PS: Also a Klipsch fan.:)

[yinzerniner]

Even if a live event is mixed and EQ'd before it comes out of the pro-audio speakers that musicians use it is still the sound that people experience. Wouldn't a good recording run through a decent amp and pro-audio speakers be closer to that mark than audiophile speakers?


Again, the answer is NO.

Here's a very good explanation (from here (https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/pa-speakers-in-home-theater.351371/#post-4458671)) I found on the googs for why PA / Professional loudspeakers are not the best for critical listening environments, and will not give you the best listening experience:

"PA speakers have different design priorities than home speakers. They have to be build tough enough to bounce around in the back of a van going from one gig to the next, and they have to be able to play for hours on end at ear splitting levels, gig after gig, year in and year out, as well as outdoors in heat, cold and humidity.

On top of that, PA speakers are not designed to sound their best at a distance of 8-15 ft., as is the situation for home listening.

Way down the list of priorities is sound quality. PA speakers that sound good enough to be in a residential hi-fi installation are few and far between, and the ones that do will cost you many times more than a home speaker that sounds as good as it does."

Basically reiterating what everyone else has said.

You don't use a $700 Taylor Made driver to putt, so why use speakers designed for toughness and volume when you're accurately trying to recreate a live listening environment?

As to what is "authentic," the sound you hear at a concert is yes, authentic. But remember it's only an audio sound wave. That audio sound wave that hits your eardrums at the concert is a slurry of the already-mixed sound signal turned into waves created by the loudspeakers, which in turn are further altered by distance and listening environment conditions. PA/Horn loudspeakers aren't as good at recreating that wave as dedicated high fidelity loudspeakers, as PA/Horn loudspeakers are not designed for that task. Yes, some PA/Horn loudspeakers can do a decent job of replicating the sound wave, but at any price point a dedicated hi-fi speaker will do better.

[kingpin75s]

and why only in a tiny niche of this already tiny niche hobby do folks use horn speakers (generally in the ultra-low-power Single Ended Triode camp of extotica).


Do not have much direct experience with horns. But this certainly resonates with my general audio knowledge and research into complementary areas. The only time I have considered high efficiency horn style speakers was when I was considering what a build would look like based on a Nelson Pass First Watt style Amp. Very low power SE as you describe. That would be my base formula for a low power dining room setup if I ever got the chance.

[DarkStar]

I am, right now, listening to Sarah Jarosz on my Totem “The One” stand mounted monitors along with a Totem Lightning subwoofer. Power comes from a Simaudio Moon 340i integrated amp. Source is an Arcam CD36 CD player using the Moons built in DAC. Cable is all Nordost.

The thing I really love about just about all the Totems I’ve heard is that they sound great just about anywhere in the room. It’s not necessary to be sitting right in a sweet spot. Imaging is amazing.
Very nice system:banana:

[Peter P.]

I have Klipsch Heresy III speakers a...I think I need a set of the latest Forte speakers!
Patrick

I think it's safe to say ANY speaker that has a long history in the market must be popular enough, and sound good enough, that the manufacturer continues to leverage that popularity.

The Klipsch Forte is one example. In fact, that could probably be said for the entire Klipsch Heritage line.

Another litmus test for me is the frequency a speaker appears on the used market i.e., eBay and craigslist.

I'm inclined to agree with William's logic on horn loaded speakers. I think the reason they're not as ubiquitous as you might expect partially due to marketing. Other brands might appear to be copying Klipsch designs. Another reason would be size. A fully horn loaded speaker is larger and heavier than most people prefer to have in their homes.

[parris]

I've been looking at speakers lately. I don't "need" anything much like I don't "need" another bike, firearm, or camera.

I think that part of the horn speaker opinion is that due to momentum in the market and information that's been passed along for years there are many people that will automatically say that a horn doesn't sound "good" without giving a good listen. It's just a thought and may be completely off.

[Peter P.]

I've been looking at speakers lately. I don't "need" anything much like I don't "need" another bike, firearm, or camera.

I think that part of the horn speaker opinion is that due to momentum in the market and information that's been passed along for years there are many people that will automatically say that a horn doesn't sound "good" without giving a good listen. It's just a thought and may be completely off.

Your thoughts aren't off.

Audio beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and every speaker has its fans. Buy what sounds good to you-but make sure they have horns! :rolleyes:

A Klipsch Fan

[William]

I've been looking at speakers lately. I don't "need" anything much like I don't "need" another bike, firearm, or camera.

I think that part of the horn speaker opinion is that due to momentum in the market and information that's been passed along for years there are many people that will automatically say that a horn doesn't sound "good" without giving a good listen. It's just a thought and may be completely off.


If you are "looking", some minty Klipschorns (https://providence.craigslist.org/ele/d/klipschorn-and-heresy/6749455618.html) as well as "Salesman's Sample" Klipsch Heresy's" this just came up on my local CL. Mrs. William would never go for bringing the Klipschorns into the house but maybe I could get away with the Heresys...:eek:

Funny thing is, perusing some other audio forums there are some where the opinion is reversed on pro-audio/horn speakers and they are more on the pro side. Most of the audiophile videos that I've seen that diss horns usually demonstrate that by cupping their hands around their mouths, inflect their voice, and say "they sound like this". So far the ones I've heard (cupping my hands around my mouth) don't sound like that. :) Just goes to show that "sound" for the most part is subjective.









William

[pobrien]

Perhaps Mrs. Williams would warm up to the Heresy speakers if you had some of her favorite music playing when she 'notices' them in your home...

From there, I would go with some Forte III speakers. And a fine turntable!

It was good to hear thoughts from Peter P and parris.

[William]

Perhaps Mrs. Williams would warm up to the Heresy speakers if you had some of her favorite music playing when she 'notices' them in your home...

From there, I would go with some Forte III speakers. And a fine turntable!

It was good to hear thoughts from Peter P and parris.


Better to ask forgiveness than....

You don't know Mrs. William...she's a pack of DY-NO-MITE when she wants to be.:D







William

[daker13]

If you are "looking", some minty Klipschorns (https://providence.craigslist.org/ele/d/klipschorn-and-heresy/6749455618.html) as well as "Salesman's Sample" Klipsch Heresy's" this just came up on my local CL. Mrs. William would never go for bringing the Klipschorns into the house but maybe I could get away with the Heresys...:eek:


Pretty cool listing. The guy sounds prickly enough to be an audiophile. 10-15 years ago it was fairly easy to stumble across NOS European tubes... I know those times are mostly over, but has it really gotten to the point where a guy can say, I have a bunch of new old stock tubes, $2000 and bring your own tester?

[kingpin75s]

Pretty cool listing. The guy sounds prickly enough to be an audiophile. 10-15 years ago it was fairly easy to stumble across NOS European tubes... I know those times are mostly over, but has it really gotten to the point where a guy can say, I have a bunch of new old stock tubes, $2000 and bring your own tester?

Yes. It seemingly has gotten to that point, but in my opinion most of the expensive NOS tubes I have heard, sound rolled off to me. They often have a blacker background but at the expense of being rolled off. Not saying there are not great NOS tubes out there by any means, but I would never presume they are better. Rare is just rare and expensive, not always better.

I really like the Genalex Gold Lions for modern tubes and surprisingly have had great luck with cheap JJs as well. They have replaced some very expensive NOS tubes I received with my systems or had in place for a bit on a borrow to buy where the owner wanted his "special" tubes back.

[glepore]

So, I'm making a venture into SET- I'm going to need an efficient speaker as my Ohm 4's are both too power hungry and a complex load. So, assuming that I want to do this in a "budget" fashion, what would the braintrust here recommend either used or diy? Something infinite baffle or? Drivers? How do the modern Klipsch designs sound (Crutchfield is a a dealer and has a local retail outlet)?

[DarkStar]

Anything Sonus Faber with a nice tube amp. Very natural and organic. Great imaging and sound stage. The more you can spend the better they get.
Yes!

[DarkStar]

[QUOTE=jmoore;2434120]Audio dorks are worse than bike dorks when it comes to equipment. Camera dorks are right up there too.
True:banana:

[DarkStar]

IDK about that rule of thumb. Sure, JBLs are great, but tons of studios have used Yamaha NS10s since the late 70's because they sound so bad and the engineers wanted to make recordings that would sound good regardless of what they were played back on.
NS10s were just horrible, but they served their purpose.

[yinzerniner]

So, I'm making a venture into SET- I'm going to need an efficient speaker as my Ohm 4's are both too power hungry and a complex load. So, assuming that I want to do this in a "budget" fashion, what would the braintrust here recommend either used or diy? Something infinite baffle or? Drivers? How do the modern Klipsch designs sound (Crutchfield is a a dealer and has a local retail outlet)?

Modern Klipsch would pair up very nicely with a SET setup, as they are incredibly efficient and very sensitive to tube swapping, so you'll be able to dial in the sound you want by some simple experimenting.

A good amount of people love the Double Impacts by Tekton. I've never heard them, and the design is quite polarizing, but others swear by them and they make an 8ohm model with very high efficiency.

Sonus Faber, as someone suggested above are quite amazing speakers but in my experience they LOVE MOAR POWARR! But seriously, the more headroom an amp has the better the sound opens up. At lower volumes the soundstage is somewhat limited, again IMO. Others might feel differently.

[DarkStar]

Well, a lot of audiophiles have a different paradigm of what live music is. For instance, anyone listening to chamber music, orchestral music, or acoustic jazz (50s-60s) doesn't want to listen to music through a PA system.

A more general question is, why don't more audiophiles use horn speakers? And the answer to that is, many people think they sound honky, squawky, and that they're fatiguing.

This isn't ALL horn speakers, and a lot of it depends on your amplifier; it's much less of an issue if you're using a SET.

While I really like how dynamic horn speakers sound, how alive they sound, most of the ones I've listened to ultimately leave me with the feeling that I'm being beaten over the head with the music. They're bright. Some of the more expensive horn speakers are supposed to be better when it comes to this.

One of these days I'm going to buy a pair of Lowther drivers and build myself some cabinets. I've never heard them, but they're supposed to be amazing. I'd pair it with a few watts of SETs or a Pass amp.

I know a bunch of people who really like Klipsch speakers and I've had a couple pairs of them at different times. They're often playing in my friend's record store and they always sound good. But, to me they sound bright. One of the things I like about the classic Snells and Audio Notes is that they sound pretty dynamic but are not fatiguing. I also have a lot of love for the BBC sound (Rogers/Spendor/Harbeth) but I find it can be a little laid back.
I use very large horn speakers, no squawk or honk, but then I've done extensive mods to the cabinet, horn, and XO to eliminate audible problems.

[daker13]

Yes. It seemingly has gotten to that point, but in my opinion most of the expensive NOS tubes I have heard, sound rolled off to me. They often have a blacker background but at the expense of being rolled off. Not saying there are not great NOS tubes out there by any means, but I would never presume they are better. Rare is just rare and expensive, not always better.

I really like the Genalex Gold Lions for modern tubes and surprisingly have had great luck with cheap JJs as well. They have replaced some very expensive NOS tubes I received with my systems or had in place for a bit on a borrow to buy where the owner wanted his "special" tubes back.

I have KT66 Gold Lions in my MC 240 and they are quite good. I think a lot of it has to do with the individual component and some of them do sound much better with with current production tubes, probably because they were 'voiced' with such tubes in the first place, so I definitely agree with you on that. I don't do much tube rolling these days, and I think new tubes have come a long way in the last 15 years. But a good Mullard or Telefunken or RT can really make a difference in a preamp... it just adds a certain ambience.

I have a ton of tubes around here, but I really need to get my tube tester sorted. It really has gotten too expensive. You used to be able to get a matched pair of NOS tubes for $70-80, and it was worth it. I love vacuum tubes.

[mcteague]

After living with open baffle dipole speakers, there is no going back to “monkey coffins”, AKA box speakers.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web3.htm#ll

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf

Tim

[Ken Robb]

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

[Bob Ross]

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

1. Don't remember (and/or not sure if there's a good metric that's independent of the equipment they're running in),
2. yes, and
3. yes.

fwiw every piece of tube equipment I've ever owned wound up with power tubes needing replacement sometime within the ~5-10 year period, and preamp tubes not needing replacement before the ~10 year mark.

[Peter P.]

So, I'm making a venture into SET- I'm going to need an efficient speaker as my Ohm 4's are both too power hungry and a complex load. So, assuming that I want to do this in a "budget" fashion, what would the braintrust here recommend either used or diy? Something infinite baffle or? Drivers? How do the modern Klipsch designs sound (Crutchfield is a a dealer and has a local retail outlet)?

I can't speak to the modern Klipsch designs. My attitude is the used market is a much better place to buy speakers. You'll get a better value than buying new.

Budget + efficient = used Klipsch.

Small in size and price: Heresy's. 94dB/W/m. @ $450-$650/pr. This is what I own.

Larger but play lower, and even more efficient than the Heresy's: Quartets (harder to find), and the venerated, longstanding, and popular Forte's (can often be found at the same used price as Heresy's).

I bought a pair of Quartets for $250!, and they would rip your lungs out with 1 Watt input. Forte's are a big brother; 97-99dB/W/m. There's currently a pair in my state that are tempting at $550 a pair.

The Klipsch kg series are a good, non-Heritage series alternative. I prefer the passive radiator models such as the kg 3.2, 4, 4.2 (bought them for $325-play lower than the Heresy's and just as efficient), and 5.2's.

There's a pair of Forte's for sale in Philly (https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/d/speakers-hifi-components-vcrs/6728197069.html) at a very good price. Don't even think of asking to go lower. It would insult the owner and I wouldn't blame them. Here's another pair (https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/d/klipsch-forte-speakers/6717112821.html) at a fair price.

Can't afford the Forte's or these Heresy's (https://cnj.craigslist.org/ele/d/klipsch-heresy-speakers/6740915372.html)?; kg4's were popular (https://cnj.craigslist.org/ele/d/klipsch-kg4-speakers-perfect/6724960532.html), will save you money, have a smaller physical size than Forte's or Quartets, and got rave reviews in their day.

[glepore]

Thanks Peter. If I still lived in Philly, I'd be all over those Fortes. The kg4's look great too. The best I've been able to do locally is 750 for a nice set of Heresy's, so I'll keep looking...

Do you use a craiglist aggregator to search? Which one?

[Ken Robb]

There have been a few pairs of Heresy speakers around San Diego for $400-500 lately. The $400 pair had plain birch cabinets.

I read quite a few different opinions as to the desirability of the original vs. II vs. III versions. Lots of Klipsch fans think modification of crossovers by Krites and replacement of original tweeter/mid-range diaphragms with titanium ones is worthwhile. I haven't heard any of these tweaked versions.

[daker13]

What is the life cycle of various vacuum tubes? Do they improve as they break in from brand new, perform at their peak for X hours and then begin to decline? Do some amps have adjustments (bias?) to extend the time of peak performance?

Bob's estimates match my experience... small signal tubes last a long time, and power tubes less so--probably good to replace around the five year mark, depending on use. I've never had a tube tester in 20 years of tube listening, so I just replace some when I think about it.

[Peter P.]

Thanks Peter. If I still lived in Philly, I'd be all over those Fortes. The kg4's look great too. The best I've been able to do locally is 750 for a nice set of Heresy's, so I'll keep looking...

Do you use a craiglist aggregator to search? Which one?

I normally use my local craigslist. Here's one U.S. nationwide craigslist (http://www.searchcraigslist.org/) search I've used.

There have been a few pairs of Heresy speakers around San Diego for $400-500 lately. The $400 pair had plain birch cabinets.

I read quite a few different opinions as to the desirability of the original vs. II vs. III versions. Lots of Klipsch fans think modification of crossovers by Krites and replacement of original tweeter/mid-range diaphragms with titanium ones is worthwhile. I haven't heard any of these tweaked versions.

Yeah; I think there's too much drama with the differences between the various versions. I don't go for the "upgrades" mentioned either. I think the only reason they're done is the Klipsch Heritage series speakers are easy to modify by hobbyists vis a vis, changing crossover components and drivers. I swear the first thing you'll hear if you buy a pair of used Klipsch's is, CHANGE THE CAPACITORS!, without having tested the existing capacitors. Sheesh.

The Heresy I's can be had for $400-$500 a pair, and the raw birch was sold so the buyer could stain or paint them to their desires. The raw birch was nicely finished as-is. The Heresy II's are made with MDF which is supposedly denser than birch making a less resonant cabinet. The usually sell for more on the used market. Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with either version, especially considering new Heresy's go for $2k. The raw birch cabinets are easy to refinish, and the veneered versions relatively easy to repair or re-veneer if desired; both reasons the speakers are popular, besides their performance.

[William]

Boston Acoustics were mentioned a few times in the thread, anyone have any experience or knowledge on their Reference Series speakers?







William

[glepore]

After living with open baffle dipole speakers, there is no going back to “monkey coffins”, AKA box speakers.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web3.htm#ll

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Orion-TSS-review.pdf

Tim

Resurrecting this a bit. I've always loved dipole or omni radiators, ie Ohms, electrostatics, Maggies etc. but they're bloody inefficient. The above quoted post sent me down a rabbit hole where I discovered the "Betsy" a full range open baffle driver that believe it or not is $100/pair. Coupled with a sheet of birch ply and a couple of cheap dayton subs (the Betsy's are clean down to 80 hz but need a little help below) these things are flat out amazing. 94-96 db efficient, and they have a soundstage like the best dipoles-absolutely in the top 5% of speakers I've heard with acoustic music, and more than livable with electric stuff.
Sound flat out killer with tubes. All in $200/pair with baffles and helper amt tweeters (not really needed). Its almost unreal.

http://www.wildburroaudio.com/
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/

[mcteague]

Resurrecting this a bit. I've always loved dipole or omni radiators, ie Ohms, electrostatics, Maggies etc. but they're bloody inefficient. The above quoted post sent me down a rabbit hole where I discovered the "Betsy" a full range open baffle driver that believe it or not is $100/pair. Coupled with a sheet of birch ply and a couple of cheap dayton subs (the Betsy's are clean down to 80 hz but need a little help below) these things are flat out amazing. 94-96 db efficient, and they have a soundstage like the best dipoles-absolutely in the top 5% of speakers I've heard with acoustic music, and more than livable with electric stuff.
Sound flat out killer with tubes. All in $200/pair with baffles and helper amt tweeters (not really needed). Its almost unreal.

http://www.wildburroaudio.com/
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/

Open baffle speakers really need to be heard to be appreciated for how real they can sound. I’m actually trying to sell my Orions in order to make room for Sigfried Linkwitz’s final design, the LX521.

http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Speakers-Floor-Standing/Linkwitz/Orion/Open-baffle-dipole/195571

Tim

[mtechnica]

I need to get a tube amp for my heresies. Right now I have a tripath that drives them surprisingly well. Still miss my gigantic jbls that were too big to move though :(

[glepore]

Open baffle speakers really need to be heard to be appreciated for how real they can sound. I’m actually trying to sell my Orions in order to make room for Sigfried Linkwitz’s final design, the LX521.

http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Speakers-Floor-Standing/Linkwitz/Orion/Open-baffle-dipole/195571

Tim

You get those 521's built and I'll drive up there to audition them:hello:

[Bob Ross]

I've always loved dipole or omni radiators, ie Ohms, electrostatics, Maggies etc. but they're bloody inefficient.

Wow, I haven't thought about Ohm speakers in decades! I presume you're referring to the Model F, with its "Walsh" driver, yes?

While i loved the dispersion I was never particularly impressed with the sound of the Ohm F, so I was ready to be disappointed when I encountered some vaguely similar-looking omni radiators by German company MBL a few years ago.

Holy. Crap.

If you ever get a chance to audition a pair of MBL Reference 101E Radialstrahlers (http://www.mbl.de/radialstrahler-mbl-101-e-mk-ii/?lang=en), do it. Easily one of the top 3 speakers I've ever heard in my life...and I've been fortunate to hear some doozies.

They ain't cheap. And yeah, they ain't efficient either. But wow...

[buddybikes]

Want to talk inefficient - Ohm A's, shop I worked at sold them, saw few go out the door.

[Ken Robb]

I think efficiency used to be much more important when 20 watts from a tube amplifier (or 20 per channel when stereo arrived) was considered pretty high-output. These days 100 watts per channel and more is routine so we can still get plenty of volume from inefficient speakers.

[glepore]

Bob, I have a pair of Walsh 4's, the later design with "normal" inverted drivers. They have a terrific open dispersion, but are a little lacking on the high end. Some TakeT or amt tweaters would likely help.

@Ken-I agree, sort of. Efficient speakers are still necessary with tube setups-my SET amp is only 8 watts, but its pure class A and sounds killer. The main system has a couple different 200 wpc solid state amps, but for critical listening I'm usually using a Cary with kt77's-it might be 35-40 wpc, but because of the way tubes "clip" they punch above their weight.

Put on Jaco Pastorious last night with the Betsy's, and the soundstage was 20 feet wide and 8 ft tall-just flat out grin inspiring.

[William]

Spotted a pair of Carver 60 inch di-pole ribbons with 4 12inch woofers each on the Boston CL....

.

[William]

I recently picked up a pair of VR-M90 reference speakers that have pretty much ruined me from listening to other sources of music.:) Amazingly clear and uncolored, to the point I'm hearing things in works I thought I knew that I didn't pick up before. Even Mr's William, who didn't really care about sound quality before commented that they have ruined listening to music through other sources for her. Now she will sit down and listen for hours on these things. The fact that the warm cherry cabinets look good as well doesn't hurt. Win win.

Paired up with my vintage Marantz, the sound is just sublime even though these speakers could handle about 12+ times the power the Marantz puts out.






William

[glepore]

At 700 bucks, those Carver's are a steal. An interesting speaker for sure.

[kingpin75s]

I recently picked up a pair of VR-M90 reference speakers that have pretty much ruined me from listening to other sources of music.:) Amazingly clear and uncolored, to the point I'm hearing things in works I thought I knew that I didn't pick up before. Even Mr's William, who didn't really care about sound quality before commented that they have ruined listening to music through other sources for her. Now she will sit down and listen for hours on these things. The fact that the warm cherry cabinets look good as well doesn't hurt. Win win.

Paired up with my vintage Marantz, the sound is just sublime even though these speakers could handle about 12+ times the power the Marantz puts out.

William

Cool to hear you found some speakers you both appreciate.

My only recommend, wife permitting, would be to pull the speakers away from the front wall if possible and see how it changes the sound. Pull them out as far as you are comfortable (within reason and keeping triangulation to seating position in mind) and then listen. Walk them back towards the front wall in small increments and listen as you go to find the best placement.

[William]

Cool to hear you found some speakers you both appreciate.

My only recommend, wife permitting, would be to pull the speakers away from the front wall if possible and see how it changes the sound. Pull them out as far as you are comfortable (within reason and keeping triangulation to seating position in mind) and then listen. Walk them back towards the front wall in small increments and listen as you go to find the best placement.


They are about 4 inches from the wall now but I will give your recommendation a try.:cool:





William

[mcteague]

They are about 4 inches from the wall now but I will give your recommendation a try.:cool:





William

I was just about to say the same. Speakers really need to be away from walls to sound their best unless specifically designed to use the boundary reinforcement.

Tim

[kingpin75s]

They are about 4 inches from the wall now but I will give your recommendation a try.:cool:

William

Cool. Give at a shot and if you notice improvements, let us know where it sounded best and your room dimensions.

I may need to do the same myself today. I just swapped out for a new preamp and am now getting too much bass reinforcement and it is effecting the presence of vocals. Some things sound better but the overall sound has lost its cohesive nature so I have some further tuning to do based on my change.

As a reference, my speakers are probably 30" or so pulled out from my front wall and that had sounded best up to my change last night.

[William]

Moved them out so the speaker face is about two feet from the back wall...noticeable difference and improvement!:cool: I can't really take them out any further because then they start to protrude into the traffic area.






William

[kingpin75s]

Moved them out so the speaker face is about two feet from the back wall...noticeable difference and improvement!:cool: I can't really take them out any further because then they start to protrude into the traffic area.

William

Awesome. Great to hear.

There are always limitations but great to get what you can from the flexibility you have. Happy to hear it was a noticeable difference!

[djg]

Moved them out so the speaker face is about two feet from the back wall...noticeable difference and improvement!:cool: I can't really take them out any further because then they start to protrude into the traffic area.

William

Positioning matters (for some speakers it's huge), but it has to work for your use of the room too, and sometimes you get your most bang-for-the-room-use compromise when you ameliorate placement issues, as you've done. You might also play with lateral placement a bit, but you might be even more constrained by the room there.

It seems you've sort of scored here -- if you have new (to you) speakers set up in a way that really have you and your wife immersed in listening to music you both love -- in a way you weren't with your old setup, then you've hit a home run. Enjoy.

[William]

Positioning matters (for some speakers it's huge), but it has to work for your use of the room too, and sometimes you get your most bang-for-the-room-use compromise when you ameliorate placement issues, as you've done. You might also play with lateral placement a bit, but you might be even more constrained by the room there.

It seems you've sort of scored here -- if you have new (to you) speakers set up in a way that really have you and your wife immersed in listening to music you both love -- in a way you weren't with your old setup, then you've hit a home run. Enjoy.


I kind of stumbled my way into this but with the forum's advice and meeting an old audio engineer/vintage hi-fi repair guy and his recommendations I think we've ended up in a good place. Thank you!






William

[parris]

With all the audio threads that have been going for a while I've started to listen to my gear more again.

We reclaimed the basement family room which in addition to the big tv I've set up my main system so I can actually enjoy it a good amount. That has led me to want to listen to more music which is always a good thing :) .

Yesterday I did some cleaning out of the spare room on the main floor which lead me to putting another small system in it. This one's an old Yamaha CR-420 with a basic Yamaha CD player and the speakers are some mid 90's Infinity bookshelf models.

I've forgotten how much fun this stuff can be! Thanks for starting the threads ! :banana:

[William]

Some equipment doesn’t play well together

Interesting turn of events illustrated this fact to me: My Marantz 2225 developed an issue with the left channel where it would intermittently go softer and then eventually stayed that way. In getting it repaired I was given an Onkyo TX-811 loaner to run in the meantime. This is for the system I run downstairs in the house and when I installed the Onkyo and fired it up I was greatly disappointed in the sound quality. It just sounded dead. The Marantz, and even my Harman Kardon amp sound sublime when paired with the VR-M90’s I run in this set up. The Onkyo was night and day different and not in a good way. I ran it through a couple of different sources and was greatly disappointed. I immediately disconnected it and grabbed the HK from the system I run upstairs and hooked it up…much better. For the heck of it I took the Onkyo upstairs and hooked it up to that system where I’m running a pair of Klipsch KSB 3.1’s. Expecting it to sound similar to what it did downstairs I was pleasantly surprised by what came out of the speakers. It actually sounded very good paired with the Klipsch speakers.

I have read about this but it’s not something I had experienced before in such a dramatic way. The reaction was immediate the moment sound started coming out of the speakers. As I said, night and day different.

Live and learn.



William

[William]

Btw, anyone running Carver preamp/power amps? Thoughts?







William

[Steve in SLO]

Hi William,
I got this stuff. I bought both tuner/preamp and power amp in 1990 as my first purchase after graduating from medical school. They powered my Polk SDA-1c speakers at your splitting levels for years. I had not used them for over 20 years and pulled them out a couple of weeks ago when I bought some Elacs. Everything is as good as I remembered. Just need to clean out the volume pot and all will be set.
I remember the amp having lots of headroom to drive my Polks, and they are pretty thirsty speakers. The sonic holography on the preamp is gimmicky to some, but it works amazingly well with the Elacs in my 14 x 17 living room. The feature may not stand up to critical listening, but it is kind of neat to sit there and listen to the soundstage jump out 2 feet past the speakers on each side.

[William]

Nice!:cool:

Re-enjoying the vintage units? I'm eye balling a couple of vintage reconditioned units right now. :)







William

[glepore]

I have a carver pre that's not being used- c1- yours for 100 plus shipping.

I've had m400's, 1.0t's, and currently have a thm25 that needs caps. They all need caps now. A guy on ebay has them. Lots of headroom with these. The THM's sound awesome, the other pretty much like any solid state amp. In that price range I'd also look at used Adcom GFA55's -a Nelson Pass design.

[Bob Ross]

Btw, anyone running Carver preamp/power amps? Thoughts?

Never heard their preamps, but I spent a lot of time with several different Carver power amps: A 400T, a couple of 1.5Ts, and four 36-space racks full of PM-1.5Ts.

Yes they have tons of power in a wonderfully light, compact package, and plenty of dynamic headroom... but either their damping factor or their slew rate (or both) are conspicuously underwhelming to the point where their ability to translate low-frequency transients suffers. In the vernacular: They sound slow/soft.

[Jeff N.]

I once owned a Carver "The Receiver". I found it to be lacking on the low end (bass). Very flat. Same with anything by Phase Linear which, I believe, was Carver-esque. They sure all look nice though.

[glepore]

four 36-space racks full of PM-1.5Ts.



Uhh, didn't take you for the Metallica soundboard guy type, but whadda I know.

[glepore]

I once owned a Carver "The Receiver". I found it to be lacking on the low end (bass). Very flat. Same with anything by Phase Linear which, I believe, was Carver-esque. They sure all look nice though.

Yes, see Bob's post above. The THM amps were better at this. They're actually ok sounding. All Bob's stuff lacks warmth though, at least his ss stuff. I mean even more than most ss stuff already does.

[William]

I don't know what you folks are talking about, I just picked up a refurbished and upgraded M500T and it sounds good to me. A little different than my Marantz and HK but not in a bad way...and way more power to play with. Pair up well with the VR-M90 reference speakers.


Oh well, the journey continues.:banana:






William

[marsh]

1 year plus in the new house and I'm ready to set up my system again.
My old speakers didn't make the move, so I need to pick something up.
I have a basic setup - vintage Pioneer receiver and turntable.
Are any of these worth a darn? This is for the garage shop, so I don't want to spend too much. I also want some good clear bass, will I need to get a subwoofer too? The receiver has bass boost, but it always sounded muddled
(maybe it was my old speakers).

Infinity (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/ele/d/evanston-infinity-vintage-speakers-sm/6768632447.html)

Advent Legacy (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ele/d/arlington-heights-advent-legacy-speakers/6783198064.html)

JBL (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ele/d/mount-prospect-jbl-2500-bookshelf/6787355525.html)

[djg]

1 year plus in the new house and I'm ready to set up my system again.
My old speakers didn't make the move, so I need to pick something up.
I have a basic setup - vintage Pioneer receiver and turntable.
Are any of these worth a darn? This is for the garage shop, so I don't want to spend too much. I also want some good clear bass, will I need to get a subwoofer too? The receiver has bass boost, but it always sounded muddled
(maybe it was my old speakers).

Infinity (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/ele/d/evanston-infinity-vintage-speakers-sm/6768632447.html)

Advent Legacy (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ele/d/arlington-heights-advent-legacy-speakers/6783198064.html)

JBL (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ele/d/mount-prospect-jbl-2500-bookshelf/6787355525.html)

Things that work, work -- if you like them in the context in which you intend to use them, you can run with them, either making changes later or not. Pioneer made a wide range of electronics over quite a few years -- I'm no authority on the ins-and-outs. If the receiver is working fine, I'd just ignore the base boost switch and run without it. I don't recall anything about their old tables. Is it running well (and quiet)? Is the cartridge in good shape?

Speakers of that vintage might be fine and dandy, or damaged or degraded. For a garage system, any of those three pairs might be fine if they are in good condition. The first two advertise recent repairs, at least to the surrounds, which might be pretty welcome if they were done correctly (not rocket surgery). If the sellers can have them hooked up, and will let you listen to them, you can judge whether you like them, and what you think of the low end. There are some surprisingly decent new bookshelf speakers at low prices these days, but not for 60 bucks, so . . .

[C40_guy]

Speaking of vintage speakers, I have a couple of sets of vintage ADS speakers that aren't being used anymore. I think they're model 520 and 400, if I remember correctly...

If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod (Massachusetts) and are interested, let me know via PM and I can provide details. Would prefer not to deal with Craigslist for these, so happy to work with a forum listener... :)

[Ken Robb]

Speaking of vintage speakers, I have a couple of sets of vintage ADS speakers that aren't being used anymore. I think they're model 520 and 400, if I remember correctly...

If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod (Massachusetts) and are interested, let me know via PM and I can provide details. Would prefer not to deal with Craigslist for these, so happy to work with a forum listener... :)

I have a pair of 35 year-old ADS two-way speakers in my bedroom and they still sound fine. AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

I think the JBL speakers in the pix are too small to give you much bass.

[Ken Robb]

Speaking of vintage speakers, I have a couple of sets of vintage ADS speakers that aren't being used anymore. I think they're model 520 and 400, if I remember correctly...

If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod (Massachusetts) and are interested, let me know via PM and I can provide details. Would prefer not to deal with Craigslist for these, so happy to work with a forum listener... :)

I have a pair of 35 year-old ADS two-way speakers in my bedroom and they still sound fine. AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

I think the JBL speakers in the pix are too small to give you much bass.

[Ed-B]

AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.


While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.

CORRECTION: They were L-570/2 speakers.

[Ken Robb]

While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.
This is news to me. I think ADS used all Braun drivers in their early production and I know they changed at least the tweeters used in 710, 810 and maybe other models because the earlier tweeters could be blown when overdriven. The earlier ones were a little brighter.

[Ed-B]

While this is true, there were a small number ADS speakers with drivers that were assembled with a caustic cement which rusted the steel frame where the rubber surrounds were attached. I had a pair of L-520 that needed new drivers.

I'm an ADS fan from way back. I'm sure there are more efficient and accurate speakers, but I do like the ADS sound.

Yeah, it was a problem....

[Ken Robb]

Yeah, it was a problem....

EEK! Do you know when this cement was used? How long after manufacture did the drivers fail?

[Ed-B]

EEK! Do you know when this cement was used? How long after manufacture did the drivers fail?

I'm not sure about these specifics, although I don't believe that it was problematic across the whole range of speakers, or for a significant duration of the product cycle. I replaced these drivers with similar drivers from an earlier version of the speaker. These rusted drivers were in L-570/2 speakers. I got earlier L-570 drivers to replace them.

If you're looking at ADS speakers just look for the tell-tale ring of rust around the driver. If it's clean you're good.

BTW, I need to make a correction on my earlier post. It was these 570/2 speakers with drivers that were replaced, not L-520 speakers.

But I'd check them all to be sure.

[Peter P.]

... so I need to pick something up.
I have a basic setup - vintage Pioneer receiver and turntable.
Are any of these worth a darn? This is for the garage shop, so I don't want to spend too much. I also want some good clear bass, will I need to get a subwoofer too? The receiver has bass boost, but it always sounded muddled
(maybe it was my old speakers).

JBL (https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ele/d/mount-prospect-jbl-2500-bookshelf/6787355525.html)

You're on the right track-go for craigslist. It's a garage system so who cares how the cabinets look?

I think the JBL's are right because I was going to suggest a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer. A subwoofer will give you better bass than using the bass boost button on your receiver, and will give you more placement options with the smaller bookshelf speakers and optimal location for the subwoofer.

If the Pioneer receiver works then keep using it. You're fortunate that you live in a large metropolitan area; you'll have a greater availability of used equipment.

[Jeff N.]

Find a good pair of Sansui SP-3500's. They're all over Ebay.

[lemondvictoire]

Yeah, it was a problem....

I have a pr of the same ADS drivers that are rusting.. the outer rubber ring next to the surround is separating.. Will be grinding the rust off with a dremel a section at a time and then re-glue with contact cement or E6000 Adhesive . Need dust mask and dust shield.... Should be easier than re surrounding old speakers.. Looks like these drivers are very easy to center the voice coil without coil rubbing... As other speakers sometime need the dust caps to be removed and centered with shims before gluing the surrounds..

[froze]

I'm no audiophile either because I can't afford to be one! but I have good ears, and I have listened to all the Bose speakers back in the day and can honestly say I didn't like any of the ones I listen to. From what I recall the 501's were mushy detail lacking boxy sound which is typical of most Bose speakers.

I eventually settled on JBL L7's, you have to google a review on these. After listening to a bunch of speakers those for my ears (everyone's ears are different) sounded the best for the money of all the 20 or so speakers I listened to. The JBL also didn't use foam inserts so after 20 plus years there is no rot, they also didn't use polypropene for speaker material either so they haven't cracked with age, they are still going very strong and sound great. All the JBL speakers in the L series were good sounding speakers, the smallest one needed a subwoofer but the others did pretty good without one but for modern movies subwoofers are essential. L7 has such a fantastic unamplified sub bass speaker I found a subwoofer to be useless! I have that sub bass speaker driven by a separate amp and the rest driven by another amp, though for years I only use one amp to drive the speakers and it was fine that way as well.

In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be.

[daker13]

In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be.

??

[froze]

??

I don't understand your ?? marks, think a bit. Back before subwoofers became all the rage, and those that were around were weak, yet movies had some deep sub base responses going on, they had floor standing speakers with either a single large base speaker like my JBL L7's, or they used multiple semi large bass speakers like the Infinity Kappa 9's that had two (in attempt to get the same volume of air to move as a single large one) had (I auditioned these speakers too but found the JBL L7 to be more to my taste in other areas of sound).

The L7 has a 12 inch sub base speaker that can reach down to 30 hz, the best subwoofers can go to 20 hz, however bass guitars and explosions hover at around the 30 hz range. The Kappa 9 supposedly got down to 29 hz which is just a tad better than mine. Subwoofers didn't really start making headway in the average consumer market till about the mid 90's, prior to that they were audiophile equipment only. Most of those early average consumer units were not as powerful as the ones today, and they would go down to about 40 hz with the more expensive ones getting down to 30. This is why when I took home a subwoofer to try out on a movie I couldn't tell if the darn thing was even on, I would turn it off and on and the L7's were keeping up with the low bass just fine, only when I disconnected the L7's wires from the large bass speaker could I tell that the sub was operating, so I took the sub back to the store.

Now going back to my statement you questioned, in today's average consumer market speakers are designed with the thought that you will at some time buy a subwoofer, so they don't build speakers that can get down to 30 or so hz. The better average consumer speakers today will go only as low as 35 hz with most hovering around the 40 hz range. Note I am only discussing average consumer speakers, I'm not going to entertain a $10,000 audiophile speaker for example in this discussion. Even modern subwoofers still only get into the 35 hz range with some dipping down into the upper 20's, and a few into the lower 20's...again for the average consumer market. Todays powered subwoofers are a bit better than the ones that were around when I tested that one subwoofer I mentioned, that one was a DCM, it looks like on the internet to be the KX model and the specs on that one was 30 hz which matched my JBL which explains why I couldn't hear any difference with it on or off.

[djg]

...

Now going back to my statement you questioned, in today's average consumer market speakers are designed with the thought that you will at some time buy a subwoofer, so they don't build speakers that can get down to 30 or so hz. The better average consumer speakers today will go only as low as 35 hz with most hovering around the 40 hz range. Note I am only discussing average consumer speakers, I'm not going to entertain a $10,000 audiophile speaker for example in this discussion. Even modern subwoofers still only get into the 35 hz range with some dipping down into the upper 20's, and a few into the lower 20's...again for the average consumer market. Todays powered subwoofers are a bit better than the ones that were around when I tested that one subwoofer I mentioned, that one was a DCM, it looks like on the internet to be the KX model and the specs on that one was 30 hz which matched my JBL which explains why I couldn't hear any difference with it on or off.

I don't want to dissuade anybody from a decent sub, if they want one, but there are speakers with credible low end that don't cost 10k per pair. You can read Robert Reina's description of listening to a recording of himself on a pipe organ through a much more modestly priced pair of Wharfedale's here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/wharfedale-diamond-107-loudspeaker. I think that these went up to 1399 per pair before being replaced in the line, but you can find them on closeout for 699 (and either price is a small fraction of 10k). I'm not saying that's all the low end anybody wants, or everybody's favorite loudspeaker at the price point; and there's the rest of the system, etc. I don't even think it's the most low end you can find under 2k per pair. I don't know if these would meet your requirements -- I don't think of them as rattle-the-foundations speakers and don't know what they'd do with explosions, etc., if connected to the TV (which they are not) for an action movie. It's just an example of what the market offers providing what seems to me a credible full range speaker for music (credible and musical) -- an example with which I'm familiar, having bought a pair of these for my living room system last year.

[froze]

I don't want to dissuade anybody from a decent sub, if they want one, but there are speakers with credible low end that don't cost 10k per pair. You can read Robert Reina's description of listening to a recording of himself on a pipe organ through a much more modestly priced pair of Wharfedale's here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/wharfedale-diamond-107-loudspeaker. I think that these went up to 1399 per pair before being replaced in the line, but you can find them on closeout for 699 (and either price is a small fraction of 10k). I'm not saying that's all the low end anybody wants, or everybody's favorite loudspeaker at the price point; and there's the rest of the system, etc. I don't even think it's the most low end you can find under 2k per pair. I don't know if these would meet your requirements -- I don't think of them as rattle-the-foundations speakers and don't know what they'd do with explosions, etc., if connected to the TV (which they are not) for an action movie. It's just an example of what the market offers providing what seems to me a credible full range speaker for music (credible and musical) -- an example with which I'm familiar, having bought a pair of these for my living room system last year.

Those Wharfs are pretty good speaker for money like you said, and they do go down to 30 according to the specs. However there is something that concerns me about those speakers, maybe you can answer this. The JBL sub bass speaker is a 12 inch speaker (the others in the JBL is a 8" mid bass, 5" mid, and a 1" ti high); the question I see when comparing a 12 inch sub bass vs 2 6 1/2" woofers, and the one woofer is for some reason different in it's design vs the other in the Wharf. Granted the two woofers combined will equal 13 inches, however in the engineering dept they all say that typically one larger speaker will have far more of an impact than two smaller ones. https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/17340/which-provides-more-bass-1-12-woofer-or-2-6-woofers The larger speakers might suffer from distortion as mentioned in the above site but that depends on how it's made; I can't recall all the details any more on my 12 inch woofer, but I think I remember hearing from the HK JBL marketing rep that the speaker was made of a paper cement composition that stiffen the woofer so there is no distortion (I couldn't find anything on the internet on what those JBL speakers were made of). It use to be that you could find lower end speakers with 12 to 14 inch woofers, those did indeed suffer distortion, but they were also nothing but paper with nothing else added to stiffen up the cone.

I have no idea if my specs for the JBL's are spot on, I do know from reading on the internet about them over the years the jest is that they are, but I don't think the Wharfs are correct because they can't, according to what I've read, move enough air to get down to the 30 range, so not sure how they came to that spec. Even the review on them stated that the bass was natural and extended, warm and deep, but no mention of powerful.

Even if you look at subwoofers, the stronger ones drive larger diameter woofers, so there has to be something there about the size of the woofer that will translate into a deeper more powerful impact. A lot of modern speakers come with powered subwoofers inside the speaker like Definitive Technology BP9080X, these are really strong having a powered subwoofer in each speaker that can reach down to 16!

I have played a low bass music CD and a movie with lots of low sub bass responses through my JBL's then I have to go around and put small felt pads on the picture frames throughout the living room to eliminate that rattle noise they'll produce from the speakers pounding; so like before at my old house I had to go around the room in my new house with the speakers going and find sources of extraneous noise and eliminate it, sort of a process but with the right bass frequencies running it only takes about 20 to 30 minutes to find and fix. I hate extraneous noises when I'm trying to especially listen to music, but movies as well.

Amazon pricing you have to be careful about, usually the price for a speaker on Amazon is the price for one not a pair; also you have to check anything you buy of importance on Amazon to make real sure that the seller is an authorized retailer for the item your buying, if not your warranty will suffer.

[choke]

I don't want to dissuade anybody from a decent sub, if they want one, but there are speakers with credible low end that don't cost 10k per pair. Two words - Tekton speakers.

[Ken Robb]

I think the area of one 12" is greater than the area of two 6 or 6.5" speakers. OTOH the smaller speakers might have longer travel and so move more air than a speaker with more cone area. Some designers like to use smaller cones because they are more easily controlled and may have less distortion than they can get using bigger cones. I think you have to listen to various speakers to learn what YOU like.

[Peter P.]

I think the area of one 12" is greater than the area of two 6 or 6.5" speakers. ... I think you have to listen to various speakers to learn what YOU like.

2-6.25" woofers = 66.4 sq.in.

1-12" woofer = 113.1 sq.in.

I think the issue has something to do with moving the cone mass of the larger woofer; the smaller woofer responds faster. That's if I recall correctly what I've read.

To be sure, there's also the issue of maximum cone travel, which equates to the low frequency's amplitude. I have no idea whether there are limitations to the maximum excursion capability of smaller drivers and whether they have lower amplitude limitations vs. larger drivers.

I think froze is on the right track regarding full-range speakers vs. bookshelf speakers, and the introduction of subwoofers. I wouldn't be surprised the popularity of subwoofers was partially driven by practical concerns: Most people (my casual observation leads me to believe it was the wives or female S.O.'s) disapproved of large speakers in the living room, which is typically where the stereo, and increasingly the TV were situated, and put their foot down when it came to "large, ugly, speakers". To get full movie effects, a subwoofer became almost a necessity, albeit not quite for only music. For some perspective, the lowest frequency on a piano is 27.5Hz, and the lowest tone on an acoustic bass is 30Hz. Audiophiles craving "authentic reproduction" would seek out larger, no doubt more expensive speakers, which were the only ones capable of reproducing such frequencies. It's the action movie sound effects which tend to reside in the sub-30Hz realm.

Today's subwoofers can fill in what more aesthetically acceptable bookshelf sized speakers are lacking. They are a great, affordable, in many cases unobtrusive solution to the practical dilemma facing many a married man.
:)

[froze]

I think the area of one 12" is greater than the area of two 6 or 6.5" speakers. OTOH the smaller speakers might have longer travel and so move more air than a speaker with more cone area. Some designers like to use smaller cones because they are more easily controlled and may have less distortion than they can get using bigger cones. I think you have to listen to various speakers to learn what YOU like.

But I can tell from looking at the Wharfs that those are not long throw speakers.

And you are VERY CORRECT about each person needs to listen to various speakers to find out what they like, because everyone's idea of what sounds good is different due to how our ears pick up sound and even how our brain interprets it, as is the types of music we each like to listen to. To add to that, if a person is going out to audition some speakers they need to take several CD's of the various kinds of music they like, and not listen to whatever the sales guy puts in; also reference a movie track to see how it sounds. What I did once I narrowed the selection down was to take them home because speakers are going to sound a lot different at home then in the store, so make sure the store, or the internet store has a good return policy.

[froze]

Two words - Tekton speakers. I've never heard of that brand before but the internet seems to be glowing over them!

[djg]

2-6.25" woofers = 66.4 sq.in.

1-12" woofer = 113.1 sq.in.

I think the issue has something to do with moving the cone mass of the larger woofer; the smaller woofer responds faster. That's if I recall correctly what I've read.

To be sure, there's also the issue of maximum cone travel, which equates to the low frequency's amplitude. I have no idea whether there are limitations to the maximum excursion capability of smaller drivers and whether they have lower amplitude limitations vs. larger drivers.

I think froze is on the right track regarding full-range speakers vs. bookshelf speakers, and the introduction of subwoofers. I wouldn't be surprised the popularity of subwoofers was partially driven by practical concerns: Most people (my casual observation leads me to believe it was the wives or female S.O.'s) disapproved of large speakers in the living room, which is typically where the stereo, and increasingly the TV were situated, and put their foot down when it came to "large, ugly, speakers". To get full movie effects, a subwoofer became almost a necessity, albeit not quite for only music. For some perspective, the lowest frequency on a piano is 27.5Hz, and the lowest tone on an acoustic bass is 30Hz. Audiophiles craving "authentic reproduction" would seek out larger, no doubt more expensive speakers, which were the only ones capable of reproducing such frequencies. It's the action movie sound effects which tend to reside in the sub-30Hz realm.

Today's subwoofers can fill in what more aesthetically acceptable bookshelf sized speakers are lacking. They are a great, affordable, in many cases unobtrusive solution to the practical dilemma facing many a married man.
:)

Well, yes, the area of a circle is probably still pie x r squared, so two 6" drivers do not have the same area as one 12" driver.

I think that the rest of it is perfectly sensible too. As I said, there's nothing wrong with a good sub, and for many rooms, sensibilities, systems, and budgets, it makes good sense.

The Wharfedale is relatively unobtrusive for a tower speaker, and easy to drive, and not too finicky WRT setup, but that's not to say it's everybody's cup of tea appearance-wise, any more than it's everybody's dream speaker at a given price. I was just offering it up as an example of something musical with a credible low end at a relatively reasonable price.

Somebody queried the price -- the 699 I mentioned is available per pair -- it's what I paid last year from the only US vendor that still seems to have the 10.7 in stock (AFAIK, which may not be all that far). Whether that's of interest to anybody I cannot say.

[djg]

But I can tell from looking at the Wharfs that those are not long throw speakers.

And you are VERY CORRECT about each person needs to listen to various speakers to find out what they like, because everyone's idea of what sounds good is different due to how our ears pick up sound and even how our brain interprets it, as is the types of music we each like to listen to. To add to that, if a person is going out to audition some speakers they need to take several CD's of the various kinds of music they like, and not listen to whatever the sales guy puts in; also reference a movie track to see how it sounds. What I did once I narrowed the selection down was to take them home because speakers are going to sound a lot different at home then in the store, so make sure the store, or the internet store has a good return policy.

Indeed. The speakers don't sound like much of anything without music and a system, and that's before you count the room. And that's not necessarily to say that they'll sound better in the store.

I actually took a flier on the Wharfedales mail order as the store offered both free shipping (one way) and a 60-day trial period (and based on the reviews, and based on my memories of the diamonds of long ago). But I did that partly because I'd become frustrated looking elsewhere in ways you might predict. There are good audio stores in my metro area, but they have what they have -- and then there are stores where you cannot remotely approximate your home setup, running to big box stores, like BB, where you cannot even play your own CDs. I heard what were probably pretty good speakers from B&W, Monitor, and other mfgs sound truly uninspiring due (I think) to the source material and listening setup. Had I been looking for a dream system I would have looked harder, but I wasn't. I might have done pretty darn well at a local record store that carries some vintage gear, but that's another story altogether.

But I'm rambling -- I completely agree that it makes sense to bring one's own source material.

[daker13]

...

Now going back to my statement you questioned, in today's average consumer market speakers are designed with the thought that you will at some time buy a subwoofer, so they don't build speakers that can get down to 30 or so hz. The better average consumer speakers today will go only as low as 35 hz with most hovering around the 40 hz range. Note I am only discussing average consumer speakers, I'm not going to entertain a $10,000 audiophile speaker for example in this discussion. Even modern subwoofers still only get into the 35 hz range with some dipping down into the upper 20's, and a few into the lower 20's...again for the average consumer market. Todays powered subwoofers are a bit better than the ones that were around when I tested that one subwoofer I mentioned, that one was a DCM, it looks like on the internet to be the KX model and the specs on that one was 30 hz which matched my JBL which explains why I couldn't hear any difference with it on or off.

A lot of people (speaker designers and music lovers) don't like subwoofers because they feel they don't integrate well with the rest of the system. If you have a subwoofer and you like it, that's great. But it's ridiculous to say that "In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be" because this isn't remotely true. And many of the people who buy subwoofers are using them for home theater, not because they want to experience every bit of low end in Mahler's first symphony.

I've known several writers (some friends) from the audio magazines, and I can tell you, they generally don't use subwoofers. Again, if you use one and like it, that's great, but it's silly to say "almost all new speakers" are voiced with the expectation that you're going to buy a subwoofer. Then you qualify your statement about "almost all new speakers" to say that you're really only only talking about "average consumer speakers." What is an "average consumer speaker," the kind you buy at Target and Best Buy? What's an "average consumer" bicycle?

That's the other thing I disagree with in your post. You have this opposition between "average consumer speakers" on the one hand and "$10,000 audiophile speakers" on the other. This opposition is complete bs. You do not need to spend a ton of money to have a good stereo, and plenty of stereos that DO cost a lot of $ sound terrible. Case in point, the "ultimate" stereo that was set up at CES a few years ago, costing over $200k, where the cartridge was audibly mistracking. I guarantee you, the writers at Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc., would not endorse this idea that you have to spend a ton of money to put together a nice stereo. For one thing, you see some of these guys integrating vintage components (not expensive) into their systems and using them to evaluate other components. Anyone can put together a great sounding stereo with minimal cash, especially if they're willing to buy used, learn something, and put a little care into how you they it together. I have to question your knowledge of the subject if your idea of home audio is JBL and Infinity on one side and "$10,000 speakers" on the other.

If you like listening to music on the stereo you have, good for you, I applaud you, but you don't need to act like you're some sort of authority on the subject when there's a clear lack of understanding about the hobby in your comments.

[froze]

If you like listening to music on the stereo you have, good for you, I applaud you, but you don't need to act like you're some sort of authority on the subject when there's a clear lack of understanding about the hobby in your comments.

Well, so now your going to get nasty? Look I never said I was the authority of the subject, in fact I said early on I'm not even an audiophile! I said the things I said based on my experiences, I have not tested every speaker ever made from the 50's until this present age, nor every possible amp combination ever devised by man on all of those speakers, nor listened to every piece of music ever recorded on all those combinations; so don't get snarky.

[William]

... I wouldn't be surprised the popularity of subwoofers was partially driven by practical concerns: Most people (my casual observation leads me to believe it was the wives or female S.O.'s) disapproved of large speakers in the living room, which is typically where the stereo, and increasingly the TV were situated, and put their foot down when it came to "large, ugly, speakers". Audiophiles craving "authentic reproduction" would seek out larger, no doubt more expensive speakers, which were the only ones capable of reproducing such frequencies.

Today's subwoofers can fill in what more aesthetically acceptable bookshelf sized speakers are lacking. They are a great, affordable, in many cases unobtrusive solution to the practical dilemma facing many a married man.
:)


There is truth to this and I was somewhat in this boat. Then I decided to go the "Just get them and ask for forgiveness later" route. They are BIG speakers, but it turned out that once she heard them she loved the sound and now listens to them all the time.


For the win!!!:banana::banana::banana:







William

[froze]

Back in the mid 90's when I was doing all my home entertainment buying and test listened to a whole bunch of speakers, I did try smaller speakers with subwoofers combos in the stores and the fullness, richness and wide frequency range was not as good with those as they were with full size floor speakers. As the years went buy for fun I did listen to some of the newer small and larger speakers and I still ran into that same issue. I know that full size speakers are not for everyone, but I had the floor space and my wife didn't care so I got the big ones.

By the way, there was a speaker I auditioned that I really liked called the Magnepan which is a ribbon speaker, those sounded much more natural and a bit warmer than any speaker I heard but they did require a subwoofer back then; but I couldn't afford the speakers and the subwoofer combo, at the time I think they were $2,500 a piece plus the subwoofer, but man I loved the sound they put out. They also had another issue, they recommended that I buy two separate amps each the exact same amp, and one amp power one speaker and the other speaker with the second amp, that drove the price even higher out of my range (of course they were trying to sell me a more expensive amp then what I ended up getting). So those were a no go, but had I had the extra cash I would have dropped it. So I guess one could say I had to settle on second best from all the speakers I heard.

This discussion got me looking on Google about my JBL L7's and apparently there is a lot of love for them in the reviews, and they sell used for about what I paid for them new! so I guess I didn't make to bad of a decision getting those.

[kingpin75s]

Back in the mid 90's when I was doing all my home entertainment buying and test listened to a whole bunch of speakers, I did try smaller speakers with subwoofers combos in the stores and the fullness, richness and wide frequency range was not as good with those as they were with full size floor speakers. As the years went buy for fun I did listen to some of the newer small and larger speakers and I still ran into that same issue. I know that full size speakers are not for everyone, but I had the floor space and my wife didn't care so I got the big ones.

By the way, there was a speaker I auditioned that I really liked called the Magnepan which is a ribbon speaker, those sounded much more natural and a bit warmer than any speaker I heard but they did require a subwoofer back then; but I couldn't afford the speakers and the subwoofer combo, at the time I think they were $2,500 a piece plus the subwoofer, but man I loved the sound they put out. They also had another issue, they recommended that I buy two separate amps each the exact same amp, and one amp power one speaker and the other speaker with the second amp, that drove the price even higher out of my range (of course they were trying to sell me a more expensive amp then what I ended up getting). So those were a no go, but had I had the extra cash I would have dropped it. So I guess one could say I had to settle on second best from all the speakers I heard.

This discussion got me looking on Google about my JBL L7's and apparently there is a lot of love for them in the reviews, and they sell used for about what I paid for them new! so I guess I didn't make to bad of a decision getting those.

You are correct that small speakers and subs may be ok, but lack in body as well as cohesiveness compared to full size. I good friend of mine just replaced his Revel Gems to the new small revel M126Be bookshelf speakers. Paired with stereo subs it lacked the body of the bigger previous generation bookshelf Gems (which are not really a bookshelf). He has now leveled up to the 228Be full size speakers and is much happier.

Magnepan is local to me so I am very familiar with their sound. Considered them vs. my Revels. I have stereo subs either way but a must with the Megnepoans for sure.

[kingpin75s]

For stereo listening a pair of subs make a Big difference in a good system.

If you can afford the biggest Wilson 3 ways or something built with monster bass and a super low frequency extension right in them then great, but most speakers (even very good ones) can benefit from stereo subs.

I have a large listening space so I have quad subs stacked in pairs to the outsides of my primary speakers.

The key to integrating subs is to have control over crossover and gain at a minimum. Subs should be crossed over low and be set to effortless gain.

Mine are set to 55Hz crossover and at gain/volume 3 of 10. This setting benefited me more when I was running lower end revel F35 2 1/2 way speakers that start to roll off bass at 51Hz. The same setting still work for my much nicer Revel 228Be speakers that have a Bass response down to 27Hz. The fact that I have always kept them in an effortless and supporting state means they always integrate well and never overpower or smear my primary speakers.

[kingpin75s]

A lot of people (speaker designers and music lovers) don't like subwoofers because they feel they don't integrate well with the rest of the system. If you have a subwoofer and you like it, that's great. But it's ridiculous to say that "In today's world almost all new speakers are built with the thought that you are going to get a separate subwoofer, so the bass on these modern speakers are not as powerful as they use to be" because this isn't remotely true. And many of the people who buy subwoofers are using them for home theater, not because they want to experience every bit of low end in Mahler's first symphony.

I've known several writers (some friends) from the audio magazines, and I can tell you, they generally don't use subwoofers. Again, if you use one and like it, that's great, but it's silly to say "almost all new speakers" are voiced with the expectation that you're going to buy a subwoofer. Then you qualify your statement about "almost all new speakers" to say that you're really only only talking about "average consumer speakers." What is an "average consumer speaker," the kind you buy at Target and Best Buy? What's an "average consumer" bicycle?

That's the other thing I disagree with in your post. You have this opposition between "average consumer speakers" on the one hand and "$10,000 audiophile speakers" on the other. This opposition is complete bs. You do not need to spend a ton of money to have a good stereo, and plenty of stereos that DO cost a lot of $ sound terrible. Case in point, the "ultimate" stereo that was set up at CES a few years ago, costing over $200k, where the cartridge was audibly mistracking. I guarantee you, the writers at Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc., would not endorse this idea that you have to spend a ton of money to put together a nice stereo. For one thing, you see some of these guys integrating vintage components (not expensive) into their systems and using them to evaluate other components. Anyone can put together a great sounding stereo with minimal cash, especially if they're willing to buy used, learn something, and put a little care into how you they it together. I have to question your knowledge of the subject if your idea of home audio is JBL and Infinity on one side and "$10,000 speakers" on the other.

If you like listening to music on the stereo you have, good for you, I applaud you, but you don't need to act like you're some sort of authority on the subject when there's a clear lack of understanding about the hobby in your comments.

You have some good points in here but Froze was not so off base as well.

First, consumer vs. Audiophile speakers. Yes, I am sure many are designed just as froze says. Revels are.

Per my previous post, Revel F36 speakers which I consider consumer grade, even if on the higher end at $2K, start to roll off below 51Hz. They are part of the Concerta2 series which has subs to complement. Revel 228Be Revel speakers are Audiophile speakers are are in the $10K range as described. There are no Revel Be line subs. The speakers go down to 27Hz and while many would not need them, I run the quad subs for the extra body and SPLs for my large space.

Again, the key to subs is effortless use by managing crossover and gain.

Audiophile magazine guys all have different opinions. Does not mean they are right. My friends at Stereophile would disagree with yours so no help there.

The final part is the big debate. What does it cost for great sound? At what point is it real HiFi?

[William]

While I have audio bumped up:

Any one ever try speakers from the French company Cabasse? Do they plane or ride like they are on rails? Ride reports please if you have. :)





W.

[Bob Ross]

Any one ever try speakers from the French company Cabasse? Do they plane or ride like they are on rails? Ride reports please if you have. :)

I don't consider the Cabasse substitutes for any traditional speaker. Rather, they should be considered alternatives to Sonos if you like the concept of a networked wireless powered speaker with its own app for supplying content, but want significantly better audio performance -- and significantly more radical aesthetic styling -- than a Sonos FIVE or ONE SL or PLAY etc.

[William]

I don't consider the Cabasse substitutes for any traditional speaker. Rather, they should be considered alternatives to Sonos if you like the concept of a networked wireless powered speaker with its own app for supplying content, but want significantly better audio performance -- and significantly more radical aesthetic styling -- than a Sonos FIVE or ONE SL or PLAY etc.

I should have been more specific, I was thinking along the lines of their standard speakers...not the powered/blue tooth/nuclear fission style speakers.:)



W.

[Marvinlungwitz]

They're not vintage, but they have a vintage look to them.
And I think they sound great, but YMMV.

https://dynaudio.com/home-audio/heritage/heritage-special

[Bob Ross]

I should have been more specific, I was thinking along the lines of their standard speakers...not the powered/blue tooth/nuclear fission style speakers.:)

Ah, okay, I wasn't even aware that they made "normal" speakers!

[Jeff N.]

If it's VINTAGE you want, these'll shake the foundation! You could buy them when I was overseas during the Vietnam mess but shipping them home was up to you. They were just too damn big. (Sansui SP-5500)

[William]

If it's VINTAGE you want, these'll shake the foundation! You could buy them when I was overseas during the Vietnam mess but shipping them home was up to you. They were just too damn big. (Sansui SP-5500)

Would love to hear what those sound like!





W.

[robt57]

OK, now that the old thread is awake from a bump....

Vintage you say?

I re-set up my HT, new cabinet and LG/OLED. Front HT speakers some TF250 Time Frames I got used in 2002. Re-done edges on the woofs still holding up and sounding good. Rest of the speakers Piegas.

I wish I still had my Time Windows my friend talked me outta in the 90s... Frames just have to do I guess. ;)

Then there were the Klipsch La Scala I always wanted but had no room for.. Sucker for folded horns, yo!

[pdmtong]

Ironic. I picked up a pair of TF250 on local CL.
The grills were gone and the owner had painted them an ugly chocolate brown. I repainted them matte black. Love the looks. Recently sold.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221206/10f4137a7d7d28a7cbae093928a5bd02.jpg

[Rpoole8537]

I have a pair of 35 year-old ADS two-way speakers in my bedroom and they still sound fine. AFAIK all ADS speakers used butyl rubber surrounds that, unlike foam, don't disintegrate over time.

I think the JBL speakers in the pix are too small to give you much bass.

I had a pair of AFD 700's form the mid 70's. They had foam surrounds that deteriorated. I called ADS and bought four of their replacement speakers, which cost me almost as much as the original speakers. The new speakers were butyl surrounds and they did not sound as good, IMHO. I met a dealer in Raleigh and he agreed. I sold those many years later and I regret it to this day.

[C40_guy]

I had a pair of AFD 700's form the mid 70's. They had foam surrounds that deteriorated. I called ADS and bought four of their replacement speakers, which cost me almost as much as the original speakers. The new speakers were butyl surrounds and they did not sound as good, IMHO. I met a dealer in Raleigh and he agreed. I sold those many years later and I regret it to this day.

I've got a pair of ADS L520 speakers in my gym/Zwift setup. They still sound great. :)

@Bob Ross and I sold more than a few of these back in the day. :)

...and at one point, we got an ADS factory tour. Very cool.