Ti Tubing ... straight gauge or butted?

[campy man]

Ti tubing question ... straight gauge or butted?

Looks like some of the custom Ti frame builders offer straight gauge tubing but for additional cost will design/build with butted tubing. Considering Ti tubing has the weight issue covered, does building with butted Ti tubing add much to performance?

[dbnm]

Talk to Moots about their RSL frames.

[Ken Robb]

I think it depends how much a person is willing to pay to save a few grams. I suppose the thinner tubes made possible by butting would be a bit more prone to denting.

[NewDFWrider]

One thing to consider regarding butting is the intended use of your bike. For example, if you plan on turning it into a travel bike with couplers, you might be better off with straight tubing.

[thegunner]

Ti tubing question ... straight gauge or butted?

Looks like some of the custom Ti frame builders offer straight gauge tubing but for additional cost will design/build with butted tubing. Considering Ti tubing has the weight issue covered, does building with butted Ti tubing add much to performance?

it's not a trivial amount of weight (i mean, maybe it is, but i'm a recovering weightweenie)

my firefly butted is in the range of 15.2 with non-exotic parts and wheels.

my moots with a similar build with a heavier fork and stem (similar geo) was at 16.4 - the difference in FF/HS was somewhere around 300 grams.

[jr59]

Besides weight, no difference. That according to Tom Kellogg.

I’ve had both a ti super and a str gauged ti bike both by him, made by seven. No difference in the way they rode at all.

And the butted, didn’t dent all that easy

[nmrt]

from my readings on this issue (tom kellogg has a great write-up), the biggest reason to go with butted is to save weight. for some the weight saved is trivial and for some it is a huge deal. you need to decide which camp you fall in. but in terms of riding dynamics, not a lot of difference. the builder can build a bike with both butted and straight gauge tubes to give you the bike you want.

now, there are some ultrabutted Ti bike (seven cycles SLX line comes to mind) where seven does not recommend it for "heavier" riders.

i see jr59 beat me to it. :-)

[weiwentg]

it's not a trivial amount of weight (i mean, maybe it is, but i'm a recovering weightweenie)

my firefly butted is in the range of 15.2 with non-exotic parts and wheels.

my moots with a similar build with a heavier fork and stem (similar geo) was at 16.4 - the difference in FF/HS was somewhere around 300 grams.

On one hand, I agree, nearly a pound difference is noticeable when you lift the bike by hand. On the other hand, one pound difference is less than 1% difference in the total weight of the bike + rider.

I'd be more curious about ride quality of a straight gauge vs butted ti frame. Any thoughts?

[thegunner]

On one hand, I agree, nearly a pound difference is noticeable when you lift the bike by hand. On the other hand, one pound difference is less than 1% difference in the total weight of the bike + rider.

I'd be more curious about ride quality of a straight gauge vs butted ti frame. Any thoughts?

can't address that. the FF was custom made for me and the moots was off the shelf, so i'm a bit biased in that the former fits me better.

[d_douglas]

My Desalvo is straight gauge. Mike told me it wasn't worth the investment, unless I was looking to shave weight.

I am looking to do that, but off my body, not off the frame!

[Duende]

I suspect it has more to do with rider weight, intended usage, and how the frame builder addresses that in their design.

I’d ask the advice of the builder directly.

[joosttx]

Tyler Evans of Firefly has a really good post on this subject. Search for him and then search for the post.

I have a butted ti bike and it’s so nice.

[RFC]

On one hand, I agree, nearly a pound difference is noticeable when you lift the bike by hand. On the other hand, one pound difference is less than 1% difference in the total weight of the bike + rider.

I'd be more curious about ride quality of a straight gauge vs butted ti frame. Any thoughts?

I don't know that the comparison is head-to-accurate. I talked to one Ti frame builder who does not use butted tubing because "the difference is a few grams."

[sokyroadie]

At NAHBS around 2010 I said to Kent Ericksen

" So you just build with straight gauge Ti" His response was basically *** do mean "just" straight gauge - it is effin awsome as is. :eek:

[chiasticon]

On one hand, I agree, nearly a pound difference is noticeable when you lift the bike by hand. On the other hand, one pound difference is less than 1% difference in the total weight of the bike + rider.

I'd be more curious about ride quality of a straight gauge vs butted ti frame. Any thoughts?I have an IF planetX Ti that's butted and a Moots psychloX that's straight gauge. I definitely notice the difference in weight. frames are basically the same (1cm shorter head-tube on the Moots, so also a slightly lower TT; otherwise identical frames). I'd say 1lb sounds about right but I've never stripped both bikes down and weighed the frames.

ride quality-wise, the IF seems more alive to me. it really wants to go (even if I don't). not sure that it makes for a smoother ride, as this is cross and it's pretty punishing regardless. but point being the Moots seems sluggish in comparison. could be a mental thing, I don't know; but I definitely notice it regularly, and from year to year when I get the CX bikes out again.

*also, IMHO, 1lb is a decent bit of weight when you have to lift the bike over barriers or shoulder it every lap. especially if you're adding some mud to it as well...

[Kirk007]

I'd pick your builder, ask them to build you their "best" bike for you and your intentions and leave it to them.

I had both JR59's ti bikes and to me they road very differently but they were also very different geometries which probably resulted in the majority of difference. When I had Tom build me a bike he said basically the same thing said above, words to the effect that he could build a bike that would ride the same with either tubeset. On the other hand he also described the extensive manipulation and swaging that Merlin does exclusively for him so I dunno, seems to me there's possibly more to it than just weight. Now granted saving a few hundred grams on a bike is, I think, overblown in its importance/impact on enjoying the bike. On the other hand, a couple hundred dollars increase on what's probably going to price out at 7-10K for a top shelf build custom ti bike isn't very significant either.

[jr59]

I'd pick your builder, ask them to build you their "best" bike for you and your intentions and leave it to them.



I had both JR59's ti bikes and to me they road very differently but they were also very different geometries which probably resulted in the majority of difference. When I had Tom build me a bike he said basically the same thing said above, words to the effect that he could build a bike that would ride the same with either tubeset. On the other hand he also described the extensive manipulation and swaging that Merlin does exclusively for him so I dunno, seems to me there's possibly more to it than just weight. Now granted saving a few hundred grams on a bike is, I think, overblown in its importance/impact on enjoying the bike. On the other hand, a couple hundred dollars increase on what's probably going to price out at 7-10K for a top shelf build custom ti bike isn't very significant either.



I think that had a lot to do with the steel fork, and the carbon fork. Swap the steel for a carbon and almost no difference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zank]

I don't think you can lump "butted" into one bucket. Some builders buy Reynolds, Dedacciai, or Feathertech butted ti tubing. Those have one profile per available diameter. Then others buy straight gauge, cut lengths, and then send it out to have it butted in bulk to their spec. They may have multiple profiles per diameter, but they are still predetermined. Then you have builders butting in house for each rider. That gives the most control for each individual.

There are so many variables that it's really hard to compare straight gauge to butted. All other things are rarely equal.

[Matthew]

I had a Serotta Concours that had a few butted tubes I believe. Currently own a Moots Compact that is all straight gauge. I much prefer the Moots. Lighter and simply rides better. Sold the Concours. Except for shaving off a few grams I don't think you will notice much difference. Your builder should be able to fabricate a great riding bike regardless of tubing choice.

[mhespenheide]

My google-fu is failing me and I can't find the specific reference, but Patrick Brady (of http://redkiteprayer.com/), who has ridden and tested a whole heck of a lot of bikes Ti and otherwise, said that a butted Ti frame feels more lively than straight gauge. I'm pretty sure that was in a review of a Seven, so presumably they're working at a pretty high level of fabrication and selecting tube-by-tube for the intended rider.

I can't personally compare; I've only ridden Ti as a butted production frame.

[mcteague]

Some tech info from Seven Cycle's site:

http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/tubeman.php

Tube Butting
A tube that is double butted, such as those found in Seven's Argen™ tube set, has a thicker wall at its ends and is thinner in its midsection. The joints of a frame are its most highly stressed areas, and in a typical titanium or steel frame, possess lower mechanical properties—i.e., strength—than the unheated portions of the tubes. Thus, most failures occur at the frame's joints. Butting efficiently strengthens the heat-affected zone at the joints without adding significant weight.

http://www.sevencycles.com/blog/tag/tube-butting/

With our double and ultra-butted frames, we can go even further in personalizing ride feel for the individual, refining the tubes to make them more compliant and lighter.

Tim

[djg]

Besides weight, no difference. That according to Tom Kellogg.

I’ve had both a ti super and a str gauged ti bike both by him, made by seven. No difference in the way they rode at all.

And the butted, didn’t dent all that easy

I have a butted Ti Super cross bike that Tom built for me — no dents anywhere, and the paint has held up great too. As you know, each tube is chosen for the rider and the application, so I wasn’t worried about the frame being underbuilt.

I just have the one Spectrum, so I cannot comment on the ride of its non-existant straight gauge twin, but I seem to recall Tom saying that straight gauge would offer a similar ride. The insurance company was willing to cover the Super, at the same deductible, so the lighter frame was definitely worth it to me. Either way, he did a great job.

[cachagua]

I've tended to naively assume that both titanium and steel would derive just about the same advantages from butting. But maybe the difference is that a steel tube needs to have more metal to make an adequate joint than it needs to yield a desirable ride, and therefore its ends need to be thicker? Maybe ti joints can be made stronger enough (than steel) that they don't benefit from any more metal?

In other words, maybe whereas a straight-gauge steel tube is thick enough to make an adequate joint all along its length, not just at the ends, a ti tube can be thin enough to yield a good ride all along its length, not just in the middle?

That make any sense?

[Mark McM]

Some tech info from Seven Cycle's site:

http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/tubeman.php

Tube Butting
A tube that is double butted, such as those found in Seven's Argen™ tube set, has a thicker wall at its ends and is thinner in its midsection. The joints of a frame are its most highly stressed areas, and in a typical titanium or steel frame, possess lower mechanical properties—i.e., strength—than the unheated portions of the tubes. Thus, most failures occur at the frame's joints. Butting efficiently strengthens the heat-affected zone at the joints without adding significant weight.

It think these statements may be a bit misleading. By and large, butted tubes are not thicker on the ends (than straight gauge tubes), they are thinner in the middle. Butted tubing isn't generally used for strength increases, but for weight reduction and stiffness modification. (This is similar to butted spokes, which are thinner in the middle but have the same thickeness at the ends, as compared to non-butted spokes.)

[Mark McM]

I've tended to naively assume that both titanium and steel would derive just about the same advantages from butting. But maybe the difference is that a steel tube needs to have more metal to make an adequate joint than it needs to yield a desirable ride, and therefore its ends need to be thicker? Maybe ti joints can be made stronger enough (than steel) that they don't benefit from any more metal?

In other words, maybe whereas a straight-gauge steel tube is thick enough to make an adequate joint all along its length, not just at the ends, a ti tube can be thin enough to yield a good ride all along its length, not just in the middle?

That make any sense?

I believe that this is largely true. Since titanium has roughly half the density (and have the modulus (i.e. stiffness) of steel, a titanium tube of the same diameter, weight and stiffness of a steel tube will have twice the wall thickness of the steel tube. So a titanium tube thick enough to provide good welded joint will be lighter than a steel tube of a wall thicknesses to provide a similar welded strength.

[Kirk007]

I think that had a lot to do with the steel fork, and the carbon fork. Swap the steel for a carbon and almost no difference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yep forgot about the fork difference. A good steel fork, in my opinion, carbon forks just can't match the ride quality.

[Tyler Evans]

Tyler Evans of Firefly has a really good post on this subject. Search for him and then search for the post.

I have a butted ti bike and it’s so nice.

Found it:

I’m going to respectfully disagree that there is “really only one reason”. There are other reasons… I feel the main reasons to use butted tubing are to control the ride quality and handling characteristics of the frame. Some companies make lightness their first priority and they are missing the point. You can actually build a stronger frame by using butted tubing. A butted frame dissipates the stresses away from the joints over the length of the tubes. Also, by controlling the wall thickness of the tube and the transitions between the different thicknesses you can dial in the feel of the frame, tuning the ride quality and performance characteristics of the frame. Lightness is great, but the rider is going to experience far more benefits from a tuned tubeset. Luckily the byproduct of the butting process is a lighter frame though. ;-)

That being said, all butted tubes are not the same and just because a company is using butted tubing does not mean they are making a better bike. A consumer should be mindful that the raw material used and the process by which the tubing is butted greatly affect the integrity of the final product.

I would personally go for a butted frame on a road or all-road style bike. I think it makes a difference. We butt all our tubes in-house, we wouldn't do it if we thought it didn't matter. We call our butting process "adaptive butting" (http://fireflybicycles.com/technology/) and we think it's worth it. We turn them over a mandril on our CNC lathe but there are many other ways to go about the butting process, some good, some not so good. I also don't want to detract from the lovely ride qualities of a well made straight gauge frame at all. A well made straight gauge frame is much better than a poorly butted butted frame. There are so many variables, butting is just one. "Bikes are a sum of their parts" as they say. Do they even say that? If they don't they should.

Funny how this question never comes up for steel bikes which are pretty much all butted.

[HenryA]

Found it:



I would personally go for a butted frame on a road or all-road style bike. I think it makes a difference. We butt all our tubes in-house, we wouldn't do it if we thought it didn't matter. We call our butting process "adaptive butting" (http://fireflybicycles.com/technology/) and we think it's worth it. We turn them over a mandril on our CNC lathe but there are many other ways to go about the butting process, some good, some not so good. I also don't want to detract from the lovely ride qualities of a well made straight gauge frame at all. A well made straight gauge frame is much better than a poorly butted butted frame. There are so many variables, butting is just one. "Bikes are a sum of their parts" as they say. Do they even say that? If they don't they should.

Funny how this question never comes up for steel bikes which are pretty much all butted.

Intelligently butted.

Butted as marketing is an empty answer. If some builder is really thinking about it, that’s a different story. That is what I would want to pay for (and have paid for).

[Butch]

I think both Zank and Tyler are on point. My experience has shown me that there is more to the conversation of what makes a great riding bike than just whether the frame has butted tubes. Butted tubes can fine tune the ride of the bike in the right builders hands with the correct tubing, but the "sum of the parts" has to add up.
I had a great conversation at Interbike with a very well respected product tester who is currently riding a bike I had a big part in designing. It has butted tubing but there are several design features on the frame beyond the butted top and down tube. The conversation circled around the difference in the ride from another bike in the product line. Both of us came to the same conclusion about the "feel" of both bikes. One we really, really like and the other, good but...
As I told him, after all the bikes I have been a part of in the 21 years at Moots, sometimes the combination of all the parts, tubes, geometry and design features add up to be "right". The comparison he and I shared was that of a great recipe, no specific ingredient overwhelms or dictates the flavor, the combination of ingredients/flavors combines to be "right. That dish keeps you coming back for more. All the time keeping in mind that 2 different diners or riders might not agree.
For me, same with a bike, whether it has butted tubes or not. For me the road/gravel bikes with butted tubes I have been part of have a ride that appeals to me more. Adventure and mountain bikes are less subtle and I think don't see the advantage. All of these we are talking Ti. Everyone has an opinion, just mine.

[pdmtong]

half the mount rushmore of ti has spoken...I think we can close the thread unless tom or kent are typing as I speak.

FWIW I have a 2013 Moots CR, C10, Bora 35 with cages pedals its 16.7 ish. Straight gauge and it rides just fine to me.

[cachagua]

All other things are rarely equal...


Truer words never spoken! Can I quote you on that?

[StephenCL]

I have an IF planetX Ti that's butted and a Moots psychloX that's straight gauge. I definitely notice the difference in weight. frames are basically the same (1cm shorter head-tube on the Moots, so also a slightly lower TT; otherwise identical frames). I'd say 1lb sounds about right but I've never stripped both bikes down and weighed the frames.



More like 200 grams for butted tubes...not 465...

Stephen

[eddief]

would anyone venture a guess for an average 60cm frame how much weight would be saved on butted vs straight tubed frame for a 200 lb rider? Seems as if you can butt for weight and for tuning performance, I'd like to know the weight savings?

[Climb01742]

So many threads here go spectacularly, ridiculously off the rails. It makes you shake your head. Then a thread like this pops up. A big thank you to the masters who've chimed in. Wow, getting real, first-hand, no BS knowledge. Who knew?;)

[Climb01742]

I think both Zank and Tyler are on point. My experience has shown me that there is more to the conversation of what makes a great riding bike than just whether the frame has butted tubes. Butted tubes can fine tune the ride of the bike in the right builders hands with the correct tubing, but the "sum of the parts" has to add up.
I had a great conversation at Interbike with a very well respected product tester who is currently riding a bike I had a big part in designing. It has butted tubing but there are several design features on the frame beyond the butted top and down tube. The conversation circled around the difference in the ride from another bike in the product line. Both of us came to the same conclusion about the "feel" of both bikes. One we really, really like and the other, good but...
As I told him, after all the bikes I have been a part of in the 21 years at Moots, sometimes the combination of all the parts, tubes, geometry and design features add up to be "right". The comparison he and I shared was that of a great recipe, no specific ingredient overwhelms or dictates the flavor, the combination of ingredients/flavors combines to be "right. That dish keeps you coming back for more. All the time keeping in mind that 2 different diners or riders might not agree.
For me, same with a bike, whether it has butted tubes or not. For me the road/gravel bikes with butted tubes I have been part of have a ride that appeals to me more. Adventure and mountain bikes are less subtle and I think don't see the advantage. All of these we are talking Ti. Everyone has an opinion, just mine.

Would it be spilling secrets if you said which frame 'the one' was? I'm intrigued. Thanks.

[Butch]

The bike we were talking about is the Routt RSL. When we decided to come out with a "performance" gravel bike I knew what I wanted, for me, out of the bike compared to the Routt and the Psychlo-X RSL. The first proto was taken to Interbike for introduction and I got to ride it for the next year or so. For that bike we changed up several geometry elements and tubing. For me and what I was looking for in a gravel bike it hit the mark in feel, handling, performance and comfort. That is not to say it is for everyone. Since that proto Nate came up with the idea to lengthen the chainstay to 430 from 423 so it will fit a 40mm tire, that is the bike I left Moots with, Dura-Ace Di2 Routt RSL with 430 chainstays.

I will share that as I was leaving Moots my riding buddies were looking at gravel bikes as well and I advised and help each get a bike. One got the Routt RSL, he uses it as a road bike too, one got a Routt and 2 got the Routt 45. Everyone is completely happy with their choice and each got the particular model for different reasons. The bike industry has become so niche specific with designs it is over the top, but why not take advantage and get just one more bike...

I really like to talk with the journalists testing bikes. The library of bikes they get to ride is amazing and there are a select few that articulate how a bike performs really well. As I said what we shared in that discussion was an appreciation for how a series of changes can hit the result that puts a smile on your face each time you ride it.

More than you asked for, sorry for the ramble.

Next weekend I head to Outerbike to ride a huge selection of full suspension mountain bikes, looking for the one that suits me best, can't wait.

[Climb01742]

Thank you very much. Really appreciate you taking the time to tell the whole tale.

[Dino Suegiù]

would anyone venture a guess for an average 60cm frame how much weight would be saved on butted vs straight tubed frame for a 200 lb rider? Seems as if you can butt for weight and for tuning performance, I'd like to know the weight savings?
I think it is relatively insubstantial "savings", especially versus the extra cost of the butted tubes, for a larger rider/larger frame considering the total combined bicycle/rider weight.

At least I was told this by a very experienced titanium-only frame-builder (my frames made by him are also 59/60). This builder basically advised me to spend the extra cost of the butted tubes on other lightweight components such as better wheels, etc., if I wanted to spend the money at all.

I do not remember that he gave me any exact weight savings comparison, but it was surely not a very large actual difference, while the butted frame was definitely much more expensive than straight-gauge. This was some years ago though; I do not know what the exact cost differences are today.

The difference for cyclists I know who choose one or the other tubing is really more performance/feeling-oriented, rather than simple weight-savings, in making a straight-gauge versus butted tubing decision.

[mingc]

What's the wall thickness of a non-butted tube versus a butted Ti tube? Am I correct in understanding that we're talking about less than 1mm even for an unbutted tube?

[Dino Suegiù]

What's the wall thickness of a non-butted tube versus a butted Ti tube? Am I correct in understanding that we're talking about less than 1mm even for an unbutted tube?

I hope the one of the expert titanium frame-builders will comment, but yes I think you are in the correct zone.

I guess the actual wall thicknesses depend on tube diameter, manufacturer, frame-builder specs, etc., but I think that basic 3/2.5 bicycle tubing for the 3 main tubes have wall thicknesses of +/- 0.9mm at the ends, and +/- 0.6mm in the center if butted. I apologize if those numbers are not accurate, I am not a frame-builder.

[metrotuned]

Had the pleasure of owning both the XT-2 (straight) and XT-1 (butted) from Mosaic and can confirm the difference is in between 100-200g in a large titanium cyclocross disc frame. We're talking larger diameter tubes on the XT1, visual and lifting by hand differences. Ride quality differences? Butt testing reveals ride is out of saddle livelier on the XT1 but the XT2 felt denser (adj: stout?) in comparison. Can ask paceliner mjb266 new owner of the XT-2 about his comparisons between IF ti/carbon and Mosaic carbon.

[soulspinner]

Found it:



I would personally go for a butted frame on a road or all-road style bike. I think it makes a difference. We butt all our tubes in-house, we wouldn't do it if we thought it didn't matter. We call our butting process "adaptive butting" (http://fireflybicycles.com/technology/) and we think it's worth it. We turn them over a mandril on our CNC lathe but there are many other ways to go about the butting process, some good, some not so good. I also don't want to detract from the lovely ride qualities of a well made straight gauge frame at all. A well made straight gauge frame is much better than a poorly butted butted frame. There are so many variables, butting is just one. "Bikes are a sum of their parts" as they say. Do they even say that? If they don't they should.

Funny how this question never comes up for steel bikes which are pretty much all butted.

Thanks for explaining this. My retirement bike will be ti so I have a steel, ti, and carbon bike.

[PaMtbRider]

would anyone venture a guess for an average 60cm frame how much weight would be saved on butted vs straight tubed frame for a 200 lb rider? Seems as if you can butt for weight and for tuning performance, I'd like to know the weight savings?

I'm going by memory here but I believe Tom Kellogg told me about 3/4 pound savings on a 61cm frame going with butted vs straight tubing. His pricing as of today is $ 4100 for straight $4400 for butted

[Mikej]

If you already have significantly light components, wheels etc, the additional cost of ti tube butting is a deal to lose 250 or so grams. What I'm saying is you wont be able to drop that much weight on any other parts for the additional $300 or so it costs to butt the ti.