Nick Crumpton - what’s up with the attitude?

[jonjones13]

I really don’t want to publicly bad-mouth a builder, but has anyone else on here had issues with a certain Mr Crumpton?

I just asked him (politely) for the geo on one of his frames which I have just bought (2nd hand) and this was his response, very disappointing...



Try this one Jon. If it doesn't work then get a tape measure and learn geometry.

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-eighth-grade-math/cc-8th-geometry

[seanile]

perhaps respond with an equation that offers enough leverage for him to remove the stick from his ass?

that's a pretty ****ty response if that's legit.

[velotrack]

dang. that's a bummer.

[Ken Robb]

He may not keep records of every bike he ever built so he wouldn't want to guess.

[jonjones13]

Pretty fuming here, what a prick (and told him so in my reply too!)

I bought his 2011 NAHBS showbike, so would’ve thought he’d have the geo on file. Just want to know the STA and HTA really, sheesh! Clearly doesn’t give a f*** about customer care. Oh well, one less customer here.....

[brownhound]

Nope - was the opposite of my experience when buying a second-hand SL Road.

I asked geo/fit question, and he actually ran my fit data through his CAD to give me his opinion about whether it'd fit me. (I thanked him extensively.) Admittedly, he didn't answer a follow-up question or two, but I felt I got more than I deserved. He got nothing from helping me.

A couple years later, after owning that frame, I had a question about some potential damage: sent him a picture, we exchanged some e-mails about it, and he kindly told me if it gets worse then follow up.

I still want to get to Austin to thank him personally (like drop off a gift bottle). Basically, the same experience I had with Dave Kirk.

Everyone has bad days, of course, so maybe two dudes talking past each other?

[spacemen3]

What a Delta Bravo to respond like that. Obviously, he can't give you the geometry because he doesn't know what a bike actually looks like. :rolleyes:

[thegunner]

is this bizarro world? i previously had sent him PMs asking dumb questions about carbon bike damage (not even his) and he was super super nice in his response, going well beyond what i'd expect...

[ColonelJLloyd]

I really don’t want to publicly bad-mouth a builder...
Well, it kinda looks as though you do.

Meh, it's his prerogative. And I suppose it's yours if you feel Paceline should be the Yelp of framebuilders.

I don't really think anyone owes you something you didn't pay for that cost them money and time to produce. People have bad days. I'm certainly not immune.

I just asked him (politely) for the geo on one of his frames which I have just bought (2nd hand)...[/url]

Pretty fuming here, what a prick (and told him so in my reply too!)

I bought his 2011 NAHBS showbike, so would’ve thought he’d have the geo on file. Just want to know the STA and HTA really, sheesh! Clearly doesn’t give a f*** about customer care. Oh well, one less customer here.....

Not seeing how you are a customer of his. But, I'm slow sometimes.

[dustyrider]

It’s for you decide. I got a similar feeling from serotta, when they were still around, and I acquired my first, used, Colorado cr. I figured I wasn’t worth their time, and there would be no way that I would pay them for their time after the initial interaction.

[jonjones13]

Hi Nick,
I’ve bought your 2011 NAHBS show bike, just wondering if you dig out the build sheet when you have a minute.
Thanks
Jonathan

[joosttx]

I agree with Nick. Learn geometry

[pgrizzwald]

Definitely not professional at all on his part. But, I have to admit I had a good laugh at his response!

[mhespenheide]

Obviously, if that's your experience, that's not good customer service.

On the flip side, though, I'm pretty astounded that any framebuilder is willing to spend the time to drag out geometry sheets or other information for someone who isn't the original customer. You didn't buy the frame from the builder; it costs them time with no income in return. I'm impressed with the astoundingly great service from the builders who are willing to stand behind their product even for the secondary market.

Coming back to this interaction, I could have understood if the response was "I don't release that information for bikes on the used market."

[jonjones13]

I agree with Nick. Learn geometry

Very willing to lean (and have a PhD in engineering, so I’m not a moron)

Please can you tell me then how to measure HTA an STA to 0.1 of a degree on an already built frame??

[d_douglas]

I think it was a bad day for him. I've been on the receiving end of advice from him in the past and he has been helpful.

Its a tough call - he is in the biz to sell new bikes, not to critique fit on used ones made custom for others. I can say that with authority because I was once in your position - with a new-to-me-and-utterly-gorgeous Crumpton frameset several years ago. I am sure he tires of people (like me) wishing I could find a used Crumpton that fits me perfectly for half of what he charges. That is why he charges for the custom bike experience.

I cannot say it was the greatest of responses, but I'd chalk it up to having a really crappy day. I would've said, 'No, sorry, I don't have that information available' and call it a day :)

[jonjones13]

Coming back to this interaction, I could have understood if the response was "I don't release that information for bikes on the used market."

If I’d got that I’d have been fine with it, maybe I’m just missing the joke....

[false_Aest]

Someone hand me some popcorn and the latest issue of Goop.

[91Bear]

I agree with Nick. Learn geometry

There was no need to be a dick about it. Grumpton could have just said, "i don't have the build sheet on that bike anymore but I'd be happy to tell you how tube lengths and angles are measured so you can do it yourself. Congratulations on being the new owner of a Crumpton."

[Llewellyn]

Really s****y reply from the builder. If he didn't want to answer then a polite "sorry but I don't provide that sort of info" would have been sufficient. His reply just makes him sound like an arse.

[jonjones13]

Surely, it’s in the interest of any frame builder to provide good after sales service, even if you’re not the original owner? Surely it has an effect on used prices and new frame sales as it affects desirability.

Would BMW give a similar attitude reply for a second hand owner of one of their cars?? I think not.

[cmg]

you can buy an angle finder from home depot or online. it'll get you close enough.

[OtayBW]

He may not keep records of every bike he ever built so he wouldn't want to guess.I don't know all the details, but I'd guess that that might have been a pretty good response....

Well, it kinda looks as though you do.

Meh, it's his prerogative. And I suppose it's yours if you feel Paceline should be the Yelp of framebuilders.

I don't really think anyone owes you something you didn't pay for that cost them money and time to produce. People have bad days. I'm certainly not immune.

Not seeing how you are a customer of his. But, I'm slow sometimes.Apparently, future customers don't seem to be of much concern, either....

[91Bear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHNdRvEb_Eo

[Ozz]

Hi Nick,
I’ve bought your 2011 NAHBS show bike, just wondering if you (sic) dig out the build sheet when you have a minute.
Thanks
Jonathan

Hmmmm......not really impolite or polite...but you just asked him to dig thru his files (sort of) without telling him why.

Maybe should have tried this:

Hi Nick,
I’ve bought your 2011 NAHBS show bike. Beautiful bike and I am really excited about it. I am hoping that you might still have the build sheet on file and could send me a copy when you have a minute. I would really appreciate it.
Much thanks
Jonathan

Maybe his response was cryptic humor that did not translate thru the interweb very well.....

Good luck.

[prototoast]

There's nothing a few dollars couldn't fix. Next time try:

Hi, I just bought one of your old bikes on the second hand market [insert picture and / or serial number]. I love the bike and was hoping to find out more about it. How much do you charge to find the original build sheet and any other specifications related to this bike?

And then the builder will say:

I'm glad to hear you like the bike. Send $50 [or whatever amount he or she considers sufficient. Some may even do it for free, but they'll still appreciate that you consider their time valuable] and I'll be happy to dig up everything I can about the frame and send it your way.

[joosttx]

Very willing to lean (and have a PhD in engineering, so I’m not a moron)
Please can you tell me then how to measure HTA an STA to 0.1 of a degree on an already built frame??

Why do you want to be that exact? I doubt you can feel 0.1 difference. Measure TT and DT to make angles in front aka a triangle and call Euclid.

[likebikes]

Very willing to lean (and have a PhD in engineering, so I’m not a moron)

Please can you tell me then how to measure HTA an STA to 0.1 of a degree on an already built frame??
protractor.

there's also smartphone apps that work very well.

[Buzz Killington]

Based on that sketch, I’d say 73 degree head angle and 72 degree seat tube angle +/- .5 degree.

[chrisroph]

Personally, I wouldn't bother a builder and ask for build details on a bike I bought used.

[Blown Reek]

Lance rode a Crumpton. Just sayin'.

[Pegoready]

Hmmmm......not really impolite or polite...but you just asked him to dig thru his files (sort of) without telling him why.

Maybe should have tried this:

Hi Nick,
I’ve bought your 2011 NAHBS show bike. Beautiful bike and I am really excited about it. I am hoping that you might still have the build sheet on file and could send me a copy when you have a minute. I would really appreciate it.
Much thanks
Jonathan

Maybe his response was cryptic humor that did not translate thru the interweb very well.....

Good luck.

Agreed. You initial email to him sort of supposes you have a right to the original build sheet, which you do not as the second hand owner. Asking him to dig it out is a little offensive. Ozz's note exudes graciousness in owning the bike and an ask to the specs if the builder has the time.

That being said, his response was completely off base. As the representative of a business he cannot respond like that, but we've all had bad days. I know I have!

[TonyG]

On the other hand I just got off a 35 minute phone call with Roland Della Santa about a frame he built for me in 1996. He was so cool I may have him build another just for the hell of it :)

[jonjones13]

My wife and I own a small business too, and wouldn’t dream of speaking to a customer in such a way.

Nick just responded and said he would provide the build sheet......for $200

[ultraman6970]

??????????

Probably is not even him the person who is answering, who knows.

[bicycletricycle]

I guess we have a front runner for the new Bruce Gordon.

I understand that people want to be compensated for their time but rude is rude.

[jonjones13]

Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

[weaponsgrade]

I certainly get that he doesn't owe you anything, time is money, etc. but crappy day or not, that's not you respond to inquires.

[joosttx]

Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

Couldn’t imagine doing business with a guy who passive aggressively smears a person when they feel a little bit slighted. Buyer Beware.

[zap]

I purchased a slightly used Crumpton some years ago. I had a question so I called (my preferred method of long distance communication) Nick and we had a nice conversation.

[jonjones13]

Couldn’t imagine doing business with a guy who passive aggressively smears a person when the feel to little bit slighted. Buyer Beware.

Oh, come on......

[prototoast]

Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

I might be interested if it's the right size. Do you have the original build sheet?

[jonjones13]

i might be interested if it's the right size. Do you have the original build sheet?

:) :)

[dbnm]

I hope he's just having a bad day.

[cgolvin]

>> Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

> I might be interested if it's the right size. Do you have the original build sheet?

…beat me to it

[Mzilliox]

its electronic only correct?

im a bit surprised at the response, as hes been nothing but helpful to me in the past. maybe there's a bit of history on this particular frame that may have factored in. it is what it is, only now someone did get hurt.

[Tony]

My wife and I own a small business too, and wouldn’t dream of speaking to a customer in such a way.

Nick just responded and said he would provide the build sheet.....for $200

WOW! Interesting tread. Crumpton was one I was looking forward seeing at this years NAHBS in Sacto and maybe purchasing. Depending on how this thread ends I may be looking elsewhere.

[93KgBike]

I really don’t want to publicly bad-mouth a builder, but has anyone else on here had issues with a certain Mr Crumpton?

I just asked him (politely) for the geo on one of his frames which I have just bought (2nd hand) and this was his response, very disappointing...



Try this one Jon. If it doesn't work then get a tape measure and learn geometry.

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-eighth-grade-math/cc-8th-geometry

That response is hilarious. Plus he gave you geo's, and you're bad-mouthing him to all of us. I'd say that the snake has eaten its tail on this one.

[kevinvc]

I bought a used DeSalvo a few years ago and emailed back and forth with Mike for a while. He wasn't always able to get back to me right away, but he's a busy guy. He would eventually respond that he had been getting ready for NAHBS, on vacation, or whatever.

One of the things I asked was if he had the build sheet. Unfortunately, he had lost all of his older records in a computer crash. I also asked if I could buy a set of replacement decals. At first he said he would sell them for $20, which I thought was reasonable, then he just sent them to me for free and wouldn't accept payment.

The guy was really nice. I really hope to make it to Ashland one of these days and thank him in person.

[Tony]

Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

What size?

[d_douglas]

I think this thread has kinda run its course, hasn’t it?

I mean, you’re choked at the interaction with Nick and we are aware - I sense this will just go on and on here?

I’d be down for a 57.5cm Crumpton if that’s what you’re holding :)? Nicest bike I have ever owned, bar none...

[ultraman6970]

Size??? not that im going to wales to get it tho...

Jonjon... did you see the times of the new pursuit record??? Insane eh?



Anyone fancy buying a 2011 NAHBS Crumpton ? I’m serious, couldn’t bear keeping it/riding it now...

[huck*this]

I just want to see what said bike looks like!

Maybe this >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHNdRvEb_Eo

Side note. He was very helpful when I chatted with him about my T5 I purchased 2nd hand. I chalk it up to a bad day.

[ergott]

I don't know the whole story here, but this flies in the face of every encounter I've had with Nick. I don't own a Crumpton, I don't send business his way and he doesn't send business my way so I have no vested interest here.

We spoken via email, PMs, ridden together, and met at a NAHBS show. Every time he has been one of the most professional guys I've spoken to in this industry. He has always been forthcoming about inner workings of the the frame building business from his standpoint. I've never heard him badmouth a customer or anything like that.

I think it's just as important for me to share my many experiences with Nick since they are clearly very different from the OP. That's most unusual and nothing like the experience of anyone else I've seen.

[Tony]

I think this thread has kinda run its course, hasn’t it?

I mean, you’re choked at the interaction with Nick and we are aware - I sense this will just go on and on here?

I’d be down for a 57.5cm Crumpton if that’s what you’re holding :)? Nicest bike I have ever owned, bar none...

Nope, waiting for Nick to respond.

[d_douglas]

Nope, waiting for Nick to respond.

I was hoping he wouldn't have to and spare us all the pain of reading. In my opinion, this is really between himself and Jon. I am sure he's flush with business, but I imagine this isn't the kind of press he wants regardless.

[cnighbor1]

Most I have meet sure weren't from the normal run of men you meet
( haven't meet a female frame builder) so I just accept what they throw out and try to make sense of it
Why be into great bicycles if all was normal
The architect and I learned above from being with my fellow Architects.
If you need to know the insane thought process behind of our concussions your in for a very convoluted long thought process

[Tony]

I was hoping he wouldn't have to and spare us all the pain of reading. In my opinion, this is really between himself and Jon. I am sure he's flush with business, but I imagine this isn't the kind of press he wants regardless.

I disagree. Customer service is very important to me. I would like to hear what he has to say regarding the email sent.

[damocles]

Something whacky going on here... I've seen Nick very engaged on the topic of 2nd owners of his frames before.

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f3/55ish-crumpton-sl-29697.html

I ended up buying that and trading some emails with him on it that were super polite.

[buddybikes]

he may have been sniping at you as you didn't do due diligence and ask the seller and know if thing actually "perfectly" fit you. Personally if I were buying bike of that quality, knowing it was a custom bike, asked what the geo was...

[Keith A]

There are obviously differing opinions on this issue, and I want to make sure that this discussion remains civil and courteous.

Thanks.

[Fixed]

Artists can be moody
Building bikes is a solitary process and:) some guys like bikes better than people

[zetroc]

Tone is hard to interpret accurately via the written word.

[htwoopup]

As far as I am concerned, it is absolutely absurd to even be having this "discussion".

The OP is not a customer of Crumpton as he bought second hand.

He therefore has no business complaining about customer service as he has not spent a penny with the company and has no intention of doing so and thus is not a customer who could even pretend to want service.

He has no intention of spending a penny with the builder.

When you buy a custom built frame second hand you are not buying a frame that was made for you. It is better than a Huffy at Walmart but it was not engineered, designed, and crafted for you.

And Crumpton is a small operation. Seven while bigger is still small compared to the guys that stamp bikes out like Trek and Spesh. A second hand customer has no business asking Crumpton, Seven or any of the others for any help.

If they get any help even though they did not spend any money with the builder and do not intend to, they should count themselves lucky that a busy professional was able to find the time to help them out.

And I find it absolutely repugnant that anyone would bad mouth a person that they did not do business with while playing the "I am not bad mouthing" lie.

If this post is enough to get me banned here, then so be it. These thoughts are just the way that I was brought up to think of and treat other people...with respect not "what can they do for me".

[David Kirk]

This is NOT an apology for Nick's response to you - full stop. I don't know the full story and will not chime in one way or the other on this.

At the same time if he's frustrated by these type of questions I get that. I get on average a geometry request about bikes out there on average of about 2-3 a month. I really don't mind it most of the time but the rudeness exhibited by some of the people requesting the info is staggering. Sometimes I hear from the original owner who lost the build sheet and I'm happy to find the file from 13 years ago and give them the info. No problem. They paid me for this service in my eyes and I'm happy to take care of them.

Sometimes I hear from the second or third owner of the bike who demands I tell them every little thing about the bike they now own and about the height, weight, age, sex, leg length, saddle height.....etc of the person the bike was built for. They demand I tell them the wall thickness of the tubes and the butt lengths. This is not an exaggeration.

If that isn't over-the-top enough then this will be.....the new owner of the bike will sometimes challenge the answers I give them. I tell them the top tube is 55.5 cm and they come back and tell me I should learn more about how to use a tape rule because it's clearly not 55.5 in their eyes. I could not make this up. This example involved a beloved member of this forum FWIW.

Keep in mind that the original owner of the bike paid for the builder's time and expertise.....if you are not the original owner you are asking for the builder to do you a favor for free. The builder does not owe the 3rd owner of a bike anything....being polite seems like a good idea at all times but they are not obligated to tell the new owner anything about the bike or the person it was actually built for.

Why do I share this rant? Maybe to get it off my chest to a certain extent and maybe so that those of you out there who want a builder to spend time doing something for you for free will keep it in mind and ask nice....maybe follow up with a thank you card or a small token of appreciation.

One place I'll bet I can speak for Nick and most any other builder out there is that I really enjoy working for the vast majority of my customers. Most are super cool and respectful. They don't call at 8:00pm and they pay their bills and even say "thank you." That said there are a surprising number of customers (and owners of used bikes they bought) who are shockingly rude, condescending, and disrespectful. I could share stories that would make most readers jaws drop but I won't waste your time. I say this because most people assume it must be awesome to build bikes for a living and for the most part it is....but I've had some "are you effing kidding me?!!" moments that are hard to imagine.

I'm out.

dave

[nicrump]

Since Jon Jones decided to take a private conversation public, I'll have to chime in.

Jon Jones has never been nor will ever be a customer of Crumpton Cycles beyond once buying a single derailleur hanger.

Jon Jones has a history of flipping my bikes though he will deny it.

The rub-->In 2012 Jone Jones drug me through the weeds for 3 months on buying a demo bike directly from me. On 2 occasions in that colossal clusterfook Jon Jones committed to a price, then backed out and came back asking for a lower price. I have the emails and my grasp on the English language is pretty good.

I no longer have time to help Jon Jones flip bikes.

My reputation for customer service stands and has nothing to do with this person buying and selling used bicycles that bear my name. These transactions have nothing to do with me.

These are my first and last words in this thread.

[false_Aest]

Popcorn is done.
Goop kind've sucks.

Dave wins this round.

[sfo1]

Well said.

The second hand bike world is full of Craigslist shoppers on a two-buck chuck budget (expecting Gaja-like service).



This is NOT an apology for Nick's response to you - full stop. I don't know the full story and will not chime in one way or the other on this.

At the same time if he's frustrated by these type of questions I get that. I get on average a geometry request about bikes out there on average of about 2-3 a month. I really don't mind it most of the time but the rudeness exhibited by some of the people requesting the info is staggering. Sometimes I hear from the original owner who lost the build sheet and I'm happy to find the file from 13 years ago and give them the info. No problem. They paid me for this service in my eyes and I'm happy to take care of them.

Sometimes I hear from the second or third owner of the bike who demands I tell them every little thing about the bike they now own and about the height, weight, age, sex, leg length, saddle height.....etc of the person the bike was built for. They demand I tell them the wall thickness of the tubes and the butt lengths. This is not an exaggeration.

If that isn't over-the-top enough then this will be.....the new owner of the bike will sometimes challenge the answers I give them. I tell them the top tube is 55.5 cm and they come back and tell me I should learn more about how to use a tape rule because it's clearly not 55.5 in their eyes. I could not make this up. This example involved a beloved member of this forum FWIW.

Keep in mind that the original owner of the bike paid for the builder's time and expertise.....if you are not the original owner you are asking for the builder to do you a favor for free. The builder does not owe the 3rd owner of a bike anything....being polite seems like a good idea at all times but they are not obligated to tell the new owner anything about the bike or the person it was actually built for.

Why do I share this rant? Maybe to get it off my chest to a certain extent and maybe so that those of you out there who want a builder to spend time doing something for you for free will keep it in mind and ask nice....maybe follow up with a thank you card or a small token of appreciation.

One place I'll bet I can speak for Nick and most any other builder out there is that I really enjoy working for the vast majority of my customers. Most are super cool and respectful. They don't call at 8:00pm and they pay their bills and even say "thank you." That said there are a surprising number of customers (and owners of used bikes they bought) who are shockingly rude, condescending, and disrespectful. I could share stories that would make most readers jaws drop but I won't waste your time. I say this because most people assume it must be awesome to build bikes for a living and for the most part it is....but I've had some "are you effing kidding me?!!" moments that are hard to imagine.

I'm out.

dave

[Tony]

Since Jon Jones decided to take a private conversation public, I'll have to chime in.

Jon Jones has never been nor will ever be a customer of Crumpton Cycles beyond once buying a single derailleur hanger.

Jon Jones has a history of flipping my bikes though he will deny it.

The rub-->In 2012 Jone Jones drug me through the weeds for 3 months on buying a demo bike directly from me. On 2 occasions in that colossal clusterfook Jon Jones committed to a price, then backed out and came back asking for a lower price. I have the emails and my grasp on the English language is pretty good.

I no longer have time to help Jon Jones flip bikes.

My reputation for customer service stands and has nothing to do with this person buying and selling used bicycles that bear my name. These transactions have nothing to do with me.

These are my first and last words in this thread.

Perfect! Thanks!

[HenryA]

Great answer Nick.

Jon, you had the bike in your hands — why do you think Crumpton owed you anything when you had not spent a penny with him? Measure it your self!

Is this the Paceline version of a Supreme Court nomination? What the heck makes you think Nick Crumpton owes you anything at all? He doesn’t owe you a thing.

Wanker.

[weaponsgrade]

Hmmm...I stand corrected.

[AngryScientist]

As usual, there are two sides to every story, and I think we have now had both.

I think it's a good time to close this thread with both parties having the opportunity to chime in.

I want to thank Dave Kirk for his usual measured, thoughtful and reasonable insight here, I personally appreciate his participation and the glimpses "behind the curtain".

Also thank you to Mr Crumpton for his side of the story.

I don't think there is much more to discuss here.