Custom frame, stem length

[thejen12]

Without going into my non-proportioned body size and past injuries and upper back pain, suffice it to say that I need a custom frame and will never fit on a stock frame. (This has been confirmed after several years of physical therapy, as well.)

My builder has spec'ed out a decidedly non-standard geometry to accomodate my needs. He's using a fork with a 50 mm rake, a 70 degree head tube and a 5cm stem to bring the handling in line. When I first heard about the 5cm stem, I kind of freaked. With a stock bike, a 5cm stem would be a big no-no. But if the bike is designed from the start to have a 5cm stem, does that make it more reasonable? I'm thinking that it does, but wanted to double check that with the gurus on this board.

I'm not asking if a different geometry would be better (I trust my builder on that), just double checking that a 5cm stem won't seem as weird as it sounds if the bike is designed for it.

Thanks everybody!

Jenn

[WickedWheels]

Yikes!

You'd better REALLY trust your builder. With numbers like that I'd be asking for a second opinion from another builder, even if you've gotta pay for it.

[labratmatt]

Yikes!

You'd better REALLY trust your builder. With numbers like that I'd be asking for a second opinion from another builder, even if you've gotta pay for it.

I second that. A five cm stem is the thing nightmares and cheap porn are made of.

[dbrk]

I suppose this is like playing a doctor on TV but...I dunno about this design...I don't think it's really allll that right...Ask House or call Jack Bauer for another opinion. It's not the fit that concerns me, it's the solution.

dbrk

[stevep]

sounds like a complex case dr watson,
you should get a 2nd opinion before you lay any $$$ down.

[Smiley]

Jenn , one assumes that he has figured on using 650 wheels the shortest reach handlebars on the market etc . I had a difficult fit for a very small woman client and the only way I could sell her a bike was with flat bars and not drop bars or I would have needed a 5 cm stem too. Sometimes you need to look outside the box for the answer.

BTW , My client is very happy with her road bike with flat bars but if she was not going to do this solution I offered her to take her business to Bike Friday or I would not put my name on the fit.

[CNY rider]

I think the second opinion is key, because you are going to own that bike forever. It will have no resale value, given the odd geometry. Maybe it's exactly the right thing for you and you will ride it happily ever after, but there's no going back on this one. I'd spend some time and a few extra dollars to get this one just right.

[thejen12]

Well, a second opinion was not something I'd thought of, thanks for the suggestion! I did ride the configuration on the fitting machine (a bunch of square tubes with handlebars, pedals, and saddle), and my body really liked it. I just couldn't see what it would look like as a bike, as there were no wheels, etc. At that time I didn't know a 5cm stem would be involved, the builder took down the numbers and designed the bike from them later.

I did ask the builder about 650c wheels, several times, and he told me he thought I would be happier with this configuration than with 650c wheels. I never expressed a disklike for 650c wheels, I didn't want to influence his design - in fact, I was surprised (but glad) when he told me he'd be using 700c wheels.

Part of his design is to move the saddle back considerably, in order to distribute my weight properly so that not too much is on my hands. If I didn't care for that position (although I liked it on the fitting machine), I could move the saddle forward and go to a 6cm stem. I'm actually riding a 6cm stem now on a stock bike (the reach is still too long, though) and if I don't actually look at the stem, I have to admit that the bike rides just fine, I don't have any handling issues. I'm also using Salsa Poco handlebars, I don't know of any others with a shorter reach!

By the way, the "reach" on the new bike from saddle tip to center of the bar tops will be 42.5cm.

Thanks for the ideas,

Jenn

[Ginger]

What's the drop?

I think if you're dealing with an experienced builder and a custom geo, and that's how he's going to solve your issue, he has done what he needs to to balance your weight on the bike and the 5cm stem is probably just fine. If you go for a second opinion, you're going to get just that...a different opinion about how to solve the problem...not necessarily an opinion about *that* geo.

What I think you should do is ask the builder for a referral to one of his other clients who has one of his bikes with a similar geo and short stem. I think that would be more to the point than asking someone else if that geometry "works." Ask someone else who is riding it what they think, what they like, and what they don't like.

Good luck!

[Smiley]

Well, a second opinion was not something I'd thought of, thanks for the suggestion! I did ride the configuration on the fitting machine (a bunch of square tubes with handlebars, pedals, and saddle), and my body really liked it. I just couldn't see what it would look like as a bike, as there were no wheels, etc. At that time I didn't know a 5cm stem would be involved, the builder took down the numbers and designed the bike from them later.

I did ask the builder about 650c wheels, several times, and he told me he thought I would be happier with this configuration than with 650c wheels. I never expressed a disklike for 650c wheels, I didn't want to influence his design - in fact, I was surprised (but glad) when he told me he'd be using 700c wheels.

Part of his design is to move the saddle back considerably, in order to distribute my weight properly so that not too much is on my hands. If I didn't care for that position (although I liked it on the fitting machine), I could move the saddle forward and go to a 6cm stem. I'm actually riding a 6cm stem now on a stock bike (the reach is still too long, though) and if I don't actually look at the stem, I have to admit that the bike rides just fine, I don't have any handling issues. I'm also using Salsa Poco handlebars, I don't know of any others with a shorter reach!

By the way, the "reach" on the new bike from saddle tip to center of the bar tops will be 42.5cm.

Thanks for the ideas,

Jenn
I think 650 wheels should be a must when you have that short a top tube .

[cpg]

A 70 degree head tube coupled with 5cm of rake will give you too much trail for a 700C wheeled bike. I'd get a second opinion.

Curt

[znfdl]

Jen:

I will give you an overview of my wife's experience, which may or may not relate to you.

Tom Kellog designed two bikes for my wife who is extremely short waisted. Her seat tube is 58 c to c and top tube is 48 c to c. The first bike that Tom designed, my wife was adamant that it have 700c wheels, as she was serious crit racer at the time. Needless to say she thought that she loved this bike. Trust me, the 700c wheeled bike allowed her to race at a very high level and was a great bike.

Years later, we got another Tom Kellog creation, but this time it was designed with 650 wheels. After riding the bike for 100 feet, she said "Oh My God, this is what a bike should feel like".

Her head tube angle is 72 degrees. I can not remember what fork rake was used.

This is not to say that 700c wheels would not work for you, but you should get a second opiniion from someone who is comfortable designing a bike with 650 wheels and then decide which design makes more sense to you.

[billrick]

A couple of quick comments . . .

If I recall correctly, we are talking about a frame builder who is well-known for building bikes that "fit." And he is a PBP finisher, so he should know something about comfort and handling. The numbers do seem a little whacky to me, but you should have faith in your builder and be able to talk to him about this.

A second idea, are you looking for a race bike or a comfortable, all-around bike? If the latter, have you thought about 650B (not 650C) wheels? 650Bs are comfortable and fast, and yet they are smaller diameter than 700C so it might solve you TCO issue. You are not too far from Walnut Creek, CA, home of Rivendell World Headquarters. They should have a 650B bike that you could test to see how it feels.

Just my .02 worth.

:)

[thejen12]

Billrick, you are correct about the reputation of the builder, and I do trust him quite a lot. I know his reputation is on the line with every frame, and I've never heard of his having a less-than ecstatic customer.

Znfdl, you're wife's experience is very interesting! I wonder what the geometry differences were between the two bikes that made her feel differently about them?

I talked to my local bike-shop-guy, and he said he couldn't find any 5cm stems in his QBP, so I called the builder back to ask him if he meant to use a stock stem or a custom stem. He said it was a stock stem and he uses them "all the time".

I also decided to ask the builder to design the frame with 650c wheels so we could look at the differences and trade-offs. He agreed to do this. I'm thinking of it as a "sanity check".

Thanks for the continued suggestions,

Jenn

[J.Greene]

Jenn,

I mean this respectfully....At some point your going to have to take a gut check and decide if you trust this builder to build this bike or not. As a frame builder said to me recently "your buying the builders time" not just his product. IMO if you trust this guy, let him build the bike he KNOWS is best for you. If you feel he can't do that, find another builder. Call Serotta. Your builder is the one who should have the specific answers to your fit, if this forum knows more than he, I think your in trouble atmo.

JG

[mwos]

Jenn,

I agree with the idea of building the frame for 650's. I recently built a Serotta custom frame. Because my frame is small and I've been riding 650c wheels for 11 years I decided to stay with them.

Here are the specs on my frame, TT length 51 cm, seat tip to HB 43.5, seat tube angle 74.8, stem length 8.2, seat tube length 48 cm.

When I first got this bike I had the same reaction as Znfdl's wife, this is what a real bike feels like, (I had been riding a stock frame that I loved but didn't fit well). The bike handles so well and rides like a dream. Serotta and my LBS did a wonderful job designing the frame for me.

Also, here's a link to my question on short reach handlebars. I found out that Pocos aren't the only ones available.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.phpt=15618&highlight=short+reach+handlebars

I have the Modolo Venus and love them, they come small enough for me, 34 cm and I can now reach my brake levers.

Good luck,

Kathi

[thejen12]

Jenn,

I mean this respectfully....At some point your going to have to take a gut check and decide if you trust this builder to build this bike or not. As a frame builder said to me recently "your buying the builders time" not just his product. IMO if you trust this guy, let him build the bike he KNOWS is best for you. If you feel he can't do that, find another builder. Call Serotta. Your builder is the one who should have the specific answers to your fit, if this forum knows more than he, I think your in trouble atmo.

JG

Thanks, J.Greene,

I totally agree with you. Yes, I DO trust this builder. Actually, my question was not "is this the right geometry", but "is a 5 cm stem less crazy on a bike that was designed for a 5 cm stem than it is on a stock bike"?

I've read some cases in the forum where people bought used bikes that may have been custom designed for someone else and changed the stem length to suit themselves and then thought the bike did not handle as well, possibly because it was designed to be ridden with a different stem length. It got me thinking. Normally if someone says they are putting a 5 cm on a stock bike, people will advise that the handling will be a problem, but I was guessing, and just looking for confirmation, that a 5 cm stem on a bike designed to have a 5 cm stem will probably handle just as well as a bike with a 10 cm stem that was designed to have a 10 cm stem. I think the only thing I lose with a 5 cm stem, in this case, is adjustability down the road. I don't like losing that, but since this is a custom frame, it's not likely to be a problem.

That said, I still have a hunger to learn more about bike geometry and handling and stuff, so I appreciate all the different viewpoints.

Jenn

[SoCalSteve]

Without going into my non-proportioned body size and past injuries and upper back pain, suffice it to say that I need a custom frame and will never fit on a stock frame. (This has been confirmed after several years of physical therapy, as well.)

My builder has spec'ed out a decidedly non-standard geometry to accomodate my needs. He's using a fork with a 50 mm rake, a 70 degree head tube and a 5cm stem to bring the handling in line. When I first heard about the 5cm stem, I kind of freaked. With a stock bike, a 5cm stem would be a big no-no. But if the bike is designed from the start to have a 5cm stem, does that make it more reasonable? I'm thinking that it does, but wanted to double check that with the gurus on this board.

I'm not asking if a different geometry would be better (I trust my builder on that), just double checking that a 5cm stem won't seem as weird as it sounds if the bike is designed for it.

Thanks everybody!

Jenn

Would this be a "jerk approved" stem?

[mwos]

Jenn,

I agree with the idea of building the frame for 650's. I recently built a Serotta custom frame. Because my frame is small and I've been riding 650c wheels for 11 years I decided to stay with them.

Here are the specs on my frame, TT length 51 cm, seat tip to HB 43.5, seat tube angle 74.8, stem length 8.2, seat tube length 48 cm.

When I first got this bike I had the same reaction as Znfdl's wife, this is what a real bike feels like, (I had been riding a stock frame that I loved but didn't fit well). The bike handles so well and rides like a dream. Serotta and my LBS did a wonderful job designing the frame for me.

Also, here's a link to my question on short reach handlebars. I found out that Pocos aren't the only ones available.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.phpt=15618&highlight=short+reach+handlebars

I have the Modolo Venus and love them, they come small enough for me, 34 cm and I can now reach my brake levers.

Good luck,

Kathi


Jenn,

I forgot to add that my tt has a slight slope to it.

[crossjunkee]

Makes a 5cm stem. Not very elegant, but they work.

http://www.3ttt.com/ing/fr_attacchi.htm

The - Stem

and

MUTANGOLO

[thejen12]

Makes a 5cm stem. Not very elegant, but they work.

http://www.3ttt.com/ing/fr_attacchi.htm

The - Stem

and

MUTANGOLO

Thanks! Although I think the Mutangolo starts at 9.5, written with a comma, the European way. The - Stem seems to start at 5, though.

Jenn

[thejen12]

A 70 degree head tube coupled with 5cm of rake will give you too much trail for a 700C wheeled bike. I'd get a second opinion.

Curt

Curt, the trail will be 70.

thanks, Jenn

[thejen12]

Would this be a "jerk approved" stem?

Hmm,

I'm kind of new here. How does one get a stem "jerk approved"? Does it involve some expensive destructive testing, or just delivering a sample stem to the jerk with a plate of warm cookies?

Thanks!

Jenn

[cpg]

Curt, the trail will be 70.

thanks, Jenn


Have you ridden a bike with that much trail?

Curt

[crossjunkee]

Thanks! Although I think the Mutangolo starts at 9.5, written with a comma, the European way. The - Stem seems to start at 5, though.

Jenn

Oops, you're right! Keep us posted on how this turns out.

[Birddog]

Curt, the trail will be 70.

WOW!!, that's even more trail than Sinatra had!

Birddog

[thejen12]

Have you ridden a bike with that much trail?

Curt

Probably not. What should I expect? I think crit riding would be out, but my crit riding days are long over. :rolleyes: I was looking at some small stock bikes from Specialized and they all have 700c wheels and at least one specs a trail of 68, that I recall. The only dimension I've really played with on my bikes is stem length, I've had that all over the map on the same bike and never had handling issues on either the long side or the short side, but I don't think that affects the trail.

The primary purpose of this bike is to keep me on the road for 75+ miles a day, day in and day out (for touring), without pain. Weekend rides with friends and the odd century thrown in, too. Speed is the least of my concerns, I just wanna ride!

Jenn

[cpg]

Jenn,

I've resisted saying anything and by no means want to step on the toes of your builder but you asked the original question which to me implies a lack of trust in your builder. I would never design a bike around a 5cm stem unless it was a last resort. There are a few options for stems. There are 5cm stems that are designed for downhill mountain bikes.

I don't know what your body dimensions are but I'm guessing you aren't very tall and/or need a very short reach to the bars. The design you've described so far seems to be full of compromises based mainly on the desire to use 700C wheels. The builder has chosen a short top tube and spec'd a 70 degree head angle as an attempt to compensate and increase the front center. I'm guessing the builder is also spec'ing a carbon fork given the 50mm of rake. I'm guessing that because that's the max rake one can get in carbon forks. A 70 degree head angle can handle fine if coupled with a fork with more rake. Yes, there are some small production bikes nearing that in trail and they are rideable. But that fact should not be viewed as a benchmark. They could ride WAY better if they weren't designed around a 700C wheel. The only reason those stock bikes are designed that way is to save money. They save money by using one wheel size throughout all the sizes. But you aren't looking for that. You are looking for a custom bike. One that's designed for you and your needs. Not designed to limit sku's.

This is not the place for me to undermine your relationship with your builder nor do I wish to. Maybe I should have just shut my mouth. But you asked the question and I do know a few things about these sort of things. Someone that's vertically challenged posted earlier about having a custom built around 700C and it rode fine. Later they had a custom built around smaller wheels. The smaller wheels allowed the builder to better design the frame for her. She had a revelation that this is how a bike should handle. This is a very common revelation. A person can get used to anything and that's why short people can ride these compromised designs. But when they try a proper design they feel the difference in a positive way.

I wish you luck.

Curt

[thejen12]

Hi Curt,

I appreciate your responses. In my original post I was not questioning the geometry of the bike. When my builder gave me the specs, my little brain honed in on the 5cm stem, remembering that such a short stem is usually not good for handling. Then I remembered reading opinions here that a bike designed for a certain length stem handles best with that size stem. So I thought to myself, "if my bike is designed for a 5cm stem, then putting a 5cm stem on it would not be strange, right?" Then I thought, "I'll just run that assumption by the smart folks on the Serotta list, because they seem to know a lot about that kind of stuff." Anyway, my builder says it will handle fine, and I believe him.

For the record, I have long legs and a very short upper body, with back injuries to boot. I did not ask my builder for 700c wheels, I wanted to see what he would come up with. This is the same builder that urged my friend to go to 650 wheels, so I know he'll make either kind of bike. I'm very sensitive to road noise through the front end (it causes me pain), and that's why he spec'ed a carbon fork, and possibly why he spec'ed the 700c wheels.

I respect your expertise and I do have a question for you. How will the 70 trail affect the handling of the bike? I've heard two comments about it, "slow" and "stable". What I'm curious about is, will it affect how I pick my line on a descent, or how I am able to stay on a line I've picked? I feel like I steer mostly through leaning. Of the two stock bikes I've been riding this year, I feel like the one with the higher bottom bracket is harder to lean (though it did get easier when I lowered the handlebars 2-3 inches after months of physical therapy). I would say that I prefer the bike with the lower bottom bracket. Is the feel of a longer trail going to be kind of like the feeling of the higher bottom bracket?

Thanks, Jenn

[David Kirk]

Jenn,

I've resisted saying anything and by no means want to step on the toes of your builder but you asked the original question which to me implies a lack of trust in your builder. I would never design a bike around a 5cm stem unless it was a last resort. There are a few options for stems. There are 5cm stems that are designed for downhill mountain bikes.

I don't know what your body dimensions are but I'm guessing you aren't very tall and/or need a very short reach to the bars. The design you've described so far seems to be full of compromises based mainly on the desire to use 700C wheels. The builder has chosen a short top tube and spec'd a 70 degree head angle as an attempt to compensate and increase the front center. I'm guessing the builder is also spec'ing a carbon fork given the 50mm of rake. I'm guessing that because that's the max rake one can get in carbon forks. A 70 degree head angle can handle fine if coupled with a fork with more rake. Yes, there are some small production bikes nearing that in trail and they are rideable. But that fact should not be viewed as a benchmark. They could ride WAY better if they weren't designed around a 700C wheel. The only reason those stock bikes are designed that way is to save money. They save money by using one wheel size throughout all the sizes. But you aren't looking for that. You are looking for a custom bike. One that's designed for you and your needs. Not designed to limit sku's.

This is not the place for me to undermine your relationship with your builder nor do I wish to. Maybe I should have just shut my mouth. But you asked the question and I do know a few things about these sort of things. Someone that's vertically challenged posted earlier about having a custom built around 700C and it rode fine. Later they had a custom built around smaller wheels. The smaller wheels allowed the builder to better design the frame for her. She had a revelation that this is how a bike should handle. This is a very common revelation. A person can get used to anything and that's why short people can ride these compromised designs. But when they try a proper design they feel the difference in a positive way.

I wish you luck.

Curt

props word and atmo.

Dave

[Tailwinds]

I knew a woman of short stature that bought a custom Seven. She insisted on 700c wheels against her shop's advice. I used to be afraid to ride close to her because with every pedal stroke, her tiny little bike w/the big wheels would twitch back and forth, back and forth.

Now, she has a bike w/650c wheels, and her bike just goes in a straight line, smoothly (like it should).

Be cautious imho.

[David Kirk]

The wheel size thing is an odd one. Frames, forks, stems, cranks, seats, bars, shoes,...etc, all come in different sizes so we can get the things to fit and work as they should. Yet wheels come in only two sizes really and of those only one is acceptable for whatever reason.

It used to be that the 650 wheels caused gearing issues (not so at this point with 11T cogs available for the rear) and then there was the issue of tire size (not an issue for road use at this point....I wish there was a 650 cross tire). so the main reason most folks don't want 650's seems to be that the bikes "look funny" or look small.

From my perspective a small bike with 650's looks right and proportional. They look funny to me when you have a pair of huge wheels stuffed in there.

I ride a large frame and there are times when I think that a bigger diameter wheel would be just right for a 63 cm frame.

1.5 cents

Dave

[cpg]

Hi Curt,

I appreciate your responses. In my original post I was not questioning the geometry of the bike. When my builder gave me the specs, my little brain honed in on the 5cm stem, remembering that such a short stem is usually not good for handling. Then I remembered reading opinions here that a bike designed for a certain length stem handles best with that size stem. So I thought to myself, "if my bike is designed for a 5cm stem, then putting a 5cm stem on it would not be strange, right?" Then I thought, "I'll just run that assumption by the smart folks on the Serotta list, because they seem to know a lot about that kind of stuff." Anyway, my builder says it will handle fine, and I believe him.

For the record, I have long legs and a very short upper body, with back injuries to boot. I did not ask my builder for 700c wheels, I wanted to see what he would come up with. This is the same builder that urged my friend to go to 650 wheels, so I know he'll make either kind of bike. I'm very sensitive to road noise through the front end (it causes me pain), and that's why he spec'ed a carbon fork, and possibly why he spec'ed the 700c wheels.

I respect your expertise and I do have a question for you. How will the 70 trail affect the handling of the bike? I've heard two comments about it, "slow" and "stable". What I'm curious about is, will it affect how I pick my line on a descent, or how I am able to stay on a line I've picked? I feel like I steer mostly through leaning. Of the two stock bikes I've been riding this year, I feel like the one with the higher bottom bracket is harder to lean (though it did get easier when I lowered the handlebars 2-3 inches after months of physical therapy). I would say that I prefer the bike with the lower bottom bracket. Is the feel of a longer trail going to be kind of like the feeling of the higher bottom bracket?

Thanks, Jenn


That much trail will cause a great deal of wheel flop. Especially at slow speeds. At slow speeds you will be able to turn the bars from side to side and the front wheel will turn but your direction won't change much. It will feel like the front wheel won't be in contact with the road. With that much trail descending will feel odd too. You will essentially have too much stability especially at higher speeds. The bike will not feel very manuverable. Some like that sensation but most feel it as disconcerting. Don't believe the hype about carbon forks taking out the road buzz. That's non-sense. What does dampen road buzz is your position on the bike, where you are in relation to the two wheels and the volume of air in your tires. You will be better suited with a custom fork.

Curt

[wanderingwheel]

I'm by no means an expert like the others here, but I will try to relate my experiences with high-trail bikes. I have ridden and raced many miles on a stock 55cm Colnago, which has a head angle under 72 and a fork rake of 43mm, giving a trail of around 6.7cm (if I did the math right). The handling of the bike is very deliberate and stable. I have actually grown to appreciate the handling at the end of a race. When I can't see straight, it's nice to know the bike isn't trying to dump me. Slow speed handling is a little cumbersome, but it's fine at speed. Descending takes just a little more effort than I would like, but I've had other riders say that they were running off the road trying to stay with me on technical descents. Keep in mind that I'm a small, light guy who can always be found off the back on long, straight descents. The one change I need to make while descending, compared to other bikes, is to shift my weight very far forward (chin on the bars).

At the other end of the spectrum was a Trek Y-Foil that I rode and raced with an aftermarket fork, but without the (required) Serotta Heads-Up spacer. The original fork was about an inch longer than the (any) aftermarket fork, dropping the front end of the bike and raising the head tube angle to around 76deg. As best I remember, the trail was on the order of 3.5cm. The bike was very rideable but required constant attention. Just thinking about turning was enough to make the bike do a full U-turn. At slow speeds and while climbing it was great, but it could occasionaly become nervous at higher speeds.

[Climb01742]

curt,
i know it's a delicate thing for one builder to comment on another builder's design but i'd like to say "thanks" for chiming in. i have no clue about the design issues being discussed, but for me, the most fundamental purpose of this forum is to help each other, to share our knowledge and experiences. your posts are, i think, helping thejen12. thanks for being willing to maybe step on a toe or two to help someone.
climb

[dirtdigger88]

VISUAL AID

http://threedee.3dup.net/images/harley_chopper_320_x_240.jpg

Jason

[thejen12]

Also, here's a link to my question on short reach handlebars. I found out that Pocos aren't the only ones available.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.phpt=15618&highlight=short+reach+handlebars

I have the Modolo Venus and love them, they come small enough for me, 34 cm and I can now reach my brake levers.

Good luck,

Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Thanks for the tip on the Modolo Venus bars. Technically, the Salsa Poco has a shorter reach, but I have trouble positioning the brake levers comfortably on the Salsa bars. Maybe I'll check out the Venus. I also ride a very narrow bar, 36 cm.

Jenn

[thejen12]

I asked my builder to also design the bike around 650c wheels, to see the differences. He did, but he didn't like the way it came out. The improvement in wheel size was negated by the change in fork rake, and it came out about the same. He said it still came out with a 5cm stem, but he didn't think the handling would be as good.

One thing I haven't mentioned is that I have big feet. This causes me a lot of toe-overlap problems that I want to design out of this new bike. I know that if you don't have this problem, you won't understand. But on the stock bike I'm riding now, if I come to a steep hill and need to traverse, I can't do it safely. I also have to run a 20 mm front tire and 165 cranks. I'm looking forward to having a bike with something like a Michelin Race 25 on the front, and 167.5 cranks, which are my favorite length. :)

I didn't exactly ask for a carbon fork, he suggested it. I rode my friend's bike that he made her with a custom steel fork, and I did not like the amount of road buzz at all. I talked to him about it and he said it was mostly due to the fork, and he would spec me a carbon fork. I have a stock bike on which I swapped a carbon fork for the steel fork it came with, and I thought it was a big improvement. I know a lot of people like steel forks, but most of those people are bigger than me. On a small bike like mine, everything is stiffer, I don't think there is as much room to dissipate the buzz. I also asked the builder about carbon stems, carbon handlebars, carbon seatposts, carbon chainstays, etc. He poo-pooed them all, except carbon seat stays (spindly ones, not wishbone), which I'm getting on the bike. He also said a carbon seat tube *might* improve comfort a little, but not enough to make it worth the price. He did say that carbon handlebars can be more comfortable, but it's because of the design - like flat tops - not because of the carbon.

And, Kathi, I asked him for a handlebar recommendation and he came up with the Modolo Venus, right away! Thanks for your tip, or I wouldn't have thought to even ask. :)

Jenn

[big shanty]

It sounds like you are primed to hate this bike. If it turns out to be less than perfect, you will be pissed off. Shop around for other builders, talk to everyone whose bikes appeal to you. You should have full confidence in your builder, and be 100% confident that he/she knows what he/she is doing...in terms of good (or even competent) design, and providing you with what to you wanted. In reading your posts, it seems that this is not the case with your current framebuilder acquaintance. Screw it, bail out and shop around. You are not bound by law or even manners to shell out a bunch of money for something that makes you uneasy. If you work with Curt, or Dave Kirk, or any other builders who have weighed in on your problem, you can rest assured that your bike will be well-designed and will not look crazy. Plus they are very nice people, and dealing with people like these (read: rock-solid, not pushy, talented artists, experienced cyclists) is one of the major pleasures of having a custom bicycle made. Please reconsider and shop around.

[big shanty]

I should add that if cost is an issue, any of the aforementioned builders would probably be more than happy to refer you to somebody making quality custom bikes in a different price range.

[MysteryGuest]

HELLO------ WAKE UP CALL!!!!!

you have two of the better builders in the biz sayin this bike will be crap

the other builders here are THINKING the same thing they just are not going to say it

if you are not going to listen to reason at least let us know who this builder is

at least so i NEVER go to them

you asked for advice but you really dont seem like you want to hear it

if you want an POS (expensive POS) go ahead but if you want a bike to enjoy

RUN AWAY FROM THAT BEAST BEFORE ITS BORN!!!!!

[cpg]

HELLO------ WAKE UP CALL!!!!!

you have two of the better builders in the biz sayin this bike will be crap

the other builders here are THINKING the same thing they just are not going to say it

if you are not going to listen to reason at least let us know who this builder is

at least so i NEVER go to them

you asked for advice but you really dont seem like you want to hear it

if you want an POS (expensive POS) go ahead but if you want a bike to enjoy

RUN AWAY FROM THAT BEAST BEFORE ITS BORN!!!!!


Whoa big fella! Neither Dave nor I said anything like that. I think you're being a little harsh.

Jen,
Did you find a source for a 5cm stem yet?

Curt

[MysteryGuest]

ok fair enough- for the record neither Curt nor Dave said it would ride like crap

but I think it would ride like crap

[Big Dan]

The whole "road buzz" phenomenon baffles my nads..........

:eek:

[dirtdigger88]

The whole "road buzz" phenomenon baffles my nads..........

:eek:

maybe that whole nad thing is the real reason behind road buzz

Jason

[thejen12]

Jen,
Did you find a source for a 5cm stem yet?

Curt

Curt,

Someone on this list pointed me to TTT, which has one. I really wasn't looking too hard because my builder says he has no problem getting them. If you know of any that are silver instead of black I'd be really interested, though! (Haven't asked my builder for that level of detail yet.)

Thanks, Jenn

[stevep]

It sounds like you are primed to hate this bike. If it turns out to be less than perfect, you will be pissed off. Shop around for other builders, talk to everyone whose bikes appeal to you. You should have full confidence in your builder, and be 100% confident that he/she knows what he/she is doing...in terms of good (or even competent) design, and providing you with what to you wanted. In reading your posts, it seems that this is not the case with your current framebuilder acquaintance. Screw it, bail out and shop around. You are not bound by law or even manners to shell out a bunch of money for something that makes you uneasy. If you work with Curt, or Dave Kirk, or any other builders who have weighed in on your problem, you can rest assured that your bike will be well-designed and will not look crazy. Plus they are very nice people, and dealing with people like these (read: rock-solid, not pushy, talented artists, experienced cyclists) is one of the major pleasures of having a custom bicycle made. Please reconsider and shop around.

calm down boy. remember that this builder has seen and worked with the person. relax. the rest of us are just looking at numbers. she should perhaps visit another builder to get another thought on solution... or allow that she is confident in the ability of builder #1. pretty simple... no reason to overthink this thing. hope the bike comes out great and you love to ride the thing.

[big shanty]

If the frame has been built, then you need to make it work. You own it at this point, even if you haven't paid a penny yet. All I'm saying is if these issues are coming up while the frame is a drawing, and there's a possibility that you're going to shed a silent tear every time you look at your stubby stem.....then you should consider compsensating the guy for his time, and explore the alternatives. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying bag on a near-finished product....that's bunk.

[thejen12]

It sounds like you are primed to hate this bike. If it turns out to be less than perfect, you will be pissed off. Shop around for other builders, talk to everyone whose bikes appeal to you. You should have full confidence in your builder, and be 100% confident that he/she knows what he/she is doing...in terms of good (or even competent) design, and providing you with what to you wanted. In reading your posts, it seems that this is not the case with your current framebuilder acquaintance. Screw it, bail out and shop around.

Hmm. I'm not going to go into what my original question was yet again, because I don't seem to be able to communicate it well. I never said I didn't trust my builder, and I never questioned the geometry of his design - though after feedback from this board I did ask him to try designing it with 650 wheels just to see how it would turn out (but that was mostly just for my own curiosity).

I'm actually pretty excited about this bike! The more I am able to adjust my stock bike towards what my builder is recommending, the better it feels, though we're really just talking about reach at this point. I can see how moving the saddle back would make it feel even better. I'm looking forward to getting rid of a dangerous level of toe overlap (atmo), and onto some comfy tires and longer cranks. The trail doesn't scare me. I know I'm hard to fit on a bike and that's the main reason I went to this builder. There are other builders nearer to me, but this one has a reputation for making people comfortable on a bike.

I appreciate everyone's comments. I know the folks on this board give heart-felt feedback intended to help out. Lots of people wouldn't take the time to do that. A lot of knowledge has been dished out in this thread, and I'm sure it's helped more people besides myself. At the same time, I realize that the advice is general, because none of the posters has examined or fitted me for a bike. That's fine, I enjoy learning the theories behind bike geometry, etc.

Sure, I wish I fit on a stock bike, but the truth is, I don't even come close. I knew that ahead of time, and I've been struggling with it for years. It's not just due to my body's proportions, but also the injuries I sustained 20 years ago. I guess the older I get, the less my body has become willing to put up with a crappy fit just because it works for everybody else. Maybe what works for me is crappy for everybody else - LOL! :D (I even tried going to a recumbant, but I hated it.)

Anyway, I'm not worried about my new bike.

Jenn

[J.Greene]

(atmo)-
Jenn


ding ding ding

Jen used atmo for the first time. we can cut her some slack now.

seriously, Jenn I hope you enjoy the new bike.

JG

[thejen12]

All I'm saying is if these issues are coming up while the frame is a drawing, and there's a possibility that you're going to shed a silent tear every time you look at your stubby stem.....then you should consider compsensating the guy for his time, and explore the alternatives. That's all I'm saying.

Oh yeah, I understand what you're saying - I've been riding a 6cm stem all year on my stock bikes. At first my heart did sink when I saw it. I begged my physical therapist - "maybe in 6 months or so I'll be able to move to a longer stem, right?" The answer came hard and fast, "No, you'll never be able to accomodate a longer reach". I actually have two physical therapists and they both said the same thing. Oh well, it allows me to ride, so I even like it, ha ha. :p A 5 can't be much worse.

Jenn

[rpm]

Jenn--

One thing you didn't mention in your discussion of reach was what brake/shifters you are planning to use. Shimano 10 spd brifters are significantly longer than Shimano 9 spd or Campagnolo and I think SRAM. If you need a 5 cm stem with Shimano 10, you could easily use a 6 cm stem with Shimano 9. Then there are the issues of how much you tilt the bars and where you place the levers. I'm presuming you won't be using the drops too much, so you can shorten your reach by mounting the levers on the high side and shimming the levers so that you can still reach them from the drops.

It's a gestalt thing (another favorite forum expression).

Ron

[thejen12]

Jenn--

One thing you didn't mention in your discussion of reach was what brake/shifters you are planning to use. Shimano 10 spd brifters are significantly longer than Shimano 9 spd or Campagnolo and I think SRAM. If you need a 5 cm stem with Shimano 10, you could easily use a 6 cm stem with Shimano 9. Then there are the issues of how much you tilt the bars and where you place the levers. I'm presuming you won't be using the drops too much, so you can shorten your reach by mounting the levers on the high side and shimming the levers so that you can still reach them from the drops.

It's a gestalt thing (another favorite forum expression).

Ron

I haven't exactly decided yet. The bike will be Shimano 9-speed, and the builder knows that - I'm moving components over from another bike. I haven't been able to use STI on my stock bikes because I have problems throwing the levers (can't use my hands that way when my arm is outstretched). But I think I might be able to use STI with my new configuration/shorter reach. If not, it will be bar-end shifters and I'll have a choice of brake levers - any recommendations are appreciated. I have old Shimano RX100 brake levers on my current bike and the lever seems way out there - but I'm also using Salsa Poco bars and it's hard to get the levers positioned well on them.

Thanks,

Jenn

[Smiley]

Jenn , I will be posting photo's of SRAM Rival brifters mounted on POCO bars as compared to 9 speed Shimano and 10 Speed Shimano as well 10 speed Campy Brifters , I am fitting my wife for a CDA and I have purchased the Rival gropppo to set up the size cycle for all possibilites of reach. I think you'll be surprised by how they feel and work as well they will mount higher on the bend then any other brifter. I will show it on on photo's as I just got this stuff last week and have been busy to get them mounted .

[thejen12]

Jenn , I will be posting photo's of SRAM Rival brifters mounted on POCO bars as compared to 9 speed Shimano and 10 Speed Shimano as well 10 speed Campy Brifters , I am fitting my wife for a CDA and I have purchased the Rival gropppo to set up the size cycle for all possibilites of reach. I think you'll be surprised by how they feel and work as well they will mount higher on the bend then any other brifter. I will show it on on photo's as I just got this stuff last week and have been busy to get them mounted .

But doesn't SRAM only work with doubles? I live in triple land, and I don't even want to THINK about compact cranks! In fact, I already bought brand new Shimano Ultegra triple cranks - 167.5 length (older 9-speed model, FC-6500, I think).

Thanks,

Jenn