Should I buy a Trek (ethical reasons)

[echappist]

So here's the deal. My current race bike is about 5 years, and its components are falling apart. Left shifter is near the end of its service life, front derailleur doesn't really work that well (the braze-on is flexy), and the pinch bolt on the front brake broke from erosion. All could be fixed, but it feels more like that any more I spent on it is less I can spend on a Di2 bike. It still has a bit of life left, but I'm beginning to think that I should get a new bike and go Di2.

I've never liked Trek since I begin to bike seriously. Their sleight of hand on Lemond was rather underhanded, and I don't like how obsequious it was to LA. Personally, I thought i'd never buy a Trek, but never say never right?

The thing is, there's just not a lot of company making decent aero road bikes these days, and most of them either don't test well or are disc-only, not to mention that many are prohibitively expensive. The Aeroad would be an option, but they aren't bringing in the rim brake option anytime soon (not to mention that the bike is less aero than it looks), and the Foil is also not as aero as one'd like. This pretty much leaves just the Madone. $4000 for a full bike (and $5000 by the time I get all the parts I want).

But there's that thought lingering that I shouldn't bring my business to people who aided and abetted. THoughts?

[FlashUNC]

Lots of other aero bikes out there.

Depends on which you care more about I guess, a company that aided and abetted a psychopath, or rim brakes.

[benb]

Is the Madone actually a good fit for you?

I don't really worry too much about Bike company ethics I guess, I think they all probably supported some pro/DS that did some unethical things at one point or another.

I have a Domane, and I wouldn't trade it for a Madone. I'd much rather have an Emonda if I had to switch.

If I had to get an aero bike it just wouldn't be the madone with it's goofy head tube/stem/aerobar setup. Just seems like more trouble than it's worth.

[Gummee]

Lots of other aero bikes out there.

Depends on which you care more about I guess, helping out your LBS, or not.fixt

The are indeed lots of other bikes out there, but to put a counterpoint on things, Trek is one of very few supporting equal pay for women in racing

Me? I think they're fantastic bikes. Especially the ones with the Isospeed doo-jobbie. If I wasn't all in on FN Bicycles stuff, I'd buy another 2-3

M

[FlashUNC]

fixt

Lots of bike companies out there that sell through your LBS that aren't Trek.



fixt yo fixt

[Big Dan]

Hate it when people change the quote.

[Mark McM]

Yes, there are lost of aero bikes out there, if you don't care to buy a trek.

From your post, it appears that you are looking for a rim brake aero bike that has done well in testing (I assume that you are looking at independent testing, not in-house testing). Might I point out that in anticipation of the a new disc brake version replacement, the current rim brake Cervelo S5 can now be found on discount. This bike has consistently tested well against its aerobike competitors, and does this without needing proprietary components (can use standard brakes, handlebars, stems, etc.), plus it is compatible with mechanical, electrical and hydraulic shifting systems.

[Gummee]

Love it when people change the quote.
fixt again

:banana:

M

[Gummee]

fixt yo fixt

I'd go Giant, then Cervelo (they don't fit me as well as the Giant, but YMMV), then ??

I don't pay too much attention to aero bikes. Yeah, they help, but you still need to pedal the #$% bike fast to go fast. Speed ain't free!

M

edited to add: my 2nd FN has a Cervelo-esque shape to it and you can feel a slight difference at the top end. Otherwise, feels like a bike

[Alaska Mike]

I have 3 Madones- a 5.2 Pro, a 6.9, and a 6.9 SSL (Nate Brown's old bike).

The 6.9s are my race bikes, and the 5.2 Pro was my everyday ride until I started feeling guilty for abusing the hell out of it. Titanium bikes serve that purpose these days, to the point that I haven't ridden a plastic bike in months. The last couple crits I lined up for were on ti.

When it comes to Treks, the more internal routing or other fancy aero stuff they have, the less I like them. Makes them a pain to work on, and I can shave a lot more drag off of my barn-door gut than I can by having a trap door for the front brake.

For me, 99% of it comes down to fit. Trek's last generation of integrated stem/bars that came with upper-level Madones was too deep for my flexibility, core strength, and body type. I'm faster on a bike that actually fits, and the components required for those bikes just didn't work for me.

For most of us, aero just means a larger chunk of our disposable income.

[benadrian]

I have a friend in Wisconsin who lives near Trek HQ. He was asking me about my Emonda because he wants a road bike. I was telling him that I used to feel kind of "bleh"about Trek. I just didn't find them cool or exciting. Then I ended up renting one while riding in Europe and I loved it. I searched out a deal on a used one just like the one I rented after I got home.

Here was his reply:
"I used to think the same about Trek, but they’ve released some sweet bikes in the last couple of years. The head coach of my oldest kid’s mountain bike team is a VP at Trek and is super cool as are a few of the other coaches that are from Trek, all weirdos like us. I really dig what trek is doing with their Trek Women social media features. Super progressive company. That’s what made me take another look at what they have for bikes. It’s crazy at the team practices, I’m the only non Trek bike owner. There are like 60 kids on the team and all but 4 have Treks."

I think any large corporation will have a few "business first, people second" moments in their history. I've heard some gross stories about Specialized, Canyon, Cannondale, etc. If we "dig for good", we can probably find just as many results.

Ride what is both comfortable for your body and comfortable for your conscience.

[R3awak3n]

there are so many good options.


caynon is another one....

Personally though, I do like what trek has been doing when it comes to bikes.

[makoti]

I stopped reading when I got to the part about not being happy with their dealings with LeMond.
Don't buy from a company you don't like. It'll always be in your head. Too many good options to give your money to a company you don't think is ethical.

[biker72]

Buy the Trek. All brands have some kind of negative news at one time or another.

There are a lot of Madones out there. There may be a good reason...:)

[mingc]

I had vowed never to buy a Trek until they apologize to Greg. But then last winter the local dealer had a 2016 720 for 40% off . . .

[spacemen3]

The testing differences between the brands are imperceptible to the human senses. Find the aero bike with rim brakes that looks the coolest to you and get that one. :beer:

[sfo1]

+1:beer:



I had vowed never to buy a Trek until they apologize to Greg. But then last winter the local dealer had a 2016 720 for 40% off . . .

[JStonebarger]

Every year I race the Trek CXC I wish I was in the market for a new bike. Trek is very good for US cyclocross, and I appreciate that.

Come to their FREE World Cup Race in Waterloo next week -- the first ever to offer equal prize money to women -- and see what I mean.

https://www.cxmagazine.com/2018-world-cup-waterloo-cyclocross-course-preview-trek

[jamesdak]

NO!!!:no::no::no:

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166811291.jpg

[AngryScientist]

see if you can get an extended test ride before you buy.

i travel quite frequently, and rent bikes often. had a new madone last time i was in napa area. i was quite unimpressed with the ride compared to other high end modern carbon.

that may come down to a fit and feel thing, but i for one, would not buy a madone, based on my personal experience, which is completely independent of the brand name. i have nothing against trek, i just didnt care for the bike itself.

[eippo1]

there are so many good options.


caynon is another one....

Personally though, I do like what trek has been doing when it comes to bikes.

Another one is BMC. Their Timemachine Road rides much nicer than many others in the category.

[unterhausen]

I say that if it's the bike you want, then buy it.

my lbs was a trek dealer until Trek decided that a shop that regularly shows up in the lists of top bike shops in the country should go all-Trek concept store and throw all their customer interest away. The closest trek dealer also sells lawnmowers, if that gives you any idea how stupid that train of thought was. I doubt Trek will sell anything better than a low-end hybrid anywhere near State College this year.

Before that bout of silliness, I considered purchasing a Trek. Just didn't work out, but I wouldn't have hesitated.

[echappist]

I say that if it's the bike you want, then buy it.

my lbs was a trek dealer until Trek decided that a shop that regularly shows up in the lists of top bike shops in the country should go all-Trek concept store and throw all their customer interest away. The closest trek dealer also sells lawnmowers, if that gives you any idea how stupid that train of thought was. I doubt Trek will sell anything better than a low-end hybrid anywhere near State College this year.

Before that bout of silliness, I considered purchasing a Trek. Just didn't work out, but I wouldn't have hesitated.

there's also that. i thought that occured only when the store in question is in some sort of financial insolvency, but i could be wrong

certainly odd to have a few Trek showrooms so close by (I live in the Philly burbs right now, and the two are 5 miles apart...)

[soupless]

FWIW they treat their people well. I think one could make an argument that it’s an ethical plus to buy a Trek.

[vqdriver]

I stopped reading when I got to the part about not being happy with their dealings with LeMond.
Don't buy from a company you don't like. It'll always be in your head. Too many good options to give your money to a company you don't think is ethical.

i would always come back to this.

[JStonebarger]

i would always come back to this.

If ancient history with Greg Lemond is really what matters to you, sure.

FWIW they treat their people well. I think one could make an argument that it’s an ethical plus to buy a Trek.

Trek is very good for US cyclocross, and I appreciate that.

Come to their FREE World Cup Race in Waterloo next week -- the first ever to offer equal prize money to women -- and see what I mean.

[FlashUNC]

If ancient history with Greg Lemond is really what matters to you, sure.

The people who made that decision in the long, long ago are stil there and calling the shots.

“For years, Trek has tried our best to make this relationship work. And for years, Greg LeMond has done and said things that have damaged the LeMond brand and the Trek brand as a whole,” said Burke.

Read: He wouldn't stop talking about Lance's obvious doping.

“His actions are inconsistent with our values—values we believe in and live everyday.

Read: We just wanted to make a buck. Why's he gotta keep upsetting the apple cart.


And after years of trying to make it work, we are done. It’s time to sever this relationship and allow Trek to do what it does best—build the world’s greatest bicycles and
provide our customers with a great product and exceptional customer service.”

Read: After years of us starving the LeMond brand because Greg wouldn't shut up, he finally had the gall to sue and we're taking our ball and going home.


What they do for cross is fine.

[KarlC]

Another one is BMC. Their Timemachine Road rides much nicer than many others in the category.

+1 on that

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4509/37857674622_62e4059bf8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZFmtHY)

.

[Seramount]

if you have a conscience about a company's actions, act on it.

I haven't bought a single gallon of gasoline from Exxon since the Valdez incident.

[Jaybee]

if you have a conscience about a company's actions, act on it.

I haven't bought a single gallon of gasoline from Exxon since the Valdez incident.

As someone who cleans up after oil companies for a living, I gotta say that you probably shouldn't buy gas from anyone then.

[CunegoFan]

The people who made that decision in the long, long ago are stil there and calling the shots.

“

Read: He wouldn't stop talking about Lance's obvious doping.


Read: We just wanted to make a buck. Why's he gotta keep upsetting the apple cart.


Read: After years of us starving the LeMond brand because Greg wouldn't shut up, he finally had the gall to sue and we're taking our ball and going home.


What they do for cross is fine.

LOL.

LeMond torpedoed his own brand because he was upset at not longer getting the attention he used to. So he made up a B.S. story about how he figured out a TdF winner must be doping--as if he was not aware that the whole sport is drenched in drugs.
It is a lie he continues to tell to this day. Sure, Greg. You used your knowledge of cycling and physiology to determine Lance was doping instead of telling the public, "Doping is normal in European pro cycling. When I was racing pretty much everyone--except me, of course--doped and it is unthinkable that anything has changed with the current winners."

[rnhood]

LOL.

LeMond torpedoed his own brand because he was upset at not longer getting the attention he used to. So he made up a B.S. story about how he figured out a TdF winner must be doping--as if he was not aware that the whole sport is drenched in drugs.
It is a lie he continues to tell to this day. Sure, Greg. You used your knowledge of cycling and physiology to determine Lance was doping instead of telling the public, "Doping is normal in European pro cycling. When I was racing pretty much everyone--except me, of course--doped and it is unthinkable that anything has changed with the current winners."

Have to agree. Trek made the right decision.

[Tony]

My wife has done the Trek dirt series mountain bike camps for a couple years. She's had a wonderful experience with those camps. Trek does a great job.

[Peter P.]

I stopped reading when I got to the part about not being happy with their dealings with LeMond.
Don't buy from a company you don't like. It'll always be in your head. Too many good options to give your money to a company you don't think is ethical.

I agree 100%.

I recommend you ignore "aero" frames if you can. The performance benefits are much more minuscule than you are led to believe.

If not, then just buy anything else but Trek and stick to your principles.

[FlashUNC]

LOL.

LeMond torpedoed his own brand because he was upset at not longer getting the attention he used to. So he made up a B.S. story about how he figured out a TdF winner must be doping--as if he was not aware that the whole sport is drenched in drugs.
It is a lie he continues to tell to this day. Sure, Greg. You used your knowledge of cycling and physiology to determine Lance was doping instead of telling the public, "Doping is normal in European pro cycling. When I was racing pretty much everyone--except me, of course--doped and it is unthinkable that anything has changed with the current winners."

Hi Lance! Nice of you to stop by again.

Of course, if you're John Burke that's fine too.

[54ny77]

There are workers there doing their jobs and supporting themselves and their families. Who gives a crap if a few people at the top are dooshbaguettes.

Buy American.

[jamesdak]

hi lance! Nice of you to stop by again.

Of course, if you're john burke that's fine too.

lol!!

[Wayne77]

Just like people selectively pick charities that resonate with them, I think we all make conscious concessions when deciding which products to consume/buy. Is it even possible to be a consumer only of product from companies that are ethically sound across the board? Unless you’re living by the sweat of your brow, grow your own food, and live completely off the grid, the answer is no. Life is full of concessions. Maybe a better stance is to look at a company you avoid as a personal decision based solely on where you choose to selectively apply your ethical bandwidth. Others chose differently, and that’s totally fine.

I’ve never ridden the latest Madone but I’d have no problem trying one out. I used to have a Ridley Noah...it was pretty darn aero in its day and I loved it. Might be worth checking out current Ridley options. I also like the Wilier Cento10 Air. That’s a pretty aero frame. I’m currently on a Cento1 Air that I custom painted myself and LOVE it. Of the newer crop of drop seatstay aero frames I think the Scott Foil is least weird looking. Too bad Basso and Merida aren’t available stateside...

[soupless]

@echappist
What about the Orbea Orca Aero?
Available with caliper brakes AND Orbea is part of the worker-owned Basque Mondragon collective.

[rustychisel]

There are workers there doing their jobs and supporting themselves and their families. Who gives a crap if a few people at the top are dooshbaguettes.

Buy American.

Stop. Read the bolded quote again. Ask 'what could be the thinking which underlies this proposition?'


As to the original question, I couldn't give a rat's arse. Sorry if this seems an attempt to derail the thread.

[KonaSS]

I am in the buy the bike if that is the bike you want camp. While not popular here, Trek, Spec, Giant, etc. make some fantastic bikes.

So many companies out there (in the larger world) have shadier backgrounds than this. I also believe that if it wasn't the LA thing, Greg may have torpedoed his brand in some other way. He may be a great rider, but doesn't have the best track record of being easy to do business with.

[Luwabra]

My wife has done the Trek dirt series mountain bike camps for a couple years. She's had a wonderful experience with those camps. Trek does a great job.

My buddies wife does the same. Trek apparently dumps a ton of funds and personnel into youth camps and supporting trail building etc. he said he was extremely impressed w them. I’m not a “big box store” bike fan but I can appreciate and support this. Other side of the lance/lemond coin

[kramnnim]

The rear brake looks annoying, but what about a Felt AR?

[oldpotatoe]

Hate it when people love the quote.

FIFYA:eek:

[dustyrider]

I really enjoy my emonda. I’d like to own a domane and I might get one in the next few days. I’m not aware of any ethical issues that my desire and enjoyment poses.

Nothing in this thread has convinced me that my trek purchases over the years are bad ones. The guy that owns the trek shop here is awesome and so are his employees!

[choke]

Only you can decide if their past history is enough to make a difference.

For me, I'll never own a Trek. I even go further and include anything made by Oakley, Giro and Nike.

[Burnette]

So here's the deal. My current race bike is about 5 years, and its components are falling apart. Left shifter is near the end of its service life, front derailleur doesn't really work that well (the braze-on is flexy), and the pinch bolt on the front brake broke from erosion. All could be fixed, but it feels more like that any more I spent on it is less I can spend on a Di2 bike. It still has a bit of life left, but I'm beginning to think that I should get a new bike and go Di2.

I've never liked Trek since I begin to bike seriously. Their sleight of hand on Lemond was rather underhanded, and I don't like how obsequious it was to LA. Personally, I thought i'd never buy a Trek, but never say never right?

The thing is, there's just not a lot of company making decent aero road bikes these days, and most of them either don't test well or are disc-only, not to mention that many are prohibitively expensive. The Aeroad would be an option, but they aren't bringing in the rim brake option anytime soon (not to mention that the bike is less aero than it looks), and the Foil is also not as aero as one'd like. This pretty much leaves just the Madone. $4000 for a full bike (and $5000 by the time I get all the parts I want).

But there's that thought lingering that I shouldn't bring my business to people who aided and abetted. THoughts?

Look at it as a plate of food. If you start taking things off for intellectual reason and take it too it's extreme your plate will be empty. And it harms no one but yourself, you starve yourself and it in no way hurts the cook. People can live their life that way but I wouldn't recommend it. Intolerance limits the life and experiences of the intolerant. And when it's over something so distant it makes even less sense.

IMO they were all asses in their own special way at different times doing different things, for they are human and we all do crap that's unbecoming.

I respect the sentiment but it's a grudge that isn't even yours and really, those who were effect, if mature, have let it go and lived their life. If not, then that's their failure, for life is short and to waste it is to not understand that.

All that said the world is in no shortage of bicycles. For five grand the world is your oyster and the options abound. I agree with most here, pick a few brands with nice aero bikes and check fit. If it fits and hits your price bogey, buy it. Even of it's the Trek Madone.

[rodney]

Love my new Trek Domane. Never thought about Greg or Lance when I bought it. Out of the bikes I demoed the domane fit the best and everybody knows fit is the most important thing. Everbody knows doping is epidemic in pro cycling. So everybody has the same advantage. Lance still won. Plus he raised untold millions for cancer. What has greg lemond done outside of cycling besides bitch? Trek did the right thing. I've had many conversation with trek representatives on their chat line while trying to decide what bike to buy. All representatives were very polite, helpful, and informed. My local trek shop treats me super. Buy what fits and what you desire. Pretty sure that trek, my local shop, and lance have equal or better ethics than lemond.

[MattTuck]

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

[doomridesout]

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

The bolded text is the dispositive question you have to answer for yourself.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE]Pretty sure that trek, my local shop, and lance have equal or better ethics than lemond.

?? At the risk of this becoming a 'doping by dikcs', thread.

[OtayBW]

if you have a conscience about a company's actions, act on it.

I haven't bought a single gallon of gasoline from exxon since the valdez incident.
+100.

[echappist]

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

[Burnette]

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

If there was a point of absurdity I think the first post was it, but hey, we all have our thing. Now this one is pushing it faster down a cliff by doubling down on the look for something to worry about.

Hand wringing over spending five grand on a bicycle while agonizing over past transgressions of companies has to be the height of first world problem madness.

It's not hurting any company whether you buy or not and the only effect it's having is a negative one upon yourself. It seems to be tying you up in the weirdest of conundrums. Appreciate what a privileged and also crazy position you seem to be in.

This seems to have near nothing to do with bicycles and all to do with an existential exercise. I guess it's different, we won't all get caught up in frames, wheels and group sets on this one, it will be about the past of companies. And that doesn't sound fun at all. Or something that produces a good outcome. Good luck with that.

[echappist]

[/B]

If there was a point of absurdity I think the first post was it, but hey, we all have our thing. Now this one is pushing it faster down a cliff by doubling down on the look for something to worry about.

Hand wringing over spending five grand on a bicycle while agonizing over past transgressions of companies has to be the height of first world problem madness.

It's not hurting any company whether you buy or not and the only effect it's having is a negative one upon yourself. It seems to be tying you up in the weirdest of conundrums. Appreciate what a privileged and also crazy position you seem to be in.

This seems to have near nothing to do with bicycles and all to do with an existential exercise. I guess it's different, we won't all get caught up in frames, wheels and group sets on this one, it will be about the past of companies. And that doesn't sound fun at all. Or something that produces a good outcome. Good luck with that.

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes:eek::o

[oldpotatoe]

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes:eek::o

Have you SEEN the politics in Delaware!!! OMfargingDOG!!! Just kidding..get the Trek. :)

[Burnette]

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes:eek::o

As you have shown yourself to be a tax dodger and therefore hate America I can no longer buy anything from you in the classifieds.

Just kidding, get your Trek and ride the hell out of it. If you have the resources to enjoy luxuries don't let the squabbles of strangers impede on the fun.

And post up pictures and thoughts of the bike when you get it. New bike day, now that's fun!

[Cloozoe]

Simple: If you have ethical issues with Trek you can either buy one anyway, thus demonstrating to yourself that your ethics are bull$%t, to be discarded as soon as they become even slightly inconvenient, or get something else.

[FlashUNC]

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

Your choices and comfort with a company's past are your own, but you can't write "I buy this in protest of what you did in the past" on what you spend with them. Trek surely doesn't care about the finger wagging and tsk-tsking if you, yanno, still show up at the cash register.

Your only mechanism to make your point known as a consumer is to not spend with those who you find objectionable, whatever those personal criteria may be.

[rain dogs]

Considering all the bicycles in that price range are basically all going to be more or less the same in terms of real-world performance* buy the bike that excites you, seduces you, captivates your imagination or whatever gets you amped.... that each time you look at it you think, this bike is sooooo rad.

The Trek will never be that bike, at least not for you. Everytime you go to get it you'll think.... ugh.... Trek.

ugh... Trek. Don't buy the Trek. Don't buy what you already know you don't want.


(*and anyone telling you otherwise is lying or deluded, cause the pros... who are dialed to the finest 0,000001% of performance don't see a diff - it always has been and always will be the legs. The top five of the Vuelta was Scott, Specialized, Argon18, Bianchi and Canyon... best Trek rider was 16th... it's the legs.)

[Dino Suegiù]

Don't buy from a company you don't like. It'll always be in your head. Too many good options to give your money to a company you don't think is ethical.if you have a conscience about a company's actions, act on it.

I haven't bought a single gallon of gasoline from Exxon since the Valdez incident.Only you can decide if their past history is enough to make a difference.

For me, I'll never own a Trek. I even go further and include anything made by Oakley, Giro and Nike.

I do not really care about Lemond, or Lance, or Trek, either way, but ethics are personal, so I think these replies above are good because they suggest an answer to the question from exactly that pov and nothing more. Ethics are not so simple, and subscribing to and applying even more (outside) "morality" just gets confusing.

Can anyone really answer another person's questions about "personal ethics", whether the question is about swatting a fly or buying diamonds or polluting oceans? Ethics are not only about boycotts.

[Dino Suegiù]

It's not hurting any company whether you buy or not and the only effect it's having is a negative one upon yourself. It seems to be tying you up in the weirdest of conundrums. Appreciate what a privileged and also crazy position you seem to be in.
Are ethics about "hurting any company"?
Why would it be a "negative [effect] upon yourself" if the op follows his or her beliefs?
The conundrum seems elsewhere, if effects on markets are one's definition of ethics.

This seems to have near nothing to do with bicycles and all to do with an existential exercise.
Perhaps ethics are in fact all to do with existential exercise, and the "bicycle acquisition quandary" being posed here is simply a vehicle for the discussion?

[Burnette]

Are ethics about "hurting any company"?
Why would it be a "negative [effect] upon yourself" if the op follows his or her beliefs?
The conundrum seems elsewhere, if effects on markets are one's definition of ethics.


Perhaps ethics are in fact all to do with existential exercise, and the "bicycle acquisition quandary" being posed here is simply a vehicle for the discussion?

You're overthinking it bro, one dude buying a bicycle and that's all it is. Any effects felt are to the buyer, sellers could care less about one sale lost or gained based on archaic arguments.

Geez people, it's bicycles, we shouldn't go out of our way to make spending money this hard.

[Dino Suegiù]

You're overthinking it bro, one dude buying a bicycle and that's all it is. Any effects felt are to the buyer, sellers could care less about one sale lost or gained based on archaic arguments.

Geez people, it's bicycles, we shouldn't go out of our way to make spending money this hard.

How am I "overthinking it", sorry? Bro? No.

Ethics are personal, and so whether one's acquisition (or not, i.e boycott) affects the "offending company" (or not) has really nothing at all to do with the core issue. Arguments related to ethics are certainly not archaic, in any case. Just look around the current world, right?

The op stated that it is an ethical question, for him or her. So, why try to define that person's ethics then? If the op wants to buy a Trek, fine. That is obviously entirely their own choice. How that choice relates to their ethics only they can know. That's all.

[Burnette]

How am I "overthinking it", sorry? Bro? No.

Ethics are personal, and so whether one's acquisition (or not, i.e boycott) affects the "offending company" (or not) has really nothing at all to do with the core issue. Arguments related to ethics are certainly not archaic, in any case. Just look around the current world, right?

The op stated that it is an ethical question, for him or her. So, why try to define that person's ethics then? If the op wants to buy a Trek, fine. That is obviously entirely their own choice. How that choice relates to their ethics only they can know. That's all.

Well, when it's time to go out for dinner we're taking my bus because otherwise we would all starve mulling over all of the baggage of the restaurants if left up to such musings.

[echappist]

As you have shown yourself to be a tax dodger and therefore hate America I can no longer buy anything from you in the classifieds.

Just kidding, get your Trek and ride the hell out of it. If you have the resources to enjoy luxuries don't let the squabbles of strangers impede on the fun.

And post up pictures and thoughts of the bike when you get it. New bike day, now that's fun!
guilty as charged ;)

will post up when i get it; might be a while though. I'm on an one-in/one-out policy, as i have to limit the number of bikes I have.

[Burnette]

guilty as charged ;)

will post up when i get it; might be a while though. I'm on an one-in/one-out policy, as i have to limit the number of bikes I have.

Great! Look forward to it whenever you pull the trigger. I didn't care for the look of the older Treks but that aero Madone is the bomb! I really like it and Trek has so many color options too. Ride reports have been favorable and if I were to go that route my local dealer is an awesome guy and would work with me.

I'm locked into save mode for now though and will live through you for the moment, Ha!

Take care and I'll see what ya do down the road.

[OtayBW]

The thing that I find kind of dumb, or unfortunate, about all this (Trek = 'bad guy' nothwithstanding) is that there are SO many people out there who just go to the local shop and plunk down $XXXX to $XXXXX+ on a Brand T, or S, of G, etc. without knowing or caring about all the other great options out there. Good for the shop, but it seems like a lot of the mainstream bike biz has largely become the 'fast food' option....

[Burnette]

The thing that I find kind of dumb, or unfortunate, about all this (Trek = 'bad guy' nothwithstanding) is that there are SO many people out there who just go to the local shop and plunk down $XXXX to $XXXXX+ on a Brand T, or S, of G, etc. without knowing or caring about all the other great options out there. Good for the shop, but it seems like a lot of the mainstream bike biz has largely become the 'fast food' option....

Online sales will continue to rise and eventually rule and by going that route you see how saturated the bicycle biz is with so many brands and models.

Go to Adrenaline bikes or Wrench Science and look at all the brands there and even they don't carry everything. There's tons more out there beyond that.

IMO though even if you do go SpechTrekonndale you're likely getting a good bike, so it's not like there's a great loss by going that route at all. They make great stuff.

[OtayBW]

Online sales will continue to rise and eventually rule and by going that route you see how saturated the bicycle biz is with so many brands and models.

Go to Adrenaline bikes or Wrench Science and look at all the brands there and even they don't carry everything. There's tons more out there beyond that.

IMO though even if you do go SpechTrekonndale you're likely getting a good bike, so it's not like there's a great loss by going that route at all. They make great stuff.

Whether they make a great bike or not is not my point. Some people love McDonalds, too. Not my cup of tea.

[Burnette]

Whether they make a great bike or not is not my point. Some people love McDonalds, too. Not my cup of tea.

Well, they do indeed make great bikes and it's great we have what I would wager is almost too many choices with many being good ones. It's like there's so many flavors of great tea that you couldn't try them all in a year.

[fogrider]

So here's the deal. My current race bike is about 5 years, and its components are falling apart. Left shifter is near the end of its service life, front derailleur doesn't really work that well (the braze-on is flexy), and the pinch bolt on the front brake broke from erosion. All could be fixed, but it feels more like that any more I spent on it is less I can spend on a Di2 bike. It still has a bit of life left, but I'm beginning to think that I should get a new bike and go Di2.

THoughts?

if you want a new bike, take your time and ride as much as you can. but I have rebuilt bikes and they ride like new! or it's pretty easy to get SRAM etap shifting systems and you're in business.

[93KgBike]

Wait a year, then buy a Cannondale SystemSix

[rodney]

?? At the risk of this becoming a 'doping by dikcs', thread.


No doubt I have higher ethics than you too. Take your drugs elsewhere.

[echappist]

Wait a year, then buy a Cannondale SystemSix

I dont like disc brakes

[PETER REID]

There are so many great bikes out there. Why buy something that everyone else has. Its like buying a Kia or a Hyundai. Wouldn't you be rather riding something that nobody else has?:fight::hello::no::bike::banana:

[gasman]

No doubt I have higher ethics than you too. Take your drugs elsewhere.

I'm unclear what your saying but it seems to be close to the "Don't be a jerk" we have here.
Abusive posts can result in a two week time out so keep it civil.
Thanks

[echappist]

There are so many great bikes out there. Why buy something that everyone else has. Its like buying a Kia or a Hyundai. Wouldn't you be rather riding something that nobody else has?:fight::hello::no::bike::banana:

Aero road bikes require an economy of scale to test and develop. Unless one ponies up the money, bikes from smaller builders just dont get tested. Nor are most independent frame builders concerned with aerodynamics.

Thus leaving the large corporations

[Bruce K]

Rodney

Clearly you need to reread the forum rules

That post was inappropriate and uncalled for
Plus what gasman said

BK

[rodney]

I'm unclear what your saying but it seems to be close to the "Don't be a jerk" we have here.
Abusive posts can result in a two week time out so keep it civil.
Thanks

If you don't understand what I said you probably didn't read this thread or my previous post on the thread and how it was replied to. I keep it civil when people are civil to me. I don't tolerate rudeness to myself by forum members or you.

[rodney]

Rodney

Clearly you need to reread the forum rules

That post was inappropriate and uncalled for
Plus what gasman said

BK


You might want to reread the thread and my posts yourself. Including #80 above.

[TonyG]

I'm in the "No Trek ever camp" myself. Although a lugged Trek was my first nice bike on my return to cycling in 1979; I rather walk than ride a Trek.

[bfd]

I'm in the "No Trek ever camp" myself. Although a lugged Trek was my first nice bike on my return to cycling in 1979; I rather walk than ride a Trek.

This is interesting. You must have been really wronged by Trek to feel this way. I’ve never been a big box bike fan until recently. Last year, I picked up a used 2013 Trek Madone 700 frameset for $1000. The frameset looked brand new and has very little mikes on it. It came with headset, seatpost and direct mount brakes, including the awful rear brake that is mounted under the chain stays. But the frame is really light and after I built it up with Sram etap, it is a nice riding bike that cost me a little over $3k. So I’m looking forward to riding it for many years. But I guess to each their own....Good Luck!

[Bruce K]

Rodney

Gasman and I are both moderators here

We received member complaints

We responded

Check your PM’s

BK

[saab2000]

I'm in the "No Trek ever camp" myself. Although a lugged Trek was my first nice bike on my return to cycling in 1979; I rather walk than ride a Trek.

Why? Just curious.

While some mistakes may have been made along the way, I hardly see Trek as a polarizing entity.

Along with some other big brands, they have been involved in high level racing for a long, long time and this undoubtedly has made a better bike over the years.

Having grown up in Wisconsin, Treks were pretty ubiquitous and this lugged Trek you speak of would have been a common sight in my early years of riding. By most accounts they are a good employer and give back to their community.

[Jef58]

This is an interesting topic. When a company uses an athlete for the face of the company, there will always be backlash when things go south in the public eye. They always seem to go south too... Trek made out very well with all of this and judging by all their bikes I see on the road, they still are doing well. I don't think a loss of a high end bike here or there is affecting their bottom line given that they know at that level there is really good competition. Their bread and butter is FX hybrids and more lower priced units that are hard to beat for value. Most of those buyers could care less about any pro peloton doping anyways...

[sitzmark]

fify

[saab2000]

fify

FIFY posts need to end. The writer probably wrote what he/she intended to write.

[Dirtdiggler]

if ethics , why buy and drive a Japanese or German made cars. Trek is fine.. ride what you like and most of all fit. I would hate to see someone buy a bike and end up in the classified.

[Dino Suegiù]

Even more than Lemond/Lance, I remember thinking it was strange to see cars in the US (I think the cars were Volkswagens?) that also had "Trek" labelled on them. I guess people got a Trek bicycle when they bought the car? That just looked strange, seeing those labels on the cars. It did seem cheap in a way, like a bus stop advert or something. If the actual ethics were also complicated, I have no idea.

[sitzmark]

I can buy into not using FIFY. Lazy way to piggyback a conversation. Statement instead...

Most buyers could care less about the pro peloton anyways.

[Dino Suegiù]

FIFY posts need to end. The writer probably wrote what he/she intended to write.

Yes, please...those seem annoying, even often confusing. What is the point, instead of just writing a new post with ones own opinion written?

[charliedid]

I can buy into not using FIFY. Lazy way to piggyback a conversation. Statement instead...

Most buyers could care less about the pro peloton anyways.

Most don't even know what it is.

[oldpotatoe]

No doubt I have higher ethics than you too. Take your drugs elsewhere.

BUT not higher than lance, I guess..:eek:. What's the address ......never mind...teehee..

[William]

Keep it on the tracks folks.





William

[nooneline]

I'm probably too late into this thread to have an impact but I always liked this story:

A buddy of mine walked into a new bike-industry job riding his Specialized. Everyone else's bike in the bike room was some small-maker, label-with-cachet bike, and so as he walked his Specialized through work, he felt like people were judging him. He told a new coworker about feeling those eyes on him, and the coworker - an engineer - just said, "Tell them this: 'What, you don't like well-designed bikes?' "

Anyway that's one story.

The other bit here is that I think that every since the Lance/Lemond drama of, what, 15 years ago (?), I think Trek has been one of the more admirable and impressive cycling companies. They have a reputation for being great to their employees and to their sponsored riders. They've stepped up to push major races toward equitable prize payouts, they've done an amazing job supporting women's pro cycling teams, and they make cx livestreams available to the American public. Ever since they stepped in to cyclocross, they've really done very good things - AND they've done it on the back of really good bikes. The Madone is the best, cleverest, simplest integrated aerobike platform.

[chiasticon]

personally I've gotten over my stigma against Trek because of all they do for cyclocross. I don't love everything about them. but I'd buy one of their bikes.

[chiasticon]

They've stepped up to push major races toward equitable prize payouts, they've done an amazing job supporting women's pro cycling teamsalso this. first (and only, for now) world cup to offer equal payout for both genders.

[echappist]

if ethics , why buy and drive a Japanese or German made cars. Trek is fine.. ride what you like and most of all fit. I would hate to see someone buy a bike and end up in the classified.

it's a good point. i'd argue that certain brands weren't around (or important enough) in World War II, thus making them bit-part players in war-time commerce. It's an exercise in what-ifs to conjecture what they would have done, and there really shouldn't be too much inquiry there.

One should also make a distinction between those who manufactured weapons of war and those who went beyond that. The former is done by almost any major industrial company (unavoidable in wartime), while the latter group engaged in unethical practices such as the usage of slave labor. Volkswagen and Mitsubishi certainly fall under the latter. I'm not sure if VW has made any restorations, but with their whole diesel scandal, it's unlikely I want to buy one of their cars anyway.

On a tangent is that not all armament manufacturers actually wanted to produce instruments of war. Hugo Junker (who founded the company that built aircrafts bearing his name) was a pacifist, and his company was nationalized in the run-up to WWII.

Then again, while time may not heal, it certainly muddles. Airbus is a conglomerate that includes armament companies from all across Europe, including the GB, FR, and DE. Hard to make any assessment on airbuses based on what its various forerunners committed

personally I've gotten over my stigma against Trek because of all they do for cyclocross. I don't love everything about them. but I'd buy one of their bikes.

it's perspectives like this that I think are especially relevant

Now only if I could "score" a Madone frameset for $2500 (mind you my road bike cost $4000)

[nooneline]

One should also make a distinction between those who manufactured weapons of war and those who went beyond that.

Like IBM, who developed technology for Hitler that enabled the Holocaust.

[Gummee]

and if someone's fixing it, it's what the fixer intends to write using slightly different words

Brevity. It's a thing. .

fixt

M

[cash05458]

Certainly, buy what you think is the best fit for you via the bike...I would hope they might have gotten better via the "lifetime" warranty stuff tho...I bought a tete de la course bike from one of their dealers (this was years and years ago mind you)....a ti/carbon lemond frame they had built...this would have been right after the greg and lance breakup crap...anyhow, thing cracked right around the cable stop weld like an egg...thing was about a year old by then when it went...anyone who looked at it could see that it was a bad weld problem...trek did absolutely everything they could not to honor the warranty...and in fact, they didn't honor...rather, they offered me another frame at a 20 percent discount or something...I passed...swore to myself I would never deal with them again and I haven't...to be fair tho I could see alot of the biggest companies who make gazzilons of frames doing the same thing...

[Wayne77]

Interesting...I had a different experience with product support. I bought a set of Bontrager Aeolus wheels that had what appeared to be small voids near one of the seams in the CF layup. I took the wheels to two authorized Trek dealers. On tech said it wasn’t an issue but the other one recommended sending them to Trek just to be sure they were safe to ride. I was expecting a yes/no answer and possibly having to buy new rims if the answer was no.

...They replaced both rims and also new spokes no questions asked, even though I wasn’t the original owner. I was shocked and delighted at the same time...easily saved my $500-$600.

Not sure if the poster above worked through an official Trek stored (not just authorized seller), but doing so for me helped immensely.

[TonyG]

Why? Just curious.

While some mistakes may have been made along the way, I hardly see Trek as a polarizing entity.


It has 100% to do with the Armstrong/Trek relationship and how they both treated Greg LeMond.

[Wayne77]

I really don’t get why this is causing so much hand-wringing. None of us can legitimately claim that none of the other companies, large and small, that we conciously decide to buy product from haven’t also screwed persons or entities over at some point in the past...or engaged in actions that are as bad or worse as what’s being talked about here.

Precisely because of that lack of information and transparency we all selectively chose the companies, charities, persons, causes to support, and which to stay away from. These are personal decisions and to suggest that there is some universal morally reprehensible reason no one should support Trek is a bit hypocritical.

I respect those that choose not to support Trek...I have to assume there’s some personal thing that strikes a nerve or rubs that person the wrong way. Great. I don’t buy products from companies that bug me either. But that doesnt mean someone who does support Trek is somehow looking the other way or choosing some lower standard in doing so.

**All that said, for those who get worked up about Trek and what happened with Armstrong and Lemond in the past - why not divert that energy to enthusiastically promoting the brands that have a culture and _perceived_ value system that speaks to you? Not saying you don’t...it just seems like a lot of wasted energy spent on events that happened quite some time ago.

[FlashUNC]

I really don’t get why this is causing so much hand-wringing. None of us can legitimately claim that none of the other companies, large and small, that we concioisly decide to buy product from haven’t also screwed persons or entities over at some point in the past...or engaged in actions that are as bad or worse as what’s being talked about here.

Precisely because of that lack of information and transparency we all selectively chose the companies, charities, persons, causes to support, and which to stay away from. These are personal decisions and to suggest that there is some universal morally reprehensible reason no one should support Trek is a bit hypocritical.

I respect those that choose not to support Trek...I have to assume there’s some personal thing that strikes a nerve or rubs that person the wrong way. Great. I don’t buy products from companies that bug me either. But that doesnt mean someone who does support Trek is somehow looking the other way or choosing some lower standard in doing so.

Well, it is if the standard is "I have ethical objections to the company, but their frame has the rim brake mounts, so I think I'll get the frame."

Your ethical objections ring more than just a tad hollow if how they mount brakes takes priority in your calculus. At that point you don't really have ethical objections, you just like saying you do.

[josephr]

Well, it is if the standard is "I have ethical objections to the company, but their frame has the rim brake mounts, so I think I'll get the frame."

Your ethical objections ring more than just a tad hollow if how they mount brakes takes priority in your calculus. At that point you don't really have ethical objections, you just like saying you do.

+1 --- while its great to be able to say 'I vote with my $'...the internet's highest level of ethical consumership is contradicted by everyone who uses an iPhone, eaten a sammich at Chick-Fil-A, wears Nike or New Balance (depending on who's side your on), etc....the list goes on forever. I'm tired, I ride/wear/eat what works for me.

[Wayne77]

Well, it is if the standard is "I have ethical objections to the company, but their frame has the rim brake mounts, so I think I'll get the frame."

Your ethical objections ring more than just a tad hollow if how they mount brakes takes priority in your calculus. At that point you don't really have ethical objections, you just like saying you do.

I think you’re making this far too complex, with all due respects sir. If we are taking this to that level where we are now adding all these intermediate scenarios, there’s no way to have the discussion. Why? Because that ethical inconsistency is not observable behavior (unless you have someone following you around) and happens within the mind. If someone has an outwardly stated value system and for whatever reason decides to make a compromise one day amd not the next, well...that’s a discussion about consistency of character, cognitive dissonance, etc etc. Let’s keep this at a higher level and at least assume for sake of discussion that we will be consistent in our ethical decisions based on the information we have at the time.

It’s a very simple question if we keep it at that level...what an entity does either bugs me or it doesn’t. If today my ‘support or not support’ decision is different from how I would have made the same decision 10 years ago does not necessarily make me an ethically compromised person. It would if all factors remained the same, but they don’t. People change, companies change, philosophies change, the battles I chose to fight change, the causes I am passionate about change...we mature and grow. Again, these are personal decisions and to have some universal standard implies universal transparency and a static, unchanging landscape.

Maybe new information comes out tomorrow about the Trek/Lance/Lemond thing that back in 2006 Armstrong drove by Greg’s house at night and threw eggs at his house and broke the windows of his car, and the CEO of Trek was with him, laughing all the way home...well yeah, I’d probably shift my stance a bit ;-)

[Wayne77]

+1 --- while its great to be able to say 'I vote with my $'...the internet's highest level of ethical consumership is contradicted by everyone who uses an iPhone, eaten a sammich at Chick-Fil-A, wears Nike or New Balance (depending on who's side your on), etc....the list goes on forever. I'm tired, I ride/wear/eat what works for me.

This I agree with...to be honest, I’m not sure if my thoughts agree or disagree with FlashUNC...it seems like we are talking about very different things. But your consisely stated analysis above is definitely in line with my own thoughts - ie, it’s likely that we have all consumed from companies knowingly or unknowingly with varying ethical track records. We don’t know for sure, there is only so much time in the day, life is short, we can’t fight every battle, and thus we manage to get by and still sleep well at night. :-)

[Tabl10s]

So here's the deal. My current race bike is about 5 years, and its components are falling apart. Left shifter is near the end of its service life, front derailleur doesn't really work that well (the braze-on is flexy), and the pinch bolt on the front brake broke from erosion. All could be fixed, but it feels more like that any more I spent on it is less I can spend on a Di2 bike. It still has a bit of life left, but I'm beginning to think that I should get a new bike and go Di2.

I've never liked Trek since I begin to bike seriously. Their sleight of hand on Lemond was rather underhanded, and I don't like how obsequious it was to LA. Personally, I thought i'd never buy a Trek, but never say never right?

The thing is, there's just not a lot of company making decent aero road bikes these days, and most of them either don't test well or are disc-only, not to mention that many are prohibitively expensive. The Aeroad would be an option, but they aren't bringing in the rim brake option anytime soon (not to mention that the bike is less aero than it looks), and the Foil is also not as aero as one'd like. This pretty much leaves just the Madone. $4000 for a full bike (and $5000 by the time I get all the parts I want).

But there's that thought lingering that I shouldn't bring my business to people who aided and abetted. THoughts?

Here's some food for thought: since most bikes are Asian built, do they pay their workers a living wage?

Canadians talk funny and the Spanish are macho.
Both have populations that want to cecede. Italians are snobbish thinking they're the best lovers.

If you look at my signature, I didn't care.

[54ny77]

This thread is a top contender for the 2018 First World Problems Navel Gazing award. :D