CX lessons, re-learned.

[dddd]

Well, the season got off to an early start with the "tune-up" series, which re-kindled some forgotten wisdom.

I got off to a good start in the Open 45+ class, 3rd into the first corner and soon into second when the second-place rider slid out and went down on the slick, hard-packed infield of Folsom Rodeo grounds.

I wasn't breathing too hard half-way through the first lap, but lost my concentration when I had to pass a rider in one of the slower categories that had left the line 30 seconds before us. Why they put a slower group in front of us is a question I have to ask someone, but I became impatient and made my pass through some "chunk" as the mtb crowd might say. I heard the knock of the rear tire bottoming out, but noted no symptoms of air loss.
Unfortunately, I had neglected to change my tires, and had left last season's narrow, more mud-capable tires on out of pure laziness and procrastination (I should have purchased plump tires weeks ago).
I proceded through Heckler Hollow (where the fans pass out the beer) in the artificially-lit "Sherwood Forrest", scrambled my way past another two of the slower-class riders, and took advantage of a line way off to the side, a smooth, clean strip of concrete adjacent to a lengthy fence. With that one move, I suddenly found myself on the leader's wheel, where I was going to be happy to sit. On to the grass field and it's many hairpin corners, I felt like I was in recovery mode. One corner gave me some odd cornering feedback from the tires, then I realized it was the rear tire. One more corner and my race was over, as the tire folded.
Walking back to the pits (to turn in my electromagnetic race number), I realized that I had made yet another big mistake of having failed to condition my shins and calves for the violence of the rough infield, especially the double-barrier crossing. I was suddenly thinking that my early withdrawal from this event might have been a blessing in disguise, as years earlier I lasted just three laps of the season opener event in first place, only to have my calves and shins start complaining loudly.
So there you have it, procrastination and forgotten lessons at their very best.

But yeah, this early series is not where one tries to position themselves in the points race, it's a lower-stress environment that affords some low-stress re-conditioning, both physical and mental.

[jpritchet74]

Oh the joys of cross! I can't wait!

[Gummee]

LBS is having CX training here in Haymarket...

The new-to-me Stages says I'm putting out between 800-1000w coming out of the corners, but I'm still getting passed

WTHeck?!

M

[ptourkin]

The first time I try to practice CX every year, I'm reminded of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt5h-rnsF6I

[redir]

I might hit a cross race this weekend. I've not been on my cross bike for a year so it should be real.

That is odd that they would start any group never mind a slower one in front of you. Here they have one race at a time.

[nobuseri]

LBS is having CX training here in Haymarket...



The new-to-me Stages says I'm putting out between 800-1000w coming out of the corners, but I'm still getting passed



WTHeck?!



M



Ha. Jared and folks running circles. Those guys out in Haymarket are no joke. No matter the terrain. Hang in there. :)

Maybe I will see you at some races this year. First CX year for me. I am usually on the tarmac when I race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Gummee]

Ha. Jared and folks running circles. Those guys out in Haymarket are no joke. No matter the terrain. Hang in there. :)

Maybe I will see you at some races this year. First CX year for me. I am usually on the tarmac when I race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'll be in my orange FN Bicycles kit unless it's wet, then I'll be in my olive green FN Bicycles kit.

Signed up for Hub Labels, Sykelocross, then the 1st two Super Series races

M

[nobuseri]

I'll be in my orange FN Bicycles kit unless it's wet, then I'll be in my olive green FN Bicycles kit.



Signed up for Hub Labels, Sykelocross, then the 1st two Super Series races



M



I should be at Hub Labels this coming Sunday. Then the two Sykelocross ones later this month. Sporting Series pkg, and I will be done for the first year. I may do DCCX, depending.

I will prob be one of the tallest out there. SuperX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[redir]

Sounds like you guys are in my area... The race I was talking about this weekend is in Luray Caverns...

[chiasticon]

That is odd that they would start any group never mind a slower one in front of you. Here they have one race at a time.our local series does masters 35+/45+/55+ together but starting a minute apart, going from youngest to oldest. it makes sense as generally the younger guys are faster. there are some super fast older dudes though and when they catch you (I'm in the 35+ group), it's demoralizing to remember they had a minute or two gap to start with... :help:

there are some downsides to it, of course. for example, if you're not local and know who's who, you sometimes don't know if the guy you're battling with is even in your field. or for some of the 55+ crowd just out there for fun and already starting two minutes down, they get pulled after three laps; kind of a bummer, for the money. anyway, it's not 100% ideal, but for local races where the three fields together are only 50ish riders, it generally works OK.

but yeah, starting a slower group first is no good. OP, talk to your race organizers about that!

[Gummee]

Sounds like you guys are in my area... The race I was talking about this weekend is in Luray Caverns...

I did Luray once. Did a pirouette on my head within the first third of the first lap. That one really rang my bell! ...and haven't been back since

M

[Gummee]

our local series does masters 35+/45+/55+ together but starting a minute apart, going from youngest to oldest. it makes sense as generally the younger guys are faster. there are some super fast older dudes though and when they catch you (I'm in the 35+ group), it's demoralizing to remember they had a minute or two gap to start with... :help:

there are some downsides to it, of course. for example, if you're not local and know who's who, you sometimes don't know if the guy you're battling with is even in your field. or for some of the 55+ crowd just out there for fun and already starting two minutes down, they get pulled after three laps; kind of a bummer, for the money. anyway, it's not 100% ideal, but for local races where the three fields together are only 50ish riders, it generally works OK.

but yeah, starting a slower group first is no good. OP, talk to your race organizers about that!

I start 1min in front of Fred Wittwer. It's my goal to stay ahead of him for the whole race. I usually get passed pretty quickly tho.

Scott Paisely (sp?) is the new national champion and IIRC he's in the same group as Fred. Gotta stay in front of TWO of em now!

M

[Gummee]

I should be at Hub Labels this coming Sunday. Then the two Sykelocross ones later this month. Sporting Series pkg, and I will be done for the first year. I may do DCCX, depending.

I will prob be one of the tallest out there. SuperX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

DCCX is a hoot. Only race w spectators.

Mind you, it isn't *easy* but DCCX is probably my favorite course. Followed closely by Applecross. The Bikenetic race at the Boy Scout camp in Haymarket's a hoot too. Big party atmosphere (typically) There's one more I really like, but forget which one.

What I DON'T like are courses where the organizer tosses in random 180deg turns in the middle of a field. Use your imagination (and see what the Euros are doing!) don't just tape off 'stuff'

M

[nobuseri]

DCCX seems to be popular, as it is geographically located in a good spot, and it's two days. Seems there are a few activities surrounding it. Last year, when the Rapha was still a pop-up, they had a few events around it as well.

I know about the Luray CX one. I couldn't fit it in. I heard it's pretty tough.
Cat 5 doesn't have its own group on that one, so as a beginner, I planned skip this year until I learn some of the ropes. I was sched for CWC, but my kid starts soccer this week; game on Sat, so that trumps Sat cycling activities.

I am hoping to get a good stretch of races in before it's gets too cold.

I will ping you local guys and see if our times/races link up at all. Always willing to learn from other folks. :beer:


DCCX is a hoot. Only race w spectators.

Mind you, it isn't *easy* but DCCX is probably my favorite course. Followed closely by Applecross. The Bikenetic race at the Boy Scout camp in Haymarket's a hoot too. Big party atmosphere (typically) There's one more I really like, but forget which one.

What I DON'T like are courses where the organizer tosses in random 180deg turns in the middle of a field. Use your imagination (and see what the Euros are doing!) don't just tape off 'stuff'

M

[Gummee]

I am hoping to get a good stretch of races in before it's gets too cold.colder is better than hotter for CX. You get REALLY hot going all-out for 45min. :nod

I will ping you local guys and see if our times/races link up at all. Always willing to learn from other folks. :beer:
I'm signed up for Sat at Sykelcross, and both days at DCCX.

I can't climb to save my life, so I'm skipping Charm City and Granogue

M

[redir]

Now that you mention it I do remember now that they have Masters races set up like that in some places. And yes there are some really fast older dudes too. I typically do two races a day now, the Masters and the pro/1/2, the Masters being my A race and the cat 1/2 race is just to spin around. I can't keep up with those guys anymore, in fact I can hardly keep up with the Masters these days :D

[weiwentg]

LBS is having CX training here in Haymarket...

The new-to-me Stages says I'm putting out between 800-1000w coming out of the corners, but I'm still getting passed

WTHeck?!

M

Well, maybe others are putting out 1000-1200W in the corners...

What follows is my speculation only. But power meters directly measure torque and cadence. Power = torque * cadence. The cadence in most cranksets is measured by an accelerometer. It has to estimate when the acceleration is zero. Infocrank has been pretty insistent that magnets are better for measuring cadence (https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.freshdesk.com/data/helpdesk/attachments/production/1011652268/original/Cadence_Magnets.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAJ2JSYZ7O3I4JO6DA%2F20180907%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20180907T162406Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Signature=e4a96f29f20b27cab5a36c54d9cb3d181ddfabb5 9329b49f687a1fba1c535957&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=Host&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf), even on tarmac, although they more recently implemented an accelerometer-based cadence so that people didn't have to install magnets.

As you're standing up and powering through the corner, the torque is increasing, but if your cadence also changed, it might take an accelerometer-based cadence system longer to sense that the true cadence had changed (this will depend on if the system smooths your cadence). A magnet-based system will just directly measure when the magnet passes the sensor, and it's much less ambiguous (unless you lose the magnet or it gets bumped out of range). Hence, maybe your Stages is over-stating your power in those corners. Emphasis on maybe.

This is why I went with a Pioneer meter and I installed the cadence magnet. It's probably not a big deal in most situations. Maybe it's a bigger deal in CX. I can't say for sure.

[Gummee]

This is why I went with a Pioneer meter and I installed the cadence magnet. It's probably not a big deal in most situations. Maybe it's a bigger deal in CX. I can't say for sure.

IDK if a Pioneer will work with the small rings (34/44) of CX. If they will, I'll move my Pioneer over to the CX bike for the winter.

I have an Infocrank too. Tried to file down a 44t outer ring to get it to work. No go. Grrr

The power meter is pretty irrelevant. I'm going as hard as I can and it still isn't fast enough. Knowing how much I suck only adds to the hurt

M

[weiwentg]

IDK if a Pioneer will work with the small rings (34/44) of CX. If they will, I'll move my Pioneer over to the CX bike for the winter.

I have an Infocrank too. Tried to file down a 44t outer ring to get it to work. No go. Grrr

The power meter is pretty irrelevant. I'm going as hard as I can and it still isn't fast enough. Knowing how much I suck only adds to the hurt

M

Any reason that Pioneer, which is a Shimano-based crankset, shouldn't work with CX rings for those same cranksets? This is a genuine question, I don't recall hearing anything about this one way or another.

[chiasticon]

consistently putting out 800-1000W out of the corners for a 45-60 minute race is pro-level stuff: https://www.cxmagazine.com/training-cyclocross-power-ryan-trebon-wattage-file

"Further analysis shows that Ryan spent the majority of this race between 400w and 800w, or between about 95 and 190% of his FTP. He accelerated more than 120 times at or near 850w for 20 to 30 seconds."

my guess is it's something to do with the Stages; maybe it's being thrown off in such cases (as described above) or there's a calibration issue...? my Quarq seems in line with what I'd expect coming out of the corners (without a cadence magnet), based on what I know from using it for road and CX for a few years. that said, I only use it in practice. it's useless in a race (to me at least).