OT: 2018-19 NBA Thread.

[Jaybee]

Training camps start in just a couple weeks!

Any thoughts on these over/under win projections?

Atl 24
Bos 59
Brk 32
Cha 35.5
Chi 30
Cle 30.5
Dal 34.5
Den 47.5
Det 38
GS 62.5
Hou 56
Ind 48
LAC 36.5
LAL 48.5
Mem 32.5
Mia 41.5
Mil 47.5
Min 44.5
NO 46
NY 29
OKC 50
Orl 31
Phi 54.5
Phx 29
Por 41.5
Sac 25.5
SA 44.5
Tor 55.5
Uth 49.5
Wsh 44.5

My only thought is that GSW will only lose 20 games if they just take all of December-February off, or Boogie Cousins snaps KD in half over a locker room gambling debt.

[boomforeal]

taking the over on utah. the line is moving but still way too low

edit: and the under on LA

[DRZRM]

Not based on anything but my gut feeling--I've heard nothing about BB since James trade--so take it for what it is worth.

I think LAL are over 48.5 and BOS are under 59.

[FlashUNC]

Given how bored they looked, and GSW's remarkable run of health these last few years, I'd say they're due for a lull 20 feels about right. You could even see it with Kerr's postgame comments after the title win that 2017-2018 was a rough one for them.

I could easily see them not being the 1 seed out of the West.

If the Hawks win 20 games I'll be amazed.

[Jaybee]

Given how bored they looked, and GSW's remarkable run of health these last few years, I'd say they're due for a lull 20 feels about right. You could even see it with Kerr's postgame comments after the title win that 2017-2018 was a rough one for them.

I could easily see them not being the 1 seed out of the West.

If the Hawks win 20 games I'll be amazed.

Houston is not winning 60 this year - they got worse. I like OKC to do a little better than 50 - maybe 52/53 max. I get that GSW doesn't care until May, and doesn't really really care until June, but they can sleepwalk their way to 60 by playing hard about 6 minutes of every game.

I think LAL is under 48, but wins their first round series, and agree that the Jazz are over 49.5. I think Toronto is over also.

Spurs maybe not in the playoffs this year? Craziness.

[RC.]

taking the over on utah. the line is moving but still way too low

edit: and the under on LA

I was coming here to say, yeah on that over. Jazz won 48 with 1/3 of the season wrecked because of injuries. There is no way they lose less than 49 even in the west.

[marsh]

Bulls over 30 fo sho!

[FlashUNC]

Houston is not winning 60 this year - they got worse. I like OKC to do a little better than 50 - maybe 52/53 max. I get that GSW doesn't care until May, and doesn't really really care until June, but they can sleepwalk their way to 60 by playing hard about 6 minutes of every game.

I think LAL is under 48, but wins their first round series, and agree that the Jazz are over 49.5. I think Toronto is over also.

Spurs maybe not in the playoffs this year? Craziness.

I'm not sold on Houston getting worse. They were 14-1 without Trevor Ariza during the year, and their Harden/Paul/Capela trifecta is still together. And they got some more offense in Carmelo to rest the other guys a bit.

They were never a defensive juggernaut, but I still think given the Game 7 loss they'll be motivated again.

I'm more counting on that "Klay tears a knee ligament" or "Durant goes down with an ankle injury" kinda thing for long stretches.

[Jaybee]

I'm not sold on Houston getting worse. They were 14-1 without Trevor Ariza during the year, and their Harden/Paul/Capela trifecta is still together. And they got some more offense in Carmelo to rest the other guys a bit.

They were never a defensive juggernaut, but I still think given the Game 7 loss they'll be motivated again.

I'm more counting on that "Klay tears a knee ligament" or "Durant goes down with an ankle injury" kinda thing for long stretches.

Houston was 6th in defense last year. Maybe not a juggernaut, but no slouch.
This might be the only place where Carmelo still works - assuming he can be efficient enough out of isolation to make the math profitable.

Anyway, you post makes sense, and I could definitely see the W's having their injury luck run out.

The East is still garbage overall, but Boston/Philly/Toronto should be fun.

[FlashUNC]

Houston was 6th in defense last year. Maybe not a juggernaut, but no slouch.
This might be the only place where Carmelo still works - assuming he can be efficient enough out of isolation to make the math profitable.

Anyway, you post makes sense, and I could definitely see the W's having their injury luck run out.

The East is still garbage overall, but Boston/Philly/Toronto should be fun.

Philly in the Finals. Calling it now.

The world needs Embiid going Full Heel and the Sixers becoming the unapologetic, preening villains of the East.

I'm fascinated to see just what the Raptors have with Kawhi. Does he sulk for an entire season? Is the injury that bad? Is it possible to be a professional NBA player and not voluntarily speak to anyone ever?

[RC.]

Philly in the Finals. Calling it now.



Over the Celtics? Interesting.

[FlashUNC]

Over the Celtics? Interesting.

Oh yeah. Preseason is the time for bold claims right? I'm skeptical the Hayward/Irving/Horford pairing is going to mesh as well as Boston hopes.

[RC.]

Oh yeah. Preseason is the time for bold claims right? I'm skeptical the Hayward/Irving/Horford pairing is going to mesh as well as Boston hopes.

Well, from your fingertips to the NBA gods ears...I would love nothing more than seeing the C's implode.

[FlashUNC]

Well, from your fingertips to the NBA gods ears...I would love nothing more than seeing the C's implode.

All three of them have had some pretty serious injury histories. Horford's torn both pecs. Irving is a walking mash unit. And Hayward, we all watched (and heard) that nightmare happen.

But Stevens is a helluva coach. I just hope Ben Simmons has learned to shoot outside 10 feet.

[Dave B]

you know how so many of you hate Lance?

I feel that way about the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The impact these leagues and these athletes have on folks is just sickening to me.

I used to be all in with specific teams for very good reasons. Now, it is just a more organized version of the Kardashians.

[FlashUNC]

you know how so many of you hate Lance?

I feel that way about the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The impact these leagues and these athletes have on folks is just sickening to me.

I used to be all in with specific teams for very good reasons. Now, it is just a more organized version of the Kardashians.

https://i.imgur.com/fZdxhgr.gif

[RC.]

you know how so many of you hate Lance?

I feel that way about the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The impact these leagues and these athletes have on folks is just sickening to me.

I used to be all in with specific teams for very good reasons. Now, it is just a more organized version of the Kardashians.

Feel better now?

[boomforeal]

I feel that way about the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The impact these leagues and these athletes have on folks is just sickening to me.

that's a pretty broad brush. mind sharing what sickens you about the nba? definitely seems to me like the least reprehensible of the major sports leagues (faint praise sure, but still)

[RC.]

that's a pretty broad brush. mind sharing what sickens you about the nba? definitely seems to me like the least reprehensible of the major sports leagues (faint praise sure, but still)

Nah. Come on. Don't let him derail!

[harlond]

I’ll take the over on the Bucks. Giannis can still improve, Middleton too, and with Budenholzer coaching I expect improvement on both ends of the court.

[boomforeal]

I’ll take the over on the Bucks. Giannis can still improve, Middleton too, and with Budenholzer coaching I expect improvement on both ends of the court.

i dunno

i like the bucks personel as individuals. but i'm struggling to see how bud will replicate the success he had with the 14/15 hawks with this group. hopefully he comes up with a plan that maximizes their strengths - there are a lot of those! - but if he tries to implement "his system" (smart team defence, unselfish ball movement, etc.) with these guys i don't see it going well

[Aaron O]

Philly in the Finals. Calling it now.

The world needs Embiid going Full Heel and the Sixers becoming the unapologetic, preening villains of the East.

I'm fascinated to see just what the Raptors have with Kawhi. Does he sulk for an entire season? Is the injury that bad? Is it possible to be a professional NBA player and not voluntarily speak to anyone ever?

Words can't express the level to which I love this post, and hope it's true.

My bet? Toronto is going to be good. Very good. As will Boston (obviously). Indiana is, IMO, extremely underrated.

[Aaron O]

Some picks I think are sticking out...

Chi - over
Miami - under
SA - under
Cleveland - Under
Portland - over

[72gmc]

Hardly on topic, but:

https://deadspin.com/when-the-nellie-kush-hits-1828907500

A happy hazy story to start the weekend.

[Jaybee]

Hardly on topic, but:

https://deadspin.com/when-the-nellie-kush-hits-1828907500

A happy hazy story to start the weekend.

This is amazing. Have a lot of work to do in the next 40 years to be as chill as Nellie.

[harlond]

i dunno

i like the bucks personel as individuals. but i'm struggling to see how bud will replicate the success he had with the 14/15 hawks with this group. hopefully he comes up with a plan that maximizes their strengths - there are a lot of those! - but if he tries to implement "his system" (smart team defence, unselfish ball movement, etc.) with these guys i don't see it going wellFair enough. That 2014-15 Hawks team had a lot of talent--Horford, Millsap, Teague, Korver--no other way to win 60 games. Maybe it's a bit of a reach for these Bucks, but they only need to get to 48 wins, and they won 44 last year while playing mediocre defense. Bud should be able to help there, and Giannis has no ceiling.

I'm not really a Bucks fan, I started following them because I'm a Brogdon fan. But you can't watch Giannis and not become a fan.

[FlashUNC]

As much as it pains me, Bud with the Bucks is a great pairing. That magical Hawks team was first-and-foremost, a defense driven machine, switch happy and feasting on turnovers in passing lanes. This was before Demarre Carroll turned into a mummy the last couple years, but that undefeated January they were a offense throttling, pass-happy, three point crazy juggernaut.

If Bud gets half that out of a long, athletic, talented Bucks roster, I see them goin places. Giannis is easily more talented than anyone Bud had in Atlanta. Sky's the limit.

Now I gotta go to YouTube and watch some 2014-2015 Hawks highlights.

[Jaybee]

So I guess we should probably go under on the T-wolves. What a tire fire that is turning into.

[boomforeal]

So I guess we should probably go under on the T-wolves. What a tire fire that is turning into.

yeah. tibs seems like he's going to take the fall hard for this... but i'm thinking that responsibility, and blame for the wolves' last 25 years of lousy-ness, has to rest squarely on the shoulders of glenn taylor. since he bought the team he wasted 90% of garnett's prime, lost the team 5 first round picks by trying to cheat-sign f-ing joe smith, empowered khan to botch the rebuild, lowballed love and soured his relationship with the franchise, hired the famously short-sighted tibs to mentor his young players, and maxed out wiggins after he "looked him in the eye" when he should have been looking at him on the court... that's pretty long run of poop

[Jaybee]

yeah. tibs seems like he's going to take the fall hard for this... but i'm thinking that responsibility, and blame for the wolves' last 25 years of lousy-ness, has to rest squarely on the shoulders of glenn taylor. since he bought the team he wasted 90% of garnett's prime, lost the team 5 first round picks by trying to cheat-sign f-ing joe smith, empowered khan to botch the rebuild, lowballed love and soured his relationship with the franchise, hired the famously short-sighted tibs to mentor his young players, and maxed out wiggins after he "looked him in the eye" when he should have been looking at him on the court... that's pretty long run of poop

Not much to argue with here. Truly a testament to how good KG and Flip were that they could conjure a WCF appearance out of this long-term mess.

[RC.]

The Timidwolves are a complete dumpster fire.

[Aaron O]

It feels like only yesterday when I was screaming and depressed when we didn't get Wiggins. After all, his athleticism would translate perfectly on the defensive side of the court!

I also remember thinking...

They really drafted KAT over a proven stud like Okafor? Wow will they regret that one!

I don't know why I wasn't considered for the GM job.

[Jaybee]

It feels like only yesterday when I was screaming and depressed when we didn't get Wiggins. After all, his athleticism would translate perfectly on the defensive side of the court!

I also remember thinking...

They really drafted KAT over a proven stud like Okafor? Wow will they regret that one!

I don't know why I wasn't considered for the GM job.

You and David “pass up steph curry twice in 7 picks” Kahn both seem like natural fits.

[FlashUNC]

It feels like only yesterday when I was screaming and depressed when we didn't get Wiggins. After all, his athleticism would translate perfectly on the defensive side of the court!

I also remember thinking...

They really drafted KAT over a proven stud like Okafor? Wow will they regret that one!

I don't know why I wasn't considered for the GM job.

Not to totally defend Wiggins here, but it ain't like the Timberwolves are exactly a model organization where stars go to thrive.

If his formative years were with LeBron, maybe he turns into a different player?

[TonyG]

For good teams like GS its about motivation if they show up every night motivated that team wins 63 games without question. But that may not happen.

The team with both some talent and something to prove are the Lakers I'd put money on them for an over before GS and I'm a GS fan

[RC.]

For good teams like GS its about motivation if they show up every night motivated that team wins 63 games without question. But that may not happen.

The team with both some talent and something to prove are the Lakers I'd put money on them for an over before GS and I'm a GS fan

In a recent podcast episode with your boy, Bill Simmons, Curry talked about the team losing a bit of motivation/ drive this last season and that with the addition of Cousins and the energy he brings, the Warriors might have that fire again.

[Jaybee]

The more I read about this Jimmy Butler situation, the more I wonder if the Wolves won't get a little bump in chemistry/cohesiveness by trading him. Wiggins is horribly inefficient, but he's still better with the ball in his hands than as a 3rd option spotting in the corner. Make this KATs team, let Thibs yell "ice" until he can't speak (3 days into training camp), and fight for a 7-8 seed. Jimmy can go average 24 on a lottery team and feud with his teammates.

[Aaron O]

Not to totally defend Wiggins here, but it ain't like the Timberwolves are exactly a model organization where stars go to thrive.

If his formative years were with LeBron, maybe he turns into a different player?

The Sixers were a dumpster fire, but guys still at least tried to play defense. Guys not named Okafor anyway.

I don’t really think there’s any defense for that guy’s lack of intensity. I also don’t see the wolves making a low seed this season, KAT or not.

[Aaron O]

You and David “pass up steph curry twice in 7 picks” Kahn both seem like natural fits.

In my defense, I loved Jamal Murray, Booker and Donovan Mitchell. I’m right every now and then too (unlike Kahn).

But I did think Tatum was crap. Oh well!

[Climb01742]

The more I read about this Jimmy Butler situation, the more I wonder if the Wolves won't get a little bump in chemistry/cohesiveness by trading him. Wiggins is horribly inefficient, but he's still better with the ball in his hands than as a 3rd option spotting in the corner. Make this KATs team, let Thibs yell "ice" until he can't speak (3 days into training camp), and fight for a 7-8 seed. Jimmy can go average 24 on a lottery team and feud with his teammates.

Some part of the blame for the Wolves’ mess falls on Thibs. He’s brilliant as an assistant coach, as he was with the Celtics. But he runs his players into the ground as HC. The results are decent teams that will never win titles or even reach the Finals. Thibs is the anti-Popovich, who knows how to coax bodies through 82 games and be ready for the postseason. As every assistant on the Patriots has proven, some guys just aren’t head coaches, no matter how smart.

[wc1934]

Some part of the blame for the Wolves’ mess falls on Thibs. He’s brilliant as an assistant coach, as he was with the Celtics. But he runs his players into the ground as HC. The results are decent teams that will never win titles or even reach the Finals. Thibs is the anti-Popovich, who knows how to coax bodies through 82 games and be ready for the postseason. As every assistant on the Patriots has proven, some guys just aren’t head coaches, no matter how smart.

Hope that is the case tomorrow with Patricia and the Lions.

[RC.]

Holy **** that Kawhi interview is fire!

https://streamable.com/a2abw

[FlashUNC]

Holy **** that Kawhi interview is fire!

https://streamable.com/a2abw

I'm not sure Kawhi passed the Turing Test there. The laugh was just...wow.

Is he really just an android built to play otherworldly on the wing?

[Jaybee]

His hands aren't really human sized - android theory has plausibility.

As a self-identified introvert, I feel for him. He is way over on one side of the intro/extro curve, and having a significant portion of his job be interfacing with public and media must be excruciating for him.

[FlashUNC]

His hands aren't really human sized - android theory has plausibility.

As a self-identified introvert, I feel for him. He is way over on one side of the intro/extro curve, and having a significant portion of his job be interfacing with public and media must be excruciating for him.

I feel for the guy in some ways. Have we ever had a Top 10 (Top 5 maybe?) who constantly looked like they'd want to run and hide from a press scrum like this, even though he routinely plays bonkers basketball in front of millions of eyeballs?

I forget where I read it (Zach Lowe maybe?) that his quietness extends to the court, where he rarely says anything on the floor, and never trash talks, to the point where it starts to get in some opponents heads. Like, the dude just doesn't talk. At all.

[boomforeal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZsshe1vJLo

oh baby

[harlond]

He really looks like the real deal.

[FlashUNC]

I hope he doesn't haunt the Hawks for the next decade, and generally take preseason and Summer League with a grain of salt. Nice handles, but man he looks totally lost on defense.

Hope Trae Young and another lottery pick is worth passing on Doncic.

[boomforeal]

Nice handles, but man he looks totally lost on defense.

other than those perfectly timed weakside blocks you mean? the one where he stripped the guy on the way down after mistiming his jump was :banana:

i didn't watch the whole game, just that highlight real. but c'mon man, how many rookies are good at defence? he's going full court off of rebounds in traffic, hitting cutters in stride, connecting from a good 4 feet beyond the arc, showing a rush hour handle and finishing over length with ease bordering on disdain. in his first game as a pro. enjoy it!

[FlashUNC]

other than those perfectly timed weakside blocks you mean? the one where he stripped the guy on the way down after mistiming his jump was :banana:

i didn't watch the whole game, just that highlight real. but c'mon man, how many rookies are good at defence? he's going full court off of rebounds in traffic, hitting cutters in stride, connecting from a good 4 feet beyond the arc, showing a rush hour handle and finishing over length with ease bordering on disdain. in his first game as a pro. enjoy it!

Sure, against guys who won't be in the league come the start of the season. I get it, they're fun to watch. I put more stock in his Euroleague highlights than 4 minutes in NBA competition. What he's accomplished at his age in the second best league in the planet, it's clear he'll have a long career in the NBA.
But literally the first 30 seconds of the highlight showing him getting totally lost on a switch and doing the Bargiani, just frantically looking around in the paint for someone, anyone in another colored jersey to body up. It's rookie growing pains sure, but I'm not putting too much stock in one preseason game either, fun highlight or no.

[Jaybee]

Sure, against guys who won't be in the league come the start of the season. I get it, they're fun to watch. I put more stock in his Euroleague highlights than 4 minutes in NBA competition. What he's accomplished at his age in the second best league in the planet, it's clear he'll have a long career in the NBA.
But literally the first 30 seconds of the highlight showing him getting totally lost on a switch and doing the Bargiani, just frantically looking around in the paint for someone, anyone in another colored jersey to body up. It's rookie growing pains sure, but I'm not putting too much stock in one preseason game either, fun highlight or no.


I noticed this too. A lot of rookies are good at defending on ball. Almost all of them have no clue how NBA rotation schemes work for a good few months, which is why I'll give him a pass on this. The handles and vision are next level though - I think he's probably a good early bet for Rookie of the Year, and I would have said that prior to the draft.

I hope Trey Young is good too, but I get the sense that the Hawks are hoping he's Steph 2.0, and I'm not sure there is a Steph 2.0 out there.

[boomforeal]

But literally the first 30 seconds of the highlight showing him getting totally lost on a switch and doing the Bargiani, just frantically looking around in the paint for someone, anyone in another colored jersey to body up.

ahem

but c'mon man, how many rookies are good at defence?

I get it, they're fun to watch.

https://i.imgflip.com/11gn1b.jpg

[Aaron O]

Sure, against guys who won't be in the league come the start of the season. I get it, they're fun to watch. I put more stock in his Euroleague highlights than 4 minutes in NBA competition. What he's accomplished at his age in the second best league in the planet, it's clear he'll have a long career in the NBA.
But literally the first 30 seconds of the highlight showing him getting totally lost on a switch and doing the Bargiani, just frantically looking around in the paint for someone, anyone in another colored jersey to body up. It's rookie growing pains sure, but I'm not putting too much stock in one preseason game either, fun highlight or no.

Given my track record, maybe I shouldn't be making predictions...

But teams actually passed on drafting a guy who outplayed Porzingis as an 18 year old in meaningful basketball?!?

I'd have taken him so fast his head would spin.

As far as Trae Young and Steph Curry...I'm not holding my breath there.

Finally...I still can't believe we passed on Robert Williams for a guy with bad ankles. Even worse, he's a Celtic.

[RC.]

My boy, Grayson Allen, looked great in his first game, granted it was against the Perth Wildcats, but still. His stroke looked firme!

[Jaybee]

My boy, Grayson Allen, looked great in his first game, granted it was against the Perth Wildcats, but still. His stroke looked firme!

People actually claim Grayson Allen?

Yeegads. :eek:

[RC.]

People actually claim Grayson Allen?

Yeegads. :eek:

Yeah, I get it, but he's part of the squad now, so, all ill feelings from before have to be re-calibrated...

[Jaybee]

Yeah, I get it, but he's part of the squad now, so, all ill feelings from before have to be re-calibrated...

Hey, it wouldn't be Utah if they didn't have a preppy white kid shooting 3's.

[RC.]

Hey, it wouldn't be Utah if they didn't have a preppy white kid shooting 3's.

If Mitchell is good with the kid, especially after their history, then he's good with me.

I can only hope he turns into a more athletic Horny!

[FlashUNC]

Given my track record, maybe I shouldn't be making predictions...

But teams actually passed on drafting a guy who outplayed Porzingis as an 18 year old in meaningful basketball?!?

I'd have taken him so fast his head would spin.

As far as Trae Young and Steph Curry...I'm not holding my breath there.

Finally...I still can't believe we passed on Robert Williams for a guy with bad ankles. Even worse, he's a Celtic.

He's got the court vision, the distribution is there. The shooting will come, but yes, Steph 2.0 is wildly optimistic. Legally blind man's Steve Nash? That's not the worst outcome ever. John Collins is super bouncy and Amare Stoudemire Redux (hopefully without the microfracture surgery). I'm more excited for Year 2 of the John Collins experiment than I am Year 1 of Trae Young. If Collins can shoot the 3 regularly and still provide his transition bounce, he's going to be a nightmare Stretch 4.

So we'll see what the Hawks have. Schlenck thinks Young has a higher ceiling than Doncic, which I don't know if I'd agree with that assessment. But Young another Top 10 that they hit on? Man...that changes the calculus a bit. Just have to look at the Hawks draft to see Schlenck is going for Warriors East: Point guard who shoots from everywhere and distributes, a 2 guard shooter with good size, and a flex 5 guy who does all the dirty work and maybe his the occasional corner 3.

[boomforeal]

so nice to have nate and danny back in the saddle together. lucy with the football ftw

[Aaron O]

JoJo looks monstrous. People don't realize that last season's Embiid, who was capable of utter domination, was Embiid without an off season, and with a shot that had regressed. By the playoffs, you had a much less dominant center piece who couldn't see the hoop when shooting.

This Embiid is going to be fun (with the obvious qualification).

[RC.]

Donovan to Rudy!

https://streamable.com/zcj5l

They're not Showtime but they're going to be fun to watch!

https://streamable.com/2uwrq

[FlashUNC]

Donovan to Rudy!

https://streamable.com/zcj5l

They're not Showtime but they're going to be fun to watch!

https://streamable.com/2uwrq

That whole Jazz team is a blur of fun, goofy weirdness.

[RC.]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24884859/lakers-javale-mcgee-says-league-phasing-big-men

While he has carved out a career in the NBA that has lasted more than a decade, he claims the direction the league is heading is conspiring against him and his exceedingly tall brethren.

"It's extremely hard because it seems like they don't want us here," McGee said after Wednesday's practice. "They're trying to get us out of here. The prime example is them taking us off the All-Star ballot. They literally took the whole position off the All-Star ballot. So just think about that."

What say you?

[boomforeal]

i dunno

i like the bucks personel as individuals. but i'm struggling to see how bud will replicate the success he had with the 14/15 hawks with this group. hopefully he comes up with a plan that maximizes their strengths - there are a lot of those! - but if he tries to implement "his system" (smart team defence, unselfish ball movement, etc.) with these guys i don't see it going well

caught parts of the first half of the buck/bulls game last night. with the obvious caveats (early, preseason, vs. the bulls, etc.) it looks like my fears may have been unfounded. on offence the bucks spaced the floor well and perhaps more importantly, naturally; lots of cutting, setting high screens, finding the open man; they looked great, utah-esque. defence looked better too, more conservative at least and no easy baskets but again, it was against the bulls

What say you?

dude,

http://a1.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2018%2F0920%2Fr434268_1296x729_16 %2D9.jpg

[RC.]

caught parts of the first half of the buck/bulls game last night. with the obvious caveats (early, preseason, vs. the bulls, etc.) it looks like my fears may have been unfounded. on offence the bucks spaced the floor well and perhaps more importantly, naturally; lots of cutting, setting high screens, finding the open man; they looked great, utah-esque. defence looked better too, more conservative at least and no easy baskets but again, it was against the bulls


Yeah, bro. Kind of an ugly shot but if he is able to make more of these, things will be changing!

https://streamable.com/mf1q8

[FlashUNC]

Bud is legit. He'll get them playing his system the right way. Lots of space, lots of off-ball movement, surround G with shooters and let the Freak go to work.

Defense will be better than whatever hyper trapping nonsense Kidd ran.

[RC.]

Bud is legit. He'll get them playing his system the right way. Lots of space, lots of off-ball movement, surround G with shooters and let the Freak go to work.

Defense will be better than whatever hyper trapping nonsense Kidd ran.

Definitely. It's an exciting time in the NBA.

[Jaybee]

Bud is legit. He'll get them playing his system the right way. Lots of space, lots of off-ball movement, surround G with shooters and let the Freak go to work.

Defense will be better than whatever hyper trapping nonsense Kidd ran.

Man, Milwaukee has so much to gain just by instituting a normal defense. You could see a little of that last year after Kidd got canned, just a return to replacement-level coaching, but it should be even better with Bud.

[FlashUNC]

Man, Milwaukee has so much to gain just by instituting a normal defense. You could see a little of that last year after Kidd got canned, just a return to replacement-level coaching, but it should be even better with Bud.

Bud turned Kyle Korver into a replacement-level NBA defender on the wing. I can only imagine what he'll do with the Freak.

That magical 60-win Hawks team of 2015 was defense first, with arms everywhere and playing all the angles and trapping at the right times and causing ridiculous amounts of turnovers. The passing and sharing and 3s and all that was the result, though most folks focused on that as the shiny bauble.

He's a D-first guy. If you don't play D and do it well, you're going to sit. Bucks could be sneaky good this year in the East.

[Jaybee]

Alright - opening night is just a week away. We know who is ready to go and who is not (Goddammit, Dejounte Murray!) Give me your 8 playoff teams in each conference.


I'll go:

1) W's
2) Jazz
3) Rockets
4) Thunder
5) Lakers
6) Pelicans
7) Blazers
8) Spurs

and

1) Sixers
2) Celtics
3) Raps
4) Bucks
5) Pacers
6) Wiz
7) Heat
8) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[velotrack]

if anyone's following, this jimmy butler at practice today drama is fantastic.

[Aaron O]

1) W's
2) Lakers
3) Jazz
4) Rockets
5) Pelicans
6) Nuggets
7) Thunder
8) Blazers

and

1) Celtics :mad::mad:
2) Raptors
3) Sixers :hello::hello::hello:
4) Pacers
5) Bucks
6) Wiz
7) Chicago
8) Knicks :eek:

Butler is really irritating...if you want to pull the Kobe routine, you have to be Kobe...and he didn't do that after missing games after first round losses. And Kobe was STILL a gigantic asshole.

[Jaybee]

oh man. thanks for the heads up.

[Jaybee]

1) W's
2) Lakers
3) Jazz
4) Rockets
5) Pelicans
6) Nuggets
7) Thunder
8) Blazers

and

1) Celtics :mad::mad:
2) Raptors
3) Sixers :hello::hello::hello:
4) Pacers
5) Bucks
6) Wiz
7) Chicago
8) Knicks :eek:

Butler is really irritating...if you want to pull the Kobe routine, you have to be Kobe...and he didn't do that after missing games after first round losses. And Kobe was STILL a gigantic asshole.


You really believe in Bron, huh? I do too, just think it will take them 30 something games to figure out what they are.

Can't believe I left the Nuggets out of my West list. Especially since I, ya know, live here. I'm retroactively putting them at 6 and moving everyone else down a slot.

Kobe was going for the trial-by-fire angle when he got up on Smush and Kwame. I don't know what Butler's angle is here. The Wolves are committed to KAT and Wiggins by contracts/age. Jimmy is their best player, but he's got to be moved. The chances that Wolves find a deal they can stomach for a player that good are continually eroded as he undermines their leverage at every turn. He's now actively working against his own apparent self-interest.

[Aaron O]

Considering "we" have Miami's 2021 pick, unprotected, I really hope Miami gets him. He'll either leave by then, and they'll give assets for the rental...or, even better, they sign him. And 2021 should be just in time for him to be, basically, Deng. And Butler and Whiteside? :hello::bike::help:

[Aaron O]

You really believe in Bron, huh? I do too, just think it will take them 30 something games to figure out what they are.

Can't believe I left the Nuggets out of my West list. Especially since I, ya know, live here. I'm retroactively putting them at 6 and moving everyone else down a slot.

Kobe was going for the trial-by-fire angle when he got up on Smush and Kwame. I don't know what Butler's angle is here. The Wolves are committed to KAT and Wiggins by contracts/age. Jimmy is their best player, but he's got to be moved. The chances that Wolves find a deal they can stomach for a player that good are continually eroded as he undermines their leverage at every turn. He's now actively working against his own apparent self-interest.
Honestly...if Butler is their best player...with Wiggins and KAT on super max...they have a bigger problem. I still think Wiggins is their make or break. Agree on your point though!

I think I said elsewhere here...it seems like yesterday I was angry and depressed when the sixers got the 3rd pick and missed on Wiggins. They took Embiid? With his injuries! ***?!? Yeah - I guess that's why I'm not a GM.

You could be right about them taking some time, but I'm also very high on Ingram, and they have a lot of tough, smart shooters on that bench. Josh hart? Born to play with Bron. I'm also more impressed with Lonzo than some. OK - he's a poor man's Ben Simmons, but that's still high praise! I also really like KCP...and am pissed we didn't do more to land him in 17'.

[Jaybee]

Are you implying that a Tom Thibadeau player who relies on athleticism is headed for a steep drop-off in his early 30s? Joakim Noah would like a word, sir.

I think the fact that KAT and Wiggins are on Supermax (have to do the first, not sure why they did the latter) and Butler isn't is part of the issue, IMO. Butler is headed for that steep drop-off, but he is absolutely their best 2-way player. I understand why Thibs brought him in for win-now purposes with his guys, but he has really stunted KATs growth. He needs to be closer to the 28% usage rate he was in 16-17 instead of the 22% he was last season.


In addition to the Lakers taking some time to work out their best lineups (and I'm with you that those lineups will involve their young players + LBJ), I have a feeling that we will get 50% LBJ until about February. He's got miles, and he knows how to meter his effort so he's ready to go in May.

[Aaron O]

Are you implying that a Tom Thibadeau player who relies on athleticism is headed for a steep drop-off in his early 30s? Joakim Noah would like a word, sir.

I think the fact that KAT and Wiggins are on Supermax (have to do the first, not sure why they did the latter) and Butler isn't is part of the issue, IMO. Butler is headed for that steep drop-off, but he is absolutely their best 2-way player. I understand why Thibs brought him in for win-now purposes with his guys, but he has really stunted KATs growth. He needs to be closer to the 28% usage rate he was in 16-17 instead of the 22% he was last season.


In addition to the Lakers taking some time to work out their best lineups (and I'm with you that those lineups will involve their young players + LBJ), I have a feeling that we will get 50% LBJ until about February. He's got miles, and he knows how to meter his effort so he's ready to go in May.

Good point on Bron picking his battles. That said, i think the much ballyhooed west has lots of depth, but not that much true cream. The Lakers could go anywhere from 8-2...but i'm betting Bron and Ingram is more than most other squads have. The Jazz look like the future team of the west IMO.

I'm about to get shredded for this...but...

Yes, it's the warriors and everyone else...and harden might be the best player in the NBA today...but I think there are 3 east teams, maybe four, who would have a legit shot at a 2nd seed in the west.

This pains me to say...but I think the Celtics have a legit shot at knocking off GS. A shot mind you. I hate how much I love Horford, Tatum and Brown :mad:

At least they have Irving...he's easy to dislike.

[Aaron O]

Now the opposite...

Worst team in the NBA this year? I think it's ATL. Young guards typically struggle, and they really don't look like they have much.

My absolute dream...Sacremento wins the lottery, and that much discussed Boston trade becomes a 26th pick.

[FlashUNC]

Jesus, Jimmy Butler is gonna go and make it weird until he gets the trade, isn't he?

What a dysfunctional mess ruining some important years for KAT.

Whoever gives Butler his max is going to regret it, and sooner rather than later.

[Aaron O]

Jesus, Jimmy Butler is gonna go and make it weird until he gets the trade, isn't he?

What a dysfunctional mess ruining some important years for KAT.

Whoever gives Butler his max is going to regret it, and sooner rather than later.

PLEASE let it be Miami! I was hoping it would be Boston last year.

[Jaybee]

Fun starts tonight!

Who you got for individual awards?

I'll go:

MVP - Embiid
COY - Snyder
ROY - Doncic
DPOY - Gobert
6th Man - Siakam
MIP: Ingram

I started to do All-NBA teams, but just picking 2 of LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/Giannis/Davis broke my brain.

[akelman]

Fun starts tonight!

Who you got for individual awards?

I'll go:

MVP - Embiid
COY - Snyder
ROY - Doncic
DPOY - Gobert
6th Man - Siakam

I started to do All-NBA teams, but just picking 2 of LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/Giannis/Davis broke my brain.

I don't know the current betting line, but I'd give you 3:1 odds on Embiid winning MVP and feel very good about it.

[akelman]

Maybe even 5:1. I'd put the over-under on games played for Embiid at 63.

[Jaybee]

Maybe even 5:1. I'd put the over-under on games played for Embiid at 63.


That's better than you'd find at most sports books. It's a wild prediction that's entirely dependent on Jo being healthy, the Sixers being a 55+ win team, and believing that some of the other players who are more popular picks (LeBron, Giannis, Harden, KD/Curry) are either going to be metering their effort, not quite as good as people expect, or not clearly the best player on their own team.

Probably wrong, just throwing it out there.

Who you got?

[junkfood]

Giannis Antetokounmpo is my pick for MVP this year. The Bucks could sneak into as high as a 2nd seed in the east. Budenholzer will have them winning the majority of the games they should over inferior opponents. The bucks will likely be behind Boston, Philly and Toronto, but I wouldn't be shocked if they sneak past one or 2 of them for a 2 seed. MVP voters rely heavily on team wins when voting and they love 2 way players.



Jake

[marsh]

Beginning of Bulls season will be super-interesting. Jabari Parker absolutely was not a fit in the starting lineup. Not enough D with both him and Zach Levine on the floor. Kudos to Hoiberg for having the guts to bench the big free agent signing, and for dangling the carrot by making him the primary ball handler of the 2nd unit. We will be middle of the pack, but at least we will be interesting. Do not miss Jimmy Buckets one bit.

[Jaybee]

Beginning of Bulls season will be super-interesting. Jabari Parker absolutely was not a fit in the starting lineup. Not enough D with both him and Zach Levine on the floor. Kudos to Hoiberg for having the guts to bench the big free agent signing, and for dangling the carrot by making him the primary ball handler of the 2nd unit. We will be middle of the pack, but at least we will be interesting. Do not miss Jimmy Buckets one bit.

You're optimistic! Hope you are right - I'm not a fan of any of these teams, but I think the NBA is more interesting as a league when Chicago, NY, LAL are good.

[Aaron O]

That's better than you'd find at most sports books. It's a wild prediction that's entirely dependent on Jo being healthy, the Sixers being a 55+ win team, and believing that some of the other players who are more popular picks (LeBron, Giannis, Harden, KD/Curry) are either going to be metering their effort, not quite as good as people expect, or not clearly the best player on their own team.

Probably wrong, just throwing it out there.

Who you got?
I'm heavily biased...but I think Embiid has an excellent chance...

People forget...that Embiid who was so good last year? He didn't get an off season...and he wasn't able to condition at peak. If you saw him this pre-season, you saw what he looks like.

Embiid, healthy, is a two way dominating force that makes everyone around him better on both sides of the ball. Excellent shot at MVP, and he's a much more dominant player than greek freak (and it's really not close).

[Jaybee]

The big questions around Embiid are how many games he plays and how many minutes/game he can handle. If he is less than 70 games @ 30 min per, it does open the door for someone who didn't miss 1/8 of the season, and I'm excited to see what Giannis does with 4 shooters around him.

[akelman]

The big questions around Embiid are how many games he plays and how many minutes/game he can handle. If he is less than 70 games @ 30 min per, it does open the door for someone who didn't miss 1/8 of the season, and I'm excited to see what Giannis does with 4 shooters around him.

I figure that KD and Steph will split votes; Hardin isn't going to win again, no matter what he does; the same is true of Russ; LeBron isn't likely to expend the energy needed to win a regular-season award; and if the past is prelude, Embiid won't play enough games to get the votes. So, that leaves Kawhi and Giannis. If Kawhi is truly healthy, my money's on him. If he's not, I think Giannis probably wins relatively easily. The Bucks will play faster this year, they'll move the ball around, and Giannis is a year more mature.

[akelman]

I just realized that I completely forget Anthony Davis, who, if he plays like he did at the end of last season, will walk away with the award. That said, I don't think the Pelicans will win enough games for Davis to be a serious contender.

[Jaybee]

I figure that KD and Steph will split votes; Hardin isn't going to win again, no matter what he does; the same is true of Russ; LeBron isn't likely to expend the energy needed to win a regular-season award; and if the past is prelude, Embiid won't play enough games to get the votes. So, that leaves Kawhi and Giannis. If Kawhi is truly healthy, my money's on him. If he's not, I think Giannis probably wins relatively easily. The Bucks will play faster this year, they'll move the ball around, and Giannis is a year more mature.

Good analysis. This was kinda where I ended up too.... then I decided that Giannis was a little too trendy a pick and I wanted to be different. You're probably right. I expect the Pels to regress.
I really hope Kawhi is back - I love watching him crush souls on defense.


Sixers: One game, but I have a few concerns. Fultz and Simmons can't play together - not enough shooting on the floor. Good defenses (like Boston) will force those two to shoot everytime and deny post entry Double teams were more effective than I expected against Embiid - he's not Shaq Jr. yet. A lot of this is solved by putting Redick with the starters and having Fultz be the fulcrum of the second unit. That has its own issues since I think Fultz is a starter as a demonstration of the organization's confidence in him and a demotion could have the opposite effect.

[boomforeal]

my money's on steph. the odds are pretty good (+1500) and really the only year in the last 4 he didn't deserve it was 2016/17 (when harden should have won it, but they gave it to westbrook, so they had to give it to harden last year). and maybe last year because he missed a bunch of games - which only underscored how valuable he is. hopefully/perhaps this is the year the voters/media/league/whatever come back to their senses

giannis: can't get you a bucket when it counts yet, so no
durrant: guy's a space cadet
embiid: mvp is an offense award, and his most valuable offensive role vis a vis his team is as a floor spacer
kawhi: best he can hope for this year is a redemption season
russ: pft
harden: not if any of the voters watched the playoffs in the past two years. gonna take something major to get rid of that stink now that it has settled in
anthony davis: too much talk, too early. people will get bored and no one cares about the pels
lebron: if he didn't win it last year leading the league in minutes and putting up 28/9/9 i don't think he's getting another one

i might also put money on jokic at 100-1. if he plays this year like he did on the back 9 of last season he'll deserve to be considered

[Jaybee]

It's only been a half or so, but this is the most engaged I've seen LeBron in the regular season since 2013. I want a re-do on my MVP ballot.

ETA: The Lakers really shouldnt be playing him 40 min a night.

ETA 2: I really really like Josh Hart.

[Bob Ross]

After watching a few games this week I was all set to post something about "I'd forgotten how boring early season basketball can be"

...until I watched last night's Warriors/Jazz match. :eek:

[velotrack]

the lakers/rockets fight was legit.
ingram was aggressive, but i understand - watching harden shoot 15 free throws and still complain to the refs, i'd be furious too.
rondo and cp3 have never been friends. no surprise there.

After watching a few games this week I was all set to post something about "I'd forgotten how boring early season basketball can be"

...until I watched last night's Warriors/Jazz match. :eek:

great game - the jazz played as well as i've ever seen, but yet...

[boomforeal]

my money's on steph.

ahem

[Jaybee]

I was about to post something about how Giannis (29/17/7) and Kawhi (28/8/3 on 52/42/90 shooting splits) are having similar seasons and small sample size theater and Steph just had one amazing game... but that's not true. Steph has been really good in every game and super-galactic in one.

I think the Raps have to be pretty happy with the version of Kawhi that they got. And Giannis in a 5 out offense is proving just as fun as I had hoped.

[FlashUNC]

Ultimately I think the Dubs will cruise through the regular season, particularly if they don't have the Rockets nipping at their heels all year. (Though if Morey gets Taylor to bite on this four first round picks thing and gets Butler, Paul, Harden, Capela, that might change the conversation.)

That limits Curry's MVP candidacy if he's just on cruise control for 3 months while Anthony Davis and Giannis are doing their Super Saiyan impressions every night.

And health matters too. I wonder if we'll see Curry's ankle problem crop back up.

I'll just take Trae Young doing his best Steve Nash cosplay early this year as signs of success. If only the Hawks could get Collins back on the floor.

[Jaybee]

I would just like to draw attention to the rolling trash fire that is the Cleveland Cavaliers, and propose that we retroactively return the last 4 MVP awards to LeBron for dragging that fetid corpse of a franchise to the Finals for 4 straight years.

[FlashUNC]

I would just like to draw attention to the rolling trash fire that is the Cleveland Cavaliers, and propose that we retroactively return the last 4 MVP awards to LeBron for dragging that fetid corpse of a franchise to the Finals for 4 straight years.

It's a reminder that when LeBron isn't there, this is the franchise that selected Anthony Bennett number 1 overall.

They are going to be anonymous and terrible until the next generational player happens to come from Northeast Ohio.

[Jaybee]

LeBron Jr. will be draft eligible in 4 years. I feel confident that the Cavs will be in the first few picks, unless they have traded multiple first rounders to get off Kevin Love.

[Jaybee]

I know we have at least a couple Sixers fans here. How are you feeling about the Jimmy Butler trade?

How are the rest of the Raps/Bucks/Celts fans feeling about it?

I still think Toronto is the best team in the East, and maybe the most fun team to watch this year. (Unless you're into watching the Wiz find new ways to lower the bar for bad team chemistry while not actually murdering each other on court.)

[XXtwindad]

I would just like to draw attention to the rolling trash fire that is the Cleveland Cavaliers, and propose that we retroactively return the last 4 MVP awards to LeBron for dragging that fetid corpse of a franchise to the Finals for 4 straight years.

That's pretty funny. Don't really have any guesses about the MVP. Although, no one seems to have mentioned Jokic (unless I missed it)

I think Golden State will meet Boston and I think basketball fans everywhere will rejoice. Speaking of Jokic, how fortunate we are that the days of plodding, lumbering big men like Joe Klein, John (Contract) Koncac and Mark Eaton seem to be a thing of the past.

On that note, I always had a hard time watching Shaq operate in the post. It puts the artistry of Embiid, Jokic, KAT and others in stark relief.

[Bob Ross]

On that note, I always had a hard time watching Shaq operate in the post. It puts the artistry of Embiid, Jokic, KAT and others in stark relief.

There were definitely a lot of early years there where nobody was mistaking anything Shaq did for "finesse".

Didn't seem to stop him from dominating though. And in fairness, he got better...eventually.

While I'd much rather watch a guy who can score via skill, athleticism, and a refined hybrid of dance+magic versus a brute who scores due to pure size & strength, it's perhaps worth noting that none of the other Big Guys® were as big & strong as Shaq, and/or as capable of putting the ball in the hole as often.

[XXtwindad]

There were definitely a lot of early years there where nobody was mistaking anything Shaq did for "finesse".

Didn't seem to stop him from dominating though. And in fairness, he got better...eventually.

While I'd much rather watch a guy who can score via skill, athleticism, and a refined hybrid of dance+magic versus a brute who scores due to pure size & strength, it's perhaps worth noting that none of the other Big Guys® were as big & strong as Shaq, and/or as capable of putting the ball in the hole as often.

Hi Bob -

Hakeem Olajuwon. 'Nuff said.

[Jaybee]

I've always thought of Shaq as an extreme outlier in a league full of extreme outliers. Attributing his success to his size and strength only sells him short, IMO. He was also incredibly light on his feet for a 300+ lb. human and would pretty routinely put a nice spin move or drop step on his fellow centers that would end in an and-one dunk with another really large human draped on his back. I won't penalize him for not developing a McHale-esque repertoire of moves, mostly because the one or two moves he had were essentially unstoppable. He is, depending on how you feel about Wilt, either the 3rd or 4th best center ever to play in the NBA.

[XXtwindad]

I've always thought of Shaq as an extreme outlier in a league full of extreme outliers. Attributing his success to his size and strength only sells him short, IMO. He was also incredibly light on his feet for a 300+ lb. human and would pretty routinely put a nice spin move or drop step on his fellow centers that would end in an and-one dunk with another really large human draped on his back. I won't penalize him for not developing a McHale-esque repertoire of moves, mostly because the one or two moves he had were essentially unstoppable. He is, depending on how you feel about Wilt, either the 3rd or 4th best center ever to play in the NBA.

1) Russell
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem
5) Shaq

If you're judging by the aesthetic appeal of the greatest, I'd rank the Admiral and Walton higher than Shaq as well...

[kevinvc]

1) Russell
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem
5) Shaq

If you're judging by the aesthetic appeal of the greatest, I'd rank the Admiral and Walton higher than Shaq as well...

Can't really argue with the list, although I might change the ranking a bit. What I find interesting are the "what ifs". Yao Ming and Sabonis would both likely be in the top 5 if they had come to the NBA sooner (both) and hadn't been put through the meat grinder of the Chinese system (Yao).

[XXtwindad]

Can't really argue with the list, although I might change the ranking a bit. What I find interesting are the "what ifs". Yao Ming and Sabonis would both likely be in the top 5 if they had come to the NBA sooner (both) and hadn't been put through the meat grinder of the Chinese system (Yao).

Check out the grainy videos of Sabonis schooling the U.S. in '88 (including Robinson) Full repertoire. And with a mullet that would make Michael Bolton weep with envy ...

[boomforeal]

i've been listening to people talking about the buttler trade for a few days now and i've got a take for y'all: it's going to end up being way better for minesotta than phily. i think people wildly underestimate roco and the homie's importance to that team, in terms of depth, defence, playmaking, grit and chemistry. they're going to fit around towns and wiggins seamlessly, and lift the the wolves' spirit. meanwhile buttler is going to be a horrible fit in phily, in terms of both his playing style and outsized personality. that team is going to burn

i'm picking minnesota to make the playoffs. i think phily willl to, but as a bottom-half seed

Don't really have any guesses about the MVP. Although, no one seems to have mentioned Jokic (unless I missed it)

ahem


i might also put money on jokic at 100-1. if he plays this year like he did on the back 9 of last season he'll deserve to be considered

y'all shaq haters are crazy. during the three-peat i rooted against LA every year in the finals - couldn't stand the personalities on that team, jackson's smugness, the cheesy drama, or the mindless repetitive simplicity and lack of fit of the triangle offence. but watching shaq get the ball in the the post, hammering guys with his size and a few hard dribbles and then spinning or drop stepping like a ballerina... breathtaking, pure inevitability; better than the dreamshake imo. i'd rank it my 3rd favourite basketball viewing experience with curry going off being 1st and everything michael did in the playoffs 2nd

[XXtwindad]

i've been listening to people talking about the buttler trade for a few days now and i've got a take for y'all: it's going to end up being way better for minesotta than phily. i think people wildly underestimate roco and the homie's importance to that team, in terms of depth, defence, playmaking, grit and chemistry. they're going to fit around towns and wiggins seamlessly, and lift the the wolves' spirit. meanwhile buttler is going to be a horrible fit in phily, in terms of both his playing style and outsized personality. that team is going to burn

i'm picking minnesota to make the playoffs. i think phily willl to, but as a bottom-half seed



ahem



y'all shaq haters are crazy. during the three-peat i rooted against LA every year in the finals - couldn't stand the personalities on that team, jackson's smugness, the cheesy drama, or the mindless repetitive simplicity and lack of fit of the triangle offence. but watching shaq get the ball in the the post, hammering guys with his size and a few hard dribbles and then spinning or drop stepping like a ballerina... breathtaking, pure inevitability; better than the dreamshake imo. i'd rank it my 3rd favourite basketball viewing experience with curry going off being 1st and everything michael did in the playoffs 2nd

Boom -

Really can't figure out why Butler flamed out in Minny. Great 2-way player.
Re: Shaq. Pure inevitability, yes. But can't get past the aesthetics. The Knicks were one of the most successful teams of the 90s. Watch the highlights just before bedtime ...

[Jaybee]

Butler flamed out in Minny because he is a balls-to-the-wall asshole in the mold of Kobe or Jordan without the resume to support it, and expects the same attitude out of his teammates. Probably a top 10 player if we are valuing defense as much as offense, but he can't be easy to work with.

I agree with Boom that the fit in Philly is bad at best. They need another move to get someone besides Redick that can shoot and play off the ball, and Fultz is pretty much as good as gone now, IMO.

Kyrie v. Kawhi was fun tonight. Can't wait for a whole playoff series of Leonard guarding Kyrie in crunch time.

[Climb01742]

Kyrie v. Kawhi was fun tonight. Can't wait for a whole playoff series of Leonard guarding Kyrie in crunch time.

That was fun to watch. Kyrie was on fire. But there were two other moments that gave Celtic fans hope. When Kyrie hit an open Horford for a jumper and when Tatum drove to the hole in crunch time. The C’s have been out of sync all year. Last night might be a glimpse of finding their way.

[akelman]

That was fun to watch. Kyrie was on fire. But there were two other moments that gave Celtic fans hope. When Kyrie hit an open Horford for a jumper and when Tatum drove to the hole in crunch time. The C’s have been out of sync all year. Last night might be a glimpse of finding their way.

It was also nice to see Hayward close out a game. It's still a bit painful to watch him play so far below the rim and without any apparent burst, but at least he's begun to settle in on defense, is finding open teammates with nice passes, and seems to be starting to hit some shots while in rhythm.

[Climb01742]

It was also nice to see Hayward close out a game. It's still a bit painful to watch him play so far below the rim and without any apparent burst, but at least he's begun to settle in on defense, is finding open teammates with nice passes, and seems to be starting to hit some shots while in rhythm.

Very true. His passes were crucial. He definitely looked more comfortable than he has all season. Gotta feel for him. As hard as it is to come back physically, I can’t imagine the mental hurdles he’s trying to clear. His injury was horrific.

[akelman]

Very true. His passes were crucial. He definitely looked more comfortable than he has all season. Gotta feel for him. As hard as it is to come back physically, I can’t imagine the mental hurdles he’s trying to clear. His injury was horrific.

Absolutely. I was watching the game in which he got hurt with my kids. Horrible stuff (not so much my kids -- usually). I wish him the very best with his recovery and hope he can work himself all the way back some time this season.

[Jaybee]

After chewing on the Toronto-Boston game a little more, I am starting to think the Raptors have to really like where they are at at this point in the season. Kyrie is a transcendent scorer when he's hot, but if we are extrapolating to May, I don't think that Boston wins a series by counting on Kyrie to go nuclear 4 of 7 times. Still early, small sample size, etc.

Speaking of small sample size, my Jimmy Butler/Philly take above is all kinds of wrong. Let's see what happens when the honeymoon period wears off.

[FlashUNC]

After chewing on the Toronto-Boston game a little more, I am starting to think the Raptors have to really like where they are at at this point in the season. Kyrie is a transcendent scorer when he's hot, but if we are extrapolating to May, I don't think that Boston wins a series by counting on Kyrie to go nuclear 4 of 7 times. Still early, small sample size, etc.

Speaking of small sample size, my Jimmy Butler/Philly take above is all kinds of wrong. Let's see what happens when the honeymoon period wears off.

The Raptors are deep, flexible, and Kawhi continues to be an all-universe wing. Boston's offense continues to look like warmed over poop, and I get April is a long ways away and Stevens is a helluva coach, but to your point the plan right now is watch Kyrie go nuclear and then just wait. Both the Raptors and Bucks have looked more impressive early on.

I am baffled by the move by Philly. You take a guy run out of two towns now, who made KAT look like the last thing he wanted to do was step on a basketball court with the guy, and you introduce him into a locker room with a bunch of other young kids. A locker room, I might add, with the most glaring case of the yips in sport's history.

[Jaybee]

The Raptors are deep, flexible, and Kawhi continues to be an all-universe wing. Boston's offense continues to look like warmed over poop, and I get April is a long ways away and Stevens is a helluva coach, but to your point the plan right now is watch Kyrie go nuclear and then just wait. Both the Raptors and Bucks have looked more impressive early on.

I am baffled by the move by Philly. You take a guy run out of two towns now, who made KAT look like the last thing he wanted to do was step on a basketball court with the guy, and you introduce him into a locker room with a bunch of other young kids. A locker room, I might add, with the most glaring case of the yips in sport's history.

This was/is pretty much my take on it as well. The counter-argument, which I get, is that Jimmy B is a top five 2-way wing*, and those guys aren't just sitting on the shelves at the local Target. You go get one of those when the opportunity arises.

Yeegads is the basketball fit poor though, especially since they moved their 2nd and 3rd best perimeter spot up guys to get him. Simmons-Redick-RoCo-Saric-Embiid just destroyed people last year, and it makes sense from a spacing perspective. Now we've got both Simmons and Butler who need the ball to be effective, Embiid straying further and further from the hoop because the spacing is so bad, Redick licking his lips at how much Philly is going to have to pay to retain him. Fultz just exacerbates the spacing issues. Mike Muscala is getting serious minutes. I'm not sure Moose is a top 7 player on a conference finals team. There has to be another move before the deadline, right?

Moving West, here is the W's last week (h/t to Anthony Slater):

Mon: OT L to Clips, Dray/KD spat
Tues: Dray suspended, narrow win over the tanking Hawks
Wed: News that Curry will be reevaluated in 10 more days
Thur: L to Rockets
Fri: Dray toe-sprain
Sat: L to Mavs
Sun: L to Spurs

If you are a W's hater, hang on to this moment when they sweep the playoffs next summer.


*2-way wings, who are defensive monsters across 3 or more positions, can carry an offense/create for others by themselves: 1A)KD, 1B)Kawhi, 3)PG, 4)Butler 5)Oladipo. LeBron is in his own class by himself. Giannis is apositional.

[FlashUNC]

This was/is pretty much my take on it as well. The counter-argument, which I get, is that Jimmy B is a top five 2-way wing*, and those guys aren't just sitting on the shelves at the local Target. You go get one of those when the opportunity arises.

Yeegads is the basketball fit poor though, especially since they moved their 2nd and 3rd best perimeter spot up guys to get him. Simmons-Redick-RoCo-Saric-Embiid just destroyed people last year, and it makes sense from a spacing perspective. Now we've got both Simmons and Butler who need the ball to be effective, Embiid straying further and further from the hoop because the spacing is so bad, Redick licking his lips at how much Philly is going to have to pay to retain him. Fultz just exacerbates the spacing issues. Mike Muscala is getting serious minutes. I'm not sure Moose is a top 7 player on a conference finals team. There has to be another move before the deadline, right?

Moving West, here is the W's last week (h/t to Anthony Slater):

Mon: OT L to Clips, Dray/KD spat
Tues: Dray suspended, narrow win over the tanking Hawks
Wed: News that Curry will be reevaluated in 10 more days
Thur: L to Rockets
Fri: Dray toe-sprain
Sat: L to Mavs
Sun: L to Spurs

If you are a W's hater, hang on to this moment when they sweep the playoffs next summer.


*2-way wings, who are defensive monsters across 3 or more positions, can carry an offense/create for others by themselves: 1A)KD, 1B)Kawhi, 3)PG, 4)Butler 5)Oladipo. LeBron is in his own class by himself. Giannis is apositional.

I just don't understand a universe where Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler are available during the same summer and you don't make the offer for Leonard, save for being able to lock him down long-term. Which, why in God's name do you want to give Jimmy Butler a max at this point in his career? After two stints of Thibs Philosophy of Rotational Hell via Dante's Inferno.

Its been pretty incredible so far to see the Spurs/Raptors deal work out for both sides. DeRozan is thriving in San Antonio, and Kawhi is his same weird self in Toronto.

[XXtwindad]

I actually like the Philly move. Embiid is much more assertive than KAT. It's also nice to see the East be relevant again.

[Jaybee]

I just don't understand a universe where Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler are available during the same summer and you don't make the offer for Leonard, save for being able to lock him down long-term. Which, why in God's name do you want to give Jimmy Butler a max at this point in his career? After two stints of Thibs Philosophy of Rotational Hell via Dante's Inferno.

Its been pretty incredible so far to see the Spurs/Raptors deal work out for both sides. DeRozan is thriving in San Antonio, and Kawhi is his same weird self in Toronto.

Agreed.

Has their been any reporting on what Philly was putting on the table during the Kawhi talks? Getting another first option scorer for a guy who was definitely on his way out was a coup for the Spurs. Not sure if Philly would/could match that. Having the less-bright Colangelo prominently involved didn't help either.

[Jaybee]

I actually like the Philly move. Embiid is much more assertive than KAT. It's also nice to see the East be relevant again.

I'm not worried about Embiid. That dude has plenty of self-confidence. I am worried about Simmons, who has zero idea what to do on a basketball court off the ball and Fultz, who is teetering on the edge of bust and was last seen pump faking free throws.

The East is weird. Per 538, the East will end up with four 50+ win teams, one team just above .500, then 3 teams at .500 or worse in the playoffs. The Wizards (!) are the 6 seed. League-wide Top 16 Bracket for the playoffs today, please.

This is better than knowing it's LeBron vs. GSW every year though.

[XXtwindad]

I'm not worried about Embiid. That dude has plenty of self-confidence. I am worried about Simmons, who has zero idea what to do on a basketball court off the ball and Fultz, who is teetering on the edge of bust and was last seen pump faking free throws.

The East is weird. Per 538, the East will end up with four 50+ win teams, one team just above .500, then 3 teams at .500 or worse in the playoffs. The Wizards (!) are the 6 seed. League-wide Top 16 Bracket for the playoffs today, please.

This is better than knowing it's LeBron vs. GSW every year though.

I'd give anything to hear one of the TNT announcers refer to an NBA team as a "fetid corpse of a franchise."

[FlashUNC]

Agreed.

Has their been any reporting on what Philly was putting on the table during the Kawhi talks? Getting another first option scorer for a guy who was definitely on his way out was a coup for the Spurs. Not sure if Philly would/could match that. Having the less-bright Colangelo prominently involved didn't help either.

Colangelo's been gone since his burner account tweet gate. This was all ownership and, gulp, GM Elton Brand.

A league-wide Top 16 won't happen any time soon, not when there's playoff revenue to be made in the Eastern conference as a middling team that wouldn't sniff the top of the team in an All-16 tournament.

Simmons I'm concerned his development is less Baby LeBron and more Rondo on Racehorse Growth Hormone, but much of his issues would be solved by being confident/able to shoot the ball outside 10 feet.

Jimmy Butler's resume of "rubbing the people the wrong way" is a pretty long list at this point. I dunno if sticking him in a locker room with a 7'2" embodiment of a social media troll come to life is the best way to foster team unity. Who knows, they could be the greatest Hater tandem ever after Statler and Waldorf, but two teams now couldn't ship Jimmy Butler outta town fast enough.

[Jaybee]

Colangelo's been gone since his burner account tweet gate. This was all ownership and, gulp, GM Elton Brand.

A league-wide Top 16 won't happen any time soon, not when there's playoff revenue to be made in the Eastern conference as a middling team that wouldn't sniff the top of the team in an All-16 tournament.

Simmons I'm concerned his development is less Baby LeBron and more Rondo on Racehorse Growth Hormone, but much of his issues would be solved by being confident/able to shoot the ball outside 10 feet.

Jimmy Butler's resume of "rubbing the people the wrong way" is a pretty long list at this point. I dunno if sticking him in a locker room with a 7'2" embodiment of a social media troll come to life is the best way to foster team unity. Who knows, they could be the greatest Hater tandem ever after Statler and Waldorf, but two teams now couldn't ship Jimmy Butler outta town fast enough.

You're right. Colangelo left in early June, and the Kawhi negotiations really ramped up at the end of June. So this one is on Brand.

I know Top-16 won't happen in my lifetime. But can't a guy dream of hoping for some Twolves or Clips friskiness instead of another Kemba 4-23 in May?

With you on Jimmy B as a ****ty coworker. GMs, even smart ones, almost always go for talent and worry about fit later. You'd think all that W's/Spurs character/culture stuff would have percolated throughout the league by now.

[XXtwindad]

You're right. Colangelo left in early June, and the Kawhi negotiations really ramped up at the end of June. So this one is on Brand.

I know Top-16 won't happen in my lifetime. But can't a guy dream of hoping for some Twolves or Clips friskiness instead of another Kemba 4-23 in May?

With you on Jimmy B as a ****ty coworker. GMs, even smart ones, almost always go for talent and worry about fit later. You'd think all that W's/Spurs character/culture stuff would have percolated throughout the league by now.

And now, your starting center... Todd Fuller!

[Jaybee]

I'd give anything to hear one of the TNT announcers refer to an NBA team as a "fetid corpse of a franchise."

Ha. Barkley has the least effective filter, but that's not really his vernacular.
Speaking of fetid corpses, apparently the Wiz are quietly shopping Wall and/or Beal.

Would love to see Beal on any number of Western contenders, including OKC, LAL and HOU.

[XXtwindad]

Scrolling through the "MVP" thread, and most of my Paceline Brethren we're hovering like moths over the celebrity flame of Curry, Lebron, KD, and Embiid.

Meanwhile, the Denver Nuggets are leading the Western Conference. They just best team in the NBA, the Toronto Raptors. Nikola Jokic went for 23, 11, and 15 as in ASSISTS.

But his unique arsenal of offensive skills went virtually unheralded here at the Forum. I say virtually :

Originally Posted by XXtwindad View Post
Don't really have any guesses about the MVP. Although, no one seems to have mentioned Jokic (unless I missed it)
ahem

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomforeal View Post
i might also put money on jokic at 100-1. if he plays this year like he did on the back 9 of last season he'll deserve to be considered

I'm willing to give Boom 20% of the cut :)

[Jaybee]

...

Jimmy Butler's resume of "rubbing the people the wrong way" is a pretty long list at this point. I dunno if sticking him in a locker room with a 7'2" embodiment of a social media troll come to life is the best way to foster team unity. Who knows, they could be the greatest Hater tandem ever after Statler and Waldorf, but two teams now couldn't ship Jimmy Butler outta town fast enough.

So here's exhibit 359 (https://deadspin.com/jimmy-butler-i-pooped-on-my-timberwolves-teammates-eve-1831029740) that Jimmy Butler is kind of an asshole coworker.


Coincidental, totally not related: "I have migraines and diarrhea" (https://deadspin.com/joel-embiid-who-has-a-migraine-and-diarrhea-i-have-a-1831014589)

[Jaybee]

Toronto, without their best player, on night 2 of a back-to-back, goes into Oracle and lays a statement beatdown on full strength* GSW?

Are we thinking that GSW just don't even care until May? Symptoms of the Durant FA malaise that they insist is old news but is going to be an issue until he signs (there or elsewhere) this summer? Legitimate personnel issues? It sounds odd to say, but outside of their 3 amazing shooters, they actually don't have any shooting waiting on the bench. They also don't have a starter level NBA center outside of Draymond. I mean, Greg Monroe of all people was doing work last night.

Thoughts?



*C'mon, we all know Iggy is only here for June.

[XXtwindad]

[QUOTE=Jaybee;2469002]Toronto, without their best player, on night 2 of a back-to-back, goes into Oracle and lays a statement beatdown on full strength* GSW?

Are we thinking that GSW just don't even care until May? Symptoms of the Durant FA malaise that they insist is old news but is going to be an issue until he signs (there or elsewhere) this summer? Legitimate personnel issues? It sounds odd to say, but outside of their 3 amazing shooters, they actually don't have any shooting waiting on the bench. They also don't have a starter level NBA center outside of Draymond. I mean, Greg Monroe of all people was doing work last night.

Thoughts?

A funny thing happened to my hometown team on their way to a 3-Peat. I stopped caring about them. When Festus was their "5" they still had their "upstart" charm. All of the starters were home grown. Now, they've become like the Yankees in Steinbrenner's heyday. I'm happy to see them get the occasional beat down.

[joosttx]

[QUOTE=Jaybee;2469002]Toronto, without their best player, on night 2 of a back-to-back, goes into Oracle and lays a statement beatdown on full strength* GSW?

Are we thinking that GSW just don't even care until May?

Thoughts?



Yes.

[jtakeda]

Yes.

I think they got lazy once they saw Kawhi was out.

Also—cousins will be back very soon

[Jaybee]

I think they got lazy once they saw Kawhi was out.

Also—cousins will be back very soon

This is a good point. Cousins has never been a good defensive post (largely effort based), but he will definitely help there. I still think there is a clear lack of shooting outside of Klay/Steph/KD, which is related to the bench units being pretty bad. I guess this gets mitigated in the playoffs because those guys all play 38+minutes.

[FlashUNC]

These first three months of the season have already been fraught with more drama than the last three years in Dubville.

Draymond is shaking the rust off, so is Steph. And yeah, the regular season apathy with this bunch is real.

But the Draymond/Durant schism is real. The losing streak was real. Steve Kerr's public exasperation and frustration is real.

I dunno, just the feeling we've seen the peak for this bunch and the band's going to be breaking up more out of malaise and a series of small annoyances than any great fallout or collapse.

Can they find another gear when it matters? Probably. But a team of deep, rangy, athletic, switching wings with an all-time defender like Kawhi leading the charge? I dunno. They were a tweaked Chris Paul hamstring away from going home in last year's WCF.

[Bob Ross]

I still think there is a clear lack of shooting outside of Klay/Steph/KD, which is related to the bench units being pretty bad.

This is quite possibly the first year I've ever paid attention to early season basketball. (I historically have ignored the first 5 or 6 months of the season and then get totally obsessed after the All-Star break.) So watching the Warriors these last couple months has seemed very strange for me, specifically because guys that I'd come to really enjoy watching due to their journeyman approach -- Iguodala and Livingston especially -- appear to suck.

Do they historically get better as the season progresses, or are their skills on the decline? I honestly can't recall the last time I saw Iggy put the ball in the net! ...unless it was last season?

[Jaybee]

Both? Iggy and Livingston are ooooold. So skills on the decline, and they also pick and choose their spots to actually put out effort.


While I'm not sure I completely buy that last night specifically was just not GAF (they seemed to care a lot earlier this week about putting the Bucks in their place after a previous beatdown - I have to think they felt the same about losing a close one in Toronto), it is pretty clear that GS regards the entire regular season as experimental prelude.

[xnetter]

GS definitely does not look happy. Klay looked very frustrated and mopey out there during that Raps bum-lashing the other day. If they were simply taking it easy and saving up the watts for when it counts later in the season, you'd think their facial expressions would convey that blase attitude.

KJ


Both? Iggy and Livingston are ooooold. So skills on the decline, and they also pick and choose their spots to actually put out effort.


While I'm not sure I completely buy that last night specifically was just not GAF (they seemed to care a lot earlier this week about putting the Bucks in their place after a previous beatdown - I have to think they felt the same about losing a close one in Toronto), it is pretty clear that GS regards the entire regular season as experimental prelude.

[XXtwindad]

Saw a play a few nights ago that won't make it into the highlight reels or box scores. But it was one of the best "plays" I've seen in a long time.

Steven Adams (the OKC center) was down low in the post. He was fed the dime, and with nobody around him, was about to rise up for an uncontested bucket. Out of nowhere, Mason Plumlee, the Denver PF, in a desperate and ill-advised attempt to block the shot, flings himself over Adams, landing on his back.

Adams is in the process of elevating. Plumlee is en route to a potentially very nasty header. Recognizing this, even though a quick bucket (in a very tight game) is within reach, Adams changes course, and tries to prevent Plumlee from taking a hard spill.

It's called sportsmanship. Really classy move. I've just become a Steven Adams fan. This is the same reason, by the way, that I never, ever, rooted against Tim Duncan.

My 2 cents ...

[Jaybee]

That play probably prevented Plumlee from a head injury. He was rubber side up with no way to cushion his fall when Adams grabbed him.

Adams is a great dude. Hilarious interviews, does a ton for the community in OKC, and though he'd be well suited for an enforcer role, I've never seen him do anything other than calm everyone down.


The Nuggets, by the way, are looking a little spicy. Wins over OKC and the Raps (minus Siakam, but still) in the last week. They seem to have crafted a competent defense around Nikola Jokic, which I thought was impossible (and watching that dude play, I still don't get. He is always in the wrong spot). Not sure who their star bucket-getter is in Q4 of a tight playoff game (Murray, I guess? Jokic will pass people open?), but they have a solid top 8.

[XXtwindad]

That play probably prevented Plumlee from a head injury. He was rubber side up with no way to cushion his fall when Adams grabbed him.

Adams is a great dude. Hilarious interviews, does a ton for the community in OKC, and though he'd be well suited for an enforcer role, I've never seen him do anything other than calm everyone down.


The Nuggets, by the way, are looking a little spicy. Wins over OKC and the Raps (minus Siakam, but still) in the last week. They seem to have crafted a competent defense around Nikola Jokic, which I thought was impossible (and watching that dude play, I still don't get. He is always in the wrong spot). Not sure who their star bucket-getter is in Q4 of a tight playoff game (Murray, I guess? Jokic will pass people open?), but they have a solid top 8.

The Nuggets have usurped the Dubs status as "most fun to watch." With Jokic distributing to Murray, Morris, etc really entertaining...

[xnetter]

The Nuggets, by the way, are looking a little spicy. Wins over OKC and the Raps (minus Siakam and Lowry and Valanciunas and Van Vleet, but still) in the last week..

Fixed that for you :p

[bigman]

Nets

[Jaybee]

Nets

What about the Nets?


So... James Harden step-back-step-back (https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1074871763115356160). Infuriating or hilarious? I would have gone with the former last year, but now I just appreciate the man as performance art.

[XXtwindad]

Not sure how much credence to ascribe to a December game, but the Dubs just got their sh** handed to them on their home court by the Lakers. Lost by 27. And this was without Lebron for the majority if the second half.

Rondo was dealing like a maestro, Kuzma was going off from everywhere, and some kid named Zubac was chewing the Dubs up in the paint.

[harlond]

Maybe what they need is for Steph to spend a year trying to get his PGA tour card, realize that won’t fly, and then come back, ready to lead them to a couple more rings.

[donevwil]

Not sure how much credence to ascribe to a December game, but the Dubs just got their sh** handed to them on their home court by the Lakers. Lost by 27. And this was without Lebron for the majority if the second half.

Rondo was dealing like a maestro, Kuzma was going off from everywhere, and some kid named Zubac was chewing the Dubs up in the paint.

Klay is stressing his next contract, Draymond must still be injured and the bench, being what it is with a few exceptions, are playing terribly yet they're still 23-12 and have a few months before games even matter.

The life of a championship team, granted they better stay/get healthy and be able to turn it on when they need it. Jury is still out on that.

[Jaybee]

The Ws are either more collectively disinterested or more vulnerable than they have ever been in the Kerr era. We won't know the actual answer to that until April, but this Draymond thing is becoming a real actual basketball problem for them.
Having to guard Dray on the perimeter is the (not so) secret sauce that makes everything work. That means you can't leave him to double the ball, and the Ws can't be guarded man to man with a traditional lineup. But... if you are comfortable leaving him all alone out there, and he can't make you pay, then he's just an undersized 5. Feel free to play your traditional big and make the Ws pay on the offensive glass or in the post.

[FlashUNC]

When Draymond is shooting 20% from 3 and getting what the Lakers were showing yesterday, and Klay is playing with all the enthusiasm of someone going in to traffic court, it's clear there's some real issues here. Never mind the very real specter that Durant walks this summer. Yes, they've got months to work it out, but this looks like a team in a depths of a very real malaise.

Gonna be a fascinating few months in the East Bay.

[XXtwindad]

I think there's going to be a real "Bogut nostalgia" very soon in Dub Land...

[XXtwindad]

Mid Season Picks:

MVP 1) Antetokounmpo
2) Jokic
3) Harden
4) Leonard
5) Westbrook

ROY: Doncic

[joosttx]

When Draymond is shooting 20% from 3 and getting what the Lakers were showing yesterday, and Klay is playing with all the enthusiasm of someone going in to traffic court, it's clear there's some real issues here. Never mind the very real specter that Durant walks this summer. Yes, they've got months to work it out, but this looks like a team in a depths of a very real malaise.

Gonna be a fascinating few months in the East Bay.

going to the Houston vs Warriors game in a month. They better get their house in order before I show up.... :)

[XXtwindad]

Just got done reading Bruce Jenkins from the SF Chronicle (a writer I like a lot) He took Durant to task for equivocating on where he'd like to play next season, saying he wants to "play basketball and stack money."

Kudos to Durant. Basketball (like all sports) is a business. He's just being honest.

[Jaybee]

Mid Season Picks:

MVP 1) Antetokounmpo
2) Jokic
3) Harden
4) Leonard
5) Westbrook

ROY: Doncic

Westbrook hasn't even been the best player on his own team this year. And Harden is a clear 2 in my eyes, with Jokic/Davis/Kawhi/PG in the 3rd tier.

Boogie Cousins comes back on Friday. An achilles injury is a real issue for basketball, and the history of coming back from that (it usually takes a full season) suggests that it might be premature to suggest he is ready to just slot in as his normal All-Star level self. I'm not sure he will be markedly better then Looney/Bell/Dray at the 5, but they may not need that.

I'm cashing in my tickets for the Raps bandwagon that I bought preseason. They are clearly the best team in the East and present a solid matchup for whoever comes out of the West.

Anyone buying the Nuggets as an actual contender yet?

[FlashUNC]

Westbrook hasn't even been the best player on his own team this year. And Harden is a clear 2 in my eyes, with Jokic/Davis/Kawhi/PG in the 3rd tier.

Boogie Cousins comes back on Friday. An achilles injury is a real issue for basketball, and the history of coming back from that (it usually takes a full season) suggests that it might be premature to suggest he is ready to just slot in as his normal All-Star level self. I'm not sure he will be markedly better then Looney/Bell/Dray at the 5, but they may not need that.

I'm cashing in my tickets for the Raps bandwagon that I bought preseason. They are clearly the best team in the East and present a solid matchup for whoever comes out of the West.

Anyone buying the Nuggets as an actual contender yet?

The Nuggets have stayed afloat despite injuries in a still-brutal West and Jamal Murray going through wayyy more up and down stretches. Jokic has taken things to a Sabonis in his prime level.

If they're sliding into the All Star break where they are, you've gotta think they're for real. How they hold up in a seven game series? I dunno. The big unknown is whether Golden State will turn it on the playoffs, or if there's something starting to break there.

[Jaybee]

Anyone buying the Nuggets as an actual contender yet?

Well OK then. (http://www.espn.com/nba/game?gameId=401071331)

[XXtwindad]

Well OK then. (http://www.espn.com/nba/game?gameId=401071331)

First quarter was like a video game. Nuggets scored 38 and were down by 13. Unreal.

[Jaybee]

Usually 45/42/82 shooting splits and 111 points gets you a solid 10-15 point win. Not a 30 point beatdown.

[XXtwindad]

Usually 45/42/82 shooting splits and 111 points gets you a solid 10-15 point win. Not a 30 point beatdown.

Friday is the big test. Cousins against the Clips. I'm pulling for the guy. I think he's got a touch of the 'Answer' in him: scorned by the mainstream media and beloved by his community and teammates. (Probably not to the extent Iverson was adored by his teammates...)

[sfo1]

This will be a two-three month project to find their groove with him on the floor (or not, and he sits in the post season). Keep in mind his injury; at his size not a lot of guys come back to 60% of old self. If we get 60% of old player, its a win.

Friday is the big test. Cousins against the Clips

[Jaybee]

Worth a minute of your life:

Steph Curry catching fire (https://youtu.be/ttvtPnJGJDE) and flipping the game on the Pels last night.

[XXtwindad]

There is an antecedent for the Dubs sucessful blueprint. The similarities are almost eerie: an undersized PG (and back to back MVP) with surreal artistry, a front court of athletic and undersized big men and wings who could score at will from all over the place.

This was the "Seven Seconds or Less" Phoenix Suns of the mid-Aughts. Nash was a creative genius. Stoudemire could jump through the roof. Marion was Draymond Green, and I would argue, even better defensively. (Although not as skilled a passer) Diaw and Barbosa (considered the fastest player in the NBA in his prime) could fill the bucket up quickly.

So how come they never won a championship? The reason is obvious: they ran smack dab into the Spurs at the height of their Tim Duncan Dynasty.

When did the Warriors face such a cohesive, talented team en route to their championships? The answer, unfortunately, is never. As a fellow Forumite recently opined, the Cavs were a "fetid corpse" of a franchise dragged from the depths of mediocrity by the greatness of Lebron James.

In fact, I'll argue that there have been only three great "teams" over the past twenty years, with the salient characteristics being a recognized leader, an obvious chemistry, a blueprint for success, and a championship: the 2003-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the Warriors.

As a Dubs fan since the heyday of Run TMC (favorite play from those days: Rooney putting his head down and going to the hole) I hope someone can challenge the Dubs in a meaningful way. If Cousins comes back and is capable of going 15-8-3, then I think it's realistically game over. If not, I think there's two teams that could challenge.

I think the Bucks, Nuggets, and Sixers are still too callow. Giannis might be the best player in the league, Jokic is an offensive genius, and the "Ben and Joel" show have at least one championship in their future. Just not now.

I disagree with Jaybee about the Raptors. I think that, in order to beat the Warriors, you need a solid "old-school" defensive presence (like Duncan or Wallace) in the middle. I just don't see that from Valunciunas.

IMO, that leaves the Thunder and Celts.

Steven Adams is just a beast. He doesn't shoot the three like the "New Age" centers, but he could do some real damage to the Dubs inside. I love the guy. Interesting article on him here: https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25779289/steven-adams-nba-world-strongest-man%3fplatform=amp
Paul George is a strong contender for the MVP, defensive genius Andre Roberson is coming off the DL, and then there's the King of the Triple Doubles: Westbrook. If Westbrook goes 13 for 30, OKC is sunk. But if he goes for 20-25 with over a dozen assists, and resists playing "hero ball," I think OKC can give the Dubs problems.

In the East, you have to wonder, *** is going on with the Celts? They have a very skilled center (the criminally underrated Horford) and seven guys who could easily score 20 points a game, including ... Kyrie Irving. And perhaps there's the problem. Off the top of my head, there are three players I would pay to watch: Curry, Westbrook, and Irving. Irving has a sh*tload of talent around him. Why aren't the Celts kicking ass all over the place? Perhaps its because Irving hasn't harnessed his considerable skills to the betterment of his team. If he can learn how to do that (quickly) I'd say the Celts would be fantastic matchup for the Dubs.

I hope, as hoops fan first and foremost, that it happens. Much better for the NBA, and a truer litmus test for the Dubs' legacy.

[Bob Ross]

^^^Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[XXtwindad]

^^^Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

:)

[Jaybee]

I am, nominally, a Thunder fan from some time I spent in OKC a couple years ago. As such, it pains me to say this, but they aren't a threat to the W's.

They still have (despite giving up 130+ in 4 of the last 5 games) the league's best defense, a defense that would presumably only get better with the addition of Roberson (though who knows when that's going to happen or if he will still be his all-world self on the defensive end). The D is not the issue - no team (except maybe the Raps) is prepared to switch 1-5 like OKC and I still think there is something to be explored from Jerami Grant at 5 lineups that are ultra-long and bouncy.

The issue is perimeter shooting. Paul George deserves to be in the conversation (crowded though it is) for an all-NBA forward slot. He and Terrance Ferguson are the only rotation players over 35% for 3FG. Alex Abrines is theoretically a spacer who demands defensive attention, but he hasn't played in over a month now. PatPat seems washed, Grant is having a career year, but still doesn't demand respect as a stretch 4. You'd much rather have him taking a three than blowing by you and yamming on your head. Abdel Nader, I guess, has some promise? Check on that again in May. Schroeder is a really good backup PG, and maybe not someone who should be on the floor in a tight playoff game.

And all that brings us to the elephant in the room - Russ. God knows I love him, but he is historically bad at 3FG for the volume he shoots. Literally the worst in history. He's never been great, but he has reached serviceable, which is fine when you have his ability to get into the lane. This year, even his normally reliable FT line pullup has abandoned him, he's shooting career lows at the rim, and a career 80+% FT shooter can't even hit a FT. Defense's are giving him the Tony Allen treatment. He's had one knee surgery before this season and a serious ankle sprain during it, so maybe there's some lingering there, but it's hard to avoid the fact that he is a 30 year-old PG who relies almost exclusively on athleticism. The track record there is... not great?

Ultimately, there are just too many non-shooters in their best 8 players to hide against a playoff level defense. PG is going to have 3 dudes on him while everyone else dares TFerg and Russ to beat them from deep. I know this is true because Luke Walton explicitly mentioned it in a between quarter interview last night.

On top of all that, they have a really rough stretch of 20 or so games coming up, almost all against top 5 seeds in either conference.

So anyway, if you read all that, the point is this: Thunder... nah.

[Jaybee]

So I guess I'm not quite sure what "an old school defensive presence in the middle" does for you against the W's? Their best lineup is specifically predicated on the fact that if your center can't switch and at least get a hand in Curry/KD/Klay's face after they come off a Draymond screen 28 feet from the basket, then the game is effectively over. The list of 5's that can do that is really short - Capela's ability to do that helped push the WCF to 7 last year. Ibaka, Miles Turner, Capela, Davis, Horford is kinda the list of true 5's that can do that. Adams can kind of do it against teams who are not the Rox or W's. Really good defensive centers like Gobert and Embiid who don't like to get much above the foul line just get roasted. Most teams just punt and go small.

Anyway, this is why I'm buying the Raps. Valanciunus and Greg Monroe will see next to zero burn in a hypothetical Dubs series. You'll see a bunch of Ibaka at the five, and their rarely used but awesome over limited sample size Siakam at the 5. They are one of the few teams in the league that can put a 5 man lineup on the floor with no defensive weak spots and no shooting holes.

[XXtwindad]

The Dubs have had 14 losses this year. I'd argue that only four of them have come against teams with non-traditional centers: the Nuggets with the wizardry of Jokic, the Bucks with Giannis and up tempo system to match the Dubs, and the Raptors with an Ibaka/Siakam combo.

The rest of the losses have come against teams with traditional centers who are anchored (more often than not) to the post. Including Zubac (?) from the Lakers who ate the Dubs up in the paint, going nine of ten from the field, and finishing with 18 and 11. I'd never heard of him until the night he smacked the Warriors around...

[XXtwindad]

Cousins went for 14 and 6. In fifteen minutes. Shot a few threes, showed a nice spin move under the basket, and tussled with Gortat. I'm happy for the guy. Is it good for the NBA? I don't think so. Would the "Showtime" Lakers have such a vaunted legacy if it weren't for the Celts? Or vice versa?

I really hope Kyrie Irving remembers that there's a "P" in front of the "G" in his position and not an "S." If that happens, I think there's a chance of a good series...

[Jaybee]

Will your team trade for Anthony Davis?

No. (https://deadspin.com/why-your-dumb-team-wont-trade-for-anthony-davis-1832161226)

[Bob Ross]

Will your team trade for Anthony Davis?

No. (https://deadspin.com/why-your-dumb-team-wont-trade-for-anthony-davis-1832161226)

omigod that was hysterical! Thanks.

This line made me pass coffee through my nose:

"if the Lakers don’t get Davis—if they miss the last best chance they’ll ever have to pair a still-great LeBron with that good of a teammate—it will be because Magic Johnson fell for the hype surrounding a tryhard third guard with a broken jumpshot whose dad suckered everyone into believing he was Steph Kidd."

[Jaybee]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V6hsub9Gp1hwNIYXqy77KaY5-vfeVxtn9s8ATep7XVUuWvu7dV48sVMJL6LPf5ZZLaWWhoQUmfd xUhI_F8i1ViqwWPwvQ6lmObqB6lF9PFprjgGfSqWxA2BHf1s5l Mi-Xb2X-aWBxWiGnyMKNMrm2H7nDHlUwUL3_xFtm3BLHLciIkKKDm2Fpmj lqheuX8PQ1AkYBt2EW1qgD1V7G73Z0KoyCacgCiJ1fVoonz7fe-YzQsSfbHRKJk3cOx_Dsqe5V-DrmFyKZahJH3eAk8wxKRfy3jmn5ZW2otvt4ix3_LxfHd984Ssj-pWzSG6pSQfYpfdz6ct5kac1yyCz4CnpZ1rp58rmbKHiRXKsjrJ GJ3HuKZEDJIK3csuKCkcfogAxpGkcY2EOoEIMMcRBVXTQ69DJJ X76AFiBONsvtW_-U_6FnBJ-d6uF1S81AZLMfezQih5tyWpAy5dHwnFPFha0WRTqsuFOx6HXnt oJwEvWmOs7MpM5xchlFfwprBw0ptJxaTIVT5bQiH3FZsk8Qsh9 QTHbnVW8BU-oJZVDMRPDUxI49iEm8NPGWaEHQ8DtJ_rThz4JpRUdPf4xnIjY3 rQi3rFpc7kJ8jIT8JxG0IPKCQAwjC5LuH-yOckwzFl1PC_hu1JGSrG7UC0lUa3er24aopZz=w1008-h568-no

What do you even do here? Best shooter in league history is coming around a screen with a clean look, screener's defender can't drop any further. Bell is rolling to the basket, and Myles Turner (guarding Boogie) should probably tag him, but Boogie is a career 37% shooter on 3's above the break. Maybe Turner can stay and a wing defender can take the roller, but then your options are leave KD open in the corner or leave Klay open in the corner.

Unguardable.

[XXtwindad]

Will your team trade for Anthony Davis?

No. (https://deadspin.com/why-your-dumb-team-wont-trade-for-anthony-davis-1832161226)

Read this. Evidently he feels LA and GS are the only ones with a shot. Not sure that "hero" ball wins games. Decimating a roster for one player doesn't make sense. Ball and Kuzma and someone else for Davis? I wouldn't do it.

[Jaybee]

Read this. Evidently he feels LA and GS are the only ones with a shot. Not sure that "hero" ball wins games. Decimating a roster for one player doesn't make sense. Ball and Kuzma and someone else for Davis? I wouldn't do it.

First, anything Burneko writes is tongue-in-cheek, but to the larger point, LeBron and AD have the same agent, and clearly LeBron has decided he needs another all-star to compete. The Lakers will have cap space for another max free agent if they can wait until July. The history of the NBA says you need multiple top 15 players to win a title. The rare exceptions like the Nowitzki Mavs prove the rule.

NOP absolutely needs to wait until July if they can to pull Boston into the mix. Then the question is "would Boston give up Tatum for a possible 1 yr rental of the best big in basketball.". This would force every other team to up their offers. Boston clearly has the best asset collection. None of LALs prospects excite me.

In related news Howard Beck had a nice theory on the Zach Lowe podcast about how the NBA's success has neutered the supermax, and I think he is right.

[Jaybee]

Knicks...

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

[FlashUNC]

First, anything Burneko writes is tongue-in-cheek, but to the larger point, LeBron and AD have the same agent, and clearly LeBron has decided he needs another all-star to compete. The Lakers will have cap space for another max free agent if they can wait until July. The history of the NBA says you need multiple top 15 players to win a title. The rare exceptions like the Nowitzki Mavs prove the rule.

NOP absolutely needs to wait until July if they can to pull Boston into the mix. Then the question is "would Boston give up Tatum for a possible 1 yr rental of the best big in basketball.". This would force every other team to up their offers. Boston clearly has the best asset collection. None of LALs prospects excite me.

In related news Howard Beck had a nice theory on the Zach Lowe podcast about how the NBA's success has neutered the supermax, and I think he is right.

Lowe and Woj had a solid recap today pointing out that, like the Spurs with Kawhi, the Pellies are in no rush to kowtow to the Lakers on this, especially with the Saints' Mickey Loomis having the ultimate personnel say on this one and his NFL approach to this negotiation.

They're willing to let Davis sit a year while they mull their options and if he wants to sign as a free agent in 2020 in LA, he's welcome to do that. But the reality is Boston's offer will demolish anything anyone else can muster between players and picks, with the only hitch being whether they commit now to including Tatum or not. But Boston would need some assurance from the Brow he's not a rental and he's staying. Which is also part of their pitch to get Kyrie to stay and not bolt for New York, now that they've cleared the decks to sign two max deals.

The Lakers kids have slumped together at the worst possible time. Heck, the Lakers probably wish they still had D'Angelo Russell with the way he's playing lately. He'd be far more valuable as a trade chip for Davis than Ball/Kuzma/Hart combined.

[wc1934]

There is an antecedent for the Dubs sucessful blueprint. The similarities are almost eerie: an undersized PG (and back to back MVP) with surreal artistry, a front court of athletic and undersized big men and wings who could score at will from all over the place.

This was the "Seven Seconds or Less" Phoenix Suns of the mid-Aughts. Nash was a creative genius. Stoudemire could jump through the roof. Marion was Draymond Green, and I would argue, even better defensively. (Although not as skilled a passer) Diaw and Barbosa (considered the fastest player in the NBA in his prime) could fill the bucket up quickly.

So how come they never won a championship? The reason is obvious: they ran smack dab into the Spurs at the height of their Tim Duncan Dynasty.

When did the Warriors face such a cohesive, talented team en route to their championships? The answer, unfortunately, is never. As a fellow Forumite recently opined, the Cavs were a "fetid corpse" of a franchise dragged from the depths of mediocrity by the greatness of Lebron James.

In fact, I'll argue that there have been only three great "teams" over the past twenty years, with the salient characteristics being a recognized leader, an obvious chemistry, a blueprint for success, and a championship: the 2003-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the Warriors.

As a Dubs fan since the heyday of Run TMC (favorite play from those days: Rooney putting his head down and going to the hole) I hope someone can challenge the Dubs in a meaningful way. If Cousins comes back and is capable of going 15-8-3, then I think it's realistically game over. If not, I think there's two teams that could challenge.

I think the Bucks, Nuggets, and Sixers are still too callow. Giannis might be the best player in the league, Jokic is an offensive genius, and the "Ben and Joel" show have at least one championship in their future. Just not now.

I disagree with Jaybee about the Raptors. I think that, in order to beat the Warriors, you need a solid "old-school" defensive presence (like Duncan or Wallace) in the middle. I just don't see that from Valunciunas.

IMO, that leaves the Thunder and Celts.

Steven Adams is just a beast. He doesn't shoot the three like the "New Age" centers, but he could do some real damage to the Dubs inside. I love the guy. Interesting article on him here: https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25779289/steven-adams-nba-world-strongest-man%3fplatform=amp
Paul George is a strong contender for the MVP, defensive genius Andre Roberson is coming off the DL, and then there's the King of the Triple Doubles: Westbrook. If Westbrook goes 13 for 30, OKC is sunk. But if he goes for 20-25 with over a dozen assists, and resists playing "hero ball," I think OKC can give the Dubs problems.

In the East, you have to wonder, *** is going on with the Celts? They have a very skilled center (the criminally underrated Horford) and seven guys who could easily score 20 points a game, including ... Kyrie Irving. And perhaps there's the problem. Off the top of my head, there are three players I would pay to watch: Curry, Westbrook, and Irving. Irving has a sh*tload of talent around him. Why aren't the Celts kicking ass all over the place? Perhaps its because Irving hasn't harnessed his considerable skills to the betterment of his team. If he can learn how to do that (quickly) I'd say the Celts would be fantastic matchup for the Dubs.

I hope, as hoops fan first and foremost, that it happens. Much better for the NBA, and a truer litmus test for the Dubs' legacy.

Seem to have gotten their act together - won 7 out of 8 (loss was to the warriors). They have some talent - J Brown can play.

[bfd]

TIf Westbrook goes 13 for 30, OKC is sunk. But if he goes for 20-25 with over a dozen assists, and resists playing "hero ball," I think OKC can give the Dubs problems.

As other have said, in a one game series, e.g., like a SuperBowl, this could work. But can Westbrook go 20 for 25 with a dozen assist and resist playing "hero ball" over a 7 game series?! I don't know. May be someone like Harden, but Westbrook needs to show he can do it.

Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

[XXtwindad]

As other have said, in a one game series, e.g., like a SuperBowl, this could work. But can Westbrook go 20 for 25 with a dozen assist and resist playing "hero ball" over a 7 game series?! I don't know. May be someone like Harden, but Westbrook needs to show he can do it.

Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

On a somewhat related note: I was working out with a buddy tonight, and although I don't know the intricacies of the salary cap/luxury tax, it seems Golden State might have to choice between Durant or Cousins (assuming he's healthy)

We both agreed : Cousins.

[Jaybee]

For 2019, with a cap of $110M, GSW already have $112M committed to Steph, Dray, AI, Livingston, and Klay (assume he resigns). That is without KD opting in to his $31M player option.

Cousins might not be a max player this offseason (though he will be significantly more expensive than the $6.4M he is getting this year), but there's no way they can afford him without getting into the tax ($132M). Unless they ship Dray out and buyout the returning players, or Klay doesn't resign, or KD doesn't opt in.

As for choosing Cousins instead of KD... I'm going to assume you and your buddy were in oxygen debt cause you were crushing it with your workout.

[XXtwindad]

For 2019, with a cap of $110M, GSW already have $112M committed to Steph, Dray, AI, Livingston, and Klay (assume he resigns). That is without KD opting in to his $31M player option.

Cousins might not be a max player this offseason (though he will be significantly more expensive than the $6.4M he is getting this year), but there's no way they can afford him without getting into the tax ($132M). Unless they ship Dray out and buyout the returning players, or Klay doesn't resign, or KD doesn't opt in.

As for choosing Cousins instead of KD... I'm going to assume you and your buddy were in oxygen debt cause you were crushing it with your workout.

If I were a GM drafting a new team, I would take Durant first of the Dubs. I think Cousins is a much better fit for their system. Like having a bigger version of Webber with more range.

I also think Green is more valuable to this team than Durant. Not in general but to THIS team ...

[Jaybee]

Green and Cousins are both really good, but I can't agree with not valuing KD higher, for this or any team.

There are like 5 guys in the NBA who guarantee you a playoff spot as long as you build a mildly competent roster around them. KD is one. Curry is one. Cousins and Green are not.

Last time the W's didn't have KD, they lost in the Finals. And should have lost in the WCF.

[XXtwindad]

Green and Cousins are both really good, but I can't agree with not valuing KD higher, for this or any team.

There are like 5 guys in the NBA who guarantee you a playoff spot as long as you build a mildly competent roster around them. KD is one. Curry is one. Cousins and Green are not.

Last time the W's didn't have KD, they lost in the Finals. And should have lost in the WCF.

And probably lost in 2016 due to the absence of Green.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/amp/If-Kevin-Durant-leaves-Warriors-could-DeMarcus-13403898.php

Thoughts, Flash?

[FlashUNC]

Boogie can't guard a lamp post, or at least shown an ability to do it with any consistency. And the defensive end is where all of this starts for the Warriors.

The only reason the Warriors are the Warriors is Green as an undersized five creates all sorts of mismatch havoc as he can hold his own on the defensive end against traditional 5s, while being able to guard perimeter players. He unlocks their ability to switch across all 5 positions, while keeping the other player's big under constant defensive pressure on the offensive end as the screener for Curry/Durant/Thompson et al. He's a willing passer and decent enough perimeter shooter (at times) that he is a unique piece to this exceedingly unique puzzle. The other is a helluva lot of luck in roster construction, but Dub Nation doesn't exactly want to hear that either these days.

Boogie does a lot of things and a lot of things that Green can't do, but I don't think he's a long-term fit for this team.

Reality is this is the last run for this team as currently constituted. Things are going to change. At least one of the Durant/Thompson/Green trio is departing at some point in the next 18 months. But the team and Boogie have openly stated this is a one-year rehab/ring chasing assignment for him, and a test drive so he can dive back into the market next summer.

The simplest play is keeping the best player of that trio, and that's Durant.

[XXtwindad]

Boogie can't guard a lamp post, or at least shown an ability to do it with any consistency. And the defensive end is where all of this starts for the Warriors.

The only reason the Warriors are the Warriors is Green as an undersized five creates all sorts of mismatch havoc as he can hold his own on the defensive end against traditional 5s, while being able to guard perimeter players. He unlocks their ability to switch across all 5 positions, while keeping the other player's big under constant defensive pressure on the offensive end as the screener for Curry/Durant/Thompson et al. He's a willing passer and decent enough perimeter shooter (at times) that he is a unique piece to this exceedingly unique puzzle. The other is a helluva lot of luck in roster construction, but Dub Nation doesn't exactly want to hear that either these days.

Boogie does a lot of things and a lot of things that Green can't do, but I don't think he's a long-term fit for this team.

Reality is this is the last run for this team as currently constituted. Things are going to change. At least one of the Durant/Thompson/Green trio is departing at some point in the next 18 months. But the team and Boogie have openly stated this is a one-year rehab/ring chasing assignment for him, and a test drive so he can dive back into the market next summer.

The simplest play is keeping the best player of that trio, and that's Durant.

Well, that's two Paceliners whose opinion I respect. We'll see what the Dubs do. Best player of the trio? Yes. Youngest? No :)

[Jaybee]

And probably lost in 2016 due to the absence of Green.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/amp/If-Kevin-Durant-leaves-Warriors-could-DeMarcus-13403898.php

Thoughts, Flash?

Green missed time in the 2016 Finals because he's a volatile asshole - that's part of the cost of having him on your team. And you want to add another volatile asshole to that mix?

FWIW, the article you posted reminded me that this is all moot - the W's can only pay Cousins something like 7.5M next year and he's going to get a 20M offer somewhere. If he kills it in the playoffs and looks like old Boogie, he might even sucker someone (Knicks?) into a max.

Regardless, I can't believe how spoiled W's fans/media have become. We don't need KD because "he doesn't fit in seamlessly" with our no-iso offense?

1) Sometimes, especially in the playoffs, you need a guy to get a bucket by himself. KD is the best person on the planet at this.

2) He fits in just fine. Check the screenshot in post 175. If you replace KD standing in the corner there with say, AI or Livingston or even Quinn Cook, that whole play breaks down because the corner defender is 2 steps closer to the rim. This is an example of why the W's work so well - because they don't have any serious lineups that feature a player you can ignore. Replace KD with, idunno, Justise Winslow, and none of this works.

Finally, center, so long as that guy can play passable defense and rebound, just doesn't really matter in the NBA anymore. Not compared to offensive-fulcrum wings and guards. You can fill that spot in with anyone. Even Zaza Pachulia.

[FlashUNC]

Green missed time in the 2016 Finals because he's a volatile asshole - that's part of the cost of having him on your team. And you want to add another volatile asshole to that mix?

FWIW, the article you posted reminded me that this is all moot - the W's can only pay Cousins something like 7.5M next year and he's going to get a 20M offer somewhere. If he kills it in the playoffs and looks like old Boogie, he might even sucker someone (Knicks?) into a max.

Regardless, I can't believe how spoiled W's fans/media have become. We don't need KD because "he doesn't fit in seamlessly" with our no-iso offense?

1) Sometimes, especially in the playoffs, you need a guy to get a bucket by himself. KD is the best person on the planet at this.

2) He fits in just fine. Check the screenshot in post 175. If you replace KD standing in the corner there with say, AI or Livingston or even Quinn Cook, that whole play breaks down because the corner defender is 2 steps closer to the rim. This is an example of why the W's work so well - because they don't have any serious lineups that feature a player you can ignore. Replace KD with, idunno, Justise Winslow, and none of this works.

Finally, center, so long as that guy can play passable defense and rebound, just doesn't really matter in the NBA anymore. Not compared to offensive-fulcrum wings and guards. You can fill that spot in with anyone. Even Zaza Pachulia.

Hey now, let's not besmirch my second favorite player in NBA history, Zaza "Nothing Easy" Pachulia.

And to your point, the Warriors got Durant precisely because they ran into that exact issue in the playoffs during the 3-1 collapse. There were times they needed a guy to get a bucket, and it wasn't going to be Harrison Barnes. He's the Monstars/Space Jam version of Harrison Barnes, which is why he was such a logical fit into their overall scheme. Anyone in the Bay who thinks they don't need Kevin is somewhat right -- this team already won a title and won 73 games without him -- but the playoffs are a different animal sometimes and he's the great Cheat Code button to a lot of those matchups that emerge in a seven game series.

You could scheme against Klay/Steph/Harrison. You can't against Klay/Steph/Durant.

[Jaybee]

Hey now, let's not besmirch my second favorite player in NBA history, Zaza "Nothing Easy" Pachulia.



Heh. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xQen-wUQg0)

[FlashUNC]

Heh. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xQen-wUQg0)

Zaza was, and remains, a treasure and should be enshrined in basketball immortality. His post-Game 6 speech to the Philips Arena crowd during a surprisingly feisty Hawks/Celtics series in 2008 was one for the ages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ70BkPkANM

[XXtwindad]

Green missed time in the 2016 Finals because he's a volatile asshole - that's part of the cost of having him on your team. And you want to add another volatile asshole to that mix?

FWIW, the article you posted reminded me that this is all moot - the W's can only pay Cousins something like 7.5M next year and he's going to get a 20M offer somewhere. If he kills it in the playoffs and looks like old Boogie, he might even sucker someone (Knicks?) into a max.

Regardless, I can't believe how spoiled W's fans/media have become. We don't need KD because "he doesn't fit in seamlessly" with our no-iso offense?

1) Sometimes, especially in the playoffs, you need a guy to get a bucket by himself. KD is the best person on the planet at this.

2) He fits in just fine. Check the screenshot in post 175. If you replace KD standing in the corner there with say, AI or Livingston or even Quinn Cook, that whole play breaks down because the corner defender is 2 steps closer to the rim. This is an example of why the W's work so well - because they don't have any serious lineups that feature a player you can ignore. Replace KD with, idunno, Justise Winslow, and none of this works.

Finally, center, so long as that guy can play passable defense and rebound, just doesn't really matter in the NBA anymore. Not compared to offensive-fulcrum wings and guards. You can fill that spot in with anyone. Even Zaza Pachulia.

From the Chron sportswriter today after Embiid thrashed the Dubs inside :

"Embiid especially asserted himself when Cousins rested and Kevon Looney replaced him at center. Looney simply isn’t big enough to stop Embiid."


E

[FlashUNC]

From the Chron sportswriter today after Embiid thrashed the Dubs inside :

"Embiid especially asserted himself when Cousins rested and Kevon Looney replaced him at center. Looney simply isn’t big enough to stop Embiid."


E

If the last two years have proven anything, there's not really anyone who can stop Embiid on the block when he gets it going.

[XXtwindad]

Zaza was, and remains, a treasure and should be enshrined in basketball immortality. His post-Game 6 speech to the Philips Arena crowd during a surprisingly feisty Hawks/Celtics series in 2008 was one for the ages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ70BkPkANM

Who's your first favorite player? Fond memories of Zaza as well. Back in '05, I had a buddy who was really into video games. I never was. He used Pachulia (I'd never heard of him) to destroy the Spurs team that I was running. (With my favorite player...Tim Duncan)

Only time Pachulia racked up 40 and 15...

[FlashUNC]

Who's your first favorite player? Fond memories of Zaza as well. Back in '05, I had a buddy who was really into video games. I never was. He used Pachulia (I'd never heard of him) to destroy the Spurs team that I was running. (With my favorite player...Tim Duncan)

Only time Pachulia racked up 40 and 15...

Rasheed Wallace, obviously.

[XXtwindad]

Of course :)

[Jaybee]

Thoughts on the Knicks/Mavs trade?

I'm a little less sour on it than I was last night for the Knicks, but they are pretty all-in on drawing 2 move-the-needle free agents this summer. Gonna be hilarious when that's Tobias Harris and Goran Dragic instead of KD and Kyrie.

I think the Mavs did well to move a slightly awkward basketball/personal situation and establish themselves as the destination for international players.
Not sure what their next move is to vault into the Rockets/Thunder/Nuggets tier, but I appreciate their willingness to go for it.


And where is AD going? I just don't see the Lakers having the juice to get it done.

Any other wild predictions before the trade deadline? Brad Beal maybe?

[XXtwindad]

Thoughts on the Knicks/Mavs trade?

I'm a little less sour on it than I was last night for the Knicks, but they are pretty all-in on drawing 2 move-the-needle free agents this summer. Gonna be hilarious when that's Tobias Harris and Goran Dragic instead of KD and Kyrie.

I think the Mavs did well to move a slightly awkward basketball/personal situation and establish themselves as the destination for international players.
Not sure what their next move is to vault into the Rockets/Thunder/Nuggets tier, but I appreciate their willingness to go for it.


And where is AD going? I just don't see the Lakers having the juice to get it done.

Any other wild predictions before the trade deadline? Brad Beal maybe?

If you can overlook the Dolan years have been an utter travesty, (Eddy Curry anyone?) than I think the Knicks came out OK. By your definition of a "5" who can rebound and defend, Jordan is one of the best in the NBA. If not the best. Still wonder he's tradebait...

[Ozz]

I am, nominally, a Thunder fan....

"eff" the Thunder, "eff" Clay Bennett and "eff" Howard Schultz....

regards,

Seattle SuperSonics fan.....:cool:

;)

[FlashUNC]

Thoughts on the Knicks/Mavs trade?

I'm a little less sour on it than I was last night for the Knicks, but they are pretty all-in on drawing 2 move-the-needle free agents this summer. Gonna be hilarious when that's Tobias Harris and Goran Dragic instead of KD and Kyrie.

I think the Mavs did well to move a slightly awkward basketball/personal situation and establish themselves as the destination for international players.
Not sure what their next move is to vault into the Rockets/Thunder/Nuggets tier, but I appreciate their willingness to go for it.


And where is AD going? I just don't see the Lakers having the juice to get it done.

Any other wild predictions before the trade deadline? Brad Beal maybe?

The Knicks are idiots and continue to be idiots. Was Krapsnaps still somewhat unrealized potential, yes, but he's the best player they've drafted in the last 30 years. And their move was a salary dump move to try to course correct for what were their own historically bad free agent signings not a couple years ago.

Hope that Kevin Durant and Kyrie want to come play there is not a plan. It's a Magic 8 Ball with some wish fulfillment on the side. And you've taken the guy who you previously defined as the foundational player to build around, and traded him for the guy you passed over in a previous draft, and a guy who while he has this reputation as a defender and rebounder, made the Mavs demonstrably worse on both ends of the floor this year when he was playing.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612742/onoffcourt-summary/

It's LolKnicks all over again. To your point, it'll be Goran Dragic and Tobias Harris instead of Durant and Kyrie.

[Jaybee]

"eff" the Thunder, "eff" Clay Bennett and "eff" Howard Schultz....

regards,

Seattle SuperSonics fan.....:cool:

;)

It's been 10+ years. Maybe find someone to talk to? ;)

[Ozz]

It's been 10+ years. Maybe find someone to talk to? ;)

too soon man, too soon....:help:

FWIW - mostly "eff" Howard.....

[Jaybee]

too soon man, too soon....:help:

FWIW - mostly "eff" Howard.....

I lived in OKC long enough to find out that Clay and the rest of his billionaire oil buddies are jackasses. Eff him too.

I think what happened to Seattle sucked. I don't think the Thunder and the fans of OKC deserve any blame for it, but the Schultz/Bennett/Stern business was all kinds of wrong.

[Ozz]

I lived in OKC long enough to find out that Clay and the rest of his billionaire oil buddies are jackasses. Eff him too.

I think what happened to Seattle sucked. I don't think the Thunder and the fans of OKC deserve any blame for it, but the Schultz/Bennett/Stern business was all kinds of wrong.

+1000

OK - you talked me off the ledge....OKC and team are good in my book.

:beer:

[Climb01742]

As good as Kyrie is, and he’s very, very good, the C’s should trade him now. Think Knicks would trade their first round pick? Zion would look good in green.;)

[Jaybee]

As good as Kyrie is, and he’s very, very good, the C’s should trade him now. Think Knicks would trade their first round pick? Zion would look good in green.;)

Man, this is a tough sell.

I get that we are in "the Dubs and everybody else" era, but the C's have a real chance to get out of the East this year (don't tell XXtwindad that I said that). That's a Steph high ankle sprain and Gordon Hayward gets hot away from another title. I whine as much as anyone about the Dubs taking all the drama away, but there is real value in being a good team that is ready when the opportunity arises.

Also, this is the Knicks, and David Stern isn't freezing envelopes anymore. hey are going to end up with the 3rd pick or something.

[XXtwindad]

Man, this is a tough sell.

I get that we are in "the Dubs and everybody else" era, but the C's have a real chance to get out of the East this year (don't tell XXtwindad that I said that). That's a Steph high ankle sprain and Gordon Hayward gets hot away from another title. I whine as much as anyone about the Dubs taking all the drama away, but there is real value in being a good team that is ready when the opportunity arises.

Also, this is the Knicks, and David Stern isn't freezing envelopes anymore. hey are going to end up with the 3rd pick or something.

Ha! Read that :)

[FlashUNC]

Man, this is a tough sell.

I get that we are in "the Dubs and everybody else" era, but the C's have a real chance to get out of the East this year (don't tell XXtwindad that I said that). That's a Steph high ankle sprain and Gordon Hayward gets hot away from another title. I whine as much as anyone about the Dubs taking all the drama away, but there is real value in being a good team that is ready when the opportunity arises.

Also, this is the Knicks, and David Stern isn't freezing envelopes anymore. hey are going to end up with the 3rd pick or something.

They gotta get past the Raptors first. Playoff Kawhi is no joke.

[Climb01742]

Man, this is a tough sell.

I get that we are in "the Dubs and everybody else" era, but the C's have a real chance to get out of the East this year (don't tell XXtwindad that I said that). That's a Steph high ankle sprain and Gordon Hayward gets hot away from another title. I whine as much as anyone about the Dubs taking all the drama away, but there is real value in being a good team that is ready when the opportunity arises.

Also, this is the Knicks, and David Stern isn't freezing envelopes anymore. hey are going to end up with the 3rd pick or something.

Don’t get me wrong. I’d love Kyrie to stay...if he’s committed here long term. But if it’s proving too much work for him, or the young guys are being, well, young guys, and he’s thinking of bouncing somewhere, well then we should get something for him before he leaves. It’s frustrating. The C’s are everything he said he wanted. But it’s proving to be work for him to be a leader. Maybe he wants to be a star without being a leader. Fine. He has every right to walk. And Danny has every right to trade him first. We got pretty far last year without him. Rather have him but not if he’s gonna bounce July 1.

[Jaybee]

They gotta get past the Raptors first. Playoff Kawhi is no joke.

This is where my money would be. Just saying that the C's have a shot.

Fwiw, I agree that if you have solid, really solid intel that your superstar is leaving, it makes sense to get assets while you can, and preferably before you lose all your leverage.

I've seen conjecture that the Knicks know they are getting KD and Kyrie this summer, so they shipped Porzingis out to facilitate and released the "he's not on board" statement to soften the PR hit. That's a little too Area 51 for me, and also, this is the Knicks. No reason to think we are working with Machiavellian geniuses here.

[Bob Ross]

The C’s are everything he said he wanted. But it’s proving to be work for him to be a leader. Maybe he wants to be a star without being a leader.

Doris Burke nailed it in her comments (I'm paraphrasing) during last night's Knicks/Celts game: Kyrie wanted to get out from under LeBron's shadow and be the Big Man™ on his own team. Now he is the Celts Big Man™ and, what, he wants to go play for LA so he can be in LeBron's shadow again? That'll never happen...and if it does, it's because Kyrie doesn't really know what he wants.

[wc1934]

Doris Burke nailed it in her comments (I'm paraphrasing) during last night's Knicks/Celts game: Kyrie wanted to get out from under LeBron's shadow and be the Big Man™ on his own team. Now he is the Celts Big Man™ and, what, he wants to go play for LA so he can be in LeBron's shadow again? That'll never happen...and if it does, it's because Kyrie doesn't really know what he wants.

He really doesn't. 2 months ago he all but said he would re-sign. After that loss to the Knicks (around Xmas time) they had a team meeting - players only. Kyrie was complaining about the young players and he not getting enough shots (even called LeBron to talk about their relationship and how he acted - maybe reflected and saw himself in those young players).

Yesterday he told reporters he doesn't owe owe anyone "sh@t". Not a good sign for the Celtics. He might be having second thoughts about being "the man" - might settle for second fiddle again.

C's still have a great core - Brown, Tatum, Horford, Hayward, Morris - etc and Stevens can coach - dont count them out!

[XXtwindad]

Can someone explain how Kyrie/KD wins a championship when Westbrook/KD didn't?

[Climb01742]

He really doesn't. 2 months ago he all but said he would re-sign. After that loss to the Knicks (around Xmas time) they had a team meeting - players only. Kyrie was complaining about the young players and he not getting enough shots (even called LeBron to talk about their relationship and how he acted - maybe reflected and saw himself in those young players).

Yesterday he told reporters he doesn't owe owe anyone "sh@t". Not a good sign for the Celtics. He might be having second thoughts about being "the man" - might settle for second fiddle again.

C's still have a great core - Brown, Tatum, Horford, Hayward, Morris - etc and Stevens can coach - dont count them out!

Agree. If Danny can trade Kyrie for the right piece, the drop off might not be that great talent-wise, but be an addition by subtraction for team chemistry and morale?

[Climb01742]

Can someone explain how Kyrie/KD wins a championship when Westbrook/KD didn't?

Exactly. As talented as they both are, they both seem best suited to not shouldering a team. They both can have extraordinary nights, but seem happiest when someone else has the team on their shoulders. Steph is the ideal teammate for KD.

[Jaybee]

Can someone explain how Kyrie/KD wins a championship when Westbrook/KD didn't?

KD/Russ had two great shots at a ring- one finals appearance and a second if Klay doesnt go nuts in G6. A couple bounces and things are different. While I understand and maybe even agree with the leadership characterization, I don't think it's crazy to think that a Kyrie/KD team (with at least 3 other really good shooters and a top 10 defense) gets out of the East. In a post Dubs world (only 2 years out), that might be enough. Especially if a top 3 pick this year pans out.

[jtakeda]

KD/Russ had two great shots at a ring- one finals appearance and a second if Klay doesnt go nuts in G6. A couple bounces and things are different. While I understand and maybe even agree with the leadership characterization, I don't think it's crazy to think that a Kyrie/KD team (with at least 3 other really good shooters and a top 10 defense) gets out of the East. In a post Dubs world (only 2 years out), that might be enough. Especially if a top 3 pick this year pans out.

If KD and Kyrie go to the knicks they’re definitely in the mix—but that organization is so tumultuous that I don’t see much happening besides one or two good playoff runs.

I also don’t see the dubs reign over in 2 years. Sure they might not win back to back to back..... but I wouldn’t be surprised if KD leaves and then someone like Deandre Jordan gets signed.

[Jaybee]

If KD and Kyrie go to the knicks they’re definitely in the mix—but that organization is so tumultuous that I don’t see much happening besides one or two good playoff runs.

I also don’t see the dubs reign over in 2 years. Sure they might not win back to back to back..... but I wouldn’t be surprised if KD leaves and then someone like Deandre Jordan gets signed.

I agree that the Knicks don't seem likely to do much around KD/Kyrie, if that were to happen.

I think math (https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/) is going to catch up to the Dubs in 2020. I assume Iggy/Livingston will be retired then, but assuming the core stays together, you are talking something like $125M for 4 players (all on the wrong side of 30, BTW), leaving something like 20 million to fill the other 11 spots. When you aren't drafting in the lottery, that's tough. If KD leaves, then you have a nice 3 player core and more space around him to fill in spots, but they are the best of a few good teams then, probably not a 63% favorite. (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2019-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo) against the field. If they start spending money on players like DeAndre Jordan (who, despite his reputation, is actually not that great at anything besides stealing rebounds), then we will know the dynasty is sunk.

[Jaybee]

So the Sixers are shooting their shot!

Simmons-Redick-Butler-Harris-Embiid is a legitimately scary starting 5. Boban off the bench!


That bench though... Mike Scott, Jonah Bolden, Furkan Korkmaz, TJ McConnell, Amir Johnson. I didn't make any of those names up.


Honestly, I think I still like the Raps, regardless if this Conley/Gasol for Lowry/JV trade goes through.

[Aaron O]

Really upset that 4 years of the process has culminated in:

Tobias Harris, a fringe star bound to be overpaid.
Jimmy Butler, a poor fit and bad guy.

Both on expiring deals, and you can’t keep both.

Fultz, though I understand that one...

Zhaire. Who knows.

And two legit stars.

[Jaybee]

Really upset that 4 years of the process has culminated in:

Tobias Harris, a fringe star bound to be overpaid.
Jimmy Butler, a poor fit and bad guy.

Both on expiring deals, and you can’t keep both.

Fultz, though I understand that one...

Zhaire. Who knows.

And two legit stars.


Hey, don't forget 34 year old JJ Redick, the lynchpin of your entire offense!

Elton Brand is going for it. Maybe you get to the Finals this year.


ETA: If Harris signs first, then Philly can go over the cap to keep Butler this summer. But JJ would have to take a pay cut.

ETA2: I'd like Philly a lot more with the Harris trade and no Butler trade. The current core minus Jimmy plus Saric/RoCo is much better.

[Jaybee]

I don't understand Bullock for Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk from the Pistons standpoint at all. Unless they don't care at all about the playoffs, in which case why trade for Griffin last year?

[Jaybee]

Trade deadline day is one of my favorite days.

https://d2v7i6t2.map2.ssl.hwcdn.net/content/quotes/3520_500.jpg

My favorite current story is the Pels just letting LAL blow in the wind and leak trade rumors in order to sow discord internally. Now ever LAL player knows who LeBron wants and doesn't want.

Dell Demps has not been a good GM, but this is next-level trollery.

[wc1934]

Really upset that 4 years of the process has culminated in:

Tobias Harris, a fringe star bound to be overpaid.
Jimmy Butler, a poor fit and bad guy.

Both on expiring deals, and you can’t keep both.

Fultz, though I understand that one...

Zhaire. Who knows.

And two legit stars.

Man, what a short strange trip its been. Trade with C's (J Tatum) to get him at number 1 and now he is gone - wow!

[FlashUNC]

I don't understand Bullock for Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk from the Pistons standpoint at all. Unless they don't care at all about the playoffs, in which case why trade for Griffin last year?

Because Stan was trying to save his job and it was a desperation move. You're assuming there's a long term plan in a lot of these places.

[Aaron O]

Man, what a short strange trip its been. Trade with C's (J Tatum) to get him at number 1 and now he is gone - wow!

Honestly, I’m just happy they got him out without paying someone to take the salary (cough, cough, Okafor).

I do like the pickup of Ennis.

[Jaybee]

Honestly, I’m just happy they got him out without paying someone to take the salary (cough, cough, Okafor).

I do like the pickup of Ennis.

Can't believe they got a first for him.

I'm stoked for the East playoffs, second round on.

[Jaybee]

Because Stan was trying to save his job and it was a desperation move. You're assuming there's a long term plan in a lot of these places.

After they moved Johnson and some other small parts it starts to make more sense. Prob not worth a tax payment to get swept by Giannis.

[XXtwindad]

I think it's a fantastic move. Cousins is continually exposed defensively, and Bogut has an abrasive personality (much like Green) that might shake the Dubs out of their stupor.

[FlashUNC]

I think it's a fantastic move. Cousins is continually exposed defensively, and Bogut has an abrasive personality (much like Green) that might shake the Dubs out of their stupor.

The guy couldn't guard a lamp post at the end of his last run with the team, much less those short stints with the Lakers and Mavs.

Other than bringing another surly presence into what is by all standards a surly locker room just to see what happens, I don't see what he adds to this mix that makes them a better team.

They didn't get their doors blown off by a sleepwalking Celtics team because they lacked a plodding big who does nothing but set moving screens and struggles to jump over a Sunday newspaper.

[Jaybee]

Bookmarking this for when the Dubs are up 3-1 on the Bucks in the Finals.

Bogut doesn't matter. Boogie doesn't matter. Per net rating data, the only thing that really matters is if they can get KD/Steph/Klay/Draymond on the floor in crunch time. GSW is only 10-11 when one of those 4 is missing. 34-9 when they are all available.


I'm guessing that Iggy will likely be the fifth guy in most high leverage situations, with some liberal doses of Cousins and Jordan Bell.

[XXtwindad]

The guy couldn't guard a lamp post at the end of his last run with the team, much less those short stints with the Lakers and Mavs.

Other than bringing another surly presence into what is by all standards a surly locker room just to see what happens, I don't see what he adds to this mix that makes them a better team.

They didn't get their doors blown off by a sleepwalking Celtics team because they lacked a plodding big who does nothing but set moving screens and struggles to jump over a Sunday newspaper.

Well, there's a broad continuum between a lamppost and Joel Embiid. I think Bogut will be beneficial with players in the middle of that spectrum. Hard for me to believe the Warriors brass devoted that much energy to recruiting Luc Longley...

[FlashUNC]

Bookmarking this for when the Dubs are up 3-1 on the Bucks in the Finals.

Bogut doesn't matter. Boogie doesn't matter. Per net rating data, the only thing that really matters is if they can get KD/Steph/Klay/Draymond on the floor in crunch time. GSW is only 10-11 when one of those 4 is missing. 34-9 when they are all available.


I'm guessing that Iggy will likely be the fifth guy in most high leverage situations, with some liberal doses of Cousins and Jordan Bell.

Bogut doesn't, but if there's anything that's been established this season is if any of those four guys is missing, the machine throws a rod pretty quickly and things stop working the way they should. Just need to look at Houston last year and what a tweaked Chris Paul hamstring meant for their Finals chances. Dubs have been nicked up and looked mortal when one of the Big Four ain't around. Road for the title still clearly goes through Oakland one way or another, but they haven't looked invincible for pretty long stretches this year.

[Waldo]

I doubt the Warriors will reach conference finals this year, but I don't care. The first championship was great. Exacting revenge on LeBron was great again. The ending of game 1 of the finals last year was hilarious. Beyond that, it's all gravy, which I will happily take or can leave.

[XXtwindad]

The guy couldn't guard a lamp post at the end of his last run with the team, much less those short stints with the Lakers and Mavs.

Other than bringing another surly presence into what is by all standards a surly locker room just to see what happens, I don't see what he adds to this mix that makes them a better team.

They didn't get their doors blown off by a sleepwalking Celtics team because they lacked a plodding big who does nothing but set moving screens and struggles to jump over a Sunday newspaper.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/warriors/amp/In-season-debut-with-Warriors-Andrew-Bogut-picks-13698780.php

Lampposts anyone? :)

[FlashUNC]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/warriors/amp/In-season-debut-with-Warriors-Andrew-Bogut-picks-13698780.php

Lampposts anyone? :)

The next game Bogut ends with a +/- that's positive will be his first.

But hey, his starting opposite against the TWolves only dropped a 20/20 game on him. Yeah, that Bogut defense is rock solid, totally slowed down KAT.

[XXtwindad]

The next game Bogut ends with a +/- that's positive will be his first.

But hey, his starting opposite against the TWolves only dropped a 20/20 game on him. Yeah, that Bogut defense is rock solid, totally slowed down KAT.

Well no, not really. Bogut lead the league in defensive +/- in their first title:

http://proxy.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm?year=2016&sort=DRPM

[joosttx]

Well no, not really. Bogut lead the league in defensive +/- in their first title:

http://proxy.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm?year=2016&sort=DRPM

Watching the Dub v. Pacers. Bogut is absolutely atrocious on both offense and defense during his first shift.

[FlashUNC]

Well no, not really. Bogut lead the league in defensive +/- in their first title:

http://proxy.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm?year=2016&sort=DRPM

Dubs acquire a time machine as well when they signed him?

Cuz tonight they won by 20 and change, and Bogut finished with a -12.

[Jaybee]

If you haven't seen video of the Jusuf Nurkic injury last night, do not seek it out. It's in the Paul George/Gordon Hayward/that kid from Louisville in the Final 4 vein.

Awful for both Portland, who was looking legitimately frisky in a "we can beat anyone except GSW" way and Nurkic, who was having a career year. I hope that it's just bones and not ligaments, and that his recovery is more PG than Hayward.

Playing the 5 for Portland is apparently hazardous to your health -

Walton, Bowie, Sabonis, Duckworth, Oden....

[FlashUNC]

If you haven't seen video of the Jusuf Nurkic injury last night, do not seek it out. It's in the Paul George/Gordon Hayward/that kid from Louisville in the Final 4 vein.

Awful for both Portland, who was looking legitimately frisky in a "we can beat anyone except GSW" way and Nurkic, who was having a career year. I hope that it's just bones and not ligaments, and that his recovery is more PG than Hayward.

Playing the 5 for Portland is apparently hazardous to your health -

Walton, Bowie, Sabonis, Duckworth, Oden....

It's a shame. I was really looking forward to Nurkic and Westbrook crossing paths in the playoffs.

Given his game doesn't really depend on athleticism like some others, fingers crossed he's back in a year or two and can continue playing. Just awful.

[Jaybee]

It's a shame. I was really looking forward to Nurkic and Westbrook crossing paths in the playoffs.

Given his game doesn't really depend on athleticism like some others, fingers crossed he's back in a year or two and can continue playing. Just awful.

Hah. Portland is 3 or 4 when this is done. OKC is 7 or 8. Either Denver or GSW will punt the Thunder into the sun in the first round.

It is too bad though. In addition to the Russ-Nurkic beef, watching Nurkic-Adams is my favorite strongman bear-wrasslin' in the league.

[Climb01742]

As Heyward is slowly going through, recovery from such a gruesome injury is maybe more mental than physical. You can see, justifiably, his fear/hesitation going really hard to the hole.

[Jaybee]

As Heyward is slowly going through, recovery from such a gruesome injury is maybe more mental than physical. You can see, justifiably, his fear/hesitation going really hard to the hole.

Yeah. He probably needs at least a couple of years before we really evaluate his recovery too. Post-injury Paul George wasn't better than pre-injury until this year- 3 (?) years after the incident.

[Climb01742]

Yeah. He probably needs at least a couple of years before we really evaluate his recovery too. Post-injury Paul George wasn't better than pre-injury until this year- 3 (?) years after the incident.

At least Heyward can recover. Can Kyrie ever cease being a jerk?;) Our team chemistry is shot. Danny needs to scrap whatever plan he’s on and draw up a new one without Kyrie. Two things are undeniable. His talent and his self absorbed jerkiness.

[Jaybee]

Kyrie: This is all on me guys. I really need to do a better job as leader of teaching you young guys how to be more like me. You know, so you can be winners. Because I rode LBJ's coattails to the finals and hit one big shot. And all you guys have ever done without me is make the Conference Finals.


Is there any Boston fan that wouldn't consider it addition by subtraction for Kyrie to be a Knick next year?

[FlashUNC]

Yeah. He probably needs at least a couple of years before we really evaluate his recovery too. Post-injury Paul George wasn't better than pre-injury until this year- 3 (?) years after the incident.

Tib fib isn't an easy one, but Hayward's ankle fracture looks like it did a number physically and mentally.

Zach Lowe had a great story talking to Hayward about both the mental and physical of it all. Story had this undercurrent that the guy will never be the player he was, and is trying to figure out who he's going to be now.

[wc1934]

At least Heyward can recover. Can Kyrie ever cease being a jerk?;) Our team chemistry is shot. Danny needs to scrap whatever plan he’s on and draw up a new one without Kyrie. Two things are undeniable. His talent and his self absorbed jerkiness.
no he can't. He isnnot playing tonite (again) against Cle

[FlashUNC]

Hah. Portland is 3 or 4 when this is done. OKC is 7 or 8. Either Denver or GSW will punt the Thunder into the sun in the first round.

It is too bad though. In addition to the Russ-Nurkic beef, watching Nurkic-Adams is my favorite strongman bear-wrasslin' in the league.

Let me have my dreams the Universe would allow those to a chance to have the first real playoff fight since, what....Knicks/Heat?