Dario, redux

[Brendan Quirk]

Hi folks. I admit I'm a lurker here on the Serotta board because I'm a student of the fascinating intersection between bicycles and life, and serotta.com is where the most illuminated dialogue on this topic occurs. Not just dialogue on the web, but dialogue anywhere. I know some of you personally and I wish I knew more because I feel a deep kinship to the spirit of this place. So, by way of introduction: My name is Brendan. I ride a Big Leg Emma. I own Competitive Cyclist. I write most of the road copy you'll see on our website.

I'd like to say I have an answer to the varied postings written about my Responsorium comments, but I don't. I'd say what I wrote on our site is an extension of two things:

(1) My concern for Dario. His depressed vibe at Vegas was a topic of discussion for many people once they walked out of the Gita booth. His disposition was oppressive. This is not a debatable point. It worried a lot of people who care about him, me included.

(2) My personal professional dissatisfaction about our marketing of bicycles and related products. By "our" I'm speaking in a very broad sense -- both the vast bike industry, and Competitive Cyclist itself.

I'm not breaking new ground in this community when I state a powerful belief of mine: As an industry we could likely eliminate 90% of the "high-end" offerings in the marketplace, and the high-end cyclist would be no worse off for it. Ours is an industry oversaturated with self-same brands, and these brands churn out an endless supply of me-too products.

This is not to segregate the craftsmen (e.g. Dario, Serotta, Seven) from bigger companies that farm out huge production runs to Taiwan. Rather, it's to discern between products that are unique, and those with no noteworthy engineering or design details to differentiate them. I think the folks here understand the complexity of this: There's plenty of "hand-crafted" garbage out there, just as there's some brilliant stuff produced in Taiwan. And the opposite equally exists.

Unfortunately, as an on-line retailer we cannot limit our selection only to products we're feverishly in love with. Limiting our selection to those products would be financial suicide for the fact that (a) most of the stuff we'd show for sale would be expensive, and (b) our breadth of products would be so limited that inexpert customers would rightfully think that our product selection was woefully incomplete.

From what I can tell, one important principle of almost any business is to provide easy access to high-demand products. The good news is that our industry has enough of these that Competitive Cyclist can profit and continue to grow. The bad news is that given our product presentation method here, I have the responsibility to present these products (all of them) with enthusiasm and passion.

I guess it's my ever-growing fatigue with that responsibility that ultimately led to my Responsorium write-up. The write up is less about Dario's personal state of mind, and more a snapshot of my own. There are days that I feel an ever-growing distaste for who I am and what I do for a living. I'm getting tired of expressing (feigning?) passion for many of the products we sell -- these self-same, me-too products we MUST sell to survive. In lieu of passion (real or not), I've trended in my copywriting towards a more editorial mode where my comments are less about the technical attributes of products and more about my personal perception of them. I recognize this, and I don't know if this is just a mood swing I'll work my way through, or it represents a new & permanent approach about the way we'll discuss products on our website. I don't know.

What I do know, though, is that never, ever, ever would I want to do something that would harm or distress anyone in the realms (on-line and real) in which I live. If I hurt Dario, it's a doubly bad thing because the origin of my Responsorium comments is my own uncertain emotional place. If I've victimized him in the least, I apologize in a very public way. I guess I'm unsure, though, whether I've done that.

Though I'm not an interactive member of this community, I'm most certainly an engaged member of it. Several of you have already contacted me via email about the Responsorium situation. Some have encouraged me to keep the page intact. Others have requested a wholesale edit of the page (these comments have ranged from the sensitive to the outright threatening). I don't know what to do. Honestly, I have a lot of emotion contained there, but my mind and ears are open. If it's clear that the consensus in this esteemed community is for me to "leave Dario alone" as it were, then I imagine I'll pull what I wrote.

And please let me be clear that my request here is not a marketing ploy. Just as my write up of the Responsorium is very much a self-conscious (and perhaps self-defeating) attempt to talk about bikes without trying to sell them. I want to do right by the community I care for. Thanks for sifting through this, Brendan

[atmo]

<snipped> The write up is less about Dario's personal state of mind, and more a snapshot of my own. <cut>
Some have encouraged me to keep the page intact. Others have requested a wholesale edit of the page (these comments have ranged from the sensitive to the outright threatening). I don't know what to do.

do nothing atmo.
leave it as is.
the page, your site, and your pov matter.
thanks.

[dave thompson]

Brendan:

I don't know you and I've not done any business with your company (yet). I took your Responsorium write up mostly at face value. From what I've read about Dario, he seems to be a true and passionate artist. Artists have their ups and downs as we all do, though theirs is more publicly manifested and their works reflect the goings on in their lives. The Responsorium is merely an example of how he is at the moment.

[mosca]

You have a way with words. If Dario himself does not object to your writeup, I hope you will keep it as is.

[GoJavs]

Most of us are probably not qualified to give you an answer, but an opinion...sure... :D

A blog would be a great place for not only the write-up on the new Pego but also some of the stuff you are expressing on this message just now. Blogs allow people 'a lot' of room to express their professional opinions without doing it in the strict context of the business. Done properly, a blog let's you have it both ways.

Hey. Don't fret. I sell for a living too. For a bunch of years, I sold fresh asparagus for a living yet I wouldn't eat the stuff if my life depended on it! :crap:

Javier Gonzalez
Miami, Florida

[Xyzzy]

Leave it be, I thought it was a great writeup.

Now that you are registered, post more.

:)

[saab2000]

I don't know Dario Pegoretti and cannot comment on any of that stuff, but I will say that I enjoy your site very much and appreciate your thoughts on the stuff you sell.

I have purchased there.

Running a business can be tough. Obviously, you are the only one who can tell how you should market your stuff. But don't candy coat it. Cuz the paying customer sometimes really does care.

Before I started posting here I had never heard of Pegoretti or if I had, only in vague passing. I have been on more than one occasion close to buying one of his bikes.

I wish peace to all in our little world of bikes. I hope you continue with your fine business (I really go to your site sometimes just to read the writing) and hope that we can all continue to enjoy Dario Pegoretti's bikes (whether we own them or just look at them) long into the future.

One more thing...... Bring back Look frames..... :o

[Serpico]

I learned nothing about the product from that article--nothing.

Why not roll it into one of the (great) essays on your 'What's New' page.

It's simply not relevant to the product.

I think people here are just desperate for Dario info. Put it somewhere else. There's nothing inherently offensive, at all, about what you wrote--it's just in the wrong place.

I'm a pretty loyal cc customer, simply because you guys are the best. I love your website, I love your product writeups, customer service is great, I love the product details on your pictures, and you guys are awesome over the phone. The Responsorium writeup just doesn't make sense as a product essay/ad copy. I think it would go well on your 'What's New' page.

Having said that, it's your company. Do what you like.

Thanks.

[Ginger]

Brendan,

I stated before that your friends should be checking up on you to see how you are... I hope they have.

As a fellow writer, and copywriter (without the same freedom of course) I still think the piece could use more sales information, but considering this from the other thread (if round, is indeed Dario and I see no reason to doubt that it is):

I don't know if the piece was written by Brendan, but if it was, I think that he's a great guy in that he has the ability to see beyond what is apparent and to see deep within my spirit. The author has written exactly what I feel and what I try to say, but can't explain well because of the language- and because sometimes our education kills the feelings and withholds the words in the mouth.

I would leave the piece stand exactly as it is, where it is. Unless he himself asks you to change it.

Good luck,
Mary Ann


Oh! Welcome to the forum! Grab a lunch tray and join us!

[1centaur]

Hi Brendan:

I appreciate you taking the time to write on this forum and clarify your thinking. I hope you stick around and post on more mundane topics from time to time, since it seems like many members of this community could use this space for commercial purposes but are able not to. Your insight and experience would be a plus for us.

Experienced CC readers know how to read between the lines on your enthusiasm. That helps us focus on the ones where sincerity is most obvious. My advice is to avoid going too far to the personal in tone and instead use length and specificity as ways to convey greater vs. lesser enthusiasm. If we take as a given that you would not stock it if it were not a reasonable product (50 on a scale of 1-100) then your fervency and length of description can help us discriminate between a 62 and a 98. My advice is to update your What's New section more frequently and use that as your subjective sounding board. To the extent you are growing bored with writing product descriptions enthusiastically, farm out the lesser product descriptions to the staff and edit/coach their submissions. Faithful readers will still pick out your voice on 100% Brendan write-ups.

On the Peg issue, I think your personalization of the story was disconcerting in a marketing context in a way that would affect perceptions of other write-ups if it was more than a one-off. I also wondered what DP would think reading it and doubted it would be positive. I think you could have conveyed that the artwork reflects DP's current feelings without pushing the speculation so far. The target audience seeing that paint would have got the hint that DP's not at his sunniest. I think your comments succeeded as an expression of your humanity but clashed with customer expectations about what marketing is and should be, and that is a line best not crossed very much.

All that said, I appreciated that you felt the need to write what you did, as I appreciate the personal effort put into so many of your write-ups.

[bostondrunk]

now i understand why you sell Ridley bikes........:)
just kidding.

[davyt]

.

[72gmc]

I want to buy bikes made by people that care as much as he does.
I want to buy bikes from people that care as much as you do.

People who care a lot will occasionally expose too much, but the rewards are worth the risk.

Just my opinion...

[Erik.Lazdins]

I've been a fan and will continue to be. I've been a customer and will continue to be.

Your posting answered what I've wondered as to whether you read this fine site of Ben's!

Erik Lazdins

[David Kirk]

I see what you wrote about Dario as being filled with love and concern......for both the man and his work. I hope that you don't change a single word unless Dario himself feels you should.

It's solid writing and I enjoyed and related to every word.

Thank you.

Dave

[davids]

Brendan,

I appreciate your appearance here to explicate your writing. I am one of those who reacted negatively to what you wrote. I did not see it as your place to publically expound on someone's private life - If you cared about Dario as a person, what you did made no sense to me.

And the more it gnawed at me, the more I doubted that your motives were altruistic. And that bothered me even more. I've always enjoyed your website and your writing, and I felt betrayed.

But based on Dario's comments in the original thread, and on yours here, I will support you keeping the text as it is. Mosca said it well:
You have a way with words. If Dario himself does not object to your writeup, I hope you will keep it as is.
Wishing you and Dario well,

[cpg]

This whole thing reminds me of Grant Petersen's writings about business and everyday life at his company. I know Grant personally and know he doesn't view them as a marketing tool. He just likes to write and people like to read. It's actually quite refreshing to have something to read other than the typical garbage about stiff yet compliant, descends on rails, corners delepathically, disappears underneath you blah, blah, barf!

As to the complaints about there's not enough info about the new Peg model, it clearly says what it's made of, there's a geometry chart, you know who made it and how much it costs. What else do you need?

Curt

[Serpico]

...

What else do you need?

...

11 paragraphs of psychoanalysis probably isn't necessary.

[GD2002]

Brendan,

Your site was one of many that drove me back to cycling.
In fact, I probably purchased the last 2005 Sienna (M size) Litespeed just days before you removed LS from the website/offering altogether.

Sometime I go to your website just to read many 'what's new' items and find them very entertaining if not informative.

..and yes, I have purchased items from your website and just did again yesterday (DB Track Pants) which should be arriving next election day.

Keep up the nice work....

Thanks,
GD2002


ps: Now can I have the 30% discount for the next purchase, please? :rolleyes:

[Serpico]

.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=20204&highlight=depressed
.

but seriously--go type bikeforums.net into your browser and read some thread titles there. now tell me you think that responsorium article is suitable for mass consumption. don't confuse serotta forums with the "public" who will read that article at over cc.

just imo^^^

hope I don't sound like a killjoy or some too serious person :)

[catulle]

Bravo...!! Thank you for your honesty. Too bad the words business and honesty have come too close to becoming an oxymoron. You have my respect.

[cadence90]

Brendan,
First, thank you for the considered and well-written reply. I can see this issue is painful and troubling for you and for that I am sorry.

I do not know you but I have communicated with you, via email, regarding bicycles.You have always given me honest, concise, and extremely helpful replies, even if I was not a customer. I can think of very few etailers that provide the level of service, communication and insight that you and your site do. I do not know of your personal situation, but I hope the support expressed here gives you faith that there are many people who respect and care about CC.

I posted my opinion of the text re: Responsorium in the other (Dar-E-Oh!) thread, and I still feel the same way.

As a blog, on a "Dario" page, etc. I think it is wonderful writing. Dario seems to like it, and that should suffice. However, from the "outside" and as a cyclist, as a customer, as someone who's parents were both artists and who struggled greatly and moved out of this life in the manner to which you allude (although not as dramatic as stepping into traffic, etc.) I found the last paragraphs extremely painful to read, sad, and imho not appropriate in the context of that particular page.

All my respect to you, nonetheless.

[cpg]

11 paragraphs of psychoanalysis probably isn't necessary.

Of course not. But it's Brendan's business so he's welcome to do as he wishes. I don't mind the 11 (I didn't count, I'm taking your word for it) paragraphs. While I'm willing to bet Brendan's motives weren't to motivate sales, I think it's a pretty good attempt at putting a human being behind the decal. Dario is a singular human and humans experience so much in their lives. These things effect us humans. When a singular human is the workforce, regardless of the work produced, life experiences will effect that human's output. This article pointed that out. If that somehow scares someone away from a Peg, Brendan has plenty other bikes to sell them. I don't see the harm.

Curt

[big shanty]

I wonder why there was so much debate about the Responsorium paint?? Clearly those people who are into Pegorettis gravitate toward louder paint jobs (the Luigino excluded!), and have long-since "acquired the taste".

"I have a Pegoretti from his "dark period"!" Pretty brilliant.

[swoop]

the very quality that makes pegs what they are is that they feel to me .. to be embedded with the soul of the person making them. when you buy a peg you are buying something that could only exist at that exact moment in time and in close relationship to the daily life of the person making the frame.

therefore when talking about a peg.. by it's very nature.. you have to address the personal. that is why they are special.

[cadence90]

the very quality that makes pegs what they are is that they feel to me .. to be embedded with the soul of the person making them. when you buy a peg you are buying something that could only exist at that exact moment in time and in close relationship to the daily life of the person making the frame.

therefore when talking about a peg.. by it's very nature.. you have to address the personal. that is why they are special.
I recall on another site someone (innocently) confused atmo's dog with atmo hisownself.

Talk about soul....

[cpg]

the very quality that makes pegs what they are is that they feel to me .. to be embedded with the soul of the person making them. when you buy a peg you are buying something that could only exist at that exact moment in time and in close relationship to the daily life of the person making the frame.

therefore when talking about a peg.. by it's very nature.. you have to address the personal. that is why they are special.


No argument here. I would add this is the way of anything crafted by a single or small group of artisans/crafts people setting out to do the best job they can and have for a long time.

Curt

[atmo]

I recall on another site someone (innocently) confused atmo's dog with atmo hisownself.

Talk about soul....
well we've never been seen simultaneously at the same time atmo

[shaq-d]

i guess this is what happens when paint jobs becomes bikes.

me, i prefer the bike.

sd

[cadence90]

well we've never been seen simultaneously at the same time atmoHa ha ha ha ha!

What's that I hear?...ARF!!!

[mike p]

Brendan,

Have always enjoyed your informative site and anyone who's spoken to you would know your not just a salesperson but part of the bike culture. Reading about Dario via your site I had no doubt you were concerned in a loving non homosexual way. Keep up the good work.

Mike

[Fina1]

Brendan,

Like so many others here, I don't know you personally, but I have always enjoyed your writing and product reviews as well as the professionalism and honesty I have experienced in my dealings with you and with Competitive Cyclist. Your products are top-notch and the information and assistance you provide is in a class by itself. I am the happy owner of a few Peg's, and read with alarm your description of DP's current state of mind. Clearly, this piece is unlike anything else you have written on the CC website and just as clearly, what you have seen and heard from DP has caused you great concern. Perhaps unusual circumstances call for unusual actions. It may have been difficult to do the bike review without reviewing the person behind the bike. The situation is what it is and I don't have an anwer, but I did want to pass on my regards to you and hope this dark cloud passes and everyone can get back to making and marketing great bikes and bike products.

[fstrthnu]

"He (Basquiat) banged Madonna with famous regularity when she was in her early 20's."

IMHO Madonna was banging Basquiat. ;)

Other than that discrepancy I like what your wrote and if Dario has no problem with it... its a keeper.

Best,
Fstrthnu

[Serpico]

this is weird. a bunch of people I respect have the opposite opinion I do.

I dunno.

no comment beyond that.

I don't know much, but I can have my opinion. I'm grateful for this forum. :)

[Serpico]

IMHO Madonna was banging Basquiat. ;)

...


that was probably the best time to be banging madonna.

cheers to dario, brendan and jean-michel

[fstrthnu]

that was probably the best time to be banging madonna.

cheers to dario, brendan and jean-michel

Bro... you missed my point. Re-read carefully.

Fstrthnu

[davids]

this is weird. a bunch of people I respect have the opposite opinion I do.

I dunno.

no comment beyond that.

I don't know much, but I can have my opinion. I'm grateful for this forum. :)
Hey, whaddam I? Chopped liver?

[atmo]

Hey, whaddam I? Chopped liver?
well yeah, kinda' atmo.
sbliminal message follows:


just kidding atmo.

[cpg]

I think it's a beautiful thing that we don't all agree. Life would be boring otherwise. It's also beautiful how nobody has resorted to ripping on anyone. Life is good here. Don't forget to vote on Tuesday!

Curt

[Climb01742]

dario is a good egg. brendan is a good egg. for me, something about the review just isn't kosher. but articulating exactly what that is, well, it's beyond my brain on a friday night. i wish the best for both DP and BQ. i'm fresh outta anything intelligent to say. bartender! vino for my friends.

[atmo]

dario is a good egg. brendan is a good egg. for me, something about the review just isn't kosher. but articulating exactly what that is, well, it's beyond my brain on a friday night. i wish the best for both DP and BQ. i'm fresh outta anything intelligent to say. bartender! vino for my friends.
isn't it just kinda' copywriting? cc has to sell
frames that other gita dealers can also sell. they
needs to create a framework from within which
a loyal and a to-be-developed clientele feels
sympatico with the guy at the helm. i don't
for a minute question the text or the sincerity
behind brendan's page, but brendan is also
selling brendan when he sells dario, and it's
a good thing. all involved are creative types,
small eggs in a big chicken coop, and there's
an inate need to continually reinvent, or at least
work hard(er) at keeping what you've already
created. i liked the page, despite the fact that
others here thought it was edgy and lacked true
frame specs, i like the feel of the cc site, and i
am a dario-issta to the max atmo.
hey thanks for reading.

[Archibald]

I think it's a beautiful thing that we don't all agree. Life would be boring otherwise. It's also beautiful how nobody has resorted to ripping on anyone. Life is good here. Don't forget to vote on Tuesday!

Curt
Yo Curt - kiss my pink hiney. :butt:

BTW, I did the early voting thing this morning while there was still a paper trail.

Death to electronic voting with no paper trail!!!!

[Archibald]

isn't it just kinda' copywriting? cc has to sell
frames that other gita dealers can also sell. they
needs to create a framework from within which
a loyal and a to-be-developed clientele feels
sympatico with the guy at the helm. i don't
for a minute question the text or the sincerity
behind brendan's page, but brendan is also
selling brendan when he sells dario, and it's
a good thing. all involved are creative types,
small eggs in a big chicken coop, and there's
an inate need to continually reinvent, or at least
work hard(er) at keeping what you've already
created. i liked the page, despite the fact that
others here thought it was edgy and lacked true
frame specs, i like the feel of the cc site, and i
am a dario-issta to the max atmo.
hey thanks for reading.

"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut. " - Albert Einstein

Dario said it was cool, so it's cool; but after all the reflection I've done on it, and given the context in which it was used, I think it was a little light on Z. But that's just me. And that rhymes. It's banana time!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[atmo]

"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut. " - Albert Einstein

Dario said it was cool, so it's cool; but after all the reflection I've done on it, and given the context in which it was used, I think it was a little light on Z. But that's just me. And that rhymes. It's banana time!

:banana: :banana: :banana:
take a nap atmo bananas

[Archibald]

take a nap atmo bananas
Dirt nap? Nice day for a resurrection!

http://res.dada.at/img/judeninkrems/3RichardSachsklein.gif

[bironi]

Will someone please email me the text of the Peg review under discussion. For some unknown reason to me, I have been unable to access this website for a few months.

Thanks much,
Byron :beer:

[bcm119]

Good, thoughtful and honest writing is welcomed by me at any time and in any place. Even where I would not expect it, like on a retail website.
I see no reason why a product description needs to be simple and boring like all the rest. We have enough thoughtless ad copy filling cyberspace and recycling bins everywhere. It was a good piece of writing; what URL it was located at made no difference to me, nor did it make me any less likely to buy the frame.

[Climb01742]

isn't it just kinda' copywriting? cc has to sell
frames that other gita dealers can also sell. they
needs to create a framework from within which
a loyal and a to-be-developed clientele feels
sympatico with the guy at the helm. i don't
for a minute question the text or the sincerity
behind brendan's page, but brendan is also
selling brendan when he sells dario, and it's
a good thing. all involved are creative types,
small eggs in a big chicken coop, and there's
an inate need to continually reinvent, or at least
work hard(er) at keeping what you've already
created. i liked the page, despite the fact that
others here thought it was edgy and lacked true
frame specs, i like the feel of the cc site, and i
am a dario-issta to the max atmo.
hey thanks for reading.

maybe it's a case of the copy being a little too much about the copywriter without adequately letting the reader know that that's the case. a reader believes it's a review of a frame. but is it actually a review of the writer's angst? if the reader knows that, then cool. but if the reader doesn't know that going in, then maybe not so cool. i sincerely believe brendan meant no harm whatsoever. his heart was in the right place. but subtext can distort the text if the reader hasn't been informed of the subtext. but it's friday, i'm sick and maybe my brain ain't working well. i'd just like the reader to know that. ;)

[atmo]

maybe it's a case of the copy being a little too much about the copywriter without adequately letting the reader know that that's the case. a reader believes it's a review of a frame. but is it actually a review of the writer's angst? if the reader knows that, then cool. but if the reader doesn't know that going in, then maybe not so cool. i sincerely believe brendan meant no harm whatsoever. his heart was in the right place. but subtext can distort the text if the reader hasn't been informed of the subtext. but it's friday, i'm sick and maybe my brain ain't working well. i'd just like the reader to know that. ;)
here's what i think now -
it was sincere. it was also copy. it was not meant to create all this.
as you once wrote to me: there is the thing, and there's the other
thing. (or something like that). atmo the original thing was cool,
edgy, different, and all that stuff a retailer needs to create and
work a room. but the other thing resulted here, among us. despite
dissecting it, reconstructing it, articulating it, or judging its merits,
i think the thing - that second thing - is now a reason that the first
thing is now past its shelf life and should be editted or removed.
i know from personal experience that it's unsettling to read about
oneself on a message board as though you are some 2 dimensional
being rather than a living, feeling creature, but i do like the cc site,
i know i would like brendan if i met him, and i am a dario-issta
to the core. so - as a result of the life that this page took since the
chat started here, i recant some of my support and feel that mebbe
the bell should be unrung atmo.
archie - i love you. thanks for the chat atmo.

[Too Tall]

"If I hurt Dario, it's a doubly bad thing because the origin of my Responsorium comments is my own uncertain emotional place. If I've victimized him in the least, I apologize in a very public way. I guess I'm unsure, though, whether I've done that. " (Brendan)

Yer good. Relax. The man is a survivor. If yours was anything it is affirmation or a rally for the man of a really diff. level only close friends share...yours sought consensus..we heard. At issue is / was (it aint an issue apparently) the "outting" of what are very private matters. But hey, it worked out :)

I sure as he!! appreciated the piece...infact I got an email from a local rider who rides an older Peg asking me for an opinion on the bike....so in three short paragraphs or less I had to convey the grace of Dario bringing together impossible materials with relevant aesthetic...well to us well washed types anywho ;) Luck was with me, my pal is a professor of philosophy at a major university....in short he called me a pompous a$$ and what's the number to Brendan's storefront....not kidding. My pal gets it.

Hope I made you smile.

Yo! Don't be a stranger, stranger.

[Sandy]

1. Why are you asking us? I think that you should contact Dario directly and try to ascertain his feelings and thoughts on the matter.

2. It appears that Mr. Pegoretti may be experiencing a personal emotional crisis. NONE of us really know what is going on in his mind and how your piece might affect that emotional status. Is it worth the risk, and/or was it necessary to choose the venue that you did? I think not.

3. You may have some frustration and dissatisfaction with how you and the rest of the bicyling industry develop, merchandise, and advertise their bikes, but it really wasn't necessary, giving the possible frailty of Mr. Pegoretti's psyche, to delve so deeply into that psyche when describing the Responsorium. You could have easily made your points independent of your analysis of Mr. Pegoretti.

4. Clearly, your thoughts were most sincere and honest.


One never really knows what is going on in the mind of another.



Sandy

[bironi]

someone throw me a bone. It's dark in this cave! :beer:

[Birddog]

I had no problem with the copy although it was at about my limit in length for it's purpose. I'm with ATMO now, maybe it's time for it to be edited or entirely changed. Sort of like Christo's fence the copy inspired much discussion, and that's a good thing considering the civility that was exhibited, at least on this forum. In describing the paint job, I think Round's own words would suffice.
what I feel and what I try to say, but can't explain well because of the language- and because sometimes our education kills the feelings and withholds the words in the mouth.

Birddog

[Sandy]

So how many of you would want to have your pesonal life exposed on a website? Especially if you were possibly having some genuinely personal problems at the time.

Mr. Pegoretti is an outstanding designer and builder of bikes. Delve into his bikes, but not his personal life. At least that is how I see it.




Sandy

[Grant McLean]

So how many of you would want to have your pesonal life exposed on a website?

Sandy


ahem...sandy, you have 5340 posts on this website:
I think you exposed enough about your personal life already!

:)

g

PS - my life too boring to be exposed!

[mikemets]

someone throw me a bone. It's dark in this cave! :beer:

Tried to send it to you as a PM, but its too long, sorry

[manet]

Tried to send it to you as a PM, but its too long, sorry

relax _ done

[Ginger]

maybe it's a case of the copy being a little too much about the copywriter without adequately letting the reader know that that's the case. a reader believes it's a review of a frame. but is it actually a review of the writer's angst? if the reader knows that, then cool. but if the reader doesn't know that going in, then maybe not so cool. i sincerely believe brendan meant no harm whatsoever. his heart was in the right place. but subtext can distort the text if the reader hasn't been informed of the subtext. but it's friday, i'm sick and maybe my brain ain't working well. i'd just like the reader to know that. ;)

I had read the cc copy when it was first out there and ...assuming that the subject had been contacted before publication; (aside from the who was banging who, I'm with fstr on that one) it is a well thought out essay. In part avoiding the task at hand, but thoughtful and caring with a lot of the writer's own light showing through.... That's what many people go to the cc site for. Not your normal copy. Actual, non-regurgitated opinion. Thought provoking. And this did succeed there.

I think the real issue I have with this article echoes Climbs...when writing copy you have a responsibility to the product and the maker to appropriately represent the product at hand. If you're going there, you can introduce the audience to some unknown facet of the maker. If the product sucks, you can go there too, but then why are you selling it?
But you also have a responsibility to your readers to take them on a journey; hopefully thrilling, but not one that you necessarily end safely or to their satisfaction, but they should have some idea of where your train is going before they make the choice to hop on.

Writing passionate, informative copy day in and day out, cycle after cycle can be onerous. A widget is a widget is a widget and there's not much else to say about it. Now..if the widget is made by an artist and the artist is a true artist, that lends spirit to the copy. If the art of the widget is the question, the writer can put more of their own self into the copy as well. Positive or negative, all this is good creative action and lends life to the copy.
Picking your reader up on one train and dumping your reader off in some dark oblivion without giving them a little light to find their way in advertising copy is a touch rude. (Ok in essays, that's sort of what they signed on for...to be dunked in a thought tank.)

Now on a personal level, the part that seems off to me...Copywriting is what I do. If I had written that article in response to the product that a friend made, I would be on the phone with the friend sharing the article and my thoughts with my friend and asking my friend if indeed this was anything close to the truth before I put it out for the world to digest. If I recognized that the essay was a huge part about me, I would have again, shared it with my friend and asked what he thought about it, and asked his permission to publish if he thought it was good. If I didn't recognize that so much of it was me based, my friend may have pointed it out. Sometimes there is comfort knowing that you're not the only one in a dark place. I'd also have sat back and said: Whoa...I need to do some thinking.

Brendan, I hope, if this really was part of your frustration, aggravation, and disappointment showing through that you have an excellent support network to help you through this difficult time. And please keep writing...

Peace

Mary Ann

[atmo]

<snipped>: If I had written that article in response to the product that a friend made, I would be on the phone with the friend sharing the article and my thoughts with my friend and asking my friend if indeed this was anything close to the truth before I put it out for the world to digest.
it took me a while to get this.
i hadn't given too much thought to the cart/horse of it all atmo.

And (Brendan) please keep writing...


yes atmo.

[manet]

it's a small pc. of cycling history _ frameable.

[davids]

http://www.bookshaker.com/images/backpage-happy.jpg

[Sandy]

It all depends when you entered the horse race.


Stalllion Sandy

[bironi]

Thanks for the story. I have yet to read the saga, and will probably hold my tongue at this late date.

Thanks again,
Byron

[catulle]

I recall on another site someone (innocently) confused atmo's dog with atmo hisownself.

Talk about soul....

Er, that's an easy thing to do, atmo. What's the problem?

[catulle]

What size is the famed frame, atmo...? Hell, I might as well just buy it.

[shinomaster]

Brenden, that was one of the posts of the year for sure...Selling stuff (and bikes are stuff), is a real drag sometimes. I sell art in a gallery...after a while it is all just merchandise..
Trying to convince people that they need the new campy record, or caad9 is as you know, a buch of malarky sometimes...
I didn't read your Dario page but I surely will.
What I see of Dario in pictures is this:
A slightly overweight, unhealthy chain smoking artist with a big smile on his face. Artists are notorious for being introverted and moody and difficult to understand. Brilliant artists like Dario are even more curious and enigmatic. Maybe he is just in a slump? I mean Vegas is a Rome at its worst. Who would want to go there from Italy to sell his bikes to rich Americans? Maybe he feels that his bikes are lost on most of the people that buy them? Maybe HE just needs a vacation..
I applaud you for being honest. THE Giordana arm warmers I bought from you last year are the best ever.. :banana:

Love,

shinomaster..

[cadence90]

Er, that's an easy thing to do, atmo. What's the problem?
Oh, no problem at all.
The fellow was just a little perplexed by the fact that someone called "Spencer" was sending him invoices...from Taiwan! (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=58528&highlight=sachs) :banana:

http://www.racelistings.com/data/images/Mvc-031s.jpg

[shinomaster]

Hmmmm...I just read the sales pitch...
It is a curious place to express concern for a person or friend. It would, of course be pathetic to try to sell a bike by forshadowing an impending death, so...I'm sure that is not the reason it was written, and the words posted there.
I hope Dario is Ok.
The painting he did on that frame is awsome, and hey I hold an art degree from an art school!

[Tom Byrnes]

I see what you wrote about Dario as being filled with love and concern......for both the man and his work. I hope that you don't change a single word unless Dario himself feels you should.

It's solid writing and I enjoyed and related to every word.

Thank you.

Dave

Brendan,

I agree with Dave and the many others completely. A very compassionate and caring writing.

Thank you.

Tom

[soulspinner]

I want to buy bikes made by people that care as much as he does.
I want to buy bikes from people that care as much as you do.

People who care a lot will occasionally expose too much, but the rewards are worth the risk.

Just my opinion...

Well put...Peace, success and happiness to you and Dario...

[Kahuna]

Yeah, what Dave Kirk said.

Signed,

A loyal CC customer/fan.

I see what you wrote about Dario as being filled with love and concern......for both the man and his work. I hope that you don't change a single word unless Dario himself feels you should.

It's solid writing and I enjoyed and related to every word.

Thank you.

Dave

[michael white]

dear Brendan,

I'm a writer and a bike-lover. I have lusted after Pegoretti's and almost bought them to go along with my Colnago, Cinelli, Merlin etc., and someday probably will.

This is a quick run-through, an unedited response.

I just read your story on DP tonight, and haven't even read all the posts in this thread, but I do have something to say. I don't care about what your customers think, product information, etc. As for product information, the new bike looks to me like easily the most desirable Pegoretti yet, with only the Luigino for competition, and nothing you have said affects that perception. It has the simple essence you see in his frames, along with the impressively over-the-top paint, which he carries off so much more soulfully than the two or three Americans who have ventured in that direction. It's a dreambike.

I think your stuggles have to do with you as a writer. You shouldn't be trying to lavish such meditative and lyrical power on a bike report: you ought to bite the bullet and take a real risk, try writing a profile either for a slick like Outside, or heck, a university literary magazine. Maybe a creative nonfiction essay on the relationship between bikes and painting. You're off on your own too far, too deep, and you can't possibly serve either the bike or your own needs as a writer by limiting yourself to this one outlet you are familiar with. In other words, I think your talent is elsewhere already, and you ought to follow it. Keep your dayjob, but go ahead and let yourself be a real writer if that's what you need to be.

As to Dario, his depression etc. You know, half of that might be just the trade show. How many of those could a real guy like Dario do, especially in Vegas, and keep his dignity at all? And if he's got any family problems, as you hint at, well-- that's just a lot to deal with. But it doesn't mean he's a flame-out like Basquiat, who personally I DON'T idolize much . . . I feel the true artist there is buried beneath some sort of stereotype of tormented genius that obscures more than it reveals. I think that's really what Dario is saying in his response. It's like, look, I'm fine, whatever, but these are bikes, alright? and please judge them on the road. Ultimately, beautiful and functional as they might be, there's a limit to the extent a frameset can replicate some artistic revolution of several decades ago. And I think Dario knows that and would prefer that his schemes be read as good-natured homage. Not that he isn't pushing the art as far as he possibly can; of course he is. But it isn't the same as Basquiat; ultimately, for the designer to have any integrity, he has to know that he's building for the rider, not the collector. It would be demeaning otherwise.

anyway, Brendan, what you've done is certainly interesting. Like Grant Peterson, maybe, or other figures who have more to say than seems necessarily called-for, I wonder if you're just chafing against the perceived limitations of an essentially commercial enterprise; I suppose that really, Dario is the lucky one, because he has that hands-on connection, the actual labor (like Serotta or Sachs) upon which the rest of it, whatever sort of business it turns out to be, is built.

best,
michael

[pdxmech13]

when can I speak this>>???>>