The IF Saga Redux: Fair is Fair

[DWF]

You know I've read through this whole saga more than a few times and frankly, I still don't get it, in fact I think it stinks. I went back through DBRK's presentation of events and I still don't think IF is completely culpable and if IF is not completely culpable, then why isn't there a sharing of responsibility? Why is IF expected to carry the full burden?

DBRK, by your own statements you ordered the bike as a custom and you told IF you wanted the bike to be stiff in the rear end. You go on to state the IF's ride is "sublime" so obviously IF's design and tube specs was dead on the money. As the builder, they made the change to meet your request for the stiff rear tri, one which I agree with as the Foco stays are whippy at best. You later go on about the difference between a custom and a "bespoke" bike (you lost me there) but basically is seems that according to your logic that since you ordered a custom you feel that you should be able to request specific ride characteristics but restrain the builder to use the standard tubes? Again, those Foco stays are counter to your request a stiff rear triangle. To further this point, what other tube dimensions or types, sizes, butting profiles or gauges did you specify, if any? Did you leave those up to the builder's discretion?

To sum this up, you ordered a custom bike and in doing so you specified certain ride characteristics; IF complied in their design & build and by your own words created you a bike that rides sublimely. Now that they've done so, you expect them to replace this wonderfully riding bike with a new bike that they felt, as the builders, would compromise your ride expectations and on top of that, to add insult to injury, you want them to incur the total cost of replacement?

What I find truly distasteful about this whole episode, is that basically this turned into a "support DBRK" rally and letter writing campaign to IF, with people writing that IF would lose them and many others as future customers, literally threatening their business to extort them into an agreement that they obviously did not feel was their fault when this situation started. I find it unbelievable that you would use your clout on this forum to publicly punish IF in a disagreement that YOU SHARE responsibility in and your childish statements that you want to rid yourself of your other IF bikes ("I'm done with all things IF") to further press your position. Nowhere do I see IF on this forum presenting their side of the story, their notes, emails, interview results with you about the design & build what was agreed to and what was not; proper decorum wouldn't allow them to.

DBRK, you need to man up to your portion of the responsibility and if you were to do so, you would not allow IF to carry the entire burden.

To state the obvious, I am not affiliated with IF in any way, but fair is fair and by everything that I've read, fair is a far throw away with what's happened concerning this episode.

[Sandy]

DWF,

I am most impressed with the strength and conviction of your stand relative to the problem with dbrk and IF. It did turn into a "support dbrk" rally, probably for several reasons. First, dbrk is easily one of the most respected contributors on this forum. This high respect is given because of his prolific, extremely well articulated, direct, insightful, and helpful posts, always given in a friendly and totally respectful manner, with substantive content, each and every time. Secondly, many participants simply think that he was correct in all that he said and that IF was totally wrong.

I certainly agree with you in that, from what I read, there obviously is a joint blame, with dbrk's portion being every bit that of IF's, probably a little more. The catalogue may say one thing, but dbrk did communicate to IF that he wanted a stiff rear, the bike was custom, and IF delivered the stiff rear that he requested. Dbrk places a great deal of emphasis on the aesthetics of a bike and there was an obvious lack of harmony between a stiff rear that IF provided, based on dbrk's request, and the look of the bike. Both probably failed in not having a spec sheet signed off by both parties.

I do believe because of dbrk's extremely high esteem within the Serotta community and because there really is a closeness and kinship between Serotta owners and forum participants, dbrk receved such a high level of support. That is really a great part of the forum. In this instance, perhaps that caused thinking that tended to support rather than not support dbrk.

It is dbrk's right to want to sell anything that he wants and that includes anything IF.

I don't think that dbrk in any way made any demands on IF. He certainly had his perception of what was right and what was wrong, but I really don't believe that HE demanded what he ultimately received from IF. Dbrk certainly was upset about the position that IF took ininitially and he did want to sell the frameset, which is his right. Saying that he wanted to use his clout in the situation is really not fair. The situation evolved.

You are absolutely correct, in my opinion, that there is an obvious joint culpability in the problem, and therefore there should be a joint sharing of the cost of the replacement. IF is the seller and smart sellers try to make buyers happy and often absorb the loss.

I sometimes do not agree with dbrk, as he certainly knows, and I am usually one of the few that will post such disagreements, probably because of the stature that dbrk has deservedly acquired within the forum and elsewhere.

Dbrk certainly has my respect, as do you. Your bold position is not so easily taken here on the forum and I commend you on your strength in communicating it. I agree with the basic essence of it, but don't think that dbrk, himself, was trying to use his clout. He was simply upset. I also think that he was certainly partially wrong, and a larger part of that than most, other than you, communicated.


Sandy

PS- If you and I are sent away from Serotta Land, will we be able to find a safe place to visit??????? :) :)

[saab2000]

DWF,

You should never have mentioned that the foco stays are not stiff!! Now I will never be satisfied with my new Strong. What you don't know does not hurt you but from now on I will be wondering, "what if I had requested..........."

FWIW, the new Strong is great and the lack of stiffness has not slowed me down nearly as much as the 20 lbs of beer/pizza by-products (fat cells) which have attached themselves to my body. :D

[Roy E. Munson]

I couldn't agree more with anything ever said on this forum as much as I agree with DWF on this matter.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . would have been better delivered offline. I see little practical benefit from posting it online--except to start an argument.

BBDave

[Smiley]

As an ex-bike rep and having read dbrk's accounts of his story side I always know there is another side of the story left untold. I questioned how a custom frame can get built without a sign off but since our esteemed professor did business direct with IF as he stated since there was NO shop nearby he dealt directly with the good folks at IF and the middleman the LBS was left out of the picture and had we had a dealer maybe this issue never arises , the dealer catches the OS stays or the dealer EATS the bad bike and has a new one built for the good doctor brooks . In anycase it was really nice to have the Forum community rally behind dbrk because he is a good guy but if anyone threatened to withould future IF business because of this episode well thats akin to BLACKMAIL without them knowing both sides of the issues and I can't go for that tactic . For dbrk's sake I am glad it got resolved and I thank you DWF for taking another look at the story as IF never had a chance to tell their side even if they would be right or wrong.

[Roy E. Munson]

Now why would this have been better left offline - because it may start an arguement???? Is this an internet forum or a dating service? Part of the reason for the existence of such venues is for open discussion, not so we can all sit around jerking each other off about our bikes and all the scratch we throw at them.

[dbrk]

DWF,
Without the slightest rancour I believe your argument is utterly mistaken. I have indeed accepted culpability. Let's be clear here: IF _explicitly_ states the tubing they use. Do _they_ think the FOCO chainstays are whippy at best? Of course not. Why would they use them at all? I will say this once more since it seems not to have penetrated: given my size, strength and weight the difference between these chainstays will be negligible or none at all. If you think differently go ahead: bikes are filled with impressions.
IF says they use one thing and they used another, that is a fact. Also, you were not privvy to my conversations with them and I modestly resent your suggestion that I asked for anything or that I expressed myself in anyway that placed culpability on them or that relieved myself of culpability. As I actually articulated, I accepted culpability and I did not ask for one thing from IF. I merely expressed being disappointed that in my conversation with them they (1) did not grasp the notion that aesthetic changes are bike changes of substance (you can make your it's-only-the-ride-that-counts argument even though _they_ did not) and (2) they had advertized one thing and done another. I also said plainly and perhaps a dozen times that I believed they acted in good faith and made their version of their best bike given my "stiff rear end" request. If you think that Foco stays would not accomplish this I think you are basically wrong, for reasons already cited.
If you don't know the difference between "custom" and "bespoke" and you are a bike builder then I would warmly recommend a note to RichardSachs or even to me: we'd be glad to explain. It has been explained on this Forum and the old one; I'd recommend some research on your part to understand this very important difference, especially if you purport to be in the bike building or metallurgy industry. Many talented designers don't torch bikes: Petersen, even Kellogg, so that has nothing to do with it, just fyi.

As for the good members of this Forum expressing support or articulating themselves in however way they choose, I think everyone (perhaps except you?) here knows that I asked for no such rally, that I said I was embarrassed that persons had written to IF without my knowledge, that I did not expose this issue for any such reasons. I posted here for two already stated reasons (the college professor in me urges you to read more closely): 1. to place for sale a bicycle that I was disapponted in for reasons (which you may personally not like, that's your business) that included the simple fact that IF held me wholly responsible initially and 2. to alert those who order their _custom_ bike from them to specify the tubes _precisely_ if that is what they chose to do. I thought I had done that but I made the mistake of assuming that their advertizing was their choice. I should have thought otherwise, clearly. So should anyone else. Is that not useful information? I never asked for one thing from either this Forum (other than Buy this bike, please!!!) or from IF. Read carefully, please.

Last, I have been, believe it or not, very aware of my culpability in this matter. And after I rode the bike they made initially for me yesterday and arrived home deeply impressed with the ride but still unimpressed that their choice 1. made such a difference and 2. doesn't really rattle my chimes aesthetically in every respect, I felt still like I had done a wrong. To make that wrong right, to honor IF's work and their sincerity, to get the bike I _really_ wanted (and the one I thought I asked for and had every reason to believe would be so), I ordered another. I did not insist on any favors. I merely said that I would not be returning this bike and that I am placing an order for another. This satisfies my conscience, it tells IF that I love their bikes and honor their effort. And it was done before you posted your remarks, so it has _not one thing to do with proving anything to anyone_ but rather is a matter of my own sense of justice and conscience and honoring a fine company.

I believe I have accepted my responsiblities but I suppose I also believe that I don't need you to point them out to me.

dbrk

[Redturbo]

My view on this as a biz owner is that the internet has changed how biz is done. I think it turned out being relatively inexpensive positive advertising for IF. If not for the net there could of been a much different out come.
I think from what I read IF was a little slow in reacting to Douglas in a positive manner, which gave him the bad taste in his mouth over the whole thing. I would of probably of offered Douglas a large discount on the bike and say go ahead and ride it, lets us know what you think, we will revisit it next week. Again I'm just working with what I've read.

turbo, who has much respect for dbrk and IF. :beer:

[soulspinner]

I have two bikes with Foco chainstays. One is with 42 length the other is 41. I think my compact Strong with 41 has all the stiffness this 165 pound rider would ever need and I know of peple with 10s of thousands of miles on their foco frames that have had no problems. I dont expect it to last like a ti frame but I dont think these chainstays are giving up soon. Got a lifetime warrantee if they do. I have never ridden a nicer riding steel frame, including the highly regarded Colnago I used to own. My two pennies.

[lanton]

Wow, if this really goes through - 2 custom bikes identical except for the chainstays - that will be the kind of test comparison situation I've always dreamed of hearing about. Thanks for sharing this valuable experience so far, hope there'll be more to come.
I'm also interested in an IF, mostly because what I've heard about there responsive handling, but those beautiful chainstays are a major plus too.

[bostondrunk]

I think their -is- some blame to be passed around here, and agree with Roy (although I'm ashamed of it...) that if its OK for DBRK to completely and publicy -slam- IF, then it is OK for DWF to express an opinion.
How would people here feel if this was a situation with Serotta and someone publicly complained here?!
I think it is OK that DBRK is unsatisfied with his bike, but there was no need to do it publicly (isn't that the sort of stuff that shuts down forums??? could IF contact Ben and say 'what the f^%$??'). As well, I find it completely CHILDISH that anyone other than DBRK would write IF and 'suggest' that they do as DBRK says 'or else face losing business'. What is this, the freaking mafia??!!

[dbrk]

Did I publicly slam IF? I think not but if that is an impression left then I entirely apologize. I have tried very carefully _not_ to slam IF but to explain that they made a choice that I believe I had every reason to believe would not be the choice and that their initial solution was to have me sell the bike and they replace it at cost. This was a fair solution proposed on their part if you think that I had no reason to expect the tubes they advertize and if you think that leaving it entirely to me is equally fair. But that is not how it turned out. I posted the bike for sale, _that_ is what I did. I did not start this with some rant about how I dislike IF because I don't!! I admire them!! I have throughout expressed my respect! I want another one!! I just ordered it, plain and simple. We really will have a comparison, I promise to be fair.

The Internet has changed business, no doubt. If I had had to deal with a dealer I would not have ordered the bike in the first place. I am really done with that, personally. It's just not my cup of tea and I serious doubt that the particular issue that occurred in my case would have been on any check sheet. That is precisely the reason to raise it in a place where people love bicycles. Why? Because bicycle companies, like IF, Serotta, whomever, need to know that their design/engineering choices affect the design/aesthetic choices and should make that an issue they address on just such check sheets. As for my disinterest in dealer networks, that's my own business and others love their dealers. I have no problem with that. This has been illuminating even if it has not always been irenic. And that's not a bad thing.

dbrk

[Roy E. Munson]

"I just got this brand new, BRAND new IF Crown Jewel SE, made of a mix 853 and True Temper. It measures 59cm c-c with a 58cm top tube, the headtube is 19.5cm, it has 1.5d of slope to eliminate headtube extension. It is painted a beautiful pearl white with black/yellow decals. There's a picture in the Custom gallery. The angles are quite relaxed, something like 72.5sta/73hta. Fork is an uncut Ouzo Pro painted to match.

Why sell when I just paid $2340 delivered? Because IF used Reynolds chainstays rather than the OS Foco. I thought the Foco were standard but apparently they are not. It's just not what I wanted and I suppose I should have been _perfectly_ clear. IF will not take the bike back. Lesson learned. Blowout price here is $1600 plus shipping. I will include the CK black installed headset. Shipping is $65 insured.

BRAND NEW.

I'm just disgusted. Someone buy this bike, please"



I think this is a little more than posting a bike for sale.

[Ahneida Ride]

The IF site clearly says Foco stays. If changes are to be made it is
IF's Responsibility to notify the customer. It's that simple.

Again. The IF site says Foco stays. IF did not notify Dbrk
apriori, this IF specification stands.

Words have meaning, well at least they did.


Did IF supply a spec sheet and have Douglas sign off on it ?
Did this spec sheet indicate the switch to Reynolds?
I think both are low probability events.

IF should be estatic that I mailed them. Would they perfer that
I remain discrete and formulate a position to silently remove IF from my list
of builders? Ben allow us to air dirty laundry on Serotta right here on his
nickel, and that is a primaty reason why I purchased a Serotta.
The good, bad and ugly on Serotta is right here for all to witness.

Finally, a bike is about both ride and asthetics.

[dbrk]

A few interesting points. To Roy: Posting the bike for sale expressing my own frustration is not the same as slamming IF, especially given the fact that IF basically told me that the best they would do is sell me another at a good price if and when I sold this one. Again, I may have expressed frustration because being disgusted is a feeling that accompanied the situation and in that respect I might have withheld this sentiment to be entirely neutral. Your position is hardly neutral either, one might add.
But IF literature says one thing and delievered another: does this not at least leave half of the issue with them?

As for people who wrote to me encouragingly or who wrote to IF. I am did not ask nor solicit in any way any efforts on my behalf to IF. Gosh, I am positively embarrassed by it because I feel like I can take care of myself. But people who did write are also free to express themselves and I fully support such rights. I don't question their motives or their actions because I believe that they too have their good reasons, as for example the sound thinking expressed by Ahneida Ride.

What is _entirely_ appropriate here or in any public Forum is reasonable, thoughtful, well-argued discourse and, for the most part, that is what we have. Again I am grateful to Ben and Co for the opportunity to meet such persons even when we disagree. Kudos to Roy and DWF for expressing themselves with conviction; arguing clearly is helpful for all the reasons we are not mere brutes but human.

dbrk

[Roy E. Munson]

dbrk,

It was the "I'm just disgusted" that throws off your classified ad.

I agree with you 100% that the letter writing campaign is not your doing, just people sticking their nose's in business that is not their's. All this "potential customer" bs. Well, you're all "potential murderer's" too, should I call the cop's and alert them?

[bostondrunk]

Roy,
Don't tell the cops about me being pontentially smashed again tonight....I don't need that kind of trouble...<burp>
I think DBRK kind of forfeited his expectation of advertised tubing when he asked for custom stiffness (I think you asked this, yes?).
But again, I think the real stupid thing here is everyone sticking their nose in and writing IF.
DBRK, if I were you, I'd be embarrased too, because of what people wrote to IF. PERSONALLY, I'd be on the phone to them to appologize, but thats only my opinion.

<burp> roy, what beer do you recommend, Colt or Schmidts Gay?

[dbrk]

I agree with Roy that my "disgusted " remark was over the top. I should have remained more dispassionate and reserved in the for sale. You are quite correct.

I have indeed called IF and apologized. My sense of culpability is honest, I hope that is as clear to everyone here as it has been to me! Geez, I need to sleep at night and my own standards of decency require me to offer my apologies directly and personally for any "harm" I may have caused.

I am making amends and getting something wonderful in the process, another IF.

Thanks for the very constructive input.

dbrk

[bostondrunk]

Good job (calling them). Now the next thing I think you should do is buy a Merckx Team SC in Lotto colors, size 53 or 54, and then post it for sale at half price. :bike:

[bulliedawg]

I wonder why IF's literature and web site are so inaccurate? It isa small company, barely making ends meet by my understanding, and probably changed its Crown Jewel description before the marketing materials ran out. Rather than throw away a couple thousand dollars worth of materials, they're likely using the old materials, which are causing confusion.

[Climb01742]

at the same time douglas has been going thru his situation with IF, i've been having a ti CJ built to. and i've gotten to know IF and matt bracken some. IF is eleven people. eleven people who are scratching by so they can do one thing--"make kick ass bikes" in matt's words. these eleven people care a lot about making the best frames they possibly can. they were actually trying to give douglas what he wanted -- a very stiff rear triangle -- when they chose reynolds chainstays. there is NO doubt they should have communicated that to douglas. the communication was flawed. but i don't believe their motives were. they were sincerely trying to build a customer the best frame they could. the good thing is, stuff has been learned from this situation. customers need to communicate to their builders, and builders need to communicate to their customers. but i think there are 11 hearts in teh right place over at IF. just like there are dozens and dozens of hearts in teh right place at serotta. a mistake was made in execution. but the intent was all good.

[dbrk]

Again, much to IF's credit they said to me that they gained a better awareness and understanding of their offering and presentation, especially on the webiste and in their literature. They are younger folks---none yet forty counts as younger in my world---and they said just that and that this has been "an eye opener for them too". They are thoughtful and gracious people and I have tried to act likewise. I mean only to honor IF, Serotta, and all the builders of great bikes who have to deal with the likes of us enthusiasts (particularly one as apparently fussy as me). I said to IF, at this level of interest the considerations of ride and the details of aesthetics are not separable and must be made perfectly clear. They entirely agreed and said they had acquired a better and deeper understanding. I believe they consulted with Serotta who is the experienced leader in this respect because Serotta has been so long pleasing people and understands the issues deeply indeed.

For my part, I clarified the second bike this morning and beieve we've got it all clear. I've owned a zillion bikes and I'd say I've had very, very few problems or issues---at least not ones in which I felt _totally_ responsible (like ordering the wrong size or some such thing). This has worked out fine.

To boston drunk: If you get can get me drunk enough, I'd likely in a fit of friendship order that Merckx for you. I like Pilsner Urquell, btw. A lot. I don't drink much/it/any anymore but I really like Urquell...

dbrk

[SBash]

PROBLEM:
1). Lack of communication.
2). Advertising incorrect.
3). Customer not satisfied.

RESULTS:
1). Forum Support.
2). IF corrected problem.
3). Customer satisfied.

SB
PS: I think i will buy a IF now!

[Sandy]

This post is not directly related to the original post:

Someone in one of the related threads concerning dbrk's problem asked how the IF tig welds LOOKED compared to those of the CIII. I think that the CIII tig welding looks very nice, but no where near the beauty of the IF welds. I have seen several of the IF bikes recently during rides and I was very impressed by the look of the welds. I have a Serotta Ottrott ST and I would place in order, from best looking welding to worst looking, the bikes in this order:
1. IF
2. CIII
3. Ottrott ST

The differences from IF to CIII and Ottrott ST are quite large. The Spectrum bikes that I have seen probably even go ahead of the IF for the look of the welds.

Back to welding my new false teeth,

Torch Sandy

[Doc Austin]

. . . . I see little practical benefit from posting it online--except to start an argument.

Welcome to the internet. :)

If I had had to deal with a dealer I would not have ordered the bike in the first place....... As for my disinterest in dealer networks, that's my own business and others love their dealers.

Where do I start? I can't offer a comment on your dellimea because I can't figure out who "IF" is. I hope it works out for you though.

However, I've had the same bike shop for 27 years, and the same mechanic for 15. I never tell Tony anything, I just drop the bike off and it comes back perfect and exactly the way I want it, right down to my own peculiar little preference for the way the brakes are adjusted. I don't tell him anything. He just knows because we've worked together so long

After 27 years it isn't business anymore. It's a personal relationship with the owners, the sales people and the service staff. Sometimes I drop in just to see everyone. I'de like to ride with them, but they would smoke me. And they would give me alot of good natured grief about it too.

If you don't like bike shops I guess you haven't found one like mine, but I hope you do.

[Sandy]

DWF welds or has welded bikes so he may have a producer's perspective. Dbrk is a cyclist and collector of fine bicycles.So he may have a consumer's perspective. Most of those who responded herein also have a consumer's perspective. Dbrk probably cares as much about the aesthetics of a bike as the ride. I care much more about the ride than the aesthetics.

Different perspectives for different folks. Different bikes for different folks. But we are all cyclists. Peace to the great family of cyclists and Serotta Forum members and viewers. :)

Peaceful Sandy ;)

[dbrk]

Again, these are very interesting and helfpul comments. I am prodigiously grateful for the opportunity to hear different views.

Many who have never welded or brazed have designed bicycles and great ones, truly great ones. I am a consumer but, truth to tell, I have designed and fitted others, not just myself. Am I less "professional" because I earn my real living as a University professor, writer, and seminar giving philosopher, as it were? We are students of cycling, all who are interested. Like many others I have invested thousands of hours in this study and I've a fair bit of experience. I feel no disqualification in comparison to others in terms of bicyle design or fit. I don't sell my services in this respect but neither do I think that because I don't I am somehow less qualified than many who do. I defer to greatness and that is rare, exceptional, hard to come by in any field. I feel like I know a lot of great beings in the cycling business but I also know that I happy I don't have to make my living in it. It's hard!!! It's troublesome! It has to deal with people like me!! Yikes!!

dbrk

[hypnos]

IMHO, the professor's original FOR SALE post was an indirect, although unintended, slam toward IF. Was there really any need to elaborate on why he was selling? Was there any flaw in craftsmanship that would prevent the right person from truly enjoying this frame? I understand that Douglas has a keen eye for aesthetics, but, to my unfamiliar eye, that frame/fork combo rocks.

As for discussing dissatisfaction or disagreements with companies, is it necessary to name the company? Although I do think this kind of thread makes more interesting reading than another discussion about the best chain lube, many of the replies/responses/actions made me cringe. Comments like "I am DONE with all things IF" and "I purging. I just want it gone, along with the new one." and "I cannot recommend them any longer" sound a bit like a temper tantrum, and are not constructive. With regard to people sending hostile emails to IF..... well, enough has been said already.

I hope my comments have not offended DBRK, or anyone else, as no offense was intended.

Jeff (who views DBRK as our Cycling Sensei and one hell of a great guy)

[Sandy]

So we form a bicycle club with you, Kevan, BBDave, Oracale, the Jerk, Roy, DWF, Sandy, Keno, Dr.Doofus, Smiley, Flydhest, and a few others. We decide to collectively purchase a bike for the club, Serotta's Super Spinners. We have a total of $1125.14 in our club. We start going to independent shops as a group to test ride, size, and purchase a very high end fully equipped bike with our money.

How many shops would simply close after our visit? How many owners would seek psychiatric help after our visit? How many would nicely ask us to leave? How many would tell us to leave shortly after we arrived? How many would tell us to leave as soon as we entered the door? How many would pull the shades down and put out the Shop is Closed sign just before we arrived?

It would certainly be a scarey thought!

Money Mirman
Treasurer
Serotta's Super Spinners

[Johny]

This post is not directly related to the original post:

Someone in one of the related threads concerning dbrk's problem asked how the IF tig welds LOOKED compared to those of the CIII. I think that the CIII tig welding looks very nice, but no where near the beauty of the IF welds. I have seen several of the IF bikes recently during rides and I was very impressed by the look of the welds. I have a Serotta Ottrott ST and I would place in order, from best looking welding to worst looking, the bikes in this order:
1. IF
2. CIII
3. Ottrott ST

The differences from IF to CIII and Ottrott ST are quite large. The Spectrum bikes that I have seen probably even go ahead of the IF for the look of the welds.

Back to welding my new false teeth,

Torch Sandy

Hey Sandy,
Someone is me. I actually think that Serotta welding can still be pretty good looking, however, depending on who welds your bike (unfortunately, we do not get to choose...). Thanks.

[OldDog]

I like that.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :bike:

[Kevan]

CAN WE STOP THIS ALREADY?!

Hey, the weekend's coming. OOO-ahhhh.... whaddaya gonna do?

Sans, let's back up there bub. I told you I had exactly $1125.14 in my bank account, before rent; where's your contribution, as well as, the others?!

[Sandy]

[Jeff Weir]

Man, this thread has forced me to go out and buy a dictionary, just to be able to understand what is being said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevan]

something constructive was accomplished! :D

[DWF]

Last, I have been, believe it or not, very aware of my culpability in this matter. And after I rode the bike they made initially for me yesterday and arrived home deeply impressed with the ride but still unimpressed that their choice 1. made such a difference and 2. doesn't really rattle my chimes aesthetically in every respect, I felt still like I had done a wrong. To make that wrong right, to honor IF's work and their sincerity, to get the bike I _really_ wanted (and the one I thought I asked for and had every reason to believe would be so), I ordered another. I did not insist on any favors. I merely said that I would not be returning this bike and that I am placing an order for another. This satisfies my conscience, it tells IF that I love their bikes and honor their effort. And it was done before you posted your remarks, so it has _not one thing to do with proving anything to anyone_ but rather is a matter of my own sense of justice and conscience and honoring a fine company.


DBRK, I’m going to let the rest of your remarks go and cut down to your last paragraph. It may mean little to you, but I think that in your reflection, you made the right & proper decision. I think it would be more right, for you and IF to meet halfway, but I’m impressed with the integrity & value of your final analysis. I'm laying money that IF will make every effort to share the burden of this unfortunate episode with you.

[woolly]

I really want to know the difference between "custom" and "bespoke", and whether or not this is really widely known and accepted terminology within the bike industry. What's the true difference, & where's the demarcation point between the two? I'm curious! I'm also guessing that most people interpret "custom" to also include a healthy dose of what DBRK is categorizing as "bespoke". But I could be wrong. Please enlighten me.

A personal observation - If you are ordering a custom bike, never assume anything. I don't care if you're calling it "custom", or "bespoke", if's it's "non-standard", you shouldn't make assumptions on attributes of the bike that are important to you. Be specific and double-check to make sure that you're really getting what you wanted or expected. This is not just a jab at Douglas here, it's just common sense. My opinion is that once you have started making assumptions, you have accepted responsibility.

I AM glad that this truly is coming to an amicable resolution.

But for the people that sent extortion letters to IF - shame on you.

- Chris

[vaxn8r]

I think this thread needed to happen, despite much of the redundancy. Thanks DWF for kicking it off and then laying back to let it unfold.

There now, don't we all feel better?

Maybe we have all, myself included, learned a lesson about the internet, communication, our own behaviors and the, sometimes, dramatic impact they can have on a forum such as this.

[Climb01742]

i wonder what eddief (i believe it was) thinks of all this? on the old forum, wasn't he put thru the wringer in a somewhat similiar situation?

[shaq-d]

i agree with DWF's original post. not sure where DWF stands now. the aftermath in terms of e-mails/support/etc. is positive from a loyalty ethic, but not from fairness. it would be reasonable and somewhat predictable that peeps would speak up for DBRK, who's obviously well liked/friends with most of you. as such dbrk's original post to sell was not without intention or reasonably foreseeable consequences, of which we've seen. dbrk insists he takes some responsbility, but the post/classified ad itself, the action itself, doesn't seem to reflect that. his intentions as communicated by that was to get what he wanted, not what he thought was fair. i think IF did the right thing throughout the whole process. a good custom bike is custom to the n'th degree; they build the best bike they can given the expressed desires of teh customer, and these desires dictated no focos. they should not be blamed. they went beyond the call (probably as a result of the e-mails/support/etc., but the real reason we'll never know).

i might differ a little from DWF's first post in that i'm not saying this is bad; i prefer the loyalty ethic over the fairness one, for better and for worse. but i agree that, in terms of fairness, more responsbility and restraint was called for in dbrk's classified ad/post.

as for DWF's right to post, that issue isn't even worth touching. everyone has such a right, within the limits of the serotta forum rules.

sd

[dbrk]

Watching an assessment of my moral credibility is pretty interesting. I never thought raising this issue had to do with my probity but I suppose that too is clearly on some person's minds. I was indeed angry when I posted the bike for sale and I apologize for expressing that in the context of the for sale. I am hardly perfect, that's for sure, nor do I wish to rationalize or justify my anger. I prefer hypnos way of putting it. I was simply angry and made it clear; I had my reasons, and no expression of such anger is ever really very becoming. But for whatever failure, ethical or otherwise, there was on my part something constructive happened for the sake of others. You see, IF has said that they will change their website information to reflect the fact that what they say about their bikes explicitly is, in fact, what they do. Now others can be assured in the future that the tubes they advertise are the tubes they use. And, second, I believe that IF now understands that form and function are issues that connect more deeply for some than for others and that they should consider that as a matter of their presentation.

When something happens to someone it far more interesting to see how it might effect others in a substantive way than as a matter of passing moral evaluation. Everyone is free to express their sentiments and even their judgments.

dbrk

[dbrk]

The difference between custom and bespoke may not be widely understood in the bicycle industry the way it is in other areas in which it is more commonly used, say for example in the construction of tailored suits. It is not, however, unknown in the bicycle industry though the two terms are misused commonly in more cases than they are understood. It's not like I am making this up! This is a real difference and it appears to be quite helpful.

A custom maker is one who does as you specify and who works with the materials or ideas that they explicitly state they will use. There are at least two sorts of "custom" and likely more but I'll stick to two here. The first is the designer's own ideas, their sort of "standard" design, like this season's suit or a given catalogue version of a bicycle. The second involves building _for_ the customer's wishes and, importantly, giving the customer precisely what he asks for. To put it simply, the customer provides primary input in the design and while the custom maker makes suggestions and shows what he has done in the past, the design is done according to the customer's explicit wishes. When I had coats made in India and in Hong Kong, the tailor showed me his fabrics (or...uhhh...tubes) and then I told him what I wanted. He told me that he could do that (or not). If you need more help then the craftsperson helps. If you need all the help in the world you get that, but you _do_ have the option to have it your way if you know what you are doing. And you can resonably expect that what you asked for is what you get. That is custom.

Bespoke is another matter altogether. Here the craftsperson, say the tailor or the bike frame builder, is the master artist, as it were. The master artist asks for information rather than for your design expertise as such and produces his or her notion of how it should come out. When you go to Huntsman and Sons on Saville Row they make you _their_ suit, not anyone that you ask for. This is bespoke, quite different from custom.
The same is true for, say, RichardSachs bicycles. Richie listens to you but he builds the bike _he_ thinks is the one for you---not without your input but certainly one that meets his idea of correct. If you want it _your_ way, you go elsewhere. With bespoke the craftsperson states the boundaries and acts to suit his (or her) notion of the "correct" result. With custom, the customer accepts the outcome of his (or her) input but can expect the craftsperson to do what was requested. It's not always this clear or explicit but it's pretty close.

You may think that I am somehow inventing this idea but I have discussed it with Richie Sachs, Sacha White, Grant Petersen, and countless others in the bike industry for many years. Some folks have never considered more precisely the difference between "custom" and "bespoke" but in other arenas it is a well-understood and quite helpful difference. To make matters only more complicated and subtle, this difference is sometimes a matter of degrees (quantitative) rather than simply qualitative.

The more precisely we convey our ideas the more accountable we become for meanings. (This being a gratuitous aside...)

In my own case regarding bicycle design and my preferences, there are very few folks I would go to for a bespoke bike. Why? Because I don't think I would like what most people do over what I would do. When I go to Mike Barry, Richie Sachs, or Grant Petersen I give very little input though I think they are happy to ask what I think. In other situations I have gone to a bike builder with my own ideas and ended up quite happy (and when I have not and it's entirely my own doing, then that's that.)

dbrk

[shaq-d]

dbrk, i don't know you enough to judge your character at all, and of the situation i only know what has been posted, not seeing what actually was said between IF and you, what forms passed, what words used. so i'm only talking about the kind of thing i would conclude from the little i've seen. but yeah, character is always judged ethically, broadly construed, in every situation... you got angry, and expressed yourself, probably without thinking of the "consequences", and the rest is history.

i guess it is these consequences that bothered me more (and, i must say, i experienced relief when i read DWF's original post, as it expressed _something_ i felt but could not post), is that the many responses in your ad-post seemed to border on lobbying for a very grey cause, for reasons of loyalty and friendship. if i was the recipient of such loyalty/friendship i would of course be very proud and happy; as an observer, it's much different. the e-mails that were sent and the proclamations seemed to verge on blackmail; given the serotta forum is probably filled with higher income bike buyers, of which IF, a small company, would benefit from, the implicit threat that said bike buyers would not patronize IF as a result of your issue was strong. to my eye this is equivalent to strong-arming, lobbying, blackmail, etc. for those who think i'm going overboard, even if this was not the reason for IF's final positive decision, the flavour was distasteful...

it is much the same feeling i get for people who lobby hard for causes they have no understanding of: see mcdonald's now non-recyclable packages. here the cause is very grey as you readily admit... and yet the battle was fought, so to speak, without hesitation. good for friendship, not so good for "fairness".

i hope i don't alienate myself with you guys here; this is my favourite road biking forum, even if much of what i do is just lurk.

sd

[Climb01742]

shaq--i think you express your opinions with intelligence and respect, which is exactly the hallmark of this forum. i'm glad this thread has brought out a broader range of opinions than many posts. particularly the differing opinions. dissenting opinions are sometimes subtly and not so subtly discouraged here. (just ask roy munson.) which i regret. respectful dissent is healthy, illuminating, challenging and honestly sometimes just fun. as long as dissent doesn't sink into rancor, personal attacks or just plain anger, i think the forum is stronger for it.

and i hope i'm not speaking out of turn here, but i do know that IF felt, to some extent, "blackmailed". douglas, if i may presumptuous enough to say i "know" your character, i firmly believe that that was never douglas' intent. far from it. but once the internet ball got rolling, that is what happened. maybe it's the choas theory at work. or the mysterious chain reaction of unintended consequences, but all this began with two entities -- douglas and IF -- both going into something with the best of intentions. two pebbles were dropped into a pond. man, who knew were the ripples would end up?

[victoryfactory]

This discussion has been fun and informative. Can I relate my experience?
One year ago I ordered a Concours CS After doing everything I could think of to get the exact bike I wanted with the dealer and Serotta, the final result was not 100 pecent satisfying.

I decided that I wanted a slightly different geometry, handling and wanted to go back to Ti seatstays because I actually thought the carbon stays made the bike ride stiffer I also did not like the matte ti finish and decided I wanted the polish.

To make a long story a little shorter, I ordered another bike (Legend) with the tweaks that I coveted. I like that bike better in every way.

Now.. do I blame the fitter? do I blame Serotta? do I blame myself?
No, No, and No.

As a matter of fact I won't be surprised if one day I'm riding down the road and it occurs to me that this bike is not optimum and I should do it over again.

What's my point?
It seems like, for some of us, our custom bike desires have crossed over into a partly subjective area, not unlike high end stereo, wine, fine cars, etc. maybe we are never going to be satisfied, because we are chasing an ideal.

This makes it hard for the custom high end bike builder who when he contracts to make you a new bike never knows if he is dealing a reasonable individual or a nut (guilty as charged) who's ultimate goal is a moving target.

On second thought, I do blame Serotta, IF, Seven etc. In the old days you just straddled the top tube and if it didn't crush yer privates, the bike fit. Who knew these custom builders would start so much trouble.

Victory Factory

[bostondrunk]

Actually, I believe according to the French Fit, crushing of the family jewels is a requirement when stradling the top tube.

[dbrk]

boston drunk has uncovered the secret reason why I coined the term "French Fit" (which may not be ideal, but that's okay...).

There is an old joke: What do the English, Americans, and the French really have in common? They all love France and they all hate the French. badambum. Okay, take that as a obnoxious joke, not merely a matter of self-loathing and the rest. But when your top tube crushing your privates is _not_ a serious concern to you (actually it happens not to me one of importance to me), then you are not only French Fit, you may be an honorary Frenchman. (Two weak efforts at humor in one paragraph.)

off to NYC for yoga this weekend, so no riding, :-(

dbrk
toujours sans bananes

[Climb01742]

douglas, this weekend in new york, when ordering in a restuarant, remember to be specific... :D

ps: it's a joke, people.

[bostondrunk]

at least the jewels will have time to heal in NY!! Well, depending on the activities!!!
Anybody see the OLN special on Lance last night? Looked like he was spreading about half a container of Assos but lube on his chamois! I guess for 6 hours in the saddle it helps to have something to ease the pain..

[Climb01742]

think they could have gotten in a few more shots of trek frames? jimmeny christmas...

[Roy E. Munson]

It seems like, for some of us, our custom bike desires have crossed over into a partly subjective area, not unlike high end stereo, wine, fine cars, etc. maybe we are never going to be satisfied, because we are chasing an ideal.

I think you may be right. I was driving my Mercury Topaz to the local liquor store the other day listening to the kickin 8-track player. Well, I picked up my paper bag full of money I bummed off others and got my bottle of Night Train and stopped in the alley for a wizz and a swig with my buddies who live there in a cardboard box. Well, this bottle of Night Train wasn't doing it because we guzzled it and a bottle of Head and Shoulder's and not one person passed out! I marched right back in there and demanded a new bottle, or else all my buds from the alley were coming in to demand a new bottle. They gave us a new bottle and told us to get the fock out!! Everyone was happy in the end. Amazing similarities to the IF situation, and victoryfactory's appreciation of the finer things in life.

[victoryfactory]

DBRK;
If you have time this weekend, there is a small bike show at the NY armory 26th & Lex
Serotta usually attends
Fri 5pm-10:30pm
Sat 11:00am till 6:00pm
http://bicycleshows.us/

VF

[dbrk]

In New York I make a point of getting a decent cannoli. Good cannolis are as rare as warm, dry spring days in western NY and I am _VERY_ particular about the size of the tubes. If you get the tubesize wrong or the baker has the temerity to substitute the tube he (or she) thinks is best, without my consent, then I go ballistic in my usual ways, with a prolixty incommensurate to my actual degree of dismay and dissatisfaction. I beat my hairshirt to threads as I aim for ever greater degrees of self-flaggelation and then I insist that others buy these inferior cannolis, damning them even as I offer up their virtues. But no matter what you do remember the advice of one very devoted patron of bakery goods in The Godfather: "Take the cannolis." I could no longer live happily without cannolis than I could without bicycles. Everyone has their preferences.

dbrk

[bostondrunk]

Roy,
Didn't I see you and your Topaz hangin at the Popeyes Chicken drivethru the other night??? I figured it was you when I heard the Tina Turner tunes blasting and the mavic stickers on your bumper!

[Roy E. Munson]

Was it near the garbage container's? I was looking for some leftovers with some meat still left on the bones and maybe some melted ice and coke to drink. I appreciate fine dining and sipping, you see.

[Climb01742]

douglas, there's a good cannoli place on thompson. and of course in little italy. where's your fav? the hard thing is not having the filling soften up the crust too much, IMO.

[bostondrunk]

Hey, anyone who appreciates a good unfinished chicken leg and 'Private Dancer' by Tina is OK by me.
Hey, some of my Nashbar shorts are worn out. I was gonna throw them away, but if you want, I can send them to you. No bacon strips included.

[Indy Fab]

I've been following this thread since its inception in this and the BFC forum, and it still makes me squirm. First, some background: I have an incredibly high regard for Douglas, both because of what I've seen him post here and because of my personal dealings with him. He is an intelligent, witty, and (most importantly) honorable man. In fact, I wish I could get to know him in person because I think we'd have a lot to chat about.

From his studies of literature throughout many ages and cultures, I know he's aware of the rallying power of words. So I'm surprised that he could ever publicly post an account of his dissatisfaction with a transaction, followed by a for-sale ad that provides a glimpse into his troubled emotional state -- and then believe he is merely informing the cycling community to be specific with the builders of custom bikes.

Douglas, I'll stop speaking to you in the third person now. Please forgive me for saying this, but I'm skeptical of your response that you brought this whole thing up merely as a public service announcement. Yes, I admit there's that component, too. We've all learned to be more specific with our bike builders. What I'm skeptical about is your absolute shock that a groundswell of support was formed around you, some of which resulted in direct communication between your supporters and IF. Could you really not see that as a possibility? I ask you this, and I will accept your answer: do you, when you look deep into your heart, really believe that you weren't using this forum to pressure IF into resolving this matter to your satisfaction? Could you ever envison that someone somewhere wasn't going to make IF aware of this thread?

You're an amazingly bright guy, Douglas. Awesome, really. But could you ever imagine that you could address a community in which you are a prominent and respected member and NOT think they were going to respond exactly the way they did?

Finally, I would wager that at least hundreds of people were exposed to your revelation that you were dissatisfied with your new bike. I would also bet that many of those people formed an opinion in concrete that IF was something less than a desirable company to do business with. So, regardless of the degree to which IF ponies up and makes things right with you, they've still got a number of people out there who've got a bad taste in their mouths. And, from a historical standpoint, no amount of follow-up valentines will ease the minds of many of those who formed an early opinion. It's where psychology meets statistics.

What makes me squirm is that IF is walking away from this whole event down one bike and a lot of future business from people who may only vaguely remember that there's something about IF to be avoided.

There are aspects of IF that really bug me. Their web site is poorly written, at times badly conceived, and shot with typos. From what I read, they seem to go out of their way to cultivate a beer-swilling slacker persona, which doesn't inspire confidence in me. But, all in all, when I bought my Ti Crown Jewel, I found them to be a wonderful company to do business with. When I couldn't find a TCJ to test ride, they offered to ship me one -- at their expense. When I found the dinky swatches on their web site insufficient at helping me choose a color, they sent me a box of painted tubes to make it easier for me. They even sent me follow-up emails to see how I was enjoying my bike. All of which is to say that I think they're a company that wants to please me.

That, in a nutshell, is why this whole thread disturbs me. Because I know -- from my background in marketing -- that there will be a sizable group of people out there who will now never give IF a chance. Sadder still when you think of it this way: in the universe of bike purchases, the market for custom-made bikes is a tiny one. For IF, that already-tiny corner of the universe just got even smaller.

You have every right to be dissatisfied with your bike purchase. It was, after all, not what you were expecting. As for me, the moment you made this a public event, I started to better understand the power of the internet, both for ill and for good.

- Indy Fab (nee My Dog Wally)

[Roy E. Munson]

I would agree that despite all the amicable resolutions and support for IF over the past few days, this incident will stick in most people's mind's and can only adversely affect IF's reputation amongst those that have been following.

Personally, I really can't understand why being pedantic makes one an expert on cycling and bikes, yet many on this forum seem to believe that it does.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Are you guys STILL navel gazing over this?

It's beautiful outside. It's spring. Go for a ride, fer Pete's sakes!

BBDave

[Indy Fab]

Roy,

I think that's an awful thing to say, and I'm ashamed that you attached it to your support of my post.

[Roy E. Munson]

Power of the internet - suck's, doesn't it!!
I think it's awful to use a Serotta hosted forum to smear the reputation, and ultimately, the bottom line of another builder. Whether it was intentional or not, it's done!

[dbrk]

What surprises me is that I am still vulnerable personally to expressing anger in any public way since I know how unconstructive it usually is and yet I concur with those---particularly Indy Fab, hypnos, and Climb who I believe to have been especially articulate. By expressing my dissatisfaction with IF in their initial recommendation, viz., that my dissatisfaction with their best choice for tube choice (made with no further consultation) was entirely my problem, I did them an injustice in responding without much pause. I think there will always be those who do not follow through to the very happy conclusion.

IF is NOT out anything in terms of one bike down. I am not only keeping the bike I received from them, I confirmed the order of a second yesterday with them---this time even more precisely. So while I may have caused some injury to them, for which I have apologized both publicly and personally to them, I have also not in their minds (as much as they said so quite candidly to me) caused any lasting damage. Further, I have attempted to make my amends and to make it clear that their policies have evolved and changed as a result. That may not be all happy but it is constructive.

In response to IndyFab's thoughtful comment, I actually did not believe that my admittedly angry for sale would have evoked notes, calls, or letters to IF. That is part of what made it angry, as I see it. Anger clouds insight. Some may not believe me but, frankly, I care not about how my intentions are signified when it is honesty I prize as a personal standard. To wit, I confess that I did not see it coming: I did not really anticipate others being, as it were, angry out loud to IF on my behalf. Call that naive, stupid, or not very insightful. I might call it all three because I am my own critic, that being at least in part a product of a critical education. I accept this incident as a critical part of a larger education.

But let me also say this, especially to Indy Fab: if I have enough or any or some influence on the ideas of friends and acquaintances to dispose them unfavorably towards IF then I have at least as much influence in making it clear to them that I believe they have acted in a most honorable, generous, and correct fashion. Their response of generosity prompted, what I consider, a reciprocal gesture on my part. I am unwilling to allow them to take any financial loss whatsoever and in ordering a second bike (the first I paid retail for) I have made explicitly clear that I am asking for no special pricing or particular favors. I confess that I did say that if they could get it to me before I left for Italy later in May that I would be most grateful, but I made no conditions at all. I think they should profit. I also think that those who would take my initial comments of disappointment seriously will take my valentines as a sign not merely of contrition but of honest endorsement.
As for whether I "really didn't know" that others would so rally in a way that would cause emails and phones to ring, gosh, I am still naive in some respects. I grew up in an academic and personal environment in which I expected no such help or support though I received plenty. I honor that support but I am stubborn in the notion of being alone and responsible for myself. I took my share of responsibility in this incident to satisfy my conscience. I believe IF has done well by it, no matter if it included things unhappy. Reared deeply in self-sufficiency and happy to accept responsibility, I could stand to learn a few lessons in friendship. For friends do rally to help what they perceive as a matter of friendship. My own experience tells me that this sort of friendship is not as uncommon as my sometimes disspirited self might believe. But I have not acted in bad faith even if some may look upon my actions badly. Friends look well past indiscretions and into character. I have none of the latter to prove and plenty of the former in life to be forgiven.

Thanks further for the thougthful comments. They are much appreciated.

dbrk

[Len J]

although I have grazed, nibbled and thought about it repeatedly.

Indy Fab raises a valid concern however, I would add that the "honerable" way that Douglas quickly commmunicated IF's final solution, will be remembered by as many people as remember the problem.

For me personally, I've never been an IF fan, so I read Douglasas original post as a "glad I never went there" confirmation. Continuing to follow the thread, I learned more about how specific you need to be in a custom order, I also learned that IF has more character than I expected. I will remember that.

I also took note of the fact that Douglas was clear from the beginning that he felt he owned at least part of the responsibility for the problem......It wasn't a typical "I've been screwed, it's all there fault" kind of post. My first impression was that IF technically might or might not be in the wrong....but from a customer service standpoint....they were making a mistake and making a statement (albeit subtly) about what kind of company they were. I was glad to see they responded.......I would have attributed the solution to the groundswell of bad publicity if they worked out an arrangement where Douglas bore part of the solution and they bore the rest. Instead, I think they either made a clever business decision (recognizing that Douglas would publicize the solution) or they demonstrated who they really are by going above and beyond to solve the problem. I suspect it is more of the latter than the former.

The tough part here is that we are all human and when we are hurting or feel wronged, those of us who process out loud share this with our friends.......I believe that that is what Douglas did.......but that is because I have come to know him thru his posts. I suspect that if I were reading this saga having no experience with the parties, it is possible to come away with a jaded view.

I'm glad it all worked out.......and I would recommend IF to anyone who asked.....more so now than before.

Len

[va rider]

"IF is NOT out anything in terms of one bike down. I am not only keeping the bike I received from them, I confirmed the order of a second yesterday with them---this time even more precisely."

So, I am confused, are you keeping the bike with the Reynolds' stays or returning to IF when you recieve the IF CJ with ovalized foco stays.

[SBash]

Is the Customer Always Right?

No one is right all the time. However, your operating principle does need to center on the customer. And, for your purposes the customer is always right. Every successful business owner makes decisions based upon the perception of what customers want. To be successful, you have to offer the right products, at the right prices and offer merchandise when and where customers want it.

The customer’s point of view it the viewpoint you need to see. Your decisions should reflect a sensitivity to the customer. Customers recognized good merchandise, convenient locations and quality customer service. It’s up to you to create that shopping environment for your customers.

Now that you have an operating principle, you have to decide how to apply it to customer complaints. No matter how good your product or service, customers may have difficulties or complaints. Try to view complaints as positive input for improvements. A properly treated, customer complaint can change a dissatisfied customer into a satisfied customer. It takes patience, diplomacy and an honest willingness to meet the customer half way to effectively resolve customer disputes. Develop a written customer service policy to help you cope with consumer complaints. Also consider the following five tips:

Listen to each complaint and consider it seriously. Never mind how foolish it may sound to you, most people will not complain unless they feel they have a legitimate grievance.
Try to take the customer’s point of view. If you were in the customer’s place, how would you feel? Would you feel upset or angry if the incident happened to you?
If investigation is necessary, do it while the customer is present.
If investigation shows that the customer is right, admit it at once. apologize and offer to make amends then and there. An open and honest response bring s you from conflict to common ground.
Should the complaint turn out to be baseless, try to let the customer save face. Offer that the feedback has helped you evaluate and improve your service


SB

[Kevan]

This thread needs to be hosed down.

I'd write more, but who would read it?

[Doc Austin]

Are you guys STILL navel gazing over this?

It's beautiful outside. It's spring. Go for a ride, fer Pete's sakes!

BBDave

They could have built him a new bike by now and he could be out there with us.


Look, just kidding.

This thread needs to be hosed down.

He, he, he. He said "hose," he, he, yeah, yeah.............

[vaxn8r]

Just for the record, there is not one event that's transpired in the last week which would have any bearing on whether or not I purchase a frameset from IF.

Let's give people some credit for being able to sift through the expressed emotions and opinions on this and other threads. Let's be real, there is not a single business that does not have disgruntled customers. Not one! So if you decide to base your purchase on data taken way out of context, without looking at the product and the company and the overall satisfaction, well, you get what you deserve. An uninformed purchase.

IF is going to be just fine.

[Legend_1970]

I think its good to have experiences posted here. I'm kind of in the market for a steel frame. I had considered IF, and wasn't sure about them, and after this thread, I would say I still respect them as a company, but I will probably now shy away towards other builders who maybe are a little more process oriented.

[Indy Fab]

Vax,

With all due respect, we don't have a clue to what degree (if any) IF will be hurt or helped by this event. I would also add that there are a great many bike sales initiated by people who are completely uninformed, and I would hate for IF to lose even one of those sales. We can't predict that everyone who initially formed a negative opinion of IF have now had their doubts and suspicions assuaged. I can only cite marketing history: that when a negative event occurs, a portion of the population will not change their minds about a company, no matter what. Either because they haven't been exposed to the resolution or because their negative opinions are firmly fixed, some people will never consider IF.

I'm convinced Douglas has done everything humanly possible to overturn IF's injury. He's purchased another bike from them and will use his (not insubstantial) influence to convince others to buy from them. But he can't control how some people -- uninformed or not -- are going to feel about them.

[dbrk]

Just for clarity's sake: I have decided to keep the bike that IF made first according to their tubing spec. I love the way it rides and I want to honor now their choice. It is a way of saying that I credit their engineering choice even if I still wish they had told me that they were making a change that would affect the aesthetics. I have also confirmed the purchase of a second Crown Jewel SE (this one Molteni orange with black letters in white outline) on which every tube, every design choice has been confirmed. IF apparently thinks I'm an okay guy. I think they are swell. I apologized to them and they apologized to me; we agreed we both made mistakes; we agree that we actually like and respect each other and believe the other is honest, honorable, and generous of spirit. Case friggin' closed.

I am currently actually out on a ride, if you can believe that! I am some 22 miles from home at a friend's bike shop in Mendon, NY where he is currently swapping out wheels. He's just built me a pair of Mavic SSc tubular rims laced up with DA hubs and Andre Dugast tires. I'm dyin' to ride these tires and see precisely what all the hubbub is about. So I'm on the road in about thirty more seconds. It's beautiful out there so long as you keep out of the westerly headwind. See yous (add hometown inflection, i.e., north Jersey) later.

dbrk

[Sandy]

Surely it is time to end this thread. Comments, both favorable and non-favorable, have been made relative to the manner in which dbrk handled the issue. He has responded precisely, eloquently, openly, sincerely, respectfully, and obviously from his heart, to each and every question and/or criticsm.

There were both substantive issues and emotional aspects of dbrk's initial actions. The rest simply evolved, most not under his control, nor from his actions.

Clearly, it is time to leave this now. How many of us would have taken such criticism in such a mature, sensitive, and respectful manner? Very few, I believe.

Please give him a break. He has reponded to all, including me, in a most honorable way.


Sandy

[Kevan]

The fire truck has arrived. Where you been man?! There's nothin' but foundation left!

[slowgoing]

yawn!

[csb]

i'm already 1/2 way up the next climb

[Kevin]

Anybody read a good book lately?

Kevin

[SBash]

Where is the index to this?

[dirtdigger88]

wow, leave town for a few days and the kids have a party and tear up the house. Now I know why my parents got so POed with me in highschool.

Jason

[soulspinner]

I think Indy Fab is in my short list-they built the guy a new frame bottom line. My short list is now Indy Fab, Serotta and Spectrum where there was only 2 before. The man ordered stiff, did not specify chainstay preference, and they built him another and would allow him to return the frame he did not want. What more can you ask for? Mistakes, missed communication - call it whatever you want this company stepped up to the plate. If anything they earned my consideration when I go ti for my 50th birthday. And I hope the IF Mr Brooks gets is the best in his considerable stable.