Winter Training Wanker Ramblings

[Fat Robert]

Screw LSD

look -- how many long races do you really do, unless you're a cat 1? For most of us, three hours is a long race.

look -- what does riding slowly do for you? it teaches how to ride slowly. increasing mitochonridal density, increased capillarization, blah, blah.... VO2 training had the greatest effect on both, then L4, then L3, and then LSD/L2 training. I'm not making this crap up...more and more research out there says do more intensity during the winter, do one long ride, and that's it.

i know...LSD, long winter miles for base...if you're a six-hour road racer...if you're doing all these one-hour crits? maybe not....

look - this is why 'crossers get it. they're improving power, VO2, LT for two or three months, then they chill for a couple of weeks before hopping on their road bikes...meanwhile, the roadies are de-training their intensity, and then spend the spring getting it back...

this is what i'm going to try this winter: 3 specific workouts each week -- either 2 LT or tempo, and 1 leg speed/power, or 2 leg speed/power and 1 lT or tempo. then one longish ride -- 3 hours max. maybe it'll work well. maybe it won't. i'm just not convinced i need to be tweedling around at 19mph and freezing for three months.


discuss

[William]

That's Phat!! :cool:

Have at it Bob!




William

[Geoff]

[QUOTE=Fat Robert]Screw LSD

... i'm just not convinced i need to be tweedling around at 19mph and freezing for three months.

Your LSD average is 19 mph, now that is Phat!

I agree that teh intensity is great and necessary thourgh the winter for us short didtance folks, but for me I just enjoy not worring about the workout schedule. Also my knees really like the rest, and its cold and dark.

[Tom]

nothing. One person's anecdotal unsubstantiated undocumented impressions of years ago.

When I was running my cruising speed increased when I started doing the three to three and a half hour weekly slow slow slow runs on Sunday. The rest of the time I ran normally in the 85% you have to be an idiot to be here range except I would go a little shorter on Saturday than if I wasn't running long.

The only year I was really fast (for me) was when I did about six interval workouts. That and having no car so when somebody tried to steal my bike and broke the rear derailleur I rode everywhere on a 52/39-13 two speed bike because I didn't have the money or the inclination to replace the part. Lots of high gear sprints and stuff when I went to the store to get another couple quarts of Ballantine Ale and that kind of thing.

[jeffg]

my shortest event I generally do takes me over six hours, and some take 15+. Nevertheless, I have trained for them primarily on a trainer and any I ride mostly tempo.

Mixed in with a few good rides outdoors and it works ok. What kills me is training inconsistently. For me 80-90% of AT is more core training zone.

But hell, given that I worked over 400 hours this month I am happy to be alive and still married ...

[Richard]

I'm sure that a lot of contradictory advice about training is to come, but what I don't get is how you can be freezing in SC? Up here it is freezing already.

[Fat Robert]

bub, anything under 50 is freezing. you've seen the pictures. i'm skinny. the fat thing is all about me getting up to 173. the ten pounds has been lean mass. so i think i'm chubby -- but i'm 6% fat. so i freakin freeze. it ain't cold, but i'm cold.

[Richard]

Heck, put enough clothing on to look like Bib and you'll be fine. I can's afford the number of heating packets to make my feet live through the winters anymore. It's already going below 30 at night.

[bcm119]

I've posted this before, but its relevant-
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

[Fat Robert]

BCM -- I always thought about that from swimming - sure, you were grinding yardage for three hours, but it wasn't to swim for three hours: it was to build the traiing endurance to do the LT and VO2 work that you did from...geesh...October to March....

Seb Coe's papa also said that Base training for a 800/1500 runner was months of VO2 repeats....

[bcm119]

As a rebelious kid, I was always pissed at my coach for having us sprinters do 20 hour weeks in the fall to swim a race that lasted, uh, 2 breaths. He'd tell me without that endurance training you couldn't effectively do those vo2 sprinters workouts we all looked forward to in the spring. I suppose that was true to an extent, but my coach had a propensity to turn out a lot of great middle distance swimmers, and very few sprinters.

[Fat Robert]

i remember watching our sprinters do this as a main set:

6x 100 on the 15:00

all about speed, baby...they didn't do d_ck for yardage after december

[bcm119]

i remember watching our sprinters do this as a main set:

6x 100 on the 15:00

all about speed, baby...they didn't do d_ck for yardage after december
Sure, and all the distance guys watched jealously during their 30 seconds of rest between 500s... but if we didn't maintain within a second of our unshaved best times, we'd get our asses chewed out... sometimes I'd almost rather have been doing those 500s. Almost. ;)

[Fat Robert]

but back to cycling, bro

its sinking in to me that its all about leg speed, L4, and atp/cp stuff during the winter..put a couple of recovery days in, and just one long day, and you have it....

[nick0137]

10 x 6 mile commute each week, 1 hour of hard varied cadence/wattage turbo session Tues, Weds night fast group ride (40 miles), Thurs turbo (as Tues), Sat 35 mile fastish group ride, Sun 80 slown steady miles miles. Perfect mix of long n slow, rollin along nicely, and true sick-up-when-youre-finished effort. Best winter I ever had: I've never managed it since.....

[saab2000]

Interesting thoughts here on the winter training. Today I did 42 miles with a couple of hard efforts. But I saw one thing that told me all I need to know.

I rode half of that with a very thin, fit young lady. Her lack of excess fat allowed her to just spin along easily when others (when I say 'others', I mean 'me') were huffing and puffing.

I need to lose the excess fat and the rest will fall into place. Just my thing. I look at myself in the mirror and I no longer look like the gaunt rail of a rider I used to be. Instead I see a 39 year old who could stant to lose 20 lbs.

That is my winter project. Leg speed and 4x6 minute intervals and all the other stuff is meaningless if I am carrying a couple sacks of potatoes around the belly......

Running and less (hopefully none) beer over the winter will help out I hope.

Discipline!!!

[Fat Robert]

you don't need discipline

you need liposuction

why did you buy that look? you could have bought some weight loss....

sheesh -- i'll tell you what...fruck it...i'm coming up there with a shop vac and a hunting knife...we'll figure this out....

[saab2000]

I got the Look not for weight loss. None of my bikes is for liteness, though the Look is pretty svelte - prolly around 17 lbs. I got it because all I needed was the frame/fork. I had practically a whole Record groupset sitting in a box going to waste.

Anyway, so far so good for November on the diet front. If I can lose 2-3 lbs per month I will come into next spring screaming fit.

BTW, I really like how the Look rides. Muted, eats up the road, smooth, handles like a race bike. I rode my Serotta today and went, "Hmmm that Look is sweet...." Unfortunately a direct comparison is not really possible because they don't fit exactly the same.

None of it is meaninglful without the Fat Robert ShopVac Liposuction procedure tho!!

[Spicoli]

SAAB, YOU ARE MY CHIMERIC TWIN!!! I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. WITH 5LBS OFF IM MUCH BETTER, 20LBS AND RIDING IS EFFORTLESS. THE HARD PART FOR ME IS EATING AND AVOIDING GUINESS'S. SPEED COMES EASILY WHEN IM NOT PORKED UP. OH WELL 20-TO GO THOUGH? :p Interesting thoughts here on the winter training. Today I did 42 miles with a couple of hard efforts. But I saw one thing that told me all I need to know.

I rode half of that with a very thin, fit young lady. Her lack of excess fat allowed her to just spin along easily when others (when I say 'others', I mean 'me') were huffing and puffing.

I need to lose the excess fat and the rest will fall into place. Just my thing. I look at myself in the mirror and I no longer look like the gaunt rail of a rider I used to be. Instead I see a 39 year old who could stant to lose 20 lbs.

That is my winter project. Leg speed and 4x6 minute intervals and all the other stuff is meaningless if I am carrying a couple sacks of potatoes around the belly......

Running and less (hopefully none) beer over the winter will help out I hope.

Discipline!!!

[saab2000]

SAAB, YOU ARE MY CHIMERIC TWIN!!! I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. WITH 5LBS OFF IM MUCH BETTER, 20LBS AND RIDING IS EFFORTLESS. THE HARD PART FOR ME IS EATING AND AVOIDING GUINESS'S. SPEED COMES EASILY WHEN IM NOT PORKED UP. OH WELL 20-TO GO THOUGH? :p

No doubt. The beer, Pizza, Dunkin Donuts (your home and mine!) don't help in the 'go fast' dept at my age.

I used to have the metabolism of a team of race horses. Somewhere along the line that kinda slowed down.....

My hope is the a few ultralong rides with the DC crowd in the spring will help. Znfndl told me he does rides well in excess of 100 miles regularly. Sweet.

[vaxn8r]

No doubt. The beer, Pizza, Dunkin Donuts (your home and mine!) don't help in the 'go fast' dept at my age.

I used to have the metabolism of a team of race horses. Somewhere along the line that kinda slowed down.....

My hope is the a few ultralong rides with the DC crowd in the spring will help. Znfndl told me he does rides well in excess of 100 miles regularly. Sweet.
I hate to say this but your 40's take an even bigger toll on your metabolism. ATMO.

[H.Frank Beshear]

Screw LSD

Well then I suppose these are out of the question? :D

[chrisroph]

Go at it, you seem to have made up your mind. We will see how it works. However, I believe in periodization and structure, but not as a slave to numbers. What I mean by this is that I don't usually go out with the intention of 20 minutes at 85% max pulse, 15 x 30 sec on 1 minute off, or things of that nature. Some days I can do more than intended, some days less. I like variety in the structure if that makes any sense. It means that I tend to follow my instincts as I feel that it is real easy for somebody with children, a hard job, and many demands to do too much. My best years have involved: some rest in the fall after a hard year. The old mind and muscles need a little time to recoup and recover from too much hard work and intensity. After a couple of easy weeks of fun riding, I move to emphasis on weights to build core strength and specific leg strength combined with time on the trainer emphasizing leg speed and solid pedal motion, 40 miles or so tempo with the team on the weekends again emphasizing leg speed and pedal motion, and a few rides outside during the week as time and weather permit. Here in Oregon, its very hard to get in hard rides outside in the winter. The emphasis on suppleness is necessary to counter the affects of the weights, which can give you dead and slow legs if you are not careful. Sometime in February, I start tapering off of the leg weights and moving to more time on the bike with more intensity, but still stressing leg speed and efficient pedal motion. There is still plenty of time for the big meat gears. Incidentally, in years when I have started intervals in January, I could do well in spring road races, but I was usually toast by May. When daylight savings time arrives, I will spend time on the track, sometimes 2 or 3 times a week. This starts with pretty small gears, like a 49 x 17, so again the drill is spin, spin, spin. I like to do some paceline tempo and some specific work like jumps off the banking. As the year progresses, I will move up in gears, and do more AT work, but not to the detriment of the spin. When the heart of the season rolls around, if everything has gone right, the trick is to be able to ride the big meat gears at high, efficient and supple cadences. It is an absolutely amazing feeling to push a 49 x 15 on the track at 120 rpms or so or to pedal a 53 x 15 on the road at 38 mph. I will confess, I have never been a very good climber. Most of my good results have been in various types of sprints, either from small breaks or out of the field. I am best off training to my strengths. There have been some years where I have done a load of climbing, starved down my weight and still gotten dropped on the climbs and/or sick. My program probably wouldn't work for a climber or a roller. But it has worked for me. YMMV ATMO.

[Fat Robert]

i feel you, coy. the key is train to your strengths, and its not about a cookie-cutter approach. i have endurance and leg speed. i can't climb, and i can't sprint -- force is a huge weakness. i thrive on a heavy workload and time trial training.

last year, i was doing 4-5 tempo sessions during the week during december, 3-4 threshold workouts a week during january, and i had a good spring. the problem was that with my broken ribs last nov-dec, i didn't do any strength/power work -- and i didn't have any punch in the spring, although i had good CP30 power.

so, this time, i'm starting the tempo/LT a month earlier, and i've been in the gym and doing jumps/power starts on the bike...and like atmo preaches, leg speed....

for a sprinter, this program would probably cook them. for a climber, there would be too much rollin'....for a tall, skinny TT guy, it just might work....

[Climb01742]

a runner once trained for a marathon by running -- as one of his workouts -- 25 miles as a series of repeat quarters. he won a gold medal. worked for him. question is, could it work for others?

experiments are fun. why the h*ll not, robert?

[Cary Ford]

Best year I had racing the bike was the year that I did interval workouts 2X a week all winter long...in the POOL.

As well as a very fast roller ride for 30 minutes 1X a week.

All of this while following a typical Friel-type of periodization calendar - base, build, race. I just ignored it in the pool and on the rollers.

The longer rides for me have usually been about 1. getting muscles and tendons ready to take more force, 2. building endurance, 3. losing weight, 4. getting out of the house and just being on the bike, 5. getting out of the house, 6. getting out of--

[fstrthnu]

All that is fine but without some S.E. or M.T. if you will, you wont see the large returns in distance over time (speed) upon completing the LT phase. The fast twitch stuff should be done actually before anything and then should be maintained and altered to race (sprinting) efforts as you near your race season.

I might have missed a couple things or the entire point of this thread completely... having said all that, cross is a great way to keep the edge in the off season. It can be mentally taxing after a long road season... that is another topic though.

Fstrthnu

P.S. mini race report: I was in seventh with 2 laps to go in the UCI race in CT today when my lack of equipment care caught up with me. Rolled tire. MP.

[Fat Robert]

my knees don't like the SE stuff...any suggestion about how to manage building enough SE to reap the benefits of LT stuff, if low-cadence/high torque efforts are problematic for my old joints?

[obtuse]

my knees don't like the SE stuff...any suggestion about how to manage building enough SE to reap the benefits of LT stuff, if low-cadence/high torque efforts are problematic for my old joints?

tylenol?

obtuse

[cs124]

tylenol?

obtuse

fark that... he ain't gonna get tested...cortisone

[manet]

you don't need discipline


just need a riding pal on a program...