RIP Senator John McCain

[Bruce K]

Let’s try to keep the politics out of this and honor a man who devoted his life to serving this country.

BK

[veggieburger]

Saw his flight suit at the Hanoi Hilton in Vietnam. Tough. RIP JM.

[Cicli]

Let’s try to keep the politics out of this and honor a man who devoted his life to serving this country.

BK

Too bad.

[skiezo]

I really respected this man as a person, politician and most of what he stood for. I met him twice. Once while serving as a medic in the army rangers in the early 80s while our unit was on a "hunting mission" in the Balkans and he visited our unit when we got back from the the battle of Mogadishu after we lost 18 and had another 70+ wounded. He had a very funny and conical side to him and was a fine and dignified American hero no matter what others say about him. Even tho I am on the other side of the isle from him I have the utmost respect for this man.

[wc1934]

Politics aside - a true patriot and hero.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/john-mccain-obituary/index.html

[oldpotatoe]

Politics aside - a true patriot and hero.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/john-mccain-obituary/index.html

Fair winds and following seas Captain McCain. Rest In Peace.

[Never]

Likewise. RIP a courageous, dedicated, fair man.

I don't understand why wc1934 and oldpotatoe comments were not merged into this thread?

Also: the thread title contains a typo: "McCain" and not "McCsin".

[AngryScientist]

threads merged. typo corrected.

[BlueFly]

A great example of a true patriot of our time. Godspeed Senator!

[dbnm]

Huge respect for him. RIP.

[joosttx]

Sad day. He was a great patriot and a reflective man. God Bless.

[makoti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4

He never stopped trying to keep decency IN politics, for that and many other things I will miss him in our Senate. Agree or disagree with John McCain, you knew he was a man of honor.

[bigbill]

I got to meet him a few times while deployed. He was always genuine and think he was most relaxed on a Navy ship. He didn't have to worry about what he said, he was just another sailor. He took the time to talk to the crew and he usually had Joe Lieberman with him, they complimented each other well. I'm going to miss him. I've got a sweated out "McCain" USNA ballcap, I think I'll wear it for a few days.

[Chris]

My thoughts are with his family.

[rnhood]

RIP. He was an honorable person, and I liked a lot of what he stood for in the Senate. And I wish he had made it to CIC.

[metalheart]

Duty and honor ... i don't know how to remember him other than by this ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNJVgmlkuWc&frags=pl%2Cwn

[veloduffer]

Although our views differed, I respected and admired John McCain - a thoughtful, kind and intelligent gentleman. He deserves a the honor of lying in state.

A few years ago, he wrote a great piece about Delmer Berg. I won't give away any spoilers but it shows the thoughtfulness and for lack of a better word, awareness that so few leaders have today. Here's a link:

https://nyti.ms/22Ijh8H (https://nyti.ms/22Ijh8H)

[roguedog]

Godspeed. Thank you for the pulls. Time to let others take the front. Rest in peace, Senator.

[redir]

Regardless of ones opinions on the man's policy and politics his life was one that makes an incredible story.

[CSTRider]

A selfless servant who always put country before self. May not always agree with his policies, but McCain was impeccable in character, honor and integrity. The world has lost a giant. RIP.

[mcteague]

He was one of the few Republicans I respected until his run for the presidency had him losing track IMO. Once that was done, he seemed to regain his normal , principled, course. Really sorry to see him go. He was a fighter, and a role model, til the end.

Tim

[sjbraun]

Our local paper, the Arizona Daily Star's editorial cartoonist is often criticized for his liberal bent. He wrote a poignant tribute to Senator McCain.

https://tucson.com/opinion/local/fitz-may-god-bless-you-on-your-journey-home-john/article_0c3ce068-f4a0-5087-ae35-4c85f7870db9.html#tracking-source=home-trending

And today's cartoon

https://tucson.com/opinion/local/fitz-may-god-bless-you-on-your-journey-home-john/article_0c3ce068-f4a0-5087-ae35-4c85f7870db9.html#tracking-source=home-trending

[OtayBW]

He was one of the few Republicans I respected until his run for the presidency had him losing track IMO. Once that was done, he seemed to regain his normal , principled, course. Really sorry to see him go. He was a fighter, and a role model, til the end.

TimI agree with this as well. One thing that I did not know was that he had a Silver Star, 3 Bronze Stars, a Purple Heart, and Legion of Merit award. Not too shabby for someone who was captured....:rolleyes:

[joosttx]

I agree with this as well. One thing that I did not know was that he had a Silver Star, 3 Bronze Stars, a Purple Heart, and Legion of Merit award. Not too shabby for someone who was captured....:rolleyes:

I had a serious girlfriend in college who we have remained friends since. Her step-father was a POW with Senator McCain. He always spoke highly of him when he talked about that stuff.

[djg]

Regardless of ones opinions on the man's policy and politics his life was one that makes an incredible story.

We ought to be able to respect, and even admire, those with whom we disagree. McCain knew that, I think, throughout his long life of public service. May he rest in peace.

[ptourkin]

Let’s try to keep the politics out of this and honor a man who devoted his life to serving this country.

BK

Dear Bruce K,

This is extraordinarily hypocritical and inherently political: here is person X (who bombed a populated city,) he is a hero and you can only say good things about him. As someone said before, what if I said this about Hugo Chavez?

Signed,

A fellow Navy veteran and student of history

[Burnette]

Our local paper, the Arizona Daily Star's editorial cartoonist is often criticized for his liberal bent. He wrote a poignant tribute to Senator McCain.

https://tucson.com/opinion/local/fitz-may-god-bless-you-on-your-journey-home-john/article_0c3ce068-f4a0-5087-ae35-4c85f7870db9.html#tracking-source=home-trending

And today's cartoon

https://tucson.com/opinion/local/fitz-may-god-bless-you-on-your-journey-home-john/article_0c3ce068-f4a0-5087-ae35-4c85f7870db9.html#tracking-source=home-trending

Thanks for linking that, it was a good read.

[verticaldoug]

Dear Bruce K,

This is extraordinarily hypocritical and inherently political: here is person X (who bombed a populated city,) he is a hero and you can only say good things about him. As someone said before, what if I said this about Hugo Chavez?

Signed,

A fellow Navy veteran and student of history

I don't think you can blame John 3 for Operation Rolling Thunder. If you consider the family he was raised- Grandpa John Sr 4 star Admiral, Dad John Jr 4 Star Admiral- you graduate from the Naval Academy and follow orders.

If anything, blame his dad John Jr and the other members of the Pentagon and the politicians who believed in the domino theory.

I suspect John MCCain will be one of the first to admit he made some bonehead mistakes.

I give him credit for defending Barak Obama in the 2008 campaign when someone at one of his rallies in Lakeville Mn said Obama was an arab among other things.

[ptourkin]

I don't think you can blame John 3 for Operation Rolling Thunder. If you consider the family he was raised- Grandpa John Sr 4 star Admiral, Dad John Jr 4 Star Admiral- you graduate from the Naval Academy and follow orders.

If anything, blame his dad John Jr and the other members of the Pentagon and the politicians who believed in the domino theory.

I suspect John MCCain will be one of the first to admit he made some bonehead mistakes.

I give him credit for defending Barak Obama in the 2008 campaign when someone at one of his rallies in Lakeville Mn said Obama was an arab among other things.

My point is that calling someone a hero or good person who is above criticism is an inherently political statement - the same thing happened here with Krauthammer. Not everyone agrees.

I don't blame him for Operation Rolling Thunder, but as someone who has studied the law of war, it was a war crime by any modern analysis. People were prosecuted for this after the Balkan wars.

[joosttx]

My point is that calling someone a hero or good person who is above criticism is an inherently political statement - the same thing happened here with Krauthammer. Not everyone agrees.

I don't blame him for Operation Rolling Thunder, but as someone who has studied the law of war, it was a war crime by any modern analysis. People were prosecuted for this after the Balkan wars.

We should not criticize the recently passed. Like them or dislike them. I believe everyone has some good in them. At the time of their passing is the time to reflect on that good within. This is not a political statement it is a statement about proper etiquette.

[Bruce K]

Not hypocritical at all to want to recognize the passing of an individual who tried his best to serve his country and the people he represented without getting into a major political blowout.

As for his service in the Vietnam Nam conflict, I am pretty sure that I don’t classify his involvement as a war crime.

By all accounts, John McCain was a dedicated public servant and a basically good man. Those are qualities to be admired.

BK

[bigbill]

Not hypocritical at all to want to recognize the passing of an individual who tried his best to serve his country and the people he represented without getting into a major political blowout.

As for his service in the Vietnam Nam conflict, I am pretty sure that I don’t classify his involvement as a war crime.

By all accounts, John McCain was a dedicated public servant and a basically good man. Those are qualities to be admired.

BK

I agree. He dedicated his life to service of his country. He followed the orders of the President of the United States, in accordance with the oath of office. He was a blunt man when it came to politics and not afraid to go against his party. The country is better for his service.

I'm a retired Naval Officer and my son attends the Naval Academy.

[gasman]

Dear Bruce K,

This is extraordinarily hypocritical and inherently political: here is person X (who bombed a populated city,) he is a hero and you can only say good things about him. As someone said before, what if I said this about Hugo Chavez?

Signed,

A fellow Navy veteran and student of history

I don’t think anyone is saying he was without fault. He was a human and like all humans we are all faulty with good and bad behaviors and traits. He would likely have been the first to agree. I have done things I’m not proud of and I’m sure that’s true of everyone on the forum.

We just want to keep the discussion polite about someone who just died not focus on the negatives.

[Rada]

My point is that calling someone a hero or good person who is above criticism is an inherently political statement - the same thing happened here with Krauthammer. Not everyone agrees.

I don't blame him for Operation Rolling Thunder, but as someone who has studied the law of war, it was a war crime by any modern analysis. People were prosecuted for this after the Balkan wars.

Laws change. As a student of law you should know that Protocol I was added in 1977. :no:

[ptourkin]

Not hypocritical at all to want to recognize the passing of an individual who tried his best to serve his country and the people he represented without getting into a major political blowout.

As for his service in the Vietnam Nam conflict, I am pretty sure that I don’t classify his involvement as a war crime.

By all accounts, John McCain was a dedicated public servant and a basically good man. Those are qualities to be admired.

BK

I wasn't judging him. Words like "hero" and "good" and stating that he "tried his best to serve his country" are subjective and political. You are again using them and telling us that was cannot disagree. You're comfortable with that. If someone else said the same thing about Hugo Chavez, as was proposed, you wouldn't be so comfortable with it. Recognize your own biases.

What BigBill said is political as well. It is being spun that he often went against his own party. This is not factual. He went along with the current agenda approximately 90% of the time. He just didn't like how the person in charge articulated it, but except for one vote, he did not "go against" it. Some people don't like that agenda. Saying he was serving the better good is a political statement.

You're the mod. Do what you want, but don't claim it is apolitical. This board reflects your political biases. That's fine - but recognize it.

[buddybikes]

How is there even a discussion regarding Operation Rolling Thunder - he was a soldier doing his job just like rest of them in the messed up conflict. What if he turned his plane around - he would of be tried in military court

[FlashUNC]

Not hypocritical at all to want to recognize the passing of an individual who tried his best to serve his country and the people he represented without getting into a major political blowout.

As for his service in the Vietnam Nam conflict, I am pretty sure that I don’t classify his involvement as a war crime.

By all accounts, John McCain was a dedicated public servant and a basically good man. Those are qualities to be admired.

BK

Not to belabor a point I've made in similar threads about this, but you cannot divorce the cataloging and acknowledgment of a political leader's life from their politics. It's like trying to describe Dario Pegoretti without mentioning that he built bikes. Yeah, he did a lot of other things, but not mentioning the frames hollows out the story quite a bit.

John McCain was an unabashed war hero who did more in five and half years as a POW than most ever will in service to this country.

But he's also the guy who never found a foreign policy issue that he felt couldn't be solved by going to war, even while espousing just how horrible war was.

He was the guy who warned against pointless, quagmire wars, and then took 17 years to acknowledge that his cheerleading was a mistake in leading us into the Iraq and Afghanistan morass we are still dealing with today.

He's the guy who espoused decency and thoughtful discourse, decrying the lack of both in our politics for years. Then decided to name Sarah Palin as his running mate in 2008.

He's the guy who reached across the aisle with the late Russ Feingold to make some fairly weak but well-intentioned attempt at campaign finance reform, but that was a decade after a campaign bribery scandal in which he was implicated nearly ended his career.

And that is just a small sampling. He was a mess of contradictions and incredibly complex, whether you like his politics or not. To pretend those politics did not exist is barely scratching the surface of any real discussion of what his legacy may be after six decades of public service; committing us to the kind of empty platitudes that do a real disservice to an otherwise fascinating life in the public eye.

If there's no real discussion to be had (on a discussion forum no less), why have a thread at all for these kinds of political figures?

[doomridesout]

I agree with ptourkin and Flash on this- trying to make an apolitical thread about the life of a politician is an exercise in banality. He spent much of his life putting his politics in the public forum. Acting like we can't discuss them now is ridiculous.

[Bruce K]

I think you guys missed my point.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions and they don’t have to agree with mine.

I would hope this conversation could be respectful of the passing of the man and would not degenerate into a political battle between posters.

If you disagree with the man or his positions just be respectful in your disagreement.

BK

[bigbill]

I wasn't judging him. Words like "hero" and "good" and stating that he "tried his best to serve his country" are subjective and political. You are again using them and telling us that was cannot disagree. You're comfortable with that. If someone else said the same thing about Hugo Chavez, as was proposed, you wouldn't be so comfortable with it. Recognize your own biases.

What BigBill said is political as well. It is being spun that he often went against his own party. This is not factual. He went along with the current agenda approximately 90% of the time. He just didn't like how the person in charge articulated it, but except for one vote, he did not "go against" it. Some people don't like that agenda. Saying he was serving the better good is a political statement.

You're the mod. Do what you want, but don't claim it is apolitical. This board reflects your political biases. That's fine - but recognize it.

I don't believe I was being political. I didn't use the word often with regards to going against his party, you did. You do understand that a lot happens before the vote, right? Just because he went with his party 90% of the time in voting doesn't mean he didn't influence the bill before it went to a vote. And finally, I didn't say better good.

So I guess the bottom line is if you're going to use me as an example, at least be accurate. And don't use your military service as a means to justify your opinion, everyone's military service is different and doesn't make a person magically more believable. My statement about my service and my son's service proves nothing other than willingness to serve my country.

I spent time with the Senator on deployment, he's a good man that cared about the country. He wasn't perfect and neither is this country. His style didn't sit well with some, but he didn't change the person he was. He was an aggressive combat pilot that volunteered for dangerous missions and was ignoring the threat warning when he dropped his bombs and was shot down. That's who he was to the end.

[OtayBW]

I had mixed feelings about him as well, but on balance, I consider him to have been a decent guy who certainly was not as polarizing or spineless as some of the jackasses we have to deal with now. And that, for me, is high praise.

However, whatever I, or anyone else, thinks about him, I suggest that decorum would dictate that we put the man in the ground in peace before we debate all the heartburn and minutiae.....

[ptourkin]

And don't use your military service as a means to justify your opinion, everyone's military service is different and doesn't make a person magically more believable. .

I couldn't agree more. My prior service does nothing to mitigate or justify any indefensible **** I did subsequently. I think this applies to everyone.

[bigbill]

I had mixed feelings about him as well, but on balance, I consider him to have been a decent guy who certainly was not as polarizing or spineless as some of the jackasses we have to deal with now. And that, for me, is high praise.

However, whatever I, or anyone else, thinks about him, I suggest that decorum would dictate that we put the man in the ground in peace before we debate all the heartburn and minutiae.....

He's going to be interred at the Naval Academy. I'm glad my son is there to see the tradition and honor that will be shown.

[echappist]

I think you guys missed my point.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions and they don’t have to agree with mine.

I would hope this conversation could be respectful of the passing of the man and would not degenerate into a political battle between posters.

If you disagree with the man or his positions just be respectful in your disagreement.

BK

why use the word degenerate? there are certain threads in which people start lobbing ad hominems, not just at the political figure being discussed, but also the person espousing an opposing view. That's a conversation degenerating into a figurative food fight.

Other than the view that McCain himself was somehow liable for supposed war crime, most other comments and criticisms of the man are well-settled and agreed upon. Nothing in this thread is remotely similar to an uncivil shouting match.

The notion that a thread like this can and should stay apolitical is impossible and an exercise in futility, similar to counting angels dancing on the tip of a pin. We are speaking of a public figure here, and he's mainly known in the public for two stages of his life: career serving in the navy and career as an elected official. The only apolitical thing for which he is known is his service in the Navy, and he rightfully should be lauded for toughing out 5 years in captivity, and for refusing to participate in a prisoner swap despite being subjected to torture. Any discussion of the phase of his life as an elected official is by definition a political commentary, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be nasty.

Otherwise, everything else, including his voting records, McCain-Feingold, and correcting his own potential voter that Obama is not a Muslim, are all de facto political events. People praising him point to the latter two. If this thread were to be politics free, then those posts ought to receive rebuke as well, for being political. Obviously, that's nearly impossible...

That said, there's a reason why many have a favorable view of him, and it is that he can disagree without being disagreeable. Civility is in short supply these days, and his behavior in this regard harkens back to a more polite era.

[rnhood]

He's going to be interred at the Naval Academy. I'm glad my son is there to see the tradition and honor that will be shown.


That is good. The respect and honor John McCain will receive, is exactly what he should receive being that he upheld his sworn duty to our country, following our flag right or wrong. When his casket goes to DC they can honor or hate him for his politics, but at the NA he will be honored for being a true American who put his country first.

[gasman]

Russ Feingold disagreed with him in many areas esp foreign policy but he wrote a nice piece in the NY Times today. You can have polite or even heated political discourse without rolling in the mud.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/26/opinion/john-mccain-death-tribute.html

[pbarry]

Really liked JM, despite disagreeing with his positions on many issues.

Respect for the way he told it like it was, mostly, and that continued until the end.

Ultimate respect for the way he dealt with his lineage and cross-to-bear while in captivity.

Odds are short, but I'd enjoy seeing someone of his caliber in national politics again. RIP, Sir.

[m4rk540]

The respect and admiration that many of us now feel for McCain and, for that matter, Romney surely speaks to Obama's lasting legacy.

RIP, Senator.

[mjb266]

I’m not going to read the back and forth, so if this has been said, forgive me.

I disagreed politically, but found immense respect for the guy when he admitted making a mistake in trying to justify defending the confederate flag. To admit to his mistake spoke volumes to me.

[paredown]

I'm on the other side of the political spectrum from McCain, but he was a one of a kind American patriot. RIP.

My favorite (aside from his acknowledging the Confederate flag debacle just mentioned) was when he went after Cheney (and by extension, Shrub) for trying to justify torture. For McCain (who had been tortured) this was no theoretical discussion...

[mdeth1313]

Not many (if any) like him left in politics. He'll be missed.

[AngryScientist]

i would be surprised if there is not a movie about his life before too long.

[kevinvc]

I have to agree with the others who said that it's disingenuous to claim a thread commemorating a politician of McCain's stature can possibly be non-political. Allowing praise and the use of terms like "hero" or "patriot", but not permitting comments counter to that portrayal is promoting a specific political viewpoint.

I have a great deal of appreciation and respect for the work that all of the moderators put into maintaining this site and its community. Out of that respect, I will not post regarding the thread topic, but do want to share my personal opinion that it isn't consistent with the community standards of disallowing political conversations.

[drewski]

I have to agree with the others who said that it's disingenuous to claim a thread commemorating a politician of McCain's stature can possibly be non-political. Allowing praise and the use of terms like "hero" or "patriot", but not permitting comments counter to that portrayal is promoting a specific political viewpoint.

I have a great deal of appreciation and respect for the work that all of the moderators put into maintaining this site and its community. Out of that respect, I will not post regarding the thread topic, but do want to share my personal opinion that it isn't consistent with the community standards of disallowing political conversations.

+1 I think drowning out dissent is not a good thing for fostering authentic community. I am grateful for this board, but in this area I wish we were more open.

[HenryA]

Would you attend a funeral and express your outrage against the deceased in front of his family and friends? I’d hope you’d just stay home and marinate in your hateful thoughts and not spew them on others.

Its easy and popular to pour outrage into the world and pretend that is the same as exercising your right to free expression. It’s not. It is just rude and hurtful.

This is not a public forum in terms of any constitutional right. It’s not a sidewalk where the Westboro Baptist Church members protest at a veteran’s funeral, making the most vile representations that would offend - everyone. That they are permitted to do that does not give you or anyone else standing to bring your personal **** show to this forum.

At Neville Chamberlain’s death, Churchill gave an amazing speech on Chamberlain’s life. It began:

“Since we last met, the House has suffered a very grievous loss in the death of one of its most distinguished Members, and of a statesman and public servant who, during the best part of three memorable years, was first Minister of the Crown.

The fierce and bitter controversies which hung around him in recent times were hushed by the news of his illness and are silenced by his death. In paying a tribute of respect and of regard to an eminent man who has been taken from us, no one is obliged to alter the opinions which he has formed or expressed upon issues which have become a part of history; but at the Lychgate we may all pass our own conduct and our own judgments under a searching review.”

Read the whole thing, there is more there about a person who could be said to have a large part of the blame for a horrible war resting on his shoulders. But the address to the House was not the place to debate that.

I think that is the point that the moderators are making here. It’s not about your freedom of expression but rather about basic human courtesy and politeness.

[kevinvc]

HenryA - I'm not sure who you're responding to, but the straw man in your rant certainly doesn't align with what I said or the tone I used.

How about if we don't derail this thread. The mods have stated its purpose and I'm going to abide by that, which includes not engaging in personal insults. I'm happy to have a civil discussion via PM or email if you want. No more posting from me here.

[Jaybee]

I don't see anyone expressing outrage about Senator McCain. Just the opinion that the hagiography doesn't paint the complete picture of a man who spent 60 years in public service.

I agree with drewski that forced agreement isn't useful towards developing a sense of community.

Ironically enough, the decision to never talk politics is an inherently political decision.

[bicycletricycle]

Sorry in advance.

I like when he sung "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomba Iran" beach boys style. It was funny.

edit (read sarcastically)

[ptourkin]

Sorry in advance.

I like when he sung "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomba Iran" beach boys style. It was funny.

Yeah, killing people is hilarious. Be better.

[DRZRM]

This is the problem. I've does exactly what Bruce requested and said nothing in this thread regarding my opinions of John McCain, and will continue to do so, but I agree with people who critique the very idea that we can keep politics out of such a discussion. Henry A has just suggested that I "stay home and marinate in [my] hateful thoughts and not spew them on others" which is about as good an example of someone spewing hate as I've seen in the thread. This is not his funeral, and the idea that there is some parity is preposterous. I'm pretty sure the senator's wife and family will not be reading this thread.

As for acting like a gentleman, I'll sign off with a quote from the senator and then avoid this thread as requested. At a summer 1998 Republican fundraiser, weeks after Chelsea Clinton graduated High School, during the term of the country's first woman Attorney General, in a public forum, the senator joked:

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."

Targeting the children of the president, check.
Described Janet Reno as a man, check.
Suggest that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian, check.

Would you attend a funeral and express your outrage against the deceased in front of his family and friends? I’d hope you’d just stay home and marinate in your hateful thoughts and not spew them on others.

Its easy and popular to pour outrage into the world and pretend that is the same as exercising your right to free expression. It’s not. It is just rude and hurtful.

[drewski]

I think expecting people who are in our dysfunctional political system (Congress, White House) to be honorable is a recipe for disappointment.

The policies of our government are ruthless to co-existing with other people in peace. Out of respect for the moderators I am not going to go into anything in particular but if we want our great grand-children to have any shot at living in a civilized world we all have work to do.

In regard to military policy I think Ozzy got it right in "War Pigs".

A Ritual to Read to Each Other
BY WILLIAM E. STAFFORD
If you don't know the kind of person I am
and I don't know the kind of person you are
a pattern that others made may prevail in the world
and following the wrong god home we may miss our star.

For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
sending with shouts the horrible errors of childhood
storming out to play through the broken dike.

And as elephants parade holding each elephant's tail,
but if one wanders the circus won't find the park,
I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.

And so I appeal to a voice, to something shadowy,
a remote important region in all who talk:
though we could fool each other, we should consider—
lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the dark.

For it is important that awake people be awake,
or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;
the signals we give — yes or no, or maybe —
should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.

[tv_vt]

Politics aside - a true patriot and hero.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/john-mccain-obituary/index.html

Agree.

RIP Senator. Thank you for all of your service to this country.

[dddd]

This is the problem. I've does exactly what Bruce requested and said nothing in this thread regarding my opinions of John McCain, and will continue to do so, but I agree with people who critique the very idea that we can keep politics out of such a discussion. Henry A has just suggested that I "stay home and marinate in [my] hateful thoughts and not spew them on others" which is about as good an example of someone spewing hate as I've seen in the thread. This is not his funeral, and the idea that there is some parity is preposterous. I'm pretty sure the senator's wife and family will not be reading this thread.

As for acting like a gentleman, I'll sign off with a quote from the senator and then avoid this thread as requested. At a summer 1998 Republican fundraiser, weeks after Chelsea Clinton graduated High School, during the term of the country's first woman Attorney General, in a public forum, the senator joked:

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."

Targeting the children of the president, check.
Described Janet Reno as a man, check.
Suggest that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian, check.


Come to think of it, 1998 or just a bit earlier is when I noticed that John McCain's expressed opinions on foreign policy seemed to suddenly have reversed. It was around the time that the Clinton Administration was doing some bombing in the Balkans iir.
After that, I had completely different expectations of Senator McCain.

[ptourkin]

Would you attend a funeral and express your outrage against the deceased in front of his family and friends? I’d hope you’d just stay home and marinate in your hateful thoughts and not spew them on others.

Its easy and popular to pour outrage into the world and pretend that is the same as exercising your right to free expression. It’s not. It is just rude and hurtful.

This is not a public forum in terms of any constitutional right. It’s not a sidewalk where the Westboro Baptist Church members protest at a veteran’s funeral, making the most vile representations that would offend - everyone. That they are permitted to do that does not give you or anyone else standing to bring your personal **** show to this forum.

At Neville Chamberlain’s death, Churchill gave an amazing speech on Chamberlain’s life. It began:

“Since we last met, the House has suffered a very grievous loss in the death of one of its most distinguished Members, and of a statesman and public servant who, during the best part of three memorable years, was first Minister of the Crown.

The fierce and bitter controversies which hung around him in recent times were hushed by the news of his illness and are silenced by his death. In paying a tribute of respect and of regard to an eminent man who has been taken from us, no one is obliged to alter the opinions which he has formed or expressed upon issues which have become a part of history; but at the Lychgate we may all pass our own conduct and our own judgments under a searching review.”

Read the whole thing, there is more there about a person who could be said to have a large part of the blame for a horrible war resting on his shoulders. But the address to the House was not the place to debate that.

I think that is the point that the moderators are making here. It’s not about your freedom of expression but rather about basic human courtesy and politeness.

Henry,
By labeling dissenting thoughts as "hateful" (no one said they wanted to piss on his corpse) and calling him "eminent" you are making a judgment that is based on your own political views (which have always been clear from what you choose to object to.) His family is not here to read our comments. Nobody is claiming that this is a First Amendment issue - what we were discussing is the orthodoxy imposed by a moderator saying "here is an issue - you may only say one thing about it."

None of you have answered the question posed by someone when another far right figure died and only positive comments were allowed - "how would you feel if the same was said about Hugo Chavez?" I understand that this is due to the orthodoxy you follow - these are the kind of people you've been trained to laud, but examine that if you can.

Regarding not speaking ill and being a voice of dignity and a maverick - this was marketing. We could post all the examples of homophobic and racist slurs that were well known in Washington in addition to what he called his wife, but that is not allowed.

I find it funny that the side and generation that is always talking about "safe spaces" and "snowflakes" has the biggest freak out when their homodoxy is challenged.

[Corso]

I believe anyone who serves is a Hero.

John McCain certainly fits the bill. 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton? Whatever your politics, he deserves respect. Not to mention all the years in Washington.

Godspeed John. They certainly don’t make ’em like they used to.

[gdw]

Henry,
By labeling dissenting thoughts as "hateful" (no one said they wanted to piss on his corpse) and calling him "eminent" you are making a judgment that is based on your own political views (which have always been clear from what you choose to object to.) His family is not here to read our comments. Nobody is claiming that this is a First Amendment issue - what we were discussing is the orthodoxy imposed by a moderator saying "here is an issue - you may only say one thing about it."

None of you have answered the question posed by someone when another far right figure died and only positive comments were allowed - "how would you feel if the same was said about Hugo Chavez?" I understand that this is due to the orthodoxy you follow - these are the kind of people you've been trained to laud, but examine that if you can.

Regarding not speaking ill and being a voice of dignity and a maverick - this was marketing. We could post all the examples of homophobic and racist slurs that were well known in Washington in addition to what he called his wife, but that is not allowed.

I find it funny that the side and generation that is always talking about "safe spaces" and "snowflakes" has the biggest freak out when their homodoxy is challenged.


Mission accomplished. You derailed a thread and took your shots at the deceased and others who might not share your political views. Too predictable.......

[Bruce K]

I don’t believe I ever said “You may only say one thing”

I asked that we try to avoid a huge political debate in the face of the passing of a prominent figure in our country.

I had hoped the conversation would be respectful and appropriate but that didn’t happen for some.

You don’t have to like the man and could certainly say so but my asking that we focus on the human being didn’t seem too far fetched to me.

Apparently I was wrong.

BK

[ORMojo]

Let's let Senator McCain have a word here. Here is his farewell statement.

“My fellow Americans, whom I have gratefully served for sixty years, and especially my fellow Arizonans,

Thank you for the privilege of serving you and for the rewarding life that service in uniform and in public office has allowed me to lead. I have tried to serve our country honorably. I have made mistakes, but I hope my love for America will be weighed favorably against them.

I have often observed that I am the luckiest person on earth. I feel that way even now as I prepare for the end of my life. I have loved my life, all of it. I have had experiences, adventures and friendships enough for ten satisfying lives, and I am so thankful. Like most people, I have regrets. But I would not trade a day of my life, in good or bad times, for the best day of anyone else’s.

I owe that satisfaction to the love of my family. No man ever had a more loving wife or children he was prouder of than I am of mine. And I owe it to America. To be connected to America’s causes — liberty, equal justice, respect for the dignity of all people — brings happiness more sublime than life’s fleeting pleasures. Our identities and sense of worth are not circumscribed but enlarged by serving good causes bigger than ourselves.

‘Fellow Americans’ — that association has meant more to me than any other. I lived and died a proud American. We are citizens of the world’s greatest republic, a nation of ideals, not blood and soil. We are blessed and are a blessing to humanity when we uphold and advance those ideals at home and in the world. We have helped liberate more people from tyranny and poverty than ever before in history. We have acquired great wealth and power in the process.

We weaken our greatness when we confuse our patriotism with tribal rivalries that have sown resentment and hatred and violence in all the corners of the globe. We weaken it when we hide behind walls, rather than tear them down, when we doubt the power of our ideals, rather than trust them to be the great force for change they have always been.

We are three-hundred-and-twenty-five million opinionated, vociferous individuals. We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates. But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement. If only we remember that and give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country we will get through these challenging times. We will come through them stronger than before. We always do.

Ten years ago, I had the privilege to concede defeat in the election for president. I want to end my farewell to you with the heartfelt faith in Americans that I felt so powerfully that evening.

I feel it powerfully still.

Do not despair of our present difficulties but believe always in the promise and greatness of America, because nothing is inevitable here. Americans never quit. We never surrender. We never hide from history. We make history.

Farewell, fellow Americans. God bless you, and God bless America.”

[gasman]

Thank you for posting his parting words.

[joosttx]

Henry,
By labeling dissenting thoughts as "hateful" (no one said they wanted to piss on his corpse) and calling him "eminent" you are making a judgment that is based on your own political views (which have always been clear from what you choose to object to.) His family is not here to read our comments. Nobody is claiming that this is a First Amendment issue - what we were discussing is the orthodoxy imposed by a moderator saying "here is an issue - you may only say one thing about it."

None of you have answered the question posed by someone when another far right figure died and only positive comments were allowed - "how would you feel if the same was said about Hugo Chavez?" I understand that this is due to the orthodoxy you follow - these are the kind of people you've been trained to laud, but examine that if you can.

Regarding not speaking ill and being a voice of dignity and a maverick - this was marketing. We could post all the examples of homophobic and racist slurs that were well known in Washington in addition to what he called his wife, but that is not allowed.

I find it funny that the side and generation that is always talking about "safe spaces" and "snowflakes" has the biggest freak out when their homodoxy is challenged.

I think that after someone dies that their eulogy (which a post like this is) is a safe space. Everyone deserves that - Hugo Chavez included. Because they are all part of the humanity. I read posts like yours and feel such sadness that people cannot turn off their disagreement, hate or anger enough to wish a dead person peace.

It seems this attitude follows more of the Westboro Baptist Church version of faith, "Thank God for dead soldiers" than Martin Lurther Kings who said "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love.."

Regardless of anyone beliefs or the person who has died I would wish we would try and follow MLK teachings for the recently passed.

[joosttx]

Inspiring.


Let's let Senator McCain have a word here. Here is his farewell statement.

“My fellow Americans, whom I have gratefully served for sixty years, and especially my fellow Arizonans,

Thank you for the privilege of serving you and for the rewarding life that service in uniform and in public office has allowed me to lead. I have tried to serve our country honorably. I have made mistakes, but I hope my love for America will be weighed favorably against them.

I have often observed that I am the luckiest person on earth. I feel that way even now as I prepare for the end of my life. I have loved my life, all of it. I have had experiences, adventures and friendships enough for ten satisfying lives, and I am so thankful. Like most people, I have regrets. But I would not trade a day of my life, in good or bad times, for the best day of anyone else’s.

I owe that satisfaction to the love of my family. No man ever had a more loving wife or children he was prouder of than I am of mine. And I owe it to America. To be connected to America’s causes — liberty, equal justice, respect for the dignity of all people — brings happiness more sublime than life’s fleeting pleasures. Our identities and sense of worth are not circumscribed but enlarged by serving good causes bigger than ourselves.

‘Fellow Americans’ — that association has meant more to me than any other. I lived and died a proud American. We are citizens of the world’s greatest republic, a nation of ideals, not blood and soil. We are blessed and are a blessing to humanity when we uphold and advance those ideals at home and in the world. We have helped liberate more people from tyranny and poverty than ever before in history. We have acquired great wealth and power in the process.

We weaken our greatness when we confuse our patriotism with tribal rivalries that have sown resentment and hatred and violence in all the corners of the globe. We weaken it when we hide behind walls, rather than tear them down, when we doubt the power of our ideals, rather than trust them to be the great force for change they have always been.

We are three-hundred-and-twenty-five million opinionated, vociferous individuals. We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates. But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement. If only we remember that and give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country we will get through these challenging times. We will come through them stronger than before. We always do.

Ten years ago, I had the privilege to concede defeat in the election for president. I want to end my farewell to you with the heartfelt faith in Americans that I felt so powerfully that evening.

I feel it powerfully still.

Do not despair of our present difficulties but believe always in the promise and greatness of America, because nothing is inevitable here. Americans never quit. We never surrender. We never hide from history. We make history.

Farewell, fellow Americans. God bless you, and God bless America.”

[HenryA]

In response to ptourkin and crew.

No, no, no.

I really did think about not even posting so I did not muddy the intent of the thread. I kinda regret now that I posted at all.

Its not because you’re wrong about what you think about the Senator, but just because it is incredibly rude to post that in a thread titled “RIP.....”. The title is an expression of the OPs and others feelings about the passing. It’s not an invitation to to belittle, blame or denigrate the deceased whether it’s you, me or someone’s sister, mother or father. I fail to see any generational difference in how most people would consider other’s feelings. Although it may be that empathy develops as one ages.

This side thread is about forum decorum, and this is a good example of when folks might at least think about sitting on their hands.

[ORMojo]

Thank you for posting his parting words.

Just don't ban me for posting what is the most "political" statement yet in this thread. His farewell statement is both explicit, and subtle (look up the basis of the phrase "blood and soil"), in its concern about current politics.

[avalonracing]

Just don't ban me for posting what is the most "political" statement yet in this thread. His farewell statement is both explicit, and subtle (look up the basis of the phrase "blood and soil"), in its concern about current politics.

And:
"We weaken it when we hide behind walls"

[m4rk540]

Just don't ban me for posting what is the most "political" statement yet in this thread. His farewell statement is both explicit, and subtle (look up the basis of the phrase "blood and soil"), in its concern about current politics.

Well played, sir.

Checkmate.

[redir]

Respect points increased.

[Never]

I have to agree with the others who said that it's disingenuous to claim a thread commemorating a politician of McCain's stature can possibly be non-political.
....+1 I think drowning out dissent is not a good thing for fostering authentic community.
+2 (or 3, 4, 5, wherever we are in the chains now). The community loses, real communication vanishes, and soon it is all dissolved.

"Dissent" is a word with a broad scope, but it sounds to me like the "drowning out" has been and is being done, though, here now and in the past too. More than "drowning out" it seems even, and not only regarding political topics (although many topics except the most banal ones can also have "political" elements in some form or another; and grey is a color too).

And, really, everyone who posts here is posting from their (per HenryA, above) "personal **** show", and not just some people, right?

Like others already said if purely political (politics) topics are always considered so possibly incendiary that they require these a priori kindergarten kinds of warnings every single time, then why even allow them at all, on a cycling forum, even if it is ostensibly a discussion forum?

If these topics cause such divided interpretations in terms of what is considered fair and authentic communication, every time, then maybe just don't allow them, period? If the (unclear, but clearly present) restrictions are so tight that people then express not only their genuine, respectful thoughts (about Mr. McCain, in this case), but also their genuine fears (about maybe being banned even, in this case), then why even have these threads at all?

The cake/eating thing is a problem. It can't be that there is a single "right" definition as to how to discuss these issues; there is no such thing, even in pure autocracies. And yet there seems to be some intention to prefer exactly that.

If these topics are not allowed who would really care? Nobody will really cry much over any spilled milk, even though some farmers might protest some, or else just go find other farms and markets like some here seem to want some others to do already anyway.

[ergott]

I think that after someone dies that their eulogy (which a post like this is) is a safe space. Everyone deserves that - Hugo Chavez included.

Due to this being a bike forum I think it is too much to ask people to bite their tongues. People have very strong political beliefs that span the spectrum. I just don't see the desire to have an RIP thread for someone that has nothing to do with cycling. It adds nothing to Paceline the forum.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[djg21]

Due to this being a bike forum I think it is too much to ask people to bite their tongues. People have very strong political beliefs that span the spectrum. I just don't see the desire to have an RIP thread for someone that has nothing to do with cycling. It adds nothing to Paceline the forum.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Agree entirely. This is not the forum in which to announce the deaths of political figures. If a politician is prominent enough to warrant a post on his or her passing, the politician is likely to be polarizing too. Go to a political forum if you are so inclined.

[livingminimal]

Whenever someone, anyone at all dies, I send best wishes and thoughts to their family. Losing someone you love isnt easy. It doesnt matter their age, illness, or anything. I dont have to love John McCain or even respect him to send my best to his family that just lost someone very important to them.

With regards to love or respect for John McCain, I in fact, hold quite the opposite opinion and am completely baffled by some of the public reaction, in the form of lionization, to his passing.

It's much easier to willfully stride along platitudes and a terrible 4-5 year block of being a POW than to remember a composite picture of who someone was...


"Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran..."

Nonetheless, best to his family during this time of grief and mourning.
For them.

[livingminimal]

By all accounts, John McCain was a dedicated public servant and a basically good man. Those are qualities to be admired.

BK


My man, that is a remarkably low bar.

[AngryScientist]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, we're done here.