CSI Opinions..

[SoCalSteve]

Hi, I am sure this has been discussed many times and I looked through the search feature but didnt get the answer that I was looking for......So, here it goes:

I remember, in the past, people swearing by the CSI as the finest steel bike made (or one of them). My question is: What makes this such a fine frameset? And, please dont say: It's the tubes, damnit!

I am very curious as to why people swear by this frameset. Oh, one more thing, the Serotta F2 (Reynolds fork) is it any different, better or just more expensive than an Ouzo Pro?

As always, thank you in advance for answering my questions.

Steve

PS DBRK, interesting way the whole thing with IF unfolded (I read all the postings) You are a very articulate person and a breath of fresh air in a genre thats filled with nonsense (of course, this board is excluded from this).
Good luck with it all!

[Michael Katz]

I have a 2003 CSI with an F2 fork. In a nutshell, I am extremely pleased with the bike and every ride on it is a joy. It handles well, is very responsive to rider input and is stable on fast descents. While it took me a while to get used to a shorter top tube than other custom bikes I have, the fit is as comfortable as I could ever imagine a bike achieving. It climbs well with plenty of stiffness but yet the ride is very smooth with little road buzz but plenty of road feedback. While my other primary bike, which is a Spectrum ti, offers certain advantages in materials and ride and handling characteristics which are superlative, the overall ride of my CSI none the less consistently causes me to grin from the joy of each outing.

As to why, I think alot of it has to do with the qualities of steel as a frame material. There is a tactile feel to steel, a "spring to its step", an aesthetic to its appearance that no other material can duplicate. Coupled with great fit and design, the CSI offers a "package" that does everything very well and nothing wrong. Is that to say that it is a better bike than the steel offerings from designers such as Tom Kellogg or Dave Kirk? Not at all. At this level of competence in the craft of steel fabrication, there is no "best" - just some great choices and decissions get made based on personal tastes, comfort levels with the fit and design process and at times convenience and price. In my case, I chose the CSI because of my relationship with my LBS and because I wanted an 1 1/8" headtube as opposed to a traditional 1". If at some point I buy another steel frame, it will probably be a Spectrum because of the wholly positive experience I have had with my ti bike and the more traditional approach Tom Kellogg takes with his steel frames.

As to the F2 fork, I find it to be stiffer laterally than an Ouzo Pro but also better at absorbing road vibration. I am very satisified with it.

[Sandy]

Steve,

It is in the ride, damn it! In 1998, I started test riding bikes to perhaps replace my non-cared for Specialized Allez Epic, which was carbon fiber. I rode aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon bikes. I realized early on that all Serottas (test riding 4 different models in 98) are special. There is a genuine stability and solid feel that I found lacking in most other bikes. You ride a Serotta and the bike communicates to you that it is very composed, with a well balanced front and rear end. They all seemed very stable at speed and exhibited sure handling, never too quick, nor too sluggish. You find yourself being comfortable on them very quickly, with no steep learning curve, All Serottas seem very responsive to pedal input, which is translated efficiently and effectively to forward motion.

Now the steel CSi in 1998 simply took the aforementioned characteristics of all of the Serottas to a higher level. I found it to be easily the most responsive to pedal input of all the Serottas, with a road feel that only a steel bike can give you. It also gives superior compliancy, even with the stiff bottom bracket. I personally found the ride quality, relative to compliancy, every bit as good as either of the titanium models. Also the all lugged (in 1998) CSi is simply, to me, better looking than any of the other Serottas.

As soon as I test rode the CSi, I was done test riding bikes. It had it ALL- Amazing stability, great response to pedal input, compliant ride, superior handling and road feel, and awesome looks. It was a very easy choice for me. The test ride did it all.

Now the choice is harder. The 1 1/8" head tube CSi is no longer fully lugged, and the significantly cheaper tig welded CIII is supposedly every bit the bike as the CSi, except the looks. In addition, the Legend Ti and the Concours ti bikes have improved, with even more tuning available. Then of course, ther is the expensive Ottrott Or Ottrott ST......

OK Steve, I will stick my foot in my mouth and make this offer. If you go to a qualified fitter and purchase a CSi, and are not satisfied with the frameset, I will buy it from you at your purchase price, no matter the size. That is how confidint I am in the CSi. JUst be honest to me about it and don't tell me you don't like it after riding it for 10 years.

My CSi had the F1 fork, with a steel Steerer tube, possibly the best all time carbon fork. It is no longer made. MY new bike, another Serotta, has the F2 fork, which I believe is basically an Ouzo Pro which Serotta inspects and may make very minor modifications, possibly. My new bike with the F2 fork came with a Reynolds Ouzo Pro warranty card.

I hope that I have helped you some.


Dandy Sandy

[Michael Katz]

Sandy, I believe the O2 is the Ouzo Pro with the Serotta stamp of approval. The F2 is much beefier and is designed by Serotta and built by Ouzo.

[Sandy]

Michael and Steve,

Oops! Sorry!


Not so dandy, Sandy

[Elefantino]

My first Serotta was an Atlanta. It was a big leap for me because I had been riding a Trek 5200 and a Specialized S-Works and wasn't sure I wanted to make the retro leap back to steel. But I loved the Atlanta. It reminded me of my old Raleigh International. Comfortable, responsive, intuitive.

And then I bought the CSi. Game over. The CSi is the finest riding bike ever because, well, when I'm riding it, I don't even think about it. I just ride. That's about the best endorsement I can give. Not the most technical, I know ... I could go on about stiffness and the laser-like tracking of my F1 carbon fork with steel threaded steerer, still the best ... but bottom line is that the CSi is the road, extended.

Of course, there are those who say the same things about the Legend, Concours, Ottrott, Hors. ... so I guess it's up to you.

Hopelessly straddling all fences,
Mike

[Sandy]

Your comments about the CSi are very similar to my thoughts, which I didn't articulate, nor would they have been so short, or as well said. "I don't even think about it" and "the CSi is the road, extended" tell it exactly like it is. You simply go about riding the bike, having full confidence that the bike will do everything you want it with a oneness, not only with the road, but with your rider input. The road and you and the bike work together, as a team, in harmony.

I always thought that another way at looking at the CSi is the way I looked at Michael Jordan as a basketball player. He had no weaknesses. Most players were good or excellent in some aspects of the game. He was excellent in all aspects. The CSi is simply excellent at everything, so you don't have to think about it as you ride it. It won't let you down. You will not find out down the line that it has a weakness that you did not notice in a test ride or in the first 500 miles.

If I had to use one word to describe it, I would say Confidence.


Sandy

[Elefantino]

I'm hoping that "CSi: The road, extended" is noticed by Ben. I'd love a chance to come up with slogans for every other bike in the line! :D

[Sandy]

The Ottrott ST or Ottrott:

"A CSi on Steroids"

Maybe Ben will use each. That would be neat!!! :) :)

Sandy

[Sandy]

Maybe for the Ottrott simply "Serotta on Steroids" :)

[Serotta PETE]

Maybe simply Sandy or Steroids...................

[Doc Austin]

I put about 27,000 miles on my CSI before I figured I deserved a new bike, so I ordered a new Serotta Legend TI. I have hopped back and forth between the two for two years now and I can say I like the CSI every bit as much as the TI. Part of this is the recently installed F-1 fork that brought the CSI's handling up to the same tracking stability as the TI, and part of this might be the confort of having so much time on her, but the CSI is still right in there with the TI, IMHO.

I love the TI, make no mistake, but it isn't a day and night kind of thing between it and the CSI. It rides a little smoother and I am a little more confident on it when doing stupid things (like plunging down into a ravine on a twisting, off camber and curving golf cart path, across a rickety wooden bridge over a creek with a shallow, rocky bottom), but the bikes are really very similar.

Right now the TI is spit shined and hung up in the gymn while and I am pounding out the miles on the CSI. I'm still learning the CSI's bahavior with this new fork, but it seems to get better and better and better every day.

When I jump back on the TI, it always feels great and I always think that, hey, this is the bike, baby. But when I get back on the CSI, well, it's like an old set of slippers.

Technically, I really can't give any valuable imput on the differences, but in my my heart, I love them equally.

I honestly can't choose between the two, so the CSI must be pretty darned good. To save myself a bunch of redundant writing, here are my previous rantings about the bike (and pictures):

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=2211

[Sandy]

If you meant what you posted, Sandy or Steroids, then both chioces are equally bad. If you meant Sandy on Steroids, the choice is even worse!

With 743 pounds of pure muscle, 22 inch waist, 2.1 percent body fat (jealous aren't you LittleBigMac), :)

Steroid Serotta Sandy

[pjm]

I believe the F2 also has Ti dropouts which the Ouzo Pro lacks.

[Sandy]

I think that you are correct.

[SoCalSteve]

Thanks so much for everyone's input. Sandy, your offer is truly generous, but, I would never take you up on it. I buy and sell bikes all the time and if I didnt like it, I'd just sell it and buy a different one. (thats why ebay was invented!)

I have 3 bikes in my stable now and each is very different than the next. I was thinking of changing out my newly repainted CSI for maybe a Dave Kirk or some such thing. But after reading all of the postings, I think I will keep the CSI, put some miles on it and get to know it a little better.

My 3 rides:

Seven Axiom, Seven fork, Rolf Vector Pro's and a D/A Triple

Calfee Luna Pro, Alpha fork, D/A wheelset and a D/A Triple

Serotta CSI,Seotta F2 fork, Mavic Kysrium SSC and a D/A Triple

Again, thank you,

Steve

PS I'm surprised that DBRK hasnt added to this posting. Maybe he's still in discussions with IF and doesnt have time for the boards right now...

[Serotta PETE]

You missed some great riding in Raleigh this weekend....IT was a "rain out" of the highest order. Went to the Cycle D Oro show in Greensboro on SUnday and saw a bunch of older bikes (Cinellis, Colnago, slew of English....). Additionally Richard Sachs, Richard Schwinn, and JP Wiegle were there.....

Spokes was good and only acquired a T Shirt.....Since is was antiques, someone actually made a bid on me....but I could not give them change of a penny.

Sandy when does your Calfee arrive????.

[dbrk]

I'm not even sure how many examples of the CSi I've actually owned over the years, something like ten. I've had the chance to ride different sizes, the steel and the F1 fork, different versions of the CC tubeset, and whatever difference the years, experience, and style creates. I currently have two CSi and two Atlantas, which is for all intents and purposes the identical ride to the CSi minus the slightly fancier lug set. Atlanta is not the same tubeset but as far as I am concerned it rides unmistakeably like a Serotta and I can't really tell the difference with the CSi because I know I would flunk the blind test (were it not for aesthetics which are quite different, especially in the seat cluster).

Three of these steel Serottas have custom forks, all built by Curt Goodrich to Serotta specs. One came with the Icon carbon (Atlanta), one without any fork (Atlanta in silver), and my last year's TdF lugged custom with a fork that did not suit my tastes in appearance. I've talked about this before so I'll not go on about it except to say that the very simple Henry James crown on the steel fork did not strike me as the best match for the TdF lugs. I think the older Serotta fork crowns are much nicer too than this because they have some flare and keep a simple profile. So Curt built me one with a Pacenti crown and I had the ht extension shaved off too because, well, I didn't need it and so neither did the bike. I mention all this because it sort of gives me a basis for comparing Serotta steel even in a given day. The bikes are built very differently and each has a personality as much a feature of the parts (group, wheels and tires especially) as the frame. All measure btwn 58-60cm, the 58 Atlanta (with brand new paint and Goodrich fork with James crown, simple is as simple warrants in my world) is for sale. A little clarity:
*somethinglike '97-98 60cm CSi with Serotta "S" debossed semisloping crown, painted Onyx with blue decals, has a full Mavic 7/8speed group (post-"Erector set" rear der, so the so-called 840 group) with indexing Mavic dt shifters, Mavic 501 hubs on MA40 rims in perfect shape.
*98 58cm Atlanta (quicksilver with black/whiteoutline decals) DA 9 (any buyers? drop me a line for a GREAT deal!!), not ridden, just hanging but ridden back when it was red/yellow fade with even older Mavic group...
*98ish 60cm Atlanta (sapphire blue with silver outline decals, JB paint) DA 9, belonged to Jon Our Doctor, has a Goodrich built fork with a Pacenti crown, Open Pros on DA or Ult hubs
*03 60cmx56 custom CSi with TdF hubs, specially laid back sta, 8drop bb, longer stays, clearly not like the earlier bikes in design.

What I like about these bikes best is that they are utterly predictable and forgiving to the rider whether you like to go fast or slow, whether you turn hard or easy, descend like you are crazy or just easy does it. Serotta steel lets you ride the bike without having to pay great attention especially in the front end or when the bike is doing something sketchy (like descending or carving). This is exactly what I would call "neutral" but that should be taken in the most positive and effective sense. These are bikes that allow you to do what you like best and do not complain or comment but rather simply rise to the occasion.

I usually ride alone, this being the middle of nowhere but I also ride with a pal who aspires to ride more and faster. I like to ride the 60x60 bikes with him because they are gentle and long, I sit up alot, take my hands off the bars under any circumstances, no problem. I take the custom CSi when I feel like being more racy, as it were. I think the newest bike, the custom CSi, even though it has slacker angles, lower bb, and longer stays actually feels a bit more lithe on the climbs. (I could be making that up.)

There are other steel bikes I would call neutral. My Masi GC is likely the only one left who front end I would call noticeably more aggressive and pointy, though I think Dario's bikes are overall more aggressive in a very positive way. By "aggressive" I mean two things: first, that they command more attention to feel as happy and safe and correct, and second, they really want to be pushed because they perform better when carved, pushed, asked to do more rather than less.

I prefer bikes overall that are not aggressive by character and that are soft rather than brittle, harsh, or road-responsive. I prefer steel by far to aluminum, carbon, or titanium because it gives more road feel than ti and carbon but much, much less than even the best aluminum (Fina Estampa is my benchmark).

I own a fair lot of bikes I suppose (though not nearly as many as some folks) but I tend to own more than one of the same ones and then set them up differently. I like certain designs, geos wise, and then make the bikes very different by their set ups. So there are a slew of Rivendells, a coupla' Mariposa and RichieSachs, Singers and Herse, a pair of Sevens (Axiom and Odonata) Serottas and Hampstens, Pegoretti and Moots. I like these best and mixed in are certain one-offs: DeRosa, Ibis, Berthoud, Waterford, etc. But the reason I keep buying the same brands is that these are the rides I really understand and like best for the design. With IF the bike is nearly entirely custom design in the modern form and, honestly, my ideas which are beautifully executed.

There's way more in tires, wheels, and some parts to give personality than just the frame but the frame and fork being the heart of the matter are the place I think we come essences. Serotta's essence is brilliant. Their tubes are the most beautiful in the business to behold and the workmanship is very, very good though others who are one-off in steel (Rivendell, Sachs, Kirk, these being the ones I have) have a clear edge in details of aesthetics.

dbrk