OT - Pennsylvania abuses.

[Chris]

I know this may be a little emotionally charged and I don’t tend to just troll, but I was hoping we could have a conversation without it ending up like that. This was pretty much the last straw for me with the Catholic Church. I am not a Catholic nor am I religious. I’m actually pretty agnostic but my family and I do participate in a local church, my kids much more so than me. I do think there are some good things to be gained by participation in some sort of organized thought about the universe and your responsibility to our fellow man during your childhood. I am even the godfather to my friend’s two children. But I am to the point that I do not think that I will ever step foot in a Catholic Church again. I can’t think of any other organization that would be allowed to have dealt with things like this in our country. If this was a series of daycares everybody involved would be in prison. I hope they post the name and address of every priest involved in this atrocity. I am just sickened by the whole thing. There was a a time 10 or 15 years ago when this first started to come out so publicly that I said that you can’t blame the organization for the actions of some of its members. I no longer believe that in this case. The Catholic Church has fermented this all along and gone out of its way to protect the abusers and leave the innocents without recourse.

[glepore]

Born Catholic, educated k-law school in Catholic institutions, won't set foot now.
There are some good people in the organization, but even they had to know.

[Chris]

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not looking for vitriol, but facts is facts. At what point in society do people stand up and say that too many excuses and look the other ways have happened?

[oldpotatoe]

I know this may be a little emotionally charged and I don’t tend to just troll, but I was hoping we could have a conversation without it ending up like that. This was pretty much the last straw for me with the Catholic Church. I am not a Catholic nor am I religious. I’m actually pretty agnostic but my family and I do participate in a local church, my kids much more so than me. I do think there are some good things to be gained by participation in some sort of organized thought about the universe and your responsibility to our fellow man during your childhood. I am even the godfather to my friend’s two children. But I am to the point that I do not think that I will ever step foot in a Catholic Church again. I can’t think of any other organization that would be allowed to have dealt with things like this in our country. If this was a series of daycares everybody involved would be in prison. I hope they post the name and address of every priest involved in this atrocity. I am just sickened by the whole thing. There was a a time 10 or 15 years ago when this first started to come out so publicly that I said that you can’t blame the organization for the actions of some of its members. I no longer believe that in this case. The Catholic Church has fermented this all along and gone out of its way to protect the abusers and leave the innocents without recourse.

We'll see where this goes but 'organized religion' isn't about the above things any longer, IMHO..but about power, control, guilt, and of course...$$$$$.

I don't think it's unique to the Catholic Church, but maybe more pervasive due to the church's archaic rules and laws.

[e-RICHIE]

I know this may be a little emotionally charged and I don’t tend to just troll, but I was hoping we could have a conversation without it ending up like that. This was pretty much the last straw for me with the Catholic Church. I am not a Catholic nor am I religious. I’m actually pretty agnostic but my family and I do participate in a local church, my kids much more so than me. I do think there are some good things to be gained by participation in some sort of organized thought about the universe and your responsibility to our fellow man during your childhood. I am even the godfather to my friend’s two children. But I am to the point that I do not think that I will ever step foot in a Catholic Church again. I can’t think of any other organization that would be allowed to have dealt with things like this in our country. If this was a series of daycares everybody involved would be in prison. I hope they post the name and address of every priest involved in this atrocity. I am just sickened by the whole thing. There was a a time 10 or 15 years ago when this first started to come out so publicly that I said that you can’t blame the organization for the actions of some of its members. I no longer believe that in this case. The Catholic Church has fermented this all along and gone out of its way to protect the abusers and leave the innocents without recourse.


Thank you.

[GregL]

I was raised in a Catholic family, but left the church in adulthood due to multiple philosophical differences. The hypocrisy I saw first-hand disgusted me. A horrible rape case in 2009 (http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html) and the church's reaction to it made my departure permanent.

Greg

[AngryScientist]

i too was raised in a very italian catholic family, but have turned my back on the catholic church a long time ago.

the amount of outrage, confusion and disgust i feel about this is hard to put into words.

IMO we as a society should not let this go, and talk about it quietly behind closed doors. there SHOULD be public outrage, and cries to bring down this horrendous institution.

this institution has (and continues to) raped our children, oppressed our women, alienated homosexuals, and covered it all up. the church, as far as i know is funded 100% by donations - who in good conscience gives money to such an organization? how many bucks dropped in the collection basket have gone to cover up rapist pigs? bleed them dry IMO.

[Richard]

If one removes the notion of and commitment of faith from any religion (not just Catholic) and analyzes it with a disparate eye, the doctrines are about exercising power and maintaining the status quo. If, in order to do that, crimes against the "people" are ignored, it is just an autocratic system being autocratic.

[cash05458]

Catholic theology aside and just how messed up that has always been...the entire structure described via this stuff has every hallmark of organized pedo ring...the protection of the organization and the higher ups, the inside secrecy, the transfers to other Dioceses to continue the abuse and withholding of knowledge to make sure it continues elsewhere...and even now while the Church claims it is only on the side of victims, financially supporting lawyers to lobby against any change in law that might hold folks still accountable...if you can find a better definition of an organized pedo ring, I would love to hear it.

[redir]

I was born and raised Catholic, went to the Catholic schools and church every holy day and every Sunday. I was always an atheist however, even in my early youth I could never come around to believing in any of that stuff. It's probably the reason why I went on to become a geologist. But I digress....

I've never seen it in my time with the church and I was an alter boy too. I was actually quite fond of some of the priests and the brothers. They were ok people in my book.

What I wonder is how the hell does this even happen in the first place? I mean does a priest become corrupted into pedophilia or do pedophiles just know that joining the priesthood is a way for them to get away with it? And even when a pedophile joins the priest hood how does he communicate to his fellow priests that he's into pedophilia in the first place? A little joke at first perhaps? Slip some material under the door jam? I mean how?

And then furthermore a whole freakin subculture organization forms within the priest hood? How?

But the protection racket is the icing on the cake.

[parco]

I'm not Catholic but I thought Priests took a vow of chastity. No?

[Jaybee]

I'm not Catholic but I thought Priests took a vow of chastity. No?

People, religious included, are experts at saying one thing and doing another.

[pncguy]

I have lots to say about this and some strong opinions. But I find that these conversations are much more interesting, friendly, and productive when they're had over a beer. So if you're in the Denver/Boulder area and you want to chat, feel free to PM me.

FWIW, I'm a member of a "Christian Church" which is described generally but well in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_churches_and_churches_of_Christ

[93KgBike]

the amount of outrage, confusion and disgust i feel about this is hard to put into words.

there SHOULD be public outrage, and cries to bring down this horrendous institution.

I had a little freak-out rage-out with my wife after I put the kids to bed last night.

Half of my family are/were Catholic and the rest of us are/were Episcopalian. I left the church long ago also, during the Bevilacqua era, so I am not anywhere near satisfied with this largely public shaming. PA would have gotten rid of the statute of limitations for rape and child-rape in the '80s if it weren't for his connections.

Wuerl replaced McCarrick in DC. How are they any different!

Monsters, being created by the Vatican rape factory.

[shoota]

We'll see where this goes but 'organized religion' isn't about the above things any longer, IMHO..but about power, control, guilt, and of course...$$$$$.

I don't think it's unique to the Catholic Church, but maybe more pervasive due to the church's archaic rules and laws.

Ding ding ding

[colker]

The catholic church fought brutal dictatorships everywhere from central america to africa. Priests and nuns were killed, tortured and raped for protecting the miserable.
Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps.
The catholic church was the only help for campesinos/ native americans in Mexico during the 19th century: wasn´t for the missions and communal lands, thousands would die of hunger.

I am not saying tehy are better than any other human: they are flawed. Otoh there is a huge anti catholic propaganda in the United States and it´s not new. America is protestant.

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.
I have the utmost respect for religious catholics:i´ve seen them go out of their ways to help others just for mercy. Those in need would have a worse fate if depended only on secular assistance, to say the least. Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

I don´t come often to the forum anymore but i had to say this: you guys are completely wrong in despising the entire church because there is more to catholic faith than the sexual abuse.

[cash05458]

I'm not Catholic but I thought Priests took a vow of chastity. No?

When I was doing my Phd at a Catholic university in Europe I had many friends who were priests and there studying for higher degrees...they had been sent there by the Church for further education...they thought it frankly hilarious that I thought the same thing and actually believed that to be the case with "most" priests...some straight, some gay but the overwhelming consensus was that having sexual relationships was fairly predominant among them...

[RFC]

I am not Catholic and do not subscribe to any specific faith. Yes, this is horrible and I'm sure as more comes out from the report it will get worse and worse.

The Vatican has not yet responded. In my mind, the Pope has to respond with a loud voice and drastic actions. Can the Vatican take over a morally bankrupt diocese?

[cash05458]

Colker: "Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps."

I am sure that might be true...but you might want also to look up Pius Xll and the overall institutional response to the Holocaust...it's not good reading I can assure you.

[drewski]

The catholic church fought brutal dictatorships everywhere from central america to africa. Priests and nuns were killed, tortured and raped for protecting the miserable.
Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps.
The catholic church was the only help for campesinos/ native americans in Mexico during the 19th century: wasn´t for the missions and communal lands, thousands would die of hunger.

I am not saying tehy are better than any other human: they are flawed. Otoh there is a huge anti catholic propaganda in the United States and it´s not new. America is protestant.

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.
I have the utmost respect for religious catholics:i´ve seen them go out of their ways to help others just for mercy. Those in need would have a worse fate if depended only on secular assistance, to say the least. Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

I don´t come often to the forum anymore but i had to say this: you guys are completely wrong in despising the entire church because there is more to catholic faith than the sexual abuse.


Going to get this off my chest before the thread gets shut down.
The Catholic Church in Spain and Ireland supported Spain under Franco.
Catholic church gave comfort to death squads in Argentina in the 1970's.

Looks like Bergoglio -Pope Francis was a pretty alright man of the cloth when stuff was going down in the dirty war in Argentina.

https://nypost.com/2014/03/13/pope-francis-saved-many-from-argentinas-death-squads/

[joosttx]

My simple take is this: The Church and the people that did and hid these sick crimes need to pay. No matter how good you or your institution is to humankind it does not absolve.

We need to open the statute of limitations for molestation and racketeering crimes and (Im not sure this is the case) allow The Church to be sued in civil court by victims.

I have written an email to my senators and congresspersons today. Perhaps if you are angered by this sick abuse of power you will too.

[jamesdak]

The catholic church fought brutal dictatorships everywhere from central america to africa. Priests and nuns were killed, tortured and raped for protecting the miserable.
Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps.
The catholic church was the only help for campesinos/ native americans in Mexico during the 19th century: wasn´t for the missions and communal lands, thousands would die of hunger.

I am not saying tehy are better than any other human: they are flawed. Otoh there is a huge anti catholic propaganda in the United States and it´s not new. America is protestant.

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.
I have the utmost respect for religious catholics:i´ve seen them go out of their ways to help others just for mercy. Those in need would have a worse fate if depended only on secular assistance, to say the least. Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

I don´t come often to the forum anymore but i had to say this: you guys are completely wrong in despising the entire church because there is more to catholic faith than the sexual abuse.

Ummm.....yeah need to do a whole lot more looking at the history of the Catholic Church. It's not just "American" prejudice.

And good people are good people irregardless of religion.

[BobO]

Can the Vatican take over a morally bankrupt diocese?

Probably, the Pope's rule is law on earth and in heaven, so he likely can do whatever is deemed necessary. That being said, the organization of the church is still feudal in nature. It would ordinarily be the Cardinal's duty to deal with the Bishop of the corrupt diocese before the Pope became involved.

When I was an altar boy I was perilously close to one of these abuse incidents. I was not abused, but at least two of the boys I knew were. The offending priest was simply moved to another church as a way of making the problem go away. I don't pretend to know the answers, but the incidents are far too common for there not to be a systemic issue that at least enables the behavior. It's difficult to say that the church doesn't serve a positive purpose for a lot of people, but it's also hard to ignore the damage that is and has been done.

[AngryScientist]

I have written an email to my senators and congresspersons today. Perhaps if you are angered by this sick abuse of power you will too.

agreed and will do.

[cash05458]

I am not Catholic and do not subscribe to any specific faith. Yes, this is horrible and I'm sure as more comes out from the report it will get worse and worse.

The Vatican has not yet responded. In my mind, the Pope has to respond with a loud voice and drastic actions. Can the Vatican take over a morally bankrupt diocese?


yes, of course they can...one interesting thing is that if you get caught embezzling money from the church guess what they do? They call the police and you will go to jail. They will do their utmost to make sure you are prosecuted by the authorities. Rape a child? Get transferred somewhere else to protect you and ensure that you might continue.

Sorry, but that is a pedo ring...

[ColonelJLloyd]

Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

:no:

[Chris]

The catholic church fought brutal dictatorships everywhere from central america to africa. Priests and nuns were killed, tortured and raped for protecting the miserable.
Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps.
The catholic church was the only help for campesinos/ native americans in Mexico during the 19th century: wasn´t for the missions and communal lands, thousands would die of hunger.

I am not saying tehy are better than any other human: they are flawed. Otoh there is a huge anti catholic propaganda in the United States and it´s not new. America is protestant.

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.
I have the utmost respect for religious catholics:i´ve seen them go out of their ways to help others just for mercy. Those in need would have a worse fate if depended only on secular assistance, to say the least. Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

I don´t come often to the forum anymore but i had to say this: you guys are completely wrong in despising the entire church because there is more to catholic faith than the sexual abuse.

It’s more than we’ll documented that the Catholic Church made deals with the Nazis to look the other way. I don’t know that it’s record in human rights is in anyway stellar or even that the good outweighs the bad as an aggregate.

[cash05458]

As this is being discussed and no, I don't hope things get heated...but here is a personal story. I had a good friend in Belgium who had been abused by his local village priest when he was a kid...my friend was in his late 40's at this point. The Church did nothing tho many had spoken about it.

One night he and I were in a bar together and the tv was on...local news told the story that day of an old priest who was murdered in his village by some fellow who just walked up and stabbed him to death. Turns out the killer was a guy who had been abused by the same priest and couldn't take it anymore.

My friend looked at me and with a slight smile told me that in fact this was the same priest who had abused him as a child...so it goes I suppose...

[colker]

It’s more than we’ll documented that the Catholic Church made deals with the Nazis to look the other way. I don’t know that it’s record in human rights is in anyway stellar or even that the good outweighs the bad as an aggregate.

Cino Bartali and franciscan monks helped save jews from the holocaust. Bartali would smuggle information while cycling across Italy.
Not only them.... other italian churches did it as well.

There are other sides to the Catholic church than sex abuse and corruption. That said i am out.

[cash05458]

Cino Bartali and franciscan monks helped save jews from the holocaust. Bartali would smuggle information while cycling across Italy.
Not only them.... other italian churches did it as well.

There are other sides to the Catholic church than sex abuse and corruption. That said i am out.

Colker...I don't think anyone at all here is saying that there aren't good and moral Catholics who do the right thing...not at all...rather, it is a discussion of how this institution has behaved via some very serious things...

[johnmdesigner]

Martin Luther pretty much said all this in 1517.
Hopefully this will be the tipping point of an institution that has been in decline in the West for decades.
Pretty much the reason the hierarchy concentrated their efforts on the export of doctrine to third world countries. Just like Phillip Morris.
The OP's comments are spot on.

[oldpotatoe]

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.

Hardly any 'fact'.....You don't need any organized religion to be spiritual..that's marketing 101 from organized religion. And bring your wallet...

[gary_a_gooner]

and good people are good people irregardless of religion.

amen

[Chris]

Cino Bartali and franciscan monks helped save jews from the holocaust. Bartali would smuggle information while cycling across Italy.
Not only them.... other italian churches did it as well.

There are other sides to the Catholic church than sex abuse and corruption. That said i am out.

I hope you’re still here and I hope you don’t leave the conversation because of this because you’re adding value. You are 100% correct in regards to the parishioners of the faith. And of the examples that you gave of wartime assistance from those parishioners. We are talking about the “corporate“ aspect of the Catholic Church that will do anything to keep the church afloat including dismissing allegations and burying events in an effort to preserve the church over the cost to its parishioners. Even gone so far as to move funds from diocese back to Rome so that those funds would not be available in settlements to the abused. That is the ultimate betrayal. I don’t have a thing against people who are religious Catholics. I have several friends who are and I would never discourage them from their faith. But that is completely separate from that which is the ruling body of the Catholic Church. That part has gone off the rails and has been for decades. Corporations who had knowledge of and were complicit (either actively or by their looking the other way. Reference Paul’s criticism of the sin of omission) in atrocities like what has been knowingly going on these past several years and for millennia no doubt should be held accountable.

[Mzilliox]

there are good people on all sides right? some of them happen to be catholic. that does not absolve those who also happen to be catholic and horrible.

Horrible people should be made examples of. it should be very taboo to be horrible. this includes politicians, bankers, teachers, and everyone. If i ever behave horribly towards others, someone please make the worst example out of me, laugh at me, toss rocks my way, and do not let me convince you i am winning because my horrible behavior has won me a few successes.

[colker]

Hardly any 'fact'.....You don't need any organized religion to be spiritual..that's marketing 101 from organized religion. And bring your wallet...

"Hardly any 'fact'....."
There has been an increase in suicide numbers over the last 15 yrs. If that´s not a spiritual black hole then nothing else is..

"You don't need any organized religion to be spiritual."
Sometimes you do need a place somewhere to rest your spirit and regain strength. Some people are troubled. If we had a daily pace guided by spirituality and not power hunger, religion would be gone already.

[colker]

I hope you’re still here and I hope you don’t leave the conversation because of this because you’re adding value. You are 100% correct in regards to the parishioners of the faith. And of the examples that you gave of wartime assistance from those parishioners. We are talking about the “corporate“ aspect of the Catholic Church that will do anything to keep the church afloat including dismissing allegations and burying events in an effort to preserve the church over the cost to its parishioners. Even gone so far as to move funds from diocese back to Rome so that those funds would not be available in settlements to the abused. That is the ultimate betrayal. I don’t have a thing against people who are religious Catholics. I have several friends who are and I would never discourage them from their faith. But that is completely separate from that which is the ruling body of the Catholic Church. That part has gone off the rails and has been for decades. Corporations who had knowledge of and were complicit (either actively or by their looking the other way. Reference Paul’s criticism of the sin of omission) in atrocities like what has been knowingly going on these past several years and for millennia no doubt should be held accountable.

That´s true.

[m4rk540]

Martin Luther pretty much said all this in 1517.
Hopefully this will be the tipping point of an institution that has been in decline in the West for decades.
Pretty much the reason the hierarchy concentrated their efforts on the export of doctrine to third world countries. Just like Phillip Morris.
The OP's comments are spot on.

johnmhistorian...lol

[colker]

Martin Luther pretty much said all this in 1517.
Hopefully this will be the tipping point of an institution that has been in decline in the West for decades.
Pretty much the reason the hierarchy concentrated their efforts on the export of doctrine to third world countries. Just like Phillip Morris.
The OP's comments are spot on.

... our faith is better than their faith, yeah, right.

[oldpotatoe]

"Hardly any 'fact'....."
There has been an increase in suicide numbers over the last 15 yrs. If that´s not a spiritual black hole then nothing else is..

"You don't need any organized religion to be spiritual."
Sometimes you do need a place somewhere to rest your spirit and regain strength. Some people are troubled. If we had a daily pace guided by spirituality and not power hunger, religion would be gone already.

Your opinion..it could be plenty of things and many of those suicide victims were victims of abuse at the hands of religious leaders..

"Rest your spirit and regain strength", I agree 100% but to imply the only place to do that is w/i the walls of a organized religion church isn't accurate(implication, Christian church..my impression).

I agree with the last sentence also but I certainly don't agree that THAT guidance is the sole possession of organized religion..Religion came to be mostly from fear('God Fearing'), risk of punishment, desire for control(pablum for the masses) and a way for 'teachers' to explain the inexplicable.

"Many paths, same destination"...

[weisan]

Rest assured, none of these will go unpunished.

And they know it.

The very thing or person these people put their faith in or take comfort from is also the very thing or person that will met out the stiffest sentence and the most appropriate punishment. It's a paradox but it's true. Mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin. It's a sad day. It's a glorious day.

[colker]

Your opinion..it could be plenty of things and many of those suicide victims were victims of abuse at the hands of religious leaders..

"Rest your spirit and regain strength", I agree 100% but to imply the only place to do that is w/i the walls of a organized religion church isn't accurate(implication, Christian church..my impression).

I agree with the last sentence also but I certainly don't agree that THAT guidance is the sole possession of organized religion..Religion came to be mostly from fear('God Fearing'), risk of punishment, desire for control(pablum for the masses) and a way for 'teachers' to explain the inexplicable.

"Many paths, same destination"...
It could the catholic church and their priests. It could be a synagogue and a rabbi. It could be a Budhist monastery and the monks.
The institution provides shelter for the needed and also for the knowledge.
If any member of these institutions abuse the needed then it could not be more wrong.. but it does not say the entire institution is corrupt or evil or even decadent.

[Davist]

Nice thread name.. I get the locale was in PA, don't think this has been an isolated issue here, so as one of your friends in PA, well..

[djg]

I don’t see how this thread can possibly go well. I am not Catholic — never have been — and don’t mean to offer an apology for the Catholic Church, whether in the face of recent terrible news or anything else. But how are off-the-cuff posts on a major world religion, or on all such religions, likely to fit forum guidelines? Have they so far?

[johnmdesigner]

... our faith is better than their faith, yeah, right.

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.
That includes the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther condemned Pope Leo's practice of selling forgiveness for your sins (indulgences) for a monetary payment used to build St. Peter's.
Seems like a reasonable grievance.

[ColonelJLloyd]

If any member of these institutions abuse the needed then it could not be more wrong.. but it does not say the entire institution is corrupt or evil or even decadent.

I think they point here is that there is evidence the institution is, indeed, corrupt.

[s4life]

"Hardly any 'fact'....."
There has been an increase in suicide numbers over the last 15 yrs. If that´s not a spiritual black hole then nothing else is..

"You don't need any organized religion to be spiritual."
Sometimes you do need a place somewhere to rest your spirit and regain strength. Some people are troubled. If we had a daily pace guided by spirituality and not power hunger, religion would be gone already.

hmm spirituality and religion are not the same thing, try meditation.

[drewski]

Cino Bartali and franciscan monks helped save jews from the holocaust. Bartali would smuggle information while cycling across Italy.
Not only them.... other italian churches did it as well.

There are other sides to the Catholic church than sex abuse and corruption. That said i am out.

Gino the "pious" was a beautiful man.

[93KgBike]

Colker, until the end of WW1 the Pope was an emperor with a standing army. It took the invasion of the French to depose that monarchy and establish the modern Italian State. That right there is the source of the anti-catholic sentiment you speak of, and protestantism grew out of centuries of different nations confronting the Vatican's use of violence and terror to control people and amass wealth. There is a long and sordid history you've not read which has nothing at all to do with the gospels or faith. Just as an institution that has secreted the habitual sexual abuse of children by its leaders has no basis in the gospels or faith.

Can you imagine ANY other organization which had 300 "pedophile predators" (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/over-300-predator-priests-pennsylvania-accused-abuse-grand-jury-report-n900646) in its leadership being allowed to exist? ANY?

[Mikej]

Just imagine if this was about Muslims and terrorism, everybody would loose their $hit -

[Plum Hill]

Local Catholic priest was arrested for possession of kiddie porn last year. Someone got him out on bail and he’s has been kept out of site. No trial, no sentence.
And he wasn’t the first in the area.

Cafeteria Catholic: one picks and chooses what they want to believe in, just like picking the food items one wants in a cafeteria line.

I was raised in the United Church of Christ. During confirmation class, the minister said there were two ways to lose membership in the church. I bit. What are those two things?
1) commit a heinous crime against the church.
OK, I can see that.
2) give no offering for a period of ‘x’ years.
Whoa! So it’s all about money?
In a small town there aren’t many secrets. The biggest sinners and wife beaters were always in church, many days in the front rows.
Nixed organized religion and make every attempt to live my life by the Golden Rule and the Theory of Reciprocity.

[jamesdak]

I think they point here is that there is evidence the institution is, indeed, corrupt.

Exactly! How many times has this problem surfaced within the "church"?? :rolleyes:

[johnmdesigner]

The Inquisition and the Crusades were supposed to fix all these problems.

[goonster]

The Inquisition and the Crusades were supposed to fix all these problems.

No one expected that.

[Chris]

Nice thread name.. I get the locale was in PA, don't think this has been an isolated issue here, so as one of your friends in PA, well..

I didn't mean any offense toward PA. My point was that this last episode of such disgusting behavior has pushed me over the edge. PA just happened to be where the news came from. You're in the clear now because Philly parishes were not in on the investigations... :rolleyes:

[Chris]

Just imagine if this was about Muslims and terrorism, everybody would loose their $hit -

Some of you are missing the point. This thread is not about religion per se, any more than Campy vs Shimano threads are. No one has disparaged practitioners of the faith and I would hope that wouldn't happen. It's no one's business how you choose to interact with the divine/unknown or from what framework you choose to do so. This is about an institution that has protected it's "employees" from the atrocities they have committed in the years and done so in such reprehensible ways that it boggles the mind how it has been continually allowed to keep the shop open so to speak. Again, no daycare with that record would be open and everyone involved would be in prison. There are several brands that for my own personal reasons, I choose not to utilize, participate in events associated with or spend my money for. The Catholic Church is now one of those for me.

[echappist]

No one expected that.

https://pics.me.me/nobody-ever-expects-the-spanish-inquisition-bet-you-werent-expecting-2807910.png

[notsew]

The catholic church fought brutal dictatorships everywhere from central america to africa. Priests and nuns were killed, tortured and raped for protecting the miserable.
Priests risked their lives saving jewish families from nazi extermination camps.
The catholic church was the only help for campesinos/ native americans in Mexico during the 19th century: wasn´t for the missions and communal lands, thousands would die of hunger.

I am not saying tehy are better than any other human: they are flawed. Otoh there is a huge anti catholic propaganda in the United States and it´s not new. America is protestant.

It´s easy to preach morality against religion but fact is we are living a huge spiritual black hole.
I have the utmost respect for religious catholics:i´ve seen them go out of their ways to help others just for mercy. Those in need would have a worse fate if depended only on secular assistance, to say the least. Mercy is one of the most precious notions in humanity and brought to us by the church.

I don´t come often to the forum anymore but i had to say this: you guys are completely wrong in despising the entire church because there is more to catholic faith than the sexual abuse.

As has been said, good people are good people.

I'd also point out that the corporate church didn't exactly embrace the liberation theology and activities of a lot of those groups in the global south.

[AngryScientist]

Some of you are missing the point. This thread is not about religion per se, any more than Campy vs Shimano threads are. No one has disparaged practitioners of the faith and I would hope that wouldn't happen. It's no one's business how you choose to interact with the divine/unknown or from what framework you choose to do so. This is about an institution that has protected it's "employees" from the atrocities they have committed in the years and done so in such reprehensible ways that it boggles the mind how it has been continually allowed to keep the shop open so to speak. Again, no daycare with that record would be open and everyone involved would be in prison. There are several brands that for my own personal reasons, I choose not to utilize, participate in events associated with or spend my money for. The Catholic Church is now one of those for me.

I agree Chris, and that's the main reason i didnt close the thread. We should be able to separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a religious one. the way i see it, it is not much different than if ABC or NBC was protecting a news anchor who is a known sexual predator instead of allowing them to be prosecuted under the law.

[Chris]

I agree Chris, and that's the main reason i didnt close the thread. We should be able to separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a religious one. the way i see it, it is not much different than if ABC or NBC was protecting a news anchor who is a known sexual predator instead of allowing them to be prosecuted under the law.

Thank you

[Mark McM]

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

[joosttx]

I agree Chris, and that's the main reason i didnt close the thread. We should be able to separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a religious one. the way i see it, it is not much different than if ABC or NBC was protecting a news anchor who is a known sexual predator instead of allowing them to be prosecuted under the law.

Nick, I get what you are saying but the Grand Jury identified over 1000 victims (children) and systemic coverup to protect the institution and perps. It seems to be more sinister than a corporate cover up of top dogs sexual predation.

[AngryScientist]

Nick,

I get what you are saying but the Grand Jury identified over 1000 victims (children) and systemic coverup to protect the institution and perps.

agree 100%.

just saying that i think we can discuss this here without it necessarily being a "religious" debate. The actual scale of what has been allowed to happen is absolutely disgusting to me.

[GregL]

I didn't mean any offense toward PA. My point was that this last episode of such disgusting behavior has pushed me over the edge. PA just happened to be where the news came from. You're in the clear now because Philly parishes were not in on the investigations... :rolleyes:
From my perspective, this is actually a positive for the good state of Pennsylvania. Their elected and appointed officials took the step to deeply investigate heinous crimes. I hope other states take a good look at what has been done in PA and follow the same investigative path.

Greg

[fignon's barber]

No one expected that.


Monty Python?

[johnmdesigner]

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

I stand corrected. Thank you!

[paredown]

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

Yeah, it's the old joke:
Q. What do the Unitarians believe in?
A. Everything

One of the other flash points of the Reformation was the claim that celibacy was compulsory for the priesthood, which is still Catholic dogma today (regardless of how many stray from the path.)

Hence Luther's famous "Better to marry than to burn." [in Hell I presume.]

[redir]

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.
That includes the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther condemned Pope Leo's practice of selling forgiveness for your sins (indulgences) for a monetary payment used to build St. Peter's.
Seems like a reasonable grievance.

That's not true of Catholicism. And I know this from 12 years of Catholic education. Believe me they have an 'excuse' for jsut about everything. The excuse for non-Catholics which would include any of the other major/minor religions and believe it or not even atheists is that if it is of no fault of their own that they have not found that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the father except through him, in other words if they were born in a Muslim or Jewish household and followed the teachings of their own religion it would be a mistake so to speak or of no fault of their own, then God through this mysterious excuse known as grace, might grant them admission to the amusement park in the sky.

Even if it is through a fault of their own, like for example a baptized Catholic who converts to Islam, a Catholic is always taught to never judge and that God is the only one who truly can. And even in such case might 'grace' this person.

[shinomaster]

When Martin Luther went to Rome in the 1500's he was appalled by what he saw. The priests were debaucherous and had little boys jumping out of cakes. They didn't believe what they were preaching and did it to amass wealth. The church has always been corrupt. You could be a Lutheran?

[johnmdesigner]

That's not true of Catholicism. And I know this from 12 years of Catholic education. Believe me they have an 'excuse' for jsut about everything. The excuse for non-Catholics which would include any of the other major/minor religions and believe it or not even atheists is that if it is of no fault of their own that they have not found that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the father except through him, in other words if they were born in a Muslim or Jewish household and followed the teachings of their own religion it would be a mistake so to speak or of no fault of their own, then God through this mysterious excuse known as grace, might grant them admission to the amusement park in the sky.

Even if it is through a fault of their own, like for example a baptized Catholic who converts to Islam, a Catholic is always taught to never judge and that God is the only one who truly can. And even in such case might 'grace' this person.

I didn't really get that out of my 12 years but OK.
When I was growing up only a Catholic baptized into the Church could enter into the "amusement park".
That to refer to someone being brought up in another religion as a mistake and no fault of their own kinda says it all.
But then again I didn't pay that much attention during my 12 years.

[fignon's barber]

I have a very black and white opinion on this topic. I went to an all boys Catholic high school in Philly. The "Father" that is the subject of the below link was our English teacher my senior year ( he had just come to the school as a lay teacher). I remember him as a creepy man who seemed to prey on the less popular or "less tough" kids. The school was a sports factory and those of us who were popular athletes , thankfully, seemed to be off his radar. When I read this article a couple years ago, and thought about the horrors that others around him knew, it sickened me. It has nothing to do with religion.


https://www.phillymag.com/articles/2009/10/28/sins-of-the-father/

[AngryScientist]

brings up another important point that any parents should take very seriously instilling in their young kids a sense of right and wrong and open honesty.

it is beyond me how these people would scare young children into not telling parents etc about the atrocities they had to suffer. it's very scarey to me how widespread this was.

if something seems even remotely wrong kids should not be afraid to speak up.

questioning attitude. so important.

[johnmdesigner]

I didn't really get that out of my 12 years but OK.
When I was growing up only a Catholic baptized into the Church could enter into the "amusement park".
That to refer to someone being brought up in another religion as a mistake and no fault of their own kinda says it all.
But then again I didn't pay that much attention during my 12 years.

My apologies for straying beyond the original topic. This will be my last.
My father converted to Catholicism from the Methodist religion so that he could marry my Mother (he must have really loved her). His family never spoke to him again.
Despite fulfilling his obligations and being baptized into the Church he was denied entry to the male dominated religious institutions (Knights of Columbus, etc.) of the time (this was the late 50's). Even being sponsored by his brother-in-law (my Mother's family were "super Catholics") didn't help. He always felt an outsider in the Church that he willingly converted to.
It's funny but my Mother and her sister both married men outside the Church. My Uncle was a total Atheist. He stayed home on Sundays.

[shinomaster]

It has nothing to do with religion.



But this particular religion has repeatedly covered up problems, and moved priests around, and reassigned them when problems arise, over and over again. It makes no sense, and it has nothing to do with the bible obviously, but it seems to have everything to do with the Catholic Church.

[tctyres]

I have a very black and white opinion on this topic. I went to an all boys Catholic high school in Philly. The "Father" that is the subject of the below link was our English teacher my senior year ( he had just come to the school as a lay teacher). ...
https://www.phillymag.com/articles/2009/10/28/sins-of-the-father/

That's a painful read.

I've known good priests and priests that I wouldn't associate with. It's sad what happened to so many people. I can only think of one creepster priest when I was a kid in PA, and he probably was doing something, but I hope I never have my suspicion validated.

There are a lot of good opinions in this thread. I think with an organization as large as the Catholic Church, there is a lot of room for both bad and good. There are a lot of different and valid experiences.

[fignon's barber]

But this particular religion has repeatedly covered up problems, and moved priests around, and reassigned them when problems arise, over and over again. It makes no sense, and it has nothing to do with the bible obviously, but it seems to have everything to do with the Catholic Church.


A church is not a religion. It's a business or an organization. A religion is a relationship between the person and whatever/whoever they believe to be their god.

[johnniecakes]

I have lived my entire life in PA. I find any form of child abuse / neglect deplorable. That said I find interesting/ironic how many people here in PA still worship Joe Paterno and Penn State.

[shinomaster]

A church is not a religion. It's a business or an organization. A religion is a relationship between the person and whatever/whoever they believe to be their god.

Correct, I misspoke, sorry.

[fignon's barber]

I have lived my entire life in PA. I find any form of child abuse / neglect deplorable. That said I find interesting/ironic how many people here in PA still worship Joe Paterno and Penn State.

Both have a common theme: the burden of knowledge.

[fignon's barber]

Correct, I misspoke, sorry.

No worries. We're all friends here. I think.

[tctyres]

I have lived my entire life in PA. I find any form of child abuse / neglect deplorable. That said I find interesting/ironic how many people here in PA still worship Joe Paterno and Penn State.

Tell me about it.....
I used to eat in the same dining commons as the team and Paterno for breakfast.

I remember one time Paterno got wind of a player taking $ or sneakers or something from a recruiter. Paterno's message to the media was that they had had an "emotional" discussion. Translation: Paterno bawled that player out.

That was a corrupt time, and the whole Sandusky thing was bound to show up.

[m4rk540]

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.
That includes the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther condemned Pope Leo's practice of selling forgiveness for your sins (indulgences) for a monetary payment used to build St. Peter's.
Seems like a reasonable grievance.

johnmtheologian...lol

[Gothard]

Let's take God out of this:

If it was your son being raped and proactively denied any form of justice, how would you feel?

There's your answer.

[beeatnik]

I agree Chris, and that's the main reason i didnt close the thread. We should be able to separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a religious one. the way i see it, it is not much different than if ABC or NBC was protecting a news anchor who is a known sexual predator instead of allowing them to be prosecuted under the law.

So how do you "separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a [political] one" when it comes to Trump and his "abuses" as President.

No Trump threads, No Catholic Church threads. No Ambiguity.

It should be that easy.

[echappist]

Tell me about it.....
I used to eat in the same dining commons as the team and Paterno for breakfast.

I remember one time Paterno got wind of a player taking $ or sneakers or something from a recruiter. Paterno's message to the media was that they had had an "emotional" discussion. Translation: Paterno bawled that player out.

That was a corrupt time, and the whole Sandusky thing was bound to show up.

Semi serious question; how does one deal with Penn St fans with their heads in the sand? My high school was right outside of Philly, though i havent lived there for a long time. Moving back to Philly for the at least the next year

[makoti]

"Hardly any 'fact'....."
There has been an increase in suicide numbers over the last 15 yrs. If that´s not a spiritual black hole then nothing else is..


I'd say that speaks to the more recent easy access to very efficient ways to kill yourself than a decrease in spirituality.

[tctyres]

Semi serious question; how does one deal with Penn St fans with their heads in the sand? My high school was right outside of Philly, though i havent lived there for a long time. Moving back to Philly for the at least the next year

Talk about something else, seriously. It's like anything else in life. There are good parts of most people --- try to bring those out.

That, and just get on your bike on Saturdays when people are in front of the TV :D

[Chris]

So how do you "separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a [political] one" when it comes to Trump and his "abuses" as President.

No Trump threads, No Catholic Church threads. No Ambiguity.

It should be that easy.

I disagree. I’m NO fan of Trump at all and I can talk with you forever about that, but so much of that depends on what side of the fence you land. This is about the long and pervasive history of child abuse within an institution that not only did nothing about it, but covered it up. It’s a much easier yardstick measurement for right and wrong. And most here have stayed away from the God discussion that polarized these things.

[Climb01742]

It's fair, and necessary I think, to say that among the rank and file of the Catholic Church there are many good people.

However, I think it's equally fair to say that the men who run the church are corrupt and possibly beyond redemption. They've had decades to stop the abuse and haven't. Indeed, they've protected the abusers.

It appears they have no motivation to solve the problem. Let's give them one. In many ways, the men who run the church are running an ongoing criminal enterprise. Why should the American government give tax-exempt status to a criminal enterprise? Revoke their tax-exempt status. Establish a set of benchmarks for cleaning up the church. If those are met, maybe...maybe...re-establish their tax status.

One reason the church has failed to act is, in many ways, the powers that be are beyond the law. But maybe not beyond the IRS. Let's give them a reason they can't ignore to be better. Because clearly they've ignored every biblical and holy reason to protect children.

[el cheapo]

Long, long time ago I had an anthropology professor tell the class that religion was created to keep the masses under control. Looks like he was right considering what happened to those kids. How can anyone associated with those who make the rules be wrong...?

[echappist]

Talk about something else, seriously. It's like anything else in life. There are good parts of most people --- try to bring those out.

That, and just get on your bike on Saturdays when people are in front of the TV :D

:)

and fewer cars out there on the road when they are playing, too

[beeatnik]

I disagree. I’m NO fan of Trump at all and I can talk with you forever about that, but so much of that depends on what side of the fence you land. This is about the long and pervasive history of child abuse within an institution that not only did nothing about it, but covered it up. It’s a much easier yardstick measurement for right and wrong. And most here have stayed away from the God discussion that polarized these things.

Most here do not understand 2000 years of Roman Catholic theology. And you can't reconcile the crimes without referencing the communion of saints. If you reference the communion of saints the discussion becomes one of faith, ie, religion.

[johnmdesigner]

johnmtheologian...lol

You should try Wikipedia.
It's fast.
It's fun.
It's free.

[gasman]

It's fair, and necessary I think, to say that among the rank and file of the Catholic Church there are many good people.

However, I think it's equally fair to say that the men who run the church are corrupt and possibly beyond redemption. They've had decades to stop the abuse and haven't. Indeed, they've protected the abusers.

It appears they have no motivation to solve the problem. Let's give them one. In many ways, the men who run the church are running an ongoing criminal enterprise. Why should the American government give tax-exempt status to a criminal enterprise? Revoke their tax-exempt status. Establish a set of benchmarks for cleaning up the church. If those are met, maybe...maybe...re-establish their tax status.

One reason the church has failed to act is, in many ways, the powers that be are beyond the law. But maybe not beyond the IRS. Let's give them a reason they can't ignore to be better. Because clearly they've ignored every biblical and holy reason to protect children.

It would be potentially a good thing if the IRS had the power to take away their tax exempt status but it won’t ever happen. The church has too many friends in Congress. Heck, Scientology has a religious tax-exempt status and it’s more correctly called a cult.

Tha Catholic Church needs to address this in a much more robust manner. I know several Catholics that are very unhappy with the church’s handling of this whole sordid mess.

[beeatnik]

It would be potentially a good thing if the IRS had the power to take away their tax exempt status but it won’t ever happen. The church has too many friends in Congress.
.

Paceline, come for the bikes, stay for the Catholic and Turban Bashing.

[saab2000]

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.
That includes the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther condemned Pope Leo's practice of selling forgiveness for your sins (indulgences) for a monetary payment used to build St. Peter's.
Seems like a reasonable grievance.

I was raised in the Lutheran church. That was probably his most well-known grievance but there were many others.

Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk and wanted to reform, not leave, the Roman Catholic Church. Ultimately he was excommunicated.

As an aside, I have stood in the room where he did much of his work translating the Bible from Latin into German, so more common Germans could read it.

[Chris]

Paceline, come for the bikes, stay for the Catholic and Turban Bashing.

Give it a rest. No one has disparaged Catholics or members of any faith. The Catholic Church as an institution is responsible for not holding its representatives responsible for their actions. This has NOTHING to do with anyone's faith or headwear.

[jruhlen1980]

Hey so what does everyone think about disc brakes in the peloton?

[saab2000]

Hey so what does everyone think about disc brakes in the peloton?

We don’t matter. What would (choose your deity here) ride?

[beeatnik]

Give it a rest. No one has disparaged Catholics or members of any faith. The Catholic Church as an institution is responsible for not holding its representatives responsible for their actions. This has NOTHING to do with anyone's faith or headwear.

You're obviously not a Catholic. "Disparaging" the Church is disparaging Catholics.

The communion of saints (Latin, communio sanctorum), when referred to persons, is the spiritual union of the members of the Christian Church, living and the dead, those on earth, in heaven, and, for those who believe in purgatory, those also who are in that state of purification.[1] They are all part of a single "mystical body", with Christ as the head, in which each member contributes to the good of all and shares in the welfare of all.

Anyway, I'm an atheist these days.

[GOTHBROOKS]

albie wanna go see rob zombie and marilyn manson with me in irvine at the end of the month?

[beeatnik]

Serio?

Hell, ya (pun intended).

[bicycletricycle]

I think the church thinks it is going to wriggle out of this with time but I think they are going to need to deal with it in the most visible and aggressive way possible.

[shinomaster]

No worries. We're all friends here. I think.

One would hope!

[Bob Ross]

A church is not a religion. It's a business or an organization. A religion is a relationship between the person and whatever/whoever they believe to be their god.

We're arguing semantics now, but to my understanding that "relationship" you describe is spirituality, not religion.

Religion refers to the collective dogma of a church (slash business slash organization)...with emphasis on the collective aspect: There are no one-man religions, that's just an individual's relationship with the divine [sic]. In order to have an actual religion you need multiple practitioners who can more-or-less agree on what constitutes their tenets of faith. Their consensus becomes dogma.

[peanutgallery]

I live in PA and there have been rumors of details of the grand jury investigation for quite some time. I can honestly say that at no point has anything that has been uncovered is all that surprising...as disgusting as it is. Every investigation has turned up the same dirt in every diocese in the US where it has taken place. Truly sad

The big thing with this particular investigation is that there was a serious attempt to bury it, until a few weeks back it was shelved by our state supreme court. I commend the AG of PA for not letting it die like that and getting it in the light of day. If you're paying attention you will notice some redactions and some pushback from within the church. That will make for some interesting wrangling here on out. Probably see some changes to the statute of limitations around here

FWIW, while growing up my old man always told me to watch my 6 around the priests, highly developed predators. And we were big time Catholics

[mbrtool]

Beeatnik,
"You're obviously not a Catholic. "Disparaging" the Church is disparaging Catholics."... I believe...no not true..one's faith and trying to understand who Jesus was and said and what he wants and expects from us does not necessarily have anything to do what the church is today. Your Catholic faith may differ from mine which is fine...I hope I haven't crossed any red lines.

Ray

[beeatnik]

Beeatnik,
"You're obviously not a Catholic. "Disparaging" the Church is disparaging Catholics."... I believe...no not true..one's faith and trying to understand who Jesus was and said and what he wants and expects from us does not necessarily have anything to do what the church is today. Your Catholic faith may differ from mine which is fine...I hope I haven't crossed any red lines.

Ray

Ray, it's a strict interpretation based on 8 years of theology classes taught by priests with PhDs.

The crimes are heinous; there's no debate there. The lines get blurred when people who don't understand the Church or its theology begin to make misinformed or unsophisticated statements. Bottom line, when you grow up Catholic you develop a powerful hypocrisy meter. It's just curious to me that there's so much sensitivity over gun control, gender equality and partisan politics around this place but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort.

[glepore]

Re: Penn State. Same thing. But it wasn't just Joe Pa...it was an entire institution. This will turn your stomach as much as the clergy report, maybe more...https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/a-death-at-penn-state/540657/. A culture of an institution protecting its "valued traditions" above basic decency.

Institutions tend to self preservation at all costs. Corporations at least can claim to serve their shareholders. Public service institutions that only think with self interest need abolition, or severe reform.

[Climb01742]

when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution"

I don't believe anyone has 'indiscriminately' criticized. To the contrary. The comments have been measured, thoughtful and often based in personal experience. You have every right to disagree with opinions expressed, but mischaracterizing them as 'indiscriminate' because you disagree isn't fair.

[colker]

Ray, it's a strict interpretation based on 8 years of theology classes taught by priests with PhDs.

The crimes are heinous; there's no debate there. The lines get blurred when people who don't understand the Church or its theology begin to make misinformed or unsophisticated statements. Bottom line, when you grow up Catholic you develop a powerful hypocrisy meter. It's just curious to me that there's so much sensitivity over gun control, gender equality and partisan politics around this place but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort.

This^!

(i am jewish btw)

[mbrtool]

Beeat,

Thanks for your response....I understand your position.

Ray

[sjbraun]

"but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort."

Any criticism of the church in this case is far from indiscriminate. For Pete's sake, the criticism is leveled at those who hid/covered-up and therefore tacitly condoned the abuse of children that occurred for decades. The criticism is very specific and directed at very concrete actions; nothing indiscriminate or in anyway Catholic bashing about that.

My Mom is Catholic, I don't judge her for the sins committed by the church's leadership. But I sure as heck feel okay about judging those who committed or covered up these crimes.

[djg]

I don't believe anyone has 'indiscriminately' criticized. To the contrary. The comments have been measured, thoughtful and often based in personal experience. You have every right to disagree with opinions expressed, but mischaracterizing them as 'indiscriminate' because you disagree isn't fair.

Really? I disagree -- I'm not a moderator and it's not my call, but I just don't get how you see it that way.

[Climb01742]

Really? I disagree -- I'm not a moderator and it's not my call, but I just don't get how you see it that way.

You’re right, it’s not your call. You see it your way. I see it mine. All cool. What makes it a forum. Discussing our views respectfully. Agreeing is optional.

[peanutgallery]

Because I like to be one, too. But when it comes to kids...

The PhD means something when arguing about how many angels can sit on the pointy end of the needle, but little in the vein of this conversation. And that might be the real issue here, policy wonks in positions of leadership when a true administrator/leader was probably needed.

Folks are bagging on the Church and its leadership in the US, not on the concept of Catholicism or the people like my Grandmother who go to church regularly. There's quite a red thread that winds its way thru the US church hierarchy over many decades. It says something when an organization has its own mental health facilities for priests that can't keep their hands to themselves. And then there's the cover-ups....

Ray, it's a strict interpretation based on 8 years of theology classes taught by priests with PhDs.

The crimes are heinous; there's no debate there. The lines get blurred when people who don't understand the Church or its theology begin to make misinformed or unsophisticated statements. Bottom line, when you grow up Catholic you develop a powerful hypocrisy meter. It's just curious to me that there's so much sensitivity over gun control, gender equality and partisan politics around this place but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort.

[echappist]

Because I like to be one, too. But when it comes to kids...

The PhD means something when arguing about how many angels can sit on the pointy end of the needle, but little in the vein of this conversation. And that might be the real issue here, policy wonks in positions of leadership when a true administrator/leader was probably needed.

Folks are bagging on the Church and its leadership in the US, not on the concept of Catholicism or the people like my Grandmother who go to church regularly. There's quite a red thread that winds its way thru the US church hierarchy over many decades. It says something when an organization has its own mental health facilities for priests that can't keep their hands to themselves. And then there's the cover-ups....

and not just limited to the U.S., unfortunately. One should always avoid generalizations, but in this case, it's a pattern, and the cover-up reaches the upper echelons of the Church

[cash05458]

Ray, it's a strict interpretation based on 8 years of theology classes taught by priests with PhDs.

The crimes are heinous; there's no debate there. The lines get blurred when people who don't understand the Church or its theology begin to make misinformed or unsophisticated statements. Bottom line, when you grow up Catholic you develop a powerful hypocrisy meter. It's just curious to me that there's so much sensitivity over gun control, gender equality and partisan politics around this place but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort.

I would hope the discomfort about folks discussing this would come from the issue itself and all contained therein rather than the feeling that we are criticizing those who follow the catholic faith as it has nothing to do with that...I too have studied many long years with catholic priests with Phds...I have no idea why that would have to do with anything at all to be honest...none of this comes down to mere theological arguments after all...rather, it has to do with real life things and people being abused and a powerful institution doing all it can to not only enable that, but to ensure that goes on and on while doing all it can to hide those who did the abuse...to somehow conflate this as being "anti-catholic" in terms of what you or anyone else believes in faith is either flat out ingenious or simply ridiculous...

[ColonelJLloyd]

It's just curious to me that there's so much sensitivity over gun control, gender equality and partisan politics around this place but when people begin to indiscriminately criticize an "institution" with 70 million US members, there's hardly any discomfort.

Fair point.

I don't believe someone needs to have a specific, long term or particularly refined understanding of the Catholic Church to justifiably criticize it as an institution as it pertains to this [child abuse] issue.

But, neither am I going to argue with your broader point.

[FlashUNC]

A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

And the Church has many bad apples if the last 20 years of investigations have shown anything.

And leadership at all levels has been complicit. Tear it all down as far as I'm concerned.

[beeatnik]

Fair point.

I don't believe someone needs to have a specific, long term or particularly refined understanding of the Catholic Church to justifiably criticize it as an institution as it pertains to this [child abuse] issue.

But, neither am I going to argue with your broader point.

These discussions are tolerable and necessary until someone traces a modern pathology to the medieval church.

Martin Luther pretty much said all this in 1517.
Hopefully this will be the tipping point of an institution that has been in decline in the West for decades.
Pretty much the reason the hierarchy concentrated their efforts on the export of doctrine to third world countries. Just like Phillip Morris.
The OP's comments are spot on.

The Inquisition and the Crusades were supposed to fix all these problems.

And that's the best evidence of ignorance of not only the theology but the Institution.

[gasman]

Let’s stay on topic and not point fingers at one another.


Thanks

[Never]

I don't believe anyone has 'indiscriminately' criticized. To the contrary. The comments have been measured, thoughtful and often based in personal experience. You have every right to disagree with opinions expressed, but mischaracterizing them as 'indiscriminate' because you disagree isn't fair.

Reading through this thread it seems that there are in fact more than a few indiscriminate comments, actually, which are not at all "measured, thoughtful...", whether one disagrees with the sentiments the writers are trying to express or not.

From page 1 alone:
"The Catholic Church has fermented [I think the poster may have intended to write "fomented", but anyway] this all along..."
"...bring down this horrendous institution..."
"...this institution has (and continues to) raped..."
"...rapist pigs..."
"...organized pedo ring..."
"...the Vatican rape factory..."

To characterize or define any institution (or race, creed, gender, nationality...) using such terms is a definition of "indiscriminate".

Of course there is no questioning the justified outrage regarding the specific cases the op has cited, as well as regarding violence against others in all institutions, and it is horrific that the repetition of these events, in many forms, continues unchecked, but there certainly are at least some superficial, perhaps uninformed, perhaps not, very broad-brush reactions being posted here (as is always the case in threads like this one, or "political" ones, or "terrorist" ones).

[colker]

Reading through this thread it seems that there are in fact more than a few indiscriminate comments, actually, which are not at all "measured, thoughtful...", whether one disagrees with the sentiments the writers are trying to express or not.

From page 1 alone:
"The Catholic Church has fermented [I think the poster may have intended to write "fomented", but anyway] this all along..."
"...bring down this horrendous institution..."
"...this institution has (and continues to) raped..."
"...rapist pigs..."
"...organized pedo ring..."
"...the Vatican rape factory..."

To characterize or define any institution (or race, creed, gender, nationality...) using such terms is a definition of "indiscriminate".

Of course there is no questioning the justified outrage regarding the specific cases the op has cited, as well as regarding violence against others in all institutions, and it is horrific that the repetition of these events, in many forms, continues unchecked, but there certainly are at least some superficial, perhaps uninformed, perhaps not, very broad-brush reactions being posted here (as is always the case in threads like this one, or "political" ones, or "terrorist" ones).

^^^^^this.

[gasman]

This is a link to a Yahoo article

https://www.yahoo.com/news/chilling-stories-abuse-covered-catholic-012027033.html

[joosttx]

Here is the link to the grand jury report.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/catholic-church-clergy-sex-abuse-read-the-full-grand-jury-report-20180814.html

[gasman]

Here is the link to the grand jury report.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/catholic-church-clergy-sex-abuse-read-the-full-grand-jury-report-20180814.html

Thanks !

It’s terrible just to read the yahoo article.

[beeatnik]

This monster was my 9th grade English teacher.

https://abc7news.com/archive/8726372/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2005/01/29/the-case-of-father-jerry/

[FlashUNC]

Reading through this thread it seems that there are in fact more than a few indiscriminate comments, actually, which are not at all "measured, thoughtful...", whether one disagrees with the sentiments the writers are trying to express or not.

From page 1 alone:
"The Catholic Church has fermented [I think the poster may have intended to write "fomented", but anyway] this all along..."
"...bring down this horrendous institution..."
"...this institution has (and continues to) raped..."
"...rapist pigs..."
"...organized pedo ring..."
"...the Vatican rape factory..."

To characterize or define any institution (or race, creed, gender, nationality...) using such terms is a definition of "indiscriminate".

Of course there is no questioning the justified outrage regarding the specific cases the op has cited, as well as regarding violence against others in all institutions, and it is horrific that the repetition of these events, in many forms, continues unchecked, but there certainly are at least some superficial, perhaps uninformed, perhaps not, very broad-brush reactions being posted here (as is always the case in threads like this one, or "political" ones, or "terrorist" ones).

The Church is currently dealing with fallout from child abuse scandals in a Baker's Dozen worth of countries. The outrage I see in those comments, while hyperbolic, seems justified given an organization that pushed this under the rug across the globe for decades.

So if the reaction is not thoughtful and measured given the horrific nature of what's taken place -- again, all over the world -- what is the threshold for that kind of reaction to be okay? 15 countries with abuse scandals? 20? The entire industrialized world?

The John Jay Report -- from 2004 mind you -- found nearly 7,000 examples of abuse in the US alone. And this was about 15 years ago, and the Church's own commissioned report.

So again, if the current situation does not warrant the kind of reaction seen in this thread, what does?

[gasman]

This monster was my 9th grade English teacher.

https://abc7news.com/archive/8726372/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2005/01/29/the-case-of-father-jerry/

Oh my gosh. I can’t wrap my mind around what just this one man did, let alone all the others.

[rwsaunders]

I coached youth soccer for more seasons that I can count and I was required to go through the Act 34 clearance process and classroom training each season.

As a part of the class, we watched a film called Protecting Our Children, which included a series of interviews with convicted child molesters, abusers and predators. Priests, rabbis, ministers, teachers, doctors, scout leaders, coaches, day care providers...all part of the film. Same MO and same results until they were finally caught. Build the trust of the victim, build the trust of the parents and patiently plan their moments.

As the victims were kids, the predators counted on the parents not believing that a trusted member of the commniuty could do such a thing, much like the Michigan State doctor and the 265 gymnasts. In the case of organized religion, there isn't supposed to be a more trusted institution.

[Bruce K]

One difference, beatnick, is that in those topics you listed, people can’t refrain from personal attacks and name calling.

So far, the interactions in this discussion have avoided that.

BK

[rustychisel]

A great conversation to be having; necessary and vital.

Notwithstanding all that has been written in the past 9 pages, a view, since this 'leprosy' (the current Pope's words) is a worldwide occurence.

In 2014 the Pope told an Italian journalist in a formal sit down interview that "one in fifty Catholic priests is a paedophile, according to my advisors", and that the news did not make him pleased.

1 in 50

That is 2% of the Catholic Church's workforce. Now think of any other corporation where we would accept that 2% of their staff were practising paedophiles.

IBM?
Volkswagon?
Apple?
Facebook?

It remains my view, accordingly, that the Catholic Church be told to pack it's bags and leave, that it may no longer do business in territories where its abuses against the people are so flagrant. This includes Australia, Chile, and yes, the great state Pennsylvania, not to mention Boston and countless others. Their properties should be seized as lien against the payment of reparations to their victims. Then, at least, we might know they were doing some good.


Sorry, I forgot the reference. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-one-in-50-catholic-priests-bishops-and-cardinals-are-paedophiles-9602919.html
I'm surprised and impressed this has stayed civil for so long.

[peanutgallery]

Pennsylvania is a Commonwealth, not a state. Pretty proud of it, too:)

A great conversation to be having; necessary and vital.

Notwithstanding all that has been written in the past 9 pages, a view, since this 'leprosy' (the current Pope's words) is a worldwide occurence.

In 2014 the Pope told an Italian journalist in a formal sit down interview that "one in fifty Catholic priests is a paedophile, according to my advisors", and that the news did not make him pleased.

1 in 50

That is 2% of the Catholic Church's workforce. Now think of any other corporation where we would accept that 2% of their staff were practising paedophiles.

IBM?
Volkswagon?
Apple?
Facebook?

It remains my view, accordingly, that the Catholic Church be told to pack it's bags and leave, that it may no longer do business in territories where its abuses against the people are so flagrant. This includes Australia, Chile, and yes, the great state Pennsylvania, not to mention Boston and countless others. Their properties should be seized as lien against the payment of reparations to their victims. Then, at least, we might know they were doing some good.


Sorry, I forgot the reference. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-one-in-50-catholic-priests-bishops-and-cardinals-are-paedophiles-9602919.html
I'm surprised and impressed this has stayed civil for so long.

[Cicli]

I absolutely despise organized religion.
If this happened to one of my childern, to prison I would be going. These peoples actions destroy lives, childerns lives and thats not acceptable. I would square the deal.
Anyone that blindly drops money in a collection plate enables these actions and needs to think about where there money may be going. This needs to stop. Everyone involved needs to go to prison for a long time. Label them as a pedophile and let them sit in prison.

I believe I need a bike ride and a beer.

[Climb01742]

Reading through this thread it seems that there are in fact more than a few indiscriminate comments, actually, which are not at all "measured, thoughtful...", whether one disagrees with the sentiments the writers are trying to express or not.

From page 1 alone:
"The Catholic Church has fermented [I think the poster may have intended to write "fomented", but anyway] this all along..."
"...bring down this horrendous institution..."
"...this institution has (and continues to) raped..."
"...rapist pigs..."
"...organized pedo ring..."
"...the Vatican rape factory..."

To characterize or define any institution (or race, creed, gender, nationality...) using such terms is a definition of "indiscriminate".

Of course there is no questioning the justified outrage regarding the specific cases the op has cited, as well as regarding violence against others in all institutions, and it is horrific that the repetition of these events, in many forms, continues unchecked, but there certainly are at least some superficial, perhaps uninformed, perhaps not, very broad-brush reactions being posted here (as is always the case in threads like this one, or "political" ones, or "terrorist" ones).

I understand your point. And I don’t want to say you’re wrong. But I’m not sure you’re completely right. This subject becomes passionate quickly. And words reflect those passions.

I’d draw your attention to your last two quoted comments. According to the report, some of the priests involved gave boys they had molested gifts of crosses to wear, so that other priests could identify boys who they could then molest, too. That, to me, defines an organized ring. So not an indiscriminate statement.

The last quoted comment comes close, I’ll admit. And maybe it is too florid. But when the Vatican gave Bernard Law a job and an apartment, one could argue they also gave him an endorsement, at the highest levels. So perhaps ‘rape factory’ is too hyperbolic and incendiary. But isn’t there a grain of truth in it somewhere? I’m not arguing for taking language too far, but condemning language can also obscure the underlying truth.

[Chris]

Reading through this thread it seems that there are in fact more than a few indiscriminate comments, actually, which are not at all "measured, thoughtful...", whether one disagrees with the sentiments the writers are trying to express or not.

From page 1 alone:
"The Catholic Church has fermented [I think the poster may have intended to write "fomented", but anyway] this all along..."
"...bring down this horrendous institution..."
"...this institution has (and continues to) raped..."
"...rapist pigs..."
"...organized pedo ring..."
"...the Vatican rape factory..."

To characterize or define any institution (or race, creed, gender, nationality...) using such terms is a definition of "indiscriminate".

Of course there is no questioning the justified outrage regarding the specific cases the op has cited, as well as regarding violence against others in all institutions, and it is horrific that the repetition of these events, in many forms, continues unchecked, but there certainly are at least some superficial, perhaps uninformed, perhaps not, very broad-brush reactions being posted here (as is always the case in threads like this one, or "political" ones, or "terrorist" ones).

I did mean ferment. It probably isn't the best use of the word. I do not believe that at the heart of the Church that their goal is to encourage or foment this behavior, but I do believe the administrative wing of the Church has, from the beginning of their awareness of this situation, allowed this problem to stew or ferment rather than address it and do everything they could to eliminate the problem. They have moved priests from diocese to diocese, they have ignored complaints, they have moved money out of diocese so that victims could not receive compensation and on and on. These aren't isolated incidents. This is spread throughout the world and is, in my estimation, part of the nature of being a priest. In my estimation, many are drawn to the priesthood because they know of their pedophilia and they are hoping the priesthood will bring about a change in them. They get there and it doesn't, but does put them a position where they are confronted with their pedophilia on a daily basis. Others probably have more nefarious reasons for joining, but I like to hope that most are trying to do a good thing but then their problems and their career choice collide and we have this kind of world wide atrocity.

I too coached soccer for years and the level of scrutiny I was required to go through was high and I am thankful for it.

[oldpotatoe]

Rest assured, none of these will go unpunished.

And they know it.

The very thing or person these people put their faith in or take comfort from is also the very thing or person that will met out the stiffest sentence and the most appropriate punishment. It's a paradox but it's true. Mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin. It's a sad day. It's a glorious day.

Nope, when you are dead, you are dead..stuff of faith, not facts. I don't believe in 'fire insurance'..

BUT I want to be reincarnated as one of my cats..they live such a life..:)

[oldpotatoe]

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

Yup, I worked on a lady's bike from a local one..she gave me a tour when I dropped off her bike..

'Many paths, same destination'...

I think what makes this so heinous is the victims are children, some very young..Like another poster said, if this happened to one of my children or now, my grand children, I would make sure that person, 'met his maker', altho I don't believe in that part of the ___ tale.

[makoti]

R
The very thing or person these people put their faith in or take comfort from is also the very thing or person that will met out the stiffest sentence and the most appropriate punishment. It's a paradox but it's true.

The paradox is He (or She) is also the one who allows this to happen. Given that, I'd not be putting too much into the idea of eternal justice. Better take care if it in the here & now.

[Bob Ross]

I absolutely despise organized religion.

We can hang.



If this happened to one of my childern, to prison I would be going. These peoples actions destroy lives, childerns lives and thats not acceptable. I would square the deal.
Anyone that blindly drops money in a collection plate enables these actions and needs to think about where there money may be going. This needs to stop. Everyone involved needs to go to prison for a long time. Label them as a pedophile and let them sit in prison.

I believe I need a bike ride and a beer.

Whoa, yeah, we can definitely hang!
:beer:

[colker]

In the case of organized religion, there isn't supposed to be a more trusted institution.

Actually there are. State. Army. Justice. Doctors.
Religion was once powerfull. Now it is weak and can be spit on by everybody without consequence.
Don´t kick the weak. Let´s go for the big bullies.

Where is the thread about illegal catholic kids kept in barracks separated from their mothers?

[Chris]

Where is the thread about illegal catholic kids kept in barracks separated from their mothers?

When it's gone on for a couple thousand years and people aren't stopping it, then maybe we can get to it. That seems to have already been corrected by a populace who believed it was wrong and stood up. The way things are supposed to work.

[AngryScientist]

Don´t kick the weak. Let´s go for the big bullies.



can you spell out, in simple terms exactly what you meant by this comment colker? I do not want to make assumptions about your intent here.

[colker]

When it's gone on for a couple thousand years and people aren't stopping it, then maybe we can get to it. That seems to have already been corrected by a populace who believed it was wrong and stood up. The way things are supposed to work.

Good.;)

.. there is always more than one side to every institution. The sex abuse of teenagers is an abomination... but there is more to religion than this.
IN Central America, in countries where families are desperate w/ no future, the church resists along their side.
There is the Theology of Freedom which is very political and opposes exploitation..

[colker]

can you spell out, in simple terms exactly what you meant by this comment colker? I do not want to make assumptions about your intent here.

I mean what i wrote: the church is not the State anymore. The secular power is the big bully.
Awhile a go kids from illegal families were kept in concentration camps. Ironically they were catholics.
Families were separated. It was cruel and barbaric.
The church was a big bully in the past. Now it´s not.
The church in Central America stands beside those poor people. They do it based on their principles.

[oldpotatoe]

Actually there are. State. Army. Justice. Doctors.
Religion was once powerfull. Now it is weak and can be spit on by everybody without consequence.
Don´t kick the weak. Let´s go for the big bullies.

Where is the thread about illegal catholic kids kept in barracks separated from their mothers?

Ideally but you are in the US, right?

It's not 'religion', but the institution and those powerful leaders that have bastardized it, then covered it up..against children. Again, you can be 'religious' without the 'building'..particularly into today's 'info everywhere' society.

They were put in cages, separated because of their immigration status, not because they may have been 'catholic'.

Who are the 'big bullies'?? Besides, organized religion is anything but 'weak'..particularly the Roman Catholic Church..

I see above, 'secular power' is the big bully..so you think all that's being revealed, disgusting actions by 'some' against children in the mainly catholic church is mean, unfair, unjustified? Bullying by the 'secular power'?

[AngryScientist]

The church was a big bully in the past. Now it´s not.

i still do not think i am clear on what you're saying. sure, there are bigger bullies and larger scale injustices in the world, but orders of magnitude aside, and in the context of this thread, what difference does it make? should we not seek justice for the heinous crimes that were committed just because there are bigger fish to fry?

[colker]

Ideally but you are in the US, right?

It's not 'religion', but the institution and those powerful leaders that have bastardized it, then covered it up..against children. Again, you can be 'religious' without the 'building'..particularly into today's 'info everywhere' society.

They were put in cages, separated because of their immigration status, not because they may have been 'catholic'.

Who are the 'big bullies'?? Besides, organized religion is anything but 'weak'..particularly the Roman Catholic Church..

I see above, 'secular power' is the big bully..so you think all that's being revealed, disgusting actions by 'some' against children in the mainly catholic church is mean, unfair, unjustified? Bullying by the 'secular power'?

What I think? Ok... here is what i think: the priests who abused the kids commited crimes against civillians and against their own church. The Pope is asking for justice and severity. Those priests should be treated as criminals. Whomever covered up those crimes should be treated as criminals.
Having said that i will say there is a strong anti catholic feeling in many countries. Justified or not there is a political war against the Church. Those scandals are amplified so the whole church is seen as a depraved institution dedicated ot cover up the nastiness of ALL it´s priests. This is a medieval issue. There is long history to that view.
I brought the illegals to this thread because there is a simmetry, an irony that shows.. Those kids are from countries depraved by secular powers such as narc gangs, tyranical and corrupt governments. The only institution still fighting for those poor people there is the church. Priests working in terrible environments and risking their well beings to protect those families.

[colker]

i still do not think i am clear on what you're saying. sure, there are bigger bullies and larger scale injustices in the world, but orders of magnitude aside, and in the context of this thread, what difference does it make? should we not seek justice for the heinous crimes that were committed just because there are bigger fish to fry?

Seek justice. Yes. Go after the individuals who commit the crimes and the individuals who covered it up.
Categorizing the Church as a decadent, depraved institution dedicated solely to abuse and cover up is a bit different.

[cash05458]

A few years ago the state legislature of PA voted overwhelmingly to change the statute of limitations law on child abuse cases...obviously not just pertaining to Church abuses but ALL victims of childhood sexual abuse... and they voted something like 200 to 15 to change that law...that bill then had to go to the Senate...at which point the Church then hired 39 lobbyists (for 50 senators) for many many millions of dollars to fight that potential change...and they succeeded. The Catholic church paid for THAT...noone else had any interest in funding such a thing.

Now why is that?

And not only did that and currently does protect priests who have been predators, it protects predators of all faiths...even the atheist ones...so if you would like to talk about bullying and power I would suggest you might want to start there.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Where is the thread about illegal catholic kids kept in barracks separated from their mothers?

Probably not what you're referring to, but this story (https://www.google.com/search?ei=34V1W6TFKpa6jwS9xqDAAg&q=irish+unwed+mothers+catholic+church&oq=irish+unwed+mothers+catholic+church&gs_l=psy-ab.3...15413.20850.0.21551.22.21.1.0.0.0.110.1876. 18j3.21.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.18.1529...0j0i13k1j0i7i30k1j0i20i263k1j33i10 k1.0.CJXvMlXJLSI) has stuck with me. Sickening.

[redir]

Seek justice. Yes. Go after the individuals who commit the crimes and the individuals who covered it up.
Categorizing the Church as a decadent, depraved institution dedicated solely to abuse and cover up is a bit different.

If the Catholic church didn't keep doing it over and over and over again then you might have a point. But as of right now the whole of the institution is not looking good for a good reason. The culture of an institution comes from the top down.

[colker]

A few years ago the state legislature of PA voted overwhelmingly to change the statute of limitations law on child abuse cases...obviously not just pertaining to Church abuses but ALL victims of childhood sexual abuse... and they voted something like 200 to 15 to change that law...that bill then had to go to the Senate...at which point the Church then hired 39 lobbyists (for 50 senators) for many many millions of dollars to fight that potential change...and they succeeded. The Catholic church paid for THAT...noone else had any interest in funding such a thing.

Now why is that?

And not only did that and currently does protect priests who have been predators, it protects predators of all faiths...even the atheist ones...so if you would like to talk about bullying and power I would suggest you might want to start there.

Ok. Carry on w/ the torches and close your eyes to what goes on beyond your close surroundings.

[colker]

If the Catholic church didn't keep doing it over and over and over again then you might have a point. But as of right now the whole of the institution is not looking good for a good reason. The culture of an institution comes from the top down.

The church is the catholic faith. You are not seeing the big picture. As i said: carry on w/ the torches. This is not new.
Btw: catholics are persecuted, killed in Asia and the middle east.

[colker]

Probably not what you're referring to, but this story (https://www.google.com/search?ei=34V1W6TFKpa6jwS9xqDAAg&q=irish+unwed+mothers+catholic+church&oq=irish+unwed+mothers+catholic+church&gs_l=psy-ab.3...15413.20850.0.21551.22.21.1.0.0.0.110.1876. 18j3.21.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.18.1529...0j0i13k1j0i7i30k1j0i20i263k1j33i10 k1.0.CJXvMlXJLSI) has stuck with me. Sickening.

Oh man.. there are lots of sickening stories about every single faith and ideology on this planet.

I see a huge glass ceiling from where i stand. The world can be a ****ty place.

[Climb01742]

The church is the catholic faith. You are not seeing the big picture. As i said: carry on w/ the torches. This is not new.
Btw: catholics are persecuted, killed in Asia and the middle east.

You're right, there is a bigger picture. No institution, certainly not the Catholic Church, is monolithic. Not all good or bad. And yes, absolutely, there are priests and parishes doing good work all over the world.

Where I have an issue is, does the magnitude, the scope, the duration, the sheer horror, and the systemic protection and hiding of the abuse and abusers rise to a level that calls for something truly drastic to be done? Decades have passed without the men who run the church stopping it. Isn't it time for someone else to step in and do what the leaders haven't?

For me, perhaps it comes down to two questions:

Have the actions of the leaders of the church gone on so long that they've become the defacto doctrine?

And, given how horrific what's gone on is, can there really be a 'but'? As in, yes, what's happened has been terrible, but... For some, the good that's also done justifies a 'but'. However, for some, including me, what's gone on outweighs any 'but'. I can see, however, that fair people can hold both sides.

[oldpotatoe]

The church is the catholic faith. You are not seeing the big picture. As i said: carry on w/ the torches. This is not new.
Btw: catholics are persecuted, killed in Asia and the middle east.

Actually 'Christians', some of who are Catholics. And Muslims are persecuted, killed in Israel and members of other religions are persecuted, killed in other countries. The Crusades were the very definition of religious persecution. The 'Church' vs the muslim faith, trying to recover lost 'holy sites', which were considered 'holy' by both faiths.

I think this is all a window into some parts of the 'Church'..and as is seen by this thread, and as you agree..the bad guys and those who cover it up need to be punished..looks like 'some' are.

[cash05458]

Colker...thankfully your blessed virgin was never brought up by priests.

[colker]

Colker...thankfully your blessed virgin was never brought up by priests.

I am not catholic. I am jewish and this is a cycling forum called Paceline.. I navigate here to look at fast bikes on pavement.
I will leave a suggestion: a subforum for politics where we can despise and offend all religions, another for personal stories, another for slow riding, commuting etc..

[redir]

The church is the catholic faith. You are not seeing the big picture. As i said: carry on w/ the torches. This is not new.
Btw: catholics are persecuted, killed in Asia and the middle east.

I'm not carrying any torches but I am pointing out the severe problem the Catholic church's image is right now and that it because they keep doing the same thing over and over. Almost every atrocity committed in recorded world history had a glorious bigger picture behind it. Holiness and Godliness has been used as an excuse for some terrible things.

I know what you are saying though. Like I said I was born and raised Catholic and while I don't believe in any of it I respected and admired those who did and lived it faithfully. I'm also well aware of the good that Catholic charities do around the world. But they have a serious ongoing problem and really need to do something about it.

[benb]

Interesting to see this thread be so long.

I have personal baggage here too. And I do think it is kind of OK to tar and feather a large percentage of catholics for this stuff because a lot of lay Catholics are being incredibly observant of what they've been told to do their whole lives and have offered up near 100% forgiveness to the clergy and have not closed their wallets.

I was brought up Catholic, went to Catholic school, went to the Vatican when I was 18 and all that. Both my parents families 100% Catholic, never missed services unless someone was just about in the hosptial, etc.. (probably the only time I ever missed as a kid was when me and all my siblings simultaneously had chicken pox).

The parish I was confirmed at here in MA had 2 pedophile priests who were outed in the early 2000s. I never wanted to be an Altar boy but my 2 younger brothers both were. Amazingly that parish is still the biggest/highest attendance/donations parish in the archdiocese in Boston. My parents are still super close friends with the priest who was the Pastor there when I was in High School. (The scandal unfolded after I had gone away to college and then graduated.). That pastor actually married my wife and I but we pretty much stopped going to church shortly after we were married. I think said pastor knew about one of his priests and had isolated him away from any duties that involved any children. For example I was active in CYO and I never saw that priest ever involved. However there was another priest transferred in while I was in HS, he was also an abuser and I don't think the pastor knew. That priest gave my brother a hard time, but my brother pushed back at him and I don't think any sexual lines were crossed.

Later on when I was an adult I later found out the priest that was in charge of the CYO I attended was eventually punished for abusing an adult woman.

My parents continue to donate large amounts of money and go every week. Lots of people do.

AFAICT Boston was just one of the first ones of these dioceses/arch-dioceses to blow up. A healthy organization would not have transferred Cardinal Law (responsible for a lot of the Boston coverup) to Italy and would have done a top down review of the entire hierarchy 20 years ago when Boston happened and immediately turned a bunch of the abusers to the police with full cooperation to try and clean up. The organization just isn't healthy when this PA controversy is just blowing up now.

Every time they changed out the Bishop for someone new my parents (especially my mother) would immediately profess that the new guy was great and everything was solved.

BTW having lived around different areas and attended Catholic services in different places I don't think you can actually even say they're teaching the same things everywhere. For example Boston has never been a place where you were going to here the clergy ask you to "pray for our government leaders to see fit to ban abortion" and stuff like that and I have been asked to pray for that explicitly many times attending mass in other areas of the US. There seems to be leniency about some of the actual items to faith but near universal control of the coverups of problems.

Boston blowing up was mostly the end of it all for me and my siblings.. I got married in the Church largely to avoid a family blow up on my side of the family. My wife's father + stepmother were both Catholic and had stopped attending since the Boston scandal and will tell you they are outright done, but she had never been baptized because her birth mother had not been Catholic. We had our son baptized, again to keep my parents from getting too upset, but since then we have kind of "come out" that we're done and he hasn't really ever been in the Church again.

One thing I've noticed the past 20 years.. we have tons of imported African priests in the Boston area because there are way fewer men entering Seminary. The Catholic church has expanded into new areas where it has no history over time, there is a big boom in Africa.

[cash05458]

the above is a good post...thanks for that...

[Big Dan]

I am not catholic. I am jewish and this is a cycling forum called Paceline.. I navigate here to look at fast bikes on pavement.
I will leave a suggestion: a subforum for politics where we can despise and offend all religions, another for personal stories, another for slow riding, commuting etc..

Maybe you should start your own forum.

[oldpotatoe]

I am not catholic. I am jewish and this is a cycling forum called Paceline.. I navigate here to look at fast bikes on pavement.
I will leave a suggestion: a subforum for politics where we can despise and offend all religions, another for personal stories, another for slow riding, commuting etc..

Hardly any 'people' have been more persecuted than the Jewish people. I wonder if that's where your point of view comes from. Just asking, not trying to argue.

[goonster]

Here is whey the PA report is so scary:
- The report relies primarily on subpoenaed church files, which means the numbers are based on cases the dioceses knew about and processed internally. How many were not reported to, or recorded by, the church?
- This is the first state-wide inquiry. What would they find in other states?
- The symmetry in how different dioceses treated these cases so similarly is just awful.

I have no ax to grind with the church, and was inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt twenty years ago, e.g. "every group has bad apples, scattered cases of abuse and coverup are terrible, but surely the church is not doing this as a matter of policy, when the full context emerges we will see many who tried to do the right thing, etc."

But, the more we look into it, the worse it is.

A single case of abuse is terrible. The emerging picture of how often this happened, and how long it went on for is just horrific.

[colker]

Maybe you should start your own forum.

Why don´t YOU start another forum? If you need help, tell us.. i will contribute.

[beeatnik]

Interesting to see this thread be so long.

I have personal baggage here too. And I do think it is kind of OK to tar and feather a large percentage of catholics for this stuff because a lot of lay Catholics are being incredibly observant of what they've been told to do their whole lives and have offered up near 100% forgiveness to the clergy and have not closed their wallets.


That's the point I've inelegantly tried to stress. I try not to reflect too much on my Catholic upbringing. If I hadn't been raised Catholic and educated by Jesuits, I wouldn't be an atheist (thank you World Religion class in 12th grade). I don't have the psychic energy or academic training to try to figure out how and why a society exists with any rate of child abuse. So, yes, I can easily "tar and feather" a large percentage of Catholics (and the legal substructures which protect them) but then, for me, it becomes a question of religion, power and politics. It becomes a question of the human condition (which is beyond the scope of Paceline).




I am not catholic. I am jewish and this is a cycling forum called Paceline.. I navigate here to look at fast bikes on pavement.
I will leave a suggestion: a subforum for politics where we can despise and offend all religions, another for personal stories, another for slow riding, commuting etc..

This.

[colker]

Hardly any 'people' have been more persecuted than the Jewish people. I wonder if that's where your point of view comes from. Just asking, not trying to argue.

Yes. Not only from there.. i have catholic friends. Very religious. we talk a lot about their dogmas and faith. I find religion a very interesting subject.
I see freedom of speech coming from freedom of thought and freedom of faith.

[cash05458]

Yes. Not only from there.. i have catholic friends. Very religious. we talk a lot about their dogmas and faith. I find religion a very interesting subject.
I see freedom of speech coming from freedom of thought and freedom of faith.

ok then...hopefully you might see that it is ok folks actually discussing a serious issue as a matter of freedom of both speech and thought even if that might concern a certain faith...

[colker]

ok then...hopefully you might see that it is ok folks actually discussing a serious issue as a matter of freedom of both speech and thought even if that might concern a certain faith...

Sure... i am just saying there is much more to the Church than the news. Faith and religion are complex subjects w/ centuries of history behind and a lot of personal inveolvement. Identities are built around faith. The Church is not only a bureaucratic institution. The church is the faith.

[benb]

That's the point I've inelegantly tried to stress. I try not to reflect too much on my Catholic upbringing. If I hadn't been raised Catholic and educated by Jesuits, I wouldn't be an atheist (thank you World Religion class in 12th grade). I don't have the psychic energy or academic training to try to figure out how and why a society exists with any rate of child abuse. So, yes, I can easily "tar and feather" a large percentage of Catholics (and the legal substructures which protect them) but then, for me, it becomes a question of religion, power and politics. It becomes a question of the human condition (which is beyond the scope of Paceline).


I had already kind of given up in my head when I went to Rome and saw the Pope's altar of solid gold. Too much dissonance from a lifetime of being told to be humble and that it was easier for the poor man to find his way into Heaven, etc, etc..

If you're Catholic and you can't deal with discussion about this stuff (the abuses, not the wealth) or introspect about it you might be part of the problem. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here but it is a thing that exists. My parents are kind of in that category, my grandparents probably were as well. This stuff did absolutely 0 to shake my grandparents. My parents paused and then just went right on with business as usual.

It really has taken the money to be able to continue to shove this stuff under the rug. Rome probably has enough money to pay everyone off for hundreds of years but locally the money thing does seem to hit them as Rome doesn't necessarily want to send money back down the hierarchy. Here in Boston they had to sell off some of their assets and close a lot of churches to pay for some of the settlements. The Cardinal was living a life of luxury in a way just like Rome. But 20 years more of donations and they've seemingly refilled the coffers.

I don't think the money thing is unique to Catholicism either.. I've heard interesting stories about the Bishops extracting money from Methodist parishes the same way even when the parish is on the verge of having to close from lack of money. Once the money is up in the hierarchy they do what they will with it. Growing up you always had extra donation drives in Catholic churches for the "Bishop's fund". I'm not sure the priests even knew what that was going to be used for.

[cash05458]

"If you're Catholic and you can't deal with discussion about this stuff (the abuses, not the wealth) or introspect about it you might be part of the problem."

This...:hello:

[redir]

This article says what I was trying to say better:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/us/priest-sexual-abuse-catholic-church.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

[colker]

"If you're Catholic and you can't deal with discussion about this stuff (the abuses, not the wealth) or introspect about it you might be part of the problem."

This...:hello:

Hey..Colnago and Campagnolo are also part of the "problem".

[echappist]

Actually there are. State. Army. Justice. Doctors.
Religion was once powerfull. Now it is weak and can be spit on by everybody without consequence.
Don´t kick the weak. Let´s go for the big bullies.

Where is the thread about illegal catholic kids kept in barracks separated from their mothers?

You've lost sight of the situation.

The weak are the victims of abuse and their families, who for too long could not speak out because of fear of alienation and retribution.

When an organization (viz. the Catholic Church in PA) can successfully lobby to have statute of limitation changed, that's not the sign of a weak organization. Rather, it's a sign of a powerful organization with means to influence laws, in order to reduce its own culpability.

[echappist]

Hey..Colnago and Campagnolo are also part of the "problem".

what is it with you and your continuous use of red herrings to distract the issue? It almost seems as if you want to muddy the waters, so that the fault assessed could be reduced. Previously, you have mentioned sufferings of Catholics at the hand of others and with good deeds performed by the Church. Assuming that the Church can take credit for the deeds, you should be clear and just say why you are bringing up all this.

From one perspective, it appears as if you want to institute a point system, where any sins of the Church nets the Church a docking of points, while any grievances suffered by worshipers and good deeds performed add points to the tally.

Or are you just saying that there are so many evil doers in the world, that the venality associated with the Church should be overlooked or that judgment be reduced? You never made a statement of why you are dragging in all these tangential issues, and it's hard to address your posts when you aren't being clear.

[colker]

what is it with you and your continuous use of red herrings to distract the issue? It almost seems as if you want to muddy the waters, so that the fault assessed could be reduced. Previously, you have mentioned sufferings of Catholics at the hand of others and with good deeds performed by the Church. Assuming that the Church can take credit for the deeds, you should be clear and just say why you are bringing up all this.

From one perspective, it appears as if you want to institute a point system, where any sins of the Church nets the Church a docking of points, while any grievances suffered by worshipers and good deeds performed add points to the tally.

Or are you just saying that there are so many evil doers in the world, that the venality associated with the Church should be overlooked or that judgment be reduced? You never made a statement of why you are dragging in all these tangential issues, and it's hard to address your posts when you aren't being clear.

Let me count how many "you" written there. Too many. It will take some time. Meanwhile let´s pray for the cycling.

[cash05458]

Hey..Colnago and Campagnolo are also part of the "problem".

So now you are pretty much saying that anyone catholic is guilty via that campy and colnago thing? Noone ever said that...I have not seen a single comment here about that...the comment you are reacting to is about not being able to deal introspectively about issues...rather than being reactive and just tossing crap up like you just did...

hey, one thing I did learn from my many decades with the Jesuits is to follow your own logic in an argument...I will give them that.

[AngryScientist]

This has been a good and interesting thread with a lot of good discussion, but unfortunately it looks like we are past the point of productivity here.

Let's see what comes of this in following weeks and months, if anything.