OT: Question for you musical types

[MattTuck]

My twins are finally out of the intensive care nursery, and at home with us. They take great delight in waking us up at all hours of the night and generally making our lives very difficult.

Despite this, I do still love them and want to help them as much as I can. There is a guy on youtube named Rick Beato, who is an artist, producer, engineer, etc.
(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJquYOG5EL82sKTfH9aMA9Q)

You may have seen a video of him with his son, in which his son demonstrates perfect pitch. And has some videos related to how to develop perfect pitch (spoiler alert, adults can't develop it.) by playing complex music like complex jazz, atonal classical music and bebop. (here's the first of 4 parts of the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgFdics3uKo)

He even has an app, called Nuryl, that costs around $10 per month, and provides music play lists and lessons for your baby to help develop the ability of perfect pitch.

My question to the musical types here, do we think there is any benefit to such a program? If there is even small chance that something like this could help, I'd be interested. Also, not sure I need the app, I could potentially just get a list of music to play, and play it for them.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[parris]

I'm not musical but am familiar with his channel. I will say that one of the things that I wish I had done when I was a child was to have been exposed to more music.

[marciero]

I can remember ads years ago in magazines selling programs that purported to develop perfect pitch. Perfect pitch- the ability to name a note played on the piano as, eg, "A", is not very useful, and need not be related to musical aptitude. In fact, the note "A" is pretty arbitrarily defined, and so therefore, are all the other tones in the 12-tone system. Over the centuries, "A" has drifted from somewhere below 440 hertz to as high as 444. I am pretty sure that perfect pitch is separate from musical aptitude or ability. People with perfect pitch dont necessarily have greater innate musical talent.
What IS very useful is the ability to identify intervals-that is, the relationship between two notes, and by extension, chords-several simultaneous notes. The small boy was doing that too when he was naming chords. This can be developed with ear training. You wont be able to identify an A minor 7 flat 5, but you could identify that it was a minor 7 flat 5, for example. (Or you might call it a minor 6 with a different root-that's another story). This is harmony that all music students study.

Where the frequency that we define as "A" is arbitrary, the relationship of tones-intervals and harmony, and the way we hear them-is pretty universal in a general sense across cultures, even allowing for systems different from the Western 12-tone, and there are also analogues in all kinds of places in the natural world.

[MattTuck]

I can remember ads years ago in magazines selling programs that purported to develop perfect pitch. Perfect pitch- the ability to name a note played on the piano as, eg, "A", is not very useful, and need not be related to musical aptitude. In fact, the note "A" is pretty arbitrarily defined, and so therefore, are all the other tones in the 12-tone system. Over the centuries, "A" has drifted from somewhere below 440 hertz to as high as 444. I am pretty sure that perfect pitch is separate from musical aptitude or ability. People with perfect pitch dont necessarily have greater innate musical talent.
What IS very useful is the ability to identify intervals-that is, the relationship between two notes, and by extension, chords-several simultaneous notes. The small boy was doing that too when he was naming chords. This can be developed with ear training. You wont be able to identify an A minor 7 flat 5, but you could identify that it was a minor 7 flat 5, for example. (Or you might call it a minor 6 with a different root-that's another story). This is harmony that all music students study.

Where the frequency that we define as "A" is arbitrary, the relationship of tones-intervals and harmony, and the way we hear them-is pretty universal in a general sense across cultures, even allowing for systems different from the Western 12-tone, and there are also analogues in all kinds of places in the natural world.

I think there may also be some advantage in learning languages, and being able to discern different sounds (not just the 88 notes of western music). Maybe I'll just start playing audiobooks in chinese, arabic, english and italian... and navajo, maybe, while we're at it.

His theory seems to be that just exposing children to a wide variety of sounds may be the secret. His point about regular children's music being very simple, and thus not really providing the best data set to train the brain, seems to make sense, but who knows.

On the other hand, I don't have a music studio in my house. And I can't, just out of the blue, go to a piano and play a augmented flat 13th chord, and then tell them that is what it is. So, I'm sure even if you could develop the physiological ability -- the training that Rick Beato is giving his kids is much more in depth around the theory and shear volume of exposure and interaction.

[Louis]

I think there may also be some advantage in learning languages, and being able to discern different sounds (not just the 88 notes of western music).

n = 1 data point:

I grew up speaking three different languages from day one, and can't carry a tune worth a darn.

Good Luck

PS: Maybe you can use the twins to research some soothing music or sounds that are guaranteed to cause any baby to sleep soundly for 8 hrs at a time - that's a surefire way to improve your quality of life today and your finances for the rest of your days.

PPS: Have you seen the movie "Three Identical Strangers?" I don't think your twins are identical, but I'm sure it would still be of interest to you.

[cmbicycles]

I teach elementary music, so although I have a music degree I sometimes feel like I spend more time as a classroom management strategist some days. I know some musicians who have "perfect pitch" and some who can guess pretty close with good regularity. Those with perfect pitch can have trouble playing with others who don't, and in different tunings (ie A440 vs A442), because if they hear someone playing off pitch they can get out of sorts. Its kind of like when someone misspells pelOton on the forum, and elder spud gets all bent out of shape. ;) I think our idea of equal temperment, 12 equal semi-tones, doesn't always sound the most musical, its a compromise. I heard a demonstration by a composer who programmed an electronic keyboard to Bach's well-tempered tuning (as well as a few other tuning systems) and when you play period music it sounds remarkably different when the same tune is played in equal tempered tuning versus when played in another tuning back to back. I didn't think it would be as noticeable as it was when I heard it.

I guess perfect pitch can be helpful in some instances, but I wouldn't worry about putting much effort into it. I don't have it and I haven't suffered any ill effects in my musicianship, to my knowledge. I think just being exposed to as much of the nuanced variety of great music is a big step in the right direction. Play "Berceuse" by Charles Ives sometime... then jump into "from The Swimmers." The first is what you feel when they are both happily sleeping (if that in fact happens for you), the second is more like when they are both taking great delight in unsettling you.

[ColonelJLloyd]

His theory seems to be that just exposing children to a wide variety of sounds may be the secret. His point about regular children's music being very simple, and thus not really providing the best data set to train the brain, seems to make sense, but who knows.

First, congratulations on making it out of what is likely the most precarious period of having children who showed up early.

Second, good on ya for thinking about giving them every leg up you can think of.

Our son was born 5 1/2 weeks early two years ago last week. During our stay in the NICU, a musical therapist (I admittedly do not remember if that is what the guy is actually called) came to visit us and talked to us about the benefits of singing, and with low volume acoustic guitar if desired, many of the very simple children's songs we are all familiar with along with Kangaroo Care because of the melody and tempo that those songs share. And the particular voice and pitch that is most beneficial to them (or that they are most receptive to or whatever) are, not surprisingly, those most common to women.

I play guitar and was in a rock n roll band for many years, though I'm not a trained musician and don't possess more than a cursory grasp of music theory. My wife, though, has far less musical talent or skill than I do. But, as mothers do everyday, she impressed the hell out of me by putting in the time and singing to our son regularly and deliberately as demonstrated by the music therapist. It was very touching and emotional to witness and participate as I'm sure you can imagine.

Anyhow, what I'm saying is that the development of your children's sense of pitch and musical ear is a great idea and one worth pursuing, but don't neglect the visceral connection and comfort that can be brought to your child from the seemingly simple children songs that come from you and mom. Apparently they are well known and enduring for good reason.

[Steve in SLO]

I don’t know nuttin’ about nuttin’ you’re asking about, but I’m glad the babes are out of the NICU.

[weisan]

We played classical music for all our kids when they were infants. Not sure if it helps but certainly no harm and easy enough to do with the press of a button so we do it anyways.

A friend taught spanish at school to very young children. Not so much the grammar or the mechanics which is too advanced for that age but by merely playing Spanish tapes over and over again. She said just by getting them to listen and familiarize with the sounds at this super young age goes a long way to teaching them the language much later on. I may be over-simplifying what she's doing but that's the gist of it.

Again, I haven't done much research on my part, but using my lazy man logic, it kinda make sense, something to do with influencing the neural pathways during those early critical formative years

[marciero]

... I think our idea of equal temperment, 12 equal semi-tones, doesn't always sound the most musical, its a compromise. I heard a demonstration by a composer who programmed an electronic keyboard to Bach's well-tempered tuning (as well as a few other tuning systems) and when you play period music it sounds remarkably different when the same tune is played in equal tempered tuning versus when played in another tuning back to back. I didn't think it would be as noticeable as it was when I heard it.
...


It's very much a compromise. The 12 notes in the Western musical scale are evenly spaced in the sense that the frequency ratio of adjacent tones is constant. This allows playing in different keys, but results in chords and intervals being slightly out of tune. For example, when a violinist plays a musical "fifth" interval, like an A and an E, either solo or in a small setting such as a string quartet, the ratio of the frequencies will be a so-called Pythagorean fifth, which is 3:2 (or as close as they can get). That is, one frequency 1.5 times higher than the other; for example, 440hz and 660 hz. This sounds the most sonorous, and universally so-across cultures, etc. But while 440 is on the piano, 660 is not. What is on the piano representing E, or what a piano tuner shoots for, is 2^(7/12) or about 1.4983... times higher. It;s an irrational number so the decimal does not terminate. That frequency is about 659.255...
Close enough for most people, but one of the reasons that good acapella groups sound so great is that they tune to each other internally, and not to a piano. Violinists and other non-fretted instruments can do this too. In Renaissance (or Baroque) times, string instruments had movable frets to allow better intonation in different keys. If you play guitar and struggle to get the B string in tune, or some chords sound great but not others, this is part of the reason.

With even temperament, if you start at C and go up in fifths, you will go through all 12 tones and arrive back at C. I proved a mathematical result that shows if you do this with the pythagorean fifth, you go on infinitely without repeating any "notes", and the set of notes you generate will distribute themselves uniformly in the octave. The set of notes is also "dense" in the sense that if you pick any two notes, no matter how close together, eventually this infinite circle of fifths will have a note in between.

[ergott]

This guy really know his stuff. It's a very detailed explanation and a great watch. It's the first question he answers.


Adam Neely Do you have PERFECT PITCH?! | Q+A #49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD9zdaYVk48

[ergott]

My twins are finally out of the intensive care nursery, and at home with us. They take great delight in waking us up at all hours of the night and generally making our lives very difficult.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Great to hear they are doing well.

That guy is selling snake oil. By all means share whatever music you like with them. Bach grew up with hymns. Didn't hold him back. Saying that children's songs are too simple is flat out wrong. If anything they are excellent for developing theory later on. It's easy to teach people intervals with simple tunes.

[Bob Ross]

Perfect pitch- the ability to name a note played on the piano as, eg, "A", is not very useful, and need not be related to musical aptitude. In fact, the note "A" is pretty arbitrarily defined, and so therefore, are all the other tones in the 12-tone system. Over the centuries, "A" has drifted from somewhere below 440 hertz to as high as 444. I am pretty sure that perfect pitch is separate from musical aptitude or ability. People with perfect pitch dont necessarily have greater innate musical talent.



Long time musician here -- been playing an instrument since 1967, have two college degrees in music, was a full-time professional musician for ~20 years, yadda-yadda-yadda -- and I agree with all of the above (as well as Marciero's further comment that Relative Pitch is a useful skill. Mandatory, in fact.)

When I was a much younger musician I looked upon the few musicians I encountered who did possess Perfect Pitch with a mixture of awe and jealousy: It seems like it would be an incredibly valuable skill to a musician. And there is some value to it.

But its value is mostly as a parlor trick.

And in talking to those few musicians I met who possessed Perfect Pitch I learned something else: It can be a curse. Imagine every passing car horn rubbing up against your internal calibration, making you wince because it's not quite a Bb. Or hearing an orchestra play and not being able to focus on the music because one violin out of 30 is just the tiniest bit sharp.

Another composer I know says "Perfect Pitch is a disease."

[William]

"I brought Mozart to play while the baby sleeps to make him smarter because leading experts say Mozart makes babies smarter. ...And the beauty part is the babies don't even have to listen 'cause they're asleep! You know, I wish my parents played Mozart when I slept because half the time I don't even know what the heck anyone's talking about!"








:):):)
William

[cmg]

"They take great delight in waking us up at all hours of the night and generally making our lives very difficult." You will have a chance to regale them with stories during this period of the early life when they are older at family get to togethers. Stories about having to get emergency diapers in the middle of the night or baby formula will be entertaining. Enjoy it, the soothing music may be for you and your wife as your trying to quiet them so you can get back to sleep in the middle of the night. If they wind up learning perfect pitch, it will be by accident.

[sg8357]

Babies, simple inputs to a system of near infinite complexity
have have unknowable outputs.

So, play Gilbert & Sullivan to babies will result in children who
can talk amazingly fast, future auctioneers.

Sondheim, world weary 11 year olds.

Andrew Lloyd Weber, future TV shopping star presenter.

JS Bach, children who are very careful about clothes folding
and have their Lego arranged just so.

[AngryScientist]

i dont know anything about perfect pitch, or any ability to learn, etc, but we play classical music around the house all the time, usually just straight off of pandora, spotify or apple. i think it sets the atmosphere for a little more calm environment for the kids, the new puppy, and me.

way back when we had our first puppy - that was the only thing that got her to sleep. she was a pretty smart dog, come to think of it. maybe it was the music?

[Bob Ross]

https://s22.postimg.cc/j8iu8q6jl/irrelative_pitch.jpg

[ergott]

https://s22.postimg.cc/j8iu8q6jl/irrelative_pitch.jpg

Steve Turre does that!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuq6prZHoA

[redir]

Interestingly from what I understand Chinese languages use pitch as a method of communication so most Chinese people can hear a sound and know where it is on the scale even if they are not musical and even if they don't know what note it is. They learn it from day one as it is an integral part of their language.

Here perfect pitch is somewhat of a novelty. It's not really necessary for anything unless perhaps you are a musician but even then most musicians do not have perfect pitch. I know one who does though and it's really an impressive thing to see.

I can see the benefit in it. Especially if one day your kids want to learn Mandarin or something. I would not be surprised if it opens the doors to other mental faculties too though.

[ergott]

Perfect pitch is also somewhat of a misnomer. Actual perfect pitch can identify pitch down to the frequency. Just being able to hear an "A" and correctly identifying it doesn't necessarily mean perfect pitch. I can pick off the correct pitch most of the time just from hearing it and I promise you I don't have perfect pitch. There are many degrees of relative pitch.

Here's an experiment you can try with someone that has perfect pitch. Have them tune a stringed instrument (or similar) to exactly A=440 when they first wake up and have no reference. That's perfect pitch. Again, not very advantageous in music. Relative pitch is trainable and more useful.

[MattTuck]

Perfect pitch is also somewhat of a misnomer. Actual perfect pitch can identify pitch down to the frequency. Just being able to hear an "A" and correctly identifying it doesn't necessarily mean perfect pitch. I can pick off the correct pitch most of the time just from hearing it and I promise you I don't have perfect pitch. There are many degrees of relative pitch.



I hear what you're saying. And yes, I do not think playing the music is going to guarantee that they have perfect pitch. as you say, it is probably a spectrum from tone deaf all the way up to actual pitch. I think it is more likely that lots of exposure may help to push them further along that spectrum, than they would be naturally without the exposure. I can tell you, I am probably at the lower end of pitch perception. So, my hope is that exposure can help them overcome whatever genetic headwinds they are up against.

Even if you don't have perfect pitch, I'm guessing your facility with music puts you in the 90th percentile, or better.

[DfCas]

"Perfect pitch" is not accurate enough to set the pitch to tune a piano. Other tuners I have known with pitch memory use a pitch reference to set A440, as they cannot set it close enough without a device. I use a tuning fork although I can get with a couple cents of A440 thats not good enough.

it is important, if kids are playing a piano, to have it tuned to A440. Its not uncommon to see pianos from 1/2 to 1 step flat, and kids with pitch memory can struggle with these gross pitch errors all their life. A few cents, no.

[EPOJoe]

I just happen to be one in a set of twins, with both of us having been in the same Rock band for the last forty years. I’m sure that if you talked to my parents, they’d tell you to keep your kids away from any kind of music and let them play with stethoscopes instead. Perfect pitch...largely useless.

[marciero]

And in talking to those few musicians I met who possessed Perfect Pitch I learned something else: It can be a curse. Imagine every passing car horn rubbing up against your internal calibration, making you wince because it's not quite a Bb. [B]Or hearing an orchestra play and not being able to focus on the music because one violin out of 30 is just the tiniest bit sharp.[\B]

Another composer I know says "Perfect Pitch is a disease."

But the violin clashing with the rest of the orchestra would be a relative pitch issue. Are you suggesting that those with perfect pitch have a more finely tuned relative pitch? I would bet thats not the case. Maybe it would be doubly annoying since both its relative and absolute pitch are off.

I wonder if perfect pitch is akin to synaesthesia in some way, where for example hearing a sound evokes the same response as seeing a color.
This would make sense to me since the names of the colors are arbitrary. We can only identify blue once we learn that [I] that [\I] color is blue. Similarly the frequency we define as "A" is arbitrary. Hearing the not-quite-Bb carn horn would just be a slightly different color than Bb.
I am sure neuroscience has something to say about this as music and the brain has been studied a lot in recent years. (Two books in the popular press that i would recommend are This is your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin and Musicaphelia by Oliver Saks, though neither addresses this question)

[weisan]

I just happen to be one in a set of twins, with both of us having been in the same Rock band for the last forty years. I’m sure that if you talked to my parents, they’d tell you to keep your kids away from any kind of music and let them play with stethoscopes instead. Perfect pitch...largely useless.

Hahaha....so true!

[Bob Ross]

But the violin clashing with the rest of the orchestra would be a relative pitch issue. Are you suggesting that those with perfect pitch have a more finely tuned relative pitch? I would bet thats not the case. Maybe it would be doubly annoying since both its relative and absolute pitch are off.

As they explained it to me, it's akin to the Close Only Counts In Horseshoes And Hand Grenades maxim: Pitches are either in tune or they aren't, there's no gray area.* The rogue violin would clash with Mr. Perfect Pitch's sense of In Tune/Out Of Tune irrespective of whether the rest of the orchestra was playing or not.

I suppose you could say that it's a "relative pitch issue" in that they're comparing other musicians' pitch relative to their own personal internal calibration of what a note should be, but that seems like an unnecessarily reductionist -- or axiomatic -- definition of Perfect Pitch...and/or an obfuscation of how Perfect Pitch differs from the standard understanding of what Relative Pitch means.

*It would be interesting to measure exactly how discriminating folks with Perfect Pitch are. E.g., how close to A440 does an A have to be before they discern it as being "in tune"? Two cents? A quarter cent? I would warrant that there is gray area (and a different amount from person to person)...they just don't perceive it as such.

[cmg]

I just happen to be one in a set of twins, with both of us having been in the same Rock band for the last forty years. Perfect pitch...largely useless.

one of the Hanson brothers.....MMMbop?

[kmac]

so... i do have perfect pitch, and i can say these things about its usefulness:
- it was very useful to my musical development as a kid, as i could not only hear single notes, but be able to hear complex chord progressions, and just somehow innately translate them into something i could play back on piano, guitar, etc. when asked to describe how this works (and i can't, i'm not sure i understand myself), it somehow "feels" like if someone were to look at a complex textile pattern, and can see the different colors/shapes in it. you don't necessarily have to have a frame of reference to know that green is green or a triangle is a triangle. to listen to a song once and immediately be able to transcribe the chord progression (as well as what each individual instrument is doing) is a leg-up on folks who may not be able to do that.
- when i first tried a non-concert-pitch instrument (an alto sax), i received the instrument before any instruction. within a week i could play it pretty well for a 10 year old kid, and any song on the radio i could immediately play along with. but i didn't know that a "c" wasn't a "c" -- and it took me quite a while to transpose the notes in my head. i still would say that overall, it was an advantage to have it, and that transposition was perhaps another useful thing that it forced me to develop.
- what i DO think it hindered was my work-ethic and dedication to music. the perfect pitch made it SO easy to get to 95% that i never was willing to put in the work to achieve 100% -- not that you really ever get to that, but you get the idea. that last 5% is what separates the good from the great. i was still able to get acceptance into the music programs i wanted (ultimately, i ended up putting down music and going into technology... i'm happy with my life so i think it was a good decision), but many of my friends who did not have perfect pitch but worked their asses off did go onto become successful orchestral musicians, rock musicians, etc. they all still wished they had perfect pitch, though, so there might be a "grass is always greener" thing going on.

so, all that being said -- i have no idea if you can truly create perfect pitch in someone who doesn't have it. i do think that exposure to music as a child is important. despite having non-musical parents, there was a junky old piano in my parents' house, and they kept it in tune. we all theorize maybe that's how i got it, but will never really know. but, i've been glad to have it, and still enjoy being able to play well known songs without ever having tried before. somehow, they just come out of me and into the instrument i have around. it's a neat trick to have. you can get some of those things out of relative pitch, but i know that when i would put the ability of perfect against relative when figuring out how to play things by ear, even my friends who went on to become professional musicians still had more difficulties than i did getting to the proper end result.

boy that was a lot of words. maybe not so useful. just wanted to give a different perspective.

[colbyh]

As a newish dad (ours came at 34 weeks, congrats on leaving NICU!) and a musician (in varying degrees) for the last 20 years - I totally understand the "do anything to help the kid" mentality. As far as I'm aware, there's no downside to playing a ton of music. Crazy music. Noise music, classical music, free jazz, and the Beatles.

But the second it becomes stressful (for you) or unenjoyable for the kid - please go find something else to do. Your strength/patience/creativity in engaging with the child is going to do much more for them than any sort of "program" will at this age, and if you stress yourself out trying to find the "best" music to play for the kid you're going to quickly tire out.

A similar thing happened to us when we were trying to expose him to all the crazy (healthy) foods we could in order to lessen his chances at having food allergies. Now we're at the "just throw things at him" stage and life is much easier for everyone 😂

[marciero]

so... i do have perfect pitch, and i can say these things about its usefulness:
- it was very useful to my musical development as a kid, as i could not only hear single notes, but be able to hear complex chord progressions, and just somehow innately translate them into something i could play back on piano, guitar, etc. when asked to describe how this works (and i can't, i'm not sure i understand myself), it somehow "feels" like if someone were to look at a complex textile pattern, and can see the different colors/shapes in it. you don't necessarily have to have a frame of reference to know that green is green or a triangle is a triangle. to listen to a song once and immediately be able to transcribe the chord progression (as well as what each individual instrument is doing) is a leg-up on folks who may not be able to do that.
- when i first tried a non-concert-pitch instrument (an alto sax), i received the instrument before any instruction. within a week i could play it pretty well for a 10 year old kid, and any song on the radio i could immediately play along with. but i didn't know that a "c" wasn't a "c" -- and it took me quite a while to transpose the notes in my head. i still would say that overall, it was an advantage to have it, and that transposition was perhaps another useful thing that it forced me to develop.
- what i DO think it hindered was my work-ethic and dedication to music. the perfect pitch made it SO easy to get to 95% that i never was willing to put in the work to achieve 100% -- not that you really ever get to that, but you get the idea. that last 5% is what separates the good from the great. i was still able to get acceptance into the music programs i wanted (ultimately, i ended up putting down music and going into technology... i'm happy with my life so i think it was a good decision), but many of my friends who did not have perfect pitch but worked their asses off did go onto become successful orchestral musicians, rock musicians, etc. they all still wished they had perfect pitch, though, so there might be a "grass is always greener" thing going on.

so, all that being said -- i have no idea if you can truly create perfect pitch in someone who doesn't have it. i do think that exposure to music as a child is important. despite having non-musical parents, there was a junky old piano in my parents' house, and they kept it in tune. we all theorize maybe that's how i got it, but will never really know. but, i've been glad to have it, and still enjoy being able to play well known songs without ever having tried before. somehow, they just come out of me and into the instrument i have around. it's a neat trick to have. you can get some of those things out of relative pitch, but i know that when i would put the ability of perfect against relative when figuring out how to play things by ear, even my friends who went on to become professional musicians still had more difficulties than i did getting to the proper end result.

boy that was a lot of words. maybe not so useful. just wanted to give a different perspective.

Thanks for sharing. I would say there is a lot more going on there than just perfect pitch, which is typically understood as simply the ability to sing or name a note without a reference. There are plenty of people that can do that that dont have the talent that you describe; esp. as it sounds like you were doing this before you had training. Your description also seems to support the connection with synaesthesia.

[Louis]

A similar thing happened to us when we were trying to expose him to all the crazy (healthy) foods we could in order to lessen his chances at having food allergies. Now we're at the "just throw things at him" stage and life is much easier for everyone 😂

I read an article in the NYT a while back describing the results of a study that found that exposure to animals, dirt and the outdoors helps with this.

Moral of the story: don't keep your kids in an antiseptic environment and be sure they also eat dirt...

[ergott]

so... i do have perfect pitch, and i can say these things about its usefulness:
- it was very useful to my musical development as a kid, as i could not only hear single notes, but be able to hear complex chord progressions, and just somehow innately translate them into something i could play back on piano, guitar, etc. when asked to describe how this works (and i can't, i'm not sure i understand myself), it somehow "feels" like if someone were to look at a complex textile pattern, and can see the different colors/shapes in it. you don't necessarily have to have a frame of reference to know that green is green or a triangle is a triangle. to listen to a song once and immediately be able to transcribe the chord progression (as well as what each individual instrument is doing) is a leg-up on folks who may not be able to do that.


Thanks for posting.

That description falls more into line with the accounts of the 3 people I've known and can honestly say had perfect pitch. Sounds a lot like chromesthesia is involved.

[MattTuck]

Thanks for sharing. I would say there is a lot more going on there than just perfect pitch, which is typically understood as simply the ability to sing or name a note without a reference. There are plenty of people that can do that that dont have the talent that you describe; esp. as it sounds like you were doing this before you had training. Your description also seems to support the connection with synaesthesia.




kmac, thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Curious if your abilities with hearing helped at all with memory, learning language or other abilities that are often linked with perfect pitch.

I'd agree with many here that perfect pitch, in and of itself, is not particularly useful outside of a very narrow set of activities. However, there seems to be a correlation with perfect pitch and other cognitive skills.

Also, on the point others brought up about hearing things out of tune, and some people with perfect pitch being annoyed by it, I wonder if that is a conditioned result of listening to lots of western music. If the notes are truly arbitrary, I'm not sure why one unnamed note would be any more bothersome than a named note.

Marciero brought up (I think) the idea that we only know colors are colors because we are repeatedly told that this color is "green" (for example). I wonder, if you were trying to train someone with perfect pitch, instead of saying "this note is an A", you said, "This note is 440 Hz" and then the next note is "x Hz", and so on. I wonder if this would give them the ability not just to name the notes, but to estimate the frequency of those in between sounds. If it is truly an arbitrary name for various frequencies, I wonder if you just skip the names, and go right to the tones themselves.

Anyway, interesting discussion all. Thank you for your insights. I've taken away from it that I am not going to spend the $10 per month on the Nuryl App. But will continue to play music to the babies. If anyone has recommendations for complex music, jazz, classical, atonal, etc. I could use some direction. As it is now, I mostly just search youtube until I find something that is in the right genre, 45+ minutes long, and doesn't have any ads.

[buddybikes]

Music couples tend to breed musical kids, how much genes and how much learned, probably both. If it is integrated into your life, good chance it will pass on.

Sometimes if flies out of nowhere. My nephew is a Sax player out of NE Conservatory in Boston, nobody in our extended family can keep a pitch or play an instrument. Perhaps the mailman was good.

[kmac]

kmac, thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Curious if your abilities with hearing helped at all with memory, learning language or other abilities that are often linked with perfect pitch.


boy, it's hard to say. i don't feel particularly exceptional in areas like non-musical memory or language. that being said, it's hard to separate out its influence on my learning, since i've never NOT had the hearing/music abilities. it's interesting to think about though.


Anyway, interesting discussion all. Thank you for your insights. I've taken away from it that I am not going to spend the $10 per month on the Nuryl App. But will continue to play music to the babies. If anyone has recommendations for complex music, jazz, classical, atonal, etc. I could use some direction. As it is now, I mostly just search youtube until I find something that is in the right genre, 45+ minutes long, and doesn't have any ads.

and i would say, if you have the means to have a piano/keyboard (i believe that's the most important of all the instruments to learn and understand) to expose your child to at a young age, that may in and of itself go a long way. my parents weren't necessarily trying to foster some sort of musical ability in me, but it was just a lucky confluence of events that they would always have music on, and happened to have an old spinet piano in the house. they'd sit me at it from an early age and let me interact with the keys. they told me that when i was probably 2 or 3 years old, i went from mashing keys to hitting individual notes one at a time. i guess i was learning what each one did, and how they related. soon, without any training, i could play the melodies i heard. and then with minimal training (music theory is INCREDIBLY important), i could add chords, etc, and improvise most anything i heard. i'm not sure that any amount of exposure to music WITHOUT the piano available could have helped me the same way, much the same way that watching a bunch of videos about cycling would teach anyone who's never been on a bike how to actually balance one.