On Squorx / Double Square Nipples and ERD: A Head's Up (DT Swiss content)

[ColonelJLloyd]

Last night I laced up some wheels using Bitex 106 centerlock hubs, Sapim CX-Sprint spokes and DT Swiss XR361 Asym 29 rims. This rim has been on my radar since reading about it's sister rim XR331 in this thread (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=186682) and when a friend needed a decent quality, relatively light tubeless set for road and gravel use this seemed like a great application to try it out. These rims come with DT's aluminum Squorx head nipples (use not mandatory) in silver and their PHR nipple washers (use is mandatory).

I measured the ERD of the rims using Sapim Race spokes, the included Squorx nipples, PHR washers, a rubber band and Park ruler. I threaded the spokes to the point in the nipples that would've been correct for a normal nipple. It was late the night I did that and I kept getting numbers significantly lower than DT's listed ERD of 607mm. I didn't keep my notes, but I think I was coming up with 599-600mm. I thought the error must be with me and calculated and ordered spokes based on DT's listed 607mm ERD.

I laced them up and on the rear DS I used normal brass Sapim PolyAx nipples in lieu of the alloy Squorx jobs. As I started to bring them up to initial tension it became apparent that the spoke threads were going to run out past the base of the normal nipples before proper tension was achieved. So, some late night Googling revealed something maybe I should've realized, but didn't. When using nipples like the Squorx or Sapim Double Square you can (should?) use slightly longer spokes (2.3mm) than you would if you were going to use normal nipples. In order to use normal nipples you should measure ERD using normal nipples which would result in a lower ERD number and shorter spokes.

It's not that big of a deal and using the included DT Squorx nipples all should solve my issue. But, I was hoping to use brass nipples on the DS as a precaution (these wheels aren't for me), but I can't find the Squorx in silver brass aside form European sellers. I might try to source some silver brass Sapim Double Squares, but I'm also included to use the supplied aluminum nipples as DT Swiss certainly has faith in them if that's what they intend you to use.

These pics illustrate the difference in these double ended nipples versus a standard one.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download/file.php?id=66293&mode=view
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download/file.php?id=66294&sid=4abb8b5200079467f7071f27a05d76ab&mode=view

[parallelfish]

Nice, concise presentation!

Thanks, this is useful information.

[dddd]

Can I assume that the unthreaded bore length of these longer nipples is also longer to allow the end of the threading to pass freely further up into the longer nipple before the nipple threads bind on the unthreaded portion of the spoke?

[cachagua]

Great, another standard.

So I'll have to correct for 245/256ths of this for my 656G rims, 'cause they're the only ones with 1.333" inside width, which is necessary for 1/4-cubit tires, and nothing else will fit between my 188-caliber bottom bracket and my Bulge rear end...

But that'll let me use 0000-gauge thru axles, and then I'll be future-proofed.

[oldpotatoe]

When using nipples like the Squorx or Sapim Double Square you can (should?) use slightly longer spokes (2.3mm) than you would if you were going to use normal nipples

Yes you can but you don't need to. The nipple is longer due to the torx end and so more of a longer spoke stays inside the nipple but looking at 'threads engaged', enough threads are engaged as a 'normal' length spoke(even if the threads on Squorz go to the end. . It just has a 'end' on it for the DT tool..and you don't need to use that tool either..great for lacing(grease between washer and rim, and nipple) but I have used just a normal spoke key for final tensioning..

Three other points using these DT rims that use the nipple washers and Squorx nipples.

I measure all DT rims before I build, These with washers, use them underneath the Wheelsmith rods I use. I have found more than a few ERDs listed on the DT website not acurate(DT440 listed as 599, actually 596mm).

I prefer brass nipples and the brass Torx can be hard to find so I have successfully used just standard 14mm Sapim SecureLock nipples on rims like DT411/511.

When I have found brass Torx or used the aluminum ones on a front wheel..even tho a DT product, they work fine with Sapim 14/15 spokes.

BUT no, not a new standard or anything like that..just a nipple with an 'end on it.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Can I assume that the unthreaded bore length of these longer nipples is also longer to allow the end of the threading to pass freely further up into the longer nipple before the nipple threads bind on the unthreaded portion of the spoke?

I had assumed this was the case with the Squorx, Sapim Double Square and CN144 QuadDrive. However, I confirmed that the Squorx (the only one of the three I have on hand) engage the spoke threads and bottom out at roughly the same spot as a normal nipple. So, the Squorx really are just normal in function but with the Torx extension giving you the ability to drive the nipple from the outside.

The CN144 QuadDrive (illustrated in first post) is bored and threaded such that the spoke threads can reach all the way to the end of the nipple extension inside the rim. They clearly tell you to add 2.3mm to the length of a spoke calculated with traditional nipples in mind. Per CNSpoke:

Using a superior passthru head design, QuadDrive nipples improve the strength of traditional alloy nipples significantly.

Based on typical ERD measurements, you’ll use spokes 2.3mm longer than normal to allow full penetration into the nipple head & eliminate the common weak point with alloy nipples, where the neck meets the head.

Uses Park SW-0 nipple wrench (black) or Park SW-16 for access from rear thru rim.

Compatible with most any double wall rim with the exception of VERY low profile designs, such as some fatbike rims. Not compatible with single wall rims.

I am told that the Sapim and Pillar double squares also will thread all the way through the end of the nipple so it seems that the DT Swiss Squorx is the outlier of the double ended nipples out there.

In my particular case it seems that my mistake was to doubt my own measurements and go with DT's listed ERD. As it is my spokes are a little long and will likely bottom out before proper tension is achieved. I've ordered enough of the Sapim Double Squares in brass and aluminum to replace all the Squorx nipples. My spoke guy assures me they are countersunk to allow the spoke threads to go all the way to the end.

[Hindmost]

Good information about these extra long nipples. Now I'm a little confused about ERD. Is an ERD a measured diameter of the rim, or is it the measured diameter of the rim plus those millimeters we want the spoke to extend into the nipple head?

If I read a manufacturer's published ERD or if I enter an ERD into a spoke calculator what measurement is referred to?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Is an ERD a measured diameter of the rim, or is it the measured diameter of the rim plus those millimeters we want the spoke to extend into the nipple head?

The latter.

https://www.nextie.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/what-is-erd.png

[oldpotatoe]

Good information about these extra long nipples. Now I'm a little confused about ERD. Is an ERD a measured diameter of the rim, or is it the measured diameter of the rim plus those millimeters we want the spoke to extend into the nipple head?

If I read a manufacturer's published ERD or if I enter an ERD into a spoke calculator what measurement is referred to?

Nipple seat to nipple seat across rim.

[dddd]

The rim manufacturers often seem to have different ideas of how
erd is measured, easily 2-4mm to either side of the measurement shown above!

So I always confirm my own measurements of the rim, as well as confirming exactly how the particular spoke length calculator treats this issue.

[oldpotatoe]

The rim manufacturers often seem to have different ideas of how
erd is measured, easily 2-4mm to either side of the measurement shown above!

So I always confirm my own measurements of the rim, as well as confirming exactly how the particular spoke length calculator treats this issue.

Nipple SEAT to nipple SEAT, where the nipple touches the rim. Don’t add mm for nipple head. The proper spoke calc takes care of that. Otherwise spokes ‘might’ be too long. Bad. BUT I always measure, cuz published ERD ‘can’ be wrong. Invest in some Wheelsmith rods, fool proof. Opposite holes, measure overlap, subtract from 700...nein brainiac

[Hindmost]

OP, thank you for clarifying. (You can see why a person might get confused.)

I went back to the EDD spoke length calculator. They specify when they've added three mm to the ERD. For a lot of rims apparently they list the spoke seat to spoke seat dimension.

To measure ERD I use two spokes (length verified using a spoke ruler) in place with nipples threaded on and a caliper micrometer to measure the gap at the rim center between the two spoke J bends. If I am careful with the placement of the nipples I should be able to accurately measure the true ERD or the ERD plus that little extra. Yes?

[cachagua]

I always measure, cuz published ERD ‘can’ be wrong... Opposite holes, measure overlap, subtract from 700...


Presumably you measure maybe three or four places around the rim, in case there's any variation in its shape?

Or is that not worth worrying about?

[oldpotatoe]

Presumably you measure maybe three or four places around the rim, in case there's any variation in its shape?

Or is that not worth worrying about?

I do that with not new rims because the ERD can change but new rims, the ones I use, very round(DT, Velocity, HED, H+Son)...

[oldpotatoe]

OP, thank you for clarifying. (You can see why a person might get confused.)

I went back to the EDD spoke length calculator. They specify when they've added three mm to the ERD. For a lot of rims apparently they list the spoke seat to spoke seat dimension.

To measure ERD I use two spokes (length verified using a spoke ruler) in place with nipples threaded on and a caliper micrometer to measure the gap at the rim center between the two spoke J bends. If I am careful with the placement of the nipples I should be able to accurately measure the true ERD or the ERD plus that little extra. Yes?

Yup, that is essentially what Wheelsmith rods do, altho the WS rods sit at nipple seat, not into nipple hole in rim..gotta allow for that..350mm each length..measure overlap. As long as you know lengths of the 'rods'..total, overlap, subtract from total length.

For anybody who builds wheels..these rods, a good spoc-calc ap, truing stand, dishing tool, tension meter, comfy spoke keys...go build wheels:)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wheelsmith-Rim-Rods-for-Spoke-Length-Calculation/122932778512?epid=1001666735&hash=item1c9f5d5610%3Ag%3AIIAAAOSwT9JbU8W0&_sacat=0&_nkw=wheelsmith+ERD+measuring+rods&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313


But you could build some easy enough.

[Hindmost]

Presumably you measure maybe three or four places around the rim, in case there's any variation in its shape?

Or is that not worth worrying about?

Recently I have built some Eroica-worthy wheels with some of those older, softer, box section, (in some cases, used) aluminum rims. Yes, there you're not quite sure what you have until you check multiple places around the rim. Also, you're not quite sure what the spoke calc websites have listed for 30 year old rims.