Legend ST Ti ride report

[morty]

I finally got my new (to me) 2005 Legend frame built up and have taken it out for a couple of extended rides. As this is the first time I have experienced the ride qualities of titanium, other than a few short miles on a borrowed Litespeed Vortex and Seven Odonata, I wasn't sure what to expect in the way of road feel and handling. My current stable consists of a Colnago C-40 and a Pinarello Opera--both bikes that serve me well and, in the case of the Opera, fit me perfectly; and a Cannondale CAAD 3--too big, squirrely, and harsh, but good to put on the trainer in winter. I wanted something that was more laid back for doing centuries and longer rides, with stable descending manners and a plush road feel, something for which the Legend was purportedly well suited. Here is my report:

1st ride: Santa Ana River trail, mostly flat with a few rollies, 50 miles of riding all out (okay, I cheated and sucked the wheel of a tandem 3/4ths of the time). The Legend felt and handled great! Acceleration was fast, steering was just lively enough, and the little bit of rough stuff was ironed out sufficiently to give pleasantly nice road feedback. I finished the ride feeling like it was an easy spin and had no aches & pains whatsoever. Very happy.

2nd ride: Glendora Mountain Road, hilly, 48 miles, 4-6% average gradient with a few 8-10% rises. Bike again handled wonderfully on the climbs, whether seated or standing, it responded quickly to my input and behaved in every way I hoped it would. I hadn't done this ride lately and struggled the last couple times I had, but the Legend got me up the mountain easier than I anticipated. So far, everything was great.

Descending was another matter. I knew I would have to make some adjustments given the longer chainstays on the Legend (41.5 cm vs. the 40.2-40.5 on the C-40 and Opera) and that wasn't too disconcerting negotiating the smaller descending turns on the way up; but, on the way down the other side of the mountain, where the road is straighter, steeper, and very rough, the bike seemed to chatter and bounce around a bit more than what I like and am used to. Normally, I can easily ride 40+ on the carbon or steel bike with hardly any worries--they truly seem to be floating on rails. The Legend felt too unstable for my nerves beyond 35 mph. I even stopped to check to see if my rear wheel was seated properly--it was. When the road smoothed out a little it was better, but not the ride I was expecting and/or hoping for.

It is still too early to form an opinion, and I will make several changes to my existing setup, but I do have some questions for you Legend owners out there:

1. Could the ST stays be contributing to the handling effects I'm experiencing when descending rough roads?

2. Does this bike need a much lower tire pressure than what I have been running on my other bikes: 115 psi (Vittoria Action HSD, 700 x 23, on Campy Neutrons)? After reading some of the posts here this seems high.

3. Does a zero offset seatpost transmit more road vibration than one with setback? The carbon post with setback I originally intended to use kept allowing the saddle to slide back, so I replaced it with a straight Thomson that I had on hand.

4. Is this atypical characteristics for this bike and should I be looking for some other explination(s)?

The fit of the bike seems spot on. Though it wasn't custom for me, the person I bought it from was very close to my height and our weight was within three pounds of each other (125-128 lbs.), with the one difference being that she used a 90mm stem, and I am using a 100mm. I am so comfortable on this bike and love riding it on flat roads, but since much of my riding is in the mountains I would like to figure out what I could do to make it better for that purpose.

Thanks in advance for any tips.

[Ken Robb]

theory is that carbon bits like seat posts damp vibration--maybe so. The non-setback probably changed your weight distribution. Longer chainstays would make a bike more stable if all else is equal and here we know it isn't. I weigh 200 pounds and run my road tires between 90 and 110 psi so your pressure does sound high to me for your weight. I've never ridden a Serotta that was not a great descender. How are the wheels on this bike? Got any loose spokes? Loose headset? One of the all-time best descenders I've ridden was a Serotta H'ors Cat and I thought the rear end you have was supposed to bestow a similarly planted feel to a bike.
What happens when the bushings in the STS get worn? Maybe cause a squirrely back end?

[mosca]

Were you able to get enough saddle setback w/ the straight Thomson post? In my experience, having the saddle farther forward decreases the feeling of stability on descents.

Also, is GMR still closed to cars? I've been meaning to get up there again before it reopens, it's sooo nice.

[Ahneida Ride]

Morty

I have a Legend with the classic Ti stays.
She is like a big beach cruiser on downhills.
Rock Solid.

[morty]

Were you able to get enough saddle setback w/ the straight Thomson post? In my experience, having the saddle farther forward decreases the feeling of stability on descents.


Also, is GMR still closed to cars? I've been meaning to get up there again before it reopens, it's sooo nice.
Yes, just barely. The saddle is all the way back (short rails) and is within .5 cm of the original seatpost position. It feels about right, though I am switching to a saddle with longer rails so I can go back more if need be.

It is still closed to cars on the lower half (Glendora to the East Fork saddle), but the ridge to the top is open to vehicles. We only encountered a couple of cars and a dozen or so motorcycles. It's wonderful up there, and with the reconstruction of the road it won't be open to cars anytime soon. Now, if they'd only open it up to bikes during the weekday! :beer:

[morty]

theory is that carbon bits like seat posts damp vibration--maybe so. The non-setback probably changed your weight distribution. Longer chainstays would make a bike more stable if all else is equal and here we know it isn't. I weigh 200 pounds and run my road tires between 90 and 110 psi so your pressure does sound high to me for your weight. I've never ridden a Serotta that was not a great descender. How are the wheels on this bike? Got any loose spokes? Loose headset? One of the all-time best descenders I've ridden was a Serotta H'ors Cat and I thought the rear end you have was supposed to bestow a similarly planted feel to a bike.
What happens when the bushings in the STS get worn? Maybe cause a squirrely back end?
The setback seatpost was centered on the rails whereas the non-setback has the saddle all the way back, making my position over the BB about the same. I was expecting a great descending bike and the longer chainstays coupled with the ST stays should make it rock solid. The bike does have roughly 5,000 miles on it by the previous owner, so maybe it could be something with the bushings?

[Ken Robb]

The setback seatpost was centered on the rails whereas the non-setback has the saddle all the way back, making my position over the BB about the same. I was expecting a great descending bike and the longer chainstays coupled with the ST stays should make it rock solid. The bike does have roughly 5,000 miles on it by the previous owner, bso maybe it could e something with the bushings?
I think that could be it!!

[vaxn8r]

I can't imagine the ST bushings should be worn out at 5K miles. Is the fork original? Was the bike ever crashed?

I don't know much about ST stays but my main 2 rides are CF and ti and I descend on both with confidence. I've ridden 3 Serotta and they have all descended wonderfully. Better than just about anything.

If the fork is correct (rake and length) I'd look at your position on the bike next. Saddle set back, stem height length etc.

[vaxn8r]

BTW, we need pics. :)

[Blastinbob]

I have a ST Ottrott and a non ST legend, with neutrons, and they both descend great! Let me know the next time your going up GMR! :D

blastinbob@aol.com

[TAW]

Colnago geometry has a longer front center which seems to handle better in descents than the CSI that I had. It might simply be the difference in the way they're set up.

[morty]

Ooooh, I'm not so good at this. I will post better pics later...

[Jason E]

Very pretty bike, congrats and enjoy.

The pic of your bike does not tell the whole story. It is used, and most likely custom for SOMEONE, so how do the rest of the numbers compare with what you need as far as getting the H-bar and saddle in relative terms to the BB for you?

I've got a hill here that allows me to regularly exceed 40, approach 50 with a bit of effort (it's a shorty of a hill). I've bombed it on my Serotta with the ST as well as a CAAD 8 and a Madone 5.9. I had to check my speed afterwards when I did it on the Serotta cause it was so smooth I thought I was in the mid 30's! I was in the mid 40's.

[Grant McLean]

t. I weigh 200 pounds and run my road tires between 90 and 110 psi so your pressure does sound high to me for your weight.

I'm with ken. If you weigh under 130lbs, try less pressure than 115.
90 front and 100 rear should be plenty.

g

[morty]

The bike was custom built for a woman who was one inch taller and 1 cm shorter in the inseam than me. She indicated the bike was for riding centuries and longer rides, was the most comfortable bike she had ever ridden, and the only blemishes being the slight cable rub at the head tube and front der. clamp site. She wanted to do crit racing and was having a bike built up for that and needed to sell this one. When I received the bike it was in pristine condition, no scratches, scuffs or dents--so clean it looked almost brand new. I saw no indication of it ever being crashed or dropped (I know, it might be hard to tell).

Serotta kindly emailed me the build sheet (this really impressed me that Kelly returned my call and sent this to me immediately) and after looking it over and comparing the fit to my other bikes, I don't see where it's too far off. The only notable differences (compared to the C40) I can observe is as follows:

Legend: (53 cm, 8 deg. slope)

HTA 71.5
STA 73
TT 53.2
F/C 57.65
Rake 5.0
Chainstay 41.5
BB drop 8

C40: (53 cm)
HTA 71.7
STA 74
TT 53.5
F/C 58.9
Rake 43
Chainstay 40.2
BB 26.7

The original owner used a 90 mm stem, while I'm using a 100 (the build sheet specifies an 80 mm stem--could this be putting my weight too far forward?). I built the bike up to be as close to identical as possible to the C40 at the contact points (same setback, BB to saddle height, handlebar drop to saddle, etc.) except that the Legend is approx. 1 cm. shorter in reach due to the combination of shorter top tube and reduced setback of seatpost/saddle rails. I wanted a bike that was slightly shorter as I felt the C40 was a tad long in the F/C for me, making me feel like I had too much bike in front of me while climbing. For now I'm using my wheels off the Colnago, so I know the spokes are alright.

I'm going to take it out for another ride (with less tire psi) and have a friend that races jump on it and see what he thinks. Maybe I'll have to send it in to be checked out more thoroughly :(

Thanks for all the great advice. I'll repost back when I know more.

[Serotta PETE]

Morty, hope things worked out with adjustments. Is it the F2 or F3 FORK and did Kelly send rake (to see if it is about the same. I weigh lots more than that but the ST I have is wonderful going down the hills of NC. Might try giving Kelly a call again and asking. THe 10cm stem is also what I use.

PETE

[soulspinner]

Great looking bike, lots of drop. Maybe slightly too much weight on front and high pressures combined?

My first custom bike was crit style but for chainstays that were42(builders choice) . I could ride no hands but got front end wobble and white nuckle downhills at speed. I gave all the specs to Carl Strong when I had my custom built by him and he immediately said I had too much weight distributed over the front. On my Strong I can change jersies at speed its so stable. Make sure to give the folks at Serotta all your body measurements as that will help them solve the puzzle.

[SPOKE]

seems that the legend front end geometry is a bit different from the C-40.
the "trail" for the Legend is 6.1cm while the C-40 is 6.7cm. this isn't a huge difference but combined with weight distribution over the wheels you will notice a difference in how the bike feels. if i'm not mistaken, Serotta usually trys to build bikes with 5.9cm trail. your legend may have ben built with a small compromise to reduce toe overlap with the front wheel.

[morty]

After going through all the suggestions offered here, I changed a few things on the setup: 1. I lowered the tire pressure to 90 fr and 100 rear; 2. Checked the headset--it WAS a little loose; 3. Ditched the zero offset seatpost for a carbon one with some setback and moved the saddle back (from the BB position) one cm and down just a hair. After remeasuring my other bikes' setups, this is now in the correct position for me.

I returned to the same offending mountain road (though not as far up this time), pedaled down as fast as I could, and voila--the bike was smooth and steady! What a relief. My maximum speed showed 42 mph.

The handling is a little different than what I've been used to: the steering is a bit quicker due to the shorter trail, and the shorter front/center and longer chainstays give it an unfamiliar feel, but I'm sure I'll acclimate myself pretty fast.

Thank you, again, everyone for the helpful advice. I really do appreciate it so much. This may turn out to be my favorite bike yet!

[Smiley]

I bet lowering the tire pressure and moving the saddle back was HUGE , always check the head set too. Great news