Plant based diet & cycling

[Wayne77]

I'm toying with the idea of trying a plant-based diet. Its going to be a rough transition because I love sushi, fish, and the occasional steak. It all started with reading this book: How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Y7USB14/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

Since I race both road and gravel, I'm wondering how this type of diet would work for intensive training, especially long distance training. At this point in the season I'm doing at least one 100mi training ride...so typically I'm downing a lot of carbs during the ride to keep going. I do several one hour FTP based interval sessions, and a couple other 1-3 hour rides. So anywhere from 12-16 hours per week training. I realize the general health benefits or a plant based diet are extensive, but I have some questions for any of you cyclists with experience on this diet or those versed in the theory of diet & exercise....especially if you race or do intensive training.

- Are there any negative impacts on racing performance, FTP, endurance, etc with this kind of diet?

-What are your general experiences in terms of health, mental/emotional state, sleep quality, etc?

-What are your experiences and/or suggestions for transitioning from a traditional semi-healthy yet the occasional splurge meat n' taters diet?

- How about recovery? Any impacts on recovery?

- Recovery nutrition - if animal based protein is out, what is a good substitute?

- What high carb foods work well for energy during a ride or race?

Anyway, this would rule out most mass market sport nutrition products I guess...probably a good thing -it'll definitely save some money!

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts. You all have immense knowledge and I really appreciate the time you take to share it.

[AngryScientist]

one of those popular documentaries on topic shows a scene where a huge elephant is stampeding across a field and makes a point that a large animal like that with lots of power exists on a plant based diet, so it should be possible for a cyclist :)

i am far from a convert myself, i just like meat, fish, cheese, etc way too much to ever be full time on a plant based diet, so my advice, IMO would be:

try it and see, a few days a week. that's what my wife and i are striving for. there is no reason to go "cold turkey", quitting meat, fish, etc if you want to go for the change. incorporate a few days a week of plant based living and see how it goes for your body. if it seems to be a sustainable operation that you can live with (and want to) transition to more days/week, etc.

just like anything else, i think - dont rush into it, ease your body and lifestyle into the transition and see what work,s and what doesnt.

just some thoughts...

[Mark McM]

one of those popular documentaries on topic shows a scene where a huge elephant is stampeding across a field and makes a point that a large animal like that with lots of power exists on a plant based diet, so it should be possible for a cyclist :)

An elephant has a digestive tract specifically designed for its plant based diet. Do humans? If you fed a lion a entirely plant based diet, would it still be able to be the king of the jungle? It is certainly true that humans can perform at a high athletic level on an entirely plant based diet (if planned properly), but you can't analogize an elephant's diet to a human's.

Humans are omnivores, and a large part of their evolution was due having a certain amount of meat in their diet. An entirely plant based diet, while possible for humans, is not natural. (Humans also evolved based around cooking their food to release nutrients - so an entirely raw foods diet is unnatural as well.)

[JimmyTango]

I've been a vegan and racing for three years now, and I have to say that after a lifetime of nonvegan (but still very "healthy" and conscientious) eating and competitive swimming, ditching the meat has been absolutely great.

I was never a big dairy eater but fish, poultry, or red meat were the center of the plate for most dinners and many lunches for my whole life so I was always a little weary of how losing those protein sources would affect my training and racing performance and recovery. I finally decided to go full plant based when I turned 30 and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner!

After an initial couple of months adjusting to the new "rhythm" of plant based eating (read as: coming to terms with the enormous increase in volume of food it takes to keep up with the new diet) my weight leveled off about 10lbs lighter than I was on meat and that was about it...

Well, I guess before I go on and on with details that you may or may not be interested in I'll just leave the fun facts and a few pieces of advice, but feel free to ask me about anything specific and I'll be happy to share my expierences with living vegan.

I'm 6'2", and lean but fairly muscular for my weight.

Before going vegan I weighed 173lbs with a 333w FTP and 5min peak of 440w

6 months after going vegan I weighed 161lbs with a 330w FTP and 5min peak of 427w

As you can see going vegan took my watts/kilo up to a whole new level.

Be wary though: the 12lbs I lost in the first 6 months of vegan eating was probably ALL muscle mass. I was already quite lean and at 161lbs didn't feel that I had any less body fat than I had at 173lbs, so if you are vain about having an upper body you'll have to do out of your way to keep it up. I was probably eating around 75g of protien at that time without supplementing (so, LOTS of beans for dinner) and basically my upper body just disappeared... My legs were fine though and I think in a lot of ways the diet was helping me train harder and recover faster thanks to the fact that I was eating more carbs than I had been before going vegan.

Since then I have had to cut back on my training time thanks to job and kid, and I decided that I wanted to work a bit more on my whole body fitness and started lifting again. In the last 9 months I have made an effort to supplement an additional 120g of protein a day via pea protein powder (I probably get 150g total after counting protein sources in meals) and am back up to 173lbs.

So, long-story-short, I feel strongly that you can at least maintain your cycling fitness (and probably get faster) with a vegan diet. If you are big into lifting wights then sure, 250g of protein is a bit of a challenge, but for us endurance athletes you can get all you need without animals.

[Tavarez]

I race and do hard training. I went plant based several years back but I was vegetarian for a couple years before then so I really just cut out dairy. I adjusted well to both switches in diet but some people find their energy dips, while some feel they have more energy and recover quicker. Really most truly healthy foods are plants so if you are eating more plants you will notice the benefits. As said above, perfection is not necessary. It is also really easy to lose 5-10 pounds without trying but so long as you're eating enough it is just you getting a little leaner.

The negatives I have noticed are that people just construct their plant based diet poorly and are hungry or their energy levels drop. Most mornings I have a smoothie with almond milk, fruit, protein powder (Vega), chlorella, chia seed, and omegas that checks a lot of boxes nutritionally. I think that the fretting over lack of protein is 90% horsesh*t as long as you are eating a lot, which I imagine you are since you train as much as you do. Especially as an endurance athlete, we are supposed to be lean!

The only real downside I feel is I have to monitor my ferritin levels a little closer, but if you are making a switch like this I recommend testing your blood anyway.

[Mikej]

I'm toying with the idea of trying a plant-based diet. Its going to be a rough transition because I love sushi, fish, and the occasional steak. It all started with reading this book: How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Y7USB14/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

Since I race both road and gravel, I'm wondering how this type of diet would work for intensive training, especially long distance training. At this point in the season I'm doing at least one 100mi training ride...so typically I'm downing a lot of carbs during the ride to keep going. I do several one hour FTP based interval sessions, and a couple other 1-3 hour rides. So anywhere from 12-16 hours per week training. I realize the general health benefits or a plant based diet are extensive, but I have some questions for any of you cyclists with experience on this diet or those versed in the theory of diet & exercise....especially if you race or do intensive training.

- Are there any negative impacts on racing performance, FTP, endurance, etc with this kind of diet?

-What are your general experiences in terms of health, mental/emotional state, sleep quality, etc?

-What are your experiences and/or suggestions for transitioning from a traditional semi-healthy yet the occasional splurge meat n' taters diet?

- How about recovery? Any impacts on recovery?

- Recovery nutrition - if animal based protein is out, what is a good substitute?

- What high carb foods work well for energy during a ride or race?

Anyway, this would rule out most mass market sport nutrition products I guess...probably a good thing -it'll definitely save some money!

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts. You all have immense knowledge and I really appreciate the time you take to share it.

So, hows about letting us in on these "how not to die" foods?

[JimmyTango]

- Are there any negative impacts on racing performance, FTP, endurance, etc with this kind of diet?

-What are your general experiences in terms of health, mental/emotional state, sleep quality, etc?

-What are your experiences and/or suggestions for transitioning from a traditional semi-healthy yet the occasional splurge meat n' taters diet?

- How about recovery? Any impacts on recovery?

- Recovery nutrition - if animal based protein is out, what is a good substitute?

- What high carb foods work well for energy during a ride or race?

Anyway, this would rule out most mass market sport nutrition products I guess...probably a good thing -it'll definitely save some money!

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts. You all have immense knowledge and I really appreciate the time you take to share it.

To address your questions in order:

- No, no inherent negative impacts on cycling performance from a plant based diet. Just be sure to take a vitamin b12 supplement and eat more than just Oreos and you'll probably see a bump in performance.

- My experiences are that my overall health improved. Sleeping/ mood/ emotional state all as good or better than before for me. My digestion and blood cholesterol levels both improved markedly.

- I feel pretty strongly (based on my own experiences) that there is a pretty drastic difference, both metabolically and behaviorally, between vegan and non-vegan eating that is well served by a full transition for a few months just to catch your stride. I found that the transition from fat and protein as primary calorie sources to carbs required a pretty different take on meal planning-- namely just adjusting to eating bigger portions and eating more often-- was the biggest adjustment my wife and I had to make. Now that we are used to the new structure of meals that vegan meals take on we "cheat" with salmon or eggs occasionally. You will probably find that once you have "transitioned" you will miss animal foods less than you think and don't have to think much about "cheating" strategies... you just eat what you want on the rare occasion that you feel the need for meat or dairy.

- If anything recovery is easier because you are geared towards pounding loads of high-quality carbs. Add a pea-protein powder and you're golden. Also, its worth pointing out that the added volume of veg packs your body with micro-nutrients which can't hurt.

- There are many plant based recovery specific products. I think real food is the best recovery nutrition, but if you want to supplement there are tons of options. Vega makes my favorite bars and shakes.

- You'd be surprised. Most in-race foods are plant based. Gel/ Goo/ drink mixes/ pb&j/ bananas/ and whole dates are my go-to options. BOBO's oat bars are also amazing.

[jdhansen63]

I'm new to the Vegan thing and have struggled to get the training/nutrition part nailed down. I just eat lots of sweet potatoes which has worked ok, but is not perfect. These podcasts really helped me when I started this change:

https://www.tfflifestyle.com/about/podcasts/
https://www.sonyalooney.com/podcasts/

Also, there are plenty of vegan ride options. These are great.
https://vafels.com/
Clif products which are also vegan friendly.

I decided to try it out ~10 months ago after a crash that left me with a torn scaphoid-lunate. To date, I've dropped 30lbs (180 to 150 @5'9") and gained ~10W FTP (255-265) and feel better than I have in my adult live. As was previously stated, it's hard at first to get used to the volume of food you need to eat which can cause a rapid drop in weight and power.

[ptourkin]

Going on 15 years vegan now. I'm wary of the "vegan miracle" claims a la What the Health, etc... but you can be an elite athlete on a plant based diet just as you can be one on the paleo diet.

Regarding weight loss, big losses at the beginning are the norm regardless of diet. Any time you are conscious of your intake, you will see improvement.

Regarding lack of energy, most complaints of this are eventually traced back to overestimating your caloric intake. A lot of new vegan athletes start out thinking they are taking in more calories than they actually are because the caloric density isn't there with what they are eating. Chart it out for a few days and check. Don't worry about macros - the protein is there. Just make sure you are getting enough calories.

I know it's not the emphasis here, but the primary proven upside of a vegan lifestyle is for the animals. Any gains it makes for personal health are a bonus.

[JimmyTango]

.

[Mark McM]

I know it's not the emphasis here, but the primary proven upside of a vegan lifestyle is for the animals. Any gains it makes for personal health are a bonus.

Well, also for the environment. Raising animals for food has a much higher environmental cost (in many resources, including land use/misuse, energy use, waste production, etc.) than raising plants for food.

[redir]

I cannot answer any of your questions but I can say that one of the baddest bike racers I know and suffered with in races was vegan. Good luck.

[verbs4us]

Some observations embedded below, based on a ~30 years of experience as a vegan, and about 5 of those as a USCF Cat 3 (that's how long ago it was, the good old USCF, RIP). One thing to keep in mind: everyone is different. You need to figure out what works for you. I can report only what works for me, as a perspective and sampling of 1.

I'm toying with the idea of trying a plant-based diet. Its going to be a rough transition because I love sushi, fish, and the occasional steak. It all started with reading this book: How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Y7USB14/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)

Since I race both road and gravel, I'm wondering how this type of diet would work for intensive training, especially long distance training. At this point in the season I'm doing at least one 100mi training ride...so typically I'm downing a lot of carbs during the ride to keep going. I do several one hour FTP based interval sessions, and a couple other 1-3 hour rides. So anywhere from 12-16 hours per week training. I realize the general health benefits or a plant based diet are extensive, but I have some questions for any of you cyclists with experience on this diet or those versed in the theory of diet & exercise....especially if you race or do intensive training.

- Are there any negative impacts on racing performance, FTP, endurance, etc with this kind of diet? If vegan=low fat, then I find I need to eat more often than my buds who had say, a croissant and bacon for breakfast, when I had oatmeal. Fat slows stomach emptying, so I find I get hungrier earlier and have to eat more small portions on a ride.

-What are your general experiences in terms of health, mental/emotional state, sleep quality, etc? Sleep quality is better. Eye goo in the morning disappeared; nasal and ear congestion went away; seasonal asthma dramatically reduced.

-What are your experiences and/or suggestions for transitioning from a traditional semi-healthy yet the occasional splurge meat n' taters diet? Again, everyone has their own clock for how to manage change. Some need to go cold turkey; some transition over time. I do believe it is easier for most people to change their religion than change their diet.

- How about recovery? Any impacts on recovery? Probably the same.

- Recovery nutrition - if animal based protein is out, what is a good substitute? The RDA/MDR requirements for protein are brought to you courtesy of the meat/dairy lobbies, so they are likely higher than if they were brought to you by, say, the American College of Cardiology. As I rule, I find if I get enough calories and eat diversely enough, I get enough protein. More than half the human population on earth gets protein from beans, which we in the West see as a side dish. The issue is more enough calcium and B12, which you can get in fortified foods

- What high carb foods work well for energy during a ride or race? A baked potato is a miracle food on a ride and in the winter, keeps you "twice warm." Also a fan of Fig Newtons, Clif bars.

[John H.]

Wayne,

What are you looking to get out of the diet?

Do you need to lose weight/bodyfat?

Are you looking for something that improves your ability through better nutrition?

Or more looking to improve health though better eating and giving up meat and dairy?

All are valid reasons.

What gets difficult is if you are trying to eat high fat/low carb and then train a lot (and train intensity).
This is difficult because everyone is a case study of one and you have to be willing to experiment to find out what level of carbs you need in order to train, race and recover at a high level.

1st step is some reading/education-
2nd step might be getting crap and processed food out of your diet (even before you make a 100% decision on meat, dairy, eggs, etc.)
3rd step is shifting over to high fat/low carb. Biggest mistake that many make is to not eat enough calories and enough fat.

[Wayne77]

Such a wealth of great information here...I've read every word. Sincere thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and knowledge!

John H. to answer your questions, I am looking for some weight loss but I would view that as a side benefit. I am currently 5'11 172 lbs, 46 years old. I'm pretty lean other than about 5-10 lbs of fat I can't seem to loose around my mid section. Probably a little more upper body muscle mass than is desirable for a cyclist but I like it. Ideally I'd like to race closer to 165 lbs. I certainly don't want my FTP to go down drastically (right around 300W), but it sounds like there is a bit of a hit initially

The primary reasons are for long-term health & mental/emotional well-being. If my cycling performance goes up, that's a bonus. My wife and I are both seeing our parents go through some very tough medical challenges (Alzheimer's for one parent, persistent infections that never seem to go away for another, and stroke induced dementia for another). Several ER visits this year. Its been a real rollercoaster and wake-up call.

Whether or not any of those issues relate to a lifetime of typical 'American' style eating, not enough exercise or other factors, we still want to take steps now to ward off that kind of thing later on. Its been a real drain on our family and we absolutely don't want to present the same drain on our kids when we are old.

[stien]

Don't worry about macros - the protein is there. Just make sure you are getting enough calories.


This needs to stand alone for all to see. It's a big one.

[Wayne77]

snipped:

1st step is some reading/education-
2nd step might be getting crap and processed food out of your diet (even before you make a 100% decision on meat, dairy, eggs, etc.)
3rd step is shifting over to high fat/low carb. Biggest mistake that many make is to not eat enough calories and enough fat.

This is an approach that totally makes sense to me. Very helpful laid out that way. Thanks!

[John H.]

Any of these are good for starting points-
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0983490708/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1472135695/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0983490716/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1




snipped:



This is an approach that totally makes sense to me. Very helpful laid out that way. Thanks!

[mdeth1313]

Awhile back there was coverage of an NFL lineman who went either vegan or vegetarian (can't remember which). He said he got much of his protein from nuts and beans. Slimmed down a bit, but he said overall it made a huge difference in his on-field performance.

[Seramount]

tried a strictly vegetarian diet for about 7 months...was miserable the entire time. would never entertain the idea of being a vegan.

since I've never been concerned with weight issues (6' 150 lbs) so, just focusing on 'quality' items from across the food spectrum works better for me.

a moderate amount of animal-based protein, organic veggies/fruits, gluten-free items, etc...

feel good, look good, and enjoy my meals.

[cachagua]

An entirely plant based diet, while possible for humans, is not natural. Humans also evolved based around cooking their food to release nutrients - so an entirely raw foods diet is unnatural as well.


"Natural" is a completely spurious argument. It's widely contested in discussions about this subject, but it's a portmanteau containing nothing but hidden prejudices. It doesn't lead to anything useful, and I'm happy to see it hasn't progressed any further in our conversation here.

The meaningful question is whether a plant-based diet produces results you're happy with.

[Hellgate]

I had an herb buttered flank steak in y'all's honor. Burp...

[daker13]

I had an herb buttered flank steak in y'all's honor. Burp...

It's truly amazing that any time vegetarianism or veganism comes up on the internet, someone has to make the same idiotic joke. I was actually surprised when I looked at this thread earlier that it had gotten to 11 posts and no one had yet referenced a recent steak, hamburger, etc.

[Hellgate]

It's truly amazing that any time vegetarianism or veganism comes up on the internet, someone has to make the same idiotic joke. I was actually surprised when I looked at this thread earlier that it had gotten to 11 posts and no one had yet referenced a recent steak, hamburger, etc.Someone has to go first.

Sensitive much?

[Llewellyn]

It's truly amazing that any time vegetarianism or veganism comes up on the internet, someone has to make the same idiotic joke. I was actually surprised when I looked at this thread earlier that it had gotten to 11 posts and no one had yet referenced a recent steak, hamburger, etc.

Yep, there's one on every bus............

[Tavarez]

I will chime in again just to say that I am also impressed with the discourse in this thread. I was expecting perpetuation of the evolutionary argument with a "vegans talk about being vegan a lot" joke thrown in. Instead we have smart recommendations without any polestar diet declarations.

[R3awak3n]

I have no answers for you but I did plant based for 3 months and it was great. I lost a ton of weight without even trying and felt damn good for the most part

[daker13]

Someone has to go first.

Sensitive much?

The OP asked a question, and explained that he was asking because of some pretty serious health issues in his family.

Congrats on a real RBR-level post, chief.

[Hellgate]

The OP asked a question, and explained that he was asking because of some pretty serious health issues in his family.

Congrats on a real RBR-level post, chief.Roger out!

Joke much? This is a bicycle forum in the internet after all.

Oh, and I was never a Chief, I was a Sergeant Major.

[jtakeda]

Such a wealth of great information here...I've read every word. Sincere thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and knowledge!

John H. to answer your questions, I am looking for some weight loss but I would view that as a side benefit. I am currently 5'11 172 lbs, 46 years old. I'm pretty lean other than about 5-10 lbs of fat I can't seem to loose around my mid section. Probably a little more upper body muscle mass than is desirable for a cyclist but I like it. Ideally I'd like to race closer to 165 lbs. I certainly don't want my FTP to go down drastically (right around 300W), but it sounds like there is a bit of a hit initially

The primary reasons are for long-term health & mental/emotional well-being. If my cycling performance goes up, that's a bonus. My wife and I are both seeing our parents go through some very tough medical challenges (Alzheimer's for one parent, persistent infections that never seem to go away for another, and stroke induced dementia for another). Several ER visits this year. Its been a real rollercoaster and wake-up call.

Whether or not any of those issues relate to a lifetime of typical 'American' style eating, not enough exercise or other factors, we still want to take steps now to ward off that kind of thing later on. Its been a real drain on our family and we absolutely don't want to present the same drain on our kids when we are old.

Wow. You’ve got a lot on your plate.

I’m not vegan but my girlfriend is finishing up her third year of medical school and we talk about nutrition a lot.

FWIW I’ve got to agree with the vegans above. As a society we eat wayyy too much meat than is required by our diet. At our house we will eat meat maybe once a week but probably closer to 1.5x every 2 weeks.

If you eat the appropriate amount of meat and eat the right meat you can achieve the goals you listed above. But on top of that sugar intake and sodium intake are extremely important to reduce risk of heart disease.

Proper hydration is always key.

I think going vegan is a great option but it’s not for all. It’s also important to realize that you can be vegan and unhealthy if you eat too much sodium or don’t balance your diet properly.
Ps. Heart disease can also be largely affected by genetics. So one persons diet won’t work for another. It’s aboit finding what works for you and your family and doing it well and hopefully sustainably

[xnetter]

Well, also for the environment. Raising animals for food has a much higher environmental cost (in many resources, including land use/misuse, energy use, waste production, etc.) than raising plants for food.

Animal welfare and the environment brought me to vegetarianism years ago. Modern industrial agriculture is a horror show and the world's top greenhouse gas emitter. Granted I still crave meat from time to time, but I've fully moved past it.

I'm not a real athlete and don't track anything nutrition-wise, but I do feel just fine without much in the way of animal-based diet. Quite a few athletes are now switching to vegan diets so saying it can't be done or that it's not conducive to performing at a high level is simply not true.

Try it out - it gets easier with practice.

KJ

[mtechnica]

Oh man you'd want to talk to my vegan girlfriend about this since she's a really good cyclist. I try to follow a vegan diet but don't.

Basically the main thing is to avoid the things that cause cancer and don't help performance like cheese and dairy (good luck with that). Might as well stop drinking too if you can.

There are plenty of macronutrient (protein) replacements like tempeh, soy, tofu, beans, etc... if you can stand to eat them. There are lots of cookbooks out there I'd try. Try the tempeh.

Look into vitamin supplements.

I'm convinced you can have a plant based diet and be a top notch cyclist. It just takes more dedication. It's REALLY easy to fall off the wagon.

[Louis]

I've been a vegetarian (and mostly vegan) for ages, for the same reasons others have mentioned above - I want to minimize the amount of animal unhappiness and/or killing done for me, and reduce the overall environmental impact of the stuff I buy.

It's really been a non-issue as far as it's effect on my exercising (lately I've been doing a lot more rowing and gym work than cycling). Beyond that, at a much higher level than little ol' me, there are elite vegetarian and vegan athletes in practically every sporting endeavor you can think of, and from what I've read they don't think that their diet has held them back.

Good luck to the OP.

[eBAUMANN]

i converted to a vegetarian diet a year ago and havent noticed any negative difference whatsoever in my abilities on a bike.

very happy with the decision and have no intentions of going back to eating meat anytime soon, i dont miss it...at all.

fwiw, the "how not to die" cookbook is a pretty excellent place to start if youre curious about how good/easy vegetarian cooking can be.

[ptourkin]

It's truly amazing that any time vegetarianism or veganism comes up on the internet, someone has to make the same idiotic joke. I was actually surprised when I looked at this thread earlier that it had gotten to 11 posts and no one had yet referenced a recent steak, hamburger, etc.

Same. I was surprised it took that long although elsewhere on the internet,it seems to be 2018 lately

[Wayne77]

you guys are all so awesome...this thread is immensely helpful. Also, this isn't directed at any one person but hey lets keep it positive. No need to mock people that are into this sort of diet. We all share a common passion and I'm sure if we were all in the same room with drinks we'd all be chilling and smilling. Cool?

[Wayne77]

i converted to a vegetarian diet a year ago and havent noticed any negative difference whatsoever in my abilities on a bike.

very happy with the decision and have no intentions of going back to eating meat anytime soon, i dont miss it...at all.

fwiw, the "how not to die" cookbook is a pretty excellent place to start if youre curious about how good/easy vegetarian cooking can be.

I have said cookbook and can echo that. Its one of the best cookbooks we have. The dishes are amazingly tasty, beautiful pictures, and it takes it a step further with lots of good advice on getting started, building an inventory of the basics, etc.

[pdonk]

A couple of questions, based on my own meat eating habits and body.

1) What about iron? If I don't have enough iron in a day i get really dopey/feel ill. I have tried the typical veg options (beans, kale, etc..) and still have issues with how I feel.

2) What about if you have issues digesting things such as pea and other bean proteins?

In my house we eat a mixed diet of meat, fish, veg with a few veg dominant/no meat meals a week, but based on the above I don't think I could go veg or vegan. We also focus on purchasing from smaller farms and where feasible organic/no hormone antibiotic. Having worked on farms as a kid, I've seen the inside of the industry and at least in my experience on a small family farm the animals were well cared for and treated "well" up to the point they left the farm.

Living in a neighbourhood being branded "vegandale" by outsiders, this topic has greater issues than just food....

[JimmyTango]

A couple of questions, based on my own meat eating habits and body.

1) What about iron? If I don't have enough iron in a day i get really dopey/feel ill. I have tried the typical veg options (beans, kale, etc..) and still have issues with how I feel.

2) What about if you have issues digesting things such as pea and other bean proteins?

In my house we eat a mixed diet of meat, fish, veg with a few veg dominant/no meat meals a week, but based on the above I don't think I could go veg or vegan. We also focus on purchasing from smaller farms and where feasible organic/no hormone antibiotic. Having worked on farms as a kid, I've seen the inside of the industry and at least in my experience on a small family farm the animals were well cared for and treated "well" up to the point they left the farm.

Living in a neighbourhood being branded "vegandale" by outsiders, this topic has greater issues than just food....

1) My wife and I get a ton of iron on our vegan diets without even making an effort to do so. Most of our meals involve heaps of leafy greens or beans/ lentils, but a quick google search shows that quinoa and pumpkin seeds are also iron rich so those are other plant based options. Oh, and probably biggest of all is that we cook most meals in a cast iron skillet, which probably does a lot on the iron front.

We just had our first baby, and all throughout the pregnancy our midwives made a point to keep an eye on my wife's blood iron levels (they know she is vegan). At all three checks my wife had the highest hemoglobin of any of the families that were concurrently under the midwives care (we were the only vegans).

2) I don't know-- do you mean getting gassy?? We have always eaten a ton of lentils and beans (even before eating vegetarian), and while I will say farting is a regular part of life for us, as long as you drink enough water to keep all that fiber moving it is actually easier on digestion than meat and dairy (especially dairy). Also, FWIW, pea protein powder seems to be free of any bloaty consequences for us. I think it is the starches and fiber in peas that cause gas, and the protein powder has those removed so it should be no problem for you.

And although I don't eat them regularly, I think locally raised eggs and wild caught fish (along with a few other choice animal products that are obviously produced humanely, like venison from hunter friends) are totally valid and thoughtful options for those not into 100% plant based eating all of the time.

[Mark McM]

"Natural" is a completely spurious argument. It's widely contested in discussions about this subject, but it's a portmanteau containing nothing but hidden prejudices. It doesn't lead to anything useful, and I'm happy to see it hasn't progressed any further in our conversation here.

The meaningful question is whether a plant-based diet produces results you're happy with.

You zeroed in on the word "natural" and missed the important part - an entirely plant based diet is not what the human body is evolved for. Just like a ruminant is evolved for a high cellulose plant based diet, and a carnivore is evolved for an almost entirely meat based diet, humans were evolved to be omnivores, and can (and do) derive important nutrients from animal sources. Many paleontologists believe that the eating of meat (and the evolutionary changes required to acquire, prepare, and digest meat) was an important step in our ancestors becoming human.

[Tony]

I posted this awhile back. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=208603

I'm now mostly 95% vegetarian and only use animal protein on occasion as a seasoning. I wish I made this move sooner.

[cachagua]

You zeroed in on the word "natural" and missed the important part - an entirely plant based diet is not what the human body is evolved for.


No thank you, didn't miss that, just noted that it is, in fact, anything but the important part. Here's another illustration: how well an internal combustion engine runs on nitromethane is not connected in any way to the fact that such engines "evolved" (not the same use of the term, but you know what I mean) to run on gasoline.

What I'm trying to point out is that today we have dietary choices, and insight into their results, that render moot the process or sequence of how we got to where we are. It doesn't matter that mumblety-mumble million years ago our ancestors left the trees for the savannah; what matters is, right this minute, we have the metabolism we have, and what are we going to fuel it with? That question can be answered without reference to hypotheses about evolutionary development, and therefore those arguments don't belong in the conversation.

To say this or that is the "natural" human diet makes as little sense (to put it in terms we can all recognize) as to say that bikes evolved to use Campy parts, and that makes it unnatural to put Shimano on them. Even if that were 100% factual, it wouldn't matter.

[Mark McM]

No thank you, didn't miss that, just noted that it is, in fact, anything but the important part. Here's another illustration: how well an internal combustion engine runs on nitromethane is not connected in any way to the fact that such engines "evolved" (not the same use of the term, but you know what I mean) to run on gasoline.

Your conclusion is false because it is based on a poor analogy. While a gasoline engine and a nitromethane engine do operate on similar principles (Otto cycle internal combustion), you can't simply replace one fuel with the other. The air/fuel ratios are different, the ideal compression ratios are different, the valve and ignition timings are different. If you took an engine tuned (evolved) for one fuel and tried to run it with a different fuel, it would run very badly, if at all. Similarly, a cow and a lion both have stomachs, intestines, colons, livers, pancreases, etc, but if you fed a cow an all meat diet, and fed a lion an all grass diet, they both suffer severe health and performance affects.

What I'm trying to point out is that today we have dietary choices, and insight into their results, that render moot the process or sequence of how we got to where we are. It doesn't matter that mumblety-mumble million years ago our ancestors left the trees for the savannah; what matters is, right this minute, we have the metabolism we have, and what are we going to fuel it with? That question can be answered without reference to hypotheses about evolutionary development, and therefore those arguments don't belong in the conversation.

Humans are omnivores, and with proper selection of different food types and quantities, they can get by with an all plant diet. But that doesn't mean that it is the ideal and most efficient diet (from the human health and performance point of view). Sadly, nutrition science is not as well advanced as many believe it to be, so the further one deviates from the diet that humans evolved for, the greater risk there is for things to go wrong.

[jtakeda]

No thank you, didn't miss that, just noted that it is, in fact, anything but the important part. Here's another illustration: how well an internal combustion engine runs on nitromethane is not connected in any way to the fact that such engines "evolved" (not the same use of the term, but you know what I mean) to run on gasoline.

What I'm trying to point out is that today we have dietary choices, and insight into their results, that render moot the process or sequence of how we got to where we are. It doesn't matter that mumblety-mumble million years ago our ancestors left the trees for the savannah; what matters is, right this minute, we have the metabolism we have, and what are we going to fuel it with? That question can be answered without reference to hypotheses about evolutionary development, and therefore those arguments don't belong in the conversation.

To say this or that is the "natural" human diet makes as little sense (to put it in terms we can all recognize) as to say that bikes evolved to use Campy parts, and that makes it unnatural to put Shimano on them. Even if that were 100% factual, it wouldn't matter.

+1
we’re also not evolved to drive around in metal boxes and living in high rises while staring at a glowing rectangle all day but we don’t question that

I think youre most likely to harm your body by getting hit by a car or getting cancer from a toxic environment then you are from eating a vegan diet. Just my opinion though

[ptourkin]

Your conclusion is false because it is based on a poor analogy. While a gasoline engine and a nitromethane engine do operate on similar principles (Otto cycle internal combustion), you can't simply replace one fuel with the other. The air/fuel ratios are different, the ideal compression ratios are different, the valve and ignition timings are different. If you took an engine tuned (evolved) for one fuel and tried to run it with a different fuel, it would run very badly, if at all. Similarly, a cow and a lion both have stomachs, intestines, colons, livers, pancreases, etc, but if you fed a cow an all meat diet, and fed a lion an all grass diet, they both suffer severe health and performance affects.



Humans are omnivores, and with proper selection of different food types and quantities, they can get by with an all plant diet. But that doesn't mean that it is the ideal and most efficient diet (from the human health and performance point of view). Sadly, nutrition science is not as well advanced as many believe it to be, so the further one deviates from the diet that humans evolved for, the greater risk there is for things to go wrong.

Your bad take would be more credible with citations. Without them, it is just an opinion without basis.

[Mark McM]

Your bad take would be more credible with citations. Without them, it is just an opinion without basis.

Citations about what part? Gasoline engines running poorly on nitromethanol? Lions doing poorly on a plant based diet? Or humans evolving on a mixed plant/meat diet? There's plenty of information on all of these.

Since there is a huge amount of evidence about humans evolving around a mixed plant/animal based diet over millions of years, and since veganism is a relatively new phenomenon (on the greater human timeline), it is the idea the veganism as the ideal diet that requires supporting evidence to be more than opinion.

[cachagua]

Your conclusion is false...

And, which conclusion was that?



Nutrition science is not as well advanced as many believe it to be, so the further one deviates from the diet that humans evolved for, the greater risk there is for things to go wrong.

Nutrition science is plenty advanced enough for us to reliably guide our choices of what to eat. This is partly because it can be subjected to real-world, real-time testing. It is, at any rate, the best basis we currently have for such choices. Choosing your diet on the basis of evolutionary biology would be, by comparison, a rather dogmatic approach -- just as dogmatic as to say "Bikes evolved to fit Campy!" Basing your thinking on an unvarying rule like that doesn't give you much adaptability to what you may learn by experiment.

"Conclusion", above -- I wonder if you think I'm arguing for or against this or that diet? I am not. I'm suggesting that giving undue weight to a factor with little relevance is unproductive in this (or any) inquiry.

[xnetter]

Humans are omnivores, and with proper selection of different food types and quantities, they can get by with an all plant diet. But that doesn't mean that it is the ideal and most efficient diet (from the human health and performance point of view). Sadly, nutrition science is not as well advanced as many believe it to be, so the further one deviates from the diet that humans evolved for, the greater risk there is for things to go wrong.

I think the human race is a lot more adaptable than you are giving us credit for! If a person can (technically) stay alive eating McDonald's and pop tarts everyday, I think cutting out animal products is a perfectly reasonable if not straight-up healthier option.

Just don't trot out that age-old "well why do we have canine teeth if we're not meant to eat meat" morass :p

KJ

[redir]

Most of the chicken, pork and fish I buy is from my local farmers market and is all within 100 miles of where I live. It's way more expensive but then you eat less of it too, and frankly it's a lot better I think. Going vegetarian for environmental reasons is a noble cause but there are other ways too for those of us who can afford it and have access to it.

[Mark McM]

And, which conclusion was that?

The conclusion that re-tuning the human "engine" is as simple as re-tuning an internal combustion engine. An internal combustion engine can not use a different kind of fuel without being re-adjusted. And even then, there are plenty of unintended consequences - for example, methanol is a highly corrosive to many metals, so simply re-tuning a gasoline engine to use methanol may not be a solution, as the methanol may attack many of the engine parts that were perfectly compatible with gasoline. While a human may be able to adapt to some degree to different diets, they are hardly as adaptable as internal combustion engines.

Do you believe that a lion would be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet? You might be able to derive the various nutrients required for a lion solely from plant sources, but it would likely take quite a lot of processing to get it lion ready, so much so that the food wouldn't at all resemble the original plants it came from.





[QUOTE=cachagua;2400338]Nutrition science is plenty advanced enough for us to reliably guide our choices of what to eat. This is partly because it can be subjected to real-world, real-time testing. It is, at any rate, the best basis we currently have for such choices. Choosing your diet on the basis of evolutionary biology would be, by comparison, a rather dogmatic approach -- just as dogmatic as to say "Bikes evolved to fit Campy!" Basing your thinking on an unvarying rule like that doesn't give you much adaptability to what you may learn by experiment.

I think you'd be surprised at how loose a science nutrition is. Unlike, say, physics or chemistry, most of it is not based on controlled experiment, but on observational studies (much like other "soft" sciences like psychology). While the primary nutrients are well known, there is still much unknown about micro-nutrients. And the nutritional supplement industry is not helping matters much, as the nutritional claims of many supplements are nothing but hucksterism. Even disregarding supplements, there is a new "diet" out every week, each claiming to be backed by "science", but is really just backed by wild guesses.

"Conclusion", above -- I wonder if you think I'm arguing for or against this or that diet? I am not. I'm suggesting that giving undue weight to a factor with little relevance is unproductive in this (or any) inquiry.

My point is simply this - nutrition is currently not an exact science, and converting to an entirely plant based diet is largely an experiment. I say "experiment", because it is different from what has been the "normal" diet of the last hundred thousand years or so. Everybody's dietary needs are different, and artificially excluding some food products may in some cases be good for health, but in other cases may be bad for health. You can't naturally (there's the word again!) assume that a purely plant based diet will be best for everybody.

[JimmyTango]

I think this thread was serving the OP (and the rest of the paceline for that matter) when it was about our real-world expierences with eating a plant based diet.

Why are you guys arguing about whether or not a vegan diet is a real thing? It is a real thing. People all over the world are happy and healthy eating a plant based diet, so there is no real argument whether or not the OP's questions are valid. Of course many humans thrive eating animal derived foods too, but that doesn't really have anything to do with a discussion about the positives and negatives of going vegan while being a competitive cyclist.

Vegans, please keep this positive and focus on the ways our lives have been improved by ditching meat.

Non-Vegans, we believe you! There is no doubt that humans can eat meat and still be happy and healthy people. We are not here to judge you so please don't bash us for being happy and healthy by being vegan/ vegetarian.

:beer::beer::beer:

[Tavarez]

As humans we can eat meat and plants. We, fortunately, can pick lots of different ways to eat. Go into any grocery store and you'll see walls of fresh produce and grains and nuts. You can pick from several different kinds of meat and fish and whatever you desire! This is a stark shift from the Paleozoic era when they would eat whatever they could to survive. And we adapted from that.

I think plants are better for you and that an all-plant diet is also healthy. You can disagree and think we would all be better off eating some mutton chops or whatever the hell. I found the diet to be beneficial to my endurance performance and I think the OP might as well. But if he does not, that's okay too.

[ptourkin]

[QUOTE=cachagua;2400338]And, which conclusion was that?

The conclusion that re-tuning the human "engine" is as simple as re-tuning an internal combustion engine. An internal combustion engine can not use a different kind of fuel without being re-adjusted. And even then, there are plenty of unintended consequences - for example, methanol is a highly corrosive to many metals, so simply re-tuning a gasoline engine to use methanol may not be a solution, as the methanol may attack many of the engine parts that were perfectly compatible with gasoline. While a human may be able to adapt to some degree to different diets, they are hardly as adaptable as internal combustion engines.

Do you believe that a lion would be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet? You might be able to derive the various nutrients required for a lion solely from plant sources, but it would likely take quite a lot of processing to get it lion ready, so much so that the food wouldn't at all resemble the original plants it came from.







I think you'd be surprised at how loose a science nutrition is. Unlike, say, physics or chemistry, most of it is not based on controlled experiment, but on observational studies (much like other "soft" sciences like psychology). While the primary nutrients are well known, there is still much unknown about micro-nutrients. And the nutritional supplement industry is not helping matters much, as the nutritional claims of many supplements are nothing but hucksterism. Even disregarding supplements, there is a new "diet" out every week, each claiming to be backed by "science", but is really just backed by wild guesses.



My point is simply this - nutrition is currently not an exact science, and converting to an entirely plant based diet is largely an experiment. I say "experiment", because it is different from what has been the "normal" diet of the last hundred thousand years or so. Everybody's dietary needs are different, and artificially excluding some food products may in some cases be good for health, but in other cases may be bad for health. You can't naturally (there's the word again!) assume that a purely plant based diet will be best for everybody.

1. We aren't lions.
2. The amount of meat that people now consume is also an "experiment" by your logic and is certainly not a historically "normal" diet. Many pre-modern cultures subsisted on almost no meat and certainly no dairy and absolutely certainly not as a component of every single meal.
3. You still haven't provided any citations. There is a plethora of current research that shows that a plant-based diet is perfectly healthy and reasonable. It's new and scary to you, but not to everyone.
4. You are just making things up.

[HenryA]

I’m in the camp of removing the really bad items from the diet and then working from there. Generally remove or greatly reduce sugar and processed foods. Then try eating vegetarian for a while and see how it fits. I tried it for a few years and liked most of it but had a hard time making gains in performance. Added in some fish and meat on several days a week and immediately perked up and got stronger and faster. Your experience will likely vary.

I’ll also say that being righteous about your eating habits, whatever they are, is often off-putting to others. But then when you are always right and virtuous about -anything- its not so much fun for others to have that put on constant display.

[cachagua]

Which conclusion was that?

The conclusion that re-tuning the human "engine" is as simple as re-tuning an internal combustion engine.

Never concluded any such thing. My car-engine analogy was meant as an illustration of the mistaken thinking I'm condemning, not an assertion that you can feed a car or a human anything you think of. Re-read: "how well an internal combustion engine runs on nitromethane is not connected in any way to the fact that such engines "evolved" to run on gasoline."

Do you believe that a lion would be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet?

Not my area of expertise, but I'd say a lion ought to eat whatever's best for a lion. However the way to find that out is not to say "Well, give it whatever it's been having all this time -- look, it's alive, so obviously that must be best".

You'd be surprised at how loose a science nutrition is.

Not necessarily an argument against it. Astronomy was fairly loose when it realized the geocentric solar system was impossible. If nutritionists can't specify every step in every metabolic pathway in your whole organism, there's still enough established fact to provide better guidance than tradition offers.

The nutritional supplement industry is not helping matters much, as the nutritional claims of many supplements are nothing but hucksterism. Even disregarding supplements, there is a new "diet" out every week, each claiming to be backed by "science", but is really just backed by wild guesses.

If you think that's nutrition science, then -- eat up! Let's not equate the serious research that's going on, and the back pages of the National Enquirer.

Converting to an entirely plant based diet is largely an experiment.

Very well, let it be an experiment -- it's still better than saying "Eating (X, Y, or Z) is what Charles Darwin MEANT for us to do, and that settles it!" An experiment provides data that can guide future choices. Dogma never does.

Artificially excluding some food products may in some cases be good for health, but in other cases may be bad for health. You can't naturally assume that a purely plant based diet will be best for everybody.

No. That's right. Not assuming is exactly what I'm advocating. Assuming that a few hundred thousand years of evolution have resulted in humans eating exactly what's best for them is as ill-advised as assuming anything else. Observing, hypothesizing, and experimenting, gathering information as broadly as you can instead of figuring you have all the data there is, is the unique privilege of humans (as far as we know) -- so let's exercise our privilege, is all I'm suggesting.

[eBAUMANN]

cachagua, i like the cut of your jib.

personally, when it came down to it, the only thing in the meat "pro" column was "it tastes good," which made it a pretty easy decision.

sure, any diet can be done poorly/lazily (most notably the default "american diet" of processed garbage morning noon and night). i am INCLUDING a vegan diet in that statement...a lazy vegan is not a healthy vegan, unless they are loaded and have someone else cooking for them.

most people dont have the time/energy/$ to take on a vegetarian (or especially a vegan diet) in a HEALTHY way. to eat in such a way is a luxury, and might not be the best option for everyone because of that.

that said, some of the poorest countries on the planet have traditionally veggie-based diets...so maybe its just us americans who like to turn it (cooking) into some great endeavor.

anyways, ive never been happier about the food im putting into my body than i have been this past year. sure its not for everyone, but i really dont think it would hurt if we all ate a little less meat (the industry is killing our planet) and maybe took a minute to explore the wealth of alternatives that exist? no? too much?

[earlfoss]

people sure get cranky about diet stuff

[GonaSovereign]

that said, some of the poorest countries on the planet have traditionally veggie-based diets...so maybe its just us americans who like to turn it (cooking) into some great endeavor.


Boom! Exactly.
Cooking is easy. Eating healthy is easy.
Well, maybe it's hard if a person hasn't tried; hasn't invested an hour or two in learning a few basics.

It's so easy to cook delicious, healthy food. For kicks, I typed "Easy vegetarian recipes" into google and got 650 MILLION results. No lack of options there.

Seriously, if a person learned to cook a few tasty dishes, they'd impress the heck out of their spouse (or be more likely to acquire one) and they'll be healthier and richer for it b/c cooking costs less than having someone do it for you.

All this from an eater of mostly plant-based diets who has won bike races.

[pasadena]

The difficulty is simply the change.

Finding and keeping a new routine that works, requires some work.
For lasting change, I suggest just changing one thing at a time. Go slowly and have those steps take hold as part of your daily routine, then move to the next step.

There are a lot of vegan traps as well. A lot of processed foods, a lot of garbage.

If you like Asian or some Hispanic foods, it's a lot easier imo. The cooking is not dairy based. It's very easy to not eat meat or dairy and completely not miss it.

It took me a year to loose 8.5kg and it just happened, I wasn't tracking it.
I didn't loose any power on the bike and achieved my fastest times after.

I don't sweat it if I eat meat or dairy.

It's not a penalty/good/bad thought process.
It's just changing the way you think about food and not making a big deal of it.

[pdonk]

1)

2) I don't know-- do you mean getting gassy?? We have always eaten a ton of lentils and beans (even before eating vegetarian), and while I will say farting is a regular part of life for us, as long as you drink enough water to keep all that fiber moving it is actually easier on digestion than meat and dairy (especially dairy). Also, FWIW, pea protein powder seems to be free of any bloaty consequences for us. I think it is the starches and fiber in peas that cause gas, and the protein powder has those removed so it should be no problem for you.



Eating processed pea or bean protein stops me up. Farting I can handle, but a stomach that stops working and takes a few days to restart not so much.

Regular peas, beans, lentils, legumes are OK. We eat them at least once a week as part of our regular vegetable heavy meal or two.

[redir]

BTW I get a kick out of this. One of my friends wife is a vegetarian but every once in a while, like maybe once a year, she will eat bacon :D

I don't eat a lot of bacon but this time of year I love going out to the garden picking a ripe tomatoe and making a BLT.

Mostly though I just eat tomatoe and cheese sandwiches. I can imagine giving up the bacon but not the dairy, IDK how you guys do it.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE]Non-Vegans, we believe you! There is no doubt that humans can eat meat and still be happy and healthy people. We are not here to judge you so please don't bash us for being happy and healthy by being vegan/ vegetarian.

Maybe not you but these discussions turn into a 'you eat what? Are you NUTZ!!' every time they surface. :eek:

[eBAUMANN]

BTW I get a kick out of this. One of my friends wife is a vegetarian but every once in a while, like maybe once a year, she will eat bacon :D

I don't eat a lot of bacon but this time of year I love going out to the garden picking a ripe tomatoe and making a BLT.

Mostly though I just eat tomatoe and cheese sandwiches. I can imagine giving up the bacon but not the dairy, IDK how you guys do it.

Giving up bacon/bbq was way easier than I expected...WAY easier.
Dairy...almond milk is great, I prefer it to regular milk and the new non-dairy ben and jerry's ice cream is actually fantastic.
Pizza however, is why I couldnt be a vegan. There is no replacement for great cheese ;)



Maybe not you but these discussions turn into a 'you eat what? Are you NUTZ!!' every time they surface. :eek:

It really seems like its because people feel a need to defend their traditional love/eating-of meat despite the numerous environmental/nutritional/moral arguments against it. Its far easier to ignore and plow forward with the way youve always done something than to stop, reevaluate, and make a meaningful change in the way you live. I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, for a long time, until I wasn't.

[oldpotatoe]

Giving up bacon/bbq was way easier than I expected...WAY easier.
Dairy...almond milk is great, I prefer it to regular milk and the new non-dairy ben and jerry's ice cream is actually fantastic.
Pizza however, is why I couldnt be a vegan. There is no replacement for great cheese ;)



It really seems like its because people feel a need to defend their traditional love/eating-of meat despite the numerous environmental/nutritional/moral arguments against it. Its far easier to ignore and plow forward with the way youve always done something than to stop, reevaluate, and make a meaningful change in the way you live. I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, for a long time, until I wasn't.

And some feel the need to defend their choice because of “numerous environmental/nutritional/moral arguments against it”...works both ways.

[ptourkin]

And some feel the need to defend their choice because of “numerous environmental/nutritional/moral arguments against it”...works both ways.

Are there moral arguments for killing animals? Asking for a friend...

[Mark McM]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/pbox.php?url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2014/12/PEARLS1209.gif&w=1484&op=resize&opt=1&filter=antialias&t=20170517

[redir]

Well, I lived in a cabin in Indiana for an entire year and subsisted off the fish that I caught in the lake and the animals that we killed in the woods. Of course there was the occasional trip to the Wal Mart too, to be honest. We had a huge garden too.

The fact of the matter is that we are all animals. If you have ever watched a nature program then you certainly have seen a lion capture a gazelle or something like that. In my very environmentally conscience opinion me going out into the woods and killing a deer is the same thing. If I was ever to go vegetarian it would be for environmental reasons but as I mentioned before for those of us who have the luxury to afford it, it's also possible to be environmentally conscience and still eat meat.

The deer population in Virginia is out of control right now. So much so that in some places they use the police to cull them. They have no predators although some cats have been reported over the years. As such their populations grow and they suffer as a result of it. Nature and the animals that exist in it have always lived in balance and part of that balance is life and death.

So yes there are moral arguments for killing animals, one for food and nutrition and two for the sake of the animals themselves.

[Louis]

So I suppose vegetarian cyclists are the very best of all!

(or is it the worst?)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/pbox.php?url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2014/12/PEARLS1209.gif&w=1484&op=resize&opt=1&filter=antialias&t=20170517

[Jdg68]

For cookbooks I highly recommend My New Roots and Naturally Nourished by Sarah Britton.

https://www.mynewroots.org/site/

[classtimesailer]

You can check this out:https://www.adaptnetwork.com/veganadventurist/8-most-successful-vegan-runners-triathletes/

I'm plant based Whole Foods because it was a pain in the keister to shop for both an omnivore and vegan and then cook for two different animals. Easier for me to join my wife. When I was an omnivore a la Micheal Pollock, I never noticed any effects of a day without meat. Now that I am 98% vegan, I feel like sh;? after a meatbased meal-- as if I am suffering food poisoning.

I say go for it. Vegans can be weird but folk who eat a Whole Foods plant base diet are normal healthy people.

And if this link hasn't been posted in this thread https://nutritionfacts.org/

[Louis]

Now that I am 98% vegan, I feel like sh;? after a meatbased meal-- as if I am suffering food poisoning.

Might be due to tick-induced meat "allergy."

https://nyti.ms/2OegB1h

Meat allergy was first observed in the 1990s and formally described in 2009, which makes it a relatively recent arrival to the compendium of allergic conditions. Its most curious quality may be that it is seemingly triggered by a tick bite. In America, the culprit, called the lone-star tick — females have a distinctive white splotch on their backs — is common in the warm and humid Southeast, where most cases of meat allergy have been diagnosed. Niegelsky had in fact heard about the allergy from friends. He remembers shaking his head and thinking that it sounded “made up.” He understood now, in a visceral way, how real it was. That bite from a month ago had primed his body for today’s hives and plummeting blood pressure.

[HenryA]

Might be due to tick-induced meat "allergy."

https://nyti.ms/2OegB1h

Actually, I think its because of the slowness with which meat is digested compared to vegetables. Stuff that moves on through will leave you feeling lighter.

[oldpotatoe]

Are there moral arguments for killing animals? Asking for a friend...

A lion told me there were...

[classtimesailer]

Might be due to tick-induced meat "allergy."

Doubt it. I'm allergic to rotting animal flesh. But some of it tastes good and keeps me in touch with my neanderthalic ancestors. If you eat meat regularly, your gut can more easily deal with certain flesh eating microbes and all the other allowable "ingredients" in "meat". My gut has changed some with the change in my eating habits and I'm a little sensitive now BUT, I am not going to sell my Big Green Egg. I'll likely smoke a pork shoulder for Labor Day.

[ptourkin]

A lion told me there were...

So that's at least two of you who think they are lions. Cosplayers or furries?

[redir]

So that's at least two of you who think they are lions. Cosplayers or furries?

Rawr! =^,^=

[Wayne77]

I wanted to get back to this thread to provide my own experiences thus far. I switched to a plant based diet (making some exceptions here and there) 2.5 weeks ago. I have tried many times to shift to a much healthier way of eating. It was never really bad to begin with but I've always had a weakness for ice cream, cheese, and baked foods, pastry, breads, etc. Various thoughts below:

- Honestly the transition was not that difficult for me. I know that sounds crazy, Like I said I've tried so many times to eliminate sugar, processed foods, ice cream. I always do really well until late afternoon, then as my energy dips, my motivation dips as well (I have minor depression), mood plummets and suddenly I'm reaching for bad snacks, candy, etc as a coping mechanism.

-When I started (5'11", FTP = 280) I was 175 lbs. Now my weight has leveled off at 168 and I don't really want to loose more. Right now I just want to maintain that weight since I have a huge race in a week. What I do want to do is replace some remaining torso fat with leg muscle. So that should translate to a pretty good watt per kilo gain.

- The afternoon doldrums are gone! I'm much happier throughout the day, and I think one reason switching has been easier for me, is this diet has eliminated sugar cravings. Cravings for cheese, cold cuts, dressings, are gone, I seriously didn't have that 2 week white-knuckle phase that is so common with trying to eliminate sugar and processed foods.

- The first 2 weeks my weight dropped too fast. I lost 10 pounds, but my cycling performance definitely took a hit. Its because I wasn't consciously paying attention to the carbs and protein I really need. It almost feels like on my semi-unhealthy diet (using the fact that I race and burn tons of calories training as an excuse) the bad carbs kind of masked the issue by giving me some boost when training, but then really taking me backwards when not on the bike. So once I cut all that crap out it really exposed some big nutrient gaps.

-This past week I have been using the MyFitnessPal app to religiously track my carb/protein/fat intake. It has helped tremendously. Its crazy that now I have to really focus on getting enough carbs (and of course enough protein). I'm finding my performance takes more of a hit if I'm short on carbs vs short on protein. It really takes a conscious effort and I really like how it has changed my mindset to more one of "conscious eating", ie taking time to enjoy the natural flavor of things, planning a meal ahead of time and going to the grocery store just for that one meal...looking for that perfect onion, etc. It really is a shift from the standard 'American' way of buying food en-masse that that will be good for a week (lots of processed foods), eating quickly to get a meal out of the way, etc.

-Spice combinations are so much more critical to making a good meal. I feel like such a rookie in terms of the best spices to have on hand, where to buy things, how to combine them for a pleasing taste, etc. I think the biggest challenge with any change in diet is just learning how to cook. I'm hoping once I've cooked a lot of these recommended meals again and again, that some of the concepts will become second nature, and cooking a meal won't take 2 hours :-)

-I can't recommend this cookbook (https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Cookbook-Recipes/dp/1250127769) enough. Its excellent! Lots of pictures, guidance on building up an inventory of the base things needed, suggested variations, etc. Same author as the How Not to Die book I mentioned in my OP.

-This week I crushed my 50 mile ride PR. There's a 50 mile route I do with about 1500' of climbing (just a lot of rollers...nothing crazy). Previously my PR was an avg speed of 21.5 mph. 2 days ago I did it at an avg speed of 22, with no drafting. That's nothing to really shake a stick at, but for me it was great. I had to dig really deep and it hurt so much more than any 50 mile ride I've done before, but it felt like I was able to stay in that painful "above LT threshold" zone for much longer. That may not relate to the diet, but it at least confirmed that my power was getting back to normal, and possibly a bit better. Or...my power might have been the same, but being lighter just helped on the rollers.

[livingminimal]

Stoked for you.

I went vegan the morning of July 4th, 2017.
I'll never go back to eating animal products.

It started with health reasons, I'd always flirted with being vegan and had very long stretches of being vegetarian. I wanted to do it for health first, but as PTourkin has mentioned several times, there is simply no moral or just reason to use animals in this matter. Eating meat and animal products in the style and quantity that Americans and Euros do, is a relatively new phenomenon, but as we consistently demonstrate, we seem to have forgotten there are civilizations and culture living successfully and healthily outside of our borders.

I've lost 30lbs since going Vegan. Most importantly, I feel better. Higher energy, better on the bike, and, I feel better about being conscious of the impact my food decisions have on the environment and other living beings.

Being vegan is easy. Why more people dont do it is best summarized by this Louis MacKey quote from Waking Life:


"Why so few? Why is world history and evolution not stories of progress but rather this endless and futile addition of zeroes. No greater values have developed. Hell, the Greeks 3,000 years ago were just as advanced as we are. So what are these barriers that keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential? The answer to that can be found in another question, and that’s this: Which is the most universal human characteristic – fear or laziness?”

[jdhansen63]

For anybody vegetarian/vegan curious, I highly recommend this lecture by Dr. David Katz.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4-CAtdnPNlU

[93KgBike]

Many paleontologists believe that the eating of meat (and the evolutionary changes required to acquire, prepare, and digest meat) was an important step in our ancestors becoming human.

What is left unsaid here is that paleontology is not describing animal husbandry, or even opportunistic hunting, but the consumption of our own species. It's a deep dive to conceptualize the transition of ape to human 9,000,000+ years ago, and not the place I'd start if you want to preserve your appetite for flesh.

I worked as a butcher's assistant when I was 15-18. It was an ok job, but I was a vegetarian from 15 until I my junior year of college. I still go light on the animal proteins decades later.

[rlanger]

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[rlanger]

51 years old and have been vegan for 6 years as of today.

In that time I've run 2 Boston Marathons and 2 Ironman Triathlons, among countless other races. So, it couldn't have had too much of a negative impact.

I feel better than I've ever felt in my life and the only thing I regret is not having done it sooner.

I did find it a bit challenging to give up cheese, but after a few months I rarely thought about it anymore.

I went vegan to see the impact on my race performance, but now I don't race very often anymore and consider myself an ethical vegan.

My advice is to stick to whole foods as much as possible, don't be afraid of white rice or potatoes, and eat a lot, especially if you're training regularly.

Check out Scott Jurek's book Eat and Run. Great story and the best vegan chilli recipe I've ever tried.