Amateur racing teams - any good models?

[kgreene10]

I’m both an academic and an amateur bike racer with a team, so Kissinger’s aphorism that “the battles are so vicious because the stakes are so small” rings doubly true to me.

Our team of about 30 3/4/5 (and one 2) racers is in the midst of what I guess could be deemed a civil war. And it’s the second year in a row. Both times, one group decides that its people are better and more committed than others. Eventually they leave the team en masse. This year, it’s happening mid season, which is especially awkward.

Throughout the year, there have been standard recriminations of people not working for others in races and not showing up to team events. Some of the latter is driven by differences in people’s job and family responsibility, and some is down to personality. There have been sporadic attempts to impose rules with documents and leaders, but of course these were either forgotten or became a cudgel with which to bash others. In other words, we experienced all the standard problems of self-governed volunteer organizations, fueled further by the delusions of grandeur that amateur bike racers seem to uniquely suffer.

I should add that our team is hitched to a club with an open membership, so this complicates any move to impose ins vs outs but also makes us a large club and a pillar of the local cycling community.

So, has anyone been involved in a team that has functioned well? If so, what were the lynchpins that made it work? Smaller group and all friends? Strict membership requirements? Strong personality leading the team? Tiered benefits?

[jumphigher]

Wow, your amateur racing experiences remind me of everything I've read about professional teams, so you've got that going for you at least. :)

[HenryA]

Smaller group and all friends sounds good.

Its an individual sport in terms of most who are attracted to it, but in reality, its a team sport. Resolving that contradiction is what you are after.

Finding people who actually want to work together and help each other is the key, along with competent leadership that is acknowledged and accepted by the group.

[ultraman6970]

IME, if nobody is being paid to race they have the right to say no to responsibilities inside of the team, since the moment money like allowances are in the middle, which is common in south america and europe for amateur teams that pretty much are semi-pro teams compared with pro-pro peloton. Then the things change a lot.

The other thing is that when you have a bunch of amateur riders that arent being paid a dime, and started racing at older age, if not just plain adulthood. Then the things change again because if you have teams with people that started at age 12, the vision of the sport is different, they know it is a thing of being a team, and those riders are easier to handle than a doctor that wants to ride fast and race only. So you have riders that are harder to control depending on the background.

One of my friends is in a female team and she was telling me that nobody plans the races because the tension between the riders is way too big. In a matter of fact she was planning the races herself, trying to make the other members of the team to participate, nothing, actually she got a few 3rd places just because of her planning, the other girls did not even want to talk to her later on, no idea if she is still there. Btw, the whole team started riding older, really old in life too.

Surprise me here, with the ammount of riders moving around, the junior divisions are so poor and non organized as good as they should be. Would be great to see weekly junior division races in this area/county, then state wide races to classify for junior nationals... I think infraestructure has a lot to do aswell... ok kind'a rant that has nothing to do with the subject :P

[EDS]

I’m both an academic and an amateur bike racer with a team, so Kissinger’s aphorism that “the battles are so vicious because the stakes are so small” rings doubly true to me.

Our team of about 30 3/4/5 (and one 2) racers is in the midst of what I guess could be deemed a civil war. And it’s the second year in a row. Both times, one group decides that its people are better and more committed than others. Eventually they leave the team en masse. This year, it’s happening mid season, which is especially awkward.

Throughout the year, there have been standard recriminations of people not working for others in races and not showing up to team events. Some of the latter is driven by differences in people’s job and family responsibility, and some is down to personality. There have been sporadic attempts to impose rules with documents and leaders, but of course these were either forgotten or became a cudgel with which to bash others. In other words, we experienced all the standard problems of self-governed volunteer organizations, fueled further by the delusions of grandeur that amateur bike racers seem to uniquely suffer.

I should add that our team is hitched to a club with an open membership, so this complicates any move to impose ins vs outs but also makes us a large club and a pillar of the local cycling community.

So, has anyone been involved in a team that has functioned well? If so, what were the lynchpins that made it work? Smaller group and all friends? Strict membership requirements? Strong personality leading the team? Tiered benefits?

Good leadership and communication are key as are personality matches when recruiting new riders to the team. My team has 30+ racers ranging from cat 5s to cat 1s (I think right now we have 4 guys on the team who have gone all the way from 5 to 1 while being on the team, which is pretty cool), with a wide range of ages (we have one teenager and everything up through 50+). Every year a few guys leave because they want more of an opportunity to be a team leader, which is fine. If a guy sacrifices himself for a teammate that is almost always paid back in spades in future races.

[Walter]

Seth Davidson is a lawyer in SoCal and a member of a very active amateur club team here. He has written some interesting pieces on his blog on the dramas that infest some clubs.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

He would be a great source of information on what he has seen work. You might try reaching out to him.

[David Tollefson]

The OP experience mirrors what happened in the club I raced with. In my years in that club, it spawned no less than three other racing teams. It was strange to be racing against riders I'd been racing with just the season prior. After I stopped racing (my own personal reasons that had nothing to do with the club), there was another mass exodus that spelled the end of the non-masters portion of the club.

Much of the friction stemmed from the attitudes of the major sponsor (a bike shop owned by one of the master's racers) and the division of support between the master's squad and everyone else.

[peanutgallery]

Does it even matter? There's no money and even less resources. Anyone wound to the moon over 3/4 racing needs an evaluation in a padded room. It's the beer league, or it should be...it just doesn't matter yet

As far as pr/marketing...it's all about development and being a good ambassador to your sponsors to curry favor for development. As far as those that are getting wacky...a serious sitdown and tough questions. What do you bring to the table and when does the check get here? If they want to Walter Mitty somewhere else, great. But you're going to work for it. If they attempt to take sponsors, break their knuckles

Rant over, funny how nothing changes

PS: Masters racing matters even less

[11.4]

Let's be realistic.

First, there are a few riders you don't really want in your club (except to score wins) and you probably don't like riding with. You have to be smart about who you invite onto your team.

Second, we all agree that we're not in it for the money. Not seriously, anyway. But we're all in it because we're competitive and we're ego-conscious. We want to be in a better team and we want to be recognized the best. If you're on a team that doesn't have a lot of tangible benefits (like travel reimbursement, equipment, and so on), you simply aren't going to be incentivizing team members to stay, to behave, and to win. That's just what bike racing is. There are some people who will join a team and compete just to be part of a team, but that's a minority, and you are the ones who are left after the rest of the team walks out. Talking masters? You absolutely have to address this. Same for juniors -- you have to be recognizing a rider enough that he wants to race and bring his girlfriend (or her boyfriend, or whatever) to a race. Basic rule: You don't get much more from a team member than you do for them.

Teams that have done well over prolonged periods and seen solid growth have been those with good support of riders. The best way to do this is to tier your riders, with active support (race support, funding, equipment, kit, etc.) for the top percentage, some more limited support for the next percentage range, and then riders at the bottom will tend to stay because they like being part of a hot club and they don't expect as much.

A club that isn't actively pursuing sponsorships and putting money out there for riders won't keep its team. Those that keep fundraising and keep getting better at it (because it's a process that takes several years and gets better and better) end up with top regional riders, good coaches, more equipment freebies, and overall become the most attractive teams. They learn how to act pro and that makes the members think pro and behave pro. Of all the hundreds of teams I've seen, that's how it always works.

Do a serious job of raising material sponsorship. Use the money to support some better riders who can also help develop those coming along behind them. Consciously market a high profile that rewards the riders you want on your team. It may sound mercenary, but you'll be very pleased by the results. I've never seen another way that worked for a racing team.

[djg21]

I’m both an academic and an amateur bike racer with a team, so Kissinger’s aphorism that “the battles are so vicious because the stakes are so small” rings doubly true to me.

Our team of about 30 3/4/5 (and one 2) racers is in the midst of what I guess could be deemed a civil war. And it’s the second year in a row. Both times, one group decides that its people are better and more committed than others. Eventually they leave the team en masse. This year, it’s happening mid season, which is especially awkward.

Throughout the year, there have been standard recriminations of people not working for others in races and not showing up to team events. Some of the latter is driven by differences in people’s job and family responsibility, and some is down to personality. There have been sporadic attempts to impose rules with documents and leaders, but of course these were either forgotten or became a cudgel with which to bash others. In other words, we experienced all the standard problems of self-governed volunteer organizations, fueled further by the delusions of grandeur that amateur bike racers seem to uniquely suffer.

I should add that our team is hitched to a club with an open membership, so this complicates any move to impose ins vs outs but also makes us a large club and a pillar of the local cycling community.

So, has anyone been involved in a team that has functioned well? If so, what were the lynchpins that made it work? Smaller group and all friends? Strict membership requirements? Strong personality leading the team? Tiered benefits?

What is your definition of a team? Mine was 2-3 guys who I enjoyed riding bicycles with and being in a car with for a couple of hours while driving to races. It worked pretty well. We happened to be on the same racing club, and sometimes even wore matching jerseys, but most importantly, we were, and still are, friends.

[.RJ]

So, has anyone been involved in a team that has functioned well? If so, what were the lynchpins that made it work? Smaller group and all friends? Strict membership requirements? Strong personality leading the team? Tiered benefits?

Accept that for all intents, its a bowling club.

Go ride/race bikes hard in your bike underwear and have fun and be good people/teammates and give back to the local community somehow and dont take it to seriously.

[KonaSS]

I think you need to define what you want your team to be upfront, and that will take care of many issues. Is it a more of a club, and hey we race once in awhile. Is it a masters team that races as a hobby, but we don't take ourselves too seriously and our goal is not to move up the ranks but to have fun. Is it a race team, meant to develop serious racers, move them up the ranks, etc.

I think if provide this type of clarity, people will know upfront whether this is the right team or not.

[fignon's barber]

Of all the teams I've been on over the years, there was one that was most fun. I would recommend setting up your racing riders into small teams (ie Masters 30+,40+, cat 4, cat 5,etc). Let each small team set their own atmosphere, train together, race strategize, socialize, etc). All prize money gets split within the small team. As an over view, use race expense reimbursement (entry fees, gas money,etc) to reward these small teams working together.

[GregL]

I've been on several teams over the years. Some were very competitive at the 1-2-3 level, some were much more social in nature. The ones that lasted the longest and had the least amount of interpersonal issues seemed to have the following characteristics:

- Benevolent dictatorship - someone leads the team and makes "good" decisions on its direction. Can't have a successful ship without a captain!

- Common goals - have a mission statement that everyone signs up to. On the best team I was on, we had a social mission in addition to just "racing fast" as a goal. Two of our team members were type 1 diabetics. Our team participated in the local ADA Tour de Cure and were in fact one of the top fundraisers. We rode the event as a team training ride, keeping a safe paceline and allowing anyone who wanted to follow along. There were lots of happy riders who gladly sat in and were towed along for a sub 4:30 century.

- Similar personalities - if the people don't mesh, the team will eventually split or fold. We were very picky about who we asked to join the team. "Type A with big hearts" seemed to be our common theme. One self-centered egotist can ruin a team in a hurry.

- Have race plans in advance - the best teams have A, B, and sometimes C plans for the races they participate in. Who will chase down breaks, who will (attempt to...) go in breaks, who are the sprinters, etc... Just riding along and hoping for the best is a crapshoot. Much more fun to have plan(s) and make them happen. Do you want the race to define your team's performance, or does your team want to define the race?

- Keep it small.

- Delegate and follow up. If the leader gets overwhelmed, things will go bad shortly. Spread the support workload amongst the team.

- Don't make it about money. I've never understood amateur bike racers getting cash prizes or sponsorships. In the best teams I was on, financial reward was not even part of the discussion. Sponsorships were at best discounts through a bike shop or cycling equipment company. Winnings at races were shared with all team members in the race, put back into the team treasury, or given back to the race promoter. I still follow this model today even though I essentially race as a privateer. I was on the podium at a circuit race a few weeks back. The cash prize was only $15. I handed it back to the promoter and thanked him for putting on such a great race.

- Look to the long term. One of the best parts of running a team is watching riders grow in the sport and move on to "better" things. We had one team member start as a 15 year-old. Ten years later, he's a Cat 1 who raced for a top national collegiate program. Growing new riders and promoting local races are two of the best things a team can do.

That's it at a high level.

Greg

[coreydoesntknow]

In my experience, which spans from elite-am teams to local squads made up of the 3 best friends anyone could ever have, there's only two good ways to get group cohesion:
1) The team is made up of people who have people that have reached their potential and have realized that they just can't win on their own, which usually doesn't happen until you're at least a 2, so that doesn't sound like it's going to help you
2) A smaller group of people who are either real life friends or at least respect each other

It's difficult with the open format of a club team to get everyone on the same page, but at the end of the day it comes down to respect.

[Gummee]

What is it the bass player from the Eagles said? In my experience all rock bands are on the verge of splitting up all the time.

Something like that anyways...

So... I don't have a prescription 'cause the last team I rode for other than my own bike brand kicked me off the team for reasons unknown to me mid-season. Never have figured that one out.

M

[kgreene10]

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. As expected, doesn’t sound like there’s a magic formula - in some instances, spontaneous consensus borne of friendship or shared values works and in some instances, Hobbesian (benevolent) leadership. Both routes seem to require curating membership which is something we can’t easily do. As a result, I think we have to shoot for a lower bar of race organization.

A bunch of the comments also incline toward “know thyself”. I’m a 49 year old Cat 3 who sometimes gets a top-10 finish. I won’t become a 2 and will probably do more masters racing over the next few years. I’m currently really exhausted by the team drama that seems totally outsized to me but is somehow impossible to just ignore.

So I think I’m leaning toward organizing a few guys without sponsorship and asking the question “would I want to carpool for six hours with this guy?” as the membership litmus.

[BobC]

That is probably the best answer.

You have to expect that racers at different levels & different stages of life (and bike racing) will have different priorities. Your best bet is to find a set of guys who "fit" with your priorities.

My litmus test was always "would I enjoy spending a whole weekend with these guys." I ended up with a small but very tight group who enjoyed racing together & hanging out together. Never regretted that decision.

[batman1425]

The most fun club I was a part of was where we were small were and all friends. Associated benefits were not so good - no real useful sponsorships mostly due to the size - less of a payback for the sponsors.

The most support I got as a member was from a much bigger club with tiered membership rewards. Joining was free, but if you wanted benefits, you paid a modest due which largely went to supporting the junior program (coaching, equipment) and race paybacks. If we raced and flew the colors, the club would subsidize entry fees on a distance and cost of entry scale. Races that cost more to attend (further away or bigger races with higher fees) we got a bit more subsidy. Because it was a bigger club, we also got better benefits through via sponsors. The downside is I only got to know a few people on the team well and it was a bit of a shotgun blast of skill levels, life situations, etc. Nice folks though and well organized with a good history in the area.

At the end of the day, no matter how seriously you take it, its still all just for fun. None of us are paying the bills with this stuff. My most successful road season, where I took home a much higher than average amount of prize money, I was still many hundreds of dollars in the hole after all the expenses. The drama kills the fun for me. Whatever you need to do to find a drama free team environment, do that.

[Hellgate]

CAT 5...team, that's hysterical...

CAT 4...team, that's hysterical too...

CAT 3...team, okay, now we're getting somewhere...

Says the 50+ Master...

[John H.]

I think a successful team needs a few things-
1.) a clear mission statement
2.) a clear program and clear expectations
3.) equal treatment for all riders
4.) all members are invited- and vetted prior to being invited

If a team is all or mostly about looking cool or getting stuff it is likely doomed.

If there is no clear cut program or expectations it can end up being a team full of riders who talk a big game in November, then never show up.

Don’t be a team full of grown men playing dress up.

[batman1425]

CAT 5...team, that's hysterical...

CAT 4...team, that's hysterical too...

CAT 3...team, okay, now we're getting somewhere...

Says the 50+ Master...

I've been on a few teams with successful Cat 4 groups. Mostly populated by people that have lots of experience but not a lot of time to train. As a result they can read races really well and work together quite effectively. In fact its a really helpful environment for developing riders that want to move up at an accelerated rate and helped make the P1/2/3 and Masters groups in the same club even stronger.

[peanutgallery]

Cat 4/5: Clueless...but having fun

Cat 3: Delusional

Cat 1/2/"Pro": Unemployable

CAT 5...team, that's hysterical...

CAT 4...team, that's hysterical too...

CAT 3...team, okay, now we're getting somewhere...

Says the 50+ Master...

[benb]

I was on a pretty large team, even though I only stayed with it in Cat 5/4.

We had a somewhat substantial income stream through running a weekly race series. 3 races every sunday, I think we had a field limit on the C race of 50 people and 100 on the A/B races. On light days we would combine the A + B race. It was something like $10 to get in. The only cost for the race was paying a police detail + official, which was a pretty substantial cost AFAICT.

We had sponsorship too. Basically what it all meant was there was realistically money to pay for everyone to get free tires/chains/cables/bar tape, etc.. if the finances were handled carefully. But they weren't necessarily handled carefully, and while I was there it was discovered someone had been stealing from the club's bank account. I basically ended my membership before that was ever sorted out.

We had organization even at the Cat 4/5 level.. because the team had a long history of mentoring new riders on how to ride as a team. We could pull off 3-4 man leadouts cause we practiced them and they generally worked well in crits, we had a few people who were natural sprinters and they would get podiums/primes pretty regularly. Everything outside of a crit was way less organized because there was no guarantee we could have 3-4 guys showing up for a road race who had the right body type/fitness on that day to do a job for the team. And deciding who was going to be the leader that day was always a weird mess.

I didn't really know what was going on with the 2/3 riders on the team, they kept to themselves although it was obvious their lifestyle/training was way more committed. They generally weren't doing much volunteering for the club at all, it felt more like the 4/5 guys were doing the gruntwork to keep the club going and the 2/3 guys were just there to race.

I felt like the volunteer part was actually a really sticky part of it all. Volunteering meant you were spending time on cycling without a training benefit. Training already takes a ridiculous amount of time to be competitive, and then you're volunteering for 3-4 hours on a Sunday and you've now spent that time but haven't trained on one of your weekend days. If you were working a serious job it was a big impediment, cause you might have been racing the other day and now you might not have a day for a long ride to maintain endurance. I was single at the time, it all worked for me the first year because I was working as a contractor with a strict 40 hour/week cap on my work. The second year I was a FTE at a startup and it was near impossible to get in racing shape and my seasons sucked from then on till I gave it up. I pretty much knew I was never going to put in the time commitment to be a 2/3 type rider.

The racing was exciting but I don't miss much of the rest. If I was starting a team I'd almost say "no riders who are married/have kids." :P No way I want to be doing this stuff now that I'm married with a family.

We didn't have "wars" AFAICT but it was a revolving door of members at any level of racing. The 2/3 guys were constantly shuffling off to other teams and the 4/5 guys were constantly coming in new and then 50% or more would give up by the next year.

I agree 4/5 can be chaotic but at least back then it was not all clueless.

[kgreene10]

Some really quotable content in this thread and, more importantly, some great stories about people’s experiences as racers and team members over the years.

I’ve taken stock over the past few days as the team infighting reaches fever pitch. I’m a 49 year old Cat 3 with a family and a demanding career. Why am I allowing this to occupy headspace? The camaradierie level has been low, the angst level high, and the strategic benefit in races questionable at best. I think I just want to race with a few guys who make for good carpool conversation. That should have been obvious but when my club of nine years spawned a dedicated race team two years ago, I just sort of got sucked in. Thanks for letting me talk it out on the forum.

[11.4]

Some really quotable content in this thread and, more importantly, some great stories about people’s experiences as racers and team members over the years.

I’ve taken stock over the past few days as the team infighting reaches fever pitch. I’m a 49 year old Cat 3 with a family and a demanding career. Why am I allowing this to occupy headspace? The camaradierie level has been low, the angst level high, and the strategic benefit in races questionable at best. I think I just want to race with a few guys who make for good carpool conversation. That should have been obvious but when my club of nine years spawned a dedicated race team two years ago, I just sort of got sucked in. Thanks for letting me talk it out on the forum.

The best parts of racing are often the long drives together in a car, sitting around before a race watching the other classes race, and then sitting around afterwards, a nice dinner together, and a drive home. In some ways, racing is like scuba diving -- an hour or two of actual event with a couple days' worth of travel, waiting, prepping, dining, and recovering.