OT: Given the Wagon (Wagen?) love on this forum . . . (specific car-buying question)

[exapkib]

If I know anything about this group, it's that there is an above-average appreciation for the wagon. This weekend it has become clear that our trusty little Subaru (1997 Outback Sport (the one built on the Impreza hatchback platform) is nearer the end of its life than we wish it was.

While I am sorely tempted to reach up for a newer Subaru Outback (wagon), I also recognize that we don't really "need" AWD.

My specific question is this:

Would you buy a used (post-"fix") TDI wagon?

My follow up question:

What would you look for/be aware of in choosing such a vehicle?

And, of course:

What other cars should I be considering? (Target budget: $10,000. We're already considering: Outback, Volvo, Ford Focus.)

[4Rings6Stars]

I’m driving a 2004 Audi A4 wagon (that I bought from a forum member). It has a small turbo gas engine and a 6 speed manual transmission.

It’s essentially the same car as a Jetta / golf sportwagen (in terms of size and aesthetics) and at least on my local Craigslist, they are almost being given away. Lots of nice examples for sub $5k.

I recently got the new car itch, but after searching s bit and doing some research, I’m leaning towards keeping mine for another few years. I get upper 20s MPG, it’s fun to drive, fits the family of 4 if it needs to and is a beast in the snow. I am tempted to get the same car but a few generations newer, but I’m having trouble finding one with a stick. Seems they stopped offering the Avant with a manual transmission at some point.

[likebikes]

the tdi scandal thread bouncing around this forum is pretty much an exhaustive report on all things tdi and vw.

i doubt you'll be able to find a post-scandal tdi for <10k.

edit: just checked my local cl, i live in one of the 20 largest cities in the country and there is one recemt tdi wagon on cl for <10k. 2014, auto, 132kmi. and it's 50 miles away from the metro area!

[Skenry]

I'd be looking for a PRE-fix TDI.

Actually I'm looking at a convertible VW EOS right now

[eddief]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273355535841

[C40_guy]

My specific question is this:

Would you buy a used (post-"fix") TDI wagon?

My follow up question:

What would you look for/be aware of in choosing such a vehicle?

And, of course:

What other cars should I be considering? (Target budget: $10,000. We're already considering: Outback, Volvo, Ford Focus.)

No issues on post-fix TDis. They will drive *slightly* differently than the same car pre-fix, but since you don't have the pre-fix experience, it's no big deal. :)

And you can't beat the fuel economy!

The 3 liter TDi motors in VW, Audi, and Porsche all come with a 4 year/48K mile extended warranty on the long block, turbos, and all emissions devices. I would guess that the 2 liter motors have a similar warranty.

We just turned in a 201 VW Touareg TDi and purchased a 2013 Audi Q7 TDi with some of the proceeds. It was a *very* good deal. :)

With any used car, obviously, you'll want to have a complete pre purchase inspection done. Check suspension, electrical, other mechanical, etc.

A 2009-2012 Audi A4 wagon might be a good alternative, by the way. Fabulous cars, fun to drive, economical on (premium) gas. The earlier cars have the Takata airbag recall to think about... And this generation, by the way, had an issue with oil consumption. If you're looking at a B8 Audi, you should confirm that the fix (new rings/pistons) have been done.

We bought a clean 2010 A4 sedan, 2 liter turbo, quattro, with 100K miles a year ago for $8K. That was somewhat below market. You should be able to find similar sedans and wagons today in that price range.

You will also need a good private mechanic. These cars are pretty reliable and a good private mechanic won't be a budget buster (unlike dealer service.)

Lots of good forums -- tdiclub, audiworld, quattroworld, audizine...

Have fun shopping!

[CDollarsign]

I have a 2012 A4 Avant that I adore. It recently came off warranty and I have had very little issues with it. Got the new pistons and have no oil consumption issues anymore. Just had to replace a joint in the steering column ($800) and now need to replace the AC blower motor and controller which I am going to attempt myself. If you have a good independent Audi wrench in your area I’d look for a 2012. If not pass on Audi’s in general.

I still have a rattling sunroof which they’ve never been able to fix and wouldn’t replace under CPO warranty but that my only gripe. I have the whispbar rack system and loading bikes is a breeze.

[old fat man]

Very happy a4 Avant owner here. I found a 2007 b7 with less than 60k miles last winter. $11k. Wished it was stick but I've grown to accept the automatic. 30 mpg on highway trips with 87 octane and plenty of room to put the bike inside if I'm traveling solo. Local buddy helped me with some required preventative maintenance.

FYI, can't get a manual Avant in USA after the B7. B8+ are all automatic.

[mistermo]

I have a 2005 Passat GLS TDI wagon with a manual. The car has been thoroughly and meticulously maintained and is near bullet-proof. I LOVE the manual. One of the nation's foremost Passat TDI mechanics imports the manual trans from Germany and installs them, along with the timing chain conversion and a few other engine mods designed to make the car go forever. I easily get 40+mpg. After all this, the car should do 1MM miles. It's got 190K now and requires virtually no maintenance, save the frequent oil changes. I just got a Model 3 and may, regrettably, sell the Passat. I like both cars tons. One analog, the other digital.

[exapkib]

I really appreciate all of the information here. Actually just took the Subaru in this morning for what might be its final visit--seems something is afoot in the transmission . . . Sigh.

I just wish there was a source for information about the criteria I care about in owning a car. Our family is actually mostly "car-light." Our uses, in order of frequency:

--Kids' carpools
--Rambles up the canyon (~35 miles, 1-2 trips/week)
--Occasional CostCo trips (~15 miles, 1 trip/month)
--Visit family in the next town over (~50 miles, 1-2 times/month)
--Visit family in CO (~500 miles, 3-4 times/year)

We are able to get everything else done on foot or bike. If not for the seatbelt/cargo capacity needed for the carpool and canyon trips, respectively, we would certainly buy a smaller car and rent/borrow when the bigger trips came around.

I don't really need a 'driving experience.' I care about price, reliability, and functionality way more than anything else. We've looked seriously at minivans (I love the practicality), but they lack the clearance (really, it's an issue of angle-of-attack) to get around in our neighborhood (lots of steep ascents, sharp dips, etc.) without incessant scraping.

Am I overthinking this? Should I just find another Subaru that fits the budget?

[.RJ]

I don't really need a 'driving experience.' I care about price, reliability, and functionality way more than anything else. We've looked seriously at minivans (I love the practicality), but they lack the clearance (really, it's an issue of angle-of-attack) to get around in our neighborhood (lots of steep ascents, sharp dips, etc.) without incessant scraping.

Am I overthinking this? Should I just find another Subaru that fits the budget?

Sounds like you need another subaru, then. Maybe take a look at the Jetta (gas) sportwagen and the Passat wagon came with the 2.0t for a few years.

A used Audi/BMW wagon bought in at your $10k budget will bleed you dry if you are relying on a shop to handle your service & repairs.

[4Rings6Stars]

Sounds like you need another subaru, then. Maybe take a look at the Jetta (gas) sportwagen and the Passat wagon came with the 2.0t for a few years.

A used Audi/BMW wagon bought in at your $10k budget will bleed you dry if you are relying on a shop to handle your service & repairs.

Agree.

If you don't care about the driving experience aspect, then skip a used audi or VW and get a subie. My family has had several over the years...brother has a recent Outback right and MIL has a brand new Legacy sedan. Both are okay cars, but to bring it back to cycling they compare to driving my Audi as a Surly Cross Check compares to riding my Hampsten...

Also, paying a premium for a more fuel efficient car doesn't really make sense if you're driving fewer than 10k miles per year.

[exapkib]

Just talked to the mechanic--rear differential failure on the Subaru, which is entirely bizarre.

$800 repair, or say our goodbyes . . .

In any case, it looks like the car shopping is about to get a lot more urgent.

[exapkib]

Agree.

If you don't care about the driving experience aspect, then skip a used audi or VW and get a subie. My family has had several over the years...brother has a recent Outback right and MIL has a brand new Legacy sedan. Both are okay cars, but to bring it back to cycling they compare to driving my Audi as a Surly Cross Check compares to riding my Hampsten...

Also, paying a premium for a more fuel efficient car doesn't really make sense if you're driving fewer than 10k miles per year.

This is exactly the kind of straight talk I need to hear. You're probably right that we really don't drive enough to make the difference in fuel economy a huge part of the equation. Lots of thinking to do tonight . . .

Thanks again to all who have chimed in.

[likebikes]

$800 isn't that much for a car repair. i'd fix the differential and drive it until the engine seizes or given that it's a subaru, the head gasket blows (again)

is your mechanic a local independent guy/shop? call around and get other quotes...

[YoKev]

Just talked to the mechanic--rear differential failure on the Subaru, which is entirely bizarre.

$800 repair, or say our goodbyes . . .

In any case, it looks like the car shopping is about to get a lot more urgent.

This is an extremely rare failure. Your 1997 has the 2.2l engine I believe. That's a fairly highly regarded engine.

You seem happy with the car. For your needs, I'd fix it for the $800 and keep driving.

[.RJ]

$800 is cheaper than 3 months of new car payment. Hell, its probably less than the tax/registration on a new car.

[Climb01742]

Agree.

If you don't care about the driving experience aspect, then skip a used audi or VW and get a subie. My family has had several over the years...brother has a recent Outback right and MIL has a brand new Legacy sedan. Both are okay cars, but to bring it back to cycling they compare to driving my Audi as a Surly Cross Check compares to riding my Hampsten...

Also, paying a premium for a more fuel efficient car doesn't really make sense if you're driving fewer than 10k miles per year.

Do you happen to have or know of a good VW/Audi mechanic locally? I’m perpetually on the fence about my 09 GTI. I love it but always look longingly at Audi wagons, particularly come winter! Thx.

[exapkib]

This is an extremely rare failure. Your 1997 has the 2.2l engine I believe. That's a fairly highly regarded engine.

You seem happy with the car. For your needs, I'd fix it for the $800 and keep driving.

$800 is cheaper than 3 months of new car payment. Hell, its probably less than the tax/registration on a new car.

You're right--the $800 is not the deal-breaker, it's more the fact that the major systems of the car seem to be giving out one by one. In the past 12 months we've replaced so many pieces of this car. This time the mechanic looked at me and said, "Every car reaches a point where it can't really hold up to being your only vehicle. Yours has officially reached that point. I would never drive this thing up and over the mountains again." We'll definitely hold on to it as an 'around town' second car. He said the fluid in the differential was clean enough that we can drive it on short trips for quite a while before replacing the part.

In any case, we are not really in the market for a new car--we've saved up about $10000 to put toward a used car (really, we had been saving to replace the roof in our house, but closer inspection shows we've got another year before that major expense. Sigh.).

[C40_guy]

Do you happen to have or know of a good VW/Audi mechanic locally? I’m perpetually on the fence about my 09 GTI. I love it but always look longingly at Audi wagons, particularly come winter! Thx.

I highly recommend Central Service Garage in Natick. Dave, the proprietor, has been taking care of my Audis and VWs for many years.

[ntkt10]

My first choice would be the TDI wagon, great gas (diesel) mileage and I wouldn't have too many concerns about reliability. You may want to ask this question on VW Vortex or a Subie forum if you have not already.

Second choice would be the Outback, also reliable but less fun than the VW.

[Climb01742]

I highly recommend Central Service Garage in Natick. Dave, the proprietor, has been taking care of my Audis and VWs for many years.

Thanks!;)

[BikeNY]

One of the best selling points of the fixed TDIs is the 11 year 162,000 mile transferable warranty.

[p nut]

...
I don't really need a 'driving experience.' I care about price, reliability, and functionality way more than anything else. We've looked seriously at minivans (I love the practicality), but they lack the clearance (really, it's an issue of angle-of-attack) to get around in our neighborhood (lots of steep ascents, sharp dips, etc.) without incessant scraping.

Am I overthinking this? Should I just find another Subaru that fits the budget?

Incidentally, we use our family hauler for exactly the same. Kids' car pools, trips to CO and WY, family outings up the canyon, etc. We love the Sienna. It's got 6.7" of ground clearance (I think that's the same as the Golf Alltrack?), and have no issues with dips and curbs (which my wife is always subconsciously drawn to). Massive room inside, safe, and very useful. Super duper boring to drive, but you know that already.

[Climb01742]

If AWD isn’t needed, another option is a used Volvo V50. Everyone I’ve ever talked to who owned one, loved it.

[C40_guy]

One of the best selling points of the fixed TDIs is the 11 year 162,000 mile transferable warranty.

That is a nuance that I was not aware of. Audi and Porsche created a bridge warranty for the TDi vehicles of 10 (12?) years and 120K miles. Then there's also a 4 year/48K mile warranty that's applied after the fix is done.

I'm not sure that VW offered the bridge warranty too...

In my case, I just bought a Q7 TDi with 119K miles. That bridge warranty expires shortly, and the 4/48K kicks in. If the Q7 had 60K miles, I would have had another 60K mile on the bridge warranty. Not sure that the 4/48K stacks on top of that though...

[buddybikes]

I am also a wagon fan, have a 2008 Saab 9-5 manual. Been very good, normal little Saab things. No problem getting parts. However now need full exhaust, brakes, and power windows switch in middle. Not sure if worth it, body is in fine shape however. I drive very little now, but would only replace with quality seating, preferrably leather due to my bad back. Want a wagon due to height, can lift kayaks on top without stretching. A few year old Volvo seems like a decent choice, no idea on reliability of newer ones.

Meanwhile we have 2 Prius's (one actually Lexus 200h) that are ultra reliable, daughters car has 170K on it, been cross country twice. Only thing needed is brakes.

[572cv]

Another wagon fan here. I recently picked up a '14 BMW 328D Xdrive. And a Seasucker rack for the roof (Paceline purchase)! The car has ticked over 50K. It is smooth riding, powerful and fun-to-drive. Those of you looking for a second hand rig might come across one of these. I've driven european rentals, but this is my first diesel car here. Call me pretty impressed so far.

[Gummee]

$800 isn't that much for a car repair. i'd fix the differential and drive it until the engine seizes or given that it's a subaru, the head gasket blows (again)

is your mechanic a local independent guy/shop? call around and get other quotes...

I need a $1k transfer case in my X3.

Still gonna do it and keep driving the thing 'cause it's a unicorn: 6MT in an X3! The computer says I'm getting mid-20s with the air on. Beats the 13-17 in my F150...

M

[exapkib]

Quick update--

I test drove a 2014 Sportwagen TDI yesterday. Really interesting experience. I assume you get used to the lag pretty quickly, but I had flashbacks to the first time I drove a stick. No stalling this time, but plenty of 'hesitation' when starting from a stop.

I loved so many things about the car--drove so nicely. Plenty of space inside for our needs (with one exception, discussed below. I loved the sunroof, the acceleration onto the highway. I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't feel huge--the hood is shorter than our Impreza hatchback!

The downsides--the roof is awfully low for the people sitting in the back seat. This genuinely surprised me. I am not a tall person (5'11" on a good day), but I can't sit in the back seat without having my head smashed against the ceiling. Seemed odd.

We're looking at a couple of minivans in the area this weekend. Still not sure which option makes the most sense:

--Minivan (for the extra seatbelts (carpools, etc.) and cargo space)
--VW (for the mileage and comfort)
--Subaru (jack of all trades, master of none; familiar territory)

[C40_guy]

You could also take a look at the Volvo Cross Country wagon. It will carry as much as a minivan and still not be a minivan. :)

[p nut]

You could also take a look at the Volvo Cross Country wagon. It will carry as much as a minivan and still not be a minivan. :)

I’d have to challenge that. :)

[exapkib]

A small update:

We need to make a purchase this week. Our Subaru is accelerating the process by unraveling more rapidly than we had hoped. I had hoped to take my time with this decision, but c'est la vie . . .

At this point, these are the front-runners:

--2012 Toyota Sienna LE, 94k miles, $13,000
--2016 Toyota Sienna LE, 62k miles, $19,000
--2012 Toyota Sienna Limited, 63k miles, $17,000 (Rebuilt title)
--2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, 94k miles, $14,000

We had decided to go with a minivan, but driving the top three options (those listed above) my wife was disappointed with the idea of paying so much money for a car that felt so 'used.' All of them feel just a little bit tired--minivans live hard lives.

Digging around on the TDI forums around the web, I'm both excited and anxious about this Golf. Where the maintenance is such a big part of what makes the difference between a VW that lives beyond 200k miles and one that lives in the service bay of the dealership, I'm nervous to buy one with so many miles.

Because we're paying cash, we have a pretty solid ceiling ($18k). Trying to be honest with myself about what else I might sell (already sold the Parlee) to close that gap if the 2016 Sienna is worth it.

Any final thoughts or tips? Thanks again for the advice up to this point. Most helpful.

[AngryScientist]

unless you have a pretty damned good (documented) history, i'd avoid the one with the rebuilt title, especially for that much money.

do you have the maintenance records for the one with 94k on it? that's still young for a toyota motor, but remember minivans are heavy vehicles, and if they have not been changed out yet, at that mileage it's getting near the time to do suspension work. with a fresh detail, maybe some nice custom seatcovers for the front two seats, and a suspension refresh, that van will feel like new again, but not necessarily a cheap endeavor.

[exapkib]

unless you have a pretty damned good (documented) history, i'd avoid the one with the rebuilt title, especially for that much money.

do you have the maintenance records for the one with 94k on it? that's still young for a toyota motor, but remember minivans are heavy vehicles, and if they have not been changed out yet, at that mileage it's getting near the time to do suspension work. with a fresh detail, maybe some nice custom seatcovers for the front two seats, and a suspension refresh, that van will feel like new again, but not necessarily a cheap endeavor.

I've excluded branded titles from our search, but this one is owned by good friends of ours. We know about the accident (and the work) that resulted in the rebuilt status, so for me it mostly boils down to the question, "Will I ever want to sell this car?" In my mind, I think the answer to that question is "No." We drive cars, we don't sell them.

[rnhood]

I have a '98 Sienna LE with 274K miles on it, and it still runs great. Love the van. Someday I will get a new one, but this one seems to just be broken in now. Having said this, it has had one or two problems over the years (I am original owner) that were expensive to repair but overall, for cycling and traveling I don't know of a better vehicle.

My advice would be to buy as new as you can afford. I would try to get one from a dealer that is off lease now, and probably has less than 20k miles. Otherwise, I think that I might see what kind of deal I can get on a Kia Sedonna, as they have a decent warranty and cost considerably less than a Sienna or Odyssey.

I'd stay away from Volkswagens.

[Ken Robb]

Check to ensure that you can get insurance that you like on a car with a salvage/rebuilt title.

[dbh]

If you're considering a minivan in addition to a sport wagen, why not broaden the search to a compact SUV? We just went through the search process a few months ago for a family wagon replacement (2 kids). We ended up with a Mazda CX5 and are pretty happy with it so far. There are so many options in this category, especially in your pricepoint used.

[likebikes]

i'd still fix your old subaru.

[.RJ]

Because we're paying cash, we have a pretty solid ceiling ($18k). Trying to be honest with myself about what else I might sell (already sold the Parlee) to close that gap if the 2016 Sienna is worth it.

Any final thoughts or tips? Thanks again for the advice up to this point. Most helpful.

If you are holding $18k cash, I would just go buy a brand new golf sportwagen. A local dealer here (DC area) is offering them at $21.5k out the door. The delta between a 100k VW and that is not worth the cost savings - and the new ones get a 6/72k warranty. Its a small amount to finance but you'll save that in maintenance over the used one in short order. At 100k, any car is going to start showing wear items.

They're available with AWD & 6-speed manuals if you like, otherwise the DSG is very good.

My $.02.

[oldpotatoe]

A small update:

We need to make a purchase this week. Our Subaru is accelerating the process by unraveling more rapidly than we had hoped. I had hoped to take my time with this decision, but c'est la vie . . .

At this point, these are the front-runners:

--2012 Toyota Sienna LE, 94k miles, $13,000
--2016 Toyota Sienna LE, 62k miles, $19,000
--2012 Toyota Sienna Limited, 63k miles, $17,000 (Rebuilt title)
--2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, 94k miles, $14,000

We had decided to go with a minivan, but driving the top three options (those listed above) my wife was disappointed with the idea of paying so much money for a car that felt so 'used.' All of them feel just a little bit tired--minivans live hard lives.

Digging around on the TDI forums around the web, I'm both excited and anxious about this Golf. Where the maintenance is such a big part of what makes the difference between a VW that lives beyond 200k miles and one that lives in the service bay of the dealership, I'm nervous to buy one with so many miles.

Because we're paying cash, we have a pretty solid ceiling ($18k). Trying to be honest with myself about what else I might sell (already sold the Parlee) to close that gap if the 2016 Sienna is worth it.

Any final thoughts or tips? Thanks again for the advice up to this point. Most helpful.

Has the 2015 TDI been modified? Is that a requirement for resale, from a private party(assuming it is from any car dealer)?

[oldpotatoe]

If you are holding $18k cash, I would just go buy a brand new golf sportwagen. A local dealer here (DC area) is offering them at $21.5k out the door. The delta between a 100k VW and that is not worth the cost savings - and the new ones get a 6/72k warranty. Its a small amount to finance but you'll save that in maintenance over the used one in short order. At 100k, any car is going to start showing wear items.

They're available with AWD & 6-speed manuals if you like, otherwise the DSG is very good.

My $.02.

My 2017 GSW, 4Motion, 'S' model was $23.5...DSG, VERY happy with it.

[R3awak3n]

I was the guy that said I would never buy a new car, waste of money yada yada. Bought my 17 sportwagen brand new and its nice to have a new car. Know exactly whats happening to it, can keep it clean if I want to, ect.

I know everyone here is enamored with tdis but gas wagon gets good gas mileage. Easily 35mpg highway if you drive speed limit.

[p nut]

Out of those, I would go with the 2016. I believe it was in 2015 that Toyota beefed up the sound deadening and (IIRC) the glass was more sound absorbent. Check me on that. The infotainment and electronics got updates as well. Also, I love the 7-seater better than 8. No fuss getting to the back row with the two captain chairs. Unless you need passenger capacity, I would go 7.

Here are a few I found:

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4622663?ad_cid=7

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4883486?ad_cid=8

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4893625?ad_cid=16

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4919379?ad_cid=2

(My bro bought a Sienna from this dealership about 4 years ago. Good experience).
https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4018381?ad_cid=6

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4904027?ad_cid=9

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4852558?ad_cid=13

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4875217?ad_cid=16

https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4863731?ad_cid=17

Couple 2014's mixed in, but mostly 15-16's.

[exapkib]

Grateful for the insight shared here.

Yesterday we drove all of the cars mentioned in my latest post. Interesting result. My wife came away feeling like the minivan was just too big--she was nervous driving it. That will go away quickly with more time in the driver's seat, but still . . . She loved LOVED the newer Outback, and I'll be surprised if that's not the direction we end up going. I had a long talk with the dealer about the maintenance of the VW, and they just don't have enough information about what's been taken care of and what hasn't. We both loved driving the car, but it feels risky.

If you're considering a minivan in addition to a sport wagen, why not broaden the search to a compact SUV? We just went through the search process a few months ago for a family wagon replacement (2 kids). We ended up with a Mazda CX5 and are pretty happy with it so far. There are so many options in this category, especially in your pricepoint used.

Partly for fuel efficiency (which is one reason the minivan is a hard sell), but we have considered the Honda CRV (definite possibility if one pops up in our area), Toyota Highlander (tough to find in our price range), Mazda CX5 (glad to hear you like yours--again, just hasn't popped up used in our area), etc.

Nowadays, they call the Outback an SUV. It's gotten so big that's not far off.

i'd still fix your old subaru.

Me too. My neighbor works on cars and is going to walk me through the fix. We'll hold on to it for a while. It's just passed the point in its life in which it can serve as our only car.

Has the 2015 TDI been modified? Is that a requirement for resale, from a private party(assuming it is from any car dealer)?

It has been modified.

If you are holding $18k cash, I would just go buy a brand new golf sportwagen. A local dealer here (DC area) is offering them at $21.5k out the door. The delta between a 100k VW and that is not worth the cost savings - and the new ones get a 6/72k warranty. Its a small amount to finance but you'll save that in maintenance over the used one in short order. At 100k, any car is going to start showing wear items.

They're available with AWD & 6-speed manuals if you like, otherwise the DSG is very good.


I was the guy that said I would never buy a new car, waste of money yada yada. Bought my 17 sportwagen brand new and its nice to have a new car. Know exactly whats happening to it, can keep it clean if I want to, ect.

I know everyone here is enamored with tdis but gas wagon gets good gas mileage. Easily 35mpg highway if you drive speed limit.

We have looked hard at the math on new/used. I'm no Dave Ramsey, but I'm also simple enough (numbers-wise) that I think I want to stick with no car payment.

[C40_guy]

A small update:

--2012 Toyota Sienna LE, 94k miles, $13,000
--2016 Toyota Sienna LE, 62k miles, $19,000
--2012 Toyota Sienna Limited, 63k miles, $17,000 (Rebuilt title)
--2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, 94k miles, $14,000



Don't sweat 200K+ on the VW. You'd die of boredom long before that in any of the Siennas anyway...

You can check the extended warranty on the VW on the dieselgate site (don't have the link offhand...). That car should come with a 4 year/48K warranty on the longblock, emissions, turbo, high pressure fuel pump, adblue pump, etc. That means your exposure to expensive repairs is limited.

And if you have a good private mechanic, the VW will be relatively inexpensive to own over the long haul. And you'll have much more fun in it, not to mention getting great fuel economy.

If you do go diesel, ONLY buy top tier diesel (Mobil, Shell, etc.) from a high volume station. Quality and purity (no water in the fuel) make a big difference in HPFP longevity, and adding diesel additive every tank or two, summer and (different) winter) helps a lot too. Not a big deal, but it's a minor extra step in maintaining the car.

After three years in a '10 VW Touareg 3L TDi, we just moved to a '13 Q7 TDi. I expect to get 300K+ miles out of it, at 28-30 mpg on the highway!