Doc Sues Group Ride After Crash [Archive]

notsew

07-12-2018, 02:40 PM

Like, the whole group.
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22119670/cyclist-sues-group-ride/

Seems crazy. Bir I do think about this when these things happen. We had somebody go down Saturday due to an obstacle not being called. I could see a litigious person suing over that. Seems like we rely on each other's good will alot, even if a lot of the people we ride with shouldn't be relied on for that.

Blown Reek

07-12-2018, 02:57 PM

I hope the Good Doctor gets nothing but ostracization.

MattTuck

07-12-2018, 03:09 PM

Our local ride requires that riders sign a waiver. Sad that it is necessary, but I understand it, and would do the same if I we're a ride organizer.

macaroon

07-12-2018, 03:14 PM

....known for its high speeds and competitive atmosphere.

Midlife crisis; the wife's sleeping with the milkman; how else do you convince yourself you've still got it?!

Mark McM

07-12-2018, 03:16 PM

Our local ride requires that riders sign a waiver. Sad that it is necessary, but I understand it, and would do the same if I we're a ride organizer.

The article makes it sound like there is not (or is no longer) a ride organizer:

"Goldstein’s case will likely hinge on how the law views the Spectrum Ride itself. Named after a long-closed bike shop in Sunnyvale, California, the ride began in the mid-1980s. Known as a “show-and-go” or “racer” ride, it has a simple format: Anyone can show up and then, at a prearranged time, they go."

This is probably why the good doctor is suing other riders rather than the ride organizer.

GregL

07-12-2018, 03:18 PM

We have several local rides, both "sanctioned" and "unsanctioned." The sanctioned rides are organized by the local USA Cycling-affiliated club and requires club membership (which includes a waiver) or a waiver for each guest (limit two rides before membership required). These rides are generally safe and considerate in nature. The unsanctioned rides are essentially races and are known for risky riding and ignoring traffic laws. I avoid them like the plague...

Greg

bigbill

07-12-2018, 03:32 PM

There was a pile up on a VA Beach ride back in 2003, a guy rotated to the front and then sat up instead of continuing the pace (around 30) and the slowdown ejected a guy about 5 riders back. Got torn up pretty bad, I think he got a collarbone as well. A few weeks later he showed up looking for witnesses so he could sue the sponsor shop. Not much cooperation other than "you ride a race pace cutthroat ride, you take your chances". Pretty much ostracized him as well as the jackass that sat up.

Unless there was a malicious act by another rider, I hope this dies a quick death in court.

redir

07-12-2018, 03:40 PM

He was following too close, end of case.

What a DB.

Bostic

07-12-2018, 03:50 PM

This is in my area. When I do my Saturday morning century rides from San Jose up to San Francisco and back I try to leave early enough so that I can get past the Spectrum Rides turnaround point at HW 92 and Cañada road before the swarm of riders comes up on me. There are only a few proper routes to take and that ride intersects with where I ride unless I avoid Cañada road and stick to Alameda de las Pulgas.

I'm not fast, have no desire to be a part of that ride and have come up upon several wipe outs that occurred in front of me on their various sprint points.

It's something I am conscious of when riding in pace lines on double century rides. Do I trust the folk in front of me? Will they call out rocks and debris? I've dodged dropped water bottles before, never fun at high speed.

Veloo

07-12-2018, 04:03 PM

Similar has happened up here that I'm aware of.
Group ride back in the 90's or late 80's, another at a race and one a big charity ride.
Didn't keep up with the outcomes though.

veloduffer

07-12-2018, 04:09 PM

Burnette

07-12-2018, 04:11 PM

This reminds me of the story of the woman suing the cyclist that was riding with her husband, they crashed, he died. Something about mounting bills.

This doctor claims permanent damage that prevents him from being able to do his job and threatens the viability of his practice.

Ugh, this will go on for awhile, or until the lawyers eat the monies. Bad deal for all involved and another reason I'm happy solo for the majority of my rides.

I'm going into the waiver writing business for every occasion, be it two riders or a thousand, call for Burnett's Waiver Butt Saver forms, we're legit and keep you out of, um, trouble.

GregL

07-12-2018, 04:12 PM

bigbill

07-12-2018, 04:23 PM

I used to rides similar to this - just a hammerfest from the go. I stopped after it was getting more reckless - blowing through stop signs and lights so you wouldn’t get dropped.

Now I avoid fast group rides with folks I don’t know - too many cyclists with $10k+ bikes who somehow think they suddenly acquired years of experience and great handling skills.

When I started, the racing vets would give you a stern reprimand if you did something stupid. :no: That doesn’t seem to exist today....

I won't do the local group ride because of the behavior of the riders who are totally locked in on a high average speed. They run lights, cut corners into oncoming traffic, and set up strava segments that involve speeding on a MUT and running stop signs. Idiotic.

None of the local guys have ever raced. One asked me if being able to average 21 mph for a 30 mile ride meant they were ready to race. I asked if their paceline could do 28 mph for an hour at a time with some sprints and bridging mixed in, nope.

jtakeda

07-12-2018, 04:26 PM

Looks like I just picked up an extra curricular research job at SMSC.

Talk about frivolous. I hope this doc gets nothing except a huge bill from his lawyer.
.

Hindmost

07-12-2018, 04:45 PM

There is another local ride, The Noon Ride, that takes place each weekday with the same format. I first rode that one in 1976. Anyone who joins these things and is capable of hanging in has to understand what the situation is--implied assumption of risk.

Many of us at some time decide not to assume the risk.

John H.

07-12-2018, 04:58 PM

There is a group ride near me that recently had a few crashes.
The ride is named after one of the founders- Given this, he might be wise to formally remove his name from the ride.

Shortsocks

07-12-2018, 05:17 PM

ntb1001

07-12-2018, 05:24 PM

Similar has happened up here that I'm aware of.

Group ride back in the 90's or late 80's, another at a race and one a big charity ride.

Didn't keep up with the outcomes though.

If you’re talking about the Toronto area...the Donut Ride had a bad crash years ago. Lawsuit caused the organizing club (Scarborough Cycling Club) to disappear.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HenryA

07-12-2018, 06:33 PM

What a wanker.

joosttx

07-12-2018, 06:45 PM

Looks like this guy is looking for some more GOLD. Wait. That's the name of his company where he is the CMO. Gold-Labs:

https://www.gold-lab.com/about-adrian.php

What a classy guy. I could have made a fortune on crashes over the years....

I know a guy in SF who looks to get into accidents to sue. He told me he had been in 8 accidents and won them all. I promptly distant myself for him.

This is topical as I met with my insurance rep today to go over my policies. I am reminded of how much I am insured because of the simple fact someone could sue me. Fire, Earthquake, Auto, Sewer line, Lawsuit.

Hellgate

07-12-2018, 06:52 PM

I guess he's never had his wheel chopped and forced into the gutter before. Douche...

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charliedid

07-12-2018, 09:27 PM

So L.A.M.E.

54ny77

07-12-2018, 10:21 PM

Totally. Gone are the days of the jersey grab and a stern gtfo.

The guy suing he group, what a DB.

Unbelievable.

I used to rides similar to this - just a hammerfest from the go. I stopped after it was getting more reckless - blowing through stop signs and lights so you wouldn’t get dropped.

Now I avoid fast group rides with folks I don’t know - too many cyclists with $10k+ bikes who somehow think they suddenly acquired years of experience and great handling skills.

When I started, the racing vets would give you a stern reprimand if you did something stupid. :no: That doesn’t seem to exist today....

bikinchris

07-12-2018, 10:24 PM

Bull pucky.
If you stay in the group and crash, you agreed to the danger. END OF DISCUSSION.

If you don't like a group's riding skill, tactics or you are riding above your head, get out of the group.

rustychisel

07-13-2018, 02:37 AM

victim

07-13-2018, 04:59 AM

I used to occasionally join a local Saturday morning groups ride but after being involved in two crashes, neither of which was my fault, I decided to move on.

Both crashes were due to the shear stupidity of inexperienced riders. In the worst crash, a woman locked up her front brakes and did a face plant. Unfortunately, I was behind her and I went down hard trying to avoid running over her. She suffered a coma and spent the night in the ER. I heard there was a major accident (same group ride) recently with one guy spending a few days in the ICU.

I have been riding for several decades without injury. Group rides with a bunch of dumb rookies scare the hell out of me.

I now ride solo.

oldpotatoe

07-13-2018, 06:54 AM

Our local ride requires that riders sign a waiver. Sad that it is necessary, but I understand it, and would do the same if I we're a ride organizer.

BUT that waiver wouldn't prevent anybody from taking this guy's route..I suspect it will settle out of court as the legal fees associated with bringing this to trial would be more $. It'll be for less than $1million..too bad, ya get into this type ride and 'pay yer money, take yer chances'..

PaMtbRider

07-13-2018, 07:02 AM

There are so many clueless riders nowadays we seldom ride with the local clubs. We follow the groups on Facebook and it seems like there is a weekly crash.

Their route choices are many times awful as well. We are blessed with a wonderful network of quiet, back roads yet they will choose to ride on the shoulder of a busy road.

AngryScientist

07-13-2018, 07:08 AM

oldpotatoe

07-13-2018, 07:11 AM

There are a few local hammer rides here that I also dislike. Seems like guys are willing to take real risks for no good reason.

The Big Pro races always have a bunch of crashes because riders are pushing the limits and taking risks as part of a racing strategy. Taking those risks on Sunday morning for no reason? No thanks.

No kidding..a MAMIL and his EGO are big words. Some rides like this here..gen-u-ine pros lineup with WE warriors..go play in traffic up 36 to Carter Lake and back..

batman1425

07-13-2018, 07:47 AM

Another classic example of the state of affairs today where folks are not willing to take responsibility for their own risky behavior. Why do people feel like they can do whatever they want out on public roads and not be responsible for their own decision making?

Interesting thought exercise - what if the riders in question were in cars or on motorcycles instead of bikes. Imagine the reaction to one driver suing another for getting hurt in an unsanctioned racing situation on public roads.

I'm also not getting the lawsuit angle, other than to prove a point. Any competent medical provider should have a more than sufficient disability policy to handle unfortunate circumstances just like this. Though perhaps this person's policy is void if the accident is a result of their own personal negligence - read: engaging in uninsured/unsanctioned sporting events. This reads to me as the rider being "that guy" in the group and the lawsuit is all part of is ego. He would need to have been hurt really bad to be unable to sit behind a microscope anymore.

Red Tornado

07-13-2018, 08:17 AM

The guy's *****ting on his sport and fellow riders. Show up for that kind of ride & you assume a level of risk. Actually, every time you swing a leg over the saddle you assume risk. A waiver I used to sign at races contained the verbiage "As cycling is an inherently dangerous sport......". I know this wasn't a race, but the concept still applies.
I can understand the frustration associated with the physical outcomes of the crash, but it doesn't appear anyone wrecked him on purpose.
Show up & take your chances. No one forced him to participate in this ride. Classless, money-grabbing and (possibly) vengeful lawsuit IMHO.

jtakeda

07-13-2018, 09:07 AM

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

I suppose if after further investigation we found that the guy who caused the crash had a long chain of verifiable evidence that proved he hated and wanted to injure the doc and planned a premeditated attack to kamikaze bike himself on this particular group ride than the lawsuit is not frivolous.

Or if the doc was not apart of the ride at all and was doing his own solo ride when a pack of raging cyclist mowed him down. Sure I can see that.

Other than those circumstances if I see the doctor on the road I will heckle him.

benb

07-13-2018, 09:21 AM

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

The closest thing I could see is actually a ride where the ride leaders do not do a good job of indicating turns and such and end up causing an accident that way at a dangerous intersection.

Hard to say if that would actually ever justify a suit but I've been in some ride (which interestingly were not Type-A competitive rides) where the ride leaders were trying to maintain iron clad control of the group/pace in an effort to be safe, but then were doing a horrible job of signaling turns which was causing chaos at intersections. The fact they were trying to run such a super tight paceline was compounding the chaos.

rwsaunders

07-13-2018, 09:24 AM

I wonder if his bike had disc brakes?

paredown

07-13-2018, 09:28 AM

I wonder if his bike had disc brakes?

LOL--now you're just trolling...

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

GregL

07-13-2018, 09:35 AM

LOL--now you're just trolling...

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....
Yes, people's bike handling skills ARE that bad. Strava KOMs do not necessarily make for good pack skills. The problem starts when "training rides" become unsanctioned races. Too few skills and too much competitiveness. Lots of riders who won't pin on a number in a sanctioned race mixing it up with strong experienced racers. It's a recipe for crashes.

Greg

rwsaunders

07-13-2018, 09:45 AM

LOL--now you're just trolling....

Roger that, but if I were one of the defendants, I might reference one of the bike forums and pull information from the side of the disc brake argument that supported my case. :banana:

notsew

07-13-2018, 10:03 AM

There's some pretty pugnacious, aggressive and mean replies here, and I get that - having been a group rider and having crashed a couple of times

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

I could see some argument for suing the person responsible if the action was taken out of malice, but this dude is suing every single person on the ride.

I can't imagine this will go much of anywhere, but just the idea of having to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer because some a-hole needs to prove a point is frankly a little scary to me.

William

07-13-2018, 10:06 AM

...BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

Maybe I guess. Or if someone intentionally hooked the doc with the express purpose of taking him out. Pretty hard to prove unless you have witnesses who would testify and/or video evidence.

The fact is anytime you ride in a group stuff can happen. I think anyone who has spent time in groups of riders in close proximity training, racing, or even leisurely group rides would agree that it is a possible risk of riding together. Heck, even pros go down sometimes when the groupetto is together. I've been in groups training and racing and I was totally comfortable in a paceline or bumping elbows because I knew these folks knew how to ride and handle their bikes. That doesn't mean stuff can't happen, but I trusted them just as they trusted me. On the flip side I've been in some group rides that riders were so sketchy I would either go to the front and stay there or ride just off the back. Access the situation and act accordingly. You are responsible for you.

Again, unless someone maliciously takes you out and you can prove it you might have something otherwise you accepted the risk of accidental injury when you agreed to ride in a group (by jumping in and participating).

People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. If you don't get that you shouldn't be riding in a group.

:bike:

William

batman1425

07-13-2018, 10:35 AM

Again, unless someone maliciously takes you out and you can prove it you might have something otherwise you accepted the risk of accidental injury when you agreed to ride in a group (by jumping in and participating).William

There was another recent example of this from the widow of a rider in Tennessee that sued the group he was riding with when he crashed and sadly lost his life.

I don't know how comparable the circumstances are and I'm not a lawyer, but last I heard from that case, there was some meat in it for the lawsuit and the original dismissal was overturned. I recall the basis was (correct me if I'm wrong) that a person in that setting has an obligation to act in a "reasonable way" and that if someone fails to do so, with the result being someone gets hurt, they may be held liable. The metric for what is "reasonable" gets murky though. Particularly in the context of an agreed upon "race". Does a touch of wheels when you are on the rivet mean you acted unreasonably? How about missing calling out that pothole because you are in the hooks trying to reel in a move? Taking a drink at the wrong time and losing control? Maybe participation in an unsanctioned event is the "unreasonable" part?

William

07-13-2018, 10:53 AM

There was another recent example of this from the widow of a rider in Tennessee that sued the group he was riding with when he crashed and sadly lost his life.

I don't know how comparable the circumstances are and I'm not a lawyer, but last I heard from that case, there was some meat in it for the lawsuit and the original dismissal was overturned. I recall the basis was (correct me if I'm wrong) that a person in that setting has an obligation to act in a "reasonable way" and that if someone fails to do so, with the result being someone gets hurt, they may be held liable. The metric for what is "reasonable" gets murky though. Particularly in the context of an agreed upon "race". Does a touch of wheels when you are on the rivet mean you acted unreasonably? How about missing calling out that pothole because you are in the hooks trying to reel in a move? Taking a drink at the wrong time and losing control? Maybe participation in an unsanctioned event is the "unreasonable" part?

Is what is considered "reasonable" the same for riders who regularly ride in a group vs someone who doesn't ride looking in?

I dunno?

I default back to...People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. Most people who don't ride would consider riding in such close proximity fast as unreasonable and dangerous.

No one wants to crash. But when you jump into a group of riders that possibility is always there.

William

batman1425

07-13-2018, 11:12 AM

Is what is considered "reasonable" the same for riders who regularly ride in a group vs someone who doesn't ride looking in?

I dunno?

I default back to...People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. Most people who don't ride would consider riding in such close proximity fast as unreasonable and dangerous.

No one wants to crash. But when you jump into a group of riders that possibility is always there.

Great question about the sliding scale or frame of reference to what is appropriate. I don't know how to account for that, and that's why I think the buck should always stop at the individual. It's your responsibility to stay safe - ride defensively. If you cannot be safe because of your own skills, or others that participate with you and you willingly choose to continue thats a risk you are assuming. It gets messy when the laws are all written for motorists and risk/fault is trying to be assigned to a different group of people with different functional, operational, and behavioral constraints.

I'm with you on assuming your own risk, particularly in groups. I'd go one step further and say that most people who don't ride would consider riding on a public roads at all to be unreasonable and dangerous. I've had plenty of motor vehicle drives tell me that when I'm in their way and to get on the sidewalk.

veloduffer

07-13-2018, 12:49 PM

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

So many riders don’t know how to hold their line in a pack; never rode on wet/rain or sandy corners; over-react to in-pack bumping/shoulder rub; sit up without thinking about the riders behind, etc.

No different than how people drive their cars these days.

If you look how teams ride in training rides, it’s not as a pack but double pacelines. These are unsanctioned races, and in racing there are crashes - it’s the nature of racing.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Cloozoe

07-13-2018, 01:16 PM

As if one were needed, yet another reason to ride alone.

jruhlen1980

07-13-2018, 01:42 PM

Great question about the sliding scale or frame of reference to what is appropriate. I don't know how to account for that, and that's why I think the buck should always stop at the individual. It's your responsibility to stay safe - ride defensively. If you cannot be safe because of your own skills, or others that participate with you and you willingly choose to continue thats a risk you are assuming. It gets messy when the laws are all written for motorists and risk/fault is trying to be assigned to a different group of people with different functional, operational, and behavioral constraints.

I'm with you on assuming your own risk, particularly in groups. I'd go one step further and say that most people who don't ride would consider riding on a public roads at all to be unreasonable and dangerous. I've had plenty of motor vehicle drives tell me that when I'm in their way and to get on the sidewalk.

The think about lawsuits though is that what's correct is rarely important.

What matters here isn't what a group of experienced cyclists think is reasonable, it's what a judge or a jury thinks is reasonable. It wouldn't be hard to convince a bunch of non-cycling jurors or a non-cycling judge that behavior that we think is normal is unreasonable.

I mean, if a group of motorcycles were traveling at a high rate of speed within inches of each other, it wouldn't even be a question.

And there may be reasons that we aren't aware of that are driving the lawsuit, these things are rarely as cut and dried as the publicly available information makes it seem.

I'm not defending the choice to bring a lawsuit, but just pointing out that it's not so much of a stretch when viewed from a non-cycling perspective as it might seem.

Ozz

07-13-2018, 01:49 PM

Midlife crisis; the wife's sleeping with the milkman; how else do you convince yourself you've still got it?!

He found out he didn't have "it".....

And there may be reasons that we aren't aware of that are driving the lawsuit!

So now he wants to ruin "it" for everyone else....:cool:

jruhlen1980

07-13-2018, 02:13 PM

He found out he didn't have "it".....

So now he wants to ruin "it" for everyone else....:cool:

Ok

beeatnik

07-13-2018, 02:15 PM

Yes, people's bike handling skills ARE that bad. Strava KOMs do not necessarily make for good pack skills. The problem starts when "training rides" become unsanctioned races. Too few skills and too much competitiveness. Lots of riders who won't pin on a number in a sanctioned race mixing it up with strong experienced racers. It's a recipe for crashes.

Greg

You've just described the World Famous Montrose Ride. But I disagree with your diagnosis. All, ALL the crashes I've witnessed in the last 10 years on WFMR have occurred in JRA sections. And they've been due to inattention or road hazards, essentially causes which can only be mitigated not eliminated. On the hardest of "show and go" (or whatever) rides where you have Pros and higher category racers, the "unsanctioned" race part creates a selection and is essentially the safest part of the ride, regardless of the intensity or recklessness.

The guy who won half a mil suing a bike shop associated with Montrose crashed on the safest section of the ride (into a parked car).

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=2338559&postcount=15

In the 90s or possibly early 2000s, a bike shop owner in LA was sued by a friend who crashed into the back of a car while in the peloton of a large group ride. The bike shop owner was believed to assume liability as many riders would start the ride at his shop. I don't recall all figures but the lawsuit amount may have been 2M. The owner was pressured to settle by his insurance companies for at least half a million. Story goes that the guy who sued continued to show up and do what had come to be thought of as the bike shop's ride.

William

07-13-2018, 02:24 PM

Is what is considered "reasonable" the same for riders who regularly ride in a group vs someone who doesn't ride looking in?

I dunno?

I default back to...People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. Most people who don't ride would consider riding in such close proximity fast as unreasonable and dangerous.

No one wants to crash. But when you jump into a group of riders that possibility is always there.

William

What matters here isn't what a group of experienced cyclists think is reasonable, it's what a judge or a jury thinks is reasonable. It wouldn't be hard to convince a bunch of non-cycling jurors or a non-cycling judge that behavior that we think is normal is unreasonable.

Great, now we will have to abolish all group rides because someone might sue someone else. Also, please sign this waiver before responding to this post about group riding.....

WARNING:
Participation in talk about Cycling Group rides (which may include contact), involves a certain degree of risk for injuries and sudden illnesses. Participation in this group ride may involve contact with others, and may result in the following categories of injury. These include, but may not be limited to:

* Cuts, scrapes, bruises & blisters
* muscle, bone, joint and hernia injuries
* Teeth damage
* puncture wounds.
* Other injuries that may arise from this type of activity
* Death

The purpose of this WARNING is to bring your attention to the existence of potential dangers associated with participation in this activity. In addition there is always the risk of other types of injuries or the risk of injury or death resulting from other causes not specified here. Cycling has unavoidable risks. Bottom line: No suing no one for no reason for nothing no how no way. Only YOU are responsible for YOU. Protect yourself at all times.

Signature: ______________________________________________

William;););):)

William

07-13-2018, 02:35 PM

Btw, I'm not at all making light about injuries or death that might happen as a result of riding, but those of us who have been riding for a long time, especially those who have trained and raced in group situations know there are risks that can turn out bad but we chose to participate anyway. We know the risks and sometimes you go down. It will happen riding in groups and over the years I've seen many crashes, most minor, a few pretty serious and to a tee, not one of them ever sued anyone because they accepted the risks of a dangerous activity.

Again, no one ever wants to crash, most people never wish it on others, but if you are going to ride in an activity where every person involved can cause a crash from a multitude of actions large or small at any second then you need to accept that anything can happen at anytime.

IMO of course.

William

sitzmark

07-13-2018, 04:11 PM

I would think in the absence of a closed course and no formal club/group organizational documentation that the standard rules of the road would apply.

And surely traveling at speed without sufficient distance between vehicles (bicycles in this case) and other potential moving violations occurring during the ride would make it difficult for a group participant (doctor) to demonstrate proper operation, proper road use, and safe/prudent judgement on his own part, thus making it challenging to hold the group or individuals within the group accountable for theirs.

Will be interesting to know the outcome.

bigbill

07-13-2018, 04:21 PM

beeatnik

07-13-2018, 04:23 PM

I think it will go nowhere because of the situation. Following too closely is hard to defend. The Montrose lawsuit involved hitting a parked car, it's not the same as a road hazard not pointed out by a rider in front.

The worst crash I'd seen on a training ride was in Pungo, VA where we took a sweeping turn on a roadway that was covered in grain. Apparently it had spilled out of a trailer sometime during the ride. It was like sliding on ice and two ambulances were required. Nothing legal came of it.

Montrose suit wasn't litigated. Insurance company forced the defendant to settle. That may be the strategy here.

As for the road hazard issue, the parked car wasn't called out. Apparently, the road narrowed just enough that in that section it's a judgment call.

ultraman6970

07-13-2018, 04:26 PM

That doctor looks like got his head a lot more damaged that he expected...

Group rides are group rides, pretty much a f... race...

Peter P.

07-13-2018, 04:27 PM

I can't imagine this will go much of anywhere, but just the idea of having to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer because some a-hole needs to prove a point is frankly a little scary to me.

I'll hazard a guess and suspect the Dr., being a Dr., probably has the financial resources to retain a lawyer for this purpose.

And he's banking on none of the group riders having similar financial resources for a defense, so he's hoping they'll cave under financial pressures and capitulate, perhaps through a homeowner's insurance policy.

It's a game the wealthy can play.

beeatnik

07-13-2018, 04:42 PM

^Yes.

jtakeda

07-13-2018, 04:46 PM

I'll hazard a guess and suspect the Dr., being a Dr., probably has the financial resources to retain a lawyer for this purpose.

And he's banking on none of the group riders having similar financial resources for a defense, so he's hoping they'll cave under financial pressures and capitulate, perhaps through a homeowner's insurance policy.

It's a game the wealthy can play.

I’m not a “go fund me guy” but if i were the named defendant I’d start a go fund me to give that doc and his lawyers the middle finger.

Litigate it and see where I end up.

My guess is it would end up 50/50 with each side paying their own medical expenses and attorney fees.

It’s not like the other riders walked out unscathed.

sitzmark

07-13-2018, 04:49 PM

I'll hazard a guess and suspect the Dr., being a Dr., probably has the financial resources to retain a lawyer for this purpose.

And he's banking on none of the group riders having similar financial resources for a defense, so he's hoping they'll cave under financial pressures and capitulate, perhaps through a homeowner's insurance policy.

It's a game the wealthy can play.

Unless the other participants also have substantial earnings, assets, or a substantial personal insurance umbrella (or a combination of all 3), the doctor may not recover the future earnings losses that he will obviously claim. If the well is dry, no amount of drilling will fill it up.

Ozz

07-13-2018, 04:50 PM

...It’s not like the other riders walked out unscathed.

sounds like grounds for a countersuit....the crash was caused by the doctor and his lack of cycling skill required for the ride.

joosttx

07-13-2018, 04:52 PM

I'll hazard a guess and suspect the Dr., being a Dr., probably has the financial resources to retain a lawyer for this purpose.

And he's banking on none of the group riders having similar financial resources for a defense, so he's hoping they'll cave under financial pressures and capitulate, perhaps through a homeowner's insurance policy.

It's a game the wealthy can play.

1) lawyer hired on contingency.
2) suing him for max of his insurance.
3) insurance handles the lawsuit.

It’s not a rich mans game. It’s really a strategy to get money from the rich but really from insurance companies.

Hellgate

07-13-2018, 05:18 PM

chwupper

07-13-2018, 05:42 PM

As if one were needed, yet another reason to ride alone.

My thoughts exactly. But you still have to deal with the people in group rides who don't give a flying ***** about you or your well-being. :no:

m4rk540

07-13-2018, 06:14 PM

My thoughts exactly. But you still have to deal with the people in group rides who don't give a flying ***** about you or your well-being. :no:

All my crashes which have resulted in surgery or hospitalization have been on solo rides. Horses for courses. Shooting and layup drills in an empty gym can be fun but who prefers that over a good 3 on 3. Anyway, 100% solo rock climbing I get.

joosttx

07-13-2018, 06:49 PM

The amount he's suing for seems low at $1M. A judge knocks it down to $500k, attorney gets a third, he ends up with $325k ish. For a doctor who's ability to work has been impacted, the initial ask seems low.

$1M is a standard coverage for an umbrella policy. Typically these people sue for the max of the persons insurance policy.

Frankwurst

07-13-2018, 07:14 PM

This doctor needs a prostate exam and they should pull his head out while they are rooting around up there. :beer:

Hellgate

07-13-2018, 07:16 PM

$1M is a standard coverage for an umbrella policy. Typically these people sue for the max of the persons insurance policy.Good point.

chwupper

07-13-2018, 07:43 PM

All my crashes which have resulted in surgery or hospitalization have been on solo rides. Horses for courses. Shooting and layup drills in an empty gym can be fun but who prefers that over a good 3 on 3.

Not the case for me. I got put in the hospital (between insurances at the time, 17k bill) by a thoughtless dumbass. So if I get a little pissy when groups of racer wannabes cut me off, I got a good reason.

Anyway, 100% solo rock climbing I get.

Hilarious! :beer:

Ken Robb

07-13-2018, 09:02 PM

I got confused and thought "Doctor Sues" was going to be about the Lorax. I wish.

gasman

07-13-2018, 10:01 PM

Frikkin ridiculous. He should have disability insurance to cover this.

unterhausen

07-13-2018, 11:01 PM

gasman

07-13-2018, 11:14 PM

I remember seeing in a medical journal that physicians may not be able to get affordable disability insurance because as a group there are a decent percentage that decide to quit and they are really good at malingering. And insurance companies don't like that. But it's also possible that he's going after them as well

I hadn’t heard that. Most disability policies these days expect physicians to retrain in a different specialty if they can no longer perform their specialty. At least that’s what I was told.

many_styles

07-14-2018, 01:46 AM

I smell a Fred.

oldpotatoe

07-14-2018, 06:32 AM

1)LOL--now you're just trolling...

2)I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

3)Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

1)-yup:)
2)-yup..been on any 'disease' rides?(with apologies in advance to anybody that is unfortunate to have that disease or any other)..those are downright dangerous.
3)When I DO ride with a group, if a new guy shows up, beware. He 'may' know what he's doing..or may not.

tctyres

07-14-2018, 11:27 AM

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

1)-yup:)
2)-yup..
3)When I DO ride with a group, if a new guy shows up, beware. He 'may' know what he's doing..or may not.

@paredown
It comes down to looking at what someone is doing with their feet and body position. Within a mile of riding behind someone, you'd have a good idea if they are a hazard. It comes down to trust. Lots of people think that it's just pedaling and steering, but it's not. There's a lot of nonverbal communication. People who communicate well with their bodies are really easy to ride behind.

batman1425

07-14-2018, 12:44 PM

I hadn’t heard that. Most disability policies these days expect physicians to retrain in a different specialty if they can no longer perform their specialty. At least that’s what I was told.

Depends on the policy. There are options that don't require a specialty switch or restriction in duties (ex. you are an orthopedic surgeon but have a partial loss of movement of a hand so you can't operate, but you could still perform outpatient clinic duties so you have to do that for the rest of your career). Obviously the premiums go up if you drop those stipulations but those options are available.

likebikes

07-14-2018, 03:30 PM

i'm guessing he'll win (something). lawyers usually don't sue in situations like this unless they're pretty sure they can get a favorable judgement.

blood from a turnip, etc.

Peter P.

07-14-2018, 03:38 PM

@paredown
It comes down to looking at what someone is doing with their feet and body position... There's a lot of nonverbal communication. People who communicate well with their bodies are really easy to ride behind.

So true. Reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink, which theorizes we have an innate sense with reading people within the first 5 seconds of meeting them, through non-verbal cues. But the problem is as man evolved we failed to use this skill so it's devolved some.

While you can't avoid all situations, picking up on those cues and riding appropriately can go a long way to keeping you out of trouble and away from dangerous riders.

oliver1850

07-14-2018, 10:06 PM

Looks like I just picked up an extra curricular research job at SMSC.

Talk about frivolous. I hope this doc gets nothing except a huge bill from his lawyer.
.

I'm with you but not sure of the odds... Know a guy that used to sign up for local centuries, then do them as a race. On one of them he fell on a railroad crossing and broke his leg, then sued the club that organized the century - successfully.