24-hr test ride Argon-18 Gallium Pro

[dddd]

I've been given the opportunity to test-ride and buy a 2010 Gallium Pro that was built up all-new last year with 9100 kit and color-coordinated FSA brakes, and with used R-Sys wheels.
Price seems to be only what the 9100 gruppo might cost online these days, so this has my full attention.

It is a medium frame with 56cm TT and with a 1"-hi headtube extender installed, but on my first try I found my knees hitting the handlebar while riding off of the saddle (I'm a long-legged 5'9" these days).
That's not a new problem for me with used bike purchases, so I flipped the stem for some more height, and seem to have the fit problem fully solved.
Reading a few online tests/reviews of these bikes turned up few concerns, especially on a bike now having been ridden by only two 14x-lb riders.

It seems this Canadian company is still around, so are there any other concerns about such a purchase that a potential buyer would want to know?
I like the looks of the bike, even with it's exposed cabling, and have personally verified that wider 25mm Continental tires fit quite comfortably mounted on the 1250g, i15mm R-Sys rims.

Other than a bit of pad squeal with the Mavic Exalith pads, a second, longer test ride this morning in steeper terrain (with my own softer saddle installed) gave me nothing but reasons to praise the thing. Comfort and responsiveness both seemed top-notch and stability was quite good.

So again, just looking for any reason why I might NOT want to buy this bike, since I am willing to part with two older carbon bikes to make this purchase.

Thanks in advance for any education.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1787/43244044871_375a8cf778_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/926/41434930840_00b49f2a9a_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1790/41435020480_13877d9b87_c.jpg

[ultraman6970]

5'9 tall?? is the saddle height the right one?

[phutterman]

I've got a little newer one (2013 or '14 I think; similar shape before the thin seatstays, but internal routing) that I got second-hand but lightly used, and have about 14k miles on it. I like it - it fits comfortably, I like the slightly lower BB, feels very solid/stiff under me (but I'm on the comparatively small and light side so probably any reasonably modern road bike would). I like how mine looks but it's a relatively sedate mostly black and grey paintjob.

I don't have the headtube tool so will have to procure one or have it done at a shop (there's a local dealer) if I ever want to adjust my fit beyond what I can do readily with different stems. The manufacturer was helpful and sent me the small parts I needed (ports and covers) when I switched mine from mechanical to electronic.

(I'm 5'8" but ride the small/54, FWIW)

[steelbikerider]

I bought a slightly used Gallium Pro team Jelly Belly spare frame. It is a 2015/16 model and I built it with DA 9000. It's a nice ride, stiff and stable at speed. It is a race bike so stack and reach can set up long and low. Take note that the BB drop may be about 5-10 mm more than most frames so if you are racing crits you have a sightly higher chance of a pedal strike.

I like mine and would buy it again.

[dddd]

Thanks for the replies, yes the bike as pictured has been completely fitted to me as I can arrive at.
My fit parameters (now in my late-50's) are a little odd, and I am a competitive cyclist.
I was able to install the headtube extender with my bare hands after pulling off the stem. It did not yet loosen over two bump-strewn rides, but can be tightened even while riding if it did.

[steelbikerider]

I used the 15mm extender on a large frame - no problems. I'm 59 but still able to stretch out with a 14 stem and 4 1/2" of drop. No longer a racer but ride with guys who are. It's not the bike holding me back.

[RedRider]

This discussion should be about the price vs perceived value of the bike.
Since you didn't include the asking price I'll give you a few stand alone reasons not to buy this bike...
- it's an 8 year old carbon frame.
- Dura Ace brake calipers are the best and this bike has FSA.
- Mavic RSys wheels had problems. Lots of online info to read but if these were the later models you should be ok. Carbon spokes.
- If these photos are of your fit position I think you could do better with another size/model.
- while Argon 18 makes some great products they are relatively unknown in many circles reducing demand and resale.

You did ask for reasons not to buy it...
It does have nice bar tape!

Good luck!

[John H.]

I agree with RedRider.
Argon makes a nice bike but a 2010 carbon bike like this is basically worth what you could get the drivetrain and shifters for. And only if said drivetrain and shifters is in nearly new conditions.
2010 vintage brakes, wheels, frame and other parts have very little value.
And then, only if you like the way the bike rides and feel like it fits you well.

This discussion should be about the price vs perceived value of the bike.
Since you didn't include the asking price I'll give you a few stand alone reasons not to buy this bike...
- it's an 8 year old carbon frame.
- Dura Ace brake calipers are the best and this bike has FSA.
- Mavic RSys wheels had problems. Lots of online info to read but if these were the later models you should be ok. Carbon spokes.
- If these photos are of your fit position I think you could do better with another size/model.
- while Argon 18 makes some great products they are relatively unknown in many circles reducing demand and resale.

You did ask for reasons not to buy it...
It does have nice bar tape!

Good luck!

[dddd]

Interesting replies.
The rear wheel went back to Mavic recently for a new hub, after a shop pressed in a too-large axle bearing. Brake surfaces look good and these are a relatively new version. I valued the wheels alone at a few hundred dollars.

The FSA titanium calipers definitely work great, but are still quite new and not of D-A quality. They look fantastic on this bike's graphics however.

I can't think of how to achieve a better fit than this on any bike, the TT length, saddle pos'n and bar height/reach now seem spot-on to my usual preferences for foothills riding.
The bars and levers seem to work great at all hand positions as shown.
The saddle tilt is typical for me on any size race bike I've owned. These saddles I use get leveled at the front half, with only the rear kicking up, and I eventually find an upward tilt limit where I have to lower the nose from as my final setting, very close to where it is now.
I ran it up Mary Lane and McElroy at 20% this morning and almost forgot that I was already going up the steepest part, my hands still on the flattened bar tops as I was already out of the saddle. The 34-30t low gear flattened that hill.

[smead]

Yeah I'm not seeing what's wrong with the fit - I'm in my mid-50s and most of my stems are now flipped up. Proper "race" fit changes a lot between 20 and 60!

[dddd]

I took photos to check on how my position might vary from "normal", probably should have avoided the loose clothing though.
One in the drops, one on the hoods, bike not moving of course!

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1766/41435891330_ede8a9d6ee_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/921/41435892480_d27d2ca371_z.jpg


This is the Scott CR1 that I prefer when I am most fit, it has ample height but really is 1cm longer in the TT than I feel is ideal. The forward saddle would seem to be the result of my high leg length proportion moving my body's center of mass rearward relative to the bb.
At lower pedaling intensity and speed, as on the longest rides, I would prefer a shorter TT and more-rearward saddle position.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7039/26963066903_f066590859_z.jpg

[weisan]

dddd pal, your position looks good.

Don't expect a huge jump in performance. If you feel any, that's probably due to "new toy euphoria" and a slightly better fit.

I get the appeal of Argon. not every other guy is riding it in a group and nice looking paint, but more up to date carbon bike like this Cervelo can be had for a good price as well.

https://www.incycle.com/cervelo-2013-cervelo-r3-frameset.html

[ducati2]

The variable here is price. What is it? Also, none of my business but your bike shots all show big ring/big rear cog. Might want to watch that.

[dddd]

Interesting weisan that you mentioned the Cervelo R3, because the guy selling the Argon had me upgrade his new R5 last year from 6800 to the 9100 gruppo, and somehow I ended up with the BBRight Rotor crankset sitting on my shelf. He loves his Cervelo.

He said that the Argon was just too big for him. I noticed that the toptube height is pretty high on the Argon, and that his Cervelo has a shorter reach than this medium Argon Gallium.
He's 2" shorter than I, so it makes sense to me.

Ducati2, his asking price for this Gallium Pro is $1300, and the 2010 frame was brand-new NOS only last year, bought for around $450 iir. He had me build up the Gallium as well, so I know everything is new with roughly 1k miles on it.
I cross-chain pretty regularly, but never small-to-small or even close. I always shift away from any cross-chained position in short order, but for cresting hills (or riding up the short street to my house) I will cross at least to the 2nd-largest cog as shown in my photos. I often ride much older bikes that tolerate cross chaining without so much as imposing any noticeable friction or noise, but the habit sticks with me somewhat when riding the newer bikes.
I have seen where stronger/heavier riders have apparently shredded their big ring from the out-side in from persistently cross-chaining big-to-big, but my bikes hardly seem to notice!

[GonaSovereign]

It seems this Canadian company is still around...

Indeed they are. Astana will roll out on the bikes in the Tour tomorrow. The Australian track fed just chose the bikes for the track. They're pretty well represented around the world.
https://www.argon18bike.com/api/images/58c6b23efa2653400291732f?width=1600&nostretch=true
http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2018/07/03/1/argon_morton_warr_jones_original_670.jpg

[AngryScientist]

i've been very happy with my Argon-18 bike. if it fits acceptably and the price is right, i would not hesitate to go for it!

[dddd]

Yeah, 1300 and the owners posting here seem happy. I'll be cautious of pedal strikes, my older model has 70mm of bb drop and the newer ones maybe 75mm.

For a medium-sized country, Australia is pretty stongly represented in sport!

I'm thrilled to see Astana rocking those aero Argons, I didn't know.

I took my old standard ('04 Orbea Orca) out for a "control" ride after testing the Argon, and noted the following (both bikes have identical published TT length and angles, but the Orbea has wider bars, a 1cm longer stem, and positions the bars slightly higher):


The 7800 shifters and drivetrain perform well, but feel primitive compared to 9100, and with limited gearing (39x25t).

Higher, wider bars give a roomier feel to the Orbea's cockpit

The Orbea's steering feels "busy" or "flighty", leading to a less comfortable ride feel, yet it still handles major inputs precisely.

The Orbea handles bumps approximately as well as the Gallium, and feels rock-solid in response to pedaling efforts, but feels slightly heavier and relatively sluggish in terms of acceleration.

I'll be testing the Gallium Pro alongside my 2015 Colnago CX-Zero tomorrow morning.

[Blown Reek]

What's the point of the head tube extender? Why don't you just use two spacers in lieu of it? It's essentially doing the same thing.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=dddd;2391733]I've been given the opportunity to test-ride and buy a 2010 Gallium Pro that was built up all-new last year with 9100 kit and color-coordinated FSA brakes,

For a guy who seems to know his way around a bike shop, bigring-bigcog? C'mon..:)

[dddd]

Works fine, but you can see in all of my pictures that the chain's on the 2nd-smallest cog, the 1st cog is hella noisy with the big ring on this Argon Gallium.

I try not to pre-conceive what ratios are usable, it presents itself out on the road, each bike is a little different. FWIW, I blend my own chain lube.

Has there been any quantitative testing data showing cross-chaining losses? My chains and rings do at least last a quite long time and I tend to cross-chain regularly, if briefly (since I can feel the friction).

One more thing is that most of my bikes (even modern ones) can run the entire spread of the cassette without any FD trim required, the result of some subtle alterations to the FD cage in most cases (not always needed).

Small-to-small causes all kinds of problems (real time and theoretical) that I have identified, so totally no-go for me.

Even here in the foothills I've done entire rides (including to and from the ride start) all in the big ring if I have a 30t in back. I've done whole 'cross races in the big ring. Winter training I'll do big-ring hill work on an actual 39# Schwinn Varsity, cross-chaining and all.

Here ya go:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3779/14100992917_8763610fbe_c.jpg


BTW, I've noticed that if you photograph a bike with the chain on the 2nd-biggest cog, it makes the cassette look a little smaller!

[smead]

On a 9/10/11 speed drivetrain, you are starting to cross chain on the 4th largest cog. But not much, I certain spend some time there.., but much less on the 3rd, and in the 2nd, I'd feel way cross chained and only use that in a pinch. At the top, well you are over the top! Especially on climbs.

Use your small ring, stay in the middle of the cassette and your drivetrain will reward you with many more miles.

[dddd]

What's the point of the head tube extender? Why don't you just use two spacers in lieu of it? It's essentially doing the same thing.

Argon18 has a bit to say about their unique headtube extender, something to do with how and where the steer tube flexes, sorta made sense to me to use their extender instead of a tall spacer or stack of spacers.
I've found that too many spacers can lead to creaking at the upper headset, an affliction that, once it sets in, can be difficult to be rid of without then replacing the headset.

The headtube extender does in fact also reduce the radial loading on the headset bearings, for what that's worth.

[charliedid]

You certain that bike isn't too small for you? Sure appears like you are trying to make it bigger than it is.

[fogrider]

I really like the Argon 18! but since your Scott has deep section rims, you may not feel the Argon is faster...

[macaroon]

I'd be tempted to put the saddle down by 10mm or so, then try it again. You might find you'll sit more "in" the bike and you'll be able to flip the stem/get rid of the headtube extender.

[oldpotatoe]

dddd;2392205]Works fine, but you can see in all of my pictures that the chain's on the 2nd-smallest cog, the 1st cog is hella noisy with the big ring on this Argon Gallium.

I try not to pre-conceive what ratios are usable, it presents itself out on the road, each bike is a little different. FWIW, I blend my own chain lube.

Has there been any quantitative testing data showing cross-chaining losses?

Not worried about that and of course 'it works' but big ring to big cog, that angle wears the CR pretty quickly due to the angle the chain comes off the ring.
AND that big ring is pricey..again->:)

[dddd]

You're right about the chainring price, I almost want to get rid of the Shimano big rings because of their resonance (same issue with my CX-Zero), but of course it would be expensive if there even are any good alternative rings for these new-fangled cranksets. I wouldn't mind using an old Stronglight 93 crankset if a narrow chain would get along with it!

A full 10mm saddle drop sounds extreme at this point, I know what you mean macaroon about getting into a tighter tuck with a lower saddle, but I might go as far as a 1cm longer stem flipped normal, if only just to try exploring the fit parameters with maybe an eighth-inch drop at the saddle. Moving the saddle forward another few mm (I'm running out of adjustment) should by itself make the saddle effectively lower depending on the angle of the rails.

Charliedid, yep that's pretty much how it's always been for me, bikes fitted for me always ran at/near the seatpost limit line with me looking for ways to raise the bars. I naturally prefer the proportions of "endurance" bikes with taller headtubes since I am long-legged. Since I am looking for more of a race bike here, my CX-Zero with the very same same 55.5cm TT and 73.5-degree ST angle provides the right geometry with a much taller headtube, but is currently rather heavy even with 6800 kit.
My old Orca (same geo numbers again) is also "stretched tall", almost as much with this Argon, but fits me perfectly as a race bike with 110 neck (might be a 120 neck as shown) as well as I can tell:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7587/26954353083_8c0570a3f1_c.jpg


I could see modernizing the old Orca with newer controls, 11s kit and a modern bar as on the Argon, but that would cost some dough. Suddenly I'm thinking that I might at least want to test it with a modern, narrower bar to see if the steering feel improves, which it might. It's old Ksyriums are 13mm narrow and have heavily-worn sides, but I recently bought some 5-yr-old, 60mm Roval carbon wheels I could use on it.


The CX-Zero now also has a longer 110 neck on it, fits and handles well without the stretched-up look. Too bad it's so heavy (even if perhaps half of it's excess weight is just in the wheels) and that I don't care for the 35mm TrentaCinque bars/stem:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4430/35548774213_e3f321f070_c.jpg

Decisions, decisions. Thankfully the owner of the Argon isn't rushing me as of yet.

[stien]

Carbon is cool but at some point it becomes nearly worthless as you found out. Looks like you can achieve your fit there but I question whether or not you're sacrificing something other than looks to get there. You seem to be near the end of the fitting bell curve for stock bikes. You're also thinking of spending quite a bit of coin on this. For example Joe Wells could build you something that fits perfectly, you could throw on a group and be the happiest rider ever...probably for the same money.

[dddd]

Yeah, remembering what weisan said about "new toy euphoria", I'd pretty much be buying the great parts and slick paint job for $1300.

I gave the 2004 Orca a new lease on life this morning with a tune-up, chain clean/lube, my favorite (WTB Lazer Titanium) saddle and (biggest change of all) lower pressure in the plump 25mm Michelins.
Then I did another of my 1.5hr rides into the hills.
It's almost like a new bike, the steering issue somehow magically went away, and the drivetrain feels slick and quiet with my familiar and preferred older-school 10s gearing. And, yes, compared to the Argon, the Orca has a more normal-appearing fit. It's longer 110mm neck makes a half-inch of additional bar drop feel natural and comfortably more aggressive even with the handlebar I wasn't much liking only the other day.
So yeah, the 26mm (actual width on i13mm rims) Michelins have transformed the Orca, which will only make it harder for me to ever sell it.

[stien]

Try wide rims on that bike (if the tires fit!) and you won't see the need for anything new ever again :)

My MIL's boyfriend has an Orbea with Ardennes Plus SL, 25mm GP4KS2 tires and loves it. He's still on 9s Dura Ace!

[dddd]

Sorry to "bump" this thread one last time, but I finally figured out what was wrong with my fit setup.

I am humbled by my first adjustment (flipping the stem to prevent knee contact with the upper handlebar) having been the wrong choice, as I had a nice (longer @ 11cm vs. 10cm) FSA stem just sitting there not being used.

With the longer stem, my position rotated forward enough to drop the bars significantly, virtually duplicating my Orbea's time-tested good fit.
I ran the saddle fully forward and dropped it a few mm as suggested here (thanks macaroon). The reach to the bars now felt natural and comfortable on this AM's ride (last day off for a while).
So, as I mentioned before, I now have three carbon bikes with same frame angles, TT length and now all with 110mm neck. I'm into all three for about $3k even, spread out over a few years.
And the weight tally (sans pedals) is 15.2lb Argon, 15.9lb Orbea, and ~18lb (ouch) Colnago (gotta work on that one).

I'll close with one last photo and say THANKS to all for delving into my dilemma. Looks like it'll be a keeper.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1801/41498156130_cb974bc456_c.jpg

[oldguy00]

Looks great. I'm actually thinking of buying one of the Nitrogen model frames.

Just out of interest, what is your saddle height?

[dddd]

30" to the center of the saddle top.

I hope you get a good deal on your Nitrogen!

[oldguy00]

Thx. Sometimes I wonder if I am between sizes on the Argons.
My saddle height is 73cm from center of BB to top/center of saddle, so about 3cm lower than yours.

I'm guessing I'd still go with a medium, as the small would have a head tube too short I think...

[dddd]

Note these frames (the Nitrogen too, possibly depending on year) have a contemporary 73.5-degree seat tube, which puts the entire toptube possibly slightly forward of an older bike's to the tune of about .8cm per degree (i.e. steeper ST angle gives greater reach).

And, with the contemporary "relaxed" 72.5-degree HT angle (on the Gallium models), a shorter stem length should be well-tolerated without messing up the steering when riding fast or off of the saddle. A 120mm or longer stem might start to make start to make controlling the steering more of a chore while sprinting or attacking steep hills imho.

Good luck.

[oldguy00]

Thanks, yeah based on the seat angle, and top tube length, I'd likely be going with a 110 stem.