Sagan on Discs Except for the Roubaix Stage

[ptourkin]

Due to potential wheel changes:|

Sagan said he will be racing on disc brakes throughout the Tour, but he is making an exception for the Roubaix stage because of concerns about swapping out wheels in case of a puncture or other mechanicals. Wheel changes can be a bit slower with disc brake-mounted wheels, but that concern is compounded over the cobblestones when punctures are more likely and chaos between team and neutral support ramps up out on the road.

Otherwise, Sagan said he is firmly committed to disc brakes in road racing.

Specialized-backed teams have already been racing with disc brakes since last year.

“You have more control when you are braking with the top speed,” Sagan said. “You have control on the speed and the bike, especially in the wet.”

“I was racing at the Tour de Suisse with the disc brakes, and I can say it’s a big advantage,” he said. “There is a big difference [with braking] compared to the rim brakes.”

http://www.velonews.com/2018/07/tour-de-france/sagan-commits-disc-brakes-not-roubaix-stage_471498

Don't disappoint me with your worst takes.

[Mark McM]

“I was racing at the Tour de Suisse with the disc brakes, and I can say it’s a big advantage,” he said. “There is a big difference [with braking] compared to the rim brakes.”

Said a man whose livelihood depends on promoting the products of his sponsor (and said sponsor is committed to selling new disc brake bikes to consumers).

[SlowPokePete]

Wheel changes can be a bit slower with disc brake-mounted wheels...

This surprises me.

SPP

[fiamme red]

By coincidence, the limited-edition Sagan Collection S-Works Venge also has disc brakes. :)

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/07/specialized-announces-limited-edition-sagan-collection-s-works-venge/

[Mark McM]

This surprises me.

SPP

Disc brake bikes now almost universally use through axles. Through axles have several advantages over QR skewers, but speed in wheel changes isn't among them.

[Jaybee]

I think if he could guarantee the proximity of his team car and a new bike, he would stay with discs. Not possible on the narrow cobbled roads.

[FlashUNC]

https://media.giphy.com/media/C4V08pAw6f1eM/giphy.gif

[R3awak3n]

ok.... why don't they just use tubeless. No more punctures, no more wheel changes.... everyone is happy. No more bitching about disc brakes

[Mark McM]

ok.... why don't they just use tubeless. No more punctures, no more wheel changes.... everyone is happy. No more bitching about disc brakes

Tubeless tires are no less prone to punctures than standard clinchers (or tubulars).

Perhaps you are referring to the common usage of sealant in tubeless tires - but sealant can be used in standard clincher tubes and tubulars as well (in fact, sealant was developed before tubeless tires existed. Regardless, sealant doesn't work with all punctures - sealant doesn't work with large holes and gashes. And in case the tire does go flat, tubeless tires often handle worse than standard clinchers when riding on a flat tire (and both tubeless and clinchers handle worse than tubulars when ridden flat).

[rwsaunders]

ok.... why don't they just use tubeless. No more punctures, no more wheel changes.... everyone is happy. No more bitching about disc brakes

I wonder if the pro teams use sealant in their tubulars.

[R3awak3n]

Tubeless tires are no less prone to punctures than standard clinchers (or tubulars).

Perhaps you are referring to the common usage of sealant in tubeless tires - but sealant can be used in standard clincher tubes and tubulars as well (in fact, sealant was developed before tubeless tires existed. Regardless, sealant doesn't work with all punctures - sealant doesn't work with large holes and gashes. And in case the tire does go flat, tubeless tires often handle worse than standard clinchers when riding on a flat tire (and both tubeless and clinchers handle worse than tubulars when ridden flat).

but how many times are pro riders getting huge gashes during the grand tours?

and yes I meant sealant if they are so concerned about flats why not just use that.

Do agree that tubeless and flat is the worst of the 3.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Tubeless tires are no less prone to punctures than standard clinchers (or tubulars).

Perhaps you are referring to the common usage of sealant in tubeless tires - but sealant can be used in standard clincher tubes and tubulars as well (in fact, sealant was developed before tubeless tires existed. Regardless, sealant doesn't work with all punctures - sealant doesn't work with large holes and gashes. And in case the tire does go flat, tubeless tires often handle worse than standard clinchers when riding on a flat tire (and both tubeless and clinchers handle worse than tubulars when ridden flat).

I'm confused by some of your posts. Do you ride tubeless tires or no?

[93KgBike]

I just picked up the first bike I've ridden with cantis, since the mid '80s. I rode it in the rain and survived; I did get a ton of bugs in my teeth tho'. I guess I'll have to smile less when I'm on it.

Still, disc brakes on mtb have allowed me to do things at speeds that I would have otherwise definitely crashed out on...

[azrider]

Still, disc brakes on mtb have allowed me to do things at speeds that I would have otherwise definitely crashed out on...

But that's because disc brakes make sense on a MTB........they don't make (as much) sense on a road bike...........













https://media.giphy.com/media/7p7z3vxucrNCw/giphy.gif

[Dude]

Regardless of whether disc brakes should be on road bikes or not (they should), Sagan can ride w h a t e v e r he wants. He's not riding discs because Specialized told him to, he's riding them because he's a great bike rider and finds discs perform better for reasons.

Thru-axles/slow wheel changes are now a new design challenge.

[R3awak3n]

I don't think road bikes need discs BUT, the tech is there and is now good enough and anyone that tells me, I rather descend with calipers on carbon over discs on carbon... that guy never has used a disc bike.

[Mark McM]

I'm confused by some of your posts. Do you ride tubeless tires or no?

Some people I ride with use tubeless tires, but after looking at their experiences (and hearing about others), I've decided that the hassle/benefit ratio doesn't make sense for my situation. (as a side note, I might also mention that in addition to standard clincher tires, I use tubulars in a few sitatutions, but here again, I find that the hassle/benefit ratio of tubulars doesn't make sense for most situations.)

[Mark McM]

Regardless of whether disc brakes should be on road bikes or not (they should), Sagan can ride w h a t e v e r he wants. He's not riding discs because Specialized told him to, he's riding them because he's a great bike rider and finds discs perform better for reasons.

Are you sure that is the only reason?

In the past, bicycle product manufacturers have offered bonuses for riders that win races using specific products. These agreements are obviously to develop advertising opportunities, and are generally nto public knowledge. How can you be sure that there are no such bonuses being offered for riders who win using disc brake bikes? (Personally, I'd be more surprised if there aren't such agreements in place for the latest new bike introductions.)


(In a related comment: Olympic athletes often talk about wanting to win models for the glory of their country. What they don't mention is that the USOC and most other national Olympic committees also offer substantial cash bonuses for every medal won. For all top level sporting events, winning is about far more than just athletic glory - there's usually a big direct financial element as well.)

[ptourkin]

Most of Quick Step, including the lesser paid riders, have been on discs since spring. It did look like there was a change in the ToC that went slower than it should have because of neutral support but I don't know anyone who has ridden discs and then said they wished they were still on rim brakes. I'm sure one will chime in now, though.

[Dude]

Are you sure that is the only reason?

In the past, bicycle product manufacturers have offered bonuses for riders that win races using specific products. These agreements are obviously to develop advertising opportunities, and are generally nto public knowledge. How can you be sure that there are no such bonuses being offered for riders who win using disc brake bikes? (Personally, I'd be more surprised if there aren't such agreements in place for the latest new bike introductions.)



I'm not sure that's the only reason, but I think performance is the biggest motivation.

[BobO]

Some people I ride with use tubeless tires, but after looking at their experiences (and hearing about others), I've decided that the hassle/benefit ratio doesn't make sense for my situation. (as a side note, I might also mention that in addition to standard clincher tires, I use tubulars in a few sitatutions, but here again, I find that the hassle/benefit ratio of tubulars doesn't make sense for most situations.)

Around here there are enormous amounts of thorns and needles that wind up on the roads. A single Cholla needle will flat a tire. Most of my favorite rides are in the open desert where that's at it's worst, particularly after monsoons when the crap gets washed out onto the road. Sealants went a long way towards helping with that, but tubeless works better and rides better. Horses for courses I suppose.

[FlashUNC]

I'm not sure that's the only reason, but I think performance is the biggest motivation.

Lol.

He's not some TT obsessive going out there buying his own parts or getting in super stealth Lightweights like Jan Ullrich for an uphill time trial to shave seconds.

1,000% he just rides whatever they give him.

[tommyrod74]

Lol.

He's not some TT obsessive going out there buying his own parts or getting in super stealth Lightweights like Jan Ullrich for an uphill time trial to shave seconds.

1,000% he just rides whatever they give him.

This might be 100% correct - I don’t pretend to know his actual motives - but it’s also true that discs perform better. The only drawback now is neutral support/speed of wheel change, and only at the levels where that matters.

[tommyrod74]

Most of Quick Step, including the lesser paid riders, have been on discs since spring. It did look like there was a change in the ToC that went slower than it should have because of neutral support but I don't know anyone who has ridden discs and then said they wished they were still on rim brakes. I'm sure one will chime in now, though.

I’ve been on a Dura-Ace disc bike for 3 weeks now and wouldn’t think of going back if I had a choice.

[El Chaba]

Note that Sagan is not a GC rider, so the speed of wheel changes is not of the same importance....

[redir]

I think it's awesome!

Because now slightly older carbon tubular rim brake wheelsets can be found for a steal! Woo Hoo!

[saab2000]

I remember when indexed, then integrated brake/shifter levers, arrived. People balked because they said in the event of a crash you wouldn't be able to shift if the derailleur was knocked out of alignment and then people balked because they said they didn't need shifters integrated with their brake levers. There was resistance to clipless pedals by some folks too.

Today only a handful of holdouts (and more power to them) have eschewed these aforementioned developments. The only thing surprising about Sagan riding disc brakes at this year's Tour is that it didn't happen several years ago. Today's bikes have 11 gears in the back and soon 12, shift better than ever and are lighter and more aero than ever and I don't see anyone wishing they still had hot-foot syndrome with clips and straps.

This resistance to technological advancement by some folks is almost like it's 1990 all over again.

[David Kirk]

Thank you for this.

I'll add a little something and then go back info my hole.....for some reason all too many people are looking at discs on road bikes as either an all-good thing or an all-bad thing and they can't seem to grasp that they can be both good and bad at the same time. Compromise I call it. If something is more good than bad....use it. If not.....don't.

To those that think rim brakes will be removed from the market in a year and then civilized life as we know it will come to an end I'm calling BS. Rim brakes are going nowhere. Want a rim brake bike? Buy one. Wait a year and then buy one.....wait 5 years and buy one. One can still buy 5 speed freewheels and toe clips. I think the rim brakes are safe.

The whole chicken little/sky is falling aspect of this is a mystery to me.

As you were.

dave

I remember when indexed, then integrated brake/shifter levers, arrived. People balked because they said in the event of a crash you wouldn't be able to shift if the derailleur was knocked out of alignment and then people balked because they said they didn't need shifters integrated with their brake levers. There was resistance to clipless pedals by some folks too.

Today only a handful of holdouts (and more power to them) have eschewed these aforementioned developments. The only thing surprising about Sagan riding disc brakes at this year's Tour is that it didn't happen several years ago. Today's bikes have 11 gears in the back and soon 12, shift better than ever and are lighter and more aero than ever and I don't see anyone wishing they still had hot-foot syndrome with clips and straps.

This resistance to technological advancement by some folks is almost like it's 1990 all over again.

[weisan]

that's it, dave pal, let it out.

[Mark McM]

Note that Sagan is not a GC rider, so the speed of wheel changes is not of the same importance....

That's right: For Sagan, on some stages the speed of wheel changes is less important than for GC riders, but for other stages, wheel change speed is even more important. On flat stages, if a GC rider gets a flat, they only have to catch up to the back of the peloton to get the same time as their rivals. But if Sagan gets a flat in the same stage, he has to not only regain the peloton, but then he has to have time to fight his back to the front of the race if he wants to get sprint points. I expect Sagan to be riding a disc brake bike on mountain stages (which aren't important to him), but riding a rim brake bike on several of the sprint stages (particularly the cobbled ones).

[Burnette]

I remember when indexed, then integrated brake/shifter levers, arrived. People balked because they said in the event of a crash you wouldn't be able to shift if the derailleur was knocked out of alignment and then people balked because they said they didn't need shifters integrated with their brake levers. There was resistance to clipless pedals by some folks too.

Today only a handful of holdouts (and more power to them) have eschewed these aforementioned developments. The only thing surprising about Sagan riding disc brakes at this year's Tour is that it didn't happen several years ago. Today's bikes have 11 gears in the back and soon 12, shift better than ever and are lighter and more aero than ever and I don't see anyone wishing they still had hot-foot syndrome with clips and straps.

This resistance to technological advancement by some folks is almost like it's 1990 all over again.

So much this. A few diligent and frequent posting curmudgeons seem to want the world to stop right about now. It won't and we benefit from the continued progress, as you have pointed out. If someone prefers to stay in the past, fortunately products they want will still be around for many, many years.

The biggest thing for all to remember is that the bicycle market is saturated, and through this over abundance everyone involved is being catered to, be it old equipment or the very latest and all in between.

As far as Sagan on discs, the move was already going that way years ago, pro cycling is late to the party.

[FlashUNC]

To those that think rim brakes will be removed from the market in a year and then civilized life as we know it will come to an end I'm calling BS. Rim brakes are going nowhere. Want a rim brake bike? Buy one. Wait a year and then buy one.....wait 5 years and buy one. One can still buy 5 speed freewheels and toe clips. I think the rim brakes are safe.


While I agree that rim brakes aren't going away tomorrow, the pace of change for top-level bikes from the major manufacturers is a tad concerning for what that means for component makers going forward. I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg -- are the parts-makers driving this and bike manufacturers are adapting, or are the manufacturers telling parts makers what they want, and how much consumers are demanding discs in all this -- but it is a sign of what's coming in the trickle down that many of these new top level bikes and frames are disc-only, no?

Isn't this just a bit of the canary in the coal mine when it comes to where road bikes are headed? I don't see any new bikes this year touting their placement of the rim brake on the frame for aero effectiveness, but I see a lot of talk about how discs weight/aero penalty is more than offset elsewhere.

It feels less like we'll have a wide-array of options in the future, and more like a mandate from the industry.

[ptourkin]

That's right: For Sagan, on some stages the speed of wheel changes is less important than for GC riders, but for other stages, wheel change speed is even more important. On flat stages, if a GC rider gets a flat, they only have to catch up to the back of the peloton to get the same time as their rivals. But if Sagan gets a flat in the same stage, he has to not only regain the peloton, but then he has to have time to fight his back to the front of the race if he wants to get sprint points. I expect Sagan to be riding a disc brake bike on mountain stages (which aren't important to him), but riding a rim brake bike on several of the sprint stages (particularly the cobbled ones).

Except that the article and he said he would be riding them on every stage except Roubaix, which I believe is Stage 9.

[corky]

Thank you for this.

I'll add a little something and then go back info my hole.....for some reason all too many people are looking at discs on road bikes as either an all-good thing or an all-bad thing and they can't seem to grasp that they can be both good and bad at the same time. Compromise I call it. If something is more good than bad....use it. If not.....don't.

To those that think rim brakes will be removed from the market in a year and then civilized life as we know it will come to an end I'm calling BS. Rim brakes are going nowhere. Want a rim brake bike? Buy one. Wait a year and then buy one.....wait 5 years and buy one. One can still buy 5 speed freewheels and toe clips. I think the rim brakes are safe.

The whole chicken little/sky is falling aspect of this is a mystery to me.

As you were.

dave

But I can’t see larger oems developing 2 versions of their newest bikes. ......it’s happening already.......electric only and only disc braked.....of course the likes of yourself can make whatever your client wants, but there’s no way the big boys will entertain that number of SKUs...... v braked mtbs, cantilever braked cross bikes?.........

[Burnette]

But I can’t see larger oems developing 2 versions of their newest bikes. ......it’s happening already.......electric only and only disc braked.....of course the likes of yourself can make whatever your client wants, but there’s no way the big boys will entertain that number of SKUs...... v braked mtbs, cantilever braked cross bikes?.........

I think it's just a matter of not being beholden to any one brand or brands. If the brand you shop doesn't make a rim brake bike there are tons of others that do and will in the future. Rim brakes aren't going away but you are right in that certain brands and certain models very well may not offer rim.

If that's the case, just go to another brand, there's no shortage of bicycle makers in this world.

[jumphigher]

I remember when indexed, then integrated brake/shifter levers, arrived. People balked because they said in the event of a crash you wouldn't be able to shift if the derailleur was knocked out of alignment and then people balked because they said they didn't need shifters integrated with their brake levers. There was resistance to clipless pedals by some folks too.

Today only a handful of holdouts (and more power to them) have eschewed these aforementioned developments. The only thing surprising about Sagan riding disc brakes at this year's Tour is that it didn't happen several years ago. Today's bikes have 11 gears in the back and soon 12, shift better than ever and are lighter and more aero than ever and I don't see anyone wishing they still had hot-foot syndrome with clips and straps.

This resistance to technological advancement by some folks is almost like it's 1990 all over again.

Yep. Also reminds me going even further back when indexed shifting first came out. So many people saying it was not needed and a waste of time - that a real cyclist didnt need a click to tell them they were in gear. Most here would agree though, they would not want to go back to friction shifting.

Disc brakes are definitely gonna be on all but BSO quality bikes witnin a few years, imo. Like 'em or hate 'em, they're the next big change.

[FlashUNC]

I think it's just a matter of not being beholden to any one brand or brands. If the brand you shop doesn't make a rim brake bike there are tons of others that do and will in the future. Rim brakes aren't going away but you are right in that certain brands and certain models very well may not offer rim.

If that's the case, just go to another brand, there's no shortage of bicycle makers in this world.

This is just a bit Pollyanna no?

When the Big Three are abandoning rim brakes wholesale, how long do we give it before rim brakes on the road are looked at as some anachronism and something that has to be actively sought out to get? (Ie: Going to Mr Kirk and having him build you what you want.)

I mean, a not insignificant number of shops have their collective heads spin when a Campagnolo-equipped bike walks through the door. And that's current stuff.

[Burnette]

This is just a bit Pollyanna no?

When the Big Three are abandoning rim brakes wholesale, how long do we give it before rim brakes on the road are looked at as some anachronism and something that has to be actively sought out to get? (Ie: Going to Mr Kirk and having him build you what you want.)

I mean, a not insignificant number of shops have their collective heads spin when a Campagnolo-equipped bike walks through the door. And that's current stuff.

Again, you just have to look to another brand if the brands/models you shopped don't offer rim brakes.

You may indeed have to let go of a fave model or brand but we're awash in bicycle brands that will continue on with rim brakes.

[David Kirk]

But I can’t see larger oems developing 2 versions of their newest bikes. ......it’s happening already.......electric only and only disc braked.....of course the likes of yourself can make whatever your client wants, but there’s no way the big boys will entertain that number of SKUs...... v braked mtbs, cantilever braked cross bikes?.........

You are of course dead on correct....at some point the Big 3 will move away from certain things and toward others. It makes no sense for them to develop so many SKUs.

In my mind it's little different from the Ford car company saying they will make only SUV's and trucks (with 2 small exceptions). Does this mean I can't buy a station wagon or small 2 door sports car? No...it means I can't buy a Ford. However there are lots of options out there other than Ford.

I don't lose any sleep over the fact that not every bike company will offer every type of bike one might ever want to buy. Supply and demand will dictate that someone steps up and makes what you want. So small companies will fill the niche and your bike won't say Trek on it. Big deal. And if you are in such a small group that none of the smaller companies offer what you want I'm sure you can find a handbuilt guy who will be happy to make what you want.

dave

[Burnette]

Yep. Also reminds me going even further back when indexed shifting first came out. So many people saying it was not needed and a waste of time - that a real cyclist didnt need a click to tell them they were in gear. Most here would agree though, they would not want to go back to friction shifting.

Disc brakes are definitely gonna be on all but BSO quality bikes witnin a few years, imo. Like 'em or hate 'em, they're the next big change.

I do wonder though as rim brakes must surely be cheaper initially that as you post, they will remain on cheaper models. I would wager that rim brakes will also be on higher end bikes for a few years for the, ahem, older cliental that still want them.

It's a bit like manual transmissions (for which I prefer) in cars, if not enough people order/buy them the faster the move away from them goes.

[tuscanyswe]

I’ve been on a Dura-Ace disc bike for 3 weeks now and wouldn’t think of going back if I had a choice.

Wait till they start squeelin .)

[choke]

This is just a bit Pollyanna no?

When the Big Three are abandoning rim brakes wholesale, how long do we give it before rim brakes on the road are looked at as some anachronism and something that has to be actively sought out to get? (Ie: Going to Mr Kirk and having him build you what you want.)

I mean, a not insignificant number of shops have their collective heads spin when a Campagnolo-equipped bike walks through the door. And that's current stuff.I would venture to guess that in less than 5 years that no manufacturer (outside of custom frames) will build/sell even a mid-range bike that has rim brakes. That doesn't really effect me as I'm not going to buy any new bike that's not custom.....the last bike that I purchased from a LBS was a Klein Mantra so I'm definitely not one to shop there.

What will affect me is the trickle down aspect; I probably need to start hoarding good quality rims starting now as I think those will be going away as well. I'm sure that there will still be companies making rim-brake rims in the future but the selection will be limited.

[Mark McM]

What will affect me is the trickle down aspect; I probably need to start hoarding good quality rims starting now as I think those will be going away as well. I'm sure that there will still be companies making rim-brake rims in the future but the selection will be limited.

Better start hoarding non-disc brake hubs with QR axles as well, since these will also have more limited availability.

I'm sure there will be other un-intended side affects of the shift as well. Didn't we just have a conversation about how few frame pumps are available today? That's a side affect of the popularity of carbon frames (which largely can't fit frame pumps). Maybe there are some out there that still like downtube shifters - how many frames come with downtube shifter bosses today?

[jumphigher]

I would venture to guess that in less than 5 years that no manufacturer (outside of custom frames) will build/sell even a mid-range bike that has rim brakes.I'm sure that there will still be companies making rim-brake rims in the future but the selection will be limited.

Yes, I totally agree. People saying that there will always be rim brake bikes being made are being unrealistic imo. I can almost guarantee that you wont be able to buy any quality bike (outside custom) with rim brakes. Also the component manufacturers will stop making the brakes themselves (and rims, as mentioned), so there will be little to choose from. Maybe a few companies like Paul Components will still make an esoteric rim brake, but offerings from Shimano and the like will be just low level big box store quality. All this is JMO of course.

Personally I have no problem with disc brakes at all, they are imo a big improvement. I like rim brakes just fine though, and am looking forward to all the uber cheap rin brake related stuff ending up on CL and eBay once large numbers of people make the switch. :)

[choke]

Better start hoarding non-disc brake hubs with QR axles as well, since these will also have more limited availability.I'm not as concerned about those since I think companies like Phil Wood and WI will still make them....but who knows? I do have some extras laying around though and hubs can usually be rebuilt.

Maybe there are some out there that still like downtube shifters - how many frames come with downtube shifter bosses today?That's one that really bugs me - I prefer DT shifters and I won't own a bike that doesn't give me the option of running them. I couldn't begin to count the number of frames I've seen in the classifieds that I was interested in until I saw that they didn't have DT bosses....

[ultraman6970]

Marketing pushed products have taken control of cycling, bikes arent even close to what they were years ago. Ultra loves d/t shifters too... the problem to me is that nobody developed a nice 11 speed friction d/t shifter or I would have gone that way long time ago.

[saab2000]

I am hoping AMC brings the 2019 Rambler with their sweet 3-on-the-tree transmission. Oh wait........

[m4rk540]

I remember when indexed, then integrated brake/shifter levers, arrived. People balked because they said in the event of a crash you wouldn't be able to shift if the derailleur was knocked out of alignment and then people balked because they said they didn't need shifters integrated with their brake levers. There was resistance to clipless pedals by some folks too.

Today only a handful of holdouts (and more power to them) have eschewed these aforementioned developments. The only thing surprising about Sagan riding disc brakes at this year's Tour is that it didn't happen several years ago. Today's bikes have 11 gears in the back and soon 12, shift better than ever and are lighter and more aero than ever and I don't see anyone wishing they still had hot-foot syndrome with clips and straps.

This resistance to technological advancement by some folks is almost like it's 1990 all over again.

DT shifting is a skill or learned.
Shifting 12 speeds instead of 5 is a skill or learned.
Riding clipless pedals is a skill or learned.

Pulling a brake lever is not a skill, tho one can be skillful in braking. And that's the reason manufacturers believe they can make a market for disc. Why? Because most consumers who are buying their first $1000 plus road bike don't care or know. And guess what, they'll probably ride that bike with platform pedals for a few months. Anyway, it's not about being anti-technology it's about being aware that the strategy of planned obsolescence is still in play in our market economy.

[ptourkin]

I am hoping AMC brings the 2019 Rambler with their sweet 3-on-the-tree transmission. Oh wait........

That was good but this thread just went beyond parody up there ^^^^:banana:

[FlashUNC]

Again, you just have to look to another brand if the brands/models you shopped don't offer rim brakes.

You may indeed have to let go of a fave model or brand but we're awash in bicycle brands that will continue on with rim brakes.

And it ain't that simple either. Parts, support, etc. It's a whole chain that's not just "well don't buy a Cannondale herp a derp." How many shops do you know that subsist on niche brands? Or are primarily selling one of the Spesh/Trek/Giant as their primary road inventory?

The days of a 105 equipped rim brake bike from the shop are numbered.

[saab2000]

And it ain't that simple either. Parts, support, etc. It's a whole chain that's not just "well don't buy a Cannondale herp a derp." How many shops do you know that subsist on niche brands? Or are primarily selling one of the Spesh/Trek/Giant as their primary road inventory?

The days of a 105 equipped rim brake bike from the shop are numbered.

After I read this I’m headed down to the neighborhood Blockbuster Video. I hope they have “Jaws” and “Close Encounters” available on Betamax. I doubt it though because it’s Friday night and when I called them on my rotary dial telephone they told me they only had about a half dozen copies in Betamax left and all the VHS were already gone.

I sure hope laser discs catch on.

[Burnette]

DT shifting is a skill or learned.
Shifting 12 speeds instead of 5 is a skill or learned.
Riding clipless pedals is a skill or learned.

Pulling a brake lever is not a skill, tho one can be skillful in braking. And that's the reason manufacturers believe they can make a market for disc. Why? Because most consumers who are buying their first $1000 plus road bike don't care or know. And guess what, they'll probably ride that bike with platform pedals for a few months. Anyway, it's not about being anti-technology it's about being aware that the strategy of planned obsolescence is still in play in our market economy.

I think it's a huge disservice to your fellow cyclist to say that it's just marketing that is driving disc brakes. In a thread where some are professing love for down tube shifters because they like them and find them useful you have to on the other hand understand that many of us like disc and find them useful also. People moved on from DT sifters and platform pedals because they found the new tech useful just as we do disc now.

You can go back to DT shifters, platform pedals too but to disparage those who have moved on is wrong headed.

[Burnette]

And it ain't that simple either. Parts, support, etc. It's a whole chain that's not just "well don't buy a Cannondale herp a derp." How many shops do you know that subsist on niche brands? Or are primarily selling one of the Spesh/Trek/Giant as their primary road inventory?

The days of a 105 equipped rim brake bike from the shop are numbered.

Herp a derp? Really? OK.

First off bike shops have a whole basket of problems that have absolutely nothing to do with bicycle disc brakes.

Secondly, it is just that simple to just buy from another source that has the product you want. On your computer now you have at your finger tips so many rim specific bicycles and bicycle parts that it would take you days to compile all of them.

If you just must have a rim brake version of a certain Cannondale model that's only disc I say you should simply widen your search, there's plenty of other options.

Again so it sticks, you may very well lose a fave brand and /or model but you will have rim brake option for years. It's not hard.

[ergott]

When the Big Three are abandoning rim brakes wholesale, how long do we give it before rim brakes on the road are looked at as some anachronism and something that has to be actively sought out to get?

How many people on this forum ride bikes from the "Big Three"?

[m4rk540]

I think it's a huge disservice to your fellow cyclist to say that it's just marketing that is driving disc brakes. In a thread where some are professing love for down tube shifters because they like them and find them useful you have to on the other hand understand that many of us like disc and find them useful also. People moved on from DT sifters and platform pedals because they found the new tech useful just as we do disc now.

You can go back to DT shifters, platform pedals too but to disparage those who have moved on is wrong headed.

My point wasn't to disparage consumers who want disc brakes but to rather state the obvious. The disc debate is not, um, fungible with the shift from DT shifting to STI or toe clips to clipless.

[Burnette]

After I read this I’m headed down to the neighborhood Blockbuster Video. I hope they have “Jaws” and “Close Encounters” available on Betamax. I doubt it though because it’s Friday night and when I called them on my rotary dial telephone they told me they only had about a half dozen copies in Betamax left and all the VHS were already gone.

I sure hope laser discs catch on.

By curmudgeon logic Betamax died because of VHS hype, which died by DVD hype, which died by steaming hype. No matter that each leap was better and preferred by consumers, that gets in the way of said logic.

We are currently watching movies with our Amazon Fire stick and are being disparaged by the VHS brigade. Oh bother.

[saab2000]

By curmudgeon logic Betamax died because of VHS hype, which died by DVD hype, which died by steaming hype. No matter that each leap was better and preferred by consumers, that gets in the way of said logic.

We are currently watching movies with our Amazon Fire stick and are being disparaged by the VHS brigade. Oh bother.

Let’s not even touch on vinyl, which must be the friction shifting of the audio world. Pure, yes, but not for me.

[Burnette]

How many people on this forum ride bikes from the "Big Three"?

The funny part is that you read how many hate bikes from the big three and then use them in disc brake threads as, "but the big three won't offer rim brakes, oh dear!".

The bike market is so saturated that if five don't have what you want, the other thirty will.

[Burnette]

My point wasn't to disparage consumers who want disc brakes but to rather state the obvious. The disc debate is not, um, fungible with the shift from DT shifting to STI or toe clips to clipless.

I'll tell you how it is. You don't need STI or clipless but some consumers buy them and prefer them therefore they are produced.

If consumers bought toe clips and bought more DT bikes more would be made.

Look at the wider tire for the road movement, that was consumer driven, Fat bikes, consumer driven. Gravel bikes, totally consumer driven.

Again, to disparage those who prefer and choose disc brakes as people snowed by marketing is indeed a disservice to your fellow cyclist. Just as some prefer carbon rims, titanium frames, Campy shifters, SRAM wireless so to do some cyclists prefer disc brakes.

[m4rk540]

You're confusing technological innovation with market innovation. Nothing wrong with either.

[Burnette]

You're confusing technological innovation with market innovation. Nothing wrong with either.

You're confusing consumer choice with market hype and lack the ability to accept that people will like things that you don't.

Just as people chose STI and clipless so are some now choosing disc.

To peg your choice as technological innovation, well, the guy on the bone shaker thinks you just fell for the hype of marketing.

http://p2.la-img.com/567/33266/13499576_1_l.jpg

[m4rk540]

Burnette, are you trolling?

Ok, one last time...going from friction to STI or from toe clips to clipless involves changing behavior, for better or worse. And hence the debate during those paradigm shifts. Getting consumers to switch from rim to disc only involves choosing a new model not changing how you ride. Therefore, the challenge for the bike companies is both more straightforward/linear and more logistically interesting in terms of marketing. "Newer but the same but better. Disc brakes!"

[ergott]

Getting consumers to switch from rim to disc only involves choosing a new model not changing how you ride.

I'll disagree with this. Disc opened up bikes with different wheel size choices and a significantly different braking behavior on my part. My technical descending times agree. It doesn't have to be either/or. You can like both.

[Burnette]

Burnette, are you trolling?

Ok, one last time...going from friction to STI or from toe clips to clipless involves changing behavior, for better or worse. And hence the debate during those paradigm shifts. Getting consumers to switch from rim to disc only involves choosing a new model not changing how you ride. Therefore, the challenge for the bike companies is both more straightforward/linear and more logistically interesting in terms of marketing. "Newer but the same but better. Disc brakes!"

You're wrong in separating the disc brakes, STI and clipless by degree of knowledge needed to use them. It's irrelevant to their impact . It doesn't have to have a learning curve to be valid useful and preferred by some.

So no, your equations are off.

[m4rk540]

Ergott, I meant that there's no learning curve. You can walk in the bike shop and ride off without any instruction or practice. In other words, it's not a scary technology for the average consumer. Again, I'm talking about the industry in general not specialists or connoisseurs.

And Burnette, all my points have been directed at Saab who equated the "backlash" against disc brakes to the backlash against STI and clipless; it's not the same dynamic.

[saab2000]

Ergott, I meant that there's no learning curve. You can walk in the bike shop and ride off without any instruction or practice. In other words, it's not a scary technology for the average consumer. Again, I'm talking about the industry in general not specialists or connoisseurs.

And Burnette, all my points have been directed at Saab who equated the "backlash" against disc brakes to the backlash against STI and clipless; it's not the same dynamic.

I’m enjoying it. Ride what you like. I know I do so. FWIW, I currently have just one disc brake bike. And it’s mechanical. I’m way behind the times.

Whatever inspires you to ride a bike is good. Honest.

[Burnette]

I'll disagree with this. Disc opened up bikes with different wheel size choices and a significantly different braking behavior on my part. My technical descending times agree. It doesn't have to be either/or. You can like both.

I don't know why some curmudgeons can't fathom that some people actually like disc brakes?

A co-worker who lives in the NC mountains bought a Pinarello F8. He had to take his carbon wheels off. Steep grades equal steep descents, he had to put aluminum rims on that bike.

He told me that he rode a friends Cannondale that had disc brakes. Deeper into the turns, consistent braking, he's sold. Somebody is going to get a deal on a F8 somewhere down the road.

I mean, if we can accept people clutching onto DT shifters, why can't some get that some consumers prefer discs?

[Burnette]

Ergott, I meant that there's no learning curve. You can walk in the bike shop and ride off without any instruction or practice. In other words, it's not a scary technology for the average consumer. Again, I'm talking about the industry in general not specialists or connoisseurs.

And Burnette, all my points have been directed at Saab who equated the "backlash" against disc brakes to the backlash against STI and clipless; it's not the same dynamic.

Oh but it is, the same wrong headed "marketing hype" argument was made against STI and clipless.

Again, it's doesn't have to be difficult to use to be innovative and preferable.

[93KgBike]

The market is not pushing bike consumers from one technology to another; the market is pushing bike consumers from paying cash for the 'top-o-the-line' to signing a financing contract for it.

Technology advances here and there, and the market figures out the multiple in retail price us rubes will pay for them adopting it.

Whether it works, or is better, or necessary is for us plebes to wrangle over.

:p

[Burnette]

The market is not pushing bike consumers from one technology to another; the market is pushing bike consumers from paying cash for the 'top-o-the-line' to signing a financing contract for it.

Technology advances here and there, and the market figures out the multiple in retail price us rubes will pay for them adopting it.

Whether it works, or is better, or necessary is for us plebes to wrangle over.

:p

Halo bikes are just that, top if the line to draw attention to the rest of the line. The majority of bikes sold aren't five figure dentist grade bikes that people are financing.

To the contrary, the rise of internet sales price is bringing erosion that will continue to push prices down.

Again, our market is so saturated with over supply at every price point that sales/deals are happening even before seasons end. There is an awful lot of used bikes in classifieds too. It is and has been a buyers market for bicycles. Be patient, search and wait for the deals.

[R3awak3n]

I really would love to know though, how many of the nay sayers have actually ridden a disc brake bike. And I don't mean none of the spyre bs bike, I am talking a modern road disc brake bike with road hydraulic.

I don't think discs are necessary at all on a road bike and they look goofy for sure but on the mountains give me a disc bike any day, it is just better on the descent.... specially if you have carbon wheels.

[Bostic]

I’m visiting Colorado on vacation. Two days ago at top of Mt. Evans. Today top of Pikes Peak. Most of the bikes I saw were rim brakes. I personally would want to descend these on a disc brake bike. Mainly for the cars on the road.

[ChristianWong]

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed in length:

When will Shimano/SRAM/Campy stop producing groupsets that are mechanical (for braking, at least)? Are the rim-brake devotees going to move to hydro-rim calipers? Seems that is a bigger worry than availability of frames.

Sorry to stoke the fire.

[Lionel]

A co-worker who lives in the NC mountains bought a Pinarello F8. He had to take his carbon wheels off. Steep grades equal steep descents, he had to put aluminum rims on that bike.


What a load of crap !

[Fivethumbs]

No, I heard he really does have a co-worker.

[simonov]

I really would love to know though, how many of the nay sayers have actually ridden a disc brake bike. And I don't mean none of the spyre bs bike, I am talking a modern road disc brake bike with road hydraulic.

I don't think discs are necessary at all on a road bike and they look goofy for sure but on the mountains give me a disc bike any day, it is just better on the descent.... specially if you have carbon wheels.

I'm probably somewhat of a disc naysayer (based on my first hand experience) and I have a bike with Shimano hydro discs. I don't like how they feel and how quickly the braking force ramps up (it's actually easy to lock up the wheels, which is bad). I also hate the hood shape and not just for aesthetics. The rest of my nitpicks have to do with Shimano more than disc. But, I prefer rim brakes hands down at this point. I've heard the newer versions from Shimano and the SRAM and Campy options may feel more gradual and would probably better suit my preferences. And, while I still don't think they're necessary on the road when compared with a nice rim caliper and quality rim/wheel, there's no doubt that disc brakes are a good choice for some riders and for rougher roads.

I should also note that there are still some excellent aluminum rims out there, especially those with exalith or similar coatings, and if more people rode those instead of cheap, entry level carbon and paired them with quality rim calipers, the differences between disc and rim wouldn't feel so great. But between a mid-grade caliper and crappy braking carbon rim and a hydro disc brake, the difference is night and day.

[Burnette]

What a load of crap !

Lionel! Glad to see you post here, loved following your "next bike" threads elsewhere and even though I'm not a Pinarello fan, yours in a big size always looked right.

Pro cyclist and recreational riders alike, even yourself have ridden mountain routes on rim brake/carbon wheeled bikes with no issue. The thing is, some do. There were some Fondos in the US that advised against rim brake/carbon wheels for fear of accidents.

Why is it that some have issues and some don't? Could be local conditions, brake set up, rider aptitude, rider comfort level. My co-worker (he does exist, Ha!) had issue with his rim brakes and carbon wheels and found that the aluminum wheels braked better for him. After riding a disc brake bike, he liked that even more. It's one guy and it doesn't negate the validity of rim brakes, it just goes to show that people will gravitate to different things if they have options, which we do. Both types work.

Could you ride your rim braked/carbon wheeled F10 with him without issues? I believe you probably could. People develop a preference and a confidence over time after trying different things and come to different conclusions. It doesn't make either of you wrong, it just shows that there's more than one way to go.

[Burnette]

no, i heard he really does have a co-worker.

lol!

[Burnette]

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed in length:

When will Shimano/SRAM/Campy stop producing groupsets that are mechanical (for braking, at least)? Are the rim-brake devotees going to move to hydro-rim calipers? Seems that is a bigger worry than availability of frames.

Sorry to stoke the fire.

IMO there will always be mechanical and rim brake bikes for one reason. Costs. Lower trim rim brake and mechanical components, at least currently, are cheaper to manufacture, therefore they provide better margins on the back in and cheaper out the door.

That could change over time though. Over time R&D dollars recouped and scale cuts costs and electronic and disc brakes are on part with rim/mech.

Rim/mech will be around for a long time IMO, they work and are cost effective. But as I said there may be brands and/or models that won't offer them but you have so many bike and component makers on the market now that your needs will be met by others.

[Lionel]

Lionel! Glad to see you post here, loved following your "next bike" threads elsewhere and even though I'm not a Pinarello fan, yours in a big size always looked right.

Pro cyclist and recreational riders alike, even yourself have ridden mountain routes on rim brake/carbon wheeled bikes with no issue. The thing is, some do. There were some Fondos in the US that advised against rim brake/carbon wheels for fear of accidents.

Why is it that some have issues and some don't? Could be local conditions, brake set up, rider aptitude, rider comfort level. My co-worker (he does exist, Ha!) had issue with his rim brakes and carbon wheels and found that the aluminum wheels braked better for him. After riding a disc brake bike, he liked that even more. It's one guy and it doesn't negate the validity of rim brakes, it just goes to show that people will gravitate to different things if they have options, which we do. Both types work.

Could you ride your rim braked/carbon wheeled F10 with him without issues? I believe you probably could. People develop a preference and a confidence over time after trying different things and come to different conclusions. It doesn't make either of you wrong, it just shows that there's more than one way to go.

I have ridden carbon tubulars for 10+ years in the Alps with zero problem. I do not ride clinchers.

[Burnette]

I have ridden carbon tubulars for 10+ years in the Alps with zero problem. I do not ride clinchers.

Co-worker has Dura Ace carbon wheels and in his opinion the aluminum wheels brake far better, disc brakes were better still. You have ridden many a year on carbon tubulars without issue. Neither of you are wrong for your personal preferences.

Like I posted earlier, if our tent can hold members clutching onto DT shifters, it has room for members riding discs.

I'm running on a big tent platform.

[R3awak3n]

I'm probably somewhat of a disc naysayer (based on my first hand experience) and I have a bike with Shimano hydro discs. I don't like how they feel and how quickly the braking force ramps up (it's actually easy to lock up the wheels, which is bad). I also hate the hood shape and not just for aesthetics. The rest of my nitpicks have to do with Shimano more than disc. But, I prefer rim brakes hands down at this point. I've heard the newer versions from Shimano and the SRAM and Campy options may feel more gradual and would probably better suit my preferences. And, while I still don't think they're necessary on the road when compared with a nice rim caliper and quality rim/wheel, there's no doubt that disc brakes are a good choice for some riders and for rougher roads.

I should also note that there are still some excellent aluminum rims out there, especially those with exalith or similar coatings, and if more people rode those instead of cheap, entry level carbon and paired them with quality rim calipers, the differences between disc and rim wouldn't feel so great. But between a mid-grade caliper and crappy braking carbon rim and a hydro disc brake, the difference is night and day.

The shimano also has made the hood smaller. Campy feels exactly the same at tre hood as the non hydro stuff. Funny you say braking comes too fast, duscs are knows for its modularity and if setup correctly you should have a nice power band. I have exactly what you mention, high wuality alum rims (both ceramic coated) and high end brake calipers (ee and record) and they brake amazing but I still dont think they brake as good as a well tunned disc system.


I have ridden carbon tubulars for 10+ years in the Alps with zero problem. I do not ride clinchers.

Just because you have had 0 problems does not mean discs are garbage and that no one should ever use them.

[Davist]

I think that discs are an improvement, in my case. I do agree at the "enthusiast" price point (say $2k-4k) the rim brake options will start to thin out. Look at Canyon, they only have rim brakes at the high end (Ultimate line $6500+, vs the $2800 one I have up through $4k)

I'm sure Lionel's bike brakes well and suit his purposes, and is WELL MAINTAINED, which I can't say about every bike I see in my rides. I'm also certain that it's hard to find a tubular equipped "stock" bike anywhere and some will be more confident on discs.

[oldpotatoe]

Said a man whose livelihood depends on promoting the products of his sponsor (and said sponsor is committed to selling new disc brake bikes to consumers).

Of course..but shape of things to come, for good or ill...No doubt they are paying him more than a few sheckles to ride and win on that bike.

[paredown]

Yep. Also reminds me going even further back when indexed shifting first came out. So many people saying it was not needed and a waste of time - that a real cyclist didnt need a click to tell them they were in gear. Most here would agree though, they would not want to go back to friction shifting.

Disc brakes are definitely gonna be on all but BSO quality bikes witnin a few years, imo. Like 'em or hate 'em, they're the next big change.

Well, there's the development cycle as well--so some resistance is because the stuff may not live up to the claims made for it. I remember playing around with first gen Shimano index in the shop where I worked a lifetime ago--it was not ready for prime time, although great when it did work. (Name escapes me--two cable system). It was also considered a system for newbs because real riders could shift by feel and didn't need the help.

Flash forward a good number of years--and my 'get back to riding' bike came with Ergos. I took to them like a duck to water, and wished we'd had them back in the day. The same bike also had clipless--and I was delighted by those as well.

I have to say though current gen rim brakes are so much better than the old speed modulating devices we used that I'm surprised people need even better stopping power--although I can see the elegance of light carbon rims and a well-engineered through-axle system.

The person who I wish could be around to see them though is my late (machinist) father, who for years talked about adapting a disc brake style system to a bike back in the '70s when we were still racing.

[tommyrod74]

Of course..but shape of things to come, for good or ill...No doubt they are paying him more than a few sheckles to ride and win on that bike.

IMO, having been used to hydraulics on XC and DH bikes since 2000... if all road discs provided was 1) predictable, low-maintenance braking and 2) massively improved tire clearance (my aero disc bike easily clears 30c tires on wide rims), it would be worth the switch.

It opens up the possibility of MUCH more versatile road bikes, and makes it easier for a "one bike solution", within reason.

2 local CX pros have been racing (and winning) the A race at our local Tuesday Night crit series on disc CX bikes running their carbon road wheels and tires. They don't own road bikes anymore, and they race road a lot.

I don't need a specific winter bike anymore now, and could even race gravel (not heavy gravel, maybe, but crush-and-run is more common here anyway) on my bike.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't know why some curmudgeons can't fathom that some people actually like disc brakes?

A co-worker who lives in the NC mountains bought a Pinarello F8. He had to take his carbon wheels off. Steep grades equal steep descents, he had to put aluminum rims on that bike.

He told me that he rode a friends Cannondale that had disc brakes. Deeper into the turns, consistent braking, he's sold. Somebody is going to get a deal on a F8 somewhere down the road.

I mean, if we can accept people clutching onto DT shifters, why can't some get that some consumers prefer discs?

At least for me, that's not the point..it's the 'gotta have disc brakes to______ or else you are a curmudgeon/luddite/fool, type marketing hype that drives me nutz. More from some manufacturers than others. They are here, use them if ya want...I'm not gonna(I have DT shifters too)..:)

signed-luddite/curmudgeon

[weisan]

When it comes to discussions such as these, involving disc brakes, eTap, what have you...best thing to do is not be dogmatic but keep an open mind.

Not everything can be attributed to marketing hype.

Not everything can be considered real progress.

The truth most likely lies somewhere in between.

It's both/and not either/or.

[ergott]

More from some manufacturers than others.

You can't get upset at marketing strategy. Companies have to sell stuff and they have to attract customers. That's their job. They aren't going to sell anything by saying "Hey this new thing is pretty cool. Your current bike is fine, but should you find yourself in the market, come check it out."

[Lionel]

Just because you have had 0 problems does not mean discs are garbage and that no one should ever use them.

Did I ever say that ? I have discs on the Seven.

[oldpotatoe]

You can't get upset at marketing strategy. Companies have to sell stuff and they have to attract customers. That's their job. They aren't going to sell anything by saying "Hey this new thing is pretty cool. Your current bike is fine, but should you find yourself in the market, come check it out."

Point out the advantages then, not have a bigwig at a component company go on record as essentially saying yer a dum****e if you don't embrace discs..I'll try to find the quote. In the shop 2 things I never liked..criticizing any cyclist for their choices and having a 'thing' maker inside or outside rep(tile) not tell me how good their stuff is but how bad their competitors stuff was...adios to them toot sweet.

[Mark McM]

The needs of pro racers may not be same as for the average cyclist, but since this discussion started with Peter Sagan's disc brake bike ...

On this morning's coverage of the Tour, they remarked on the relatively large number of bike changes that had happened out on the road, and opined that disc brakes may be resulting in more entire bike changes (instead of wheel changes) in case of flat tires. Steve Porino then commented that he had talked to several team technical directors, and they said that disc wheel replacement was more sensitive than for rim brakes, and can result in brake rub if the wheel wasn't positioned exactly right, so in many cases they will replace the bike instead of trying to change the wheel. This was followed by a short discussion between Bob Roll and Christian Vandenveld about how disc brakes have made it more difficult for Mavic's neutral service, because now they have more different wheel types they have to have available (different brake types, different rotor sizes, etc.).

It makes one wonder if the pro teams are using disc brakes because they believe the provide a performance advantage, or because their sponsors are requiring them to.

[nickl]

This is possibly one of the most scientific and unbiased testing/analysis of disc vs. rim on a modern road bike. No doubt this adds to the argument that the shift to disc in the pro ranks is more about manufacturer input instead of rider preference. Perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

[oldpotatoe]

The needs of pro racers may not be same as for the average cyclist, but since this discussion started with Peter Sagan's disc brake bike ...

On this morning's coverage of the Tour, they remarked on the relatively large number of bike changes that had happened out on the road, and opined that disc brakes may be resulting in more entire bike changes (instead of wheel changes) in case of flat tires. Steve Porino then commented that he had talked to several team technical directors, and they said that disc wheel replacement was more sensitive than for rim brakes, and can result in brake rub if the wheel wasn't positioned exactly right, so in many cases they will replace the bike instead of trying to change the wheel. This was followed by a short discussion between Bob Roll and Christian Vandenveld about how disc brakes have made it more difficult for Mavic's neutral service, because now they have more different wheel types they have to have available (different brake types, different rotor sizes, etc.).

It makes one wonder if the pro teams are using disc brakes because they believe the provide a performance advantage, or because their sponsors are requiring them to.

I'm assuming they have standardized axle size/type and rotor dimension but even so, unless the hub is identical, replacing wheel, good chance gonna see/hear some rub. And maybe even if the hub is identical..clearances from rotor to pads on disc VERY small and no way to 'open' brake ala rim brake.

Mostly number 2 I would guess but these issues will get resolved, more or less, as the pelOton 'advances' towards an all disc brake fleet...

[R3awak3n]

Another thing no one mentions or talks about is weight of the rider. Heavier rider, brakes need more power to stop. I think this is a place discs have a place and shine.

Stoping a 150lb rider is much easier than stoping a 250lb rider and discs may make more sense here.

This is a discussion that will go on for years here and will lead to the same old same old, some will continue to be naysayers, others will embrace it...

[ergott]

but even so, unless the hub is identical, replacing wheel, good chance gonna see/hear some rub.

I have two identical hub and rotor combinations for my bike. I get brake rub when swapping wheels if I don't adjust caliper.

I just don't see how they can do wheel swaps during a race with a neutral wheel. There are no shims small enough to dial in a team's wheels to that tolerance even trying to swap same brand wheels in.

Next advancement will have to be a floating caliper that self centers.

[bigbill]

I have two identical hub and rotor combinations for my bike. I get brake rub when swapping wheels if I don't adjust caliper.

I just don't see how they can do wheel swaps during a race with a neutral wheel. There are no shims small enough to dial in a team's wheels to that tolerance even trying to swap same brand wheels in.

Next advancement will have to be a floating caliper that self centers.

I had the same issue with my Coconino. One wheel set has WI XMR 6 bolt and the other is CLD Boyd. The fronts are straight swaps with no rub, I had to shim the rear Boyd.

Maybe the teams will provide wheels to the neutral support. Of course then there is disc diameter............

[GregL]

An observation from today's TdF stage: on at least one team using disc brakes (Quick Step), some riders used rim brakes (e.g., Gilbert). My $0.02: team directors know the difficulties with disc brake wheel changes and will (if sponsors allow) only put their premier riders on disc brake bikes. They know this means swapping bikes if a puncture occurs and can only carry so many spare bikes. I don't have a dog in this particular fight. Use whatever brakes you like. But until disc technology allows quick wheel changes without pads rubbing the rotors, I won't be using it on my race bikes.

Greg

[Burnette]

Point out the advantages then, not have a bigwig at a component company go on record as essentially saying yer a dum****e if you don't embrace discs..I'll try to find the quote. In the shop 2 things I never liked..criticizing any cyclist for their choices and having a 'thing' maker inside or outside rep(tile) not tell me how good their stuff is but how bad their competitors stuff was...adios to them toot sweet.

I totally agree that if a company head said that you are basically a dumb person if you didn't like discs then it was from a tone deaf person who has no business doing PR for a company and they were wrong in their assessment. Alienating consumers is a bad move if you're in the business of selling to said consumers.

What I would encourage you to do though is to disassociate what that person said with fellow cyclist who like disc brakes.

I thought many an argument through faulty premise against rim and disc brakes were and are wrong headed for sure but I don't for one minute believe someone is dumb for not liking discs myself, it's always been about preference and acceptance of another's choice. I can live in a world where both exist and we should be accepting of members who choose either. It's just brakes.

The rim/disc debate is akin to the carbon frame versus steel/aluminum/titanium/wood/bamboo frame debates of the past. They all have their place and people will prefer one, some or all and that should be OK. Same with brake choice. Of all of the things we could fall out about it shouldn't be brakes.

In the end we're all cyclist, the method used to stop shouldn't be so divisive as it is today.

[simonov]

The shimano also has made the hood smaller. Campy feels exactly the same at tre hood as the non hydro stuff. Funny you say braking comes too fast, duscs are knows for its modularity and if setup correctly you should have a nice power band. I have exactly what you mention, high wuality alum rims (both ceramic coated) and high end brake calipers (ee and record) and they brake amazing but I still dont think they brake as good as a well tunned disc system.

Yeah, the new shimano group looks to be much improved. I still don't like Shimano's shifting paradigm, but that's unrelated to brakes. One of the reasons I went with discs was the supposedly great modulation, but I really think it's easier to modulate with a rim brake and a quality aluminum wheel. Discs require so little input to go to full stop that it's easy to lock them up. I'm sure I would completely adjust if I only rode that one bike, but where's the fun in that.

[tombtfslpk]

Next advancement will have to be a floating caliper that self centers.

This^^^
I just hope that the first one on the market won't be from that four letter "S" company.
Everyone will badmouth the premise so much that no other manufacturer will attempt to embrace the concept.

[efuentes]

I have two identical hub and rotor combinations for my bike. I get brake rub when swapping wheels if I don't adjust caliper.

I just don't see how they can do wheel swaps during a race with a neutral wheel. There are no shims small enough to dial in a team's wheels to that tolerance even trying to swap same brand wheels in.

Next advancement will have to be a floating caliper that self centers.

The real magic will be floating calipers that wont drag a little annoying bit

[nickl]

This^^^
I just hope that the first one on the market won't be from that four letter "S" company.
Everyone will badmouth the premise so much that no other manufacturer will attempt to embrace the concept.

Perhaps if that four letter “S” company redesigns their disc brake system they will change from the extremely toxic and caustic DOT brake fluid to the much safer and equally effective mineral oil that is used by that other “S” company.

[oldpotatoe]

Perhaps if that four letter “S” company redesigns their disc brake system they will change from the extremely toxic and caustic DOT brake fluid to the much safer and equally effective mineral oil that is used by that other “S” company.

And also used by that 'C' company as well as 'M' company and 'F' company..:)

[Davist]

Point out the advantages then..

I'll give it a try. 1. tire choice. My cannondale supersix evo would only take 25s max (disappointing since I "upgraded" from a caad 10 which would take 28s easy), now my 33s fit easy on the canyon ultimate "race" style frame. Also, some mention you can actually change wheel size, though I have no experience with 650 wheels. 2. one finger braking. While signaling a left turn, (ie using back brake only) I can actually slow the bike to a stop if need be, couldn't do on even new caliper brake pads without significant effort. 3. consistent performance. works the same rain or shine, for much longer time period vs caliper pads which degrade fairly quickly (in my experience, I use Al brake surface wheels DA C24s)


The sales reps you mention doing negative selling above just aren't very good sales people, has nothing to do with products, many industries in general have issues with jr sales people

[sitzmark]

The real magic will be floating calipers that wont drag a little annoying bit

Maybe for road use in dry conditions - gravel or wet and gritty maybe not so much. Usually replace my motor vehicle floating calipers with fixed. With winter use floating mechanicals eventually gum up and stick. ... more maintenance...

[Turbozinke]

It’s all about $$. It makes way more sense for the tour riders to be on rim brakes. Simple tire changes, no slow through axle, no waiting on your team car because the neutral service vehicle is right there. It can be difficult to get the wheel into brake, and on the cassette on the chain. Of this were nascar they would never even think about doing something so slow

But for us regular folks, disc brakes are an obvious win. And since the tour is one gigantic marketing campaign, they are going to cater to the crowd

[oldpotatoe]

It’s all about $$. It makes way more sense for the tour riders to be on rim brakes. Simple tire changes, no slow through axle, no waiting on your team car because the neutral service vehicle is right there. It can be difficult to get the wheel into brake, and on the cassette on the chain. Of this were nascar they would never even think about doing something so slow

But for us regular folks, disc brakes are an obvious win. And since the tour is one gigantic marketing campaign, they are going to cater to the crowd

Another disc brake thread..groovy..

Obvious...kinda, sorta, or not. Heavier, more expensive, harder to set up and maintain(yes, yes, I know it isn't rocket surgery but compared to a Veloce/Centaur/105/6800 setup..MUCH more effort, weight and $)..

Are their advantages to discs? Yup, wet, mucky, high chance of wacking a wheels..tandems, loaded touring(big maybe), lotsa big decents on carbon wheels...while it's rainling..BUT for that WE warrior for his dry, flat, 25 miler on Sunday...maybe not but he'll buy it anyway..gotta get those coffee shop points before the ride. Convert yer old rig to discs? Nope..

Yup, they are here, ride what ya want but
But for us regular folks, disc brakes are an obvious win

Maybe not..:)

[Kirk007]

They'll all stop a competent rider and each has its advantages. I trade off almost daily between a bike with etap, a bike with ee brakes and a bike with Dura Ace 9100. For dry tarmac I like the Dura Ace the best (the 9100 group does kill it). For wet roads or bigger tires yada yada - the discs are great but swapping wheels is a bit of a pain cause as others have pointed out I need to adjust calipers almost every time/ The ee brakes stop fine (if not quite as confidence inspiring as the Dura Ace) and brake pad change is easy if you're switching between carbon rims, aluminum, aluminum with ceramic coating etc.

I'm not sure I agree any longer with the idea of being able to brake later on descents with road discs(on dry pavement anyway); I used to but now think its more a matter of technique.

Each works, each has tradeoffs. If I was down to one jack of all trades, all weather all roads and paths bike it would have discs.

[Burnette]

They'll all stop a competent rider and each has its advantages. I trade off almost daily between a bike with etap, a bike with ee brakes and a bike with Dura Ace 9100. For dry tarmac I like the Dura Ace the best (the 9100 group does kill it). For wet roads or bigger tires yada yada - the discs are great but swapping wheels is a bit of a pain cause as others have pointed out I need to adjust calipers almost every time/ The ee brakes stop fine (if not quite as confidence inspiring as the Dura Ace) and brake pad change is easy if you're switching between carbon rims, aluminum, aluminum with ceramic coating etc.

I'm not sure I agree any longer with the idea of being able to brake later on descents with road discs(on dry pavement anyway); I used to but now think its more a matter of technique.

Each works, each has tradeoffs. If I was down to one jack of all trades, all weather all roads and paths bike it would have discs.

That's my take too, they all work it's just that some will like both or one depending on preference. And there's nothing wrong with either choice.

We have steep hills and if you ride carbon wheels and put serious miles in, disc as they perform well here. Add in the fact that the more you ride the better the chances of getting caught in a bit of rain occasionally and the one bike to do it all is a disc bike for some of us.

[MikeD]

Perhaps if that four letter “S” company redesigns their disc brake system they will change from the extremely toxic and caustic DOT brake fluid to the much safer and equally effective mineral oil that is used by that other “S” company.



Come on with this BS. Tell that to just about every motor vehicle and motorcycle manufacturer to go back to mineral oil for their brake fluids. Oh yeah, WD40 40 IS a lubricant too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[tylercheung]

More specific question - for those of you who know the SoCal road canyon routes, i.e.: Latigo, Chantry flats, Glendora Mtn Road, CA 39 - would regular rides/descents on these favor discs vs. rim?

I did the chantry flats climb and descent for the first time the other day. It was short and brief, but I was on the brakes the whole time - the curves and turns I felt were too sharp to get too much speed on.

[oldpotatoe]

I'll give it a try. 1. tire choice. My cannondale supersix evo would only take 25s max (disappointing since I "upgraded" from a caad 10 which would take 28s easy), now my 33s fit easy on the canyon ultimate "race" style frame. Also, some mention you can actually change wheel size, though I have no experience with 650 wheels. 2. one finger braking. While signaling a left turn, (ie using back brake only) I can actually slow the bike to a stop if need be, couldn't do on even new caliper brake pads without significant effort. 3. consistent performance. works the same rain or shine, for much longer time period vs caliper pads which degrade fairly quickly (in my experience, I use Al brake surface wheels DA C24s)


The sales reps you mention doing negative selling above just aren't very good sales people, has nothing to do with products, many industries in general have issues with jr sales people

I’ll try
1. You are assuming a ‘33’ IS indeed better all around than a 25 or 28...apples to apples, the 33 is heavier.
2. I have not much trouble slowing my Delta brake Merckx when signaling RH turn and slowing from walking speed to a stop. Right front braking. Modern calipers on aluminum rims stop even better. But ya got 4 fingers, ya can use them.
3. Ride a hydro disc in wet, sandy conditions and the pads(much thinner) won’t last long.

The sales guy was a very senior tech/marketing guy, an inside guy, not some jr outside sales rep(tile)..

Ya got discs, and like ‘em, good on ya mate but it isn’t ‘obvious’ most need them nor are those who choose to not use them luddites/curmudgeon or idiots.

[AngryScientist]

good thread. lively discussion, i like that.

on topic:

it seems that the original post, and the point was that sagan was choosing a rim brake bike for the ease of wheel changes in a roubaix stage.

it seems to me, that the bulk majority of the need for tire changes in a roubaix stage would come from pinch flat typed scenarios, where one hits a hard, square edge cobble at speed and compresses the air volume in the tire leading to a flat.

i wonder, what size tire is being run for these stages, and what effect would much larger, supple fast tires would have on the number of flats?

i wonder if running some fat compass 32c tires at higher pressures would still be fast and eliminate a bunch of the flats in roubaix stages?

[nickl]

Come on with this BS. Tell that to just about every motor vehicle and motorcycle manufacturer to go back to mineral oil for their brake fluids. Oh yeah, WD40 40 IS a lubricant too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Your apples and oranges comparison is beyond BS. Motor vehicle manufacturers would love to have their braking systems work satisfactorily with a non-caustic, less toxic substitute for DOT. The solution was obvious to almost everyone else in the cycling industry but someone in Chicago missed the boat and didn't seem to care.

BTW, if you truly like WD40 as a lubricant try using it on your chain.

[bigbill]

good thread. lively discussion, i like that.

on topic:

it seems that the original post, and the point was that sagan was choosing a rim brake bike for the ease of wheel changes in a roubaix stage.

it seems to me, that the bulk majority of the need for tire changes in a roubaix stage would come from pinch flat typed scenarios, where one hits a hard, square edge cobble at speed and compresses the air volume in the tire leading to a flat.

i wonder, what size tire is being run for these stages, and what effect would much larger, supple fast tires would have on the number of flats?

i wonder if running some fat compass 32c tires at higher pressures would still be fast and eliminate a bunch of the flats in roubaix stages?

Today and yesterday stages showed a lot of bike changes or teammates giving up their wheels for flats. I think this year will bring about some changes in design or a rethinking of disc brakes in stage races. FWIW, I have one bike (gravel) with hydraulic disc and it's great, but not really any better at stopping than my caliper brake road bikes. I just wanted bigger tire clearance.

[Davist]

I’ll try
1. You are assuming a ‘33’ IS indeed better all around than a 25 or 28...apples to apples, the 33 is heavier.
2. I have not much trouble slowing my Delta brake Merckx when signaling RH turn and slowing from walking speed to a stop. Right front braking. Modern calipers on aluminum rims stop even better. But ya got 4 fingers, ya can use them.
3. Ride a hydro disc in wet, sandy conditions and the pads(much thinner) won’t last long.

The sales guy was a very senior tech/marketing guy, an inside guy, not some jr outside sales rep(tile)..

Ya got discs, and like ‘em, good on ya mate but it isn’t ‘obvious’ most need them nor are those who choose to not use them luddites/curmudgeon or idiots.

1 I was talking I have more options on my bike, that's all. Sometimes it's nice to have a large variety of rubber fitting, we have some dirt road "races" like the hell of Hunterdon here which work better with 28s or 33s vs 25s
2 you're using motorcycle braking/UK Anzac, which is fine, but a choice outside of "normal" and talking about walking pace, I can slow from 15mph if need be, back only
3 agree but neither will rim brakes, in fact may degrade even faster, as my matthausers did back in the day mtb racing on my campy cantilevers..

as for your sales guy, sorry, but that's not the way to sell, not how I sell things, but off topic..

I didn't disparage you/never would, just giving some counterpoints since you asked..

have fun!

[MikeD]

Your apples and oranges comparison is beyond BS. Motor vehicle manufacturers would love to have their braking systems work satisfactorily with a non-caustic, less toxic substitute for DOT. The solution was obvious to almost everyone else in the cycling industry but someone in Chicago missed the boat and didn't seem to care.



BTW, if you truly like WD40 as a lubricant try using it on your chain.



DOT fluid is not caustic and is not all that toxic either, although it may dissolve paint if not flushed off. The mineral oil in these brakes is not non-toxic either.

There are other bicycle brake manufacturers that use DOT fluid (e.g., Hayes).

Read an MSDS and inform yourself instead of spreading FUD.

[nickl]

DOT fluid is not caustic and is not all that toxic either, although it may dissolve paint if not flushed off. The mineral oil in these brakes is not non-toxic either.

There are other bicycle brake manufacturers that use DOT fluid (e.g., Hayes).

Read an MSDS and inform yourself instead of spreading FUD.

Definition of caustic: 'able to burn or corrode organic tissue by chemical action' The ability to strip paint would classify DOT as caustic.

Bottom line is that mineral is less toxic and safer to the user and the environment.

[shoota]

ok.... why don't they just use tubeless. No more punctures, no more wheel changes.... everyone is happy. No more bitching about disc brakes

I didn't read all 9 pages so if this has already been said I'm sorry.

1) Tubeless doesn't work as well at higher road tire pressures. If they puncture and lose 20-30psi then they will likely need a wheel change anyway.

2) Tubulars can be ridden when flat unlike tubeless/clinchers that cannot. This can be crucial when the timing of the race dictates that the rider REALLY needs to keep moving forward. For instance, to get within the 3km to go banner so they get the same time.

[MikeD]

Definition of caustic: 'able to burn or corrode organic tissue by chemical action' The ability to strip paint would classify DOT as caustic.



Bottom line is that mineral is less toxic and safer to the user and the environment.



No. From an MSDS for DOT 3 fluid :

Skin Contact: May cause minor irritation with itching and possible slight local redness. A single prolonged exposure is not likely to result in the material being absorbed.

Product Summary
The product appears to be of low toxicity, except for possible mild irritant effects in humans.

BFD. It's not like an acid or a base. There's thousands of mechanics out there that deal with DOT brake fluid on a daily basis. No need to be a Chicken Little about it.

All brake fluid mineral oil is not created equal. Each manufacturer has their own proprietary blend and contains additives, such as corrosion inhibitors. It might not be as non-toxic as you think.

You are exaggerating the danger of DOT fluid and perhaps understating the hazards of mineral oil. I wouldn't drink it or pour it on the ground or get it in my eyes, etc. One should take suitable precautions, such as wearing rubber gloves, eye protection, etc. when handling either fluid.

[oldpotatoe]

1 I was talking I have more options on my bike, that's all. Sometimes it's nice to have a large variety of rubber fitting, we have some dirt road "races" like the hell of Hunterdon here which work better with 28s or 33s vs 25s
2 you're using motorcycle braking/UK Anzac, which is fine, but a choice outside of "normal" and talking about walking pace, I can slow from 15mph if need be, back only
3 agree but neither will rim brakes, in fact may degrade even faster, as my matthausers did back in the day mtb racing on my campy cantilevers..

as for your sales guy, sorry, but that's not the way to sell, not how I sell things, but off topic..

I didn't disparage you/never would, just giving some counterpoints since you asked..

have fun!

1. Yup, for you, but I'm happy with 25mm(Merckx) and 27mm(Moots), both tubulars...I ride on dirt roads all the time w/o any issue.
2. I can too(?)..
3.You mentioned bad weather and calipers, I mentioned sandy conditions and discs..what happened 'back in the day' with Matthausers on an MTB apply how?

You didn't, nobody HERE did, but some in the industry are really tiresome as are some disc brake 'true believers' in their evangelical approach to brakes..they're brakes afterall, they slow you down.

Side note seems more discs are in the pelOton at that there tour of france..

I yak with the boys at Campagnolo, NA all the time. They talk to gen-u-ine pros who ride their stuff all the time too. 'What can we improve?'...'better brakes'...just doesn't come up. They are concerned about wheel changes, rotor rub(how many times have you seen these guys ipen their calipers before a climb? Lotz), and reliability. Discs work great when they work, or they don't work at all. No real middle ground. I think the stuff used at the pro level needs to come a ways before they are as simple, cheap, reliable as a road brake caliper. IMHO, of course.

[El Chaba]

I yak with the boys at Campagnolo, NA all the time. They talk to gen-u-ine pros who ride their stuff all the time too. 'What can we improve?'...'better brakes'...just doesn't come up. They are concerned about wheel changes, rotor rub(how many times have you seen these guys ipen their calipers before a climb? Lotz), and reliability. Discs work great when they work, or they don't work at all. No real middle ground. I think the stuff used at the pro level needs to come a ways before they are as simple, cheap, reliable as a road brake caliper. IMHO, of course.

This sums the situation up very nicely, IMHO...

[ptourkin]

It’s all about $$. It makes way more sense for the tour riders to be on rim brakes. Simple tire changes, no slow through axle, no waiting on your team car because the neutral service vehicle is right there. It can be difficult to get the wheel into brake, and on the cassette on the chain. Of this were nascar they would never even think about doing something so slow

But for us regular folks, disc brakes are an obvious win. And since the tour is one gigantic marketing campaign, they are going to cater to the crowd

Neutral service is carrying discs.

[R3awak3n]

I agree that discs are a nightmare when they dont work. Either rubbing or poor breaking or... This may be a good thing for bike shops though as less people want to work on discs, specially hydraulics...


However I think i still rather work on discs than on cantis :)
I love road calipers though, so easy to setup, so simple and they do work great but I like discs too.

[Mark McM]

I agree that discs are a nightmare when they dont work. Either rubbing or poor breaking or... This may be a good thing for bike shops though as less people want to work on discs, specially hydraulics...

I wonder if this is part of the plan.

Just a few decades ago, automobiles were simple enough than anyone with a little mechanical aptitude and access to some generic mechanics tools could maintain and fix their own cars. With all the modern technology built into cars today, it is more difficult for the shade tree mechanic to do their own work.

Until very recently, bicycles (even the fanciest models) were simple enough that anyone with a little mechanical aptitude could maintain and fix their own bikes. With electronic drivetrains and disc brakes (and who knows what else that may come along), fewer people may attempt to maintain their bikes, and would be more likely to bring their bikes to shops for maintenance and repair. (In other words, this may the retail industries way of fighting bicycle consumers move to the internet.)

[R3awak3n]

I wonder if this is part of the plan.

Just a few decades ago, automobiles were simple enough than anyone with a little mechanical aptitude and access to some generic mechanics tools could maintain and fix their own cars. With all the modern technology built into cars today, it is more difficult for the shade tree mechanic to do their own work.

Until very recently, bicycles (even the fanciest models) were simple enough that anyone with a little mechanical aptitude could maintain and fix their own bikes. With electronic drivetrains and disc brakes (and who knows what else that may come along), fewer people may attempt to maintain their bikes, and would be more likely to bring their bikes to shops for maintenance and repair. (In other words, this may the retail industries way of fighting bicycle consumers move to the internet.)

Not necessarily a bad thing for shops. That said, installing ETAP was the easiest thing I have ever done, it was incredibly easy and intuitive. Disc brakes is another thing altogether and I have brought a bike to the shop to have them bled. I am actually going to install my next set myself so we will see how it goes.

I am not bad if it does bring some business to the LBS

[Jaybee]

Bleeding modern discs, especially Shimano, is incredibly easy. Buy their kit, follow the instructions, and remember that the bubbles want to go up. 10 minute job, and totally worth knowing how to do.

[David Kirk]

Bleeding modern discs, especially Shimano, is incredibly easy. Buy their kit, follow the instructions, and remember that the bubbles want to go up. 10 minute job, and totally worth knowing how to do.

Exactly....read the directions and do it once and then you'll wonder what you were worried about.

dave

[tommyrod74]

I wonder if this is part of the plan.

Just a few decades ago, automobiles were simple enough than anyone with a little mechanical aptitude and access to some generic mechanics tools could maintain and fix their own cars. With all the modern technology built into cars today, it is more difficult for the shade tree mechanic to do their own work.

Until very recently, bicycles (even the fanciest models) were simple enough that anyone with a little mechanical aptitude could maintain and fix their own bikes. With electronic drivetrains and disc brakes (and who knows what else that may come along), fewer people may attempt to maintain their bikes, and would be more likely to bring their bikes to shops for maintenance and repair. (In other words, this may the retail industries way of fighting bicycle consumers move to the internet.)

Or, they could just finally be adopting technology that XC bikes have had as stock equipment since pre-Y2K. Occam's Razor and all.

[ptourkin]

Not necessarily a bad thing for shops. That said, installing ETAP was the easiest thing I have ever done, it was incredibly easy and intuitive. Disc brakes is another thing altogether and I have brought a bike to the shop to have them bled. I am actually going to install my next set myself so we will see how it goes.

I am not bad if it does bring some business to the LBS

Just installed some XT that come pre-bled. Less than 30 minutes for both, including trimming the lines and reconnecting. Shimano has made it pretty easy.

[nickl]

No. From an MSDS for DOT 3 fluid :

Skin Contact: May cause minor irritation with itching and possible slight local redness. A single prolonged exposure is not likely to result in the material being absorbed.

Product Summary
The product appears to be of low toxicity, except for possible mild irritant effects in humans.

BFD. It's not like an acid or a base. There's thousands of mechanics out there that deal with DOT brake fluid on a daily basis. No need to be a Chicken Little about it.

All brake fluid mineral oil is not created equal. Each manufacturer has their own proprietary blend and contains additives, such as corrosion inhibitors. It might not be as non-toxic as you think.

You are exaggerating the danger of DOT fluid and perhaps understating the hazards of mineral oil. I wouldn't drink it or pour it on the ground or get it in my eyes, etc. One should take suitable precautions, such as wearing rubber gloves, eye protection, etc. when handling either fluid.


You need to get your facts straight. Latest spec for SRAM is DOT 5.1 not DOT 3.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/products/sram-5-1-dot-hydraulic-brake-fluid-4oz?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIouH_nfiS3AIVUj0MCh1_cw-JEAQYASABEgLY9vD_BwE

Use the least toxic version of mineral oil as specified by Shimano. Specifically as non-toxic, non-caustic and non-corrosive.

https://www.artscyclery.com/Shimano_Mineral_Oil_Brake_Fluid_1L/descpage-SHMO1L.html

Once again. When using the manufacturer's specified product mineral oil is the safest by far when compared to DOT.

[R3awak3n]

Just installed some XT that come pre-bled. Less than 30 minutes for both, including trimming the lines and reconnecting. Shimano has made it pretty easy.

nice. Mine are campy but not worried, they have a really good instructions video so should be cake. Already got all the stuff needed to bleed, ready for this.. now if only my freaking frame arrived.

[Burnette]

I like the sweet metallic paint job on Peter Sagan's Venge, that's a nice looking bike.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tour-de-france-bikes-peter-sagans-specialized-s-works-venge-gallery/

In the article is this gem from Sagan:

On the seat tube, a quote from Sagan says, "If I don't have yellow, I have green. If I don't have green, I have rainbow" and after taking the yellow jersey on stage two of the 2018 Tour de France, Sagan will look to add a seventh green jersey to his collection when he rides into Paris alongside his three rainbow jerseys.

[Burnette]

A video of Sagan's bike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfr0UJ32y6Q

[rustychisel]

are we back on topic yet?

Sagan dropping off the pace during yesterday's TTT was interesting, and he wasn't even riding a disco bike! :bike:

[tombtfslpk]

You need to get your facts straight. Latest spec for SRAM is DOT 5.1 not DOT 3.

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/products/sram-5-1-dot-hydraulic-brake-fluid-4oz?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIouH_nfiS3AIVUj0MCh1_cw-JEAQYASABEgLY9vD_BwE

Use the least toxic version of mineral oil as specified by Shimano. Specifically as non-toxic, non-caustic and non-corrosive.

https://www.artscyclery.com/Shimano_Mineral_Oil_Brake_Fluid_1L/descpage-SHMO1L.html

Once again. When using the manufacturer's specified product mineral oil is the safest by far when compared to DOT.
Please excuse this interruption, but....
ENOUGH!!!! Your OPINIONS are making my head hurt.:eek:
You are both right and you are both wrong.
Actually look at (and read) BOTH MSDS.
Shimano mineral oil hydraulic fluid is a blend and only marginally less toxic than DOT 5.1.
DOT 5.1 is glycol based and a little more "combustible" than Shimano Hydraulic fluid.
You should be wearing gloves and eye protection when using both fluids. You can't aspirate either one. Neither is "expected to be a health hazard when used under normal conditions".
Disposal rules are the same.
Shimano fluid is a hydraulic oil with a mineral oil base stock, Baby Oil is mineral oil. Shimano Hydraulic Fluid is not baby oil. Yet baby oil requires skin and eye protection during manufacturing. Where does that leave us? Pretty much we know the answers.....If it's not tap water (in most cities) you probably need protection.
Please return to today's regularly scheduled Disc Brake thread.:fight:

[nickl]

Please excuse this interruption, but....
ENOUGH!!!! Your OPINIONS are making my head hurt.:eek:
You are both right and you are both wrong.
Actually look at (and read) BOTH MSDS.
Shimano mineral oil hydraulic fluid is a blend and only marginally less toxic than DOT 5.1.
DOT 5.1 is glycol based and a little more "combustible" than Shimano Hydraulic fluid.
You should be wearing gloves and eye protection when using both fluids. You can't aspirate either one. Neither is "expected to be a health hazard when used under normal conditions".
Disposal rules are the same.
Shimano fluid is a hydraulic oil with a mineral oil base stock, Baby Oil is mineral oil. Shimano Hydraulic Fluid is not baby oil. Yet baby oil requires skin and eye protection during manufacturing. Where does that leave us? Pretty much we know the answers.....If it's not tap water (in most cities) you probably need protection.
Please return to today's regularly scheduled Disc Brake thread.:fight:

Shimano lists their mineral oil disc brake fluid as non-toxic, non-caustic and non-corrosive.

No supplier of DOT 5.1 whether it be SRAM or a third party makes that statement for their product.

The above is fact, not opinion.

Both substances need to be disposed of properly but Shimano mineral oil is safer for the user and the environment than DOT 5.1 as reflected in manufacturer's information and the MSDS for both products.

Nobody said that DOT 5.1 is the most toxic product in existence but only that Shimano mineral oil brake fluid is the safer product.

Once again this is fact, not opinion.

[oldpotatoe]

ENOUGH!!!! Your OPINIONS are making my head hurt.
The above is fact, not opinion.

Man oh MAN, I love disc brakes!!:bike:

[rustychisel]

Man oh MAN, I love disc brakes!!:bike:

I love the debates. Man oh MAN, they prosthelytise just like real zealots. So anyway, that Sagan fella....

[oldpotatoe]

I love the debates. Man oh MAN, they prosthelytise just like real zealots. So anyway, that Sagan fella....

"Bike Evangelicals"..some here..I got into an argument once by a guy who said he was a 'bike Lord, High Priest of Bicycles'..yeegads..Bikes are keen and all but 'tools not trophys'..

Sagan..looks on tap for another green jersey...in spite of being on disc brakes..
:):):):):)

[nickl]

"Bike Evangelicals"..some here..I got into an argument once by a guy who said he was a 'bike Lord, High Priest of Bicycles'..yeegads..Bikes are keen and all but 'tools not trophys'..

Sagan..looks on tap for another green jersey...in spite of being on disc brakes..
:):):):):)

In the 1980s someone told me Sean Kelly would be a contender for the Green Jersey if he were riding a Schwinn Varsity instead of his rebadged Vitus.

Not the same in the 21st Century but something similar could be said about Sagan.

[tombtfslpk]

Shimano lists their mineral oil disc brake fluid as non-toxic, non-caustic and non-corrosive.

No supplier of DOT 5.1 whether it be SRAM or a third party makes that statement for their product.

The above is fact, not opinion.

Both substances need to be disposed of properly but Shimano mineral oil is safer for the user and the environment than DOT 5.1 as reflected in manufacturer's information and the MSDS for both products.

Nobody said that DOT 5.1 is the most toxic product in existence but only that Shimano mineral oil brake fluid is the safer product.

Once again this is fact, not opinion.
WOW what a waste of time. It foolish to argue facts with zealots.
How's the saying go about wrestling with pigs?
:fight:

[oldpotatoe]

In the 1980s someone told me Sean Kelly would be a contender for the Green Jersey if he were riding a Schwinn Varsity instead of his rebadged Vitus.

Not the same in the 21st Century but something similar could be said about Sagan.

Team mate of Eddy(Merckx).."Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his"...:)

[R3awak3n]

lol, now we are talking about brake fluid?????


can we just go talk about the new rapha sandals they just released....

[nickl]

WOW what a waste of time. It foolish to argue facts with zealots.
How's the saying go about wrestling with pigs?
:fight:

Trite. You guys are funny but some people cannot distinguish facts from personal bias, that especially includes SRAM fanboys (employees?)

But back to the original post. GO PETER!

[oldpotatoe]

lol, now we are talking about brake fluid?????


can we just go talk about the new rapha sandals they just released....

yummy!!