OT: Money and Pro Sports $$$$$$$$$!

[el cheapo]

Hard to believe a guy gets $154mil to play basketball. Once I worked with troubled youth (juvenile offenders) and many thought that they too could play pro sports and make big bucks. False reality perpetuated by the media. Hey LeBron... another city another dream with kids going down the drain.

[jtbadge]

The money is coming in from fans, tickets, merchandise, tv, sponsorships, regardless of whether we like it or not.

If anything, the payers are underpaid compared to ownership, who are literal billionaires rolling in cash and have the gall to make taxpayers fund new stadiums every 15 years.

[Mark McM]

Hard to believe a guy gets $154mil to play basketball. Once I worked with troubled youth (juvenile offenders) and many thought that they too could play pro sports and make big bucks. False reality perpetuated by the media. Hey LeBron... another city another dream with kids going down the drain.

At least we can point to what LeBron James does that is supposedly worth the money he gets. Kim Kardashian has an income of more than $50 million per year, for um, what exactly?

[.RJ]

Hard to believe a guy gets $154mil to play basketball. Once I worked with troubled youth (juvenile offenders) and many thought that they too could play pro sports and make big bucks. False reality perpetuated by the media. Hey LeBron... another city another dream with kids going down the drain.

I dont follow basketball very much, but the guy is one of the most talented players of our generation and dragged a franchise out of the ****hole to win a title - the team owners must believe its a worthwhile investment that they'll recoup in tickets/promotion/etc - why is he not worth the contract?

[Hellgate]

Hard to believe a guy gets $154mil to play basketball. Once I worked with troubled youth (juvenile offenders) and many thought that they too could play pro sports and make big bucks. False reality perpetuated by the media. Hey LeBron... another city another dream with kids going down the drain.That's one way to look at it. Another is a person who has worked hard to get to this position, and is now being compensated for his skills, talents and ability. I don't see an issue at all. Good work if you can get it.

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[campy man]

... billionaires rolling in cash and have the gall to make taxpayers fund new stadiums every 15 years.

TRUTH :cool:

[el cheapo]

I used Lebron as an example of what is wrong with pro sports in general. Disadvantaged youth with poor role models use pro sports figures as their working example to attain wealth. When reality hits home and they fail a certain percentage turn to crime. Most of us out-grew the idea that we would play pro ball in our childhood. For many poor kids the myth continues well into late adolescence. I used to have teenagers tell me what's the point of working if I can't make tons of money. It's tragic.

[ptourkin]

I used Lebron as an example of what is wrong with pro sports in general. Disadvantaged youth with poor role models use pro sports figures as their working example to attain wealth. When reality hits home and they fail a certain percentage turn to crime. Most of us out-grew the idea that we would play pro ball in our childhood. For many poor kids the myth continues well into late adolescence. I used to have teenagers tell me what's the point of working if I can't make tons of money. It's tragic.

Is this how you're getting your posts up so you can sell something in the classifieds? Some kind of Andy Rooney routine? Next time ask tubulars or clinchers - it's less painful.

[benb]

I'm not sure you can blame Lebron or the owners for the behavior of the disadvantaged youth.

They're all running a business, Lebron James' salary makes sense in that context. He is earning big bucks for his employer and he is wisely rewarded for how much he brings to the business.

What is really crazy IMO is the behavior of the fans that drive the whole thing. They spend fortunes on TV, spend their whole life parked in front of TV, buy huge amounts of merchandise, spent fortunes on tickets, vote in representatives who will provide public charity to the franchise owners, etc, etc, etc.. there is no limit to what the fans will pay to be a part of all of this.

It kind of blows my mind... people think avid cyclists who are actually participating in sports spend a lot of their time & money on cycling. AFAICT there are an order of magnitude more American men who are spectators who spend more time and money spectating than we do participating.

Heck just look at what you can pay for TV alone to get the mega super-duper packages to watch everything.

I've known a lot of people who were somehow spending way more than 20 hours per week watching this stuff and were spending tons of money. Subscribe to everything and watch every minute you can, DVR everything you miss and watch it later. My previous job there was a majority of the company's male employees who managed to watch every single NFL game of the entire season. Not every game their home team played, *every* game. They justified this partly because they were putting a ton of time & money into fantasy football and the bizarre legalized gambling schemes that have popped up around it. And the most avid of them were doing this for quite a few sports. They'd switch gears from talking obsessively about every minute detail of some obscure NFL player's weekend and the next minute they would be deep in the weeds talking about something that happened in NASCAR.

The car guys of course being a whole extra level of weird... I've met more than one person who had a room in their house which was a shrine to their favorite auto racer. I met one guy years ago who had a giant collection of tossed out/worn out NASCAR tires that was filling his garage. He was somehow getting tires out of their garbage, but theirs probably a collectable market for all their trash now just like someone will pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a sweaty shirt one of their favorite pro ball players wore.

I want to say I've seen a few pundits claim spectator sports are the true religion in our country.

[parco]

I'm sure that if they're paying him 154 million that they think they can make more than 154 million by having him on the team.

[FlashUNC]

I used Lebron as an example of what is wrong with pro sports in general. Disadvantaged youth with poor role models use pro sports figures as their working example to attain wealth. When reality hits home and they fail a certain percentage turn to crime. Most of us out-grew the idea that we would play pro ball in our childhood. For many poor kids the myth continues well into late adolescence. I used to have teenagers tell me what's the point of working if I can't make tons of money. It's tragic.

This complaint is as old as professional sports, and still not terribly relevant.

But the pearl-clutching is pretty epic.

[vqdriver]

it's not professional sports. it's all business. for someone who has the talent, they will command the pay. in sports, it's just exaggerated because they have to make a lifetime of earnings in a much smaller window of time. you take the same total pay and stretch it out over a 40 year career and call him a CEO instead of an athlete, then the reaction changes.

to say that the plight of disadvantaged youth (no matter how tragic) is somehow on the shoulders of these big name athletes is actively trying to draw a connection where there is none.

i'm willing to bet that if anyone of us was offered 154M for 4 yrs, every one of us would take it, including the OP

[joosttx]

If anything, the payers are underpaid compared to ownership, who are literal billionaires rolling in cash and have the gall to make taxpayers fund new stadiums every 15 years.

Ha, that is nothing compared to the carried-interest loophole.

I applaud him but not when the season starts.

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[FlashUNC]

it's not professional sports. it's all business. for someone who has the talent, they will command the pay. in sports, it's just exaggerated because they have to make a lifetime of earnings in a much smaller window of time. you take the same total pay and stretch it out over a 40 year career and call him a CEO instead of an athlete, then the reaction changes.

to say that the plight of disadvantaged youth (no matter how tragic) is somehow on the shoulders of these big name athletes is actively trying to draw a connection where there is none.

i'm willing to bet that if anyone of us was offered 154M for 4 yrs, every one of us would take it, including the OP

If anything, especially in the NBA, NFL and NHL, the caps (soft in the NBA's case, hard in the NFL and NHL) depress labor wages in the marketplace. LeBron would make wayyyyy more than $154 mln over 4 if the league was completely uncapped.

538 did a nice job of breaking some of the particulars down: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/russell-westbrook-is-really-worth-344-million-and-other-tales-of-the-nbas-new-salary-cap/

[GregL]

The Romans used gladiatorial combat in the coliseum to keep the masses happy. Today we have professional sports as one method to entertain the masses. Most "reasonable" people will agree that we pay professional athletes way too much and could put the money to better use. Then we pony up and pay absurd amounts of money for cable TV and Superbowl tickets. This is as old as human nature and won't change in the foreseeable future. It's just the business of entertainment.

Greg

[azrider]

Most of us out-grew the idea that we would play pro ball in our childhood.

Could you plllllease come by my work and talk to roughly 80% of the dudes I work with ???

Thanks!!

[el cheapo]

And there you have it...people think it's absolutely normal for sports figures to make hundreds of millions to play a game. Brainwashed by the powers that be...media, players, owners, advertisers, and fans. Where does it end? I hear the garbage man coming down the street and he prevents blight and disease for minimum wage. Now that's bang for your buck!

[joosttx]

And there you have it...people think it's absolutely normal for sports figures to make hundreds of millions to play a game. Brainwashed by the powers that be...media, players, owners, advertisers, and fans. Where does it end? I hear the garbage man coming down the street and he prevents blight and disease for minimum wage. Now that's bang for your buck!

I think the brainwashing is believing young black men should be poor.

[Ozz]

And there you have it...people think it's absolutely normal for sports figures to make hundreds of millions to play a game. ...!

He's not being paid to play a game....he is being paid to make money for the guy paying him by entertaining the masses. It doesn't really matter what he is doing if people are willing to pay to see him do it.

The real question is more along the lines of: Why do people spend so much money on entertainment?

[Plum Hill]

Completely ridiculous.
The poor kid working at the nursing home taking care of the elderly gets paid minimum wage. She’s my hero, not LeBron James, Kim BigAss, Kanye East, or all the others doing essentially nothing for big incomes. It’s all about hero worship, and we’re picking the wrong heroes.

[jumphigher]

What is really crazy IMO is the behavior of the fans that drive the whole thing. They spend fortunes on TV, spend their whole life parked in front of TV, buy huge amounts of merchandise, spent fortunes on tickets, vote in representatives who will provide public charity to the franchise owners, etc, etc, etc..

Totally agree. None of these 'overpaid' players would be so overpaid if not for the above.

[FlashUNC]

How dare the laborers in a highly lucrative industry make a salary a few orders of magnitude below their true worth to the venture.

Where do they get off?

[echappist]

Completely ridiculous.
The poor kid working at the nursing home taking care of the elderly gets paid minimum wage. She’s my hero, not LeBron James, Kim BigAss, Kanye East, or all the others doing essentially nothing for big incomes. It’s all about hero worship, and we’re picking the wrong heroes.

more like idol worship and idolatry.

I like the spectacle of pro sports and watch it as a diversion, but I don't approach it with the mindset that I somehow benefit materially when the team/player/rider I root for wins.

Some Philly Eagles fan was quoted as saying he no longer feel like a loser after Philly won the superbowl. Well guess what, your city (or the city where the team is based) shelled out $250 million in bonds to construct Lincoln Financial (and another 250 million for the phillies). Return of a pittance compared to the investment put in.

[colker]

Totally agree. None of these 'overpaid' players would be so overpaid if not for the above.

Masters and slaves. Classic.

[joosttx]

Masters and slaves. Classic.

No one is saying that. What we are saying is that they deserve the dough and there is a valid argument saying basketball players deserve more.

[Marc40a]

I'm not sure you can blame Lebron or the owners for the behavior of the disadvantaged youth.

They're all running a business, Lebron James' salary makes sense in that context. He is earning big bucks for his employer and he is wisely rewarded for how much he brings to the business.

What is really crazy IMO is the behavior of the fans that drive the whole thing. They spend fortunes on TV, spend their whole life parked in front of TV, buy huge amounts of merchandise, spent fortunes on tickets, vote in representatives who will provide public charity to the franchise owners, etc, etc, etc.. there is no limit to what the fans will pay to be a part of all of this.

It kind of blows my mind... people think avid cyclists who are actually participating in sports spend a lot of their time & money on cycling. AFAICT there are an order of magnitude more American men who are spectators who spend more time and money spectating than we do participating.

Heck just look at what you can pay for TV alone to get the mega super-duper packages to watch everything.

I've known a lot of people who were somehow spending way more than 20 hours per week watching this stuff and were spending tons of money. Subscribe to everything and watch every minute you can, DVR everything you miss and watch it later. My previous job there was a majority of the company's male employees who managed to watch every single NFL game of the entire season. Not every game their home team played, *every* game. They justified this partly because they were putting a ton of time & money into fantasy football and the bizarre legalized gambling schemes that have popped up around it. And the most avid of them were doing this for quite a few sports. They'd switch gears from talking obsessively about every minute detail of some obscure NFL player's weekend and the next minute they would be deep in the weeds talking about something that happened in NASCAR.

The car guys of course being a whole extra level of weird... I've met more than one person who had a room in their house which was a shrine to their favorite auto racer. I met one guy years ago who had a giant collection of tossed out/worn out NASCAR tires that was filling his garage. He was somehow getting tires out of their garbage, but theirs probably a collectable market for all their trash now just like someone will pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a sweaty shirt one of their favorite pro ball players wore.

I want to say I've seen a few pundits claim spectator sports are the true religion in our country.

Word.

[ducati2]

Ask the average person about the players on their favorite team and they will quote every statistic imaginable. Then ask them to name their senators. Usually results in a fail. Too each his own but I think there is misplaced emphasis on the importance of pro sports in our society. Truly the opiate of the masses. My opinion only of course.

[FriarQuade]

No one is saying that. What we are saying is that they deserve the dough and there is a valid argument saying basketball players deserve more.

I'd like to see the books of a professional sports team and see where all the money goes. Especially in baseball, where stadiums are only full on opening day and the during the playoffs. Next step would be comparing a major market team to a small market team in the same league.

One things for sure, cycling is screwed in comparison to any other professional sport.

[GregL]

I'd like to see the books of a professional sports team and see where all the money goes.
Here's where some of Mark Cuban's cash goes...

http://s5625.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Boeing-767-277-Mark-Cuban.jpg

[Mikej]

Funniest part is they can’t afford the stadiums to play in, so we pick up that tab, of part of it, so people can have jobs serving $30 nachos.

[madsciencenow]

It’s just business in a capitalistic economy and I bet we are all culpable if we look hard enough.


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[Mikej]

It’s just business in a capitalistic economy and I bet we are all culpable if we look hard enough.


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Example?

[FlashUNC]

Funniest part is they can’t afford the stadiums to play in, so we pick up that tab, of part of it, so people can have jobs serving $30 nachos.

Oh they can, they absolutely can.

But why pay for it when you can get someone else to pay for it for you?

[joosttx]

Example?

I designed pesticides for 15 years. Albeit safer for the environment and for humans but a lot of people believed I sold my soul for money. I disagree.

Coming home from vacation this weekend we drove by The Chevron Richmond Refinery. At the entrance there were four flags flying on their three flag poles, the United States, State of California, Chevron, and the Rainbow Pride flags.


My Dad gave me some "love" advice once that I think applies more broadly and to people who think inaction allows them a higher moral authority

"You are never going to understand what love is, alone in your room, jerking off to a Playboy magazine". -EJJ.

[Mzilliox]

the weird thing is a society who supports this, over something more useful, simply for entertainment, because we are lonely or bored or something, and nature is too naturey for some.

[R3awak3n]

the weird thing is a society who supports this, over something more useful, simply for entertainment, because we are lonely or bored or something, and nature is too naturey for some.

but those are people choices... if they get happyness with sports you can't fault them. Remember they can say the same thing about you and I.

I think Lebron earned what he has so good for him. I do think sports people get paid way too much, but so do doctors, and actors and lawyers, and.....

[Mzilliox]

but those are people choices... if they get happyness with sports you can't fault them. Remember they can say the same thing about you and I.

I think Lebron earned what he has so good for him. I do think sports people get paid way too much, but so do doctors, and actors and lawyers, and.....

Yes, people choices, and i find it odd what society values these days compared to what would give us actual benefit beyond entertainment. is what it is. and yes, i can fault people for putting so much import in sport. its a bit of a waste of common resources.

no, doctors do not get paid too much. the others you mention do. only people who do not live with doctors think doctors get paid too much. When you live with a doctor and realize the rest of humanity thinks of them as machines who are always working and have the only answers that they then most likely wont listen to, you realize how much time not at work doctors spend working.

and the usefulness of a doctor gos far beyond these other professions. anyone can argue law, thats boring. but not anyone can cut into another hman with confidence. thats special and utilitarian beyond basketball. there is no denying this.

Doctors are the true eitles of society, trading a normal life to learn more than the rest of us so they can heal us. thats the way it is and always has been. sure some are crap and greedy, but most are very good at what they do. know who gets paid way too much? CEOs of nearly every company.

[ftf]

Yes, people choices, and i find it odd what society values these days compared to what would give us actual benefit beyond entertainment. is what it is. and yes, i can fault people for putting so much import in sport. its a bit of a waste of common resources.

no, doctors do not get paid too much. the others you mention do. only people who do not live with doctors think doctors get paid too much. When you live with a doctor and realize the rest of humanity thinks of them as machines who are always working and have the only answers that they then most likely wont listen to, you realize how much time not at work doctors spend working.

and the usefulness of a doctor gos far beyond these other professions. anyone can argue law, thats boring. but not anyone can cut into another hman with confidence. thats special and utilitarian beyond basketball. there is no denying this.

Doctors are the true eitles of society, trading a normal life to learn more than the rest of us so they can heal us. thats the way it is and always has been. sure some are crap and greedy, but most are very good at what they do. know who gets paid way too much? CEOs of nearly every company.

No teachers=no doctors. And teachers get paid nothing, even most professors are getting paid far less than a doctor, and well they also help create doctors. And no not anyone can teach... Not anyone can impart knowledge and wisdom in the minds of the young and old. Teachers only get paid for their time in the classroom, not prep, grading, etc.

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[echappist]

but those are people choices... if they get happyness with sports you can't fault them. Remember they can say the same thing about you and I.

I think Lebron earned what he has so good for him. I do think sports people get paid way too much, but so do doctors, and actors and lawyers, and.....
when we (broad we as cyclists, runners, gym rats, etc) spend time to exercise, we are doing something active and improving ourselves (on the whole, overuse and traumatic injuries aside). What does a spectator do when s/he watches a match? Zilch, other than passively consuming entertainment. You mention that they can be happy from watching sports, yet as sport is a zero-sum game, at least half of fans won't be happy from watching sports. And even if one receives happiness from watching, that sense of elation is fleeting, and the next day you are still confronted with the travails of life.

of course we (and I in particular) are not immune from enjoying passive entertainment. When I fold laundry or cook, things go much easier when I'm watching sports or TV. But the difference between us and most fans is that we actively decided to carve out time to exercise, whereas they couldn't be bothered other than in January.

The older i've gotten, the more cynical i've become regarding the concept of choice. One could live in an authoritarian state and have no choices, or one could live in a free society where advertisers and various other entities contrive to have you make the wrong choices, and most people end up making the wrong choices. It takes volition to read the WSJ or the NYT, but it's so much easier to watch TV anchors drone about vapid and vacuous topics on the morning news. Ditto with areas such as what people eat, what people do with their spare time, and how people spend money...

It’s just business in a capitalistic economy and I bet we are all culpable if we look hard enough.


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it's actually social welfare for the extremely wealthy. I've heard that many owners take the operating losses expressly for the purpose of a tax write off.

Even under Thatcherian England, there's still more social welfare for those who need it and Hobbesian capitalism for those in pro sports. To wit, the lowest ranking teams in a division get demoted to the next division down, while the highest ranking team get promoted. Most teams actually pay for the stadia in which they play and suffer the consequences of building a new stadium. Many thought that the once mighty Arsenal of London got stuck in the doldrums due to belt-tightening from building a new stadium.

Contrast that to the U.S.: social welfare for the owners, while cities can't come up with money to pay for basic necessities, all the while it's those living on the fringe of the economy who repeatedly have to pick from the least worst from myriad of bad scenarios.

[Mr. Pink]

If it bothers you, don't patronize the sport as a fan. Thats what Ive done. Only sport I somewhat follow is baseball, but, never go to stadiums and never buy merchandise. The money disgusts me. Don't get me started about college sports, and now, its high school sports on TV. And little league!

[echappist]

Doctors are the true eitles of society, trading a normal life to learn more than the rest of us so they can heal us. thats the way it is and always has been. sure some are crap and greedy, but most are very good at what they do. know who gets paid way too much? CEOs of nearly every company.

Of course CEOs get paid way too much, and I'd posit that those who are even worse than CEOs are the vulture private equity guys who buy a company using debt that gets added to the book of the purchased company, strip out the valuable part of the purchased company, and then let the company they bought buckle under the tremendous debt that they themselves saddled on the purchased company. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that U.S. doctors make considerably more compared to their counterparts in the EU and even Canada.

Of course, if you are talking about primary care doctors and pediatricians, then yes, most of them don't receive fair compensation.

[ptourkin]

There have been two long threads on here about people being paid too much: Lebron and Marissa Meyer. I wonder what the connection is?

If there was a Carl Icahn or Steve Mnuchin thread, I apologize.

[verticaldoug]

Contrast that to the U.S.: social welfare for the owners, while cities can't come up with money to pay for basic necessities, all the while it's those living on the fringe of the economy who repeatedly have to pick from the least worst from myriad of bad scenarios.

It's the reason we don't have a flat tax. The concept of tax expenditures benefits the wealthy so why move to a flat tax. Same thing for US corporations. We were suppose to get a corporate tax cut for a clamp down on loopholes (tax expenditures). It didn't happen.

[joosttx]

No teachers=no doctors. And teachers get paid nothing, even most professors are getting paid far less than a doctor, and well they also help create doctors. And no not anyone can teach... Not anyone can impart knowledge and wisdom in the minds of the young and old. Teachers only get paid for their time in the classroom, not prep, grading, etc.

Median elementary school salary in my district is $100K before benefits and pension. I pay an extra $4000 in taxes and donations to make sure the teachers and schools are funded. In forty years that $160K from me.

My point is if you think teachers are not paid enough. Do something about it.... like writing a check.

[FlashUNC]

It's almost like one's compensation and value to society as a whole are not at all related, and one's paycheck isn't a measure of one's worth. Nor is the Invisible Hand guiding the market some ultimate arbiter of a moral society, but then what crutch would folks use to argue about an athlete's contract?

[ftf]

Median elementary school salary in my district is $100K before benefits and pension. I pay an extra $4000 in taxes and donations to make sure the teachers and schools are funded. In forty years that $160K from me.

My point is if you think teachers are not paid enough. Do something about it.... like writing a check.

While this is good for your schools and your community, seeing that schools are funded primarily by property taxes, not every community can afford donations and extra taxes, and I'm sure their property value is far below yours..... Perhaps a more equitable system might be in order, don't you think?

[saab2000]

There have been two long threads on here about people being paid too much: Lebron and Marissa Meyer. I wonder what the connection is?

If there was a Carl Icahn or Steve Mnuchin thread, I apologize.

Your point is taken. The difference is that one is not like the other here. LeBron has earned every penny he is paid in terms of bring people in, creating TV ratings, reviving local economies (eight consecutive NBA Finals appearances), etc. He is probably grossly underpaid.

Marissa Meyer's tenure at Yahoo! did not end in the same success.

But I see your point about women and minorities making a lot of money. The difference here is that one is wildly successful and the other not so much.

Don't hate the players, hate the game. I am all in with pro athletes earning what they are paid. Not so much in (not at all in) with local populations paying public funding for the facilities the teams use. They (the billionaire owners) can own them themselves.

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[joosttx]

Wow.

Easy "enough" for some; impossible for the vast majority.
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Doing the right thing or what you feel is right is not easy. Complaining or being selfish are the easy things to do.

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[Bruce K]

I changed careers about 12 years ago and became a full-time teacher (6th grademarh and science - now Math only) 10 years ago.

Still a fair number away from 6 figure salary.

I wish most school districts could pay like joostix’s - we might get a more consistent quality of teacher.

It is funny how teachers, first responders, and nurses seem to be paid base salaries below what we say their value is to society and over pay for others (not doctors - they are worth a LOT) who do not seem to be as valuable.

BK

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[ptourkin]

I changed careers about 12 years ago and became a full-time teacher (6th grademarh and science - now Math only) 10 years ago.

Still a fair number away from 6 figure salary.

I wish most school districts could pay like joostix’s - we might get a more consistent quality of teacher.

It is funny how teachers, first responders, and nurses seem to be paid base salaries below what we say their value is to society and over pay for others (not doctors - they are worth a LOT) who do not seem to be as valuable.

BK

To be fair, in 2017 you needed a household income of $247k/yr to consider buying a home in his county.

[FriarQuade]

Here's where some of Mark Cuban's cash goes...

http://s5625.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Boeing-767-277-Mark-Cuban.jpg

Who actually owns and pays for the jet though? Cuban has his hands in a lot of different things, like many of the team owners I'd imagine. So pulling one luxury item out doesn't do much to tell the story.

I'm curious to know how the revenue sharing works with the league, who gets paid for merchandise sales, concessions, TV rights, general marketing funds, ticket sales, how the stadium subsidies work out, what percentage are athlete salaries, what goes to coaches/trainers/managers and what's the net profit on all of that. It's just a business study, and I'm curious more than anything.

If you want to look at a questionable sporting organization, turn to FIFA or IOC and there's all kinds of cannon fodder. They make the NBA look like a boy scout troop.

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[cmbicycles]

Median elementary school salary in my district is $100K before benefits and pension. I pay an extra $4000 in taxes and donations to make sure the teachers and schools are funded. In forty years that $160K from me.

My point is if you think teachers are not paid enough. Do something about it.... like writing a check.

Im writing myself a check as I write this. ;) I've been teaching several years and am nowhere near that level... in my district the teacher salary table doesn't go that high. If that is the median salary that's good for the teachers, but I'd bet the cost of living is substantially higher than where I live.

I "write checks" to myself for classroom supplies all the time, I write donorschoose (crowdfunding) projects for supplies as well, both help provide supplies that the school can't/won't.

I chose my profession and they chose theirs. I like what I do and can support my family and lifestyle doing it... not that any of us wouldn't like to make more.

[FlashUNC]

That jet photo is a complete red herring.

I would guess that every NBA owner has at least one, and it is not NBA money that paid for any of them. Quite the opposite, in fact.



1.6194331983806%.
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Actually in NBA terms it isn't. Cuban was one of the first, if not the first, owner to buy a jet dedicated solely to transporting the Mavericks around. A long ways away from the days when the guys flew commercial. And many teams these days don't have a dedicated jet, but instead lease through one of the carriers to charter flights to get the team around.

The Mavs were a dumpster fire and wasteland for attracting free agents until Cuban bought the team and invested heavily in things like the private jet to attract guys to play there.

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[martl]

Hard to believe a guy gets $154mil to play basketball. Once I worked with troubled youth (juvenile offenders) and many thought that they too could play pro sports and make big bucks. False reality perpetuated by the media. Hey LeBron... another city another dream with kids going down the drain.

It is a market, supply/demand and all that. As opposed to many other areas like entertainment, music, even business - in sports, at least the biggest bucks go to the most talented people. There are no dozens of people with more skill than LeBron, Messi or Serena Williams playing their heart out night after night just to make a living... so, the sums may be obscene, but who is to blame, the people fortunate enough to be the best among 6 billion people in a field that pays well, or us, the consumers, without whom this wouldn't happen.

[tuscanyswe]

i cant help to feel that these ridiculous wages not only in sports will soon not be anymore, well at least not as frequent or as high. Theres a wave coming imo. Its just not a modern way of thinking that someones salory or time is worth a 1000 times more than someone elses.

I may be wrong but i hope im not. (says the guy who pays 50 bux a month for football but will stop after this summer).

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[tuscanyswe]

:confused:

Please google "Cristiano Ronaldo to Juventus transfer rumors", with this past week only as the search time parameter.
.

Im not thinking it will stop emediately it will likely get worse before it gets better. There is just so many young ppl who have a less egoistic perspective and wont put up the insane differences that has developed and become accepted within our society, i dont think that acceptance will hold but yeah it will likely be a while..

But hey im stopping my subscription this fall so there is that :)

[colker]

It is a market, supply/demand and all that. As opposed to many other areas like entertainment, music, even business - in sports, at least the biggest bucks go to the most talented people. There are no dozens of people with more skill than LeBron, Messi or Serena Williams playing their heart out night after night just to make a living... so, the sums may be obscene, but who is to blame, the people fortunate enough to be the best among 6 billion people in a field that pays well, or us, the consumers, without whom this wouldn't happen.

Let´s not forget that a large percentage stays w/ agents, lawyers, promoters and these are the people that inflate and keep the money balloon on the entertainment/ sports circus up in the stratosphere.
It´s the sports commentators that turn a match into a fake spiritual battle and keep making money when one athlete retires.

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[sitzmark]

i cant help to feel that these ridiculous wages not only in sports will soon not be anymore, well at least not as frequent or as high. Theres a wave coming imo. Its just not a modern way of thinking that someones salory or time is worth a 1000 times more than someone elses.

I may be wrong but i hope im not. (says the guy who pays 50 bux a month for football but will stop after this summer).

For context, if you live and work (at even an average wage) in the USA there's someone in a developing country that thinks your pay is ridiculous, obscene ... choose the adjective. Life is fickle and there's few/no guarantees - take what you can get when it's available and to the extent possible give back.

Unless the entire model changes - like everyone stops buying products (coke, pepsi, bada book bada boom, F150 trucks, cars, yada) that sponsor athletes/teams and products from companies that buy advertising which allow media outlets to pay huge sums for rights to broadcast, etc. etc. it will not end because that is where the big money comes from. Ticket sales meh - it's all the other stuff that adds to the pot to pay superstar contracts. So when a guy like LeBron has a world wide fan base that follows him wherever he goes, the sponsorship and advertising money will also follow. Why should he not get a percentage of what he generates? If someone generates $100/day in revenue and gets 10% and another generates $100,000/day @10% ....

I don't see it ending as the world population grows and the money supply/wealth increases along with it.

[Bruce K]

Family owned construction for almost 30 years.

In the end, the money was decent but it wasn’t satisfying.

I had done a lot at work with my son’s various school avtivities and then began substituting - and I really enjoyed being around the kids and seeing those “lightbulb moments”.

I got my Preliminary license with a BA in Economics and passing the exam. I then went on to get an MA in Secondary Education in my late 50s.

6th Grade is generally Middle School around here.

I guess I can’t afford my house (if your numbers are accurate).

BK

[tuscanyswe]

For context, if you live and work (at even an average wage) in the USA there's someone in a developing country that thinks your pay is ridiculous, obscene ... choose the adjective. Life is fickle and there's few/no guarantees - take what you can get when it's available and to the extent possible give back.

Unless the entire model changes - like everyone stops buying products (coke, pepsi, bada book bada boom, F150 trucks, cars, yada) that sponsor athletes/teams and products from companies that buy advertising which allow media outlets to pay huge sums for rights to broadcast, etc. etc. it will not end because that is where the big money comes from. Ticket sales meh - it's all the other stuff that adds to the pot to pay superstar contracts. So when a guy like LeBron has a world wide fan base that follows him wherever he goes, the sponsorship and advertising money will also follow. Why should he not get a percentage of what he generates? If someone generates $100/day in revenue and gets 10% and another generates $100,000/day @10% ....

I don't see it ending as the world population grows and the money supply/wealth increases along with it.

No i guess for now there are new emerging markets for companies to explore and continue to grow.

I think perhaps usa is a tad behind europe in this regard but there are a lot of ppl who previously have not been concearned with what they buy that are now making "smart" choices. Theres an awerness here now that just wasent here 10 years or even 5 ago. Young ppl today know and care about a lot of stuff that previously wasent even spoken of. Theres a sense of fairness in the thinking which is quite refreshing. I hope im right in the long run but yeah i realize the western world is still only a small part of it.

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[martl]

For context, if you live and work (at even an average wage) in the USA there's someone in a developing country that thinks your pay is ridiculous, obscene ... choose the adjective. Life is fickle and there's few/no guarantees - take what you can get when it's available and to the extent possible give back.

Exactly. I did a few backpack treks in the Himalayas, and talking to a Nepalese kitchen boy or a Bhutanese farmer - they don't understand there actually is a difference between Mr. LeBron and me. And frankly, the difference between a Billionaire and any one of us first-worlders is less than between us and the not-so-lucky 8/10th of the world.

[beeatnik]

Median elementary school salary in my district is $100K before benefits and pension. I pay an extra $4000 in taxes and donations to make sure the teachers and schools are funded. In forty years that $160K from me.

My point is if you think teachers are not paid enough. Do something about it.... like writing a check.

Or you could just move to the district where some of my riding pals teach. Property values are stratospheric but SES not so much. The school district is 85% Latino and in the bottom third statewide. Yet the 100K salaries are there.

https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2017/11/06/montebello-unified-audit-state-officials-allege-waste-favoritism-as-district-faced-financial-ruin/
State auditors last week excoriated leaders in the Montebello Unified School District for wasteful spending and cronyism — including instances where the district maintained unnecessary and high-paid administrator positions, bypassed their own hiring process and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on computer equipment that was never used — even as they dealt with a fiscal crisis that threatened the district’s solvency.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/montebellocitycalifornia/INC110216

Too many Latino politicians and administrators follow the Tammany Hall model.

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[beeatnik]

^2.1M followers

[echappist]

^2.1M followers

wait, what? Tammany Hall? Is this someone's nomme de guerre?

[jlwdm]

My wife was a teacher for one year. My sister and her husband were grade school teachers for over 40 years - he taught special education.

I think teachers get paid more than we often give them credit for. You have to add the time off during the school year, the summer break, the benefits and most importantly the pension to understand the true compensation.

I work for myself and have to plan for retirement not knowing how long I will live. My sister and her husband have generous retirement benefits that will be there every year of their lives. From someone in my position that has great value.

I grew up in a government town where most people went to college and then both spouses worked 30 years for the government and got paid 60% of the average of their two highest salaried years. They retired early and with social security have a comfortable life style in an area where the cost of living is reasonable. It was a choice I did not take. Or I guess I did for a while and then wanted something different. Unfortunately, I took out my pension funds and spent them.

Too many people think a household making $200,000 a year is dramatically different that a household making $100,000. Usually it just means more taxes, a more expensive house, more expensive cars and so forth - but not necessarily a better quality of life. At any income we all have choices to make to have better lives. We just don't necessarily make those choices - myself included.

Jeff

[Bruce K]

Then Jeff you clearly do not understand teaching at all.

My day at school begins around 6:30 and does not end until between 4:40 and 5:00.

After dinner and on the weekends I grade papers, write lesson plans, create assessments, and do data entry so parents have up to date online access to assignments and grades.

During this summer ”break” I am writing lessons for 1/4 of the first 3 units of our new curriculum (about 20 lessons with handouts, PowePoints or Nearpod presentations, practice sets, homework, and daily “check ins”), attending weekly training for our new online classroom app and new online assessment app. I coukd get asked to be on interview committees if we are hiring, and, if I had volunteered, I would be attending weekly meetings planning activities on school culture and team building for the first week of school.

Most teachers are busy this way during our “time off” or the newer ones work summer jobs to help make ends meet.

Teaching is a year-‘round job and then some, which is why you had better love it if you choose to do it. It definitely is not for the money.

BK

[bikinchris]

Then Jeff you clearly do not understand teaching at all.

My day at school begins around 6:30 and does not end until between 4:40 and 5:00.

After dinner and on the weekends I grade papers, write lesson plans, create assessments, and do data entry so parents have up to date online access to assignments and grades.

During this summer ”break” I am writing lessons for 1/4 of the first 3 units of our new curriculum (about 20 lessons with handouts, PowePoints or Nearpod presentations, practice sets, homework, and daily “check ins”), attending weekly training for our new online classroom app and new online assessment app. I coukd get asked to be on interview committees if we are hiring, and, if I had volunteered, I would be attending weekly meetings planning activities on school culture and team building for the first week of school.

Most teachers are busy this way during our “time off” or the newer ones work summer jobs to help make ends meet.

Teaching is a year-‘round job and then some, which is why you had better love it if you choose to do it. It definitely is not for the money.

BK

If you drive by your average school building, many teachers (who aren't coaches) are there from about an hour before morning duty until the last custodian kicks them out at 6 pm. Then they are there on Saturday if they can get a key ot an administrator who needs to do paperwork. Coaches are there with athletes until the last parent picks them up.
Every teacher has to do continuing education units every summer which includes either workshops or college credits.
Your average teacher who doesn't really care about their job will put in 50 hour weeksand the real dedicated obes will do up to 80 hours a week. And maybe 3 or 4 weeks off during the Summer. Many if not most teachers take summer jobs to pay off college.
While people with equivalent degrees made up to triple or more of the money.

[beeatnik]

Your average teacher who doesn't really care about their job will put in 50 hour weeksand the real dedicated obes will do up to 80 hours a week. And maybe 3 or 4 weeks off during the Summer. Many if not most teachers take summer jobs to pay off college.


I must only know (or be related to) average or indifferent teachers. And, yet, former students write them letters of gratitude 10, 15, 20 years after promotion.

Btw, these teachers are also homeowners (in the third most expensive housing market/region in the US) with multiple late model vehicles in their garages.

[gdw]

Worthless trivia for the teachers among us...... a large percentage of the folks racing and riding the Tour Divide and other multiday/multiweek bikepacking adventures work in your profession. Somehow they've managed to get large amounts of time off in the summer to pursue their dreams despite the long hours and low pay.

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[wc1934]

My wife was a teacher for one year. My sister and her husband were grade school teachers for over 40 years - he taught special education.

I think teachers get paid more than we often give them credit for. You have to add the time off during the school year, the summer break, the benefits and most importantly the pension to understand the true compensation.

I work for myself and have to plan for retirement not knowing how long I will live. My sister and her husband have generous retirement benefits that will be there every year of their lives. From someone in my position that has great value.

I grew up in a government town where most people went to college and then both spouses worked 30 years for the government and got paid 60% of the average of their two highest salaried years. They retired early and with social security have a comfortable life style in an area where the cost of living is reasonable. It was a choice I did not take. Or I guess I did for a while and then wanted something different. Unfortunately, I took out my pension funds and spent them.

Too many people think a household making $200,000 a year is dramatically different that a household making $100,000. Usually it just means more taxes, a more expensive house, more expensive cars and so forth - but not necessarily a better quality of life. At any income we all have choices to make to have better lives. We just don't necessarily make those choices - myself included.

Jeff

yes it is - 100k difference - and i would guess that the average salary for teachers is only 50k, if that.

[kppolich]

Let's be honest here, you don't become a teacher for the money.

and

An elite doctor who saves lives will never make as much per day as an elite professional athlete

and

Each human has the choice to watch TV, watch sports, donate to a charity, get woo'd by marketing hype, or make the conscious choice to buy something because So-and-So thinks it's cool.

Higher salaries for anyone means high costs for someone using or supporting that service.

Higher teacher pay = private school cost ^^ or higher taxes.
Higher athlete pay = higher ticket prices, bigger TV deals, higher cost of everything in the stadium, parking, or taxes to support the new stadium.
Higher doctor pay = higher healthcare costs, higher insurance costs, etc
Bottom line, someone else is paying for the increase.

End of story, the world is not fair because humans aren't reasonable and straightforward creatures- we value stupid, stupid s-h-i-t, but complain about healthcare costs that save your freaking life. A doctor isn't on TV performing life saving procedures, the best teachers in the world don't have shoe deals or do commercials. Both of them can give you something Ronaldo, Lebron, or whoever could never do. Do the teachers and doctors and social workers get the money--? No.

Entertainment is a commodity- don't like it? Don't watch it, support what you want. Don't like Athlete X? Don't support their sponsors, pay for cable, what have you.

[jlwdm]

yes it is - 100k difference - and i would guess that the average salary for teachers is only 50k, if that.

That paragraph had nothing to do with teachers.

Jeff

[jlwdm]

Then Jeff you clearly do not understand teaching at all...

BK

It is best not to make such strong statements about someone you don’t know.

Jeff

[Bruce K]

Sorry Jeff, but as soon as someone goes with “teachers have so much time off” (a statement that might have been true a long time ago), it takes me, and pretty much anyone who understands all that goes into being a teacher these days, straight to that point.

Nothing personal, but teaching today is more challenging and time consuming than when I owned my own business. That being said, I do not regret the change of career. There are times when I miss the money to be sure, but working with kids and watching them grow and expand their understanding is worth a lot to me.

BK

[oldpotatoe]

Let's be honest here, you don't become a teacher for the money.

and

An elite doctor who saves lives will never make as much per day as an elite professional athlete

and

Each human has the choice to watch TV, watch sports, donate to a charity, get woo'd by marketing hype, or make the conscious choice to buy something because So-and-So thinks it's cool.

Higher salaries for anyone means high costs for someone using or supporting that service.

Higher teacher pay = private school cost ^^ or higher taxes.
Higher athlete pay = higher ticket prices, bigger TV deals, higher cost of everything in the stadium, parking, or taxes to support the new stadium.
Higher doctor pay = higher healthcare costs, higher insurance costs, etc
Bottom line, someone else is paying for the increase.

End of story, the world is not fair because humans aren't reasonable and straightforward creatures- we value stupid, stupid s-h-i-t, but complain about healthcare costs that save your freaking life. A doctor isn't on TV performing life saving procedures, the best teachers in the world don't have shoe deals or do commercials. Both of them can give you something Ronaldo, Lebron, or whoever could never do. Do the teachers and doctors and social workers get the money--? No.

Entertainment is a commodity- don't like it? Don't watch it, support what you want. Don't like Athlete X? Don't support their sponsors, pay for cable, what have you.

What he said...:)

[Mikej]

Teachers always yelled at me and threatened I’d only pump gas or flip burgers- so I skipped out and skateboarded - https://www.usnews.com/high-schools/best-high-schools/articles/2018-05-18/see-high-school-graduation-rates-by-state

[bikinchris]

I know I have posted this before, but:
You know when the world will have its priorities right when teachers, firefighters and police get signing bonuses and the New York Yankees have to hold a bake sale to afford equipment.

[Mzilliox]

My wife was a teacher for one year. My sister and her husband were grade school teachers for over 40 years - he taught special education.

I think teachers get paid more than we often give them credit for. You have to add the time off during the school year, the summer break, the benefits and most importantly the pension to understand the true compensation.

I work for myself and have to plan for retirement not knowing how long I will live. My sister and her husband have generous retirement benefits that will be there every year of their lives. From someone in my position that has great value.

I grew up in a government town where most people went to college and then both spouses worked 30 years for the government and got paid 60% of the average of their two highest salaried years. They retired early and with social security have a comfortable life style in an area where the cost of living is reasonable. It was a choice I did not take. Or I guess I did for a while and then wanted something different. Unfortunately, I took out my pension funds and spent them.

Too many people think a household making $200,000 a year is dramatically different that a household making $100,000. Usually it just means more taxes, a more expensive house, more expensive cars and so forth - but not necessarily a better quality of life. At any income we all have choices to make to have better lives. We just don't necessarily make those choices - myself included.

Jeff

There are things in this post i simply can't agree with. :help:

Like teachers making plenty if you consider this or that... teachers offer society much more than most jobs. much much more. that is fact, cannot be argued. they are not paid enough nor are schools properly funded, no matter how much individuals like Houston decide or dont decide to privately fund. this is a public good and should be treated as such. and yes, we all have a few bucks for it. if you cant afford a few more tax dollars, or a sway in how tax dollars are spent to fund education, then you have your priorities wrong. i cannot see any other way around this.

Like 100k and 200k are the same expect your house payment is bigger. what if your house payment wasn't bigger? what if you didnt go the route of average consumer Americans and you just kept your lifestyle? what if you instead used the extra income to pay off debt and start a social project? what if you simply choose to be better? then 100k makes a massive difference. i can tell you first hand, making more money but spending the same amount of money is good, favorable to your pals pensions requiring something from them at the same time, debt.

And yes, we as a culture spend far too much on entertainment, its quite sad.

[beeatnik]

Like 100k and 200k are the same expect your house payment is bigger. what if your house payment wasn't bigger? what if you didnt go the route of average consumer Americans and you just kept your lifestyle? what if you instead used the extra income to pay off debt and start a social project? what if you simply choose to be better? then 100k makes a massive difference. i can tell you first hand, making more money but spending the same amount of money is good, favorable to your pals pensions requiring something from them at the same time, debt.

And yes, we as a culture spend far too much on entertainment, its quite sad.

Jeff is asking us to maintain some perspective. A household at 100K can enjoy a similar quality of life to a household at 200k in most regions of the United States. However, neither the 100K or 200k households can enjoy the blessings of a household at the 500K plus income level. The true economic (and justice) differentiation is between the 50K and 100K household. One is poverty level.