Article--->What it's like to ride a $13,000 Tour de France road bike

[huck*this]

A read to enjoy this evening. I haven't read it yet but a quick skim showed great visuals. Enjoy!

What it's like to ride a $13,000 Tour de France road bike (https://amp.businessinsider.com/riding-tour-de-france-bike-specialized-venge-review-photos-details-2018-6)

[cribbit]

I love the throwaway line about it saving 45 seconds over 25 miles for a professional racer.

Really puts into perspective how much I actually need a bike like this.

[pncguy]

But it doesn't look like you can fit fenders between the tires and the frame or fork! :D

Seriously, though. That's gorgeous. Of course, I don't fit in its target demographic...

[Louis]

My daily driver is on a Feedback Sports stand just like the one in the picture...

[pjbaz]

My favorite line was how it was heavy at 18 pounds for a 58! I haven't weighed my Pegs yet but my go-to machine for the last 14 years 55 Lemond is just a tick under 19 pounds and it's a wonderful climber.

[Llewellyn]

Winningest is not a real word :mad::mad::mad:

[dustyrider]

So if you don’t take PEDS and want to ride one of “these” bikes, you’ve got to be able to spout as much marketing hyperbole as possible. Got it! ;)

[tylercheung]

It will be pennies on the dollar on Paceline in 20 years!

[wildboar]

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b328f971ae6621c008b4aa9-1536-2048.jpg

[fa63]

What kind of animal lays the bike down on its drive side?

:banana:

[Davist]

Nice pics, cost more than my first couple cars, though..

OT at the bottom, there's a video on the "sand wars" which if you haven't seen or heard about yet, is pretty interesting.

[Fishbike]

It will be pennies on the dollar on Paceline in 20 years!

Try 3 or 4!

[soulspinner]

What kind of animal lays the bike down on its drive side?

:banana:
One with someone else to clean up the bike afterward

[unterhausen]

also need a follow car, for when the derailleur goes in the spokes because you bent it by putting it on the ground

[oldguy00]

Didn't read the article, but I think its worth noting that most people probably don't pay anywhere near MSRP for these bikes.
And on top of that, 13k is a drop in the bucket for many people these days (not me).
My triathlon bike, Felt IA FRD, has a Canadian MSRP of 18499 (plus tax). Ridiculous, right? But I found a NOS frameset that a dealer let me have for 3700 US, then through Ultegra Di2 parts from the UK on it, and a HED Jet 9/6 wheelset. Came in at less than half MSRP.

At the Tremblant 70.3 triathlon this past weekend, we figured there was roughly 15 - 20 million worth of bikes sitting in transition... :)

[josephr]

so, our disc brakes legal for TdF now? maybe I've not been paying attention...and wasn't there another article going around how riders didn't like SRAM due to reliability? This isn't a real article...its a blogger fluff piece by a non-cyclist.

[GregL]

so, our disc brakes legal for TdF now?
Yes: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/disc-brakes-expected-to-proliferate-at-tour-de-france-after-uci-approval/

Greg

[ergott]

In fact, the current men's world road champ - and one of the best bike racers of all time - counts a Venge among his quiver.



Except he never rides it, favoring the Tarmac instead.:p

[ergott]

Oh, and...

Someone should have fixed the grommet before taking the pic!

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b1ef4e51ae6621e008b4f49-1920-1280.jpg

[Seramount]

sure it's a nice-riding bike and all, but I'm simply not desirous of owning one.

just doesn't move my lust-meter.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm no aero engineer, but, I don't get how making tubes and components more slippery through the air isn't just all marketing hype. I mean, add the human up there with legs furiously turning, and it seems to me that it doesn't matter at all how aero the bike design is. Pretty much negates all the effort.

[ChristianWong]

I'm no aero engineer, but, I don't get how making tubes and components more slippery through the air isn't just all marketing hype. I mean, add the human up there with legs furiously turning, and it seems to me that it doesn't matter at all how aero the bike design is. Pretty much negates all the effort.

Wind tunnels say otherwise. It may not matter for the average fella, but it certainly matters for the TdF guys.

[jmoore]

It's fugly. I don't care how "fast" it is.

[BdaGhisallo]

sure it's a nice-riding bike and all, but I'm simply not desirous of owning one.

just doesn't move my lust-meter.

Agreed. Doesn't do much for me either. I can only see two things on it that I rate as worth buying with my own money - the right Shimano pedal and the left Shimano pedal.

[cribbit]

I'm no aero engineer, but, I don't get how making tubes and components more slippery through the air isn't just all marketing hype. I mean, add the human up there with legs furiously turning, and it seems to me that it doesn't matter at all how aero the bike design is. Pretty much negates all the effort.

The 45 seconds over 25 miles - for guys who are putting out peak power, going speed where aero really matters, already equipped with all the gear to make their bodies more aero.

For every level except these guys it doesn't matter at all, it's practically negligible. But these guys are supposed to be the peak of the sport. It's like asking why an F1 team spends millions of dollars and thousands of hours refining one tiny part on the car - at that level every little bit matters.

[jpritchet74]

There are many of us on this forum with bikes that retail for more than $13k and I think that most of us agree that at $13k we wouldn't be getting a Specialized.

[jemoryl]

Shouldn't that webpage say ADVERTIZING at the top?

[old fat man]

Didn't read the article, but I think its worth noting that most people probably don't pay anywhere near MSRP for these bikes.
And on top of that, 13k is a drop in the bucket for many people these days (not me).
My triathlon bike, Felt IA FRD, has a Canadian MSRP of 18499 (plus tax). Ridiculous, right? But I found a NOS frameset that a dealer let me have for 3700 US, then through Ultegra Di2 parts from the UK on it, and a HED Jet 9/6 wheelset. Came in at less than half MSRP.

At the Tremblant 70.3 triathlon this past weekend, we figured there was roughly 15 - 20 million worth of bikes sitting in transition... :)

You spent $8000+ on a tri bike? I thought the events themselves were prohibitively expensive. So is the equipment apparently

[cribbit]

You spent $8000+ on a tri bike? I thought the events themselves were prohibitively expensive. So is the equipment apparently

Oh yeah. Slap a 'it's for tri!' on the advertising and double the price. Bam, you're a marketing genius.

[JStonebarger]

The 45 seconds over 25 miles - for guys who are putting out peak power, going speed where aero really matters, already equipped with all the gear to make their bodies more aero.

For every level except these guys it doesn't matter at all, it's practically negligible. But these guys are supposed to be the peak of the sport. It's like asking why an F1 team spends millions of dollars and thousands of hours refining one tiny part on the car - at that level every little bit matters.

I'm no pro-tour rider, but it matters to me. 45 seconds over 25 miles is huge, whether I'm racing the local time trial or just that much fresher after a social ride. Granted, I haven't bought a new bike since well before the first Venge hit the market, but why wouldn't free speed matter to me?

Aero matters at all speeds. In a sense it matters all the more for slower riders -- they save more time/effort than faster riders. If you don't like the Spec, fine, but don't kid yourself about the importance of aero equipment.

[Mzilliox]

Probably not as good as it feels to ride some of my bikes, i literally have no bike envy when it comes to these machines. I think maybe pros would prefer to ride one of my bikes when they are not racing.

And that cockpit is stupid looking.

but im sure its a fine riding bike

[simonov]

Aero works. Of course the bike has to fit well, be comfortable, properly responsive, etc. etc. and it helps if it looks good too (the Venge doesn't), but aero isn't a gimmick.

[huck*this]

Yes and agree the Vias is probably the ugliest looking bikes out there. Looks heavy too.

Good tape job though.

[Ozz]

...Aero matters at all speeds. In a sense it matters all the more for slower riders -- they save more time/effort than faster riders. If you don't like the Spec, fine, but don't kid yourself about the importance of aero equipment.

Maybe....but aero matters more at higher speeds

Drag equation:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation

Faster you go = more drag = more important aero becomes

;)

[cribbit]

I'm no pro-tour rider, but it matters to me. 45 seconds over 25 miles is huge, whether I'm racing the local time trial or just that much fresher after a social ride. Granted, I haven't bought a new bike since well before the first Venge hit the market, but why wouldn't free speed matter to me?

Aero matters at all speeds. In a sense it matters all the more for slower riders -- they save more time/effort than faster riders. If you don't like the Spec, fine, but don't kid yourself about the importance of aero equipment.

The percent of energy lost to drag goes up a ton the faster you go.

The 45 seconds is also a best case scenario, probably exaggerated a little because it's a marketing number.

[JStonebarger]

Maybe....but aero matters more at higher speeds

Drag equation:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation

Faster you go = more drag = more important aero becomes

;)

"Slower athletes benefit from aero wheels for a longer duration, and as a result, save more time overall."

https://flocycling.com/slower-athletes-save-more-time.php

[jumphigher]

The 45 seconds is also a best case scenario, probably exaggerated a A LOT because it's a marketing number.

Fixed it for you. :banana:

[spacemen3]

It's fugly. I don't care how "fast" it is.
Agreed.

[Dude]

This thread is so grouchy.

[joosttx]

This thread is so grouchy.

Welcome to Paceline.


Where excellence and innovation are hated

[R3awak3n]

Welcome to Paceline.


Where excellence and innovation are hated

POTD unfortunetely.


This bike is pretty cool, aero is pretty cool. Its not for everyone and we won't benefit from it but we also don't benefit from a $5000 custom titanium bike and some of yall have 5 of them. Buy wht you like, ride wht you like.

I would ride the crap out of this bike... etap - yes, hydro discs - yes, fast carbon wheels - yes. The cock pit is ugly but its an aero bike so you have to go all out

[Matthew]

If it only looked half as good as it's price tag. Call me grouchy I guess.

[Ozz]

Welcome to Paceline.


Where marketing disguised as excellence and innovation are hated

Fixed....:cool:

Fwiw - I am sure it is a fine bike....

[Bonesbrigade]

That 45 seconds over 40k is very misleading. It was comparing to the Tarmac, which was one of slowest tested road bikes in 2006. Such drivel when companies pull this crap.

[killerrabbit]

I had the Ultegra version of this one for a bit.. wasn't a fan. Didn't feel like it had that "get up-n-go", and it wasn't due to excess weight - weighed a little over 18.

It's more.. aesthetically pleasing without the 25mm rise bars.

[simonov]

Its not for everyone and we won't benefit from it

I am, without a doubt, faster on my aero bike. And I was a huge skeptic. Aero can make a difference, even for us.

[seedster2]

The Vias is certainly an acquired taste. It is butt ugly when compared to the Madone.

I am skeptical of their numbers because Specialized does some creative marketing.

Moreover, there is already an updated version being tested on the tour, further illustrating some of the compromises weren't compelling enough to have the pros discontinue riding the Tarmac

[Ronsonic]

oops

[Davist]

The Vias is certainly an acquired taste. It is butt ugly when compared to the Madone.

the madone? not a fan aesthetically.. dealers were stuck/coerced into buying too many of the rim brake version last year, if you like them there should be deals out there.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[colker]

I'd much rather have $13,000 to spend riding the entire Tour de France course, over the course of a month, on my own current bike.
.

Sure. Let´s make this cycling thing about adventure. I don´t need another bike.

[cadence90]

.... ..
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[colker]

Yeah, but you could spend only $12,850 on your TdF trip, because you would have to spend $150 on some new shoes first! :)
.

The french would not put up w/ those old, ragged, torn driving mocassins i ride on.
Maybe i could find something cheaper than 150 bucks though.... save a few more bucks for a nice bottle of wine.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[colker]

Oh, you mean save money and buy the shoes locally, in France? Excellent idea!

In the $150 I was factoring in that tedious and expensive international shipping.
.

Let´s not have anyone go through the terrible ordeal of shipping internationally. It´s a human rights issue.

[speedevil]

I'm no pro-tour rider, but it matters to me. 45 seconds over 25 miles is huge, whether I'm racing the local time trial or just that much fresher after a social ride. Granted, I haven't bought a new bike since well before the first Venge hit the market, but why wouldn't free speed matter to me?

Free? $13k worth of free speed? I don't understand that statement. But to be fair, I prefer classic lugged steel frames and mechanical groups.

[R3awak3n]

I am, without a doubt, faster on my aero bike. And I was a huge skeptic. Aero can make a difference, even for us.

sure but I think us here in the forum is substantial. I don't race, I don't really ride fast most of the time, I like to take my time and take it all in, so in my case it really does not make a different... may be different for you and I am glad that works out for you (not being sarcastic here).

[tuscanyswe]

But it doesn't look like you can fit fenders between the tires and the frame or fork! :D

Seriously, though. That's gorgeous. Of course, I don't fit in its target demographic...

Its gorgeous? Its a lot of things im sure, most of them good i imagine, but gorgeous it is not!! And no thats not subjective its just not :banana:

[charliedid]

Looks so familiar.

[Burnette]

"The Specialized Venge ViAS was the winningest bike at the 2017 Tour de France", as if that means anything.

My OCPD side doesn't like that stem/head tube junction gap but the rest of the bike is outstanding.

I like the way the front wheel is shrouded by the down tube juts as the rear wheel is shrouded by the seat tube. I even like the color scheme.

[Repack Rider]

One of the displays at the Marin Museum of Bicycling is Vincenzo Nibali's Specialized bike from the final stage of the 2014 TdF.

I tell people who admire it that it is a bicycle built for a professional athlete who is followed by a carload of mechanics and spare bikes. No one outside of that category needs a bike like that.

[Clean39T]

I road 62mm carbon Clinchers today for the first time. They are undeniably fast - like, 2-4mph for same power output compared to my other bikes running 32h handbuilts w 27mm tires on Open Pros.

Did it make me enjoy my ride more? Not really. It's a fun novelty, but certainly not necessary...except for helping me close gaps in a group of macho hammers on an impromptu group ride...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[echappist]

I road 62mm carbon Clinchers today for the first time. They are undeniably fast - like, 2-4mph for same power output compared to my other bikes running 32h handbuilts w 27mm tires on Open Pros.

Did it make me enjoy my ride more? Not really. It's a fun novelty, but certainly not necessary...except for helping me close gaps in a group of macho hammers on an impromptu group ride...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

unless you are traveling at some really high speeds for a bike or were going into some serious wind, i doubt change in wheels per se would net you 2-4mph.

At 30 mph, a single front aero wheel saves you 120 gram force of drag, or 17W. For a wheelset, that's probably 25-30W at 30 mph. How much faster would you be? About 0.6 mph at 30 mph.

What about at 25 mph? That saving is now worth ~10W and saves you 0.25 mph at 25 mph.

And I say this as perhaps one of the most aero-conscious posters on this fine forum, aero wheels are quite marginal in terms of aero gains/dollar spent. Leg shaving would help far more

Also, aero road frames are up there in terms of low aero gain/dollar spent, and I say this as someone who seeks out every aero advantage I could get

[Clean39T]

unless you are traveling at some really high speeds for a bike or were going into some serious wind, i doubt change in wheels per se would net you 2-4mph.

At 30 mph, a single front aero wheel saves you 120 gram force of drag, or 17W. For a wheelset, that's probably 25-30W at 30 mph. How much faster would you be? About 0.6 mph at 30 mph.

What about at 25 mph? That saving is now worth ~10W and saves you 0.25 mph at 25 mph.

And I say this as perhaps one of the most aero-conscious posters on this fine forum, aero wheels are quite marginal in terms of aero gains/dollar spent. Leg shaving would help far more

Also, aero road frames are up there in terms of low aero gain/dollar spent, and I say this as someone who seeks out every aero advantage I could getInteresting. I probably had new-bike watts, plus fast-tires watts, plus lower-front-end aero advantage...

And I'm comparing to seriously slow wheels w lightbulb tires.

I get what you're saying though.

It was riding 22-23mph on flats where I'd usually be 20mph...not much wind.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[R3awak3n]

I have never felt faster than when I was ridding 45mm enves. But maybe it was all my in head lol, look fast you go faster I guess

[simonov]

sure but I think us here in the forum is substantial. I don't race, I don't really ride fast most of the time, I like to take my time and take it all in, so in my case it really does not make a different... may be different for you and I am glad that works out for you (not being sarcastic here).

Of course. If you don't race, ride fast and like to take your time (and there's nothing wrong with that at all), an aero race bike is not the bike for you. That's the problem with debates about gear (not pointing at you specifically, but to generalize), people who have no need or interest in a particular type of riding often come out of the woodwork to criticize the lack of usefulness or benefit of said gear. Aero bikes are surprisingly great if you want to go fast. It's not bs...and that's coming from someone who said for years that the benefits were bs.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm no pro-tour rider, but it matters to me. 45 seconds over 25 miles is huge, whether I'm racing the local time trial or just that much fresher after a social ride. Granted, I haven't bought a new bike since well before the first Venge hit the market, but why wouldn't free speed matter to me?

Aero matters at all speeds. In a sense it matters all the more for slower riders -- they save more time/effort than faster riders. If you don't like the Spec, fine, but don't kid yourself about the importance of aero equipment.

Mostly cuz it assumes, 'all things being equal'..and since a bike is powered by a human, all things are never quite 'equal', ride to ride. It may make a difference on Monday, maybe not on Tuesday but in any case...45 seconds over 25 miles(even tho even that can't really be predicted) doesn't sound very YUGE to me..IMHO..

[Avispa]

It will be pennies on the dollar on Paceline in 20 years!

20!!??? I'd give it 2, 3 years max! :eek:
At the rate these companies are releasing "new and improved" equipment... Fausto Pinarello said that he wants this bike company to be the "Apple Computer of Cycling". He wants to release a new product every year or every two years max.

Bike tech is not computer tech, and as we know, the minute a "new" model is out, no one wants the older one.

[JStonebarger]

I do race, in fact I'll do a time trial on my very un-aero CAAD10 this coming week. Maybe that skews my take on this stuff, but why not be faster racing or not? Again, I'm not a fan of this bike, but rather of anything that makes me faster.

On social rides with friends who don't race or care about how fast they go I ride expensive tires with latex tubes on aero wheels, all of which make me faster. Why wouldn't I? I get to the bar the same time they do, I just don't work quite as hard to get there.

I'm not in the market for a new bike, but if I was it would be something aero.

[tuscanyswe]

I do race, in fact I'll do a time trial on my very un-aero CAAD10 this coming week. Maybe that skews my take on this stuff, but why not be faster racing or not? Again, I'm not a fan of this bike, but rather of anything that makes me faster.

On social rides with friends who don't race or care about how fast they go I ride expensive tires with latex tubes on aero wheels, all of which make me faster. Why wouldn't I? I get to the bar the same time they do, I just don't work quite as hard to get there.

I'm not in the market for a new bike, but if I was it would be something aero.

Which in the long run makes you slower. Is there a case to be made where aero equipment is actually making non racers slower??? :D

[colker]

Fausto Pinarello said that he wants this bike company to be the "Apple Computer of Cycling".
.

Were they selling stock when that line was said? That´s one silly comparison he made.

[cadence90]

.... ..
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[Dave B]

I just realized I have a lot to learn about how to wrap a handlebar.


Oh, I am sure whatever else the article was about was good too, probably 40% more efficient to read.

[Avispa]

Were they selling stock when that line was said? That´s one silly comparison he made.



Guess you didn't understand the whole reply? What Pinarello meant is that he wanted to release products in the same manner as Apple and have frequent updates... and this in my opinion, says something as to why many products do not retain their original value for too long.

[Mark McM]

Aero bikes are surprisingly great if you want to go fast. It's not bs...and that's coming from someone who said for years that the benefits were bs.

Bikes don't go fast by themselves - its the rider who makes them go fast. The bike contributes only a fraction of the total drag, and aero bikes only reduce the drag of the bike by a fraction of a non-aero bike's drag, so the total drag savings end up being just a fraction of a fraction. Likewise, speed will increase only by a fraction of a fraction. I think it would be more accurate to say, "Aero bikes are surprisingly great if you want to go a teensy bit faster." There is no doubt that all else being the same, an aero bike will got faster than a non-aero bike - but only a tiny bit faster.

When differences of only inches or feet matter, than aero bikes matter. But if it doesn't matter if you finish a century ride in 5:15 or 5:20, then there is little advantage to an aero bike.

(Just as a point of reference, I race criteriums on an aero bike with all the aero tricks, including deep wheels, aero helmet, skinsuit, and aero drop bars. But I do century rides on a round tubed steel bike with wide tires, comfortable cycling clothing and well ventilated non-aero helmet.)

[ptourkin]

Which in the long run makes you slower. Is there a case to be made where aero equipment is actually making non racers slower??? :D

No.

[simonov]

Bikes don't go fast by themselves - its the rider who makes them go fast. The bike contributes only a fraction of the total drag, and aero bikes only reduce the drag of the bike by a fraction of a non-aero bike's drag, so the total drag savings end up being just a fraction of a fraction. Likewise, speed will increase only by a fraction of a fraction. I think it would be more accurate to say, "Aero bikes are surprisingly great if you want to go a teensy bit faster." There is no doubt that all else being the same, an aero bike will got faster than a non-aero bike - but only a tiny bit faster.

When differences of only inches or feet matter, than aero bikes matter. But if it doesn't matter if you finish a century ride in 5:15 or 5:20, then there is little advantage to an aero bike.

(Just as a point of reference, I race criteriums on an aero bike with all the aero tricks, including deep wheels, aero helmet, skinsuit, and aero drop bars. But I do century rides on a round tubed steel bike with wide tires, comfortable cycling clothing and well ventilated non-aero helmet.)

Of course the bikes don't do anything by themselves. But if an aero bike reduces the amount of energy required to achieve or maintain a certain speed, my point stands...there's something to it and they are faster. Of course it's up to each individual to decide if or when they care about those gains. When I want to go as fast as possible, whether in a race or a large group ride where I feel like mixing it up, I take the aero bike. If I don't care about speed I pick which ever bike has air in the tires, which is sometimes also the aero bike.

[Mr. Pink]

Wind tunnels say otherwise. It may not matter for the average fella, but it certainly matters for the TdF guys.

Do they put the bike in the tunnel by itself? Probably not. From what I've seen, wind tunnel "training" centers around rider position and rider equipment (helmet, suit), because, obviously, the rider is the largest, bulkiest object cutting through the air. I fail to see how tube shape, of all things, can compare to a human when going aero, as a total package. I mean, cmon, how do you brake going downhill? You sit up, right?

[Mr. Pink]

The 45 seconds over 25 miles - for guys who are putting out peak power, going speed where aero really matters, already equipped with all the gear to make their bodies more aero.

For every level except these guys it doesn't matter at all, it's practically negligible. But these guys are supposed to be the peak of the sport. It's like asking why an F1 team spends millions of dollars and thousands of hours refining one tiny part on the car - at that level every little bit matters.

You're assuming that the 45 second advantage is a result of aero design. I did not read that. The writer implied that the whole package, the full bike, as responsible for that speed increase, which I guess I could see, but, then, 45 seconds faster than what, and, with the same rider over the same course under exactly the same conditions, including the energy level of the rider? We all have bad days, you know, and then we have those, damn, I feel great today, days.

[William]

I want to know what it's like to toss a $13,000 Tour De France road bike! :banana:






William


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[jemoryl]

The aero design of those bikes enables one to throw them even farther!

[William]

The aero design of those bikes enables one to throw them even farther!

I wonder how much more distance you can get with the new aero carbon tubes vs the old aero steel tubes? :confused:






William;)

[Mr. Pink]

20!!??? I'd give it 2, 3 years max! :eek:
At the rate these companies are releasing "new and improved" equipment... Fausto Pinarello said that he wants this bike company to be the "Apple Computer of Cycling". He wants to release a new product every year or every two years max.

Bike tech is not computer tech, and as we know, the minute a "new" model is out, no one wants the older one.

Apple hasn't released anything really new in years. Which is good, I don't have to spend so much to keep up.

[mtechnica]

I road 62mm carbon Clinchers today for the first time. They are undeniably fast - like, 2-4mph for same power output compared to my other bikes running 32h handbuilts w 27mm tires on Open Pros.


4MPH?!?!?!

Man..............

lol....

The aero stuff makes a difference but it's a really small difference, maybe 2-25 watts *at best* for the whole deal versus a "normal" bike, at least as far as I understand it, but 4MPH, maybe your old wheels have solidified grease and are completely out of true.

I think the people that ride a lot don't buy into the marketing because they ride with enough people on different bikes to know that the aero stuff is only a small part of the game, and even though it tests well on paper there are so many variables in a bike race including this thing called drafting, that it's pretty questionable to even try to quantify the aero and weight differences.

I'm not saying aero stuff makes no difference but I'm sorry if you think you're going to go from 18mph to 21+ mph on your rides because of ANY bike short of a worst case scenario traditional road bike that doesn't fit right to a full aero road bike with amazing wheels and maybe you took an extra large **** that day, you're simply delusional.

The TT bikes make a pretty big difference because of your body position (not the bike itself) but all else being equal, if you had the exact same fit on two road bikes with the same rolling resistance, you're talking seconds over many miles.

[Clean39T]

4MPH?!?!?!

Man..............

lol....

The aero stuff makes a difference but it's a really small difference, maybe 2-25 watts *at best* for the whole deal versus a "normal" bike, at least as far as I understand it, but 4MPH, maybe your old wheels have solidified grease and are completely out of true.

I think the people that ride a lot don't buy into the marketing because they ride with enough people on different bikes to know that the aero stuff is only a small part of the game, and even though it tests well on paper there are so many variables in a bike race including this thing called drafting, that it's pretty questionable to even try to quantify the aero and weight differences.

I'm not saying aero stuff makes no difference but I'm sorry if you think you're going to go from 18mph to 21+ mph on your rides because of ANY bike short of a worst case scenario traditional road bike that doesn't fit right to a full aero road bike with amazing wheels and maybe you took an extra large **** that day, you're simply delusional.

The TT bikes make a pretty big difference because of your body position (not the bike itself) but all else being equal, if you had the exact same fit on two road bikes with the same rolling resistance, you're talking seconds over many miles.

Like I said before...


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Interesting. I probably had new-bike watts, plus fast-tires watts, plus lower-front-end aero advantage...

And I'm comparing to seriously slow wheels w lightbulb tires.

I get what you're saying though.

It was riding 22-23mph on flats where I'd usually be 20mph...not much wind.

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[s4life]

There are many of us on this forum with bikes that retail for more than $13k and I think that most of us agree that at $13k we wouldn't be getting a Specialized.

+1
In fact a Specialized is the last bike I'd ever get :)

[ChristianWong]

Do they put the bike in the tunnel by itself? Probably not. From what I've seen, wind tunnel "training" centers around rider position and rider equipment (helmet, suit), because, obviously, the rider is the largest, bulkiest object cutting through the air. I fail to see how tube shape, of all things, can compare to a human when going aero, as a total package. I mean, cmon, how do you brake going downhill? You sit up, right?

I admittedly have little knowledge on this entire scene but here's my take:

It doesn't matter if the bike creates one hundredth of the effect that the rest of the equation (position, clothing, etc.) contributes. If it makes any contribution at all, the TdF guys will be on it. While I don't subscribe, that's the entire notion of marginal gains.

And I suspect they do put the bike in the tunnel by itself.

[ergott]

I mean, cmon, how do you brake going downhill? You sit up, right?

You just destroyed your own argument. By sitting up you are less aero and slower. By going from a steel round tube bike to a Venge or the new 'dale you are slower. I'm not telling you to buy one, but science is science. The bike will make you fractionally faster or use less watts for a given speed. Period.

[Marc40a]

"wicked fast"

The writer is definitely from MA.

[Mr. Pink]

I admittedly have little knowledge on this entire scene but here's my take:

It doesn't matter if the bike creates one hundredth of the effect that the rest of the equation (position, clothing, etc.) contributes. If it makes any contribution at all, the TdF guys will be on it. While I don't subscribe, that's the entire notion of marginal gains.

And I suspect they do put the bike in the tunnel by itself.

So, I was thinking during my morning ride today.

Its not the heat, its the humidity.

Heh, just kidding, although somehow the northeast is experiencing New Orleans weather this week. No, what I was thinking was, if they evaluate a bike without a rider in a wind tunnel, are the wheels spinning? (How would they do that?) Because, sure seems to me that the front wheel spinning creates more than enough turbulence to negate any sort of subtle shape differences in the tubing directly behind it. Add to that the turbulence of the rear wheel spinning, and I fail to see how tube shape really gives an advantage.

Oh, and that argument that TDF teams will exploit any possible means to go faster, therefore, aero bikes, and then that tech drifts down to us, sounds a bit backwards. My guess is that these large bike companies have to come up with some new gimmick every few years to convince us that we need to drop another ten grand for the latest thing (hello, disc brakes) or we'll be lost to an unhip past. Then the tour riders are either convinced to ride these things in exchange for a very healthy contract, or, the back markers could probably care less, they'll take anything somebody hands them just to have the privilege to ride into Paris. I'm pretty sure Sagan would kick ass against 99.5% of other humans on any high end bike, and maybe even my Ultegra Strong steel steed.

[ergott]

Typically, the better bike companies are testing their bikes with a mannequin to simulate turbulence of a rider's legs et al.

[Mr. Pink]

I'd love to see the results of those tests. But, I doubt the companies would release them, for obvious reasons. If they exist.

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[simonov]

I'm pretty sure Sagan would kick ass against 99.5% of other humans on any high end bike, and maybe even my Ultegra Strong steel steed.

He doesn't need to be faster than 99.5% of other humans. He needs to be faster than John Degenkolb, Philippe Gilbert, GVA and a host of other people who are faster than 99.99999% of other humans. My guess is that he'd pick the Venge (or Tarmac) over your Strong. And I'm sure your Strong is an excellent bike.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, I ain't paying him to ride my Strong, but you can betcha a lot of bike companies would pay him big bucks just to do a rest day on their bike.

[ergott]

I'd love to see the results of those tests. But, I doubt the companies would release them, for obvious reasons. If they exist.

There have been enough independent tests to verify most claims. Check out Tour magazine. Results are pretty close to most published numbers.

[Mr. Pink]

Links?

[Mark McM]

No, what I was thinking was, if they evaluate a bike without a rider in a wind tunnel, are the wheels spinning? (How would they do that?)

Yes, many, if not most, bicycle wind tunnel tests include spinning wheels. This is usually done by setting the wheels on some type of rollers built into the floor of the tunnel, like in the Faster wind tunnel (in Arizona) shown below:

https://roadbikeaction.com/wp-content/contentimages/Zap%20News/2012/Arizona%20Tunnel/fs12.JPG

When wheels are tested alone, in wind tunnels, they are are almost always tested while spinning, also. While it is straight forward to test the translational drag of spinning wheels, it is unfortunately far more difficult to test what is called the "power to spin" of wheels, so this is not often done in wind tunnels.

[Mark McM]

Typically, the better bike companies are testing their bikes with a mannequin to simulate turbulence of a rider's legs et al.

This is true, but in the case of this new Cannondale, they actually tested the bike alone in the tunnel, and did simulations for the affects of adding a rider. Here is what the Cannondale System Six white paper says about it:

Testing With and Without a Rider

Wind tunnel data in this report is presented for bicycles
tested in isolation. This is the most controllable condition
for testing of bicycles as it eliminates the instabilities
introduced by a rider, even a mannequin. It does have
its limitations, however, as testing without a rider does
not capture the true flow field around a bicycle. It will be
discussed later how SystemSix was developed and studied
in simulations using a rider. However, it was not possible to
replicate these conditions in the wind tunnel. This does not
discount the wind tunnel results. Comparisons of testing
and simulations show that the differences in drag from tests
with and without a rider tend to be of similar magnitude.
Sample tests were conducted with SystemSix against
key competitors from above using a rider. While there is
significant uncertainty in these results, they did confirm the
trend seen in isolated bicycle testing as shown above and
show that SystemSix has lower drag than its competitors.

[mcteague]

Typically, the better bike companies are testing their bikes with a mannequin to simulate turbulence of a rider's legs et al.

Do the mannequin’s legs spin? If not, the results mean even less.

Tim

[Mark McM]

Do the mannequin’s legs spin? If not, the results mean even less.

What possible justification can you have for claiming that results mean even less if the mannequin's legs don't move? It might be true that they don't mean as much if the legs don't move, but how can they mean less?


As far as whether wind tunnel tests use mannequins, some do, some don't. For example:

Cervelo used to test with a mannequin produced from a 3D laser scan of Dave Zabriskie (static, no moving legs). Here is the mannequin mounted on several different bikes:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/images/2/28672-work-test7.jpg


When Speedplay want to test their new aero pedals, they used a mannequin that was the bottom half of a body, with moving legs:

http://speedplay.com/windtunnel/big/IW8L4021.jpg
http://speedplay.com/windtunnel/big/Run-003_j.jpg


As I understand, when the German 'Tour' magazine does wind tunnel testing of complete bicycles, they use a half-mannequin with moving legs similar to the Speedplay mannequin.

[Clean39T]

It's great that they are so precisely simulating their target market.
.

Wonder if the mannequin has a beer gut and pedals like a frog...

[Bob Ross]

I'm pretty sure Sagan would kick ass against 99.5% of other humans on any high end bike, and maybe even my Ultegra Strong steel steed.

At the risk of sounding like a fanboi: If an Ultegra Strong isn't a "high end bike" we're all delusional.

Talk about First World Problems! :banana:



Oh yeah, and just to keep this on-topic: That Cannondale is fugly. But not as fugly as the Canyon.

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[Clean39T]

I have no clue, not being that target market.

And anyway that target market never tells the truth about itself.
.

There was a guy on one of these insane triathlon bikes at a century event I rode a few weeks back, kitted out w the giant derailleur pulleys and all that jazz.

The ride was pretty much all up and down, mostly on broken pavement and backroads.

Whatever blows your hair back I guess.



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[jrsbike]

Forty five seconds per twenty five miles at $13,000. That's a bargain. In my past as a motorcycle racer our teams spent a whole lot more just to grab a few tenths for much greater distances.

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