OT: Mechanical engineers/CAD designers, need some advice

[MattTuck]

I have an idea for a cycling product. I am wondering what the best way to get my idea from concept to prototype to (if it works) product, and do it for relatively cheap.

Have considered free lance designers, but I think that might be too expensive. Also, I have connections with a few universities that have engineering programs where students work on a 'real life' product as part of their course work. I think this could be a good route if I were able to find a mechanical engineer that is also on the college cycling team. However, not sure of the caliber of work from student designers.

Any other avenues you folks can think of?

I also noticed that Paragon Machine Works claims to offer 'design' services along with fabrication. So that is another thought.

It seems with the democratization of CAD capabilities and 3D printing, prototyping should not be too expensive. Any and all thoughts/advice appreciated.

[unterhausen]

It seems with the democratization of CAD capabilities and 3D printing, prototyping should not be too expensive. Any and all thoughts/advice appreciated.
this is really only true if you can do the work yourself. Everyone who knows how to use these tools wants to get paid just the same as they always did. Some of the rapid turn machine shops are really good though, and the prices are not too bad. But you do have to have a design to hand them.

I taught a senior design course one semester. Some of the students were really good, some were so-so. It's difficult to get a fully thought out design done in one semester. They can build things though. At Penn State, it's not inexpensive.

[cadence90]

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[fogrider]

first, do a patent search. i'm willing to bet someone has a patent on it. if not, find a patent lawyer before doing anything else.

[Mikej]

I can tell you this - you are not going to like how much it costs - our 3-d printer material costs like it came from the Rapha super secret club.

[MattTuck]

this is really only true if you can do the work yourself. Everyone who knows how to use these tools wants to get paid just the same as they always did. Some of the rapid turn machine shops are really good though, and the prices are not too bad. But you do have to have a design to hand them.

I taught a senior design course one semester. Some of the students were really good, some were so-so. It's difficult to get a fully thought out design done in one semester. They can build things though. At Penn State, it's not inexpensive.

Good to know, thanks.

As an architect and designer, I will echo what unterhausen wrote.

The cost of design development, analysis, prototyping, production documents, and production will obviously vary greatly with the tolerance and performance requirements of the component you have in mind.

Resolving a saddle bag is clearly a completely different problem than resolving, say, an adjustable disc-brake mount, etc. It is pretty impossible to give more specific advice without having any more specific details.
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It is not an overly complicated concept. Just a possibly unique take on something we all use.

first, do a patent search. i'm willing to bet someone has a patent on it. if not, find a patent lawyer before doing anything else.

Yes, possibly. I used to do prior art searches, and freedom to operate (also known as right to use) patent searches in a previous job. I haven't found anything yet that would preclude me from selling the design, but a more comprehensive search is probably in order. Honestly, I am not sure it is a patentable idea... just a new approach that I think might have some benefits.

I can tell you this - you are not going to like how much it costs - our 3-d printer material costs like it came from the Rapha super secret club.

Still probably cheaper than trying to get it machined out of a block of metal. Besides, isn't that what kickstarter is for?? :) :)

[unterhausen]

I agree that the patent landscape for anything bicycle related is pretty bleak.

I was involved in preparing a proposal for work on 3d printing, and I was shocked what it cost to buy titanium powder. It really depends on what you want to build. The advantage of 3d printing is that there doesn't have to be much waste. If you can do initial prints in PLA or ABS that cuts costs a lot.

[Veloo]

Agree about the search. Do a thorough one cuz you never know what you might find in Asia/ Alibaba/ Ali Express.

Have you built a working model or is it just an idea at this point?
I like to have something physical to play with so you can figure out if it will actually work.

[JAGI410]

Download Autodesk Fusion 360. Its “free” for hobbyists after the trial expires. It’s pretty easy to learn with the help of YouTube. Use this to sketch your idea. If you’re confident in what you’ve made, you can export straight to a 3D printer.

[unterhausen]

I like to have something physical to play with so you can figure out if it will actually work.
I learn so much from a 3d model without wasting time or money with machining something that I would always do this first, especially if I was paying money for it.

Fusion 360 is a good recommendation, it's free for small businesses as well as hobbyists. Beats laying out nearly $10k for solidworks, that's for sure.

[David Kirk]

I would do two things -

- don't worry about a patent unless you think the sales the item generates will be so high that it can support the legal fight when one of the big three steal the idea.

- get in touch with Mark at Paragon and talk with him about the part. He will be able to guide you on the fine points of the design so that you don't design a part that is unnecessarily difficult to machine. So often designers spec a radius or something similar that is unimportant to the end function of the part but that is super difficult (spendy) to machine. Many shops will just cut the part and not tell you that making a very small and insignificant change can lower the per part price dramatically.

dave

[cmg]

cardboard model at a larger than life scale. If it is a mechanism you can see what works and what doesn't . ever made a mechanical hand? it shows where the conflicts are.

[HenryA]

Make a wooden model and tinker with it until you can see that it will work, then send it to be made in metal. Once you have a functional prototype, then start thinking about making it pretty.

Assuming you have some appropriate skills, the first step costs you almost nothing but your time. And the next step will be less expensive since you have focused toward the desired end result.

As others have mentioned here, unless you have the personal ability to draw this in CAD and then export for cutting or printing, you will have to pay someone to do all that. Of course they will want to be paid. Taking a napkin sketch to start this process will cost you more in the long run because you have not refined the part yourself.

(And what Dave Kirk wrote)

[Veloo]

Is this a job for Sugru?

[93svt96]

I can help with cnc and 3d printing if it's not real big, which I assume it's not. I can do some cad work if its not over complicated.

[wasfast]

Most folks have a product idea and focus on the design, prototyping, design turns and perhaps getting an initial volume made. If your goal is just to sell a few dozen or even a hundred gizmos, so be it. If you want to sell any sort of volume, the channel and go to market is actually much harder these days. There are SO MANY PRODUCTS out there that it's extremely difficult execute. Think single fish in the ocean.

The costs of go to market (manufacturing, pipeline fill, inventory, packaging, learning products, marketing, promotion, returns, failures) are not small and highly underestimated by just about anyone that hasn't done it.

My main point is that the product is only half the situation. Think the whole thing through.

[HenryA]

Is this a job for Sugru?

Could be!

[MattTuck]

Is this a job for Sugru?

Unfortunately, no. This would need to be machined or 3D printed.

I can help with cnc and 3d printing if it's not real big, which I assume it's not. I can do some cad work if its not over complicated.

Thanks, I will PM you.

Most folks have a product idea and focus on the design, prototyping, design turns and perhaps getting an initial volume made. If your goal is just to sell a few dozen or even a hundred gizmos, so be it. If you want to sell any sort of volume, the channel and go to market is actually much harder these days. There are SO MANY PRODUCTS out there that it's extremely difficult execute. Think single fish in the ocean.

The costs of go to market (manufacturing, pipeline fill, inventory, packaging, learning products, marketing, promotion, returns, failures) are not small and highly underestimated by just about anyone that hasn't done it.

My main point is that the product is only half the situation. Think the whole thing through.

Agree 100% with everything you say. The chances of making 10's of thousands off this is essentially zero. Which is why I thought finding a student team might be a good solution. Learning experience for them, and they could go through the process of design/testing, and fabricating it. If it has potential, maybe a kickstarter type campaign.

I just think it is a cool idea and a potential gap in the market, I'd be very happy if some young kids used it to gain some real product development experience, and I got 4 or 5 products for my own use. Anything more than that would be a win.

[likebikes]

talk to rugbysecondrow, he has a cycling product that he has designed and brought to market.

[Louis]

Matt, have you spoken to these guys? As you know, of course, they're right across the street from you...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8840/17842484993_25cc3f7f80_b.jpg

https://mshopdartmouththayer.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cropped-all-quiet.jpg

[MattTuck]

Matt, have you spoken to these guys? As you know, of course, they're right across the street from you...



Trying to get a project that is not student sourced into their stack of projects has been difficult in the past (heard this through the grape vine). If you know of a good contact person there, I'd love to give it a shot. Also, it is summer now, and may not see any progress for 6 months. But would obviously be more convenient.

[Louis]

If you know of a good contact person there, I'd love to give it a shot.

I checked the list of managers before making my post above and they're all new to me. (of course, I graduated in '84, so that's not a big surprise)

I'd wander over and go down to the machine shop (it used to be in the basement; since they've expanded it may have moved) and see if any of the shop instructors / managers are around. You might be able to feel them out for options. At a minimum, I would hope that you could get one of them to take a look at your drawings / schematics and give you some suggestions on how a few samples could be produced at minimum cost.

Good Luck

[unterhausen]

This may be uninteresting, but I expect a similar situation exists at other engineering schools. Accreditation and industry input mean this sort of thing has been widely adopted.

Penn State engineering students have access to machine tools. For 3d printers and waterjet, there is a cost that has to be charged to an official college budget. The simplest way to sponsor a project is to go through a capstone project, which costs $3500. $1000 of that is the student team's budget for materials and travel. Often for private projects, the sponsor visits the university and there are no travel expenses. For protected IP, there is an additional charge. The web site doesn't list it, but I think it's just a standard fee. http://www.lf.psu.edu/sponsors/SubmitaProject.aspx

They they seem to be really hard up for projects every fall semester. That probably doesn't help though.