Runners in the bike lane -- Please explain the logic?

[RFC]

I was a distance runner for 20 years and would always take the option of the sidewalk over the street.

Why are so many runners and walkers insisting on using the bike lanes when a safer option is 4 feet away?

[Macadamia]

same deal as riding is what I always assumed, sidewalk has segments that are varying heights and go up and down with cross streets and gutters

the more confusing thing to me is why they're always going against traffic too

[RFC]

same deal as riding is what I always assumed, sidewalk has segments that are varying heights and go up and down with cross streets and gutters

the more confusing thing to me is why they're always going against traffic too

I ran both track and cross country. Humans are evolved to deal with small obstacles like curbs.

[Lanternrouge]

same deal as riding is what I always assumed, sidewalk has segments that are varying heights and go up and down with cross streets and gutters

the more confusing thing to me is why they're always going against traffic too

When I was growing up we were told to walk against traffic so you could see the oncoming traffic.

[cmbicycles]

I often wondered the same when I saw runners in the road rather than the sidewalk. I was told it was because there was less chance of tripping due to an uneven sidewalk... sounded lame to me but I guess it's a preference thing for those who haven't been blessed with hearing my obviously better point of view. ;)

[RFC]

When I was growing up we were told to walk against traffic so you could see the oncoming traffic.

Correct! I actually prefer it when they run against traffic. That way we can see each other and adjust.

[RyanH]

Runners are supposed to be on the opposite side of traffic. There's not many things that cause me more anxiety on a bike than having to pass runners going the same direction as me. There must be some correlation of running on the right side and erratic changes in movement without looking around first.

[rnhood]

I believe the reason is actually the compliance of the tarmac (pavement). Runners often choose the street over the sidewalk as there is less shock since concrete has virtually zero compliance. It might not be a big difference when wearing running shoes however, like seasoned aficionados in every other sport, they can often feel or detect everything. A softer surface is slightly easier on their joints and bones. Of course there is probably other reasons too, as mentioned in this thread.

[cadence90]

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[Plum Hill]

Forest Park in St. Louis always had a problem with walkers and runners on the signed bicycle trail. It got so bad a designated walking and running trail was built. And they still take to the bike path.

[stev0]

Sounds like there are a few different issues people are talking about, but I'll add a few bits to the discussion:

I've been hit by cars many (MANY) more times while running on the sidewalk than I have cycling. Usually they are pulling in/out of driveways or rolling through intersections - that extra three feet and visibility you get by running on the street can be pretty useful. For some reason, people are even less trained to look for runners than they are for cyclists. That extra distance can also be useful at night when there are threats other than cars (in the countryside or the 'burbs I run in the middle of the road when running at night).

Streets surfaces tend to be more uniform than sidewalks - that can be pretty stressful for people to run on. I can't say I've noticed asphalt being more compliant than concrete, but it's usually easier on my body to run on shoulder than it is to run on the sidewalk. That being said.. many streets slope downwards towards the edge, and that can be stressful over time too. Especially in urban environments where the sidewalk is totally wrecked, or if there's snow but only the streets get plowed.

Busy sidewalks can also be an issue - other pedestrians are oblivious to/don't care much for runners and it can be dangerous to run through crowded sidewalks just as it would be dangerous to ride a bike or a bird scooter on a sidewalk. Obstacles on the road are pretty sure to be cars and motorcycles that drive more or less predictably (at least, more so than pedestrians.. I can't count the number of times I've called out something like "on your left" and had someone jump left, or freeze in the middle of the road/path/sidewalk" .. cars and motorcycles tend to try not to drive onto the shoulder).

Have lived in suburbs and urban environments in CA and UK. all of the above have held true.
That being said, I do 90% of my running on the sidewalk when there is one. I always run opposite the direction of traffic, even when I'm on the sidewalk.

[unterhausen]

I always liked running on asphalt more than on a sidewalk. It does feel softer, which intellectually I know is ridiculous. Go hit some asphalt with a hammer and see how much it gives.

As far as runners in the bike lane, Airzound is your answer. Wait until you get real close. Helps control the impulse to smack them on the back of the head as you pass.

[oldpotatoe]

I was a distance runner for 20 years and would always take the option of the sidewalk over the street.

Why are so many runners and walkers insisting on using the bike lanes when a safer option is 4 feet away?

I was too LSD runner but found the road was much more even and 'forgiving', more so than concrete sidewalks. As long as they run facing traffic, I'm ok with it. For post number 2, around here, facing traffic is the rule/law..

[sitzmark]

Rich. Cyclists who argue and defend their right to use roadways arguing against pedestrians who have the same rights. Ha!

[biker72]

Not a runner but an extensive walker. I walk in the bike lane against traffic. The sidewalks here are treacherous at best.

[cmbicycles]

Rich. Cyclists who argue and defend their right to use roadways arguing against pedestrians who have the same rights. Ha!
No one is saying runners dont have a right to use public roads and lanes of travel, just questioning the "perceived right" to run anywhere without regard for their own safety or those around them. Unfortunately the same story applies for much of society, where one's self is the only person who matters.

Both cyclists and runners (and all road users for that matter) have rights AND responsibilites, but they aren't the same for both.

[Seramount]

my neighborhood is currently part of a multi-million dollar city-wide effort to have sidewalks installed where none previously existed.

it's just slightly perplexing to see most pedestrians avoiding the brand new swaths of concrete to still use the street.

[jimcav]

I believe the reason is actually the compliance of the tarmac (pavement). Runners often choose the street over the sidewalk as there is less shock since concrete has virtually zero compliance. It might not be a big difference when wearing running shoes however, like seasoned aficionados in every other sport, they can often feel or detect everything. A softer surface is slightly easier on their joints and bones. Of course there is probably other reasons too, as mentioned in this thread.

ran for over 35 years, none of it "jogging", I could feel the difference noticeably even as a young guy. Now after hip surgery (black ice crash) I feel everything more and so prefer dirt trails. Sidewalks were worse than frozen ground in Alaska, and maybe the only thing close was an Air Craft Carrier deck.
jim

[sitzmark]

No one is saying runners dont have a right to use public roads and lanes of travel, just questioning the "perceived right" to run anywhere without regard for their own safety or those around them. Unfortunately the same story applies for much of society, where one's self is the only person who matters.

Both cyclists and runners (and all road users for that matter) have rights AND responsibilites, but they aren't the same for both.

Just odd, as I know many automobile drivers/owners who use EXACTLY this same argument for why bicycles should not be on the road.

[Gummee]

Just odd, as I know many automobile drivers/owners who use EXACTLY this same argument for why bicycles should not be on the road.

Funny how that works, ain't it?!

M

[makoti]

the more confusing thing to me is why they're always going against traffic too

You always run facing traffic so you can step off if need be. Run/walk facing. Ride with.
And yes, concrete is really hard on the joints.

[redir]

I believe the reason is actually the compliance of the tarmac (pavement). Runners often choose the street over the sidewalk as there is less shock since concrete has virtually zero compliance. It might not be a big difference when wearing running shoes however, like seasoned aficionados in every other sport, they can often feel or detect everything. A softer surface is slightly easier on their joints and bones. Of course there is probably other reasons too, as mentioned in this thread.

This is exactly why. The concrete is ten times harder and you can feel it. I'll choose to run in the grass strips if they are available otherwise it's the pavement. Never concrete unless I must.

[Look585]

I blame Strava.

[SoCal Al]

I dunno, for me the biggest threat (if you could call it that) is coming up on a runner or walker going the same direction as the rider and calling out "On your left" only to have them jump into your path. So I always try to give them more room and yell further back so I can see/adjust to their skittishness. Unless there's no room with cars then it's every man for themselves.

[biker72]

I dunno, for me the biggest threat (if you could call it that) is coming up on a runner or walker going the same direction as the rider and calling out "On your left" only to have them jump into your path. So I always try to give them more room and yell further back so I can see/adjust to their skittishness. Unless there's no room with cars then it's every man for themselves.

Too often they have earbuds in their ears listening to music. It would take an atomic blast to get their attention.

[Mzilliox]

this is funny, the world needed this thread for sure.

[shoota]

Too often they have earbuds in their ears listening to music. It would take an atomic blast to get their attention.

Exactly. Honestly it's safer to just blow by them without saying anything. It may scare them but at least they won't flail all over the path like they're being attacked by bees.

[Jaybee]

“On your left” seems to inspire people to jump to the left- the exact opposite reaction of what is intended.

I’ve stopped using words and started using a bell (spurcycle, which you can hear even above your ted talk or yacht rock or whatever is in your earbuds to insulate you from the world around you).

[monkeybanana86]

Runners, scooters, other kind of scooters, boosted boards, skaters, delivery trucks, and bikers going the wrong way, electric bikes going too fast but not fast enough. Cool that some people want to be active we just need huge lanes now with that green paint.

[TiminVA]

Here's my joke for the day. What's a bike lane? It's that thing in my town that's 1/4 mile long is usually fully of trash. I'm both a cyclist and runner and while I prefer dirt trails to run on, asphalt is a noticeably better surface to run on than concrete.

[Gummee]

“On your left” seems to inspire people to jump to the left- the exact opposite reaction of what is intended.

I’ve stopped using words and started using a bell (spurcycle, which you can hear even above your ted talk or yacht rock or whatever is in your earbuds to insulate you from the world around you).

I've standardized on 'Passing!' Since we're here in the US of A, and most people on the MUTs drive, they move to their right.

All I got using 'on your left' was people moving left...

M

[benb]

I've always wondered where the "always walk/run against traffic, it's safer" thing came from.

I am guessing it didn't come from anything scientific or meaningful and instead comes from the same place "non cyclists on bikes" got their information about riding against traffic and bouncing back and forth between sidewalk/street being safer.

The other thing about cyclists or drivers complaining about runners in the street is runners are not defined as operating vehicles, cyclists & auto drivers are defined as operating vehicles under the law. Cyclists travel at a speed a lot closer to the auto traffic.

I don't have any conflict with runners in the street, there aren't many of them. The things that odd me out are the aforementioned running against traffic, the constant use of earbuds and/or looking at the smartphone, and the new behavior I've seen in the past 5 years where when you are approaching them and they are riding against traffic they decide to run out to their right into the path of the cars instead of to the left onto the shoulder. That one REALLY mystifies me as to why you would elect to go right into traffic possibly in a situation where you can't see the oncoming traffic instead of going left to the shoulder. They also block your path to move out into the road to avoid them.

[redir]

A nice bell is the best thing to get people to move or stand still on the MUP's. It's like a universal language, everyone understands it.

I kind of wish that the MUP's had the same rules of the road, pedestrians face traffic.

[wallymann]

the more confusing thing to me is why they're always going against traffic too

children are taught that here in the US. well...they were.

i'm troubled by people riding bikes against traffic, i thought every child learned the rules of the road.

ride a bike with traffic, ambulate against traffic.

[Spdntrxi]

I don't mind if they use, but dont act like you own it... in other words run against traffic and get the hell out my way when I'm coming.

[Dave Ferris]

As a 65 yr old runner who's been at for about 42 years and has run around 65K miles, I'll add to the other posts -- yes the street is WAY more compliment then sidewalk/ cement.

The strand between Redondo and Manhattan Beach is probably the hardest surface on a runner's joints. We just just got back from a weekend in Ventura and ditto on the section around the Promenade.

Yes dirt trail is always a preference. Wood chip is actually first but with the exception of a short section in Manhattan Beach , doesn't exist in LA. Have to go up to Eugene, Or.

I always try to run facing traffic and always give bikes the right of way and a wide berth when I see them coming in advance. I've noticed over the years that many younger or newer runners are oblivious to everything.

I've had problems myself with younger runners wearing buds on the trails, running 2, 3, even 4 abreast on a fireroad oblivious to me coming up behind them on my Mtn bike. On dirt Mulholland or other sections in the Santa Monicas, I've literally had to slow to 2-3 mph and then give out a loud "behind you" to pass. It can be very dangerous on a Mtn. bike to slow down that much and have your tire get caught in a rut.

[djdj]

"Get off my [lawn, road, bike lane]!"

[unterhausen]

I do feel a little uncomfortable about this thread. I generally support people in their decision to walk or run. I suppose I might feel differently about this if I lived in an area where it was really hard to get out of the bike lane due to traffic. Never really had that problem, and if I do, I can figure a way around it. We do have large groups of joggers from either the high school or university, and they can be a pain due to their numbers and obliviousness. Even then, the inconvenience is relatively short-lived. We have a couple of bike paths I end up on occasionally that see a lot of walkers. They could be more considerate if they would consider they are on a bike path and might see a cyclist occasionally. I just go their speed until it's safe to pass. Other than the occasional upbraiding of the owner of an off-leash ill-behaved dog, I never say anything other than "passing"

I rode on a 600km brevet with a guy who would buzz pedestrians that weren't walking in accordance with his interpretation of the law. At least that's what I thought I saw. Maybe he just buzzed everyone, I don't know. I even saw him buzzing pedestrians on the Hudson River Walkway Bridge. It was mostly empty when we crossed it. Never wanted to scream at someone about their riding that bad since my racing days. This is exactly the same kind of behavior we hate in motorists, and for very good reason. The guy probably would buzz cyclists if he didn't approve of their riding, but the good news is he didn't own a car. When the ride was over, he called a ride service.

[oldpotatoe]

maybe the only thing close was an Air Craft Carrier deck.[/B]
jim

I hear ya brother..5 laps=1 mile, "I got my tan off the coast of Iran"..:)

[HenryA]

A lot of this is about predicability. More than just rules for the sake of rules, we need to have some expectation that others around us will behave in a more or less predictable fashion. Drive right, walk facing traffic, stop at stop signs, etc.

One of the things that will really upset road or sidewalk users is uncertainty about other users intentions. This is completely understandable and when you look at this problem from another user’s viewpoint it becomes easier to see what you need to do to fit in. Everyone needs clues about the expected behavior of other users so that they may conduct their own behavior safely.

When the clues aren’t there, people become frightened of the outcome. Often that fear is expressed as anger at the non-conforming user. Think about this the next time you are on the road and maybe wonder how your behavior might affect others.

The world is populated by a wide variety of people, not all are as sophisticated as most members here. Some are outright dumbasses. Know they are there and act accordingly. Most importantly don’t be one of them. Think about how your actions will be received by other road users. Be safe.

[jrsbike]

I don't mind the runners however I am perplexed by the number of evening/night runners I see who do not have reflective clothing or lights. Not uncommon in the Boston area. Scares the xxxx out of me when I come upon them suddenly.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't mind if they use, but dont act like you own it... in other words run against traffic and get the hell out my way when I'm coming.

"Get off my [lawn, road, bike lane]!"
Rich. Cyclists who argue and defend their right to use roadways arguing against pedestrians who have the same rights. Ha!

winter already??---->>>>:):rolleyes::eek:

[jimcav]

I hear ya brother..5 laps=1 mile, "I got my tan off the coast of Iran"..:)

That was my total time aboard, ran daily, ate many burgers and curly fries at the 24hr San Juan Grill, can't imagine a full tour on such a floating city. My rack was catapult adjacent--again, no idea how people adapt, but they must.

Beat Space Force!

[adamhell]

here in SF, we have the panhandle, which is a long-ish stretch of park that joins golden gate park to the wiggle (bicycle commute route). on the panhandle there is a bike path and a non bike path, except recently they designated the bike path as a runner's and walker's path also. :confused:

the bike path used to be designated as cyclists only, but so many people would run on it anyway i guess the city gave in. meanwhile, there is a perfectly good path with no cyclists on it where runners (and walkers, and dogs) could run with no risk of getting hit. i guess some people just hate things that make sense.

[RFC]

I've always wondered where the "always walk/run against traffic, it's safer" thing came from.

I am guessing it didn't come from anything scientific or meaningful and instead comes from the same place "non cyclists on bikes" got their information about riding against traffic and bouncing back and forth between sidewalk/street being safer.

The other thing about cyclists or drivers complaining about runners in the street is runners are not defined as operating vehicles, cyclists & auto drivers are defined as operating vehicles under the law. Cyclists travel at a speed a lot closer to the auto traffic.

I don't have any conflict with runners in the street, there aren't many of them. The things that odd me out are the aforementioned running against traffic, the constant use of earbuds and/or looking at the smartphone, and the new behavior I've seen in the past 5 years where when you are approaching them and they are riding against traffic they decide to run out to their right into the path of the cars instead of to the left onto the shoulder. That one REALLY mystifies me as to why you would elect to go right into traffic possibly in a situation where you can't see the oncoming traffic instead of going left to the shoulder. They also block your path to move out into the road to avoid them.

Basically, the logic is sound. If you can see oncoming traffic, you can jump out of the way if necessary.

[oldpotatoe]

That was my total time aboard, ran daily, ate many burgers and curly fries at the 24hr San Juan Grill, can't imagine a full tour on such a floating city. My rack was catapult adjacent--again, no idea how people adapt, but they must.

Beat Space Force!

I have been 'lucky' to be in a stateroom next to cat track 3 times(out of about 7 deployments)....great when it's cold outside, really miserable when it's hot(think Indian Ocean)...believe or not, eventually you can sleep through a launch:eek:

Yup, mid-rats..sliders with an egg on top..."it's more than a job, it's an adventure"

space force, what a giggle. :butt:

sorry for the drift..

[redir]

There's no way in hell I'm gonna run with traffic comming up from behind my back. At least on a bike you are moving close to thier speed so that gives them the extra second to see you before they hit you.

I'll face traffic when running that way when I see them staring at their cell phones I'm ready to jump!

[dasein]

Unfortunately, where I live has no bike lanes available. I run as well as ride. I prefer the sidewalks where they exist, and when I'm forced onto the road, I run based on visibility first, how crowned the terrain is second, and where I have the best option of getting off the road. Many of our roads abut a hillside/mountain side so there is little option for moving left of oncoming traffic. So, I will often run right in the middle of the road glancing over my shoulder every 10-20 yards. The terrain forces me all over the place, and pisses drivers off. Two lane mountain roads makes life tricky, but fortunately traffic is very light.There's no way in hell I'm gonna run with traffic comming up from behind my back. At least on a bike you are moving close to thier speed so that gives them the extra second to see you before they hit you.

I'll face traffic when running that way when I see them staring at their cell phones I'm ready to jump!

[enr1co]

Makes sense for runners to go against traffic in the bike lanes. My only issue is when runners either solo or two abreast take up the entire lane. they don’t move inside or single file when seeing me approach and force me out of the bike lane into traffic to avoid hitting them. This seems to be happening more these days.:mad: