View Full Version : Sram engineering + reliability strike again
rain dogs
06-15-2018, 08:07 AM
"That's probably the best legs I've ever had in a race and then the ****ing bike just let us down again, I can't say any more about it, to be honest." Mark Christian
And then his DS:
"Just want to say what a privilege it was to be behind @MarkChristian8 today @tds so so strong., only to be dropped by mechanical no 4698 this season... This lab rat thing is now costing results. sorry again"
That'll be a few furious sponsors knowing the team is spilling the beans on Sram Force 1x road and the 3T strada.
Usually they just throw the mechanic under the bus.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-suisse-bike-mechanical-costs-christian-a-shot-at-stage-victory/
oldpotatoe
06-15-2018, 08:22 AM
"That's probably the best legs I've ever had in a race and then the ****ing bike just let us down again, I can't say any more about it, to be honest." Mark Christian
And then his DS:
"Just want to say what a privilege it was to be behind @MarkChristian8 today @tds so so strong., only to be dropped by mechanical no 4698 this season... This lab rat thing is now costing results. sorry again"
That'll be a few furious sponsors knowing the team is spilling the beans on Sram Force 1x road and the 3T strada.
Usually they just throw the mechanic under the bus.
[URL="http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-suisse-bike-mechanical-costs-christian-a-shot-at-stage-victory/
and
[QUOTE]Cyclingnews understands the bikes have been unpopular amongst the Aqua Blue Sport riders since their implementation, and while they have taken one victory on the bike earlier this year, losing out on a chance of stage success at the same race where the team's first professional victory occurred last year will be a bitter pill to swallow.
Clean39T
06-15-2018, 08:35 AM
Didn't George Bennett have his Campag R Der go into crash mode at the base of the Zoncolan?
1X is stupid, but it doesn't have an exclusive...
I'll take mechanical 2x10 or 11...thanks and peace-out.
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El Chaba
06-15-2018, 08:44 AM
Who-other than the sponsor-didn't see this coming?
rain dogs
06-15-2018, 08:51 AM
Didn't George Bennett have his Campag R Der go into crash mode at the base of the Zoncolan?
1X is stupid, but it doesn't have an exclusive...
I'll take mechanical 2x10 or 11...thanks and peace-out.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Of course mechanical problems aren't exclusive to any brand and one here or there is normal. What isn't normal and is exclusive is a rider and a DS saying this has happened nearly 5000 times (likely hyperbole) and calling out the sponsors with such vigor... to say reliability is so bad it's worth mentioning it's costing results. That is unique.
madsciencenow
06-15-2018, 09:00 AM
In my experience 1x is great for MTBing and I’m guessing maybe ok for cross/gravel but I honestly don’t have a clue why you’d want this in the pro-peloton?
I’m with Clean on the 2x drive.
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Clean39T
06-15-2018, 09:12 AM
Of course mechanical problems aren't exclusive to any brand and one here or there is normal. What isn't normal and is exclusive is a rider and a DS saying this has happened nearly 5000 times (likely hyperbole) and calling out the sponsors with such vigor... to say reliability is so bad it's worth mentioning it's costing results. That is unique.Good point.
But we do see a fair number of silly things w electro ders...
Would it be any less entertaining to watch the pros battle it out on steel frames, and mechanical/alloy bits? Do absolute speeds matter, or just relative?
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Cicli
06-15-2018, 09:19 AM
sHram is funny.
bicycletricycle
06-15-2018, 09:26 AM
Those bikes need a chain guide.
NHAero
06-15-2018, 09:30 AM
+1000
those bikes need a chain guide.
Veloo
06-15-2018, 09:34 AM
Are the chainrings at least narrow-wide?
charliedid
06-15-2018, 09:38 AM
Bike racers are funny.
Dirtdiggler
06-15-2018, 09:48 AM
Time to place SRAM decals on Shimano derailleurs again
mktng
06-15-2018, 09:58 AM
nice looking bikes though.
It'd be REAL hard for me to not be furious if I was a pro and the equipment failing was my limiter.
The amount of hard work those guys put in, and the amount of time and effort their mechanics put in to keep everything fresh and working perfectly... it's natural for them to expect their bikes to keep working through a race. I choose relatively conservative stuff (rim brakes, mechanical setup) and I seem to be able to keep my bike working perfectly 99.99% of the time, without a pro budget for parts replacement at the drop of a hat. (I.e. I am often riding with worn chains, cassettes, etc.. that would be more prone to issues)
I saw someone have a Di2 cable failure last weekend riding B2VT. Luckily there was support at the rest stops and the mechanic there was able to replace/fix his setup on the spot, super nice that they had brought spare parts to fix Di2/Ui2.
FriarQuade
06-15-2018, 10:53 AM
I'll put $20 on this not being a SRAM problem. Put a SRAM cassette back on the bike and the problem would likely go away, put that drivetrain on another bike and I'm positive it would go away.
bicycletricycle
06-15-2018, 11:44 AM
I'll put $20 on this not being a SRAM problem. Put a SRAM cassette back on the bike and the problem would likely go away, put that drivetrain on another bike and I'm positive it would go away.
That is certainly possible.
simonov
06-15-2018, 11:51 AM
I'll put $20 on this not being a SRAM problem. Put a SRAM cassette back on the bike and the problem would likely go away, put that drivetrain on another bike and I'm positive it would go away.
Beat me to it. The SRAM 1x, whether or not it's ideal or even passable for pro level racing, has been pretty well sorted out. Putting it on a wonky frame with no chain retention and non-SRAM cassettes is just asking for issues.
oldpotatoe
06-15-2018, 12:15 PM
Didn't George Bennett have his Campag R Der go into crash mode at the base of the Zoncolan?
1X is stupid, but it doesn't have an exclusive...
I'll take mechanical 2x10 or 11...thanks and peace-out.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Cyclingnews understands the bikes have been unpopular amongst the Aqua Blue Sport riders since their implementation
Doesn't seem like a one time 'issue'...:eek: Plus for right above.....he dropped his chain, off the crank, and a mention that the 'clutch' gave up..doubt it has anything to do with the cogset. Plus the team has had more than this one issue with one rear der...And I'm sure these rigs are massaged by sram tech guys...
unterhausen
06-15-2018, 12:26 PM
SRAM wouldn't be as popular in the MTB world if their clutch designs had any sort of design problem at all. I wonder how much of that drivetrain isn't SRAM, chainring maybe?
OTOH, I always thought road 1x was pretty silly, unless it's for a relatively flat TT
oldpotatoe
06-15-2018, 12:37 PM
SRAM wouldn't be as popular in the MTB world if their clutch designs had any sort of design problem at all. I wonder how much of that drivetrain isn't SRAM, chainring maybe?
OTOH, I always thought road 1x was pretty silly, unless it's for a relatively flat TT
Who was it, famous bike toss during TdF, ITT and he wanted his front der and small ring off(?)...David Millar?
ducati2
06-15-2018, 12:43 PM
Not sure if it’s the one but Bjarne Riis had a nice toss during a TDF ITT.
Jaybee
06-15-2018, 01:03 PM
So the team owner is throwing 3T and Sram under the bus? Isn't he the one that approved a 1x only bike as a sponsor?
There are a million reasons for chain drops, 1x or 2x.
Though I am no pro (racer or mechanic) I will say that I've had more chain drops from poorly adjusted front derailleurs on the road than I ever have on my SRAM 1x gravel and MTB setups. That's because I've never dropped a 1x chain.
bicycletricycle
06-15-2018, 01:07 PM
Who was it, famous bike toss during TdF, ITT and he wanted his front der and small ring off(?)...David Millar?
Yes, I think it was David , in a prologue in London?
Jaybee
06-15-2018, 01:26 PM
Yes, I think it was David , in a prologue in London?
This is what I remember as well. Well before the advent of narrow-wide tooth profiling and clutch RDs. Also seem to remember that Millar said afterwards that it was his decision and his fault.
bigbill
06-15-2018, 01:26 PM
Yes, I think it was David , in a prologue in London?
I remember, he hit bumpy section and the chain came off on the crankarm side. 2003 Tour, he reached down to put his chain back on.
sitzmark
06-15-2018, 01:26 PM
I don't understand. Why doesn't Delaney just buy the bikes and components he wants to race??
FriarQuade
06-15-2018, 01:34 PM
I don't understand. Why doesn't Delaney just buy the bikes and components he wants to race??
That's a $300,000 swing in budget at a minimum.
El Chaba
06-15-2018, 01:41 PM
I don't understand. Why doesn't Delaney just buy the bikes and components he wants to race??
There would be a large exchange of cash to have a team ride bikes that are *THAT* stupid....
Jaybee
06-15-2018, 01:42 PM
I don't understand. Why doesn't Delaney just buy the bikes and components he wants to race??
Not exactly sure how this works, but they were on Ridley last year. Was 3t his only bike option? Or just the one that offered the best deal of currency and equipment? Surely some bike manufacturer that builds “normal” bikes would be interested in sponsoring a team like Aqua Blue
jemdet
06-15-2018, 01:43 PM
Didn't George Bennett have his Campag R Der go into crash mode at the base of the Zoncolan?
Doesn't L.NL-J run Shimano?
FriarQuade
06-15-2018, 01:51 PM
Not exactly sure how this works, but they were on Ridley last year. Was 3t his only bike option? Or just the one that offered the best deal of currency and equipment? Surely some bike manufacturer that builds “normal” bikes would be interested in sponsoring a team like Aqua Blue
Since the teams title sponsor is a online retailer their equipment sponsors are likely a more complicated situation than most teams. The decision likely involves the team as well as the retail title sponsor There's more to it than here's your stuff and a check. That said they could go to one of the other dozen bike brands they carry but who knows what those conversations were like. It's likely 3T was more motivated than anyone else to go racing with a new bike that needed some exposure and came to the table with a significant amount of cash.
**This is my educated guess having spent 10 seasons in and around professional road racing. **
Doesn't L.NL-J run Shimano?
Lotto NL Jumbo is one of a couple Shimano sponsored teams.
jemdet
06-15-2018, 01:59 PM
Cavendish was no fan of SRAM:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-its-so-rewarding-to-stand-on-the-podium-together/
"And as always happens, my chain came off. It's a problem with SRAM, which we've talked about many times. So my chain came off, my foot came out and Tony was behind me at 50km/h. He has to come up to not go over my back wheel.
Also this, in the 1X world:
http://cdn.velonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/20154806-2532091.jpg
Although Wout declined to throw SRAM under the bus
Clean39T
06-15-2018, 02:24 PM
I remember, he hit bumpy section and the chain came off on the crankarm side. 2003 Tour, he reached down to put his chain back on.Good way to lose a finger...
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sitzmark
06-15-2018, 02:29 PM
That's a $300,000 swing in budget at a minimum.
So winning isn't that important?? Easier to complain. :)
Mark McM
06-15-2018, 02:44 PM
Good way to lose a finger...
On a fixed gear, maybe, but there's no great danger on a freewheel bike. The chain/chainring/crank only move if you move your legs.
bigbill
06-15-2018, 03:25 PM
On a fixed gear, maybe, but there's no great danger on a freewheel bike. The chain/chainring/crank only move if you move your legs.
Lack of flexibility would keep my fingers safe.
weaponsgrade
06-15-2018, 04:49 PM
Well, better them be the lab rat than me.
colker
06-15-2018, 05:45 PM
Well, better them be the lab rat than me.
I will never ride 1x on the road. It never crossed my mind. As far as i am concerned it was a failed experiment from day one.
Burnette
06-15-2018, 06:00 PM
It happened/happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SaPjputNGI
72gmc
06-15-2018, 06:29 PM
Although Wout declined to throw SRAM under the bus
I do enjoy that he's in front of a giant SHIMANO banner
nickl
06-15-2018, 08:11 PM
One thing to have an isolated failure but quite another when a pro team expresses general dissatisfaction with their gear.
SRAM is really pushing speed setups for the sport to the point where it appears they would like to see the FD entirely eliminated. Their fingerprints were all over this and you would have to believe this bad PR is on them.
mtechnica
06-15-2018, 08:19 PM
The hilarious thing is that Shimano 105 works FLAWLESSLY for tens of thousands of miles yet you have pros ****ing around with garbage that causes them to lose races. Just wow.
mtechnica
06-15-2018, 08:20 PM
I will never ride 1x on the road. It never crossed my mind. As far as i am concerned it was a failed experiment from day one.
It’s completely pointless, we have had good doubles since the 1970s for God’s sake.
54ny77
06-15-2018, 08:24 PM
lose on sunday, don't sell on monday....:p;)
Rekalcitrant
06-15-2018, 08:30 PM
I have been riding 1x on the road lately. Why? I think it’s less hassle for CX, and then I used my CX bike for some gravel races in the spring and I wanted to be able to get in some road training on the same bike. Also, it was just an experiment. FWIW, I have mostly been impressed. It’s pretty neat to be able to do more or less everything on one bike, the range afforded by a 10-42 cassette is crazy, the jump between gears hasn’t bothered me as much as I expected, and it’s just nice and simple, easy to maintain, etc. BUT, the thing I am surprised by is that there hasn’t been more talk about losses to friction with a SRAM 1x drivetrain. Compared to the 11s Campy stuff on my road bike, it’s really noisy and just doesn’t feel smooth. I’d be shocked if there aren’t watts being lost here. Have yet to see any talk about this, which surprises me. Have I missed something? Also makes me wonder if the 1x system being used by the pros might be something other than standard issue; maybe it has a smoother clutch RD that ends up more prone to chain drops? Dunno.
FriarQuade
06-15-2018, 11:36 PM
It’s completely pointless, we have had good doubles since the 1970s for God’s sake.
By who's standard? The gear that's available now is so far from what we had in the 90's, much less the 70's. If you want to go back to pay phones, leaded gas, friction shifting, down tube shifters, quill stems and straight blocks go right ahead. Don't be surprised when nobody follows you though.
Progress is rarely a smooth road. **** like this happens and we normally come out better on the other side. Is 1X going to take over on road bikes? Probably not. Is it a good choice for professionals who spend a vast majority of their miles in the big ring, it's getting there. This story line is part of getting there. I'll say it again, I don't think this is a SRAM problem. There's a lot of things a frame manufacturer can do to screw up a drivetrain. SRAM created the 1X craze and they've done a great job of it since day one. There's no reason to think that because it's driving skinny tires it's not going to work as well as it does in every other application.
simonov
06-16-2018, 04:37 AM
One thing to have an isolated failure but quite another when a pro team expresses general dissatisfaction with their gear.
SRAM is really pushing speed setups for the sport to the point where it appears they would like to see the FD entirely eliminated. Their fingerprints were all over this and you would have to believe this bad PR is on them.
How is SRAM pushing 1x setups? 3T designed the bike that this team is using to be 1X for marginal and debatable aero gains and they're using a group designed for cyclocross for top level road racing. SRAM's current generation mechanical FDs are as good, and sometimes better, than those from the other companies. If SRAM was all over the decisions about what this team is using, they'd be on 2x eTap setups, since that's their top of the line race group.
Peter P.
06-16-2018, 05:16 AM
It seems the team should be riding unproven equipment IN TRAINING and leaving the proven setups for races. They can then give the manufacturer feedback under plenty of miles so they can tweak their designs.
My guess is that can't be done due to contract language. Part of the product support may be the requirement to use the parts during competition for visibility/advertising purposes.
batman1425
06-16-2018, 07:09 AM
I don't think it's any secret that Sram is making a coordinated push to 1X for the foreseeable future across it's ranges, but I doubt they would push product they didn't think was capable. They aren't willingly going to set themselves up for a PR disaster.
In reality, I think a sizable portion of the amateur road riding population would be functionally happy with a 1X road setup. I'd say 95-97% of my road riding could be satisfied with a 48T ring and an 11-36 cassette.
Do I think that 1X is appropriate for pro level road? Outside of specific instances (flat crit/tt) No. That said, I doubt someone forced Aqua Blue to take this 3T/Sram deal. Both sides felt they were getting something of value out of this arrangement. Was Aqua Blue in such dire straights for sponsors that they had to take this 3T/Sram proposal or risk folding? They are still on Ridley TT bikes, are they buying those out of pocket, leftovers from last year, a second sponsor deal? Aqua Blue almost certainly had a chance to ponder "you know, is it really a good idea to box ourselves into 1X for the entire season?" Unless they were promised something that Sram has yet to deliver - which none of the reports indicate is the case, this sounds like sour grapes. Plenty of other instances of mech failure ruining stage wins, but you don't see the mud being slung at Campy or Shimano when a chain snaps mid sprint. I think Aqua Blue is passing the hard luck and results onto the equipment issues, regrets the 1X choice (pushback from riders???), and doesn't care if they piss off Sram in the process.
batman1425
06-16-2018, 07:33 AM
Who was it, famous bike toss during TdF, ITT and he wanted his front der and small ring off(?)...David Millar?
David Millar had another great bike throw after getting mechanical-ed out of a possible giro stage 5 win in '08. Snapped chain at 1K to go. Dura ace. Nobody went crying about garbage Shimano stuff after that happened. Mechanicals at bad times happen. It sucks but it happens.
Further, I'd put $20 on the rider dissatisfaction being that they don't like 1X for road applications (which is reasonable IMO, but is a different issue than the "lab rat" with unproven tech) not that it doesn't function how it should. 1X has been pretty well sussed out in applications far more likely to cause a function problem than road.
oldpotatoe
06-16-2018, 07:38 AM
David Millar had another great bike throw after getting mechanical-ed out of a possible giro stage 5 win in '08. Snapped chain at 1K to go. Dura ace. Nobody went crying about garbage Shimano stuff after that happened. Mechanicals at bad times happen. It sucks but it happens.
Further, I'd put $20 on the rider dissatisfaction being that they don't like 1X for road applications (which I think is reasonable IMO, but is a different issue than the "lab rat" with unproven tech) not that it doesn't function how it should. 1X has been pretty well sussed out in applications far more likely to cause a function problem than road.
There was a LOT of 'shimano is garbage' comments after that episode. With Riis and how he couldn't get into his pedal(LOOK) also..
NOT the impression I got from this.
Cyclingnews understands the bikes have been unpopular amongst the Aqua Blue Sport riders since their implementation,
Just want to say what a privilege it was to be behind @MarkChristian8 today @tds so so strong., only to be dropped by mechanical no 4698 this season... This lab rat thing is now costing results
Mechanical 'number' 4698
And I don't really understand how a frameset 'design' would contribute to all sorts of mechanicals with this 1by system(or any system for that matter)..assuming all had the same clutch rear ders and narrow-wide chainrings...what about a frameset design would contribute to mechanicals?
charliedid
06-16-2018, 07:47 AM
Really? Not one person is pointing the finger at the rider?
Sorry but dropped chains on SRAM 1x is not a widely know problem and most of it is run on ATB and CX bikes.
Gimme a break.
batman1425
06-16-2018, 08:14 AM
And I don't really understand how a frameset 'design' would contribute to all sorts of mechanicals with this 1by system(or any system for that matter)..assuming all had the same clutch rear ders and narrow-wide chainrings...what about a frameset design would contribute to mechanicals?
Chainstay length. The 2018 Sram tech docs say 395mm minimum for 1X setups. The Strada is listed at 405 but 3T may have tweaked the rear end alignment or relative BB location because it is a 1x only setup which might change that range for this particular frame. Sram say in the tech docs that drops from the big ring under load are a risk if chainstay length is not optimal. What is optimal could be debatable in this case depending on the specific geometry of the Strada, ring size, etc.
The 2017 tech docs made a distinction about 130 vs. 135/142 hub spacing for 2x11 setups where anything with 135mm spacing needed at minimum 405mm for a 50T big ring, 410mm for a 52, and 430mm for a 53. No mention of a different standard for 1X in those docs that I can find though the 1x ring is in a different location that either the big or little ring on a 2x, so unclear of these numbers would be directly transferrable to a 1x application.
Most of the bikes that 1X functions smoothly on are cross and gravel bikes which typically have much longer chainstays than the Strada. Clutch RD and narrow wide rings all help, but if this setup is at the limit of chain angle tolerance, quite reasonable that world tour watts could flex/stress things enough to cause problems.
Mzilliox
06-16-2018, 08:22 AM
Im not surprised at all a pro would be upset with the lack of gears. what i am surprised about are the dropped chain comments. I run the sram clutched RD and narrow wide chainring and cannot imagine dropping a chain. I dropped chains off my 2x gravel bike 3 times on this one washboard road descent. That was one of my reasons to go to 1x for the new gravel bike. Same road on the 1x clutched RD and not even a hint of the chain dropping.
now i know these pros pedals hard and shift hard, but sheesh, if i cant throw a chain on the worst section of gravel road that threw 2x chains off for appetizers, then how?
now the gearing jumps, thats something i could see a pro getting upset about. I see them as a positive for the riding i do, but there have been times when i can't find the gear i want. Dedicated road riding would not be on my list of best uses.
colker
06-16-2018, 08:29 AM
Chainstay length. The 2018 Sram tech docs say 395mm minimum for 1X setups. The Strada is listed at 405 but 3T may have tweaked the rear end alignment or relative BB location because it is a 1x only setup which might change that range for this particular frame. Sram say in the tech docs that drops from the big ring under load are a risk if chainstay length is not optimal. What is optimal could be debatable in this case depending on the specific geometry of the Strada, ring size, etc.
The 2017 tech docs made a distinction about 130 vs. 135/142 hub spacing for 2x11 setups where anything with 135mm spacing needed at minimum 405mm for a 50T big ring, 410mm for a 52, and 430mm for a 53. No mention of a different standard for 1X in those docs that I can find though the 1x ring is in a different location that either the big or little ring on a 2x, so unclear of these numbers would be directly transferrable to a 1x application.
Most of the bikes that 1X functions smoothly on are cross and gravel bikes which typically have much longer chainstays than the Strada. Clutch RD and narrow wide rings all help, but if this setup is at the limit of chain angle tolerance, quite reasonable that world tour watts could flex/stress things enough to cause problems.
There is zero trouble w/a front derrailleur. Perfect chainline w/ 2x. Perfect tight gearing.
1x on road racing bikes is bad.
The end.
batman1425
06-16-2018, 08:35 AM
There is zero trouble w/a front derrailleur. Perfect chainline w/ 2x. Perfect tight gearing.
1x on road racing bikes is bad.
The end.
In general 2X will have better chainlines assuming cross chaining is avoided. 1X setups have to be put somewhere in the middle where the upper and lower cassette extremes will be sub optimal, hence why chainstay length matters in this context. If its too short, that chainline is going to get very acute at the ends of the cassette - which frequently are where a rider is going to be putting out the biggest watts - and raises the risk of dropped chains.
Gravel and cross bikes have much longer stays. Makes this less of a issue. Road bike with tight rear end geometry = chain angle problems. As was mentioned earlier in this thread - I bet if you put these groups on a different frame, they work great and this is a frame compatibility problem.
Jaybee
06-16-2018, 08:35 AM
Many racers have had issues w chain drops using front derailleurs. Andy Schleck v. Contador 2010 comes to mind.
I wonder if they are using the 3T cassette (http://https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/3t-cassette-50278/) instead of the SRAM version.
Jaybee
06-16-2018, 08:38 AM
In general 2X will have better chainlines assuming cross chaining is avoided. 1X setups have to be put somewhere in the middle where the upper and lower cassette extremes will be sub optimal, hence why chainstay length matters in this context. If its too short, that chainline is going to get very acute at the ends of the cassette - which frequently are where a rider is going to be putting out the biggest watts - and raises the risk of dropped chains.
Gravel and cross bikes have much longer stays. Makes this less of a issue. Road bike with tight rear end geometry = chain angle problems. As was mentioned earlier in this thread - I bet if you put these groups on a different frame, they work great and this is a frame compatibility problem.
I agree. Which is a little ironic, since by using a 1x only frame, they essentially locked themselves into SRAM.
colker
06-16-2018, 08:45 AM
In general 2X will have better chainlines assuming cross chaining is avoided. 1X setups have to be put somewhere in the middle where the upper and lower cassette extremes will be sub optimal, hence why chainstay length matters in this context. If its too short, that chainline is going to get very acute at the ends of the cassette - which frequently are where a rider is going to be putting out the biggest watts - and raises the risk of dropped chains.
Gravel and cross bikes have much longer stays. Makes this less of a issue. Road bike with tight rear end geometry = chain angle problems. As was mentioned earlier in this thread - I bet if you put these groups on a different frame, they work great and this is a frame compatibility problem.
Chainstays on racing road bikes are usually 407mm. Look for something else to blame.
oldpotatoe
06-16-2018, 08:49 AM
Chainstay length. The 2018 Sram tech docs say 395mm minimum for 1X setups. The Strada is listed at 405 but 3T may have tweaked the rear end alignment or relative BB location because it is a 1x only setup which might change that range for this particular frame. Sram say in the tech docs that drops from the big ring under load are a risk if chainstay length is not optimal. What is optimal could be debatable in this case depending on the specific geometry of the Strada, ring size, etc.
The 2017 tech docs made a distinction about 130 vs. 135/142 hub spacing for 2x11 setups where anything with 135mm spacing needed at minimum 405mm for a 50T big ring, 410mm for a 52, and 430mm for a 53. No mention of a different standard for 1X in those docs that I can find though the 1x ring is in a different location that either the big or little ring on a 2x, so unclear of these numbers would be directly transferrable to a 1x application.
Most of the bikes that 1X functions smoothly on are cross and gravel bikes which typically have much longer chainstays than the Strada. Clutch RD and narrow wide rings all help, but if this setup is at the limit of chain angle tolerance, quite reasonable that world tour watts could flex/stress things enough to cause problems.
You mentioned 405mm..NOT trying to argue and the choice of frameset 'may' have an effect on the numerous mechanical problems this team seems to be having..BUT it 'seems' clear to me it's the function of the group, not the fact that it happens to be 1by.
Further, I'd put $20 on the rider dissatisfaction being that they don't like 1X for road applications (which I think is reasonable IMO, but is a different issue than the "lab rat" with unproven tech) not that it doesn't function how it should.
Gotta believe, as the first 1by road setup on the international stage, sram was deeply involved in it's installation and testing...but.....They have been on these rigs for 5months+.
unterhausen
06-16-2018, 09:00 AM
In reality, I think a sizable portion of the amateur road riding population would be functionally happy with a 1X road setup. I'd say 95-97% of my road riding could be satisfied with a 48T ring and an 11-36 cassette. I would say this is true for the vast majority of riders. I'm riding road on a 46-11 high gear. My gravel bike has a 42-11 high gear, and that's really enough for my riding. 42-11 is higher than the classic 52-14 that was the high gear that most of us had available when I started riding.
I was looking at going 1x for my randonneuring climbing bike, but that was before the advent of ridiculously big cassettes and I didn't think I could get a low enough gear in combo with a high enough gear. Now I could probably get it to work. Not sure I really want to do it though, 2x is fine for me. OTOH, I was recently about 100 miles into a cold, rainy ride and had to use my whole arm to shift my fd because my fingers were frozen. My mind immediately went to 1x experiments.
charliedid
06-16-2018, 09:01 AM
There is zero trouble w/a front derrailleur. Perfect chainline w/ 2x. Perfect tight gearing.
1x on road racing bikes is bad.
The end.
Maybe,
Just curious how many miles you have an a 1X system?
colker
06-16-2018, 09:07 AM
Maybe,
Just curious how many miles you have an a 1X system?
I will never have any miles on 1x system on racing road bikes.
I am sorry for the team and it´s riders who were forced to ride under horrible technical conditions just so a couple companies could sell a stupid idea on the market.
batman1425
06-16-2018, 09:28 AM
Chainstays on racing road bikes are usually 407mm. Look for something else to blame.
And 1X systems were originally optimized for bikes with 420mm+ chainstays, with 2x optimized for the approx 405mm road standard. They may work on a 405mm bike but far from what it was optimized for.
charliedid
06-16-2018, 09:29 AM
I will never have any miles on 1x system on racing road bikes.
I am sorry for the team and it´s riders who were forced to ride under horrible technical conditions just so a couple companies could sell a stupid idea on the market.
That's fine and for the record I don't know that 1x on road racing bikes it the best thing but it's kind of lake saying you hate apples but never tried one. :)
batman1425
06-16-2018, 09:34 AM
You mentioned 405mm..NOT trying to argue and the choice of frameset 'may' have an effect on the numerous mechanical problems this team seems to be having..BUT it 'seems' clear to me it's the function of the group, not the fact that it happens to be 1by.
My point is that this 1x group was designed to work in a specific frame geometry range with specific contraints which this frame may be right on the limit of. It's most common application is further within those constraints. Shimano and campy have functional limits to what they can reliably be bolted to as well. This particular frame may be pushing this stuff right to the edge of it's tolerance range. So yes, I agree it is not "functioning" as it should but that may be no fault of the group set but rather the fact that is it on a frame that is incompatible.
If the failures they refer to are parts breaking, coming lose, etc. thats a different story. But I read these reports differently. It's also important to cut through the hyperbole in the reports. He's was frustrated for sure pointing to this not being an isolated incident. But we don't know what those other problems were or how many there really are.
rain dogs
06-16-2018, 09:39 AM
So, 3T makes a fairly standard geometry road bike and partners with Sram who are happily pushing 1x for road (hence this Aqua Blue Bike Project) and although SRAM designs the system and optimizes it for certain chainstay lengths it is 3T's fault for making a standard geo road bike? Ha! Was 3T supposed to make a mountain bike for the TdF? :confused:
Color me confused.
If Sram can't make a 1x that works reliably on a road bike, don't push your PR and marketing for road use.... No one's fault but their own. If Sram felt like the bike wouldn't have been compatible, it is wholly their responsibility to say their system isn't recommended for that use. They obviously haven't done that.
BTW... they Aqua Blue regularly use Sram cassettes. Look at nearly every bike review of their bikes, the vast majority have Sram cassettes. This is a Sram cassette is it not?
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Aqua-Blue-3T-Strada-1x-road-bike-for-pro-racing-5.jpg
And this is a picture of Mark Christian #182 from the TDS where this controversy started. He's using and all Sram drivetrain - cassette, chain, chainrings and cranks
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dfj87eKX4AAapoA.jpg:large
91Bear
06-16-2018, 10:30 AM
From Cyclingnews.com:
"While the 3T Strada, designed by Cervelo founder and acclaimed bicycle design engineer Gerard Vroomen, has drawn plaudits for its future-thinking design, there have also been questions on the drawbacks of larger gear jumps at the highest level of racing in the sport due to the single chainring. However Vroomen and 3T have developed a special 9-32 tooth cassette that helps reduce the gear ratio jumps."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aqua-blue-sport-unveil-3t-strada-for-2018/
unterhausen
06-16-2018, 11:48 AM
BTW... they Aqua Blue regularly use Sram cassettes. Look at nearly every bike review of their bikes, the vast majority have Sram cassettes. This is a Sram cassette is it not?
Looks like they might have mixed cassettes, which may or may not work depending on the ramps. But is that really a 407 chain stay length?
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Aqua-Blue-3T-Strada-1x-road-bike-for-pro-racing-5.jpg
unterhausen
06-16-2018, 11:49 AM
Okay, looking at it again, they have seat tube way behind the bb for aero, it probably is a 407 chainstay.
vqdriver
06-16-2018, 12:22 PM
So just how much say does a team actually have in deciding what to ride?
Y'all making it seem like they HAVE to do what the sponsor says. But i find it hard to believe the team didnt agree to ride 1x road disc to be the poster child for sram.
If the he had taken the stage, i doubt they would have declined any media coverage
vqdriver
06-16-2018, 12:26 PM
And fwiw, I hate whenever athletes or teams get into spats with their sponsors. Before the fact they're courting each other and then afterward it always gets ugly and nasty. I don't care if it's cycling or basketball or tennis or football. There hasn't been an instance of this where you say at the end "well that was a classy way to handle it"
batman1425
06-16-2018, 12:32 PM
So just how much say does a team actually have in deciding what to ride?
Y'all making it seem like they HAVE to do what the sponsor says. But i find it hard to believe the team didnt agree to ride 1x road disc to be the poster child for sram.
If the he had taken the stage, i doubt they would have declined any media coverage
I have to agree with this too. This case might be different though as the title sponsor is in cycling retail. The big money provider my have requirements for certain lower tier sponsors.
simonov
06-16-2018, 12:51 PM
Okay, looking at it again, they have seat tube way behind the bb for aero, it probably is a 407 chainstay.
It's not. According to their own website, they're 405 chainstays with a 71 bb drop. Depending on the size of the crank that could be below SRAM's specification or, at best, at the limits of what that group was designed for. Especially when they're not using SRAM cassettes some or much of the time.
As for all the arguments that SRAM is pushing 1x, other than offering a 1x alternative, for which there's a clear market, how are they pushing it? They still offer FDs for all their road groups.
vqdriver
06-16-2018, 01:09 PM
I have to agree with this too. This case might be different though as the title sponsor is in cycling retail. The big money provider my have requirements for certain lower tier sponsors.
Yeah, dunno about that, i simply dont know the intricacies of these deals where the actual equipment can make or break a season. But it seems they were cashing checks until something goes sideways on a big stage. If indeed they were having so many technical issues, this was a known problem that should have been ironed it out ages ago.
Ill add that if dropped chains are really an issue for them when cx, downhill, enduro, etc riders are doing just fine on 1x then it seems its more of a compatibility issue than a hardware failing.
Regardless, deal with it internally or ride better to have more sway with your sponsors. What you dont do is publicly embarrass the people who are enabling your season in the first place. That is just unprofessional
vqdriver
06-16-2018, 01:12 PM
On a somewhat unrelated note, it seems they are also using thru axles. I wonder how those wheel changes went. Neutral support carry those wheels or team cars only? Rotor sizes would also have to match up...
sitzmark
06-16-2018, 01:27 PM
Regardless, deal with it internally or ride better to have more sway with your sponsors. What you dont do is publicly embarrass the people who are enabling your season in the first place. That is just unprofessional
+++++
unterhausen
06-16-2018, 01:31 PM
good luck getting an equipment sponsor going forward.
oldpotatoe
06-16-2018, 02:19 PM
good luck getting an equipment sponsor going forward.
I’ll be willing to bet that $20 if they asked shimano, even now, they’d get groups. Probably could find a frame sponsor too. These guys love to snatch a team from one another.
ptourkin
06-16-2018, 05:00 PM
Really? Not one person is pointing the finger at the rider?
Sorry but dropped chains on SRAM 1x is not a widely know problem and most of it is run on ATB and CX bikes.
Gimme a break.
As in every other thread about this subject, the people criticizing 1X for road and SRAM 1X in general are people who have never ridden it and/or have said that they would never even consider riding it. It has been just as flawless as DA 9070 on the bikes I have it on. I enjoy it on dirt and road.
OTOH, I don't think any of us have tried the proprietary 3T cassette that it's being used with.
Jaybee
06-16-2018, 05:08 PM
As in every other thread about this subject, the people criticizing 1X for road and SRAM 1X in general are people who have never ridden it and/or have said that they would never even consider riding it. It has been just as flawless as DA 9070 on the bikes I have it on. I enjoy it on dirt and road.
OTOH, I don't think any of us have tried the proprietary 3T cassette that it's being used with.
I can't imagine there is a lot of purchase for the chain in a 46-9 combo at the edge of workable chainline. The shorter the chainstay, the worse this gets.
nickl
06-16-2018, 07:48 PM
How is SRAM pushing 1x setups? 3T designed the bike that this team is using to be 1X for marginal and debatable aero gains and they're using a group designed for cyclocross for top level road racing. SRAM's current generation mechanical FDs are as good, and sometimes better, than those from the other companies. If SRAM was all over the decisions about what this team is using, they'd be on 2x eTap setups, since that's their top of the line race group.
The SRAM marketing gurus have been pushing road 1x for years, going back to the days when their FD was the bain of their sponsored riders. Here is one of their web ads.
https://www.sram.com/stories/13-things-we-wish-you-knew-about-1x-road
In this case, 13 was prolifically unlucky.
charliedid
06-16-2018, 09:04 PM
Somebody give me the Cliffs Notes version of why chainstay length matters so much in this discussion.
Thanks
bikinchris
06-16-2018, 09:18 PM
Somebody give me the Cliffs Notes version of why chainstay length matters so much in this discussion.
Thanks
Shorter chainstays make chain alignment problems much worse. The angle of the chain gets much more exaggerated with only small changes in length.
So if a chain is more likely to drop off a cog or chainring, it will be much worse.
charliedid
06-16-2018, 10:26 PM
Shorter chainstays make chain alignment problems much worse. The angle of the chain gets much more exaggerated with only small changes in length.
So if a chain is more likely to drop off a cog or chainring, it will be much worse.
Of course, got it.
Thanks
beeatnik
06-17-2018, 01:27 AM
As in every other thread about this subject, the people criticizing 1X for road and SRAM 1X in general are people who have never ridden it and/or have said that they would never even consider riding it. It has been just as flawless as DA 9070 on the bikes I have it on. I enjoy it on dirt and road.
OTOH, I don't think any of us have tried the proprietary 3T cassette that it's being used with.
yabut, Paul, you put about 300 miles yearly on your sramz. the tragedy of owning 10 other bikes.
rain dogs
06-17-2018, 01:58 AM
As in every other thread about this subject, the people criticizing 1X for road and SRAM 1X in general are people who have never ridden it and/or have said that they would never even consider riding it. It has been just as flawless as DA 9070 on the bikes I have it on. I enjoy it on dirt and road.
OTOH, I don't think any of us have tried the proprietary 3T cassette that it's being used with.
The 'people' in this thread are pros and a DS/owner criticizing 1x for road and by extent SRAM 1x and the 3T strada - the rest of us are chatting about that pro criticism, our opinions and experience. And those 16 total pros have likely accumulated many more miles on said SRAM 1x system than any of us will in a lifetime... to date probably some 200-300k km already. Even if you ride as much as a pro in a year, which cyclists most don't, it'll take you 16 years to do what these 16 do this year. That's why pro sponsorship is influential with all it's good and bad.
In regards to the black 3T cassette we have no idea how much they use that vs SRAM and if is causes more/less problems, but we know Mark Christian was using a SRAM cassette when he had THIS problem the thread is about.
It's absurd that I would need to build my own database of long term reliability on each and every product when product testing and pro sponsorship exists. I'm going to do 300,000km on each of the major groupsets and their options? In what lifetime? Pro results will be much more robust than any I could produce. So, especially considering the sponsor pressure that exists in cycling, if pros publicly slam a product, it speaks loudly.
m4rk540
06-17-2018, 02:16 AM
Why is it so difficult for some to accept that an American company can regularly design and produce garbage? Who was defending AMC in the 80's or Chrysler in the 90's? Give me a Honda 24/7. I mean Shimano. Ya.
simonov
06-17-2018, 04:38 AM
Why is it so difficult for some to accept that an American company can regularly design and produce garbage? Who was defending AMC in the 80's or Chrysler in the 90's? Give me a Honda 24/7. I mean Shimano. Ya.
Because they don't produce garbage. And Shimano has plenty of product issues of their own. There's so much disdain and hyperbole when in comes to SRAM and most of it is unfounded or based on groups that they no longer make. I personally think 1x is a silly choice for road bikes and downright stupid for pro-level racing. I also think that 3T Strada has stupid geometry that doesn't make sense from a fit standpoint or a parts compatibility standpoint. But the issue here is with a team that said yes to a bike sponsor that locked them into a poor gear selection with no alternative. I feel bad for the racers. To put in as much training and work as these guys do only to have to ride something that puts them at a disadvantage must be heartbreaking. Any other bike and they could toss on some Yaw FDs and a double chainring crank and put this issue to bed.
oldpotatoe
06-17-2018, 08:44 AM
Because they don't produce garbage. And Shimano has plenty of product issues of their own. There's so much disdain and hyperbole when in comes to SRAM and most of it is unfounded or based on groups that they no longer make. I personally think 1x is a silly choice for road bikes and downright stupid for pro-level racing. I also think that 3T Strada has stupid geometry that doesn't make sense from a fit standpoint or a parts compatibility standpoint. But the issue here is with a team that said yes to a bike sponsor that locked them into a poor gear selection with no alternative. I feel bad for the racers. To put in as much training and work as these guys do only to have to ride something that puts them at a disadvantage must be heartbreaking. Any other bike and they could toss on some Yaw FDs and a double chainring crank and put this issue to bed.
Sums it up..too bad we don't really know anymore than a guy chucked his chain, it hurt his results, the team and management aren't happy with the equipment and it's gonna be a long year for them..I'm still kinda mystified, after having the frames and groups for more than 5 months, these 'issues' haven't been sorted somehow by 3T and/or sram. Ya gotta believe that sram/3T has a team of mechs and truck full of spares to prevent the team from slamming their stuff. Yet..:eek:
simonov
06-17-2018, 09:16 AM
Sums it up..too bad we don't really know anymore than a guy chucked his chain, it hurt his results, the team and management aren't happy with the equipment and it's gonna be a long year for them..I'm still kinda mystified, after having the frames and groups for more than 5 months, these 'issues' haven't been sorted somehow by 3T and/or sram. Ya gotta believe that sram/3T has a team of mechs and truck full of spares to prevent the team from slamming their stuff. Yet..:eek:
My guess is that they can't fix the issue without using a different frame, which isn't an option based on what 3T offers.
oldpotatoe
06-17-2018, 09:28 AM
My guess is that they can't fix the issue without using a different frame, which isn't an option based on what 3T offers.
Perhaps but that speaks to those who 'may' want this group for their road rig. I know all groups have certain frameset spec requirements....some gent in someplace USA wants a 1by group..may not want to risk it.
Burnette
06-17-2018, 09:29 AM
As much as this thread comes off as an indictment of the 1X drivetrain and SRAM it's self if you read the article it pints the most probable cause:
"Dropping the chain can happen on a traditional drivetrain with a front derailleur, and Christian's mechanical could be down to a number of factors - low clutch tension, a slightly too-long chain, the lack of a chain guide and a number of other reasons could all be to fault.However, a rattling from the rear derailleur at the finish line suggests low clutch tension, or a failed clutch system, could have been the cause of the dropped chain and the reason Christian lost time"
As far as the lab rat comment, well yeah, racing is where component and frame makers learn.
Andy Schleck's dropped chain in the TDF stands out because, well, it was the tour and Contador profited form it but it happens with all brands in all tours. What makes this different is that the riders are on social media complaining about it.
Racing is a business so going forward the rides should bail if so inclined and other riders or another team will be contracted and life goes on.
ptourkin
06-17-2018, 09:49 AM
yabut, Paul, you put about 300 miles yearly on your sramz. the tragedy of owning 10 other bikes.
People with 11 bikes are so weird.
colker
06-17-2018, 10:02 AM
Because they don't produce garbage. And Shimano has plenty of product issues of their own. There's so much disdain and hyperbole when in comes to SRAM and most of it is unfounded or based on groups that they no longer make. I personally think 1x is a silly choice for road bikes and downright stupid for pro-level racing. I also think that 3T Strada has stupid geometry that doesn't make sense from a fit standpoint or a parts compatibility standpoint. But the issue here is with a team that said yes to a bike sponsor that locked them into a poor gear selection with no alternative. I feel bad for the racers. To put in as much training and work as these guys do only to have to ride something that puts them at a disadvantage must be heartbreaking. Any other bike and they could toss on some Yaw FDs and a double chainring crank and put this issue to bed.
That´s it. Crystal clear.
unterhausen
06-17-2018, 01:21 PM
it would be funny if the rear derailleur was left with the clutch release pin engaged. Saw a Blue Angels show where they apparently left a pin in the landing gear, so that sort of thing happens.
batman1425
06-17-2018, 01:21 PM
My guess is that they can't fix the issue without using a different frame, which isn't an option based on what 3T offers.
Interesting to consider that if 3T or Sram come out saying that there is a compatibility problem of some kind, that essentially halts sales of the Strada. 3T painted themselves into a corner by making a bike that will essentially only work with one group which had not been extensively tested in this specific configuration. They certainly have skin in that game and Aqua Blue works with 3T in the retail space. The prime sponsors have something lose (beyond poor results and low ROI from lack of team success) if something got overlooked in the frame design phase and might be why there wasn't an immediate pivot to a different frame when problems came up. A case of - "figure it out because a change is going to hurt all of the sponsors".
OldPotato brought up a good point that they had 5mo of development time with the team to figure this out. The comments about there being lots of problems suggest there are known (to the team) problems but hey can't be fixed with out major component or frame changes. 3T absolutely doesn't want to have to change the frame to sort this out. Makes all of the current stock out there unsellable. Heck, even a run of one off parts from Sram that bandaids things well enough for the team to make due still renders the current Strada's unsellable unless Sram brings all that to market ASAP. Whatever the issue, I suspect 3T is gonna get a heck of a wallet punch from this.
They are still using Ridley TT bikes. A potential work around would be to bring in Helium's for a traditional and functional 2X "climbing" option and continue to use the Strada for 1x appropriate days - flat? Would give the team some different options and help everybody save face, but the window to do that gracefully has shut.
As was said before - the riders and staff are the biggest losers. I feel bad for those folks who work so hard just to have it all go up in smoke because of sponsor BS.
oldpotatoe
06-17-2018, 01:53 PM
it would be funny if the rear derailleur was left with the clutch release pin engaged. Saw a Blue Angels show where they apparently left a pin in the landing gear, so that sort of thing happens.
But that didn’t mean the landing gear failed and the pilot and CO didn’t then slam McDonnell-Douglas....:)
El Chaba
06-17-2018, 02:40 PM
The problems with this 1x group and the 3TTT bike won't be worked out in 5 months or 6 or 5 years or an eternity. The reason is that R&D is not the goal here. The goal is in attempt to buy some street cred for an ill-conceived idea and then sell the crap as the latest and greatest. It has backfired miserably and I can't see a downside in the result....other than for the poor devils over at Aqua Blue team....
sitzmark
06-17-2018, 05:35 PM
As was said before - the riders and staff are the biggest losers. I feel bad for those folks who work so hard just to have it all go up in smoke because of sponsor BS.
Don't see what has "gone up in smoke". Compared 2017 season jan-may and 2018 season jan-may and there's not a lot of difference in results. Pretty average team. Many of the same events both years, but not all the same.
Don't have a clue what the other 4697 issues are. Maybe they should post them so we have all the facts and can better understand if there is a common problem. On the surface it seems there's a mismatch between team and sponsor(s). To me it seems like the team isn't strong enough mentally or physically to overcome the challenge of taking on something completely new. The team leadership certainly understood they were signing up for a one trick pony. The riders most likely had little say, but from industry interviews beginning with announcement day forward it was clear they weren't too enthused. If Delaney is so sure the equipment is holding them back, he should be a leader and pony up (/raise) the cash to move them onto new gear and finish out the season as the champions they are meant to be.
oldpotatoe
06-18-2018, 07:01 AM
Don't see what has "gone up in smoke". Compared 2017 season jan-may and 2018 season jan-may and there's not a lot of difference in results. Pretty average team. Many of the same events both years, but not all the same.
Don't have a clue what the other 4697 issues are. Maybe they should post them so we have all the facts and can better understand if there is a common problem. On the surface it seems there's a mismatch between team and sponsor(s). To me it seems like the team isn't strong enough mentally or physically to overcome the challenge of taking on something completely new. The team leadership certainly understood they were signing up for a one trick pony. The riders most likely had little say, but from industry interviews beginning with announcement day forward it was clear they weren't too enthused. If Delaney is so sure the equipment is holding them back, he should be a leader and pony up (/raise) the cash to move them onto new gear and finish out the season as the champions they are meant to be.
Sounds like the stuff isn't working, breaking, too many mechanicals..doubt any stronger riders, physically or mentally would make those rear ders break less..
sitzmark
06-18-2018, 07:08 AM
Sounds like the stuff isn't working, breaking, too many mechanicals..doubt any stronger riders, physically or mentally would make those rear ders break less..
We don't know if it's RD's breaking or if it was just one. The RD's seem to work fine in all other applications.
When you sign up to partner on a new concept, you understand the complexities and challenges involved and work together through the good and bad. i've done it many times with customers in medical diagnostics working through new product validations before full scale release. Either both parties have the mental persistence and understanding or they don't. In this case they don't. Time to move on.
All this stuff in terms of blaming the mechanic for not setting a clutch release pin or errors cause he has to constantly swap chains to swap gearing and such do not absolve SRAM.
If the system requires more attention for setup due to the limitations it imposes on the bike that means more chances for the mechanic(s) and/or riders to make a mistake.
The comments about "don't need that big of a chainring" or "it's been OK for me" so 1X makes sense are nonsensical unless the poster is STRONG. I am no pro racer and the idea of getting by with a big ring less than 50 teeth for racing is a hilarious joke IMO. And at the wattages those guys ride having 10-20rpm jumps between gears sounds super annoying too. Maybe you get used to it but why should you have to when you haven't since 5-speed?
Short chainstays + pro rider + possible mechanical issues w/drivetain = All kinds of problems cropping up that regular riders won't uncover. On top of it all those mechanics might be amazing but they are so busy they have a lot more chances to make a mistake.
I am not of the opinion that MTB/cross are more demanding on the drivetain. Riders have more spacing in MTB & Cross. If the bike misbehaves in road circumstances & you are tightly spaced with other riders things go bad much more quickly than MTB & Cross where there are large buffers in terms of space.
Cassette concerns are amusing too since the best way to improve SRAM rear shifting is to get rid of the SRAM cassette. Same thing with the front chaingrings IME. ;). They probably have to swap stuff out to other brands anyway just to get the gearing they need since the system isn't designed for their application anyway.
ptourkin
06-18-2018, 09:36 AM
I am no pro racer and the idea of getting by with a big ring less than 50 teeth for racing is a hilarious joke IMO.
42-9 is a bigger gear than 50-11. Just a minor quibble there. I don't doubt that the 9 can be causing some problems with the chain but gear inches wise, that analysis is off.
What's the wear on a 9? More wear = more maintenance = more chances for the mechanic to make a mistake when they've got 20 guys riding 20k km/yr or something in all conditions.
That's just the ridiculousness of it though, even the 50/34 compact is stupid low 99% of the time if you're 140-160lbs and you have a 400w FTP.
The 50 is stupid for me 99% of the time on my fast road bike (hence why I've never run one for an extended period.) I would only like it on days where I happened to climb one of the handful of multi-mile climbs in the northeastern US that average > 10% for miles on end. (Most of those are toll roads that you can only ride during hill climbs.)
You only see them use the 34/50 for the most epic of mountain climbs on the longest days in the longest tours, and even then it's only the guys who like to spin like crazy.
1X is stupid for these guys even if it has plenty of low and high range if it requires more swapping out of parts for different days. My guess is they will swap out more often than a recreational rider since they won't need the range on the flatter days and riding with the wide range cassette will be really annoying on those days since they'll not use 3-4 of the cogs and then still be stuck with huge jumps between the cogs.
chiasticon
06-19-2018, 08:27 AM
failures during R&D happen. and R&D in bike racing happens. the only issue I see here is the team slagging the sponsors; that's weak and un-pro to me. you're paid to do a job. some of that pay comes from the sponsors. be nice to 'em. Aqua Sport aren't the highest profile team. so yeah, they get to be more of lab rats than other teams do. when you've barely got enough money to eat, don't sh*t in your own Cheerios.
someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)
nickl
06-19-2018, 09:06 AM
failures during R&D happen. and R&D in bike racing happens. the only issue I see here is the team slagging the sponsors; that's weak and un-pro to me. you're paid to do a job. some of that pay comes from the sponsors. be nice to 'em. Aqua Sport aren't the highest profile team. so yeah, they get to be more of lab rats than other teams do. when you've barely got enough money to eat, don't sh*t in your own Cheerios.
someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)
In this case, I am pleased to hear about equipment shortcomings from the pro riders, cycling journalists and other insiders. Keeps us regular folks from investing in problematic configurations. This is similar to the situation with Campy in the late 80s and early 90s when they were attempting to keep up with Shimano's then-new SIS systems.
NHAero
06-19-2018, 09:38 AM
Two cents here from an old slow rider:
I have SRAM 1x11 on my FS29er and after over 2-1/2 years of regular riding I've dropped a chain twice. No chain keeper, but NW chainring and clutch derailleur. Shifting is very reliable. I just replaced the worn aluminum 42T large cog with an aftermarket 44T cog and the shifting in and out of that cog is slightly less smooth than with the stock cog.
I converted my CAAD10 for an experiment to 1x11, in this case Shimano 6800 shifters, Ultegra R8000 rear derailleur, and Ultegra 11-34 cassette. 40T NW chainring, I think it's a Wolftooth. It shifts fine, but not as nicely as the SRAM on the MTB, and I've been attributing that to considerably shorter chainstays on the road bike. And I could be completely wrong...
someone posted the photo of Wout dropping a chain at CX world championships 2015. he didn't go after Sram after that; clearly stated the issue was his fault and his other crashes kept him out of the win anyway. this after the Belgian media assaulted him and his team for changing bikes and going to 1X only a week before the world championships. but that's the pro thing to do; stand by your sponsor. (although last year he semi-publicly griped about how terrible the Felt bikes they were on were; so he's no angel either...)
No the Belgian media has it right, there's nothing PRO about changing to a drastically new setup 1 week before the world championships.
If there was a weird thing with his combo they wouldn't have necessarily had a chance to figure it out in a week, and if there was some change in how he needed to ride/shift he wouldn't have had time to necessarily get that to the point where it was automatic.
A lot of this stuff is not really about SRAM quality.. it's about trying too may new things/combinations at the same time when your paycheck depends on the equipment just "disappearing".
Joxster
06-19-2018, 02:25 PM
42-9 is a bigger gear than 50-11. Just a minor quibble there. I don't doubt that the 9 can be causing some problems with the chain but gear inches wise, that analysis is off.
But when the drag on a smaller sprocket is a waste of watts (marginal gains and all that) and other teams are going bigger rings with bigger sprockets, there must be questions to ask. I did suspect that when the problems started they would have thrown the mechanic under the bus.
chiasticon
06-19-2018, 02:40 PM
No the Belgian media has it right, there's nothing PRO about changing to a drastically new setup 1 week before the world championships.
If there was a weird thing with his combo they wouldn't have necessarily had a chance to figure it out in a week, and if there was some change in how he needed to ride/shift he wouldn't have had time to necessarily get that to the point where it was automatic.
A lot of this stuff is not really about SRAM quality.. it's about trying too may new things/combinations at the same time when your paycheck depends on the equipment just "disappearing".exactly my point. he defended the sponsor (actually sponsors; again, he changed frames too), because him and his team made the change, even though it wasn't the best time to do it. and while that decision wasn't exactly pro, defending the sponsors and taking the blame yourself is.
that doesn't 100% relate to Aqua Sport of course, given they're several months into racing their setups and still having issues. but the point is you gain little as a team or a professional by sh*tting all over your sponsors.
ptourkin
06-19-2018, 03:14 PM
But when the drag on a smaller sprocket is a waste of watts (marginal gains and all that) and other teams are going bigger rings with bigger sprockets, there must be questions to ask. I did suspect that when the problems started they would have thrown the mechanic under the bus.
That was just an example. I don't know what chainring they are running - I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I just quoted 42 as that as how a lot of 1X are being sold. I suspect they are going bigger.
Mark McM
06-19-2018, 03:24 PM
That was just an example. I don't know what chainring they are running - I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I just quoted 42 as that as how a lot of 1X are being sold. I suspect they are going bigger.
Friction Facts did some testing on drive losses between typical large and small chainrings (53 & 39) different rear sprocket sizes for their study on the best gear selection for efficiency. Bike Radar had an article on their data and findings (https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/friction-facts-free-speed-from-proper-shifting-44016/). The published data suggests that the 1x system, with its smaller chainring and larger cross-chaining angles, may be losing up to 2 - 3 Watts in some gear combinations (the worst would be the 42x9). The losses will be smaller in other gear combinations, but even still, the extra losses will probably not be compensated for by the lower weight of a 1x system, except maybe up the steepest climbs (but if bikes are already at the minimum weight allowed by the rules, they may not be able to harvest any gains from weight savings). There may be some aero gains with a 1x system, but I don't think this has ever been quantified.
oldpotatoe
06-20-2018, 09:09 AM
Friction Facts did some testing on drive losses between typical large and small chainrings (53 & 39) different rear sprocket sizes for their study on the best gear selection for efficiency. Bike Radar had an article on their data and findings (https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/friction-facts-free-speed-from-proper-shifting-44016/). The published data suggests that the 1x system, with its smaller chainring and larger cross-chaining angles, may be losing up to 2 - 3 Watts in some gear combinations (the worst would be the 42x9). The losses will be smaller in other gear combinations, but even still, the extra losses will probably not be compensated for by the lower weight of a 1x system, except maybe up the steepest climbs (but if bikes are already at the minimum weight allowed by the rules, they may not be able to harvest any gains from weight savings). There may be some aero gains with a 1x system, but I don't think this has ever been quantified.
Considering these 1by is also disc, no 'aero' advantage overall, I suspect.
Marketing, IMHO...I don't see that 1by For The Road answers any question, solves and problem. IMHO, of course..
Burnette
07-04-2018, 10:20 AM
3T goes double:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/07/04/3t-strada-due-adds-front-derailleur-to-fat-tire-aero-road-bike-by-popular-demand/
Gummee
07-04-2018, 04:46 PM
3T goes double:
https://bikerumor.com/2018/07/04/3t-strada-due-adds-front-derailleur-to-fat-tire-aero-road-bike-by-popular-demand/
That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM
M
Burnette
07-04-2018, 05:00 PM
That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM
M
1X still works for some consumers as you have read from users on this board. Whether or not it was right for a race tea, over specific terrain is another question. I think the answer to that question was no.
simonov
07-04-2018, 06:59 PM
That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM
M
I'm sure all my buddies with piles of dead first gen Di2 derailleurs would disagree. SRAM has certainly dropped the ball in spectacular fashion with some of their products. So has Shimano, though probably to a lesser extent. But they make plenty of killer products that stand up to abuse.
FlashUNC
07-05-2018, 10:53 AM
That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM
M
Certainly was my experience with early SRAM stuff, but the eTap I've been using through all sorts of crap for nigh on a year now has been bullet-proof thus far.
tombtfslpk
07-05-2018, 02:07 PM
That fixes one problem, but doesn't fix the 'the public are beta testers' thing SRAM has had going on for years now. I suspect it's their 'beat Shimano to the punch' mentality, but don't work for SRAM
M
I have never been let down by SRAM's supposed "beta testing" in tens of thousands of miles.
I can't say the same about Campagnolo rear derailleurs, or Shimano Dura Ace and Ultegra shifters with broken cables.
I anticipate that I'm not alone in my findings.
My opinion is that all of these drivetrain manufacturers rush products out with an emphasis on expedience over analysis.
It's unfortunate that folks can't let go of preconceived negative stereotypes.
All of this sounds like a typical racing program where a manufacturer finds a part supplier to attempt to find a competitive advantage....and fails. Happens all of the time, out of the public eye.
AngryScientist
07-05-2018, 02:16 PM
It's unfortunate that folks can't let go of preconceived negative stereotypes.
yea, but unless you happen to work for sram, this shouldnt be a big deal. its not as if these are negative stereotypes against a particular race of people, or the components we are talking about are connected to dialysis machines or emergency airbag systems.
it's just bike stuff. pros ride what they are told to ride, and us amateur hacks ride what we like.
same as the old chevy/ford fued. i definitely know guys who would NEVER own a ford product, because their old camaro outran their buddies mustang at the track every sunday.
trash talking the "other" component manufacturer is a conversation as old as cycling. facts need not get in the way!
froze
07-05-2018, 02:33 PM
Who-other than the sponsor-didn't see this coming?
LOL!! My feelings exactly.
tombtfslpk
07-05-2018, 02:39 PM
yea, but unless you happen to work for sram, this shouldnt be a big deal. its not as if these are negative stereotypes against a particular race of people, or the components we are talking about are connected to dialysis machines or emergency airbag systems.
it's just bike stuff. pros ride what they are told to ride, and us amateur hacks ride what we like.
same as the old chevy/ford fued. i definitely know guys who would NEVER own a ford product, because their old camaro outran their buddies mustang at the track every sunday.
trash talking the "other" component manufacturer is a conversation as old as cycling. facts need not get in the way!
I know, I'm a Chevy guy. Yet I own a Ford and Nissan, and a Jeep and Chevy. (age based progression) Raced Ford, GM and Chrysler products. I've been told what to use before, even if I didn't like it.
I work to be open minded enough to choose the appropriate product based upon expectations and application. If I choose wrong I'll accept the consequences.
I'm too old and tired for the "mine is better than yours" stuff any more.
AngryScientist
07-05-2018, 02:45 PM
I'm too old and tired for the "mine is better than yours" stuff any more.
:beer:
froze
07-05-2018, 02:46 PM
What I would like to know is why all this new school stuff is failing at such a high rate? When I use to race back in the caveman era, that's the 70's and 80's to you all, I never had a mechanical failure, not including flats of course, and that included while racing and training, and I ran on all Suntour, which not only survived my racing years but it survived all the years since then and up to this present day with now around 160,000 miles on the components. While I did take care of my stuff I seriously doubt I did anywhere near as good of a job than a pro mechanic.
I haven't had any issues with my newest stuff the 105 components (Ultegra rear) on my Lynskey I got in 2013, but I haven't put on anywhere near as many miles as did when I use to race so that's not a fair comparison.
m4rk540
07-05-2018, 03:04 PM
What I would like to know is why all this new school stuff is failing at such a high rate? When I use to race back in the caveman era, that's the 70's and 80's to you all, I never had a mechanical failure
I haven't had any issues with my newest stuff the 105 components (Ultegra rear) on my Lynskey I got in 2013, but I haven't put on anywhere near as many miles as did when I use to race so that's not a fair comparison.
These days.
Durability
Affordability
Low weight-abililty
Choose one.
FlashUNC
07-05-2018, 03:12 PM
What I would like to know is why all this new school stuff is failing at such a high rate? When I use to race back in the caveman era, that's the 70's and 80's to you all, I never had a mechanical failure, not including flats of course, and that included while racing and training, and I ran on all Suntour, which not only survived my racing years but it survived all the years since then and up to this present day with now around 160,000 miles on the components.
Your derailleur pulley wheels must look like pizza cutters by now.
Gummee
07-05-2018, 06:00 PM
I have never been let down by SRAM's supposed "beta testing" in tens of thousands of miles.
I can't say the same about Campagnolo rear derailleurs, or Shimano Dura Ace and Ultegra shifters with broken cables.
I anticipate that I'm not alone in my findings.
My opinion is that all of these drivetrain manufacturers rush products out with an emphasis on expedience over analysis.
It's unfortunate that folks can't let go of preconceived negative stereotypes.
All of this sounds like a typical racing program where a manufacturer finds a part supplier to attempt to find a competitive advantage....and fails. Happens all of the time, out of the public eye.
I'm not talking out my rear end here. I lost count of how many SRAM/Avid brakes I've had to warranty because of one fault or another. Just like Shimano, there have been a handful of normal shifters and derailleurs.
...like the recall on the 1st SRAM ydro road brakes...
Nope. I'll stick to Shimano and if needed Campy rather than run SRAM stuff.
Speaking of which, I need to bleed the 'ridden 9x' SRAM brakes on my Top Fuel. ...or I could swap em out for the XTs I have waiting.
I'd love for them to get their crap straight again. I do like the design philosophy. Just not their ability to manufacture anything
M
froze
07-05-2018, 10:33 PM
These days.
Durability
Affordability
Low weight-abililty
Choose one.
Just because it was the 70's and 80's doesn't mean people were blind to having lighter weight stuff on their bikes, in fact if you know anything about vintage stuff they even drilled out stuff to make it lighter what was called drillium.
So a Suntour Cyclone MKII rear derailleur weighed 164 grams, Shimano DA mechanical weighs 166 grams...hmmm. And what's really weird is that the Suntour Cyclone MKII wasn't even the lightest derailleur back in that era, the lightest was the Huret Jubilee that weighed 145 grams, but the performance of the Huret wasn't as good as the Suntour due to flexing issues with the cage but it seemed to have no mechanical issues that I ever heard of but I have no first hand experience with the Huret. I stayed away from French stuff because they seemed to be the worst performing of all the components that were out there back then.
froze
07-05-2018, 10:41 PM
Your derailleur pulley wheels must look like pizza cutters by now.
the Pulleys are a maintenance item so let's not get weird here, as is the chain and cables, thus my original suntour chain and pulleys are long gone as well, but the bearings that were in the original pulleys never failed which isn't a big deal since I can't recall ever seeing any pulley bearing fail no matter the brand or era. But I do have the original bearings in my Suntour Superbe grease port hubs, as well as in my BB, and the hubs are the smoothest and free spinning hubs of all the hubs I have including my other vintage and much more modern ones I have.
m4rk540
07-05-2018, 11:33 PM
Just because it was the 70's and 80's doesn't mean people were blind to having lighter weight stuff on their bikes, in fact if you know anything about vintage stuff they even drilled out stuff to make it lighter what was called drillium.
So a Suntour Cyclone MKII rear derailleur weighed 164 grams, Shimano DA mechanical weighs 166 grams...hmmm. And what's really weird is that the Suntour Cyclone MKII wasn't even the lightest derailleur back in that era, the lightest was the Huret Jubilee that weighed 145 grams, but the performance of the Huret wasn't as good as the Suntour due to flexing issues with the cage but it seemed to have no mechanical issues that I ever heard of but I have no first hand experience with the Huret. I stayed away from French stuff because they seemed to be the worst performing of all the components that were out there back then.
That's what I mean. 70's were better.
oldpotatoe
07-06-2018, 06:57 AM
I have never been let down by SRAM's supposed "beta testing" in tens of thousands of miles.
I can't say the same about Campagnolo rear derailleurs, or Shimano Dura Ace and Ultegra shifters with broken cables.
I anticipate that I'm not alone in my findings.
My opinion is that all of these drivetrain manufacturers rush products out with an emphasis on expedience over analysis.
It's unfortunate that folks can't let go of preconceived negative stereotypes.
All of this sounds like a typical racing program where a manufacturer finds a part supplier to attempt to find a competitive advantage....and fails. Happens all of the time, out of the public eye.
What gummee above said...
Maybe but your 'findings' may not be the same as 'some' who are in the trenches, in the bike shop, and see dozens of bikes, with many different groups from the different manufacturers, every week..or those who are bike product managers or warranty centers that 'may' see a different picture.
froze
07-06-2018, 09:36 AM
That's what I mean. 70's were better.
It's a give and take between old school and new school stuff. For example, I'll take modern tires and tubes over the old stuff any day of the week, they are a quantum leap forward superior. Modern cables are better in regards to reduced friction. I won't get into frame material discussion other than to say I love my modern titanium framed bike over steel in comfort...but I liked steel over other materials in regards to comfort, and I like the artsy look of the older steel bikes, obviously high end carbon is the lightest material currently, but there's more to life than having the lightest thing you can buy. Old school chains and gears lasted at least twice as long as the new school stuff, but in order to get more gears they had to reduce the thickness of the gears which shortened their life, and make narrower and thinner material chains which of course shortened their lives as well, so while it's con the modern stuff doesn't last as long but it's also a pro because you get more gears so I guess it's a push. Also modern aluminium rims are much better, they're lighter yet stronger and more aero, I wouldn't go that far with CF rims. Rim brakes pads for aluminium rims have seen no change, 80's era Scott Mathauser orange solid pads are virtually unchanged except for the name was changed to Kool Stop Salmon pads, which are still the best today. Some argue that the braking power of modern disk brakes are the best, under certain circumstances that's true but not on dry days, they're the same, why you scream? Because braking forces are all subject to the tire's adhesion to the road and that's it, nothing more, once you reach the adhesion limits the tires will skid and this can be done no matter what era of brake your using; some will argue that disk brakes react faster, true, but there is also less modulation, which is why I like my single pivot brakes better than my dual pivot brakes even though my dual pivots react faster I can't modulate them as well as I can with my single pivots, and disk brakes have taken that modulation factor even further out of the picture. This lack of modulation is something that I like to feel like I have total control and can feel what the brakes are doing, it's like one of my cars has steering by wire, it just doesn't have that feeling of being connected to the car and the road like hydraulic has, the same is true with that same car that has throttle by wire. Of course this entire paragraph is just my opinion but that's what forums are for is to share opinions.
What's really a weird thing I noticed since I've use to own Ergo and still have STI is that Suntour Superbe Tech and my Mountech derailleurs both shift just as fast and sometimes faster when done properly, and those are friction. Even my SIS stuff shifts a tad faster than modern Ergo and STI; in fact SIS is much closer to the speed of friction, sometimes friction is faster sometimes slower depending if on how accurately I engage the shifter. I know what some of you are thinking that I'm full of schit, but if own these types of bikes (especially with Suntour derailleurs) and spent any time riding them you would know that I'm not. What a lot of people don't realize is that today's STI is really just SIS that they relocated the shifter from the down tube to the brake levers, that's all they did, and because of the extra length of cable travel and more cable bends with STI it slows down the response vs SIS downtube shifters. Of course you can argue that STI is faster due to the shifter is in the brake lever and you don't have to waste time reaching down to grab shifters, this is true, but I was talking about the mechanical function not the human physical function.
The other thing I hear about electronic shifting as a major pro to having them is that they will shift under load, ok, but so did my Suntour Superbe Tech! Yeah people didn't realize that Superbe Tech (and Mountech so far on mild hills of NE Indiana with a touring load, but I haven't used it on steep mountains yet to know just how much it can do that) was capable of that feat; I use to race in the mountains of So. California and would grab gears all the time with the Superbe Tech without backing off the pedal pressure, the thing would shift with a bang, which was a bit rougher on the gears but I was racing so I didn't care if the rear gears had to be replaced a bit more frequently, but they still lasted twice as long as the chain. And electronic shifting as added a level of complexity to cycling that is what the opposite of what cycling was originally designed to be, and it only stands to reason with that complexity has come reliability issues.
Jaybee
07-06-2018, 09:38 AM
This thread is full of nostalgia and anecdotes, and very little in the way of actual quantitative data.
froze
07-06-2018, 09:39 AM
This thread is full of nostalgia and anecdotes, and very little in the way of actual quantitative data.
Yup, so why don't you show us some?
Jaybee
07-06-2018, 09:49 AM
Yup, so why don't you show us some?
I don’t work for a bicycle component manufacturer with access to failure rates and warranty data. Nor am I aware of any published data on the same.
Without that information, I’m not willing to offer definitive statements on reliability, function, whatever over an entire companies’ products. I’d guess that all 3 major component companies are within a standard deviation with respect to product failures.
I do know that humans are generally bad at estimating things by feel (absent actual math) and highly prone to confirmation bias. This thread is a master class in confirmation bias.
froze
07-06-2018, 02:13 PM
I don’t work for a bicycle component manufacturer with access to failure rates and warranty data. Nor am I aware of any published data on the same.
Without that information, I’m not willing to offer definitive statements on reliability, function, whatever over an entire companies’ products. I’d guess that all 3 major component companies are within a standard deviation with respect to product failures.
I do know that humans are generally bad at estimating things by feel (absent actual math) and highly prone to confirmation bias. This thread is a master class in confirmation bias.
Wait, you commented about the lack of quantitative evidence but can't back up what you sounded like you knew a lot about. So in other words you too are a master of confirmation bias...absent of any facts to support what you're screaming about.
When Consumer Reports does their reliability studies they get their information by sending letters to their subscription base and their supporters who then respond on various things they bought. Lets take appliances for example. In 1973 a CR reported that the average appliance life expectancy was 24 years, today it's 8 years, this is not information that CR got from failure rates the manufacture supplied them with, do you really think that manufactures are going to tell the general public about their own failure rates? Wow, if every company did that a lot companies would go out of business, either that or it would force them to substantially improve their products which would be good thing for us but companies would never do that because it's a closely held secret; and on the same token companies are not going to release their warranty claims ratios either because of potential damage it could cause. So CR gets the information from people that use the products.
And that's the only way anyone here can tell you if (a) certain product(s) were or are more reliable than others and when were they, all because of first hand experience. You can't even trust most online or magazine reviews because the companies and products they review are advertisers with them, and if they give some product of a major advertiser an F grade, or a one star grade, that company will pull it's money out. So instead the magazine or online site says flowery stuff like instead of saying that SRAM X1 is a piece of garbage that's always having issues, they say stuff like SRAM is constantly looking at ways to improve the X1, much prettier don't you think? and since SRAM does heavy advertising with that company instead of saying it gets a 1 star rating they rate it 4 1/2 stars because there's room for improvement, also another pretty way of saying it's crap. Not picking of X1 by the way just an example.
So that's what forums are all about, peoples first hand (users) knowledge of said products that they then inform the rest of us about any issues and what to expect or even how to correct certain issues if possible.
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