The 'evolution' of gravel racing-Opinion

[oldpotatoe]

Interesting
I have not and will not ever compete as a team in support of one individual at a mass-start gravel event just to win, because I believe that’s not what these events are about. It’s well within the rules of the event to execute team tactics, but personally, I won’t do it. That’s my take. You’re allowed your opinion, and I welcome the conversation.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/opinion-a-two-time-dirty-kanza-winners-view-on-the-spirit-of-gravel-racing/

[Lewis Moon]

Interesting


https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/opinion-a-two-time-dirty-kanza-winners-view-on-the-spirit-of-gravel-racing/

Reminds me of the old saying: "Call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye".

When winning becomes more important than the overall experience, the rot sets in. The entire Team Sky phenomena has completely put me off stage racing. Quickstep threatens to do the same in the classics. The one saving grace there is that there are so many wild cards (weather, cobbles, etc) that make the Classics hard to overwhelm with team tactics. Perhaps gravel racing is similar?

[Hellgate]

Hummm... "Locals only dude."

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[wallymann]

The entire Team Sky phenomena has completely put me off stage racing. Quickstep threatens to do the same in the classics.

sky, postal, la-vie-claire, molteni, ...

quickstep, mapei, ti-raleigh, molteni, ...

gravel, cross, mtb, ...

nothing new here.

[Clean39T]

sky, postal, la-vie-claire, molteni, ...

quickstep, mapei, ti-raleigh, molteni, ...

gravel, cross, mtb, ...

nothing new here.Didn't Hampsten's Gavia spectacle launch from the 7-11 boys employing the TTT tactic to launch him on the climb?

Case ---- point.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[earlfoss]

Sure doesn't take long for people to mess up a good thing, does it?

The pros and uber-serious racers can rationalize their behavior however they want but they're scene killers. Then when things get dramatic and they get called out, they get to showcase their world class ability to whine and complain.

[Mzilliox]

So far the President is not trying to privatise my gravel trails so i can still ride them any time i want without anyone trying to race me. I do not have to sign up to gravel events to ride gravel, and i do not have to not race at events to not race at events. I can simply not support them with money if i don't like they way they have formulated.

as soon as you call it gravel racing and not gravel riding, i think you have the problem. and in this country literally every single thing is a competition to be done faster, better, harder and more sincere by some other person. even charity is a frickin competition in this country. Maybe thats human nature, but i dont think it is.

[wallymann]

Usa! Usa! Usa! Usa! Usa! Usa!

;-)

so far the president is not trying to privatise my gravel trails so i can still ride them any time i want without anyone trying to race me. I do not have to sign up to gravel events to ride gravel, and i do not have to not race at events to not race at events. I can simply not support them with money if i don't like they way they have formulated.

As soon as you call it gravel racing and not gravel riding, i think you have the problem. And in this country literally every single thing is a competition to be done faster, better, harder and more sincere by some other person. Even charity is a frickin competition in this country. Maybe thats human nature, but i dont think it is.

[fignon's barber]

The pros and uber-serious racers can rationalize their behavior however they want but they're scene killers.

In general, I think it's a phenomena with a lot of the US ex pros. When they rode for money, they portrayed themselves as mellow, not-so-serious dudes. Retired, they suddenly become the second coming of Hinault. Makes me appreciate guys like Hampsten, Roll, and Lemond that much more.

[Clean39T]

So far the President is not trying to privatise my gravel trails so i can still ride them any time i want without anyone trying to race me.

[•••] even charity is a frickin competition in this country. Maybe thats human nature, but i dont think it is.



Talkin’ Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues

WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN

I saw it advertised one day
Bear Mountain picnic was comin’ my way
“Come along ’n’ take a trip
We’ll bring you up there on a ship
Bring the wife and kids
Bring the whole family”
Yippee!

Well, I run right down ’n’ bought a ticket
To this Bear Mountain Picnic
But little did I realize
I was in for a picnic surprise
Had nothin’ to do with mountains
I didn’t even come close to a bear

Took the wife ’n’ kids down to the pier
Six thousand people there
Everybody had a ticket for the trip
“Oh well,” I said, “it’s a pretty big ship
Besides, anyway, the more the merrier”

Well, we all got on ’n’ what d’ya think
That big old boat started t’ sink
More people kept a-pilin’ on
That old ship was a-slowly goin’ down
Funny way t’ start a picnic

Well, I soon lost track of m’ kids ’n’ wife
So many people there I never saw in m’ life
That old ship sinkin’ down in the water
Six thousand people tryin’ t’ kill each other
Dogs a-barkin’, cats a-meowin’
Women screamin’, fists a-flyin’, babies cryin’
Cops a-comin’, me a-runnin’
Maybe we just better call off the picnic

I got shoved down ’n’ pushed around
All I could hear there was a screamin’ sound
Don’t remember one thing more
Just remember wakin’ up on a little shore
Head busted, stomach cracked
Feet splintered, I was bald, naked . . .
Quite lucky to be alive though

Feelin’ like I climbed outa m’ casket
I grabbed back hold of m’ picnic basket
Took the wife ’n’ kids ’n’ started home
Wishin’ I’d never got up that morn

Now, I don’t care just what you do
If you wanta have a picnic, that’s up t’ you
But don’t tell me about it, I don’t wanta hear it
’Cause, see, I just lost all m’ picnic spirit
Stay in m’ kitchen, have m’ own picnic . . .
In the bathroom

Now, it don’t seem to me quite so funny
What some people are gonna do f’r money
There’s a bran’ new gimmick every day
Just t’ take somebody’s money away
I think we oughta take some o’ these people
And put ’em on a boat, send ’em up to Bear Mountain . . .
For a picnic



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[David Kirk]

I was involved with mountain bike racing way back in the day....pre NORBA. It was low key casual competition, cargo shorts and T shirts, 30+ lbs bikes and toe clips or flats. Those that were taking part in it liked it this way.

Then it started the change. Races and racers got more serious. I can remember being yelled at and given crap because I was too serious wearing Lycra shorts. I wanted to do well and treated it seriously and I did this thing called "training" and was actually asked by other racers if I "trained" and when I said yes I was told I was ruining the sport. There was a race in Maine that I did that had a long flat rails-to-trails section and another guy and I broke away and worked together, drafting god forbid, and went on to win. There was serious talk after the event to pull the win from us for drafting. When we asked if there was a rule against it they said no but that it wasn't in the spirit of mountain biking.

Of course the mountain bike racing wasn't being ruined....it was just changing. Some will like the change and others won't but there's no way to stop it.

Gravel is the same way. It's fun and can be whatever the rider wants it to be....but once you call a ride a "race" it will change how people will do it. It's human nature to want to win and people will push the rules to the point of breaking to win. To expect anything less is folly. So gravel racers drafting and using aero bars and doing all they can to make the bikes weigh nothing is the norm and to be expected. If the powers that be think it's being ruined they can write rules that will preserve it....but it will be an ongoing battle.

It's how racing works.

dave

[colker]

So far the President is not trying to privatise my gravel trails so i can still ride them any time i want without anyone trying to race me. I do not have to sign up to gravel events to ride gravel, and i do not have to not race at events to not race at events. I can simply not support them with money if i don't like they way they have formulated.

as soon as you call it gravel racing and not gravel riding, i think you have the problem. and in this country literally every single thing is a competition to be done faster, better, harder and more sincere by some other person. even charity is a frickin competition in this country. Maybe thats human nature, but i dont think it is.

Good post.

[unterhausen]

we have a lot of outside promoters that come here to Central PA and put on mtb races. So far, no gravel races. The closest thing is probably Keystone Gravel, which sells out every year. It really isn't that big of a deal, I have ridden on race courses during the race many times. OTOH, there might not be enough ambulances for them to run a gravel race here. Good descenders on gravel are just insane.

[Black Dog]

No one is forcing anyone to sign up for these events (races). Go out an ride the roads fro free or find events that are rides and not mass start. There is also the option of just doing the race at your own pace. As soon as you call something a race then people will work hard to win at any cost and the fun vacuum gets turned up to 11. The problem is that people who take the racing seriously seem to take themselves seriously as well.

[kevinvc]

I think the frustration some people have, at least from mt biking, is that some of the real good track has seen a spike in more aggressive riders training to race. I've heard from a number of folks that there has been a big uptick in the number of users riding the razor edge of maintaining control and not very patient towards others in areas that used to be pretty chill. They say it tends to pick up particularly in the couple of weeks before a large race is scheduled in the area.

I don't know if this is true or not, but it's certainly their perception. I don't know how much this would translate to gravel riding if there are more races on that surface.

[azrider]

Sheeesh. Can't believe the sentiment towards this. The article sounds like sour grapes to me. Should everyone just get a "participation" medal instead?

If you pay entry and pin a number............it's a race. Period.

I for one think that events AND participants should appreciate past Pro's coming to race. I geek out when I see past Tour rider out on same course. Granted I'm not finishing anywhere near their time, I think it definitely adds bit of prestige to the event when they do show up.

[Andy sti]

Sheeesh. Can't believe the sentiment towards this. The article sounds like sour grapes to me. Should everyone just get a "participation" medal instead?

I'm with you. It's a gravel "RACE!" She hasn't won the last couple years so she's complaining. Who cares that she and Rusch came up with some unwritten "rules" once upon a time.

We had a thread about guys wearing skinsuits and using aerobars in gravel races a week ago and now this. So if I want to travel with some teammates to a race we can't ride/race together? We can't push the pace if we want? So lame.

AZrider, you're doing Leadville. Guys use aerobars and race that too. I think Topeak/Ergon also brings a team.

I love doing gravel rides and like getting off (or is it on?) the beaten track. Tons of fun. I also like doing races. If I show up for a race I plan on racing.

[Jaybee]

"Try to finish first but don't do x" is always going to have people pushing the boundaries of what x is.

[bigbill]

The big organizer around here, Spinistry, puts on events where you can choose to race or ride. Racers go off first. It's a series and the winner gets a nice set of Cantu wheels. I've done about half a dozen gravel races this year and it's a different dynamic than road racing. The big packs break up not far into an event. If the course is rough, then you have to pick your line and pack riding insn't good for that. It's more of a strung out group. I enjoy doing the events even though the last two have been epic with a night race in high heat and humidity, and the race last weekend in 100+ degrees and really dusty conditions. At any time, I can sit up and make it a "ride".

[azrider]

Pardon my genuine ignorance when it comes to these gravel type races but how much do team tactics really play into it? From what I've read, everybody is up in arms because Geoff Kabush's wife rode with Geoff "for the last 100 miles or so"...............it's a 200 mile race!!

If you see/saw that happening or playing out then just grab their wheel and enjoy the ride.

This whole "i'm upset because they broke an unwritten rule that I created" is absolutely bogus.

[Tandem Rider]

I'm confused, there are folks upset because other people in a race they signed up for RACED?? The horror of it all. I've done a lot of gravel races over the years and every single time I knew everyone else on the line was racing too. The goal was to win, you know, finish first, ahead of everyone else. Occasionally I managed to do that, usually not, but that's racing.

Sometimes, there was even team tactics. I bet that sometimes they even planned it in advance. Often, I was on the receiving end of tactics, guess what? That's racing.

There is only one reason for not winning the race, you didn't cross the line first. Everything else is whining and making excuses.

[DrSpoke]

First off, I have been following the career of Amanda "Panda" Nauman for more than a few years and have a lot of respect for her and her opinions. It started with her participation, and winner of along w/a couple of 2nd place finishes, in the Belgian Waffle Ride here in Southern California. It's an event I've participated in 3 times - the full Waffle distance (144mi total, 40+mi on dirt, 13,000+') twice and the shorter Wafer distance once. It's a grueling event. Amanda is a world class cyclocross racer and a long time participant in gravel and mtn bike events. I also follow her on Strava and her training rides are amazing. All this while maintaining a full time job - so not a "professional" in the true sense, and, of course, limiting her ability to compete full time in the European Cx events.

Most, though not all (Dave Kirk, among others), of the posts here remind me of the television talking heads who weighed in on the Lance Armstrong doping drama all the while knowing basically nothing of the of the sport. The DK200 has not been advertised as a race - the winner gets a belt buckle for cryin' out loud. There are no points for a season/world championship, etc. It's just an event, like many gravel rides, where for most it's a personal test but for more elite riders it's the prestige of a win. I don't know much about the R2D2 but would guess it's similar. I do know that many randonnee events are like this - no winner, but there is a winner. Say, Paris-Brest-Paris.

I don't think her post was sour grapes. She has placed 2nd or worse in many events and I've never seen a response like this. The last 80 or so miles of the course were into very stiff headwinds. And this, of course, after 120 miles of dirt, mud, hills and water. So there is a very real advantage to a draft. And the lament is that the women's winner was drafting her husband who, I will assume, was a stronger rider. I was also assume he was riding to assist her in her winning aspirations rather than his own. That is, she was beaten by a team rather than an individual. I think she is basically saying is that, as a long time gravel racer, she doesn't agree with those types of tactics.

I do agree with other here in that the sport is changing as it becomes more well know and bigger names are coming into the events. I suspect that there will be more rules in the future tough no idea what those might be. It certainly could include those re team tactics, drafting, etc. Triathalon, for example, does not allow drafting and seems to be working.

[azrider]

I'm with you. It's a gravel "RACE!" She hasn't won the last couple years so she's complaining. Who cares that she and Rusch came up with some unwritten "rules" once upon a time.

We had a thread about guys wearing skinsuits and using aerobars in gravel races a week ago and now this. So if I want to travel with some teammates to a race we can't ride/race together? We can't push the pace if we want? So lame.

AZrider, you're doing Leadville. Guys use aerobars and race that too. I think Topeak/Ergon also brings a team.

I love doing gravel rides and like getting off (or is it on?) the beaten track. Tons of fun. I also like doing races. If I show up for a race I plan on racing.

Yeah so I guess along with the Kabush/Nauman beef there were some hurt 'butts' about Ted King showing up with AeroBars. Good grief. WGAF. If somebody shows up at a race with something that might make them faster I'm supposed to get my feathers ruffled and make a rule against it??? How lame. Dudes show up to events with Camelbacks too.....because I refuse to "race" with one does that mean I should make a rule against it??

You bring up good point about Leadville. It was once very similar to DK in the sense that it was only really known within certain circles. Ever since an ex-pro by name of LA participated it's become this behemoth that now requires qualifying to enter. I guarantee this "controversy" over DK will bring more awareness, and more participants, and MORE teams/tactics/etc. Either abide or go ride by yourself.


Most, though not all (Dave Kirk, among others), of the posts here remind me of the television talking heads who weighed in on the Lance Armstrong doping drama all the while knowing basically nothing of the of the sport

lol :rolleyes:

[e-RICHIE]

In as much as the DK200 is a gravel race, it's no different than any event with an entry fee, numbers and pins, and a finish line. You line up, and if you've got a competitive gene in your soul, you're there to win - or do the best you can under the circumstances. The writer said she had help from her partner when a bad flat occurred. She said she rode with her teammates (people in her club) when she won, but denied accusations that there was any teamwork or drafting. I like Amanda, and know her for cx. But there's a real disconnect here. If KK rode with Luke and says it was for the experience of sharing the event with him, so be it. There was a time not too long ago when many of us thought he'd never ride again.

I'm sorry, but the story is more clickbait than it is news, much less valid news.

[spoonrobot]

Can women racers not complete the Dirty Kanza without assistance from their partners/significant others?

What a strange article. The gravel events down here around Atlanta didn't really take off until 2014/2015 and have always been competitive with teams and attempted tactics. The courses are almost always rough enough and with enough elevation that small differences in fitness blow up teams before they can get anything done but they do try. I couldn't imagine someone showing up at the ramble or fried green 50 and telling the georgia neuro guys not to work together or the peachtree bikes team they shouldn't try to put their best gravel racer on the podium. Just one of those :confused: articles that seems not to have a point.

[geordanh]

Ridiculous article. A bit embarassing really. It's racing.

[oliver1850]

I haven't read the rules of the event, and am assuming none were broken by the winners.

The offended party can either come more prepared to compete next year, or get the rules changed more to her liking.

[fignon's barber]

I'm not really big on this DK "win". There were different classes using the same race course. Let's say this were a USAC road race and a Cat IV rider had pre-planned a scheme to have a few Cat I's from his club (after dropping off the back of their race) jump out of the bushes at the half way point of the CatIV race and ttt him to a solo victory. Would you be good with that? Same principal.

[unterhausen]

Yeah, having a ringer pull you to the finish doesn't seem right. Sounds like that's the complaint. How does USAC handle different categories drafting each other? I recognize that DK is a bit different and classes have always mixed in the past, but this seems questionable.

[gdw]

AZrider
Did you race or work any of the Leadville events before Lance showed up or Lifetime Fitness bought it? I seem to remember that an awful lot of the long time participants weren't impressed with the tactics he used, pacers/team, to win the event after losing to Dave Wiens one on one his first year.

[ptourkin]

First off, I have been following the career of Amanda "Panda" Nauman for more than a few years and have a lot of respect for her and her opinions. It started with her participation, and winner of along w/a couple of 2nd place finishes, in the Belgian Waffle Ride here in Southern California. It's an event I've participated in 3 times - the full Waffle distance (144mi total, 40+mi on dirt, 13,000+') twice and the shorter Wafer distance once. It's a grueling event. Amanda is a world class cyclocross racer and a long time participant in gravel and mtn bike events. I also follow her on Strava and her training rides are amazing. All this while maintaining a full time job - so not a "professional" in the true sense, and, of course, limiting her ability to compete full time in the European Cx events.

Most, though not all (Dave Kirk, among others), of the posts here remind me of the television talking heads who weighed in on the Lance Armstrong doping drama all the while knowing basically nothing of the of the sport. The DK200 has not been advertised as a race - the winner gets a belt buckle for cryin' out loud. There are no points for a season/world championship, etc. It's just an event, like many gravel rides, where for most it's a personal test but for more elite riders it's the prestige of a win. I don't know much about the R2D2 but would guess it's similar. I do know that many randonnee events are like this - no winner, but there is a winner. Say, Paris-Brest-Paris.

I don't think her post was sour grapes. She has placed 2nd or worse in many events and I've never seen a response like this. The last 80 or so miles of the course were into very stiff headwinds. And this, of course, after 120 miles of dirt, mud, hills and water. So there is a very real advantage to a draft. And the lament is that the women's winner was drafting her husband who, I will assume, was a stronger rider. I was also assume he was riding to assist her in her winning aspirations rather than his own. That is, she was beaten by a team rather than an individual. I think she is basically saying is that, as a long time gravel racer, she doesn't agree with those types of tactics.

I do agree with other here in that the sport is changing as it becomes more well know and bigger names are coming into the events. I suspect that there will be more rules in the future tough no idea what those might be. It certainly could include those re team tactics, drafting, etc. Triathalon, for example, does not allow drafting and seems to be working.



Kind of. Luke rides for UHC and was badly injured in a crash. Before the race, he and Katie decided to ride together as part of his comeback. They wanted to finish together. By all reports, she was taking pulls too, not simply drafting him. They both fell out of the lead pack and caught on with a chase group. Allison and Amanda have both used the tactic of riding with the lead pack in the past. They didn't or couldn't this year.

I've been following Amanda for a while too, since she raced in Dorothy Wong's SoCal Cross series. I think her statements in the past few days after the dust settled have been more diplomatic and reasoned. Katie was able to catch and ride with the front group because she's fast, not because of who she is married to. Amanda was accused to the same tactics last year. Nobody has mentioned that Matt Stevens grabbed a wheel from an actual teammate this year, of if they have, I didn't see it.

Whatever happens at the front of this event has very little impact on the vast majority of people participating. In the end, it's just food for the internet.

[ptourkin]

Interesting aside for anyone who watched the GCN videos of their Dirty Kanza rider (who finished, unlike a certain pair of touring social media celebrities) - in the videos, she was shown consuming pickles. This was apparently from some kind of illegal support, probably to do with the cameras, and she was DQ'd this week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC4t-nF-0tw

[Macadamia]

idk unless they put together some rules anything goes.

velonews covered this, that with any sort of mass start race, there's an added dynamic for women trying to hang with the men's front group for as long as possible, you can end up blowing up, or get the cover of the strongest group on the road and end up winning.

who is helping who is pretty ambiguous and hard to ever get a handle on for spectators, there are inter-team and rider alliances in just about any race that nobody would officially admit to

[DrSpoke]

Kind of. Luke rides for UHC and was badly injured in a crash. Before the race, he and Katie decided to ride together as part of his comeback. They wanted to finish together. By all reports, she was taking pulls too, not simply drafting him. They both fell out of the lead pack and caught on with a chase group. Allison and Amanda have both used the tactic of riding with the lead pack in the past. They didn't or couldn't this year.

I've been following Amanda for a while too, since she raced in Dorothy Wong's SoCal Cross series. I think her statements in the past few days after the dust settled have been more diplomatic and reasoned. Katie was able to catch and ride with the front group because she's fast, not because of who she is married to. Amanda was accused to the same tactics last year. Nobody has mentioned that Matt Stevens grabbed a wheel from an actual teammate this year, of if they have, I didn't see it.

Whatever happens at the front of this event has very little impact on the vast majority of people participating. In the end, it's just food for the internet.

Nice response, thanks. I think what I was trying to say was that Amanda doesn't seem like a "sour grapes" kind of person. She is a competitor and I'm sure doesn't like to lose either. But for her to write this sort of essay I would assume that it wasn't merely losing but something more. Then again, it certainly could have been the heat of the moment too.