OT: Manuals - still relevant, or antiquated fun?

[William]

There was a comment in another thread about driving manuals and it got me wondering how many people still choose to drive them? I know a lot of manufacturers have moved away from manuals but there are still a few that offer them.

I personally love driving a car with a manual gear box, to me its part of the driving experience...more control of the machine I'm driving. I have a great stereo in my car but honestly I like listening to the motor when I'm working through the gears. if my regular route put me into bumper to bumper traffic often I might eventually start to think otherwise but that is something that occurs in probably less than 10% of my overall driving so it's not really on my radar.

Plus, these days it's also likely a pretty good theft deterrent since most people don't know how to drive them anymore.:)

So, you still manual?








William

[jamesdak]

There was a comment in another thread about driving manuals and it got me wondering how many people still choose to drive them? I know a lot of manufacturers have moved away from manuals but there are still a few that offer them.

I personally love driving a car with a manual gear box, to me its part of the driving experience...more control of the machine I'm driving. I have a great stereo in my car but honestly I like listening to the motor when I'm working through the gears. if my regular route put me into bumper to bumper traffic often I might eventually start to think otherwise but that is something that occurs in probably less than 10% of my overall driving so it's not really on my radar.

Plus, these days it's also likely a pretty good theft deterrent since most people don't know how to drive them anymore.:)

So, you still manual?








William

I don't right now. My last was in my Corvette C5 Z06

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/165554853.jpg

I traded in last summer on a GTI

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/166736861.jpg

with the dual clutch auto transmission. I don't think I can shift manually as fast as this auto does.

That said, I am always craving the driving experience my NC Miata

http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/157381017.jpg

gave me with it's sweet shifting manual 6 speed. I'm constantly looking for the right one to pick up and then having to talk myself back out of it. I don't need 3 cars.

I will say that no car I've ever driven has matched the wonderful feeling of a Miata driven at it's limits. Talk about wearing a car vs driving it, wow!

[oldpotatoe]

My very first Automatic in 48 years of cars(first was 1961 Beetle)was my 2017 VW GSW ‘S’ 4motion....never goin’ back.

[cmg]

I drive mostly 20 year old cars. so maybe in 20 years i'll get this years automatics. but yea, i'll drive a manual for along as I can find them. Never will own a car with a cvt. the design reminds too much of a mini-bike clutch from long ago.

[eddief]

and a manual transmission. I remember those days.

[Gummee]

I've been back and forth over the years. Right now, I've got one of each.

There are (very few*) times when just sitting there pressing an accelerator pedal and moving down the road is a good thing. ...but... 99% of the time, I'd rather drive my X3 with a stick

M

*usually post hard ride when my legs are done

[deechee]

While I understand the old school nature fun of manuals I'd never purposely look for one. As others have said, sitting in stop and go traffic while trying to hold onto the take out food that's about to tip over in the passenger seat? no thanks.

Automatics are faster, and more fuel efficient. End of story.

[palincss]

Not anymore. I seriously considered it while buying the Alltrack, and tested the 6MT on a GSW 4Motion. My bottom line: the thrill is gone: can't feel the clutch engagement anymore. I know it's possible to remove some valve in the release mechanism and there are some springs to remove as well, but honestly: 1) I don't really like the idea of hacking a car and 2) they must have put that stuff in there for some good reason, so what will removing it do long-term?

And then there are the backups. Last time I went to the Shenandoah Fall Festival it took an hour to make the quarter mile or so from the Beltway exit ramp onto I66, moving about a foot and stopping again; and when I got to to I81 it was another half hour backup on the ramp, with the same move a foot stop move a foot nonsense. That's bad enough with a DSG, but with a manual it would be unbearable.

With the Saab 900 the choice between a crappy 3 speed auto and a decent 5 speed manual was obvious. Between the 6 speed dual clutch and the 6MT, the dual clutch wins on merit even without the backups. Add in the loss of clutch engagement point feel, and it's not even close.

[William]

Automatics are faster, and more fuel efficient. End of story.


Yeah, but you can't compression start them if needed.:p


As I said, I might feel differently if I regularly had to drive in heavy traffic, but I don't.

JLG recently did an episode on the 2019 ZR1 which is still available as a manual though it is conceded that the auto is faster (he still prefers them as well)...though they both will take you north of 200+ mph...though it's unlikely most owners will ever get them close to that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFwfSZDvUCw


Preferences and choices are good and I think it's cool that some mfr's still offer them.







William

[Steve in SLO]

Cars (I have sporty ones): manual
Trucks: automatic

[Tickdoc]

I've only owned two automatics out of the seven cars I've had over the years.

They suck if you drive in traffic, and if you like to look at christmas lights, but other than that, I love em. I like that control of the car, the downshifting, the feel of the engine.

My next one will be manual too ;):banana:

[R3awak3n]

I never had an auto and just bought another manual. I had never driven an auto until I go my US drivers license in 2003. Was crazy, my buddy lend me his car and I almost crashed it, was using both feet lol

I would almost never consider an auto unless I already have a manual. Also if you drive in the city almost exclusively I can see the manual being a pain. I drive into manhattan every monday, 3-4 hour commute and it does get a bit frustrating for like 30 minutes but makes the rest of the drive a lot more fun.


dual clutch trannies are now faster than manual transmission but I am not racing so that has little influence in my decision.

[Hindmost]

I've never had an automatic. When I bought my Element I searched for a manual because they didn't make very many. Now I wish I had a automatic for traffic around here. My second car in high school was a 1931 Model A with a crash box transmission. I lived in a hilly area, it was a lesson in double clutching.

[MattTuck]

.... My second car in high school was a 1931 Model A with a crash box transmission. ....

:no: You can't put a statement like this out there and not give a backstory. :p

[bicycletricycle]

I have only had manuals and would never buy anything else.
I prefer friction shifting on my bike.
sensing a theme.

[jamesdak]

Not anymore. I seriously considered it while buying the Alltrack, and tested the 6MT on a GSW 4Motion. My bottom line: the thrill is gone: can't feel the clutch engagement anymore. I know it's possible to remove some valve in the release mechanism and there are some springs to remove as well, but honestly: 1) I don't really like the idea of hacking a car and 2) they must have put that stuff in there for some good reason, so what will removing it do long-term?

And then there are the backups. Last time I went to the Shenandoah Fall Festival it took an hour to make the quarter mile or so from the Beltway exit ramp onto I66, moving about a foot and stopping again; and when I got to to I81 it was another half hour backup on the ramp, with the same move a foot stop move a foot nonsense. That's bad enough with a DSG, but with a manual it would be unbearable.

With the Saab 900 the choice between a crappy 3 speed auto and a decent 5 speed manual was obvious. Between the 6 speed dual clutch and the 6MT, the dual clutch wins on merit even without the backups. Add in the loss of clutch engagement point feel, and it's not even close.

Shenadoah Fall Festival??? I just had to look that up. I'm a native of that area but long gone. Didn't know they were running such an event back there. Hmmm, maybe I need to visit my family (they all live there still) this fall.

[Brian Smith]

You answer your own question when you talk about your usage having nothing to do with sitting still in traffic.

I've always chosen cars with manual transmissions when shopping, but the market has changed in the last decade.

While our Mercedes was visiting the dealer for annual service, we were given a loaner C class with an 8-speed automatic. It was a nice car for sitting in traffic on the highway. On a suburban 40 mph road with 2 lanes plus center turn lanes at traffic lights, I approached a green, desiring to turn left, with a car coming the opposite direction, comfortably distant for me to make a safe turn in front of it. In order to be considerate of the approaching driver and not make them lift throttle or have any concerns, I gave the Mercedes 60-70% pedal in an effort to accelerate into and through the turn. What followed was about 200 anxious milliseconds of zero torque applied to the drivetrain while the car's systems tried to decide which of its ratios was best for what it thought I wanted to do. Of course a car with a manual transmission would have allowed me to select, on my own, a gear, and to know exactly what the car would do when I applied the go pedal into the turn. Owning a car such as this C class would teach me not to make that turn, as the car is simply not made for it - among the shift programs selectable, even use of the wheel-mounted paddles do not guarantee that the car remains solely in the gear you select. Safety is the most important driving habit, and giving up the ability to do some things in a manual transmission car while accepting new abilities of the guess-a-gear box is actually easy to do, but one may feel that they do not want to do so. Is there a resolution to the dilemma?

Devotees of the manual transmission, if we aren't talking about track-specific buying decisions, do have a winning drivetrain choice in the market. The combination of instantly available torque, irrespective of motor rpm, and predictable torque delivery are both characteristics of EV drivetrains, the vast majority of which have single and fixed transmission ratios. If contemporary drivetrains leave you missing some characteristics of the autos from the days of yore, you might check out an EV, and see if the driving experience doesn't restore a bit of what's gone missing in today's drivetrains while solving even more problems than the technologically-rich 4-hole 8-gear marshmallow pedal variants. They also happen to handle the bumper to bumper traffic problem for the clutch-pedal averse with aplomb. Some of them even allow you to turn off the "creep mode" feature that simulates driving a combustion-engined automatic-transmission car by trying to softly propel the cars to 5 mph when your foot comes off the brake pedal but hasn't touched the accelerator. Fancy that.

[palincss]

Shenadoah Fall Festival??? I just had to look that up. I'm a native of that area but long gone. Didn't know they were running such an event back there. Hmmm, maybe I need to visit my family (they all live there still) this fall.

It's well worth the visit. Definitely an excellent event in an exceptional area. Not to mention the Blackfriars Theatre.

[spacemen3]

I have only had manuals and would never buy anything else.
I prefer friction shifting on my bike.
sensing a theme.

QFT. A manual transmission enhances the driving experience for me. Sometimes technology just sucks the holy fun out of living.

[tuscanyswe]

Since im a weekend driver only, if that..

Theres just no other way. I enjoy downshifting to much .) Quite the opposite of my bike riding where im usually in a to heavy gear.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4373/36148817324_19c366e90d_b.jpg

[pjm]

2 cars, 2 manuals. Most “drivers” are too busy fiddling with their phones, or just too damn lazy to shift their own gears. If you do nothing but city driving, I get the automatic thing.

[572cv]

Manual:
BMW 328 xi wagon
Volvo S40 T5
Nissan Frontier 4x4
Citroen 2cv

I'd buy manual every time if I could. But I do recognize that with computers and multiple speed gear boxes comes the opportunity to maximize the efficiency of an internal combustion engine by keeping it in the right rpm band. Also that there's not a gonna be no manual transmission electric car.

[cmbicycles]

There was a comment in another thread about driving manuals and it got me wondering how many people still choose to drive them? I know a lot of manufacturers have moved away from manuals but there are still a few that offer them.

I personally love driving a car with a manual gear box, to me its part of the driving experience...more control of the machine I'm driving. I have a great stereo in my car but honestly I like listening to the motor when I'm working through the gears. if my regular route put me into bumper to bumper traffic often I might eventually start to think otherwise but that is something that occurs in probably less than 10% of my overall driving so it's not really on my radar.

Plus, these days it's also likely a pretty good theft deterrent since most people don't know how to drive them anymore.:)

So, you still manual?


William

You may want to alter your title to "Driving Manuals..." so as to not confuse this thread with the other.

I drove manual transmission cars since the 90s up until a couple years ago when i got my subaru. I had always had a honda accord manual prior and while I miss it sometimes, I definitely do not miss it during my commute. I also do not miss the GMC 6500 rollback I had to sometimes drive for a previous job.

[jtakeda]

I learned manual when I was younger but when driving 45 miles takes 2 hours on the highway I’ll take an automatic please

[AngryScientist]

yes, still driving proper 3 pedal cars here.

i rent cars often for work, and i think the low horsepower econo box typed cars really would benefit from manual transmissions, so you can really get the most out of their usable power band.

unfortunately, the choices are getting more and more limited for certain classes of cars with a manual. SUVs with any real towing power, for example - very difficult to find something current with a manual transmission. wouldnt it be cool if they still made the 4runner with a manuak? vans - forget about it.

everyone who calls themselves an adult should know how to drive a manual though, it's just part of knowing how to drive. at the very least it helps you understand gearing and what your autobox is doing.

i havent been to Europe in quite a few years, or some of the island, but i remember that if you want to rent a car in some of these places - if you dont know how to drive stick - you may either be out of luck, or renting a really expensive car.

[DRZRM]

We have a 2013 VW Sportwagon gas engine that is a manual, it was a great deal new. We also have a Subaru Outback with all the bells and whistles (their awesome cruise control that sets your speed to the speed of traffic and you can adjust how much space you leave the car in front...hell it even help keep you in your lane). Horses for courses, I never thought I'd want all that stuff, but you get used to it. That said, sometimes I prefer the manual.

[Mark McM]

I've driven manual transmission cars for decades. I like the feel and connectedness of manual shifting. However, I realize that an electronically controlled automatic transmission is not only shifts faster, but it is also better at producing performance and efficiency. In addition, I know that even if you have a manually operated transmission, the computer has already taken complete control of the engine operations. You may think that the pedal on the right controls the throttle, but it really doesn't. It is not mechanically connected to anything, and is actually just an input to the engine computer. You can "suggest" that the engine produce more or less power, but the computer is in actual control of the engine. Since the computer is already controlling the most important functions, does it really make sense to have some kind of hybrid drivetrain, the human controls the transmission? Or is it best if the computer takes control of the entire drivetrain?

[DfCas]

I can't drive an automaic as its too hard not to push in the clutch at stops.

[William]

I've driven manual transmission cars for decades. I like the feel and connectedness of manual shifting. However, I realize that an electronically controlled automatic transmission is not only shifts faster, but it is also better at producing performance and efficiency. In addition, I know that even if you have a manually operated transmission, the computer has already taken complete control of the engine operations. You may think that the pedal on the right controls the throttle, but it really doesn't. It is not mechanically connected to anything, and is actually just an input to the engine computer. You can "suggest" that the engine produce more or less power, but the computer is in actual control of the engine. Since the computer is already controlling the most important functions, does it really make sense to have some kind of hybrid drivetrain, the human controls the transmission? Or is it best if the computer takes control of the entire drivetrain?

While that certainly applies to many manual cars (esp newer), it doesn't apply to all manuals on the road.


Just saying.







William

[William]

You may want to alter your title to "Driving Manuals..." so as to not confuse this thread with the other.



Hey, I started this thread before that one, that thread title should be changed to Paper Manuals...". :)





William

[duff_duffy]

I love my manual Honda Accord. Took forever to find it but don’t plan on ever giving it up. It may be mental, but I feel like the auto version of same car is slow and boring...the manual livens it up in a good way.

[batman1425]

I've owned exactly 1 automatic, which was my first car - a '95 Honda Civic. I got an auto because my folks refused to let me have a manual just starting out. Since then:

97' Ford Ranger (Dad's car, drove it a ton though.)
'00 Mazda Miata (Dad's car, same as the ranger, drove it a bunch when he didn't need it).
'01 Nissan Sentra
'07 Audi A3
'11 Mazda 3 Hatch
'16 Golf R (current)

All manuals. Wouldn't drive anything else if I had the choice. A 6MT requirement was a major factor behind getting the Golf. Is the DSG in the R better? To be honest, yes. In most any way you measure. But I still love my manual.

[Salty]

I learned to drive on an old Jeep CJ-7, but don't miss the manual transmission sitting in horrible Bay Area traffic on steep hills. It has been almost twenty years since I owned the Jeep, but to this day my right hand always rests on the gear selector in whatever car I'm driving. There are paddle shifters on my current car, but I never use them even when it might make some sense (descending steep hills). If I had a sports car just for weekend fun, I would definitely make it a manual, but not for a daily driver where I live.

[BikeNY]

Another manual transmission fan here! Even just 10 years ago there were a lot more options out there for manual transmission cars. Big advantages were they cost less(often over $1000) and got better fuel economy. They are unfortunately not cheaper anymore in most cars, and the EPA fuel economy numbers are no longer better compared to newer DSG and CVT transmissions, but in real world driving, they still get better fuel economy. They are still cheaper to maintain and fix, especially compared to dual clutch transmissions. The real advantage is you are more connected with what the car is doing and more engaged in driving, not on other distractions. I especially find driving in snow much better with a manual because you have a better feel for the conditions and what the car is doing. I learned to drive on a manual, and when my son started driving, he also learned and now drives a manual Subaru Crosstrek. Also great because most of his friends can't drive his car!

Over my driving career I've had:
1987 Isuzu Trooper (parents) (5sp)
1990 Acura Integra (5sp)
1993(?)Jeep Grand Cherokee (only automatic)
1995 Land Rover Discovery (5sp)
1997 Audi A4 wagon (5sp)
2000 VW Golf TDI (5sp)
2003 Audi A6 Allroad (6sp))
2010 VW Golf TDI (6sp)
2015 VW Golf Sportwagon TDI (6sp)

[Hindmost]

:no: You can't put a statement like this out there and not give a backstory. :p

I don't know that it is interesting as it sounds. In the sixties there were still a lot of good vintage cars around that nobody really cared for. Think: muscle car era. My A-bone was totally stock. The transmission had no synchros. They would work okay for casual upshifting and almost no downshifting.

To accelerate the car uphill or to downshift on a downhill you had to double clutch the darn thing or it would never go into the next gear, instead making gruesome crashing sounds.

[Bruce K]

I live our 6 speed Mini Cooper S

There are just certain cars that need to be manual (paddles are OK, too)

BK

[Plum Hill]

Have had manuals since a ‘78 Z28. Since switched to Ford Rangers, all manuals.
Tried to buy a new Audi S5 last year and found out they didn’t make them with manuals. Yes on the A5 this year.
Need a left TKR soon. Not sure how I’m going to push the clutch pedal.

Just thought of my first car: ‘68 Chevy, 427, 4 speed, manual steering.
Making a turn from a stop sign was a lot of fun. Took a strong left leg and stronger upper body to crank the steering wheel.

[William]

Just a short video of pedal work on my usual commute...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4






William

[Salty]

I have a great stereo in my car but honestly I like listening to the motor when I'm working through the gears.

I suspect you and many others have already seen this, but just in case you haven't, watch at high volume: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3WLyZQqYQc

[choke]

I have two cars, both manual. I've owned a few automatics over the years but I was never happy with that aspect of them. After the last one with an auto I swore that I was never going to buy another one....I'm hoping that will be the case but given how they seem to be disappearing rapidly I may one day be forced to buy one again but I'll avoid it as long as possible.

[572cv]

I suspect you and many others have already seen this, but just in case you haven't, watch at high volume: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3WLyZQqYQc

Like watching my 2cv on fast-forward.....:eek:

[likebikes]

i'm just a youngin (most posting in this thread are my father's age or +), and i've never owned an automatic.

i really like driving stick.

also i ordered the parts to remove the clutch delay valve from my car.

[sg8357]

Depends on the car, floaty barges with faith based steering, automatic.

German autobahnsturmpanzers, automatic.

Honda Civics, CVT

Miatas, Morgans, Mazda3, etc manual or why bother owning them ?

[GonaSovereign]

I'm pleasantly surprised by this thread. I wouldn't have expected to see manuals outweigh autos.

I'll drive a manual until they're no longer available. Yes, manual suck in traffic, but if you like driving cars, automatics suck the rest of the time.

Edit: if you race your car on the track, dual clutch is faster, no question.

[Zoomie80]

Been driving a manual since 1982:
-- '82 Mazda RX-7 (cheapest car I've had in terms of maintenance; just oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, fuel filter, and 3 sets of tires in 6+ years). Great balance, so much fun in auto cross races!
-- '88 BMW 325is, wish I still had it. Totaled when I spun out in snow in 2007. Minor mods (suspension, 16" wheels, M3 FCAB, short shift kit); also great at auto crosses and any twisty roads. And it had a very usable back seat for our two young boys.
-- '06 BMW 330ci ZHP. No mods other than Koni FSD shocks/struts. Drove it daily until last year (snow tires in winter). Daily driver is now a 2010 Honda Acccord our boys used when they were in high school. Good transportation but the BMW with a manual is just so much more engaging and fun to drive.
-- Looking to get a BMW M4 in near future...manual (3 pedals!) as well.

[Tandem Rider]

Timley thread! I've had mostly manuals until I got married, then a mix. Farm kid here, learned on a tractor without sychronizers. TRJunior just got his first car today. It's a beat up Mazda 323 with a 5 speed. He drove my old truck before which was a manual (3rd gear is on the radio) so he'll be fine. In a few months he will be pretty proficient at it and at least no matter what he is presented with, he will be able to drive it.

[ergott]

Manual all the way!

I don't care if I lose a few tenths or 1mpg. I need to feel like I'm in charge of at least one thing in the car. Heck, I turn off traction control on occasion and come out of my favorite corner a little hot.

In traffic it gives me something to do. Plus the engine braking helps in slow going. I leave a little bigger gap and don't care about the few turds that have to weave in and out. Let them.

I assume all you manual drivers can heal-toe into exit ramps etc. right? When it's done right, no automatic or flappy paddle car can give you that experience!

This is a bike forum, it's not like our legs aren't used to a little work now and then!

[YoKev]

I love my manuals, but I have driven a few DSG and current Subaru CVTs and been quite satisfied by both. Although my wife is quite capable of rowing through gears, it's just not something she seeks out. Our next car will probably be an automatic of some sort, which is fine.


I assume all you manual drivers can heal-toe into exit ramps etc. right?
!

Speaking strictly for the Subarus I have owned in the past and currently, heel/toe shifting was extremely easy in my 2001 Legacy Wagon. It was a little harder in the same body style 2004 Outback, but doable.

The 2012 Impreza Sport was just OK but not great.

It is nearly impossible in my current 2013 6-speed Outback with the (slight) PZEV rev hang and pedal spacing.

For what it's worth, I find the rev hang alone on the 2017 Subaru offerings I test drove to be absolutely unbearable. If I got another Subaru (big if), it'd be a CVT hands down.

[BikeNY]

Another manual transmission fan here! Even just 10 years ago there were a lot more options out there for manual transmission cars. Big advantages were they cost less(often over $1000) and got better fuel economy. They are unfortunately not cheaper anymore in most cars, and the EPA fuel economy numbers are no longer better compared to newer DSG and CVT transmissions, but in real world driving, they still get better fuel economy. They are still cheaper to maintain and fix, especially compared to dual clutch transmissions. The real advantage is you are more connected with what the car is doing and more engaged in driving, not on other distractions. I especially find driving in snow much better with a manual because you have a better feel for the conditions and what the car is doing. I learned to drive on a manual, and when my son started driving, he also learned and now drives a manual Subaru Crosstrek. Also great because most of his friends can't drive his car!

Over my driving career I've had:
1987 Isuzu Trooper (parents) (5sp)
1990 Acura Integra (5sp)
1993(?)Jeep Grand Cherokee (only automatic)
1995 Land Rover Discovery (5sp)
1997 Audi A4 wagon (5sp)
2000 VW Golf TDI (5sp)
2003 Audi A6 Allroad (6sp))
2010 VW Golf TDI (6sp)
2015 VW Golf Sportwagon TDI (6sp)

I actually forgot 2 cars in that list!

1976 Porsche 911 Targa (5sp), really fun car, but the maintenance costs got to be too much!

2016 Mini Clubman S All4 (6sp), only had it for year and just didn't love it. Drove well enough but too small inside and too quirky for me I guess. I traded it in when the new 2015 VW TDIs went back on sale.

And yeah, a dual clutch will get you around the race track a bit faster. Lucky for me, I am never on a race track, and even if I was, I would still choose a manual to be more involved in the experience.

[ergott]

A CVT is basically giving up on life:banana:

[William]

Manual all the way!



This is a bike forum, it's not like our legs aren't used to a little work now and then!


I can remember numerous times after crew practice where my legs were so spent I had to push down on my left knee with my left hand to engage the clutch of my FJ40. :eek:

Still preferred driving it over an auto.:)






William

[AngryScientist]

I was once so totally depleted and bonked out after a hilly ride that when I went to press the clutch to get moving to get home I got this tremendous shooting cramp in my calf and totally stalled the car in the shuddering manner getting out of a dirt lot. Had to take a few minutes and massage my calf before I was confident enough to move the car; lol

[jlwdm]

My last manual was my 1974 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV which I had from 1975 to 1984. I have used my cars for work, the last 20+ years in real estate, so an automatic works best for me.

One problem is a lot of great cars do not come in manual transmissions anymore. I bought a car about 9 months ago that only comes in an automatic. I have done 10 track days in the last 6 months and have only driven in manual mode as going to the track is a new experience for me. Next Monday I am going to the track with a smaller group and will start using the paddles.

I am using dynamic mode now but will probably start trying race mode (turns off the nannies) in the fall once I get a little better at driving.

I rode with an instructor in his car that is the same as mine last weekend in race mode and manual (paddles). It was exciting seeing someone who really knows what they are doing pushing the car to its limits. He also had aftermarket wheels, tires and brake pads as well as harnesses.

I have three cars all with paddle shifters and drive with paddles unless I am stuck in traffic or working. I have a lot of fun with the paddles.

Jeff

[19wisconsin64]

Great thread! After being a fan and driver of many sports cars over the years I've learned a few things. Of course, everything is personal, but without a doubt manual shifting cars offer a much higher level of driver engagement and enjoyment.

Now there is a big BUT. BUT, if the car you are driving is so fast that you can not safely or accurately shift the car as you drive along, the new more efficient transmissions may be the way to go. Once the acceleration levels dip below 4 to 5 seconds for zero to sixty miles an hour it takes a very skilled driver to shift well.

The most enjoyable car to drive right now is a Porsche Cayman / Boxster with the manual six speed transmission. The ones with the six cylinder engines, not the torquey turbo charged 4s. Everything about the car says "driver's car". Balance, linear acceleration, perfect handling, fast but not too fast. If you put in a super fast PDK automatic transmission yes the car will be faster and more fuel efficient, but you will lose some of the soul and connection to the whole act of driving.

The really weird thing now coming down the line are the soon to be released electric sports cars with zero to sixty in 2.0 seconds. These cars have no normal transmission, you are just piloting electric motors in a carbon shell while trying not to smash into anything! Ugg, I'm not ready for the future

[Gummee]

Been driving a manual since 1982:
-- '82 Mazda RX-7 (cheapest car I've had in terms of maintenance; just oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, fuel filter, and 3 sets of tires in 6+ years). Great balance, so much fun in auto cross races!
-- '88 BMW 325is, wish I still had it. Totaled when I spun out in snow in 2007. Minor mods (suspension, 16" wheels, M3 FCAB, short shift kit); also great at auto crosses and any twisty roads. And it had a very usable back seat for our two young boys.
-- '06 BMW 330ci ZHP. No mods other than Koni FSD shocks/struts. Drove it daily until last year (snow tires in winter). Daily driver is now a 2010 Honda Acccord our boys used when they were in high school. Good transportation but the BMW with a manual is just so much more engaging and fun to drive.
-- Looking to get a BMW M4 in near future...manual (3 pedals!) as well.

There's something about driving a BMW that you just can't quite nail down, ain't there?! I'm on my 2nd and despite the transfer case going phlooey, I'll buy another

M

[djg]

I'm no fan of the stick when I'm sitting in traffic, but there are all sorts of situations where I prefer a manual transmission, even if automatics do all sorts of things better than they once did (and some, probably, better than I do). We have more than one family vehicle but my car is a 2006 M3 with a stick.

[Red Tornado]

Always preferred manual tranny's and have owned several vehicles with. Currently the only one we have in the driveway is my wife's '09 Beetle.
Like the feel of being more in control of the car and a manual is lighter than an automatic, it then there are sometimes issues with the clutch on manuals.
None of my kids can drive a manual. I learned young driving farm equipment & the wife learned in college.
I think in all but some niches, manuals are a dying breed. Sad.

[ergott]

I drove home from mountain bike crash with broken right collarbone. That sucked to shift.

[chrismoustache]

+1 for manual.

On the verge of doing a 5speed swap from my 1987 Toyota van to my 1989 Toyota van as my '89 transmission is failing and I can't go in reverse.

The workshop manual devotes about 20 pages to manual removal and rebuild, while the auto gets about 100 pages. For the sake of simplicity and serviceability, I'll stick with manuals.

[weisan]

I drove home from mountain bike crash with broken right collarbone. That sucked to shift.

My legs cramped after a really hard group ride. That sucked to shift.

But still, I love my 95 manual honda accord.

[Zoomie80]

There's something about driving a BMW that you just can't quite nail down, ain't there?! I'm on my 2nd and despite the transfer case going phlooey, I'll buy another

M

Gummee--totally agree! Nothing better than a well executed throttle blip and down shift going into a turn and subsequent acceleration and upshift! I drive the twists, turns, dips, and rises of Clifton Road--best part of my commute when I take the BMW to work.

[type2sam]

Sold what might be my last manual vehicle - my 1973 VW Bus - last year.

Quite simply, there is no experience like driving a stick. I owned manuals from high school through to 2009 when I picked up my E39. An 88 Maxima SE, three Jettas...even my F-150 was a stick.

Ultimately, Boston traffic has done me in. The idea of being stuck crawling in stop and go for hours on 128, in the snow, working the clutch the whole time gives me nightmares.

[choke]

I drove home from mountain bike crash with broken right collarbone. That sucked to shift.Many years ago I cut a tendon in my left foot which required surgery and a cast. The only car that I owned at the time was a manual and I ended up having to use the heel of my foot on the clutch.....I got pretty good at it after 6 weeks in that cast.

[jlwdm]

Gummee--totally agree! Nothing better than a well executed throttle blip and down shift going into a turn and subsequent acceleration and upshift! I drive the twists, turns, dips, and rises of Clifton Road--best part of my commute when I take the BMW to work.

I can get the same noises, down shifts, accelerations and upshifts with my paddles. Every drive to the store requires a few extra miles of fun.

Jeff

[Brian Smith]

Great thread! After being a fan and driver of many sports cars over the years I've learned a few things. Of course, everything is personal, but without a doubt manual shifting cars offer a much higher level of driver engagement and enjoyment.

(snipped)

The really weird thing now coming down the line are the soon to be released electric sports cars with zero to sixty in 2.0 seconds. These cars have no normal transmission, you are just piloting electric motors in a carbon shell while trying not to smash into anything! Ugg, I'm not ready for the future

I concur with the first paragraph, and have had a similar experience.

Regarding the second, I think you'll find that fears that you can't be engaged by driving a future EV are unfounded. In road-going vehicles, you'll be actively managing regen with at least one of your feet, which combined with choosing to use or not use friction braking, situation dependent, will feel like a lot more than "just piloting electric motors." It's a very driver-engaged activity. Managing regen with single pedal driving in today's crop of EVs seems to be a skill more easily learned by those with experience operating previous cars with manual transmissions. The trajectory that automobile development has been on for a decade or more may give you ample reason to suspect the worst to be on the way for driving enthusiasts, but I think EVs are actually quite an exception to the norm regarding the driver engagement available.

[Brian Smith]

Manual all the way!

I don't care if I lose a few tenths or 1mpg. I need to feel like I'm in charge of at least one thing in the car. Heck, I turn off traction control on occasion and come out of my favorite corner a little hot.

In traffic it gives me something to do. Plus the engine braking helps in slow going. I leave a little bigger gap and don't care about the few turds that have to weave in and out. Let them.

I assume all you manual drivers can heal-toe into exit ramps etc. right? When it's done right, no automatic or flappy paddle car can give you that experience!

This is a bike forum, it's not like our legs aren't used to a little work now and then!

I love heel-toe downshifting and do it routinely. Exit ramps are entry level, the sharp 1st gear 15-20 mph turns are where it starts to get more challenging to be smooth, and where the fractions of a second may be more hard won. After a level of heel-toe mastery, move on to clutchless...
Watch Wyatt demonstrate and explain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwqVTikzOp4)

[Mark McM]

I find it interesting that so many here are expressing their preference for traditional manual shifting (including manual clutch) on cars, even over and above paddle shifters; yet at the same time there is so much support for electronic derailleur shifting on bicycles. Traditional manual shifting on cars is analogous to mechanical derailleur shifting on bicycles, and paddle shifting on cars is analogous to electronic derailleur shifting on bicycles. Shouldn't those who favor electronic derailleur shifting also favor paddle shifting on cars, and those who favor mechanic derailleur shifting also favor traditional manual shifting on cars?

[R3awak3n]

I find it interesting that so many here are expressing their preference for traditional manual shifting (including manual clutch) on cars, even over and above paddle shifters; yet at the same time there is so much support for electronic derailleur shifting on bicycles. Traditional manual shifting on cars is analogous to mechanical derailleur shifting on bicycles, and paddle shifting on cars is analogous to electronic derailleur shifting on bicycles. Shouldn't those who favor electronic derailleur shifting also favor paddle shifting on cars, and those who favor mechanic derailleur shifting also favor traditional manual shifting on cars?

no, the 2 are not connected the slightest. I am not sure why people keep saying that.

I will only have manual transmissions and have ETAP.

The difference btw a manual car and an auto is not the same difference as a mech bike vs an eshifting bike. On a bike you are really getting the same experince more or less. You press a paddle derailleur goes left, you press another goes right.

Everyone can ride a eshifting bike, not everyone can drive a manual. It is much more involving and and you get so much more control so to say, it is also a lot more fun. But on a bike, the fun is exactly the same, the experience is almost the same (some think its actually a better experience since easier to shift, more consistant shifting).

So yeah, i don't get the comparisons at all.... but on this forum, mechanical still rules anyways.

[AngryScientist]

i think the comparison of shifting a car to shifting a bike is silly, not relevant and pretty much a worthless analysis,

but i think it would be more appropriate to compare manual car transmissions to friction downtube shifting, and automatic transmissions to indexed shifting and CVT transmissions to electronic shifting.

[BikeNY]

An automatic transmission would be analogous to a bike that shifted itself based on your speed and cadence.

I guess you could compare Etap to something like the transmission found in modern race cars. There's no clutch pedal, but the driver still does the shifting.

[William]

Have to add, not a good comparison for reasons already mentioned.






William

[ergott]

A better comparison for cable/electric shifting is carburetor/EFI.

[Mark McM]

A better comparison for cable/electric shifting is carburetor/EFI.

That's not a good analogy at all. Many EFIs use a throttle valve that is connected directly to the accelerator pedal by a Bowden cable. In other words it still uses a purely mechanical system to transfer inputs from the operator to the mechanism (air/fuel mixture device).

In contrast, the actual articulation mechanism of mechanical and electronic derailleur systems are the same - they both use dual spring pivot slant parallelogram derailleurs to jockey chain through a pulley cage. The only difference is how the operator input is transferred to the mechanism (electrical switch and motor vs. cable). You'd have to replace the derailleur with some completely different mechanism to analogize it with switching from carburetors to fuel injection.

People seem to regard electronic shifting systems as some kind of whole new shifting technology. They are not. The exact same shifting mechanism is used for both (The afore mentioned parallelogram derailleur). The primary difference is how the control signal is transferred to the derailleur (an indexed cable movement, vs. an indexed motor movement).

[jlwdm]

...

Everyone can ride a eshifting bike, not everyone can drive a manual. It is much more involving and and you get so much more control so to say, it is also a lot more fun...

...

Driving a manual is not that difficult. I don't see a manual as having more control or more fun than my paddles.

Especially when you compare a low powered manual to some of the great cars with paddle shifters today.

Jeff

[spacemen3]

Driving a manual is not that difficult. I don't see a manual as having more control or more fun than my paddles.

Especially when you compare a low powered manual to some of the great cars with paddle shifters today.

Really, driving manuals properly does take skill if you choose to rev match or do a standing start on a steep hill with an Oldsmobuick practically kissing your bumper. Can you heel-toe with paddles or does the computer handle that for you? And under-powered cars are the best excuse for a manual transmission. James Hunt would've agreed: James Hunt’s Austin A35 Van (http://autojumble.world/stars-cars-james-hunt-a35-van/)

[AJosiahK]

absolutely manual. I cant imagine driving one thats not (unless I join that Van Club yonder)

[MaraudingWalrus]

I drive a manual Mk6 GTI and recently taught my girlfriend of many years how to drive it. Hopefully over the next year or so we get her proficient enough at it that the next car (in about a year) can be a manual as well.

My father's Porsche 991.2 is also a manual.


Driving a manual is a little bit more fun, and and that's about it. It's objectively worse in basically every way, except for it being slightly more fun in some nebulously esoteric sort of way.

There's no actual "good" logical reason to buy a manual car any more, aside it being maybe a bit cheaper...However, if you like it, that's a good enough reason, provided you acknowledge that there are going to be significant number of eyerolls from significant others, and that if someone shows up next to you in the flappypaddle version of the car, they'll be faster while also getting better gas mileage and not destroying their left leg in traffic.

[jlwdm]

...

Can you heel-toe with paddles or does the computer handle that for you?

...

You can left foot brake.

Jeff

[Gummee]

Really, driving manuals properly does take skill if you choose to rev match or do a standing start on a steep hill with an Oldsmobuick practically kissing your bumper. Can you heel-toe with paddles or does the computer handle that for you? And under-powered cars are the best excuse for a manual transmission. James Hunt would've agreed: James Hunt’s Austin A35 Van (http://autojumble.world/stars-cars-james-hunt-a35-van/)

My X3 is one of those 'somewhat underpowered cars that are fun because they have a manual in em.'

I've got the 2.5 I-6 in the thing and it's *just about* big enough for the car. You need to keep it in the happy part of the RPM range to make it get down the road. An auto and I'd probably hate the thing as much as I hated my ex's Sentra. (I wouldn't have bought it with an auto tho so...)

That Sentra with a manual and I probably would have driven it a lot longer 'cause it was a great little car. ...but the auto killed any kind of performance and mad ethe car 'a crapbox econo car.' The SE-R of the same car? Different story...

M

edited to add: I don't have to sit in traffic often, but when I do, I let the car creep along in 1st as much as possible and keep my foot off the clutch. Easier...

[GScot]

Manual all the way. I have a truck with an automatic because that has been the only choice for a long time now but my wife has never had anything but a manual. Right now her car is an older S5 with the V8, a newer supercharged V6 can be made faster with just some computer tweaks and a pulley but it can't match the V8 music. I've driven it in a lot city traffic this weekend and 1st is low enough it creeps if needed and no need for throttle to ease forward in 1st.

[ofcounsel]

Last month, I set out to purchase a Boxster. I was dead set on a manual (my prior "weekend" cars include two Miatas, a Z3, an M3 and a 987 Boxster... All were all manuals). Salesperson at the Porsche dealer asked me if I had ever tried out a PDK-equipped Porsche. I said: "No, I'm not interested." He said "why not just try try it? You just 'might' like it."

Long story short... I purchased a PDK-equipped Boxster.

[SPOKE]

Last month, I set out to purchase a Boxster. I was dead set on a manual (my prior "weekend" cars include two Miatas, a Z3, an M3 and a 987 Boxster... All were all manuals). Salesperson at the Porsche dealer asked me if I had ever tried out a PDK-equipped Porsche. I said: "No, I'm not interested." He said "why not just try try it? You just 'might' like it."

Long story short... I purchased a PDK-equipped Boxster.

That PDK tranny is pure magic! When I was shopping for my 911GTS I drove both manuals and PDK equipped cars. The one with PDK landed in the garage.
I can say though, the Porsche manuals that I tested were absolutely the best that I have ever driven....

[soulspinner]

cars (i have sporty ones): Manual
trucks: Automatic

this

[BikeNY]

That PDK tranny is pure magic! When I was shopping for my 911GTS I drove both manuals and PDK equipped cars. The one with PDK landed in the garage.
I can say though, the Porsche manuals that I tested were absolutely the best that I have ever driven....

I'll probably get a beatdown for this, but I don't understand buying a car like that without a manual transmission. I'm sure that PDK is a brilliant transmission, is faster to 60, faster at the track, more fuel efficient, safer, etc.

But, for me, part of the fun of a car like a Porsche is being as involved as possible in the driving experience. And that means operating the clutch by myself and shifting the car by myself. I guess for me it's more about the experience than being the fastest or most efficient. I also don't want to see the bill when something in that transmission breaks...

Disclaimer: I've never driven a modern Porsche with that transmission. In fact, the newest Porsche I've driven is a 1976 911!

Flame away!

[William]

I'll probably get a beatdown for this, but I don't understand buying a car like that without a manual transmission. I'm sure that PDK is a brilliant transmission, is faster to 60, faster at the track, more fuel efficient, safer, etc.

But, for me, part of the fun of a car like a Porsche is being as involved as possible in the driving experience. And that means operating the clutch by myself and shifting the car by myself. I guess for me it's more about the experience than being the fastest or most efficient. I also don't want to see the bill when something in that transmission breaks...

Disclaimer: I've never driven a modern Porsche with that transmission. In fact, the newest Porsche I've driven is a 1976 911!

Frame away!


No flame here, I get it.






William

[SPOKE]

I'll probably get a beatdown for this, but I don't understand buying a car like that without a manual transmission. I'm sure that PDK is a brilliant transmission, is faster to 60, faster at the track, more fuel efficient, safer, etc.

But, for me, part of the fun of a car like a Porsche is being as involved as possible in the driving experience. And that means operating the clutch by myself and shifting the car by myself. I guess for me it's more about the experience than being the fastest or most efficient. I also don't want to see the bill when something in that transmission breaks...

Disclaimer: I've never driven a modern Porsche with that transmission. In fact, the newest Porsche I've driven is a 1976 911!

Flame away!

I get it.....but with the PDK you can shift it manually with the paddles or the shifter.....just no clutch😉

[PQJ]

I get it.....but with the PDK you can shift it manually with the paddles or the shifter.....just no clutch������

Does it shift and drive like a manual sans clutch, or does it shift and drive like a car that has an auto transmission with a 'shifter' thrown in as an afterthought?

Of my 25 years behind the wheel of a car, a total of 39 months were spent without a manual tranny. My dream is a naturally aspirated manual 911. Hopefully it'll still be an option when I can finally get one!

[SPOKE]

Does it shift and drive like a manual sans clutch, or does it shift and drive like a car that has an auto transmission with a 'shifter' thrown in as an afterthought?

Of my 25 years behind the wheel of a car, a total of 39 months were spent without a manual tranny. My dream is a naturally aspirated manual 911. Hopefully it'll still be an option when I can finally get one!

Well kind of.....

[choke]

I'll probably get a beatdown for this, but I don't understand buying a car like that without a manual transmission.I totally get where you're coming from. When I first read those two posts about purchasing a Porsche w/o a manual I was trying to think of the appropriate response.....but I've come to the conclusion that there are some things in the world that I'm just not meant to understand.

[ERK55]

I get it.....but with the PDK you can shift it manually with the paddles or the shifter.....just no clutch😉

To each his own.
To me, no clutch = auto.

[ofcounsel]

I'll probably get a beatdown for this, but I don't understand buying a car like that without a manual transmission.

Disclaimer: I've never driven a modern Porsche with that transmission. In fact, the newest Porsche I've driven is a 1976 911!

No beatdown... I didn't understand either... Until I tried one. After a spirited 1/2 hour test drive, I was sold! The PDK is nice!

You should try one of the current 911's or Boxsters... Even the most base models are seriously impressive.

[ofcounsel]

That PDK tranny is pure magic! When I was shopping for my 911GTS I drove both manuals and PDK equipped cars. The one with PDK landed in the garage.
I can say though, the Porsche manuals that I tested were absolutely the best that I have ever driven....

Agreed!

[Mark McM]

To each his own.
To me, no clutch = auto.

Well, paddle shifters essentially have automatic clutch(es), but it doesn't have automatic shifting. This gives the driver complete control over the gear selection, while allowing the car to do what it is better at (because in most situations, the car is better at handling the clutch than a the human is).

[William]

Well, paddle shifters essentially have automatic clutch(es), but it doesn't have automatic shifting. This gives the driver complete control over the gear selection, while allowing the car to do what it is better at (because in most situations, the car is better at handling the clutch than a the human is).


Probably true in most cases, but irrelevant for people that want to handle the clutch.





William

[Mark McM]

Probably true in most cases, but irrelevant for people that want to handle the clutch.

That's perfectly fine, of course.

Can the same be said about mechanical vs. electronic derailleurs, for those who want to handle the derailleur?

[William]

That's perfectly fine, of course.

Can the same be said about mechanical vs. electronic derailleurs, for those who want to handle the derailleur?


I don't know, to me the comparison doesn't make sense. My bike doesn't have a clutch and bikes and cars are different riding machines. Just because I like a clutch/manual in my car, it doesn't compare to what I like on my bike.

Just my feeling.




William

[jlwdm]

I saw a Porsche 911 gt2 RS at lunch today (saw it in the owner's driveway yesterday). I think it would be a lot of fun to drive without a manual.

Jeff

[Gsinill]

In the context of older Porsche definitely relevant from a resale perspective.
Will be interesting to see how this pans out once the PDK models reach collector status.

[weisan]

.

[weisan]

,

[saab2000]

I’ve been in manuals nonstop since I first drove a car in 1983. A few autos mixed in as second cars but manuals since my first VW. Manuals are the friction shifters of the auto world. In some cases, excellent friction shifters like Simplex Retrofriction levers. But still ancient tech. I’m not sure I’ll miss them when I move on someday.

Currently driving a 2006 VW GTI I bought brand new off the lot in May of 2006. It’s fun once in a while to get into the 3500-5500 RPM range and zip around like that. Mostly it’s just a car and the clutching gets real old in bumper to bumper traffic.

I don’t understand the fetishization of manual transmissions any more than I understand the fetishization of roads that are unpaved. They’re both just old technologies.