interesting "half lug" design...(Waterford Content) - kinda PSA

[AngryScientist]

half PSA i guess, half interesting design. never seen a seat stay junction like this...

pretty good price for an [enormous] waterford F/F too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-Frame-700c-Waterford-RS-14-Steel-USA-Rare-Genuine-700c-W-Carbon-Fork-/132655286546?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WC4AAOSwDZtZ1tWd/s-l1200.jpg

[joosttx]

I guess the rationale is to have more flexibility with toptube angles???

[Bob Ross]

Think that's really the owner's name? Or does that bike belong to the King of the Fairies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlking)?

[unterhausen]

I guess the rationale is to have more flexibility with toptube angles???I think the rationale is that there are a lot of Waterfords with broken fastback stays. "Your seatpost was too small, not covered under warranty." Ever since I repaired one, I have a compulsion to look at them and the incidence is more than 50 percent so far.

But in general, that area needs to be reinforced and TIG is cheaper to build than fully lugged. That reinforcement looks like a stock casting

[OtayBW]

If this is just about reinforcement, Shirley there is a better way to do it. That thar is f-u-g-l-y....

[Kobe]

Think that's really the owner's name? Or does that bike belong to the King of the Fairies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlking)?

Or more likely blues man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_King

[ultraman6970]

Never understood tig in steel, anyways... custom work? hard to sell...

[alancw3]

i would think the real reason for that half lug design is a premed seat bolt attachment method which eliminates a hand made seat bolt attachment method. probably save labor time.

[Louis]

If this is just about reinforcement, Shirley there is a better way to do it. That thar is f-u-g-l-y....

I don't think it's bad, and given that it's a one-of for a huge frame size, sometimes you have to make a few compromises to go really big.

I think it's an elegant solution to an atypical problem.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE]half PSA i guess, half interesting design. never seen a seat stay junction like this...

pretty good price for an [enormous] waterford F/F too.

Been a while but I think that's a standard design with Richard's tig welded steel Waterford frames, to have a seat binder bolt/lug design rather than the 'standard' seat collar design. The yellow one is a Gunnar but same idea.

[oldpotatoe]

Never understood tig in steel, anyways... custom work? hard to sell...

With 'air hardened' steels like the TrueTemper Waterford uses or Reynolds, some Columbus, tig welding actually makes for a stronger joint. Older non AH tubes got weaker and why so much early steel was lugged, lower temp, easier on the tubes. Lighter frame also, easier to make custom, cheaper...

[ultraman6970]

Yeah but is not good look for the eye man :P

[Doug Fattic]

All semi-production or production makers look for ways to add features and at the same time speed up production. This is an another attempt. This look is not one I like.

As both a lug and tig builder I can say with confidence a tig frame is almost never as light as a lugged frame unless it is a true custom with the builder using some special tricks. They just look lighter. Somehow the joints have to be reinforced and some kind of seat binder added. Usually this means a very heavy wall head tube and perhaps an outside butted seat tube to take the stress of where the seat stays join and the seat post is clamped. And yes I have weighed each option carefully because non-builders are often skeptical. Lugs are not heavy at all - especially if the builder thins them to look better.

[ultraman6970]

Marginal gains eh? :P

[Mark McM]

As both a lug and tig builder I can say with confidence a tig frame is almost never as light as a lugged frame unless it is a true custom with the builder using some special tricks. They just look lighter. Somehow the joints have to be reinforced and some kind of seat binder added. Usually this means a very heavy wall head tube and perhaps an outside butted seat tube to take the stress of where the seat stays join and the seat post is clamped. And yes I have weighed each option carefully because non-builders are often skeptical. Lugs are not heavy at all - especially if the builder thins them to look better.

I'm confused by this. From what I've seen, most of the lightest tube sets typically are designed for TIG welding (often because they are air hardening), such as True Temper S3, Reynolds 953 & 853, and Columbus Spirit. Waterford (who this discussion is about) makes many lugged frames, yet their lightest frames (the 33 series) are TIG welded. I myself have a TIG welded frame that is just under 3 lb (True Temper S3, size 53). (Disclaimer: There may be many differences between TIG and lugged construction other than weight, so one may not always be more desireable than the other.)

[ultraman6970]

Well, from the picture looks like they brazed a lug in a air hardened steel tubeset and the thing suvived.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm confused by this. From what I've seen, most of the lightest tube sets typically are designed for TIG welding (often because they are air hardening), such as True Temper S3, Reynolds 953 & 853, and Columbus Spirit. Waterford (who this discussion is about) makes many lugged frames, yet their lightest frames (the 33 series) are TIG welded. I myself have a TIG welded frame that is just under 3 lb (True Temper S3, size 53). (Disclaimer: There may be many differences between TIG and lugged construction other than weight, so one may not always be more desireable than the other.)

Me too..at the shop we had a -33 Waterford with SR that was 16 pounds with DT rims and Ritchey cockpit..

[ColonelJLloyd]

Unless I'm missing something this isn't anything particularly crazy, though it does look odd. A true lug for that tube and angle combination does not exist off the shelf if one could even be made. The back side of the cluster features that reinforcement most likely because the owner insisted on or otherwise cajoled Waterford into fastback stays on that frame.

My custom is a big frame, but nowhere near that size, and my builder politely refused fastback stays because of my weight (195lb at the time), the fact that the frame was built for gravel and other off road use, and that fastback stay junctions are not as robust as other methods. Considering some of the washboard single track I've taken it on and how less-than-gentle I can be I'm sure he was right.